Would you support prohibition of alcohol?

[Yaroslav]

I am 100% against alcohol and believe the drink is straight from hell.

I want to see what others think.

[Vixen]

Never. People who don´t know how to drink are the real problem.
Prohibition doesn´t work. It failed during the depression and the "War on Drugs" is a total disaster. People who really want to drink or use drugs will always find a way to do so, whether legal or not.

[Ibericus]

I personally don't drink, but it's a tradition of thousands of years in Europe, like Wine, and should not be prohibited.

[Sikeliot]

Of course not. What kind of Mediterranean European would I be if I did?

[Yaroslav]

I personally don't drink, but it's a tradition of thousands of years in Europe, like Wine, and should not be prohibited.

I see you have a cross as your avatar.

"Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps." Deuteronomy 32:33

[heyaitsme]

NOOOOO definitely not! haha not in a million years!

[Leadchucker]

Add a few more cars onto your train of thought and see were we go from there Some why's, wherefores and so on will help. I'm neither for or against and am a former comsumer of the spirit by not by my choice.

[Vixen]

I see you have a cross as your avatar.

"Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps." Deuteronomy 32:33



"Take this, all of you, and eat of it:
for this is my body which will be given up for you.
Take this, all of you, and drink from it:
for this is the chalice of my blood,
the blood of the new and eternal covenant.
which will be poured out for you and for many
for the forgiveness of sins .
Do this in memory of me."


Sound familiar?
Do you think he was drinking water?


The Words of Institution (also called the Words of Consecration) are words echoing those of Jesus himself at his Last Supper that, when consecrating bread and wine.

[Piparskeggr]

Alcohol is not the problem.

Stupid use thereof is the problem.

I know, having formerly been a stupid user.

[Yaroslav]

Sound familiar?
Do you think he was drinking water?

That doesn't justify drinking alcohol. It was simply ritual.

Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty.

Proverbs 23:29-30 - Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes.

Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.

Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable

Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

Isaiah 5:11-12 - Woe to those who get up early to drink and stay up late at night to get drunk.

Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit.

Isaiah 22:12-13 - The Israelites choose to drink; their future looks hopeless to them.

Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.

Isaiah 28:1 - God pronounces woe on the drunkards of Ephraim.

Isaiah 28:3 - Proud drunkards shall be trodden down.

Isaiah 28:8 - Drinkers’ tables are covered with vomit and filth.

Daniel 5:4 - Drinking wine was combined with praising false gods.

Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.

Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.

Joel 1:5 - Drunkards awake to see God’s judgment.

Amos 2:8 - Unrighteous acts of Israel included the drinking of wine which had been taken for the payment of fines.

Nahum 1:10 - The drunkards of Nineveh will be destroyed by God.

Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.

Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.

Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return.

Luke 12:45 - Christ warned against drunkenness.

Luke 21:34 - Drunkenness will cause a person not to be ready for the Lord’s return.

Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality.

1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.

1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God

Galatians 5:21 - Acts of the sinful nature, such as drunkenness, will prohibit a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit. (wine makes you filled with evil instead)

1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.

And there are many more.

A Christian cannot justify drinking.

[StonyArabia]

Yes it's a deadly poison and one of the roots of evil. Just imagine no more car accidents, no more deadly fights in bars/clubs, no more date rapes, and the list goes on. Alcohol also does not do anyone good, and it's found in places of abmoniation should speak enough of it.

[Vixen]

A Christian cannot justify drinking.

I see you adhere to Biblical Christianity. Most Christians (myself incuded) do not take things so literally. You are free to interpret the Bible as strictly as you wish, but others should not be compelled to do the same.

[Sikeliot]

My dad takes the Bible so literally.. but he only takes literally the parts of his choosing.

[Yaroslav]

I see you adhere to Biblical Christianity. Most Christians (myself incuded) do not take things so literally. You are free to interpret the Bible as strictly as you wish, but others should not be compelled to do so as well.

Why even call yourself Christian if you don't believe in teachings of Christ? I don't see the point?

[2Cool]

Nope. Remember what happened when they US tried to ban alcohol? Yeah...

[Vixen]

Yes it's a deadly poison and one of the roots of evil. Just imagine no more car accidents, no more deadly fights in bars/clubs, no more date rapes, and the list goes on. Alcohol also does not do anyone good, and it's found in places of abmoniation should speak enough of it.
Drunk driving is only one of the many causes of car accidents.
Violent people will fight and kill each other even when sober.
The date rape drug is called Rohypnol or GHB, not alcohol.
There are many proven health benefits to drinking wine (in moderation).

[Yaroslav]

Nope. Remember what happened when they US tried to ban alcohol? Yeah...

Organized crime, which doesn't even compare to the death count which drunk driving brings today.

[2Cool]

Organized crime, which doesn't even compare to the death count which drunk driving brings today.

People would still drink.

You think making drugs illegal has made people stop taking drugs? That must be why the drug cartels are making so much money....

All drugs should be decriminalized anyways.

edit:

For the curious:

http://i.imgur.com/QuBJn.png

[Vixen]

Why even call yourself Christian if you don't believe in teachings of Christ? I don't see the point?

Not all things in the Bible are the teachings of Christ. They are the teachings of Christ as interpreted by man and then compiled and altered during hundreds of years. The Old Testament doesn´t even have anything to do with Christ.

[Yaroslav]

People would still drink.

You think making drugs illegal has made people stop taking drugs? That must be why the drug cartels are making so much money....

All drugs should be decriminalized anyways.

They would, but there would be virtually no drunk driving. Most of drunk driving happens when people go home from bars or restaurants, with prohibition most bars would be closed so that would easily reduce the drunk driving. Not to mention a lot of people that drink are not willing to get involved in organized crime, and many that would would keep it very secret so that would also reduce drunk driving.

I disagree that all drugs should be decriminalized, only marijuana should be legal because it is the only healthy drug.

[StonyArabia]

Drunk driving is only one of the many causes of car accidents.

Well here it's the main cause of car accidents of course there are others. Since why we are bombarded don't drink and drive ads on radio and tv.


Violent people will fight and kill each other even when sober.

That might be so, but it Alcohol make the situation even worse.


The date rape drug is called rohypnol, not alcohol.

Alcohol is also used for that purpose.


There are many proven health benefits to drinking wine (in moderation).

Indeed it has benefit but the harms outweigh any benefit given. Well other Alcoholic drinks never do anyone any good like beer or worse like Vodka and various types of hard liquor.

[Yaroslav]

Not all things in the Bible are the teachings of Christ. They are the teachings of Christ as interpreted by man and then compiled and altered during hundreds of years. The Old Testament doesn´t even have anything to do with Christ.

Bible is the Word of God. Jesus is God manifested in human flesh. You sound like you believe Jesus was merely a prophet? :rolleyes: Jesus quoted Old Testament MANY times.

Of course modern Bible versions are all corrupt and altered, the only Bible that can be trusted is 1611 King James Bible.

[GeistFaust]

I think humans have a natural tendency to overdo it, which will lead them to naturally misuse alcohol, and the only way to curb this lower instinct is to cleanse and purify themselves from the most part from the drink. That said not everyone is going to act that way, and there are also some positive things to drinking in terms of health. There was a prohibition of alcohol in the U.S., and it did not work out that well, which led to the Temperance movement becoming more popular.


There were people like Cary Nation who would pick up axes and then go into shops, bars, and businesses shattering their supply of alcohol. I just don't think this is an adequate to go about it, and just because alcohol does cause evil things does not mean it does not do positive thing as well. Most things with a positive element to it is going to have the potential of being misused and turned into an evil affair.

I believe that it should be sold only during certain hours of the day, and that it should not be served to a person unless they are guaranteed to have an individual who will not be drinking driving them home. That said the sell of alcohol does a great deal of business for certain enterprises, and thus it should not be outlawed, because there would be a great loss in what some business enterprises base their sales and consumerism off of.

[Vixen]

Well here it's the main cause of car accidents of course there are others. Since why we are bombarded don't drink and drive ads on radio and tv.



That might be so, but it Alcohol make the situation even worse.



Alcohol is also used for that purpose.



Indeed it has benefit but the harms outweigh any benefit given. Well other Alcoholic drinks never do anyone any good like beer or worse like Vodka and various types of hard liquor.

I think my main point is that bad and stupid people will do bad and stupid things regardless of if they drink or not. Shouldn´t we make cars illegal too?
We can´t outlaw something just because some people don´t know how to use it. All of the things you listed are because of alcohol abuse.

[Yaroslav]

I think my main point is that bad and stupid people will do bad and stupid things regardless of if they drink or not. Shouldn´t we make cars illegal too?
We can´t outlaw something just because some people don´t know how to use it. All of the things you listed are because of alcohol abuse.

Make alcohol illegal and automatically that would reduce abuse rate (alcoholics would be arrested). Also, why would you drink alcohol in the first place? What is the point? :confused:

[Vixen]

Make alcohol illegal and automatically that would reduce abuse rate (alcoholics would be arrested).

No, more like alcoholics would be forced to drink in secret and this would further fuel the unhealthiness of their addiction.

[Yaroslav]

No, more like alcoholics would be forced to drink in secret and this would further fuel the unhealthiness of their addiction.

This is a GOOD thing. It's about public safety not alcoholic's health. :rolleyes:

[Vixen]

This is a GOOD thing. It's about public safety not alcoholic's health. :rolleyes:

So, in reality you don´t even care about prohibiting alcohol and and improving people´s quality of life at all, you just want a sham.
You know people will continue to drink in secret (both alcoholics and social drinkers), you just want a moralistic, hypocritical society where people pretend to be good and virtuous.

[Yaroslav]

So, in reality you don´t even care about prohibiting alcohol and and improving people´s quality of life at all, you just want a public sham.

The alcoholic would drink regardless if it's legal or illegal. If it's legal he's still digging his own grave. If it's illegal at least the public don't have to deal with it.

[Vixen]

The alcoholic would drink regardless if it's legal or illegal. If it's legal he's still digging his own grave. If it's illegal at least the public don't have to deal with it.

So you prefer to sweep things under the carpet and ignore them rather than deal with the problems? If people are going to drink any way, why make it illegal? What´s the point? Just a big waste of time, money and jail space.


The alcoholic would drink regardless if it's legal or illegal.

And so will social and moderate drinkers who value their freedom. You would turn good, honest people into criminals?

[Yaroslav]

So you prefer to sweep things under the carpet and ignore them rather than deal with the problems? If people are going to drink any way, why make it illegal? What´s the point? Just a big waste of time, money and jail space.

The alcoholics and criminals will keep drinking. But majority of people will stop drinking as the statistics of prohibition have shown in the past.

How else would you deal with the problem without banning alcohol?

[Vixen]

The alcoholics and criminals will keep drinking. But majority of people will stop drinking as the statistics of prohibition have shown in the past.


I doubt it. I would not stop dinking. Neither would my friends or family or most of the drinkers I know. None of us are alcoholics or criminals.

[Vixen]

How else would you deal with the problem without banning alcohol?

I don´t know. But prohibition will only cause more problems.

[2Cool]

Making it illegal would increase crime. Alcohol is very easy to make as well which means that not only will organized Crime will become more profitable and powerful such as the Mafia or the Cartel but you will also be increasing street crime since anybody with 2 brain cells can make beer. There's really no benefit to doing so. Drunk driving can be mitigated through many different ways without banning alcohol: through education (introduce concepts such as designated driver), better public transport, harsher punishments for DUIs, or if you want to be extreme you could just equip all cars with a Breathalyzer. Alcohol is also ingrained in society, especially Western Society and some alcoholic beverage such as wine are actually good for your health in moderation. You will have an incredibly hard time trying to convince Europe to give up it's traditions in beer, wine, and spirit making. I thought this was a European preservation website? Good job destroying a large component of European culture.

You also have the issue that jails are already overcrowded as it is. Do you really want to add more people in jail for doing petty crimes such as drinking a beer? I don't want my tax dollars to be wasted on such crap either.

In Portugal they decriminalized all drugs and guess what happened? Drug usage went down. if you want drug use to decrease the solution is not to ban them. It's to treat the addicted instead of putting them in jails, punish the suppliers, and educate the mass population.

[Osprey]

No.
Less Laws, Less Crime and Better People. :angel
More Laws, More repression, More Frustration and Badder People. :grumpy:

[Aces High]

I am 100% against alcohol and believe the drink is straight from hell.

Well when your balls drop and your zits fade and you grow up.....you will find that alcohol if used properly is quite pleasant.
It oils the wheels of social intercourse.....compliments a decent meal etc.

I would like to sea religion banned myself......and jehovah's muslims or jehovah's internet christians boiled in chip fat,because they cause more problems than booze.

[Quorra]

Boozing every weekend is a huge problem in our society. Life's better without it. I voted yes.

[Skandi]

never enact a law you cannot enforce. since there is no way to enforce a law of 0 alcohol then it should never be created.

pretty much anything can be fermented in any container, even using bread yeast or natural yeasts you get to 10% or so, a domestic freezer can get that SAFELY to 20-25% depending on it's min temp.

I don't drink often, but if you made it illegal I would almost certainly drink more!

[Anarch]

I am 100% against alcohol and believe the drink is straight from hell.

I want to see what others think.

I'd like to force feed it to you in lethal quantities, for actually advocating that my freedom be violated.

[The Lawspeaker]

The prohibition of alcohol was very " successful": it ensured corruption and organised crime. The war on drugs is another one of those follies.

[Breedingvariety]

I would support ban on advertising and glamorizing alcohol, tobacco and drugs.

But all drugs should be legal.

[Han Cholo]

Don't drive drunk and don't hit your wife and all will be fine. Alcohol is not good but many other things shoved down your throat are not good either. I can not imagine my life without Alcohol. What would be of the weekends when I have nothing to do? Some people like to travel, nomad around, go to church, I like to drink in weekends. I always drink one beer in the afternoon and one beer in the night, most of the days. It's rare when I pass out or end up throwing. Most of the time I drink moderately. Let people have their delights. All is fine as long you don't abuse it, even harder drugs (which are also harder not to abuse).

At most, I would support banning drinking in public places (it's banned in Mexico.) and advertising alcohol on TV or big advertisements. A drunkard will always know a brand or two of beer, and someone who hangs out with them will likely too. Advertising alcohol is not banned in Mexico but advertising cigarretes (in any kind of advertisement, tv or street) is also banned. It's also banned to smoke in closed, private envinorements.

Anyway, even if it was illegal I would keep on drinking. I would probably do it less often though.

[Breedingvariety]

Also, all drug use preventive programs for our children should be stopped. As these are drugs use encouraging programs.

[finþaų]

No, I'd rather prohibit the people who use it unwisely.

[Quorra]

No, I'd rather prohibit the people who use it unwisely.

We already do that. It's called the war on drugs.

We should be prohibiting the people who sell them unwisely.

[Dacul]

You are not christian orthodox ukrainian if you can open such nonsense polls but just a new-protestant sectarian american.
In Ukraine vodka is traditional drink,same with Russia and in other european countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodka
In Transylvania,Serbia,Croatia,Hungary,Slovakia and so on palinka/slivovitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slivovitz) is traditional drink.
At dacians wine was traditional drink.
Traditional drink as wine is still kept in south Romania,Moldavia and Republic of Moldavia.
Sure all mediteranids countries have as traditional drink wine,same with Georgia.
France also have as traditional drink wine,even though they are not pure mediteranids.
Whisky is traditional drink for UK.
No ideea which is the traditional drink in Scandinavia.

[Quorra]

Q6Ucyx2DCZo

[ricko0812]

I'd say ban religious extemists from making any decisions on social issues.

[Anarch]

We already do that. It's called the war on drugs.

True. And it's locking up thousands of people for victimless crimes, overstretching the prison system and making everything worse.

[finþaų]

We already do that. It's called the war on drugs.

We should be prohibiting the people who sell them unwisely.

No, we're not doing that. The war on drugs punishes anyone regardless of their capability to sufficiently cope with the substances in question as to not be a burden on society.

[Peyrol]

What a idiot thread.

[Leliana]

What!? That's an outragoeus postulation! :nono: No, Id' never support it. Drinking alcohol is part of European culture, most of all in Austria and Germany. :cheers: I drank my first sips of beer with 11 on a family party. Thanks mom and dad. :D

[PetiteParisienne]

No. The abuse of alcohol is the problem; not alcohol itself. I don't drink more than one or two glasses of wine each month, so I have no big attachment to it. Even so, making it illegal is ridiculous. Firstly, there is an art to the creation of wines, ales, lagers, sprits, etc. Many alcohols are created using centuries of traditional craftsmanship. Secondly, alcohol has its place socially. I could not picture a Britain without groups of merry people enjoying cozy winter days together in a pub, or a France without people savouring balmy summer evenings over a bottle of wine. If you take away alcohol, you deny people one of the last bastions of authentic European culture. You also criminalise alcoholics, who need help, not punishment. Anyone who wants to live in a place where alcohol is illegal should move to a Muslim country.

[Leliana]

True Christians can't support prohibition. Jesus himself changed water to wine (Johannes 2:1-11).

[Smaland]

23) Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

I Timothy 5:23 (King James Version)



To me, alcohol is a prescription-grade drug that you can buy over the counter. If you abuse it, it will bite you, and bite you hard. But if you drink responsibly, it will benefit your health, and help you relax in social situations.

It is laudable to condemn and avoid intoxication, but one can still drink in moderation.

My parents were and are a good example for me. They drink wine and mixed drinks, and I have never seen them drunk; not even once.

[Yaroslav]

You are not christian orthodox ukrainian if you can open such nonsense polls but just a new-protestant sectarian american.
In Ukraine vodka is traditional drink,same with Russia and in other european countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodka
In Transylvania,Serbia,Croatia,Hungary,Slovakia and so on palinka/slivovitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slivovitz) is traditional drink.
At dacians wine was traditional drink.
Traditional drink as wine is still kept in south Romania,Moldavia and Republic of Moldavia.
Sure all mediteranids countries have as traditional drink wine,same with Georgia.
France also have as traditional drink wine,even though they are not pure mediteranids.
Whisky is traditional drink for UK.
No ideea which is the traditional drink in Scandinavia.

I'm NOT Orthodox. I don't follow traditions, I follow the Bible.

[The Lawspeaker]

I'm NOT Orthodox. I don't follow traditions, I follow the Bible.
That would make you less of a Christian then you think, my friend.

[Yaroslav]

That would make you less of a Christian then you think, my friend.

Oh really?

There is Churchianity and there is Christianity. I am a Christian.

[Supreme American]

Usage of it is beyond out of control. I'd like to keep narcotics illegal so we don't end up as widespread with those as with alcohol.

[Supreme American]

Oh really?

There is Churchianity and there is Christianity. I am a Christian.

Don't question Tuan. He's an expert in Christian theology.

[Yaroslav]

Don't question Tuan. He's an expert in Christian theology.

He's not even Christian..

[The Lawspeaker]

Oh really?

There is Churchianity and there is Christianity. I am a Christian.

Well.. to be quite honest: the relying on written script alone and the anti-alcohol stance sounds more like Islam.

[Yaroslav]

Well.. to be quite honest: the relying on written script alone and the anti-alcohol stance sounds more like Islam.

Muslims follow Koran. I follow the Bible, therefore I am not a Muslim.

[The Lawspeaker]

Muslims follow Koran. I follow the Bible, therefore I am not a Muslim.

There are people that find it difficult to see the difference between the two. I am one of those people - if it wasn't for the New Testament the Bible would be the same kind of primitive Mein Kampf as the Qu'ran.

[Yaroslav]

There are people that find it difficult to see the difference between the two. I am one of those people - if it wasn't for the New Testament the Bible would be the same kind of primitive Mein Kampf as the Qu'ran.

That is ridiculous. You clearly never read the Bible or the Koran, they cannot be compared.

[2Cool]

Christian or any religious Theology should have no effect on the laws or constitution of a country. So whatever the Bible, Qur'an, or any other fairy tell book says is moot here.

[The Lawspeaker]

That is ridiculous. You clearly never read the Bible or the Koran, they cannot be compared.

I have when I was a teenager. They are the same kind of crap in a slightly different wrapper. The different wrapper being the name and the book cover.

[Queen B]

Of course not. If you don't want to drink, then just don't drink.

[Yaroslav]

Christian or any religious Theology should have no effect on the laws or constitution of a country. So whatever the Bible, Qur'an, or any other fairy tell book says is moot here.

Banning alcohol is not about Bible, I believe in separation of religion from state too. It is for health and safety reasons.

[Yaroslav]

I have when I was a teenager. They are the same kind of crap in a slightly different wrapper. The different wrapper being the name and the book cover.

Crap?

[The Lawspeaker]

Banning alcohol is not about Bible, I believe in separation of religion from state too. It is for health and safety reasons.

Well. It would have the same effects as drugs has now: it goes underground and people still drink themselves into a stupor and there is no control over it. Consequence: more crime and corruption. How do I know ? America, 1920s.

[ficuscarica]

Yaroslav, cool down. Ever heard of the Lord´s supper. They didn´t drink grape juice. It all depends on how much you drink. Just stop before you get drunken, then it is Christian. In Isaiah 25 there is even a prophesy about the new earth that God will create and about the old wines that will be served there. The word is not grape juice, and "old" grape juice would not be what you want for a celebration...

[The Lawspeaker]

Crap?

Yes. Crap.

[Yaroslav]

Yes. Crap.

What is "crap" about the Bible (I agree about Koran)?

Tell me what and then I'll address the issues.

[The Lawspeaker]

What is "crap" about the Bible (I agree about Koran)?

Tell me what and then I'll address the issues.

The entire book from cover to cover. Address that. The Bible/Koran/To'rah have done more damage over the last 2000 years than beer ever could. If anything, if you're concerned about health and safety: ban those books.. Not beer.


(Note: I am against banning any books but just to make my point clear).

[PetiteParisienne]

We already know what happens when alcohol is outlawed. Anyone who has studied the American Prohibition is well aware that it just enables more criminal behaviour and, as I have previously mentioned, punishes sick people who should be helped.

[Yaroslav]

The whole lot from cover to cover. Address that. The Bible/Koran/To'rah have done more damage over the last 2000 years then beer ever could.

You have yet to explain to me why.

[2Cool]

Banning alcohol is not about Bible, I believe in separation of religion from state too. It is for health and safety reasons.

Did you read my last post here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=909910&postcount=34

[Minesweeper]

Since most of the people consume alcohol, at least in Europe, it would be foolish to prohibit it, because it's rather a harmless consummation in vast majority of cases.

Nobody is forcing you to drink it if you do not want to.

[The Lawspeaker]

You have yet to explain to me why.

World History. Particularly Jewish, Arab and European history. Look it up.

[Yaroslav]

Did you read my last post here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=909910&postcount=34

Even though organized crime increased, the mortality rates were lowered if you look at statistics.

[The Lawspeaker]

Even though organized crime increased, the mortality rates were lowered if you look at statistics.

Mortality rates for alcohol.. maybe. But for murder ? I doubt it. So you would rather have corruption and organised crime then someone drinking himself into a stupor on a Saturday night ?

Strange logic, mate.

[Yaroslav]

World History. Particularly Jewish, Arab and European history. Look it up.

I'm asking why you consider Bible "crap" from cover to cover? Saying "it's just crap" is not an answer, that tells me you don't know even anything about it.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Oh c'mon..

Cheers !!

[Yaroslav]

Mortality rates for alcohol.. maybe. But for murder ? I doubt it. So you would rather have corruption and organised crime then someone drinking himself into a stupor on a Saturday night ?

Strange logic, mate.

There is more murder when alcohol is in public use. Over half of murders that occur is because of alcohol influence.

[The Lawspeaker]

I'm asking why you consider Bible "crap" from cover to cover? Saying "it's just crap" is not an answer, that tells me you don't know even anything about it.
As I said: the whole thing from cover to cover and I mean that. Monotheism, the religious persecutions that it led too, Jewish genocides on it's neighbours which it then tried to whitewash in the Bible. The entire thing is pure hogwash.

The Book of Job could have been written by someone that was psychotic and the same goes for the Book of Revelations.

[The Lawspeaker]

There is more murder when alcohol is in public use. Over half of murders that occur is because of alcohol influence.
Bollocks. Any evidence for that ? If I am truly pissed I will fall asleep: not murder someone.

[ficuscarica]

Tuan, I think you are treating the bible unfair. If you read the bible, take the whole context of statements that are made, and act like it, you will do things that differ completely from much that has been done in history.
The problem is that people claimed to be Christian (the origin of the word is "Christ" and it was first used for those who followed Christ), and acted exactly contrary to what the bible teaches. It is akin to writing "PACIFIST" on your forehead and going apesh!t with an AK-47.

[The Lawspeaker]

Tuan, I think you are treating the bible unfair. If you read the bible, take the whole context of statements that are made, and act like it, you will do things that differ much completely from what has been done in history.
The problem is that people claimed to be Christian (the origin of the word is "Christ" and it was first used for those who followed Christ), and act exactly contrary to what the bible teaches it is akin to writing "PACIFIST" on your forehead and going apesh!t with an AK-47.
I have read it and it has convinced me that it is nothing but a psychotic work glorifying mass-murder on one page and preaching love and forgiveness on the other. It doesn't have one writer - it was written by numerous writers over the course of centuries - each one creating another piece of propaganda.

[Yaroslav]

Tuan, I think you are treating the bible unfair. If you read the bible, take the whole context of statements that are made, and act like it, you will do things that differ much completely from what has been done in history.
The problem is that people claimed to be Christian (the origin of the word is "Christ" and it was first used for those who followed Christ), and act exactly contrary to what the bible teaches it is akin to writing "PACIFIST" on your forehead and going apesh!t with an AK-47.

Exactly when Tuan is referring to bad Christian history I assume he means Inquisition, etc. which were carried out by the Church (which is run by Luceferian occults) and millions of innocent were perished who did not follow the Church. This is why I believe in separation of church and state so the state doesn't get involved with our faith.

[The Lawspeaker]

Exactly when Tuan is referring to bad Christian history I assume he means Inquisition, etc. which were carried out by the Church (which is run by Luceferian occults) and millions of innocent were perished who did not follow the Church. This is why I believe in separation of church and state so the state doesn't get involved with out faith.

I am referring to Christian, Islamic and Jewish history because the three shouldn't be seen as separate. They are three sides of exactly the same thing. Monotheism.

[Yaroslav]

Bollocks. Any evidence for that ? If I am truly pissed I will fall asleep: not murder someone.

In Ireland almost half of the perpetrators of homicide were intoxicated when the crime was committed.

http://alcoholireland.ie/alcohol-facts/alcohol-related-harm-facts-and-statistics/

[The Lawspeaker]

In Ireland almost half of the perpetrators of homicide were intoxicated when the crime was committed.

http://alcoholireland.ie/alcohol-facts/alcohol-related-harm-facts-and-statistics/
"National Charity". Very neutral. They have got to get their money somewhere so they make up stories.

[Yaroslav]

I am referring to Christian, Islamic and Jewish history because the three shouldn't be seen as separate. They are three sides of exactly the same thing. Monotheism.

If you think we worship the same God then you are delusional. Both Jews and Muslims deny the Holy Trinity and reject Jesus (Muslims call him "prophet", so they reject him).

[ficuscarica]

Tuan, I have read the book several times and studied the background facts for five years. The bible has several authors but the late author Paul claims that all were inspired by God. The mass-"murdering" you find in the torah is not a contradiction to the later teaching of love and forgiveness at all. The Israelites had to carry out God´s judgement over nations that had been sacrificing children and doing similar evil things for centuries. He watched that for 400 years, but they would not stop with it...

Jesus did not come to say that God won´t judge anymore, but that his judgement is delayed, as he wants people to have an opportunity to change their ways and to receive forgiveness. Therefore it is not the Christian´s job to judge.

[Siegfried]

All of your quotes from the Bible refer to becoming drunk (heavily intoxicated) and it's effects on the person, not to a small drink every once in a while. And as well, if you really look into the matter, drinking is not necessarily something that is done for the pleasure of doing it, but mostly cultural, or, as you put it, ritual, something that was passed down through the ancestors. When it is done for the pleasure of drinking, only for the effects it has on your body, that is most likely when a person will drink to much.

And did Jesus not also say:

14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: 15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. 16 If any man have ears to hear , let him hear. (Mark 7:14-23)

[Yaroslav]

"National Charity". Very neutral. They have got to get their money somewhere so they make up stories.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/ac.pdf

[The Lawspeaker]

If you think we worship the same God then you are delusional. Both Jews and Muslims deny the Holy Trinity and reject Jesus (Muslims call him "prophet", so they reject him).
It's exactly the same thing. It comes from the same source so it's the same thing. The rest is pure dialectics.

[Aces High]

In Ireland almost half of the perpetrators of homicide were intoxicated when the crime was committed.

http://alcoholireland.ie/alcohol-facts/alcohol-related-harm-facts-and-statistics/

Were the Conquistadors drunk when they wiped out populations in south America...?

[The Lawspeaker]

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/ac.pdf

Same shit. Government agencies like charities tend to falsify the books in order to get their hands on more state funding. :)

[Sultan Suleiman]

I am 100% against alcohol and believe the drink is straight from hell.

I want to see what others think.

Buddy I am a Muslim and I usually pray at least twice a day, but even I sometimes want to out get wasted with friends just for giggles and shit :lol:
And if my greatest sin is getting drunk few times a month I will die a happy man :thumb001:

My answer to your question is a BIG NO!

[Siegfried]

I, however, do support certain restrictions on the amount purchased and consumed since people will often consume too much without thinking about the consequences.

[The Lawspeaker]

Were the Conquistadors drunk when they wiped out populations in south America...?

They were probably looking for a drink and they couldn't find it so they, being the good Christians of their day, took it out on the native population. A bit like English hooligans that would thrash an inner city if their club lost a match and the sale of alcohol is outlawed. ;) (and I can't blame them)

[2Cool]

I'm asking why you consider Bible "crap" from cover to cover? Saying "it's just crap" is not an answer, that tells me you don't know even anything about it.

It's crap because it was written by people who had not even seen Jesus alive. Some of the Gospels weren't even written by the people they are attributed to. It is also recollection of numerous Biblical books, some of which weren't even included. And that's just the tip of the Iceberg.

[Yaroslav]

It's exactly the same thing. It comes from the same source so it's the same thing. The rest is pure dialectics.

Christianity and Judaism have the same source, but not Islam. Islam comes from Arabian paganism, but plagiarizes much of Christian teachings. And Judaism is not the Judaism of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses... The Talmud is rather recent and comes from Babylon. Christianity is the only true successor to faith of Israelites. Israelites were chosen to deliver Savior to the Gentile word, and they did. But like Isaiah predicted the Israelties rejected him.

[The Lawspeaker]

Christianity and Judaism have the same source, but not Islam. Islam comes from Arabian paganism, but plagiarizes much of Christian teachings. And Judaism is not the Judaism of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses... The Talmud is rather recent and comes from Babylon. Christianity is the only true successor to faith of Israelites. Israelites were chosen to deliver Savior to the Gentile word, and they did. But like Isaiah predicted the Israelties rejected him.
It's exactly the same thing. That Islam came from Arab paganism is a recent Christian fundamentalist crackpot theory and not based on facts.

[ficuscarica]

2Cool, what you say is simple wrong from a historical perspective.
1. All authors of the New Testament either had seen Jesus alive or knew people that had seen him alive.
2. The books were not simply put together. You will find documents from the early 2nd century after Christ that show that people already back then considered those books of the New Testament as divinely inspired, that later became part of the biblical canon. The Church conciles around 400 had the function of officially confirming what had been common sense for centuries. The Old Testament was already complete when Jesus came and both Jesus and Paul quoted from it several times.

[Yaroslav]

It's crap because it was written by people who had not even seen Jesus alive. Some of the Gospels weren't even written by the people they are attributed to. It is also recollection of numerous Biblical books, some of which weren't even included. And that's just the tip of the Iceberg.

Your point being?

[Sultan Suleiman]

Christianity and Judaism have the same source, but not Islam. Islam comes from Arabian paganism, but plagiarizes much of Christian teachings. And Judaism is not the Judaism of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses... The Talmud is rather recent and comes from Babylon. Christianity is the only true successor to faith of Israelites. Israelites were chosen to deliver Savior to the Gentile word, and they did. But like Isaiah predicted the Israelties rejected him.

So Arabic pagans considered Jesus a Messiah of mankind born of a virgin?

[The Lawspeaker]

Your point being?

That the Bible is crap. A series of falsehoods and propaganda. A founding myth of the Jewish people and an attempt to stake their claim on lands belonging to the Canaanites (you know: the true inhabitants of that part of the world).

[Yaroslav]

It's exactly the same thing. That Islam came from Arab paganism is a recent Christian fundamentalist crackpot theory and not based on facts.

There is absolutely no question that Allah was worshiped by the pagan Arabs as one of many polytheistic gods.

[Yaroslav]

So Arabic pagans considered Jesus a savior of mankind born of a virgin?

They consider Him a "prophet". We consider Him GOD.

[2Cool]

Your point being?

Point being that quoting from the Bible is stupid. It's not even a good book when it comes to morality. I'd rather read philosophical books from the Enlightenment.

[The Lawspeaker]

There is absolutely no question that Allah was worshiped by the pagan Arabs as one of many polytheistic gods.

Evidence ? And not from Christian fundamentalist website. That theory only came up 2 or 3 years ago from Christian fundamentalists on Youtube.

[poodletroglodyte]

No way! Cheers! Na zdrowie!

[Yaroslav]

Point being that quoting from the Bible is stupid. It's not even a good book when it comes to morality. I'd rather read philosophical books from the Enlightenment.

That is your own choice. I'm not forcing anyone to believe in Bible.

[Yaroslav]

Evidence ? And not from Christian fundamentalist website. That theory only came up 2 or 3 years ago from Christian fundamentalists on Youtube.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah#Pre-Islamic_Arabia

Wikipedia is very anti-Christ, so don't tell me it is Christian fundamentalist.

[The Lawspeaker]

No way! Cheers! Na zdrowie!

http://bier.blog.nl/files/2011/04/bier5.jpg

Proost ! My Bible is the Beer Encyclopaedia and my God is beer.

[The Lawspeaker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah#Pre-Islamic_Arabia
Wikipedia. Hmm wait a moment what did I write about wikipedia ? Ah yes (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/the-right-s-latest-weapon-zionist-editing-on-wikipedia-1.308667).

[ficuscarica]

I find it rather strange to call the bible a Jewish tool to excuse their invasion in Canaan when, already in the Torah, they are several times described as disgustingly immoral and only saved by God´s grace/Moses praying for them.

[The Lawspeaker]

I find it rather strange to call the bible a Jewish tool to excuse their invasion in Canaan when, already in the Torah, they are several times described as disgustingly immoral and only saved by God´s grace/Moses praying for them.

And they still use the same book to claim ownership over it and Fundamentalist Christians use the same book to support Israel's claim. ;)

[Yaroslav]

Wikipedia. Hmm wait a moment what did I write about wikipedia ? Ah yes (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/the-right-s-latest-weapon-zionist-editing-on-wikipedia-1.308667).

Those are historical facts. You can be ignorant all you want, but history is history.

[The Lawspeaker]

Those are historical facts. You can be ignorant all you want, but history is history.
On wikipedia where such articles are often edited. ;) It's claptrap.

[Yaroslav]

And they still use the same book to claim ownership over it and Fundamentalist Christians use the same book to support Israel's claim. ;)

Bible believing Christians oppose Illuminati's "Israel" which is set up to be home to the coming antichrist. Don't consider John Hagee followers to represent Christians, they believe in many unscriptural heresies.

[2Cool]

Wikipedia isn't that bad. For popular pages it's quite accurate and you can look at the sources if you want. They also did a research on it and found that its scientific pages are as accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica.

[The Lawspeaker]

Bible believing Christians oppose Illuminati's "Israel" which is set up to be home to the coming antichrist. Don't consider John Hagee followers to represent Christians, they believe in many unscriptural heresies.

They don't (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism). Guess why the Israel lobby is so strong under fundi Christians ?

[Yaroslav]

On wikipedia where such articles are often edited. ;) It's claptrap.

"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god called Allah" - (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:302, Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1913, Houtsma).



"The name Allah, as the Quran itself is witness, was well known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Indeed, both it and its feminine form, Allat, are found not infrequently among the theophorous names in inscriptions from North Africa" - (Islam: Muhammad, and His Religion, New York: The Liberal Arts Press, 1958, p. 85).



The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god." It is not a foreign word. It is not even the Syriac word for God. It is pure Arabic. - (There is an interesting discussion of the origins of Allah, in "Arabic Lexicographical Miscellanies" by J. Blau in the Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. XVII, #2, 1972, pp. 173-190).



Neither is Allah a Hebrew or Greek word for God as found in the Bible. Allah is a purely Arabic term used in reference to an Arabian deity. Hastings' Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics I:326, T & T Clark, states:

'"Allah" is a proper name, applicable only to their [Arabs'] peculiar God. '



According to the Encyclopedia of Religion:

'"Allah" is a pre-Islamic name . . . corresponding to the Babylonian Bel' - (Encyclopedia of Religion, I:117 Washington DC, Corpus Pub., 1979).



For those who find it hard to believe that Allah was a pagan name for a peculiar pagan Arabian deity in pre-Islamic times, the following quotations may be helpful:

"Allah is found . . . in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam" - (Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643).



"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god called Allah" - (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:302, Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1913, Houtsma).



"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic . . . Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities" - (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:406, ed. Gibb).



"Ilah . . . appears in pre-Islamic poetry . . . By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to Allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry" - Encyclopedia off Islam, III:1093, 1971).



"The name Allah goes back before Muhammad" - (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, I:41, Anthony Mercatante, New York, The Facts on File, 1983).



"The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity" - (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, I:326, Hastings).



To the testimony of the above standard reference works, we add those of such scholars as Henry Preserved Smith of Harvard University who has stated:

"Allah was already known by name to the Arabs" - (The Bible and Islam: or, The Influence of the Old and New Testament on the Religion of Mohammed, New York, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1897, p. 102).



Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works are generally published by Oxford University, comments:

"The name Allah is also evident in archeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia" - (The Call of the Minaret, New York: Oxford University Press, 1956, p. 31).



"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a "high god." In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment" - (William Montgomery Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, p. vii. Also see his article, "Belief in a High God in Pre-Islamic Mecca", Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. 16, 1971, pp. 35-40).



Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:

"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews" - (Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York, Barrons, 1987, p. 28).



According to Middle East scholar E.M. Wherry, whose translation of the Quran is still used today, in pre-Islamic times Allah-worship, as well as the worship of Ba-al, were both astral religions in that they involved the worship of the sun, the moon, and the stars - (A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, Osnabruck: Otto Zeller Verlag, 1973, p. 36).

[poodletroglodyte]

Bible condemns alcohol? In Roman Catholicism you can't celebrate Eucharist without wine. As I remember Jesus personally converted water in to wine.

[Yaroslav]

They don't (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism). Guess why the Israel lobby is so strong under fundi Christians ?

Christian Zionism doesn't represent Christianity or the Bible. Zionism is Satanic.

http://www.seedtheseries.com/blog/images/star-david666.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

Christian Zionism doesn't represent Christianity or the Bible. Zionism is Satanic.

http://www.seedtheseries.com/blog/images/star-david666.jpg
Actually. In the U.S it's rather mainstream. Protestant churches here always support Israel as well.

[Yaroslav]

Actually. In the U.S it's rather mainstream. Protestant churches here always support Israel as well.

Homosexuality is also mainstream. Episcopal Church has gay pastors. That doesn't make it scriptural/Christian :rolleyes:

[ficuscarica]

And they still use the same book to claim ownership over it and Fundamentalist Christians use the same book to support Israel's claim. ;)

Well, that obviously is true, but that was not my point. Israel is shown in such a bad light in the Torah and in the Old Testament, that it is impossible that they invented that book for their own benefit. Basically it is saying you Israelis are hardcore loosers and it is only God´s grace that saved you from being doomed (and the NT teaches the same about Christians btw ;)).

Just from a logical point of view it is rather hard to believe that this book was simply invented.

[Yaroslav]

That the Bible is crap. A series of falsehoods and propaganda. A founding myth of the Jewish people and an attempt to stake their claim on lands belonging to the Canaanites (you know: the true inhabitants of that part of the world).

http://britam.org/picturesYair/greater_israel.gif

This is the future Israel that God has promised to HIS FOLLOWERS. Jews are NOT his followers, because they REJECTED him. Arabs, Jews, Turks, Kurds, or anyone else who ACCEPTS salvation (salvation is a free gift), will inhabit this land.

The Illuminati Israel of today will be destroyed.

[ficuscarica]

Yaroslav said that the Jews are doomed, now Tuan will love him. :D Theologically it is true, that only those Jews who believe in Jesus will be "saved", but God promised in the bible to save many Jews in the "last days", so he still has a plan for them. ;)

[Yaroslav]

Yaroslav said that the Jews are doomed, now Tuan will love him. :D Theologically it is true, that only those Jews who believe in Jesus will be "saved", but God promised in the bible to save many Jews in the "last days", so he still has a plan for them. ;)

There are many Jewish Christians. God bless the Jewish people, damn the Satanic Judaism & Zionism.

[ficuscarica]

Well, read Hesekiel 36. I would call Judaism satanic, too, but I also think it is God´s plan to bring the Jewish people to the land Israel and make them believe in Jesus there. The community of Israeli Jewish believers in Jesus is growing rapidly.

But the topic here is prohibition of alcohol. And from a biblical point of view there is no need to forbid drinking alcohol, as both Jesus and his diciples did it/appreciated it. And even if the bible would forbid alcohol, we are not called to enforce the biblical laws on other people.

[Yaroslav]

Well, read Hesekiel 36. I would call Judaism satanic, too, but I also think it is God´s plan to bring the Jewish people to the land Israel and make them believe in Jesus there. The community of Israeli Jewish believers in Jesus is growing rapidly.

God WILL save the Christian Jewish people. Jews that reject Jesus will not be saved, Bible is pretty clear about that and John Hagee cannot overturn God's Word.

[ficuscarica]

God WILL save the Christian Jewish people. Jews that reject Jesus will not be saved, Bible is pretty clear about that and John Hagee cannot overturn God's Word.

Of course, there is no contradiction to my statement in your statement.

[Yaroslav]

Of course, there is no contradiction to my statement in your statement.

Yes. Also I believe the Zionist State of Israel will bring the antichrist into the world and then the Great Tribulation will start. After that Jesus and the caught up Christians (the Rapture) will come down after Tribulation and rule the Earth for millennium. Rapture happens before Tribulation.

[PetiteParisienne]

What do conspiracy theories about Israel have to do with the legality of alcohol?

Factoid: the production of alcohol in the region was forbidden under Islamic rule, but not anymore!

L'Chaim! :)

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f220/stonedeurydice/Food/yarden.jpg

[Yaroslav]

What do conspiracy theories about Israel have to do with the legality of alcohol?

Factoid: the production of alcohol in the region was forbidden under Islamic rule, but not anymore!

L'Chaim! :)

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f220/stonedeurydice/Food/yarden.jpg

England under Islamic rule? :confused:

[Incal]

Why should I support its prohibition? If somebody doesn't want to drink then he won't drink and that's it. Some people tend to confuse "allowance" with "mandatory".

[Edelmann]

Only to some extant. Perhaps for demonstrated alcoholics.

[Curtis24]

Yes, but doing so is totally impractical, since there are too many people who need it to function.

[Yaroslav]

Yes, but doing so is totally impractical, since there are too many people who need it to function.

Alcohol is one of those things which helps us forget how miserable modern society really is, and is such is crucial towards the functioning of our sick society.

Marijuana is very good for your health and makes you feel much better than alcohol. Alcohol makes you feel miserable.

[Leliana]

A Christian cannot justify drinking.
No shit, Yaroslav. :rolleyes: :banghead:

Our Holy Father, the Pope and highest representant of Christianity, thinks different:

http://gott-welt.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/papst.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2146/2230189328_2d5552fec2.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2402/2229402871_75258cf2f2.jpg


Some members are funny. Yaroslav, talk for your own aberration of church.

[Yaroslav]

No shit, Yaroslav. :rolleyes: :banghead:

Meanwhile in the residence of or Holy Father, the Pope:

http://gott-welt.de/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/papst.jpg

Some members are funny. Yaroslav, talk for your own aberration of church.

Pope is a Satanic spawn I'm not surprised.

[ficuscarica]

LOL.

[PetiteParisienne]

England under Islamic rule? :confused:

I was referring to the state of Israel.

But, with the way things are going, England may well be under Islamic rule someday. :(

[Yaroslav]

Yaroslav, talk for your own aberration of church.

I am a Christian. You are Catholic. We follow different religions, I'm NOT speaking about your religion I'm speaking what MY faith teaches (Jesus & Bible). It's your choice to follow Vatican.

[Leliana]

Pope is a Satanic spawn I'm not surprised.
If there still was the Holy Inquisition, they could ring at your doorbell. :rolleyes:

[Yaroslav]

If there still was the Holy Inquisition, they could ring at your doorbell. :rolleyes:

And I would gladly die for God. After life is more important than life on Earth to me personally.

[Leliana]

I am a Christian. You are Catholic. We follow different religions, I'm NOT speaking about your religion I'm speaking what MY faith teaches (Jesus & Bible). It's your choice to follow Vatican.Biblical Christianity is Catholicism. You're one of those Evangelicals?!?

[Aces High]

And I would gladly die for God. After life is more important than life on Earth to me personally.

By the sounds of it you dont have a life.

[Leliana]

And I would gladly die for God. After life is more important than life on Earth to me personally.
Jesus created wine at one time and drunk it with his followers at other times. Regularly! Read the bible.

[Yaroslav]

Biblical Christianity is Catholicism. You're one of those Evangelicals?!?

Catholicism is cult of Mary/Mother of Harlots. I don't have a denomination, I adhere to Bible's teachings ONLY.

[Yaroslav]

By the sounds of it you dont have a life.

Life on earth ends. After life is ETERNAL. I could care less about life on Earth, all that matters to me is salvation for me and others.

[Leliana]

Catholicism is cult of Mary/Mother of Harlots. I don't have a denomination, I adhere to Bible's teachings ONLY.
The Pope is the representant of god on earth and the first pope was Petrus himself. There's a direct line and Catholicism is the cradle of Christianity. All other Christian beliefs are aberrations of the original, of the mother church.

[StonyArabia]

^ I am still wondering what you think of non-European Christians?

[Yaroslav]

The Pope is the representant of god on earth and the first pope was Petrus himself. There's a direct line and Catholicism is the cradle of Christianity. All other Christian beliefs are aberrations from the original, from the mother church.

http://donpiorsuerte.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/inverted_cross.jpg

This man is NOT Christian :rolleyes:

Catholicism was established in 380 AD, Christianity was established 200+ years before that.

[Yaroslav]

^ I am still wondering what you think of non-European Christians?

We are all equal in eyes of God.

[Aces High]

After life is ETERNAL.

Prove it.

[PetiteParisienne]

Perhaps this thread should be split. Yea or nay?

[Yaroslav]

Prove it.

That is fundamental belief of Christians, if you're not Christian then why do you need proof? No one forces you to believe it.

[Aces High]

That is fundamental belief of Christians,

You believe in something you cant prove...is that what you are telling me...?

[Sultan Suleiman]

That the Bible is crap. A series of falsehoods and propaganda. A founding myth of the Jewish people and an attempt to stake their claim on lands belonging to the Canaanites (you know: the true inhabitants of that part of the world).

You are kinda taking this too far with the insults mate. I am all open for discussion and argumented criticism of Holy Scriptures, but all what are you doing is flinging quasi-intellectual poo like a zoo ape (or a Mexican) at some ones beliefs in which he was brought up.

[Yaroslav]

You believe in something you cant prove...is that what you are telling me...?

You believe something you can't prove too. Prove me there isn't an after life.

[2Cool]

Life on earth ends. After life is ETERNAL. I could care less about life on Earth, all that matters to me is salvation for me and others.

That's sad. You are wasting your life with this type of mentality. Your beliefs has lead you to believe that life on Earth has little value. I'm surprised you don't just become a martyr to quicken the process.

Also do you understand the concept of eternity? To me, being anywhere for an eternity is the equivalent of being in hell. I would also not be able to enjoy myself in Heaven knowing that some of my family and friends will be not be there to join me.

[Sultan Suleiman]

They consider Him a "prophet". We consider Him GOD.

WE consider him a Prophet and a Messiah who will come back to lead the righteous and those true to God's Commandments. And if you believe in hadiths he has even a greater role :thumb001:

[2Cool]

You believe something you can't prove too. Prove me there isn't an after life.

The onus is on you to prove it not us.


Hey guys I believe in the Spaghetti Monster. You can't prove to me that he doesn't exist. :cool: booya.

[Breedingvariety]

Life on earth ends. After life is ETERNAL. I could care less about life on Earth, all that matters to me is salvation for me and others.
I'll drink to that. Cheers.

[Yaroslav]

That's sad. You are wasting your life with this type of mentality. Your beliefs has lead you to believe that life on Earth has little value. I'm surprised you don't just become a martyr to quicken the process.

Also do you understand the concept of eternity? To me, being anywhere for an eternity is the equivalent of being in hell. I would also not be able to enjoy myself in Heaven knowing that some of my family and friends will be not be there to join me.

Believe what you want. Don't tell me what I should believe. Many people here believe in evolution which is a laughing stock of "science".

[Yaroslav]

The onus is on you to prove it not us.


Hey guys I believe in the Spaghetti Monster. You can't prove to me that he doesn't exist. :cool: booya.

You are entitled to your beliefs, as I am to my. Was I telling any of you to convert to Christianity? So why should I prove anything to you if the answer is no?

[Aces High]

You believe something you can't prove too. Prove me there isn't an after life.

I dont believe or disbelieve.....but i want to pack as much into this life as i can just in case.

Anyway the onus is on you....prove there is an afterlife......dont bandy words or try and play the verbal wordsmith with me because i can assure you in no time ill have you so far gone that you wont know wether your arseholes drilled bored or countersunk.
So just prove there is an afterlife and ill be on my way.

[Yaroslav]

I dont believe or disbelieve.....but i want to pack as much into this life as i can just in case.

Anyway the onus is on you....prove there is an afterlife......dont bandy words or try and play the verbal wordsmith with me because i can assure you in no time ill have you so far gone that you wont know wether your arseholes drilled bored or countersunk.
So just prove there is an afterlife and ill be on my way.

Again, I'm not trying to convert you. I was speaking about what I believe. Believe what you want, I'm not the One to judge.

[Aces High]

Again, I'm not trying to convert you.

Im not trying to join.

I just want to know where this afetrlife is that you talk about.

[2Cool]

Believe what you want. Don't tell me what I should believe. Many people here believe in evolution which is a laughing stock of "science".

No it isn't.

[Yaroslav]

No it isn't.

Micro-evolution is fact, the other five "evolutions" are purely religious with no evidence. If you have evidence, please show me.

[Aces High]

Micro-evolution is fact, the other five "evolutions" are purely religious with no evidence. If you have evidence, please show me.

This is espesciallleeeeeeee for yew.

QmZYIyySxPE

[2Cool]

Micro-evolution is fact, the other five "evolutions" are purely religious with no evidence. If you have evidence, please show me.

Macro-evolution is the result of micro-evolution after millions of years.

[Yaroslav]

Im not trying to join.

I just want to know where this afetrlife is that you talk about.

It is where God lives. No one knows where it is before salvation & death.

[2Cool]

QGMuIyBK5P4

[Sultan Suleiman]

"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god called Allah" - (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:302, Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1913, Houtsma).



"The name Allah, as the Quran itself is witness, was well known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Indeed, both it and its feminine form, Allat, are found not infrequently among the theophorous names in inscriptions from North Africa" - (Islam: Muhammad, and His Religion, New York: The Liberal Arts Press, 1958, p. 85).



The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god." It is not a foreign word. It is not even the Syriac word for God. It is pure Arabic. - (There is an interesting discussion of the origins of Allah, in "Arabic Lexicographical Miscellanies" by J. Blau in the Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. XVII, #2, 1972, pp. 173-190).



Neither is Allah a Hebrew or Greek word for God as found in the Bible. Allah is a purely Arabic term used in reference to an Arabian deity. Hastings' Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics I:326, T & T Clark, states:

'"Allah" is a proper name, applicable only to their [Arabs'] peculiar God. '



According to the Encyclopedia of Religion:

'"Allah" is a pre-Islamic name . . . corresponding to the Babylonian Bel' - (Encyclopedia of Religion, I:117 Washington DC, Corpus Pub., 1979).



For those who find it hard to believe that Allah was a pagan name for a peculiar pagan Arabian deity in pre-Islamic times, the following quotations may be helpful:

"Allah is found . . . in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam" - (Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643).



"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god called Allah" - (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:302, Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1913, Houtsma).



"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic . . . Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities" - (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:406, ed. Gibb).



"Ilah . . . appears in pre-Islamic poetry . . . By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to Allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry" - Encyclopedia off Islam, III:1093, 1971).



"The name Allah goes back before Muhammad" - (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, I:41, Anthony Mercatante, New York, The Facts on File, 1983).



"The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity" - (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, I:326, Hastings).



To the testimony of the above standard reference works, we add those of such scholars as Henry Preserved Smith of Harvard University who has stated:

"Allah was already known by name to the Arabs" - (The Bible and Islam: or, The Influence of the Old and New Testament on the Religion of Mohammed, New York, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1897, p. 102).



Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works are generally published by Oxford University, comments:

"The name Allah is also evident in archeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia" - (The Call of the Minaret, New York: Oxford University Press, 1956, p. 31).



"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a "high god." In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment" - (William Montgomery Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, p. vii. Also see his article, "Belief in a High God in Pre-Islamic Mecca", Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. 16, 1971, pp. 35-40).



Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:

"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews" - (Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York, Barrons, 1987, p. 28).



According to Middle East scholar E.M. Wherry, whose translation of the Quran is still used today, in pre-Islamic times Allah-worship, as well as the worship of Ba-al, were both astral religions in that they involved the worship of the sun, the moon, and the stars - (A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, Osnabruck: Otto Zeller Verlag, 1973, p. 36).

Of course the term "Allah" predates Muhamed :P

Jesus him self probably used it or a variation of it because of common Semtic lingiustic ties ie word "El"; Eloh, Illu, Ellim, Allahi, Olah, Allohim, Allah they mean the same thing like German Gott, Scandinavian Gud and Dutch God mean the same thing. Simply because Germans refereed to Odin as Gott at one point doesn't mean today when they say Gott that they mean him per se :)

[Aces High]

It is where God lives. No one knows where it is before salvation & death.

Who says so.....did someone die and come back with proof.

You see hocus pocus is all very well but its not very convincing.

[Yaroslav]

Macro-evolution is the result of micro-evolution after millions of years.

PROVE it. Where are the transitional fossils? There are TRILLIONS of fossils yet "scientists" have hard time to find ONE transitional fossil. Why?

Also, macro-evolution cannot occur because that requires MUTATION in genetics. In micro-evolution there is no mutation, it is simply acquiring of traits.

Evolution violates First and Second Law of Thermodynamics.

There is no proof that Earth is over 6000 years old. Supposedly humans stopped evolving 100,000 years ago, then why are earliest civilizations such as Sumerians, Egyptians, and Hindu Valley don't exceed that date? "Millions of years old" myth comes from carbon dating, which is not reliable.

Law of conservation of energy destroys the Big Bang theory.

[Yaroslav]

Who says so.....did someone die and come back with proof.

You see hocus pocus is all very well but its not very convincing.

Bible teaches that Heaven and Hell exist, therefore I believe in it.

[Aces High]

There is no proof that Earth is over 6000 years old.

Yes there is.

Oil....;)

[Yaroslav]

Yes there is.

Oil....;)

Oil can be made in a lab. :p

Most of oil was formed during the Flood when the dead plants were buried. Same with fossils, coal, etc.

[2Cool]

PROVE it. Where are the transitional fossils? There are TRILLIONS of fossils yet "scientists" have hard time to find ONE transitional fossil. Why?

Also, macro-evolution cannot occur because that requires MUTATION in genetics. In micro-evolution there is no mutation, it is simply acquiring of traits.

Evolution violates First and Second Law of Thermodynamics.

There is no proof that Earth is over 6000 years old. Supposedly humans stopped evolving 100,000 years ago, then why are earliest civilizations such as Sumerians, Egyptians, and Hindu Valley don't exceed that date? "Millions of years old" myth comes from carbon dating, which is not reliable.

Law of conservation of energy destroys the Big Bang theory.

Yeah... I'm not going to discuss this with a person that lives la la land. Open a biology and geology book.

You want proof of transitional fossils, just go look at how homo sapiens came to be. Evolution takes a long time to happen and if you expect to find a fossil that's a mix between a human and fish than you are an idiot.

Talking to you is the same thing as when Richard Dawkins interviewed this lady:

YFjoEgYOgRo

You should check out this 7 part video.

[Yaroslav]

Yeah... I'm not going to discuss this with a person that lives la la land. Open a biology and geology book.

You want proof of transitional fossils, just go look at how homo sapiens came to be. Evolution takes a long time to happen and if you expect a fossil that a mix between a human and fish you won't see this.

Talking to you is the same thing as when Richard Dawkins interviewed this lady:

YFjoEgYOgRo

You should check out this 7 part video.

Open geology or biology book? That teach lies? :D

Geologic Column, "vestigial" organs, embryonic evolution, etc. are used to prove evolution in those books and they are LIES. Scientists themselves say they are lies.

I'd rather read the Bible, thank you.

[2Cool]

Open geology or biology book? That teach lies? :D

Geologic Column, "vestigial" organs, embryonic evolution, etc. are used to prove evolution in those books and they are LIES. Scientists themselves say they are lies.

Watch the video and then come back.

[Yaroslav]

Watch the video and then come back.

Watch this then come back.

szBTl3S24MY

[Aces High]

Most of oil was formed during the Flood when the dead plants were buried. Same with fossils, coal, etc.

I think we can safely assume that you are living in the wildest realms of fantasy..........in fact not even near fantasy city centre but in some shack in the wildest unexplored mountains of fantasy island.

[Yaroslav]

I think we can safely assume that you are living in the wildest realms of fantasy..........in fact not even near fantasy city centre but in some shack in the wildest unexplored mountains of fantasy island.

I believe that YOU are the one living in lala land. You believe universe came when NOTHING exploded. You believe LIFE evolved from a ROCK in an ORGANIC SOUP. Don't make me laugh!

[Vixen]

http://britam.org/picturesYair/greater_israel.gif

This is the future Israel that God has promised to HIS FOLLOWERS.
anyone else who ACCEPTS salvation (salvation is a free gift), will inhabit this land.


Who the f*ck wants to live on that sandy patch of HELL? No thanks.

[Yaroslav]

Uni Verse means One Verse in Latin.

[Yaroslav]

Who the f*ck wants to live on that sandy patch of HELL? No thanks.

It will not be desert in future. As it was not a desert during days of David & Solomon.

[Aces High]

I believe that YOU are the one living in lala land. You believe universe came when NOTHING exploded. You believe LIFE evolved from a ROCK in an ORGANIC SOUP. Don't make me laugh!

You know nothing of what i believe pleb.

I can assure you that crude oil is older than six thousand years,so your little house of cards starts to crumble with one flippant throwaway example from me.

So have a good life and good luck approaching strangers on buses and in the street with your bible and cheesy grin.

[2Cool]

I think we can safely assume that you are living in the wildest realms of fantasy..........in fact not even near fantasy city centre but in some shack in the wildest unexplored mountains of fantasy island.

People like him show the horrible state of the American educational system and just how detrimental religion is. It's pretty crazy to see people deny scientific evidence, and science in general, when that very science has allowed us to sent satellites to the edges of our solar system, split atoms, and cure people from all sorts of diseases.

[Yaroslav]

You know nothing of what i believe pleb.

I can assure you that crude oil is older than six thousand years,so your little house of cards starts to crumble with one flippant throwaway example from me.

So have a good life and good luck approaching strangers on buses and in the street with your bible and cheesy grin.

Like I said, oil can be made in lab. Don't tell it is proof of "millions of years". :laugh:

[Yaroslav]

People like him show the horrible state of the American educational system and just how detrimental religion is. It's pretty crazy to see people deny scientific evidence, and science in general, when that very science has allowed us to sent satellites to the edges of our solar system, split atoms, and cure people from all sorts of diseases.

I love science. Evolution is not part of science.

[Yaroslav]

One question;

Would you take me seriously if I told you computer and internet "evolved" from NOTHING? NO! A three year old will tell you that it is a creation. It is common sense.

[Graham]

More money in the blackmarket, less money to the Government. Less socialising. Let's live like mormons.

[Mraz]

Alcohol is a bad thing, it brings violence and shame, but prohibition is not a good thing, people should be free to enjoy their beer.

[2Cool]

I love science. Evolution is not part of science.

You don't understand science have no idea what you are talking about.

Maybe you don't like the idea that you share 99% of your dna with chimps? I don't know.

[2Cool]

One question;

Would you take me seriously if I told you computer and internet "evolved" from NOTHING? NO! A three year old will tell you that it is a creation. It is common sense.

What are you talking about?

[Yaroslav]

You don't understand science have no idea what you are talking about.

Maybe you don't like the idea that you share 99% of your dna with chimps? I don't know.

Both Honda and Ford have common design, that means they evolved from a common ancestor? LOL!

Genetic similarity is proof of common designer. Macro Evolution cannot happen because it requires mutations, cosmic/organic/chemical evolution are pure fantasies with no basis whatsoever.

[PetiteParisienne]

The outward movement of galaxies and other cosmic bodies strongly suggests that all matter originated from one central point. This is one of the best pieces of evidence of the Big Bang.

[Yaroslav]

What are you talking about?

Would you take me seriously if I told you computer and internet simply evolved and are not creation? You'll laugh, won't you? But do you know that human genetics is MUCH MUCH more complex than internet? You gonna tell me all this came from nothingness (Big Bang) and later a some organic soup that evolved into life? You REALLY believe that life can be created from non-living thing? That is spontaneous generation my friend! It has been disproved 100 years ago!

[Yaroslav]

The outward movement of galaxies and other cosmic bodies strongly suggests that all matter originated from one central point. This is one of the best pieces of evidence of the Big Bang.

That is a lie. There are galaxies in universe that don't appear to be moving from central point. How do you explain that? And how do you explain that there is NO record of ANY star forming to this day while we see dozens of stars explode every day? There are over 50 trillion stars, how come there is not ONE forming? :D This just proves the Second LAW of Thermodynamics, that everything eventually leads to disorder unless there is external energy.

[PetiteParisienne]

That is a lie. There are galaxies in universe that don't appear to be moving from central point. How do you explain that? And how do you explain that there is NO record of ANY star forming to this day while we see dozens of stars explode every day? There are over 50 trillion stars, how come there is not ONE forming? :D This just proves the Second LAW of Thermodynamics, that everything eventually leads to disorder unless there is external energy.

NASA documentation of the birth of stars.

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_1513.html

It's not a lie. The expansion of the universe has been one of the most easily recorded scientific measurements.

[2Cool]

That is a lie. There are galaxies in universe that don't appear to be moving from central point. How do you explain that? And how do you explain that there is NO record of ANY star forming to this day while we see dozens of stars explode every day? There are over 50 trillion stars, how come there is not ONE forming? :D This just proves the Second LAW of Thermodynamics, that everything eventually leads to disorder unless there is external energy.

Of course we see them forming since when we look in space we are looking at the past. The farther we look, the farther in time we see.

[Yaroslav]

NASA documentation of the birth of stars.

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_1513.html

It's not a lie. The expansion of the universe has been one of the most easily recorded scientific measurements.

There is no question that universe is expanding. How does that prove Big Bang?

[PetiteParisienne]

There is no question that universe is expanding. How does that prove Big Bang?

Because it is expanding away from one central point.

[Panopticon]

There is no question that universe is expanding. How does that prove Big Bang?

Because it's an after-effect of the Big Bang. The expansion of the Universe that was seen with the Big Bang is still seen today, and the Universe is expanding at a faster rate than at that time and will continue to expand exponentially faster.

[Yaroslav]

Of course we see them forming since when we look in space we are looking at the past. The farther we look, the farther it time we see.

Big Bang theorists claim that universe is 20 billion years old. Alright, there are 50 TRILLION recorded stars in uni verse (one verse). Have we seen in 100 years a star FORMED? No! If Earth is 20 billion years old that means star formation must be rapid and new stars must pop up every day, that is elementary mathematics. Yes there is no recorded formation of star. They claim some stars are forming but there is no recorded formed star. New stars should pop up every second!

[Yaroslav]

Because it is expanding away from one central point.

Again, not all galaxies stem from central point.

[PetiteParisienne]

Big Bang theorists claim that universe is 20 billion years old. Alright, there are 50 TRILLION recorded stars in uni verse (one verse). Have we seen in 100 years a star FORMED? No! If Earth is 20 billion years old that means star formation must be rapid and new stars must pop up every day, that is elementary mathematics. Yes there is no recorded formation of star. They claim some stars are forming but there is no recorded formed star. New stars should pop up every second!

You completely ignored my link. Here it is again.

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_1513.html

[Yaroslav]

You completely ignored my link. Here it is again.

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_1513.html

You completely ignored what I said in the post. I said star formed! Have we EVER recorded a star formed (starting from beggining of formation to end)!? No! Basic mathematics tell us that stars should be popping up every second if universe is 20 billion years old. There has never been a record of star formed, therefore I don't believe stars are even forming! They are only exploding! This is Second Law of Thermodynamics!

[PetiteParisienne]

Again, not all galaxies stem from central point.

Every singly heavenly body is moving outward from one central point. Not branching from one.

[2Cool]

You completely ignored what I said in the post. I said star formed! Have we EVER recorded a star formed (starting from beggining of formation to end)!? No! Basic mathematics tell us that stars should be popping up every second if earth is 20 billion years old. There has never been a record of star formed, therefore I don't believe stars are even forming!

What do you mean record? We are talking about events that take millions of years to occur.

http://www.classzone.com/books/earth_science/terc/content/visualizations/es2807/es2807page01.cfm

Pictures of stars through their different stages.

[ficuscarica]

The outward movement of galaxies and other cosmic bodies strongly suggests that all matter originated from one central point. This is one of the best pieces of evidence of the Big Bang.

It is not. If you see someone driving from Vienna to Paris it does not mean he started to drive from Uzbekistan, just saying. ;)

[Yaroslav]

What do you mean record? We are talking about events that take millions of years to occur.

http://www.classzone.com/books/earth_science/terc/content/visualizations/es2807/es2807page01.cfm

Pictures of stars through their different stages.

If stars take millions of years to form then how do we have over 50 trillion stars in universe supposedly 20 billion years old?

[PetiteParisienne]

You completely ignored what I said in the post. I said star formed! Have we EVER recorded a star formed (starting from beggining of formation to end)!? No! Basic mathematics tell us that stars should be popping up every second if universe is 20 billion years old. There has never been a record of star formed, therefore I don't believe stars are even forming! They are only exploding! This is Second Law of Thermodynamics!

That link displays NASA's documentation of stars being formed. It is exactly what you're asking for. We can't show the entire life of one star because humans don't live billions of years. However, we have recorded different stars at various stages, from birth to collapse.

[Yaroslav]

That link displays NASA's documentation of stars being formed. It is exactly what you're asking for. We can't show the entire life of one star because humans don't live billions of years. However, we have recorded different stars at various stages, from birth to collapse.

Read post above.

[PetiteParisienne]

Read post above.

I did. I don't know how else to answer you. You are asking for proof of one single star being formed, and I provided you with proof of many stars being formed. What else do you want me to do? 2Cool also posted another source of proof for you.

[Breedingvariety]

The outward movement of galaxies and other cosmic bodies strongly suggests that all matter originated from one central point. This is one of the best pieces of evidence of the Big Bang.
Big Bang is total baloney. It contradicts scientific evidence and it defies logic.

-Nothing comes from nothing;
-Everything comes from something.

It is just another proof how much we are being lied to, when people are convinced universe came from nothing.

What was before time started? Even the question doesn't make sense. They must think we are stupid.

[Panopticon]

You completely ignored what I said in the post. I said star formed! Have we EVER recorded a star formed (starting from beggining of formation to end)!? No! Basic mathematics tell us that stars should be popping up every second if universe is 20 billion years old. There has never been a record of star formed, therefore I don't believe stars are even forming! They are only exploding! This is Second Law of Thermodynamics!

The bolded part is interesting. The center of the universe could theoretically be found at the point where the universe is the warmest. We know that the Universe was much warmer at its inception.


If stars take millions of years to form then how do we have over 50 trillion stars in universe supposedly 20 billion years old?

Because several stars can be created at one time? And I guess the rate of the creation of stars at a time would grow at the same time as the Universe does due to more room and exponential growth.

[Insuperable]

Yaroslav,
Isnt it funny that a priest came up with a Big Bang theory or is he a vatican evil priest?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître

[PetiteParisienne]

Big Bang is total baloney. It contradicts scientific evidence and it defies logic.

-Nothing comes from nothing;
-Everything comes from something.

It is just another proof how much we are being lied to, when people are convinced universe came from nothing.

What was before time started? Even the question doesn't make sense. They must think we are stupid.

I believe in a higher power. I don't believe that nothing came from nothing. My belief is that something/someone ignited the Big Bang.

[2Cool]

Big Bang is total baloney. It contradicts scientific evidence and it defies logic.

-Nothing comes from nothing;
-Everything comes from something.

It is just another proof how much we are being lied to, when people are convinced universe came from nothing.

What was before time started? Even the question doesn't make sense. They must think we are stupid.

Go read about quantum physics.

[Yaroslav]

I did. I don't know how else to answer you. You are asking for proof of one single star being formed, and I provided you with proof of many stars being formed. What else do you want me to do? 2Cool also posted another source of proof for you.

Not that. I asked how do you get 50 trillion stars in universe supposedly 20 billion years old if the process of "star formation" can't be completed in human's life time?

[Breedingvariety]

Because it is expanding away from one central point.
Universe is infinite and eternal. It is not expanding, nor contracting.

[Yaroslav]

Yaroslav,
Isnt it funny that a priest came up with a Big Bang theory or is he a vatican evil priest?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître

Catholics /=/ Christian

[PetiteParisienne]

Not that. I asked how do you get 50 trillion stars in universe supposedly 20 billion years old if the process of "star formation" can't be completed in human's life time?

Because many, many, many stars can be born at once. The formation of a star can happen in a relatively short period of time, but the LIFE of a star will not be carried out in any one human's lifetime.

[Yaroslav]

The bolded part is interesting. The center of the universe could theoretically be found at the point where the universe is the warmest. We know that the Universe was much warmer at its inception.



Because several stars can be created at one time? And I guess the rate of the creation of stars at a time would grow at the same time as the Universe does due to more room and exponential growth.

Yes but Big Bang says everything came from nothing!

Also evolution claims that life came from non-living thing, which is spontaneous generation disproved over 100 years ago.

[Panopticon]

Big Bang is total baloney. It contradicts scientific evidence and it defies logic.

-Nothing comes from nothing;
-Everything comes from something.

It is just another proof how much we are being lied to, when people are convinced universe came from nothing.

What was before time started? Even the question doesn't make sense. They must think we are stupid.

I guess you're religious. In which case you also believe that some creator came from nothing and had always existed and created something from nothing. Religion is no better than the Big Bang theory if not even worse on just this.

[ficuscarica]

PetiteParisienne, maybe the universe really expands from one central point, but its current expanison doesn´t proof that. Just because something moves into a direction it doesn´t mean it has always been moving in that direction. If I drive westwards it doesn´t mean that I started to drive as far east as possible. The universe could have started to stretch out from a state where it already was streched out.

[Breedingvariety]

That link displays NASA's documentation of stars being formed. It is exactly what you're asking for. We can't show the entire life of one star because humans don't live billions of years. However, we have recorded different stars at various stages, from birth to collapse.
The same NASA that faked moon landing. Give me a break.:rolleyes:

[PetiteParisienne]

Universe is infinite and eternal. It is not expanding, nor contracting.

The expansion of the universe has been proven many times. It does not negate its size.

[Yaroslav]

Because many, many, many stars can be born at once. The formation of a star can happen in a relatively short period of time, but the LIFE of a star will not be carried out in any one human's lifetime.

Where is any historical record of that ever happening?

[Panopticon]

PetiteParisienne, maybe the universe really expands from one central point, but its current expanison doesn´t proof that. Just because something moves into a direction it doesn´t mean it has always been moving in that direction. If I drive westwards it doesn´t mean that I started to drive as far east as possible. The universe could have started to stretch out from a state where it already was streched out.

Moving from point A to point B isn't expansion.


Yes but Big Bang says everything came from nothing!

Also evolution claims that life came from non-living thing, which is spontaneous generation disproved over 100 years ago.

Your religious beliefs (and all others) believe that nothing came from nothing.

[PetiteParisienne]

PetiteParisienne, maybe the universe really expands from one central point, but its current expanison doesn´t proof that. Just because something moves into a direction it doesn´t mean it has always been moving in that direction. If I drive westwards it doesn´t mean that I started to drive as far east as possible. The universe could have started to stretch out from a state where it already was streched out.

I am just relaying what astronomers and astrophysicists have discovered. There's no way that I can explain it as well as they can. The thing is that everything is expanding radially. The three dimensional symmetry of the movement is what suggests one original central point.

[2Cool]

Not that. I asked how do you get 50 trillion stars in universe supposedly 20 billion years old if the process of "star formation" can't be completed in human's life time?

We've never seen pics of the universe that old. The oldest pics we have are ~600 million years after the Big Bang.

[PetiteParisienne]

Where is any historical record of that ever happening?

The link I gave you is one of many.

[2Cool]

Where is any historical record of that ever happening?

How come the world is 6000 years old yet we have 7 billion humans :eek:

[Yaroslav]

How come the world is 6000 years old yet we have 7 billion humans :eek:

Because of human reproduction.

[Yaroslav]

Another question; supposedly every element evolved from hydrogen.

Where is the evidence? How is that possible?

[PetiteParisienne]

Nicknamed the Southern Pinwheel, M83 is undergoing more rapid star formation than our own Milky Way galaxy, especially in its nucleus. The sharp 'eye' of the Wide Field Camera 3 (WFC3) has captured hundreds of young star clusters, ancient swarms of globular star clusters, and hundreds of thousands of individual stars, mostly blue supergiants and red supergiants.

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_1513.html

[ficuscarica]

I am just relaying what astronomers and astrophysicists have discovered. There's no way that I can explain it as well as they can. The thing is that everything is expanding radially. The three dimensional symmetry of the movement is what suggests one original central point.

I understand that. But my point is the same: The radial expansion could also have simply started from everything being more closely together, but not one single point. To illustrate it: If a balloon becomes bigger by blowing air into it, it expands from one central point, too, but that point is not as small as a spec of dust, but a balloon without air. It is not logical to claim that everything must have been extremely close together only because it is radially expanding now. It is a possibility, but not the only possibility.