No reservations/Lisbon

[Riki]

eUvalj-ia28

[Contra Mundum]

That's the kind of place I'd love to visit. I tend to avoid the more popular tourist traps like Rome, Paris and London.

[2Cool]

The people he chose to interview were a bit too pessimist imo. Way too much talk about o Estado Novo. Mas fica a ser um bom video para promover Lisboa e Portugal à mesma. O marisco no princípio era de babar.

[Riki]

The people he chose to interview were a bit too pessimist imo. Way too much talk about o Estado Novo. Mas fica a ser um bom video para promover Lisboa e Portugal à mesma. O marisco no princípio era de babar.

I thought the same when I first saw the video.Also there's much more food In Lisbon or Portugal then seafood.Way more.
The way he was talking about It,the People that watches the video will think that seafood its our main meal,when its not true.Seafood its tapas for us.

[2Cool]

I thought the same when I first saw the video.Also there's much more food In Lisbon or Portugal then seafood.Way more.
The way he was talking about It,the People that watches the video will think that seafood its our main meal,when its not true.Seafood its tapas for us.

I agree. A good part of the video involved petiscos or little dishes. But this is only a 1 hour show so he can't show everything. I'm surprised he didn't show Pastéis de Nata though.

If you want you can check out his video on Porto where he attends a matança do porco. His video on the Azores was also pretty good.

[Vixen]

I really like his show. He´s going to be filming here in Rio soon, or did already. My friend´s husband was going to be his guide, in fact my friend even invited me to go to one of the filmings with me, at the last scene where everyone eats together. They either postponed the shoot or she forgot to call me. :(

[Incal]

The people he chose to interview were a bit too pessimist imo.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that a portuguese trademark? Being pessimistic I mean.

[2Cool]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that a portuguese trademark? Being pessimistic I mean.

It is a stereotype yes but it doesn't mean you need to fill the show with talks about Salazar and crap. That stuff ended over 35 years ago. Even the way he talked about Fado was pessimist he kept connecting it with Salazar. Fado isn't just about concepts of Saudades or sad stuff.

[Riki]

I agree. A good part of the video involved petiscos or little dishes. But this is only a 1 hour show so he can't show everything. I'm surprised he didn't show Pastéis de Nata though.

If you want you can check out his video on Porto where he attends a matança do porco. His video on the Azores was also pretty good.

Ja vi os dois.
Ver a matança do porco deixou-me saudades de quando visitava a uns anos os meus Avós em Tomar.
O mal e que logo de manha já estava um tanto ao quanto para o quentinho.

[2Cool]

Ja vi os dois.
Ver a matança do porco deixou-me saudades de quando visitava a uns anos os meus Avós em Tomar.
O mal e que logo de manha já estava um tanto ao quanto para o quentinho.

Uma coisa que os Portugueses sabem aproveitor bem é o porco lol. Come-se realmente tudo. O porco e o bacalhau devem ser os melhores amigos dos Portugueses :D

[Riki]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that a portuguese trademark? Being pessimistic I mean.

The ones always saying that we are pessimist's are:
Our Politicians.(Throwing sand in to our eyes.)
Foreigners.With no knowledge whatsoever about the Culture in question.

[Riki]

That's the kind of place I'd love to visit. I tend to avoid the more popular tourist traps like Rome, Paris and London.

Yeah. Holidays are supposed to be relaxing.I avoid some places and Months.
Being August one.

[Riki]

Uma coisa que os Portugueses sabem aproveitor bem é o porco lol. Come-se realmente tudo. O porco e o bacalhau devem ser os melhores amigos dos Portugueses :D

Porco,Bacalhau e o seu fiel companheiro o "tintaco"(Com cedilha):)

[Catrau]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that a Portuguese trademark? Being pessimistic I mean.

I really think that, in reality, that is a pure lie.
Many Portuguese stereotypes are incredibly tendentious. Ask me why, I will never know.
One thing is for sure, I'm not a pessimistic and neither are the people I have relations with or I talk to. There is a big difference between being pessimistic and being realistic and I think we must be realistic about life. Being too optimistic isn't good either, it's a false sense of happiness. Life and relations aren't always good, we pass through phases and we must understand that to react and come back.
In this program, I really didn't like the old regime stuff, it's rubbish to keep talking about that. It always came from a certain political quarter the same one that keeps saying that we are all moors, I wonder why apparently smart people keep saying that absolute stupidity... for god sake STOP IT, stop that shitty talk!

Anyway I have to say also that fado is starting to give me nausea, I'm starting to dislike it's stereotype because it is getting hostage of those same people. Only them understand fado, no one else does and so, we all have to understand fado the way they do, I imagine that they think it's the coolest way to do understand it, well I think fado is much more than that nostalgia rubbish. And it ain't no Moorish song either, that's the last one they invented to sell a few more stupid comedy books, written by brain damaged people. And sometimes we even have to pay all for shit like that via our taxes.

That's me with friends last wednesday afternoon having a few beers do we look different from any Spainiard or French? Do we look sad? are we crying over spoiled milk?? Live goes on, we aren't diffrent from the others, that's what I say when that sadness/nostalgy talk arises comming from some moor lover dude.

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/160520121293.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/160520121292.jpg

I like who I'm, I like who we are, otherwise I wouldn't

[Catrau]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that a portuguese trademark? Being pessimistic I mean.


Oh and by the way Incal, my post wasn't about you. It was about those foolish pre-concepts that are always on the minds of foreigners and moors wannabe.

[Rouxinol]

Wow, this is a very well done show about Lisbon, and the presenter is quite amazing. I've just got hungry after seeing this!

I find it natural that he focused a lot on seafood since this is about Lisbon, not Portugal as whole, and cervejarias/marisqueiras (seafood restaurants) are typical in Lisbon. Of course Lisbon, and Portugal as a whole, have a LOT more to offer beyond seafood and fish: we have an extremely rich cuisine, filled with variety and regional peculiarities in such a small territory.

As to fado music, its origins date back to the early 19th century and the influences on its genesis are still matter of debate. Either way, it's become typically lisbonite and part of the city's cultural landscape, so I don't care either if it's only Iberian-influenced or if it might have taken some aspects from the Portuguese colonies or whatever alike.

The whole talk on the Estado Novo and Salazar, well, maybe they talked about it because the presenter asked them about the Portuguese sentiment of today, or it just came out of the crisis we're living in much of Europe today. And in that light it cannot be dismissed: while northwestern Europe was growing bigger and bigger after the end of World War II much due to the injection of Marshall money and later immigrants from southern Europe flocking in to do the "dirty jobs", Portugal was stuck in an ultra-conservative corporativist regime that lasted for more than four decades and waging a more than a decade-long war in three fronts in Portuguese Africa. We've only experienced that sort of "age of growth" in the 90s due to EU capitals flowing in - but it's been a fictional one, with us having to renounce to many that we had - and should have developed - and now we're plunged in this Euro-scale crisis that seems to see no end in brief. This is stuck in people's minds and in our common conscience.

Anyway, overall good showcase on Lisbon's life and culture.

[Riki]

Wow, this is a very well done show about Lisbon, and the presenter is quite amazing. I've just got hungry after seeing this!

I find it natural that he focused a lot on seafood since this is about Lisbon, not Portugal as whole, and cervejarias/marisqueiras (seafood restaurants) are typical in Lisbon. Of course Lisbon, and Portugal as a whole, have a LOT more to offer beyond seafood and fish: we have an extremely rich cuisine, filled with variety and regional peculiarities in such a small territory.

As to fado music, its origins date back to the early 19th century and the influences on its genesis are still matter of debate. Either way, it's become typically lisbonite and part of the city's cultural landscape, so I don't care either if it's only Iberian-influenced or if it might have taken some aspects from the Portuguese colonies or whatever alike.

The whole talk on the Estado Novo and Salazar, well, maybe they talked about it because the presenter asked them about the Portuguese sentiment of today, or it just came out of the crisis we're living in much of Europe today. And in that light it cannot be dismissed: while northwestern Europe was growing bigger and bigger after the end of World War II much due to the injection of Marshall money and later immigrants from southern Europe flocking in to do the "dirty jobs", Portugal was stuck in an ultra-conservative corporativist regime that lasted for more than four decades and waging a more than a decade-long war in three fronts in Portuguese Africa. We've only experienced that sort of "age of growth" in the 90s due to EU capitals flowing in - but it's been a fictional one, with us having to renounce to many that we had - and should have developed - and now we're plunged in this Euro-scale crisis that seems to see no end in brief. This is stuck in people's minds and in our common conscience.

Anyway, overall good showcase on Lisbon's life and culture.

I would dispute that it is older.Why the researcher's forget Trovadorismo?What was its evolution?Is there any connection with Fado?
What happen to trovadorismo?
All Music everywhere has foreigner influences.Who ever say otherwise does not know much about Music.

[Rouxinol]

I would dispute that it is older.Why the researcher's forget Trovadorismo?What was its evolution?Is there any connection with Fado?
What happen to trovadorismo?
All Music everywhere has foreigner influences.Who ever say otherwise does not know much about Music.

I think there's a connection. Compare medieval cantigas de amigo or cantigas de amor to fado lyrics and their subject and sentiment are not much different.

[2Cool]

I think the idea that many Portuguese are pessimists might have to do with its history and the older generation. Some of it might have to do with concepts such as Sebastiasnismo, o Quinto Império or the idea that Portugal is a shadow of it's former self (post-Iberian Union). it is not uncommon to see people romanticize the Portuguese Empire. In terms of the older generation, if you go to villages, many older women still wear only black due to their husband's death and speak if what I perceive to be in a big of a depressive manner. I have examples of this in my own family. But I don't think this pessimist mentality applies to the current generation (maybe some you guys who live in Portugal can comment on this). But given Portugal's recent history (19th century onwards) it is not too difficult to understand why a Portuguese person would be more of a realist or pessimist than an optimist. The Portuguese government has been good at one thing: consistently screwing over the Portuguese population and the last century or two haven't been so kind to Portugal and its people.

[Rouxinol]

I think the idea that many Portuguese are pessimists might have to do with its history and the older generation. Some of it might have to do with concepts such as Sebastiasnismo, o Quinto Império or the idea that Portugal is a shadow of it's former self (post-Iberian Union). it is not uncommon to see people romanticize the Portuguese Empire. In terms of the older generation, if you go to villages, many older women still wear only black due to their husband's death and speak if what I perceive to be in a big of a depressive manner. I have examples of this in my own family. But I don't think this pessimist mentality applies to the current generation (maybe some you guys who live in Portugal can comment on this). But given Portugal's recent history (19th century onwards) it is not too difficult to understand why a Portuguese person would be more of a realist or pessimist than an optimist. The Portuguese government has been good at one thing: consistently screwing over the Portuguese population and the last century or two haven't been so kind to Portugal and its people.

Well, those women you talk about are now in their late 70s, 80s or 90s. In a generation or so that's going to disappear. That's much of a rarity even now, and very restricted to very old people, more often pertaining to lower classes which have been raised in extremely devout catholic environments, and often in small villages away from the big cities.

I agree that it's not difficult to understand the pessimism. I think that the loss of Brazil out of the empire was the last straw in Portugal's golden age. Probably we are able to speak of two golden periods: the first one being the expansion towards east, establishing trade with India, and the second one being the exploration of Brazil, which after the decline of the Portuguese presence in Asia - superseded by the Dutch and then the British - became our main source of wealth and power. The transference of the Portuguese king D. João VI and its court from Portugal to Brazil due to Napoleon's armies invasion, leaving Portugal at the hands of a regency, was the last straw which paved the way to Brazil's independence and Portuguese steep decline in the world stage.

[Damião de Góis]

Carminho and Lobo Antunes were both being depressive :D

[Riki]

I think it's more realistic then pessimistic.
Realistic because we have no hope in our "leaders" ,and it's not new.It's almost as If we can predict the future.
So better to be realistic, and confront live like we have been doing for a long time.
That is why you do not see violence on the streets at this moment.Contrary to the Greek's,who are indeed being pessimistic about their future.

[Damião de Góis]

I think it's more realistic then pessimistic.
Realistic because we have no hope in our "leaders" ,and it's not new.It's almost as If we can predict the future.
So better to be realistic, and confront live like we have been doing for a long time.
That is why you do not see violence on the streets at this moment.Contrary to the Greek's,who are indeed being pessimistic about their future.

They were exagerating in my opinion. Carminho talking about sadness and Lobo Antunes talking about no hope for the future... it's not like i see sad and hopeless faces in Lisbon... the streets will be filled again on St. António's night.

[Catrau]

The transference of the Portuguese king D. João VI and its court from Portugal to Brazil due to Napoleon's armies invasion, leaving Portugal at the hands of a regency, was the last straw which paved the way to Brazil's independence and Portuguese steep decline in the world stage.

You may be right about this but as I said before we have to stop it. It's nonsense and we (our generation) have in our hands the task of making this stop because it pushes us down. We have the obligation to show our sons and daughters that we aren't different from the other Europeans, make them recognize who we are and teach them that life is to be lived.

Out past glories are just that, it is past and we must understand our past, not to feel miserably nostalgic about it but to understand our mistakes and try to avoid them in the present and in the future. This is what I have to say to the pessimistic and for me it is like a doctrine for life, for the future.

I'm very proud of what we have been, not only in the last centuries of wealth but since ever. Sooner or later, that wealth had to come to an end, we were an empire and empires rely on slavery, once that finished our resources weren't enough to maintain us as a prime roller. What's the problem about that? Every champion will give away one day. We do not need to rule the world as once, we just need to create our own wealth. Have you ever been to Denmark?? it's a resource less place, yet... they live well, they have huge salaries, they pay the double of our taxes, housing is awfully expensive but they still keep enough and the huge amount of money circling creates wealth and generates a healthy economy, that's what we need, we do not need to be the US.

The program was about Lisbon and I don't feel anything special about it, I'm not from there, I prefer bagpipes to fado but I felt that those rubbish talks about nostalgia, sadness and defeat weren't sufficiently referred, if at all, as typical of the people from Lisbon, I got the impression that they passed as typical of the Portuguese and I do not accept that. The people from Lisbon must stop act as if they represent the rest of the Portuguese, because they don't. If the people from the capital really feel defeated and sad that way, maybe that explains a lot about the ordeal we've been passing through in the last 2 centuries, may the capital should change to a more realistic and wealthy place. Our former capital Coimbra would be good choice, in my humble opinion see, I have sense of humor.

Coimbra:
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra1.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra2.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra3.jpg

Académica Coimbra
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra4.png


Académica Coimbra (Football)
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra5.jpg


Académica Coimbra (Basketball)
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra6.jpg

Académica Coimbra (Rugby)
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra7.jpg

Universidade de Coimbra (Since 1290(!))
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra8.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra9.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra10.jpg

Queima das Fitas, Serenata Monumental + jewel of the romanic
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra11.jpg

U2 (twice)
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra12.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra13.jpg

The Rolling Stones
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra14.jpg

Madonna
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Coimbra15.jpg

Not bad for a province little town.

[Damião de Góis]

The idea that fado is about sadness and nostalgia is nonsense:

mbtIax9gSKQ

QkAkbOyFg5I

It's about many things...

And Catrau, i don't think people in Lisbon feel depressed and nostalgic as a rule like it was said in the video...

[Catrau]

The idea that fado is about sadness and nostalgia is nonsense:


It's about many things...

And Catrau, i don't think people in Lisbon feel depressed and nostalgic as a rule like it was said in the video...

I think everything you just wrote is the absolute true.

And I do like Ana Moura and Camané and Mariza and Mafalda Arnauth, they sing it freely without effort. What I dislike are those guys in "caves" forcing their voices and showing the "white of their eyes" to tourists... I'm sorry I prefer 1000 times to listen to students singing in the "Serenata Monumental"

f3WGttZdksg

This is much more fun:
481ruHFbCiI

Desta vez estou mesmo à rasca
Vou-me pirar de mansinho
Não volto àquela tasca
Não bebo mais traçadinho
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Riki]

The idea that fado is about sadness and nostalgia is nonsense:

mbtIax9gSKQ

QkAkbOyFg5I

It's about many things...

And Catrau, i don't think people in Lisbon feel depressed and nostalgic as a rule like it was said in the video...

Of course,some form's of fado will be sad some wont.Just like some form's of rock are sad and some aren't.
Then People because we sing a sad form of fado assume that we are also sad and ...
Funny because fado must be about 10% of our Musical Culture.

[2Cool]

^^

This made me think of something. Portuguese people need to be proud of their country and the products made in Portugal. I've noticed often times that theirs this mentality that what other Europeans do is better than us. Just for a quick example, sometimes you'll see Portuguese clothing or shoe companies adopt an Italian name to make it seem like the quality is better. That bothers me. You always hear foreigners talk about great things about Portugal almost as if they appreciate the country more than Portuguese people do themselves. Portugal should do a better job at promoting it's assets and products (not just the wine!).

I don't know if you guys ever encountered people like this.

[Damião de Góis]

^^

This made me think of something. Portuguese people need to be proud of their country and the products made in Portugal. I've noticed often times that theirs this mentality that what other Europeans do is better than us. Just for a quick example, sometimes you'll see Portuguese clothing or shoe companies adopt an Italian name to make it seem like the quality is better. That bothers me. You always hear foreigners talk about great things about Portugal almost as if they appreciate the country more than Portuguese people do themselves. Portugal should do a better job at promoting it's assets and products (not just the wine!).

I don't know if you guys ever encountered people like this.

Everyone i know likes our country very much. However, people wish our country was in better shape, that's pretty much it.

[Riki]

Catrau:

The program was about Lisbon and I don't feel anything special about it, I'm not from there, I prefer bagpipes to fado but I felt that those rubbish talks about nostalgia, sadness and defeat weren't sufficiently referred, if at all, as typical of the people from Lisbon, I got the impression that they passed as typical of the Portuguese and I do not accept that. The people from Lisbon must stop act as if they represent the rest of the Portuguese, because they don't. If the people from the capital really feel defeated and sad that way, maybe that explains a lot about the ordeal we've been passing through in the last 2 centuries, may the capital should change to a more realistic and wealthy place. Our former capital Coimbra would be good choice, in my humble opinion see, I have sense of humor.

That's typical from someone that it is not from Lisbon.
I as a Lisboner,have special feelings for the all of our Country,City's,Town's etc.
I bet you would like an Iberian Union.

[Catrau]

Catrau:


That's typical from someone that it is not from Lisbon.
I as a Lisboner,have special feelings for the all of our Country,City's,Town's etc.
I bet you would like an Iberian Union.

Of course it's typical, you as a Lisboner don't understand that the others don't like to be portrayed as Lisboners, that's it. Because you make others assume things that are yours and most of the country feels nothing about. I'm not saying that I do not like Lisboners or their culture what I want is you to recognize that I have my own and it's nothing about Fado or moor rubbish.

About the Iberic Union thing: First, I do not understand what one thing has to do with the other. Second, I'm not an Iberist I'm a patriot and my homeland includes places, people and culture that nowadays are in Portugal and in Spain, after all, like it or not, we all have been Leonese.

[Riki]

^^

This made me think of something. Portuguese people need to be proud of their country and the products made in Portugal. I've noticed often times that theirs this mentality that what other Europeans do is better than us. Just for a quick example, sometimes you'll see Portuguese clothing or shoe companies adopt an Italian name to make it seem like the quality is better. That bothers me. You always hear foreigners talk about great things about Portugal almost as if they appreciate the country more than Portuguese people do themselves. Portugal should do a better job at promoting it's assets and products (not just the wine!).

I don't know if you guys ever encountered people like this.

When you say Portugal you are including the People.I have to tell you If It was not for the "normal People".Our Culture,Products or whatever would be dead by now.Everywhere around the World you see Portuguese Emigrants divulging what's Portuguese.Proud to be Portuguese.
About foreigner names on products,that's not surprising.The owners of most of our product's are foreigner's, courtesy of our Government that do not deserve the People they "have".

[Rouxinol]

You may be right about this but as I said before we have to stop it. It's nonsense and we (our generation) have in our hands the task of making this stop because it pushes us down. We have the obligation to show our sons and daughters that we aren't different from the other Europeans, make them recognize who we are and teach them that life is to be lived.

Well Catrau I wish I was half as optimistic as you but I just can't. I am more of a pessimist maybe. I can't see no opportunities in crisis nor pathways to success and entrepreneurship in unemployment, as our prime-minister apparently does. And honestly I don't see much happiness in the streets of Lisbon lately, besides the inherent happiness of young students who have no bills to pay nor jobs to keep and whose primary concern is to get drunk in beer over the weekend. I as many Portuguese would like to see this country regaining its place and shape, but I don't think that will ever happen unless a major shift in the world order we now are living in happens and we eventually seize the opportunity for a renewal - otherwise, we'll keep being used as cannon fodder by others.

[Riki]

Of course it's typical, you as a Lisboner don't understand that the others don't like to be portrayed as Lisboners, that's it. Because you make others assume things that are yours and most of the country feels nothing about. I'm not saying that I do not like Lisboners or their culture what I want is you to recognize that I have my own and it's nothing about Fado or moor rubbish.

About the Iberic Union thing: First, I do not understand what one thing has to do with the other. Second, I'm not an Iberist I'm a patriot and my homeland includes places, people and culture that nowadays are in Portugal and in Spain, after all, like it or not, we all have been Leonese.

I don't know where do you guys take this ideas from.
I'm a Lisboner,born and raised.Yet I never heard such thing.

Of course you have you're own It's called Portuguese.But that's different for not liking a certain kind of Music.I don't like all kind of fado.

The constant "fight" of the City's of outside Lisbon against It It's rather Spanish.Specially from Lisbon upward's.
You cannot deny.As I have been every where around Portugal.And in most of the places I was treated like a foreigner and with suspicion.The only ones that al ways "wanted" me was the Women.As soon as they knew I was from Lisbon they would be al over me.
And then the Irony.Indeed I was born In Lisbon,but my Family as of most of the Lisboners are from other regions.

[Catrau]

Well Catrau I wish I was half as optimistic as you but I just can't. I am more of a pessimist maybe. I can't see no opportunities in crisis nor pathways to success and entrepreneurship in unemployment, as our prime-minister apparently does. And honestly I don't see much happiness in the streets of Lisbon lately, besides the inherent happiness of young students who have no bills to pay nor jobs to keep and whose primary concern is to get drunk in beer over the weekend. I as many Portuguese would like to see this country regaining its place and shape, but I don't think that will ever happen unless a major shift in the world order we now are living in happens and we eventually seize the opportunity for a renewal - otherwise, we'll keep being used as cannon fodder by others.

I'm not an optimistic person, I'm cautious and mainly realistic. I understand all that you said. I do not know where I will be within 6 months. I hope I'll be here in my beloved hometown. But I do understand what you are saying. I work for some years now and all my formation was directed to a very special job. Now I don't know if I can keep it. My biggest fear is not to shift and start from the zero, my fear is to not have the opportunity to start again. For me going abroad by need is a supreme humiliation but... a man is where he must be.
Really this situation hasn't brought me down yet and I pretend to continue cautiously sailing looking at the coast, I hope I'll succeed and I hope that shift you're talking about happens and give us a boost. But first of all, we must abandon that nostalgia/sadness childish attitude and always walk head up.

[Catrau]

I don't know where do you guys take this ideas from.
I'm a Lisboner,born and raised.Yet I never heard such thing.

Of course you have you're own It's called Portuguese.But that's different for not liking a certain kind of Music.I don't like all kind of fado.

The constant "fight" of the City's of outside Lisbon against It It's rather Spanish.Specially from Lisbon upward's.
You cannot deny.As I have been every where around Portugal.And in most of the places I was treated like a foreigner and with suspicion.The only ones that al ways "wanted" me was the Women.As soon as they knew I was from Lisbon they would be al over me.
And then the Irony.Indeed I was born In Lisbon,but my Family as of most of the Lisboners are from other regions.

Well I've travelled all over Portugal too and do that almost every year. I can recognize differences in culture, landscape and architecture, but I usually like them all because I can contextualize it. I love to listen to Alentejanos or Minhotos speaking the way they do and they must be encouraged to keep those differences, nowadays being different is a major positive differentiation factor. This is not about economy (but it could be) since Lisbon keeps most of the funds, it's not about girls because they don't care if you're from Lisbon or from the Algarve, I do not chose my friends because of their provenance, this is only about those small differences that I talked about and before I'm Portuguese, something that I do not permit to be questioned, I'm from central Portugal from the south of the Beiras and first of all I'm Nabantino, that's who I'm and where my preferences go, so forgive me not to put Lisbon first, you can do that, you're a Lisboner. Forgive me, I'm not. And that is the point, You do not understand why the others put their roots first, it's a kind of superiority complex.

And the more you keep saying that you are moors, the more the other will step away: You think that it's your ancestry, well, it's not mine for sure. I do not cherish the ancestral enemies of my people, the ones that we fought for centuries and with whom I have no cultural or physical relations or affiliations.

[Riki]

Well I've travelled all over Portugal too and do that almost every year. I can recognize differences in culture, landscape and architecture, but I usually like them all because I can contextualize it. I love to listen to Alentejanos or Minhotos speaking the way they do and they must be encouraged to keep those differences, nowadays being different is a major positive differentiation factor. This is not about economy (but it could be) since Lisbon keeps most of the funds, it's not about girls because they don't care if you're from Lisbon or from the Algarve, I do not chose my friends because of their provenance, this is only about those small differences that I talked about and before I'm Portuguese, something that I do not permit to be questioned, I'm from central Portugal from the south of the Beiras and first of all I'm Nabantino, that's who I'm and where my preferences go, so forgive me not to put Lisbon first, you can do that, you're a Lisboner. Forgive me, I'm not. And that is the point, You do not understand why the others put their roots first, it's a kind of superiority complex.
And the more you keep saying that you are moors, the more the other will step away: You think that it's your ancestry, well, it's not mine for sure. I do not cherish the ancestral enemies of my people, the ones that we fought for centuries and with whom I have no cultural or physical relations or affiliations.

There's nothing to forgive.As I was not offended nor mentioned nothing about It.Why you keep "pressing the same key.I do not get It.

Again I did not mentioned that In any of my Post's.
And you are distorting every thing.

This is what I said:
"That's typical from someone that it is not from Lisbon.
I as a Lisboner,have special feelings for the all of our Country,City's,Town's etc.

I'm Portuguese first,born in Lisbon,Iberian,European.I opposed to you don't feel any special feeling for one region but for my Nation,Culture,People as a whole.

I know that my ancestry is not Moor.Nor do I understand what makes you say that.And where other's see superiority complexes other's see inferiority complexes.

[Catrau]

There's nothing to forgive.As I was not offended nor mentioned nothing about It.Why you keep "pressing the same key.I do not get It.

Again I did not mentioned that In any of my Post's.
And you are distorting every thing.

This is what I said:
"That's typical from someone that it is not from Lisbon.
I as a Lisboner,have special feelings for the all of our Country,City's,Town's etc.

I'm Portuguese first,born in Lisbon,Iberian,European.I opposed to you don't feel any special feeling for one region but for my Nation,Culture,People as a whole.

I know that my ancestry is not Moor.Nor do I understand what makes you say that.And where other's see superiority complexes other's see inferiority complexes.

This is only a discussion, obviously we have different points of view. My special feeling go towards my home place I didn't say that I dislike the rest of Portugal I do like, a lot, I make hundreds of km just to photograph a detail: a multiple archivolt entrance of a small Romanic church in Guimarães, a cromelec near Évora in the Alentejo, the incredible wild beauty of Cabo Sardão in the Sudoeste Alentejano, a biologic park in Trás-os-Montes, etc. but I can tell you that if I would rank the regions and the places in a decrescendo order, the first one would be my own but the second one wouldn't be Lisbon, and it wouldn't be the fifth either maybe the sixth one. I avoid to go to Lisbon, I'm not a big town fan since I can have almost everything a Lisboner do and even better. My hometown came as 11th in 152 towns in quality of life, something Lisbon couldn't match. I know that there are important and beautiful things in Lisbon but I prefer others, away from there. It's not about the people. You know it's hard to discuss tastes, you have yours and I have mine.

About the moorish thing, you should know that the biggest fans of that stuff are some Lisboners, I believe it's a minority but they make themselves heard at different levels: TV, radio, papers, books... etc. Anyone understands that it's a stupid thing, even my grandmother (over 80) gets annoyed about that but I don't see other Lisboners making the necessary contradictory discussion, it means that they accept it... well I’ll do that job because I have to defend other Portuguese from that stuff. You can call it a crusade if you want.

[Rouxinol]

I have always thought that people from northern Portugal, especially from Porto and around, started that off, calling Lisbonites and people from Lisbon and below Moors, in the way of a joke based on the historical facts of the Reconquista. Never heard of anyone identifying as Moor, other than by matter of joke.

[Riki]

This is only a discussion, obviously we have different points of view. My special feeling go towards my home place I didn't say that I dislike the rest of Portugal I do like, a lot, I make hundreds of km just to photograph a detail: a multiple archivolt entrance of a small Romanic church in Guimarães, a cromelec near Évora in the Alentejo, the incredible wild beauty of Cabo Sardão in the Sudoeste Alentejano, a biologic park in Trás-os-Montes, etc. but I can tell you that if I would rank the regions and the places in a decrescendo order, the first one would be my own but the second one wouldn't be Lisbon, and it wouldn't be the fifth either maybe the sixth one. I avoid to go to Lisbon, I'm not a big town fan since I can have almost everything a Lisboner do and even better. My hometown came as 11th in 152 towns in quality of life, something Lisbon couldn't match. I know that there are important and beautiful things in Lisbon but I prefer others, away from there. It's not about the people. You know it's hard to discuss tastes, you have yours and I have mine.

About the moorish thing, you should know that the biggest fans of that stuff are some Lisboners, I believe it's a minority but they make themselves heard at different levels: TV, radio, papers, books... etc. Anyone understands that it's a stupid thing, even my grandmother (over 80) gets annoyed about that but I don't see other Lisboners making the necessary contradictory discussion, it means that they accept it... well I’ll do that job because I have to defend other Portuguese from that stuff. You can call it a crusade if you want.

Mas Catrau.Isso toda a gente sabe.Eu estou a falar de Pessoas normais,e não políticos ou outras entidades por eles influenciados.Que tal como dizes são uma pequena maioria.Eu não acredito que tu penses que os lisboetas andam por Lisboa e por todo o lado a dizer que são mouros.Isso e mais la para cima.Esses e que fazem questão de dizer que os do Sul são Mouros.
Maior parte da minha educação foi obtida em Lisboa,trabalhei cerca de 10 anos em Lisboa,vivo em Lisboa a 36 anos.Como disse as únicas vezes que ouvi algo parecido foi da boca de Pessoas de fora de Lisboa.
Achas mesmo que vais encontrar alguém em Lisboa que se queira associar com mouros?

[Catrau]

I have always thought that people from northern Portugal, especially from Porto and around, started that off, calling Lisbonites and people from Lisbon and below Moors, in the way of a joke based on the historical facts of the Reconquista. Never heard of anyone identifying as Moor, other than by matter of joke.

I thought that arose not as a joke of north towards south but because of that persistence at some intellectual levels and the necessary contradictory came from north who joked about that and it was later used by those ultra fans from the northern teams and especially by FC Porto president.

I can tell you that I come across a lot of people that sincerely believes that stuff that's how far things went, even in school some teachers tend to point out that aspect of Portuguese. You should take a look at some 5th grade history books. All that stuff comes from Lisbon. Not from the Algarve.

[Catrau]

Achas mesmo que vais encontrar alguém em Lisboa que se queira associar com mouros?

Espero bem que seja uma minoria, mas vou dizer-te uma grande verdade, no que me diz respeito, acontece-me com frequência conhecer pessoas de Lisboa que passam por aqui, são amigos de conhecidos e amigos meus e nas nossas conversas de gente crescida esses temas aparecem. Eu não acho as pessoas passem a vida a dizer que são mouras mas olha que quando o assunto das diferenças culturais ou coisa do género aparece a conversa deles vai sempre dar "naquilo", parece que levaram uma injecção atrás da orelha.

Por isso é que eu cada vez me parece mais que não são apenas uns intelectualóides de esquerda, cada vez me parece mais que a coisa está entranhada.

[Rouxinol]

I thought that arose not as a joke of north towards south but because of that persistence at some intellectual levels and the necessary contradictory came from north who joked about that and it was later used by those ultra fans from the northern teams and especially by FC Porto president.

I can tell you that I come across a lot of people that sincerely believes that stuff that's how far things went, even in school some teachers tend to point out that aspect of Portuguese. You should take a look at some 5th grade history books. All that stuff comes from Lisbon. Not from the Algarve.

Like what? That history books in our schools give more focus to the Moorish presence in the Iberian peninsula rather than to the pre-Roman tribes that lived here? Well, yes, they do, but maybe that's because we know more about the Moors than we know about those pre-Roman ancestors of ours - even though they are the bulk of our ethnicity. And, well, yes, that just came out as perfect to the so-called political correct establishment to brainwash us a bit, telling us from an early age at school that we have to be receptive to foreigners and other cultures and so on because we've been a crossroad of different cultures, ranging from Celtiberians to Romans, from Germanic tribes to Moors. But honestly I've never heard of nor came across anyone wanting or claiming to be a Moor - at most, cultural nihilist intellectuals and politicians claiming that we have a lot of Moorish in us, so that we must accept and be receptive of non-European immigrants and their cultures, like the hordes that came from Africa and Brazil.

[Riki]

Espero bem que seja uma minoria, mas vou dizer-te uma grande verdade, no que me diz respeito, acontece-me com frequência conhecer pessoas de Lisboa que passam por aqui, são amigos de conhecidos e amigos meus e nas nossas conversas de gente crescida esses temas aparecem. Eu não acho as pessoas passem a vida a dizer que são mouras mas olha que quando o assunto das diferenças culturais ou coisa do género aparece a conversa deles vai sempre dar "naquilo", parece que levaram uma injecção atrás da orelha.

Por isso é que eu cada vez me parece mais que não são apenas uns intelectualóides de esquerda, cada vez me parece mais que a coisa está entranhada.

Bom.Ja não digo nada.Se calhar eu sempre me dei com as Pessoas certas.
Mas o problema e que não se pode negar que existe sim uma pequena influencia moura na cultura PORTUGUESA e Ibérica.
Pois seriamos hipócritas.Mas com isto não quer dizer que vou agora por essa insignificante influencia num pedestal.Ate porque acredito que e das influencias mais curtas que temos.
Felizmente gosto muito de fado, não gosto quando associam o fado a árabes muito menos a pretos,como também já ouvi.Mas não e por isso que o vou deixar de ouvir.Ate como já disse noutro "post" o fado para mim representa uma pequena parcela da nossa Cultura e considero o Fado como uma canção do estilo Neoclássico com influencias do trovadorismo e sons Ibéricos.
Para mim a melhor representação da Cultura Portuguesa esta sim nos ranchos,concertinas,Gaitas de foles,pifaros,cavaquinhos,ferrinhos,etc.
A pior de todas foi quando eu li algures que o sentimento da Saudade foi herdado dos árabes.

[Riki]

]I thought that arose not as a joke of north towards south but because of that persistence at some intellectual levels and the necessary contradictory [/B]came from north who joked about that and it was later used by those ultra fans from the northern teams and especially by FC Porto president.

I can tell you that I come across a lot of people that sincerely believes that stuff that's how far things went, even in school some teachers tend to point out that aspect of Portuguese. You should take a look at some 5th grade history books. All that stuff comes from Lisbon. Not from the Algarve.

Don't think so.Its the affinities with the neighbours(Galaicos) that makes them think that they are different from the moors "the invicta".
I bet,that if there was some kind of a poll in Portugal.The majority of the Northerner's would vote to became Spanish.
But there's much affinities for the Galaicos in the South as well.Which is possible with out offending the rest of Country mates.
Pinto Da Costa e igual ao Alberto Jardim. São bons e para incentivar o ódio.
Tal e qual uns muçulmanos extremistas a pregar o ódio.

[Catrau]

Like what? That history books in our schools give more focus to the Moorish presence in the Iberian peninsula rather than to the pre-Roman tribes that lived here? Well, yes, they do, but maybe that's because we know more about the Moors than we know about those pre-Roman ancestors of ours - even though they are the bulk of our ethnicity. And, well, yes, that just came out as perfect to the so-called political correct establishment to brainwash us a bit, telling us from an early age at school that we have to be receptive to foreigners and other cultures and so on because we've been a crossroad of different cultures, ranging from Celtiberians to Romans, from Germanic tribes to Moors. But honestly I've never heard of nor came across anyone wanting or claiming to be a Moor - at most, cultural nihilist intellectuals and politicians claiming that we have a lot of Moorish in us, so that we must accept and be receptive of non-European immigrants and their cultures, like the hordes that came from Africa and Brazil.
It’s more or less that. If your point of view is correct and it’s not only about the teachers themselves and it’s about politicians too, well, that’s even worse. I have trouble to understand that, what’s the point? Thinking about others before thinking about ourselves using in that process our own history and culture and kids? Who the hell might think about such a stupid thing? Now that you bring the politicians, you may be very right about it. I have a friend who is an history teacher in the secondary and once was enrolled in the process of writing a new history manual for the 5th grade he his no Moorish lover, in fact I even visited with him the Citânia de Briteiros and the Citânia de Sanfins and we pretend to keep visiting more, he his a big fan of proto Portugal, he would never, in his own will, present only a 2 page information with a draw of a Celtic village in the middle for our ancestors and a hole chapter for the Moorish occupation, next time I’ll talk to him about it. Maybe there are rules they have to follow for the making and writing of the manual, of course they have to follow what the ministry of education dictates as the matters of study.

But I do know a few History teachers, one of them was a former neighbor, that are viscerally against the teaching of those matters and they are big moorish lovers, they even go to Morocco in vacation.. for god sake. Fortunately it’s just a matter of taste and maybe of money too. Anyway my wife teaches Geography in the secondary school and she must have a close professional relation with history teachers, as you might know, she says that, mostly, they are unbearable, she can’t stand their attitude, she says that it’s really a trend, not something isolated. I hope you’re not history teachers, anyway, at least, I know one that has the same ideas as I do but he can be really nasty in some situations, because I know he does. I think that they don't feel respected because, let's be fair, anyone with education can be an history teacher, so they need to "talk loud" to impose themselves, this is just me wandering and speculating on this issue. :D:D

If they do this to teach our kids that they must be receptive to other people from different parts of the world, me as a father, I do not want them to do it, I’ll do that myself at home, they must focus on what they are supposed to do, teach the history of our people and tell the kids who they really are and take them in study to the Citânia de Briteiros as I do myself. All the rest is rubbish.

We shouldn’t say that we have more information for talking about muslim occupation than we have about proto-Portugal, there isn’t much about muslisms either but there is enough information to write a chapter for a 5th grade history manual on both issues, it doesn’t need many pages but it’s very odd to erase that important part of us and then, at home, we need to teach the kids the right way.
I also understand that proto Portugal is getting far and far away from historians hands, they do not have much to say about it, archeologists and geneticists know much more about it than historians but they can read about it and learn, that’s what I do and I’m not even an history teacher. That’s funny that you do not find people with that moorish love tendency, I always find one. I can tell you that I had a couple with whom I shared a lot of talks that used to go every summer for the Atlas to live among the berbers. There is nothing wrong about it if they like it, but of course if they went there it was because somehow they felt connected to them. I have another friend that I know from my early days in university, he even works with me and open regularly his mouth to say he's a moor. In this case I think that it's also for opposing the north that he dislikes and for his profound "hate" to everything related to FC Porto. People mix things a bit but have no problem to state that they feel like moors, even if they look more French than Portuguese.

You’ll start paying more attention to this issue and if you enforce a few conversations on this matter, you’ll have a surprise, that’s for sure.

[Catrau]

Mas o problema e que não se pode negar que existe sim uma pequena influencia moura na cultura PORTUGUESA e Ibérica.
Pois seriamos hipócritas.Mas com isto não quer dizer que vou agora por essa insignificante influencia num pedestal.Ate porque acredito que e das influencias mais curtas que temos.
.

Olha eu sinceramente não vejo nada, pelo menos onde vivem a maior parte dos portugueses, exceptuando Lisboa e Santarém que foram os grandes bastiões mouros do norte. Palavras, resumem-se a alguns topónimos arabizados dos nomes celtas pré-existentes e a algumas profissões. Há à volta de 1000 palavras Portuguesas no japonês e vê láa importância que isso tem nesse idioma. Não há qualquer tipo de herança arquitetónica, não falamos árabe, não temos a mesma religião, não nos parecemos com berberes, pode haver gente lá que se parece connosco mas é preciso ver que há alguma proximidade e que muitos Ibéricos foram expulsos para lá há 500 anos, parece que os vestígios genéticos do norte de África no português foram adquiridos bem antes das invasões muçulmanas, estamos longe do centro de poder na península etc, etc, etc, quando me mostrarem algo mais do que a igreja de Mértola e o Ribat al Rihana podem-me convencer de qualquer coisita. Acho isto tudo dos muçulmanos super enfatizado o que para nós nem é nada bom porque puxa o povo para baixo há gente que não quer ser europeia para ser norte-africana (fantástico!) e dá azo a que sejamos mesmo algo ostracizados e aqui posso estar a exagerar um pouco mas é a palavra que me surge. A Europa não gosta de muçulmanos e já viste o que os brasileiros aprendem de nós na escola?? eu acho aquilo altamente depreciativo. É obvio que eles não sabem nem sonham, no dia em que perceberem que somos a "alma mater" celta, às tantas ainda nos vêm dar beijos na boca (salvo seja). Este amor ao muçulmano não me parece grande estratégia, pelo contrário. Os espanhóis, não lhe falem nisto e eles é que têm lá aqueles vestígios todos.




A pior de todas foi quando eu li algures que o sentimento da Saudade foi herdado dos árabes.

Dassss :D:D:D:D:D, pois olha que há por aí muito boa gente que é isso mesmo que acha.

[Catrau]

Don't think so.Its the affinities with the neighbours(Galaicos) that makes them think that they are different from the moors "the invicta".
I bet,that if there was some kind of a poll in Portugal.The majority of the Northerner's would vote to became Spanish.
But there's much affinities for the Galaicos in the South as well.Which is possible with out offending the rest of Country mates.
Pinto Da Costa e igual ao Alberto Jardim. São bons e para incentivar o ódio.
Tal e qual uns muçulmanos extremistas a pregar o ódio.

Nah, the North is more Portuguese than Portugal itself. We all came from there. You aren't posing the problem the right way. It's not about becaming Spaniards it's about a new entity but not subjected to Madrid or Lisbon. If you make a poll asking if the Portuguese want to become Spainiards, the answer will be NO. But if you ask them if they would like to join the Sapinards in a new country around 35% will say YES and many of those live in Lisbon. That's what the last polls have said.

Em relação ao Piiintooo da Cooosta e ao Alberto João, tens toda a razão, foi uma excelente comparação. :thumbs up

Puta que pariu os árabes!

[Rouxinol]

It’s more or less that. If your point of view is correct and it’s not only about the teachers themselves and it’s about politicians too, well, that’s even worse. I have trouble to understand that, what’s the point? Thinking about others before thinking about ourselves using in that process our own history and culture and kids? Who the hell might think about such a stupid thing? Now that you bring the politicians, you may be very right about it. I have a friend who is an history teacher in the secondary and once was enrolled in the process of writing a new history manual for the 5th grade he his no Moorish lover, in fact I even visited with him the Citânia de Briteiros and the Citânia de Sanfins and we pretend to keep visiting more, he his a big fan of proto Portugal, he would never, in his own will, present only a 2 page information with a draw of a Celtic village in the middle for our ancestors and a hole chapter for the Moorish occupation, next time I’ll talk to him about it.

Don't you know our politicians? It doesn't matter if they're left or right-wing on these matters, to be quite honest. Our prime-minister, a right-winger, has an African wife from Bissau and brags about that calling himself an "Africanist". And I've heard so many others on the sphere of politics claiming that the Portuguese cannot be racist as, say, the Germans, because we've had the Moors living in here. Not that I am a racist or endorse racism, but I don't accept that excuse for not being one. Of course this whole story on the Moors, as we well know, is extremely hyperbolized to meet cultural and political ends.


Maybe there are rules they have to follow for the making and writing of the manual, of course they have to follow what the ministry of education dictates as the matters of study.

Well, compulsory education in Portugal is extremely centralized by the state. It is the government, via the Ministry of Education, which determines school programs, and teachers and school directors have very little margin to change it - even private schools. So there it is, it's not always about history teachers, it is about the programs, elaborated by the government, that they have to teach.


I also understand that proto Portugal is getting far and far away from historians hands, they do not have much to say about it, archeologists and geneticists know much more about it than historians but they can read about it and learn, that’s what I do and I’m not even an history teacher.

Well, I wouldn't rest so assured of that on archeologists and geneticists. They are always eager to find/make up connections with non-Europeans to advance their agenda of cultural dissolution. Last night on SIC Notícias I heard an archeologist saying that we, in southern Europe, should let north Africans to get closer to us, because they've been here before and they are willing now more than ever to "communicate" with us once again. He seems to not even acknowledge that present-day north Africans are not even the same ones of those days.


You’ll start paying more attention to this issue and if you enforce a few conversations on this matter, you’ll have a surprise, that’s for sure.

Well, maybe, but for the most part people all over are very proud of the Reconquista and that is the basis of the foundation of Portugal. No Reconquista, no Portugal.

As for Spain: "De Espanha nem bons ventos nem bons casamentos". I don't want nothing to do with Spain.

[Vasconcelos]

You cannot deny.As I have been every where around Portugal.And in most of the places I was treated like a foreigner and with suspicion.The only ones that al ways "wanted" me was the Women.As soon as they knew I was from Lisbon they would be al over me.
And then the Irony.Indeed I was born In Lisbon,but my Family as of most of the Lisboners are from other regions.

I have no idea what kind of people you've met, but if that was the case I'm pretty sure you were very unlucky. :confused:

I have northern roots, including in the Invicta cidade do Porto, but I was born in Lisbon and I have never, ever been treated poorly, or differently, because of it (however I don't wave a flag saying that's where I live as I feel somewhat detatched from the city and it's culture).

[Riki]

Olha eu sinceramente não vejo nada, pelo menos onde vivem a maior parte dos portugueses, exceptuando Lisboa e Santarém que foram os grandes bastiões mouros do norte. Palavras, resumem-se a alguns topónimos arabizados dos nomes celtas pré-existentes e a algumas profissões. Há à volta de 1000 palavras Portuguesas no japonês e vê láa importância que isso tem nesse idioma. Não há qualquer tipo de herança arquitetónica, não falamos árabe, não temos a mesma religião, não nos parecemos com berberes, pode haver gente lá que se parece connosco mas é preciso ver que há alguma proximidade e que muitos Ibéricos foram expulsos para lá há 500 anos, parece que os vestígios genéticos do norte de África no português foram adquiridos bem antes das invasões muçulmanas, estamos longe do centro de poder na península etc, etc, etc, quando me mostrarem algo mais do que a igreja de Mértola e o Ribat al Rihana podem-me convencer de qualquer coisita. Acho isto tudo dos muçulmanos super enfatizado o que para nós nem é nada bom porque puxa o povo para baixo há gente que não quer ser europeia para ser norte-africana (fantástico!) e dá azo a que sejamos mesmo algo ostracizados e aqui posso estar a exagerar um pouco mas é a palavra que me surge. A Europa não gosta de muçulmanos e já viste o que os brasileiros aprendem de nós na escola?? eu acho aquilo altamente depreciativo. É obvio que eles não sabem nem sonham, no dia em que perceberem que somos a "alma mater" celta, às tantas ainda nos vêm dar beijos na boca (salvo seja). Este amor ao muçulmano não me parece grande estratégia, pelo contrário. Os espanhóis, não lhe falem nisto e eles é que têm lá aqueles vestígios todos.



Dassss :D:D:D:D:D, pois olha que há por aí muito boa gente que é isso mesmo que acha.

Mas eu concordo contigo.Agora o facto e que existe uma mínima influencia como tu dizes.Mas, isso não quer dizer que ande por ai a vangloriar os mouros(O nome por si,da-me arrepios).E sou contra propaganda a seu favor.Alias eu ate acho que quem o faz e burro(Tens razão ao referir os Celtas,apesar de preferir CeltIbero,pois também não sinto nenhuma afinidade com Irlandeses e afins.)E porque?O simples facto de a Ibéria ser Celta por cerca de 3.000 anos diz tudo.



Tem a ver com as primeiras migrações parece-me.
Mas que ao que me parece e herança da tribo Iberus.

[Damião de Góis]

Eu não sei que livros de história vocês tinham, mas o meu saltava dos romanos para a reconquista. Dizia que tinham andado por cá povos germânicos e mouros mas nunca em muito detalhe.

Eu não sei o nome de nenhuns reis germânicos ou mouros.

[Vasconcelos]

Eu não sei que livros de história vocês tinham, mas o meu saltava dos romanos para a reconquista. Dizia que tinham andado por cá povos germânicos e mouros mas nunca em muito detalhe.

Eu não sei o nome de nenhuns reis germânicos ou mouros.

Pois, os meus também, foi basicamente " ah estiveram uns barbaros e depois vieram os mouros e conquistaram isto" passando para "no ano 1000 e tal veio o Conde D. Henrique" e depois é só Afonso Henriques lol

[Rouxinol]

Na minha escola primária e no 5.º Ano lembro-me bem de termos falado dos chamados "vestígios árabes" na península ibérica, como p.e. a arquitectura mourisca e a sua herança na arquitectura vernácula de regiões como o Algarve, ou das palavras de origem mourisca que entraram no léxico português, por isso foi um bocadinho mais do que apenas uma referência ao período mouro na península ibérica. Nomes de reis mouros ou germânicos julgo, de facto, que não faziam parte dos programas.

[Catrau]

Na minha escola primária e no 5.º Ano lembro-me bem de termos falado dos chamados "vestígios árabes" na península ibérica, como p.e. a arquitectura mourisca e a sua herança na arquitectura vernácula de regiões como o Algarve, ou das palavras de origem mourisca que entraram no léxico português...



Esses vestígios são as chaminés e os terraços:
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Aoteia.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Algarve/297271_2375584387531_1188234743_2852614_2095574152 _n.jpg

Em relação às casas brancas existem em toda a bacia do Mediterrâneo e provavelmente são mais antigas que a própria existência de muçulmanos.

Em relação às palavras, provavelmente não existem 50 palavras de raiz árabe (descontando a toponímia), não há nomes de origem árabe e não há apelidos de origem árabe, acho que isto verdadeiramente diz tudo.


Mas eu concordo contigo.Agora o facto e que existe uma mínima influencia como tu dizes.Mas, isso não quer dizer que ande por ai a vangloriar os mouros(O nome por si,da-me arrepios).E sou contra propaganda a seu favor.Alias eu ate acho que quem o faz e burro(Tens razão ao referir os Celtas,apesar de preferir CeltIbero,pois também não sinto nenhuma afinidade com Irlandeses e afins.)E porque?O simples facto de a Ibéria ser Celta por cerca de 3.000 anos diz tudo.


Olha que em relação a este assunto, eu tenho a sensação que haverá mais do que parece.. Cocordo contigo quando dizes que não nos identificamos com eles mas há aqui coisa... eu conheço vários Irlandeses, vivem vários em Tomar (o barbudo com quem estou numa foto dos primeiros posts é Irlandês) e conheço o dono de um dos bares Irlandeses de Salamanca. Parece crescer entre eles um assumir que têm as raizes (ou boa parte delas) aqui. Os Irlandeses e Portugueses que se conhecem bem, tendem a referir que há uma espécie de abordagem à vida muito identica, não sei como raio isso se avalia mas parece qualquer coisa que tem a ver com uma tal veia poética... enfim. O que eu sei é que na minha terra toca-se muita gaita de foles e tambor e que no dia do haloween Irlandês temos aqui o "dia do bolinho" que é basicamente a mesma coisa e vem da mesma tradição pagã do culto ao fim do verão, início do inverno e veneração dos mortos. Alguma coisa haverá. Olha, cenas destas mouriscas é que não há cá nenhuma.

Por falar nisso, deixo-vos aqui um livrinho que comprei na semana passada. Trata-se de uma carta arqueológica do município de Tomar são 350 paginas que relatam cerca de 75000 anos de vestígios de povoamento. desde os Neardertais que abundavam por aqui até às invasões francesas, são cerca de 150 estações arqueológicas com milhares de achados. De tudo isto o Doutor Carlos Batata, eminente arqueólogo Nabantino, discipulo de Jorge Alarcão e contemporâneo de João Zilhão, Luís Osterbeek e Salete da Ponte, dedica ao período muçulmano menos de uma página e de todos os achados a única coisa árabe encontrada foi 1 moeda datada de 711. Espectáculo, aí está, numa cidade a 300 km do rio Douro, portanto, de acordo com o que toda a gente diz, em pleno "muçulmanistão" foi tudo o que se encontrou. No entanto há ruinas e vestígios de uma cidade romana com forum, milhares de moedas, esculturas, pontes, estradas e calçadas. Chamava-se Sellium e foi descrita por Plínio "o velho" (grande honra), numerosos vestígios da cidade Sueva e depois Visigótica chamada Nabância (nome derivado da deusa Celta Naba, deusa das águas e dos rios) a nossa padroeira é uma goda que deu nome a Santarém etc, etc, etc, Onde raio andarão esses benditos muçulmanos?? Há quem diga que a roda de rega existente num jardim no centro da nossa cidade é árabe, só quem nunca foi ao museu romano de Mérida é que não percebe que antes dos árabes já os romanos eram os mestres da engenharia hidráulica... hehehe, que palhaçada.

Aqui está o Livro do Carlos Batata com um magnífico sestércio do tempo de Augusto na capa, encontrado nas ruínas da velha Sellium que foi abandonada quase 400 anos.
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Algarve/Batata2.jpg

E aqui a famosa página onde quem sabe, se liberta de preconceitos e diz o tem que ser dito.
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Algarve/Batata1.jpg

Roda típica do Rio Nabão todos os anos religiosamente restaurada de acordo com as técnicas ancestrais e posta funcionar com pompa e circunstância.
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Roda.jpg


Eu não sei que livros de história vocês tinham, mas o meu saltava dos romanos para a reconquista. Dizia que tinham andado por cá povos germânicos e mouros mas nunca em muito detalhe.
Eu não sei o nome de nenhuns reis germânicos ou mouros.

Alex para satisfazer a tua curiosidade, aqui está o tudo o que o livro do 5º anos de História de Portugal da Porto Editora tem para ensinar aos miúdos quem são: 2 míseras páginas.
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Algarve/Proto_Portugal.jpg

Agora antes tem :
2 páginas para o Neolítico
2 páginas para as sociedades agropastoris

Depois tem:
2 páginas para os povos do mediterrâneo (Gregos, fenícios e Cartagineses) que têm nenhuma importância para nós, alguma para os espanhóis.
14 páginas para o Império Romano
12 páginas para a ocupação muçulmana
14 páginas para a formação de Portugal

Acham isto normal???

[Vasconcelos]

lol o mapa tem os Lusitanos no local errado. "gente alta e cabelos e olhos claros"..fantástico, maior palhaçada de sempre, nem acredito que é isto que se ensina aos futuros homens de amanhã.

[Riki]

Esses vestígios são as chaminés e os terraços:
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Aoteia.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Algarve/297271_2375584387531_1188234743_2852614_2095574152 _n.jpg

Em relação às casas brancas existem em toda a bacia do Mediterrâneo e provavelmente são mais antigas que a própria existência de muçulmanos.

Em relação às palavras, provavelmente não existem 50 palavras de raiz árabe (descontando a toponímia), não há nomes de origem árabe e não há apelidos de origem árabe, acho que isto verdadeiramente diz tudo.



Olha que em relação a este assunto, eu tenho a sensação que haverá mais do que parece.. Cocordo contigo quando dizes que não nos identificamos com eles mas há aqui coisa... eu conheço vários Irlandeses, vivem vários em Tomar (o barbudo com quem estou numa foto dos primeiros posts é Irlandês) e conheço o dono de um dos bares Irlandeses de Salamanca. Parece crescer entre eles um assumir que têm as raizes (ou boa parte delas) aqui. Os Irlandeses e Portugueses que se conhecem bem, tendem a referir que há uma espécie de abordagem à vida muito identica, não sei como raio isso se avalia mas parece qualquer coisa que tem a ver com uma tal veia poética... enfim. O que eu sei é que na minha terra toca-se muita gaita de foles e tambor e que no dia do haloween Irlandês temos aqui o "dia do bolinho" que é basicamente a mesma coisa e vem da mesma tradição pagã do culto ao fim do verão, início do inverno e veneração dos mortos. Alguma coisa haverá. Olha, cenas destas mouriscas é que não há cá nenhuma.

Por falar nisso, deixo-vos aqui um livrinho que comprei na semana passada. Trata-se de uma carta arqueológica do município de Tomar são 350 paginas que relatam cerca de 75000 anos de vestígios de povoamento. desde os Neardertais que abundavam por aqui até às invasões francesas, são cerca de 150 estações arqueológicas com milhares de achados. De tudo isto o Doutor Carlos Batata, eminente arqueólogo Nabantino, discipulo de Jorge Alarcão e contemporâneo de João Zilhão, Luís Osterbeek e Salete da Ponte, dedica ao período muçulmano menos de uma página e de todos os achados a única coisa árabe encontrada foi 1 moeda datada de 711. Espectáculo, aí está, numa cidade a 300 km do rio Douro, portanto, de acordo com o que toda a gente diz, em pleno "muçulmanistão" foi tudo o que se encontrou. No entanto há ruinas e vestígios de uma cidade romana com forum, milhares de moedas, esculturas, pontes, estradas e calçadas. Chamava-se Sellium e foi descrita por Plínio "o velho" (grande honra), numerosos vestígios da cidade Sueva e depois Visigótica chamada Nabância (nome derivado da deusa Celta Naba, deusa das águas e dos rios) a nossa padroeira é uma goda que deu nome a Santarém etc, etc, etc, Onde raio andarão esses benditos muçulmanos?? Há quem diga que a roda de rega existente num jardim no centro da nossa cidade é árabe, só quem nunca foi ao museu romano de Mérida é que não percebe que antes dos árabes já os romanos eram os mestres da engenharia hidráulica... hehehe, que palhaçada.

Aqui está o Livro do Carlos Batata com um magnífico sestércio do tempo de Augusto na capa, encontrado nas ruínas da velha Sellium que foi abandonada quase 400 anos.
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Algarve/Batata2.jpg

E aqui a famosa página onde quem sabe, se liberta de preconceitos e diz o tem que ser dito.
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Algarve/Batata1.jpg

Roda típica do Rio Nabão todos os anos religiosamente restaurada de acordo com as técnicas ancestrais e posta funcionar com pompa e circunstância.
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Roda.jpg



Alex para satisfazer a tua curiosidade, aqui está o tudo o que o livro do 5º anos de História de Portugal da Porto Editora tem para ensinar aos miúdos quem são: 2 míseras páginas.
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Algarve/Proto_Portugal.jpg

Agora antes tem :
2 páginas para o Neolítico
2 páginas para as sociedades agropastoris

Depois tem:
2 páginas para os povos do mediterrâneo (Gregos, fenícios e Cartagineses) que têm nenhuma importância para nós, alguma para os espanhóis.
14 páginas para o Império Romano
12 páginas para a ocupação muçulmana
14 páginas para a formação de Portugal

Acham isto normal???

Tenho que dizer que uma das coisas que me surpreendeu em Inglaterra foram precisamente os Irlandeses e ate Escoceses.Como foi fácil de me relacionar com eles e como muitas das nossas atitudes e maneira de ver as coisas são parecidas.Posso te dizer que os meus amigos quando estou em Inglaterra são apenas Irlandeses e Escoceses.Com os Ingleses e bom dia e boa tarde e pronto.E ainda bem não gosto da atitude de maior parte deles.
Alias, mesmo fisicamente somos parecidos.(Tirando alguns que são umas torres)


Isso não.No meu tempo não era assim.12 paginas?Tarefa árdua para arranjar material suficiente para preencher as paginas.
Então as nossas origens não são ensinadas?
Calamidade.Como já disse,aceito a pequeníssima influencia CULTURAL moura.
Mas assim não.Isto e distorcer a verdade.O mais importante não e ensinado.
Fosgase.Vou perguntar a minha Sobrinha ,que esta parece-me no ano 10 ou 11,o que e que lhe andam a ensinar.E que ainda por cima vive no Algarve,mais depressa fica confusa.

[Riki]

lol o mapa tem os Lusitanos no local errado. "gente alta e cabelos e olhos claros"..fantástico, maior palhaçada de sempre, nem acredito que é isto que se ensina aos futuros homens de amanhã.

Ate e uma vergonha.
Pois se mostrares o livro a um Historiador(Sem influencias)de certeza daria uma grande gargalhada.

[Ausência Forçada]

Tudo foi propaganda, sobretudo desde o 25 de abril de 74, quem veio para o poder e toda a pseudo elite quis projectar um Portugal multicultural e apenas por isso, o mito do al-andalus e as 3 culturas etc.. é propagado, assim como o residual (!) sangue berbere caucasoide em Portugal é sobrevalorizado, assim como meia dúzia de palavras têm sido sobrevalorizadas por esses multiculturalistas, isto por motivos políticos, era o que nos queriam impingir. Ou então e também, para para fragilizar o nosso sentimento identitário, ou para evitar que os portugueses tenham um sentimento gregário, mais que natural de defesa da estirpe, para que fiquem impávidos e serenos enquanto lhes enfiavam á força com milhares de africanos em toda a nação portuguesa.

É engraçado, sobretudo, porque historicamente Portugal, não só não se submeteu aos mouros, como ainda por cima NASCEU CONTRA OS MOUROS, Portugal, em termos histórico-políticos, representa precisamente A DERROTA DA MOIRAMA.

Mais, isso não era suficiente e por isso FOMOS ESMAGAR OS MOUROS além-mar, primeiro no norte de África, depois na Índia.

[Riki]

Tudo foi propaganda, sobretudo desde o 25 de abril de 74, quem veio para o poder e toda a pseudo elite quis projectar um Portugal multicultural e apenas por isso, o mito do al-andalus e as 3 culturas etc.. é propagado, assim como o residual (!) sangue berbere caucasoide em Portugal é sobrevalorizado, assim como meia dúzia de palavras têm sido sobrevalorizadas por esses multiculturalistas, isto por motivos políticos, era o que nos queriam impingir. Ou então e também, para para fragilizar o nosso sentimento identitário, ou para evitar que os portugueses tenham um sentimento gregário, mais que natural de defesa da estirpe, para que fiquem impávidos e serenos enquanto lhes enfiavam á força com milhares de africanos em toda a nação portuguesa.

É engraçado, sobretudo, porque historicamente Portugal, não só não se submeteu aos mouros, como ainda por cima NASCEU CONTRA OS MOUROS, Portugal, em termos histórico-políticos, representa precisamente A DERROTA DA MOIRAMA.

Mais, isso não era suficiente e por isso FOMOS ESMAGAR OS MOUROS além-mar, primeiro no norte de África, depois na Índia.


Vale a pena ver a partir do minuto 4.

6Ss-SfkBYZU

[Rouxinol]

Tenho que dizer que uma das coisas que me surpreendeu em Inglaterra foram precisamente os Irlandeses e ate Escoceses.Como foi fácil de me relacionar com eles e como muitas das nossas atitudes e maneira de ver as coisas são parecidas.Posso te dizer que os meus amigos quando estou em Inglaterra são apenas Irlandeses e Escoceses.Com os Ingleses e bom dia e boa tarde e pronto.E ainda bem não gosto da atitude de maior parte deles.
Alias, mesmo fisicamente somos parecidos.(Tirando alguns que são umas torres

Como por exemplo? Estive na Escócia e em Inglaterra, como "turista", e notei que os escoceses são geralmente mais bem-dispostos, expansivos e comunicativos do que os ingleses. Os ingleses são mais reservados e "nariz empinado".

[Riki]

Como por exemplo? Estive na Escócia e em Inglaterra, como "turista", e notei que os escoceses são geralmente mais bem-dispostos, expansivos e comunicativos do que os ingleses. Os ingleses são mais reservados e "nariz empinado".

Precisamente.Conversam de maneira mais aberta tal como nos.
São mais directos tal como nos.Os Ingleses não o dizem na cara,mas dizem-no por detrás(São queixinhas).E difícil de explicar.Mas da na verdade a sensação de uma similaridade entre nos.E o engraçado e que eles também o reconhecem.
As vezes na brincadeira digo-lhes que algo esta mal,pois eles deviam ser parecidos aos Ingleses.A resposta costuma ser,que os "Ingleses são estrangeiros nas Ilhas Britânicas e que ainda por cima se dizem ser Britons.":p

[Damião de Góis]

Eu considero-os todos iguais.

[Riki]

Eu considero-os todos iguais.

Eu percebo-te.Alex.
Mas olha que são bem diferentes.Eu pensava o mesmo ate vir parar a Inglaterra.

[Damião de Góis]

Eu percebo-te.Alex.
Mas olha que são bem diferentes.Eu pensava o mesmo ate vir parar a Inglaterra.

Não posso falar de comportamento ou cultura porque não os conheço... mas falando de aspecto físico e tendo por base inúmeros jogadores de futebol, então é muito difícil fazer distinções entre eles.

[Riki]

Não posso falar de comportamento ou cultura porque não os conheço... mas falando de aspecto físico e tendo por base inúmeros jogadores de futebol, então é muito difícil fazer distinções entre eles.

Muitos são de baixa estatura,cabelo castanho,olhos castanhos certas feições etc.
O que me espanta e que de todos os que eu conheço que se dizem Irlandeses penso que só um ou dois e que tem cabelo ruivo.
O comportamento.Deixa ver se consigo dar-te um exemplo.
Epa,e um pouco como se falasses com alguém conhecido,tal e a facilidade e transparência.

[Atlantic Islander]

My mother was grossed out by them eating horse heart.

[Atlantic Islander]

sC73r8vcnIM

His trip to Lisbon.

[Catrau]

We already have a thread with this one.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49243

[Damião de Góis]

Merged :)

[Atlantic Islander]

The only visit to Portugal that I can't seem to find is his first one, he mentioned it in the Azores trip - he said he went to Northern Portugal and wanted to try the kale soup, but it was completely different than what he was used to and when he mentioned that it was different they said "that's not Portuguese, that's Azores".

Doesn't seem like it was a no reservations trip, but maybe for another show?

[Damião de Góis]

The only visit to Portugal that I can't seem to find is his first one, he mentioned it in the Azores trip - he said he went to Northern Portugal and wanted to try the kale soup, but it was completely different than what he was used to and when he mentioned that it was different they said "that's not Portuguese, that's Azores".

Doesn't seem like it was a no reservations trip, but maybe for another show?

You mean the ones in Porto?

Pm_NksqzDA4

64HMX81qs2s

[Atlantic Islander]

You mean the ones in Porto?

Pm_NksqzDA4

64HMX81qs2s

Hmm, I'm not certain, he said the Kale was puréed.