Banco Central Ibérico

[Raikaswinþs]

Paridad futuro Escudo/Futura peseta (misma moneda diferente nombre).

Propondria localizarlo en Lisboa.


dadme cada uno 3 ventajas y 3 inconvenientes de un banco central iberico. el futuro escudo y la futura peseta siendo efectivamente una misma moneda con diferente nombre (paridad 1-1)
pongamoslo en Lisboa.

la idea es que todos pensemos tanto en posibles oportunidades como en posibles desafíos

[Raikaswinþs]

empiezo:

oportunidades:

1 recuperar el control de nuestras divisas, poder depreciar para compensar la inflaccion y favorecer la inversion en un futuro en el que la desconfianza en la peninsula tras el euro batacazo va a hacer las inversiones externas pensarlo 3 veces antes de poner dinero en Iberia

2 ganar en competitividad y favorecer el transito de mercancias y de negocios entre 2 estados que ya son socios economicos prioritarios. Tras la ruptura de la eurozona y la posible salida de los PIIGS de la union, la unión puede hacer la fuerza

3 bien organizado puede convertirse en el aceite que engrase el motor de una futura federacion iberica de transito y comercio. Un area de libre asociacion de estados,


desafios:

1 Espana y Portugal van camino de convertirse en estados titeres del eje burocratico-financiero Bruselas-Frankfurt. La clase politica ibérica esta totalmente dispuesta a hacer todo lo que sea necesario para vender hasta el ultimo trozo de tierra al mejor postor, siguendo el ejemplo de Grecia. La completa reestrutcuracion de la clase politica costara sudar sangre y recibir palos

2 La devaluacion de la moneda producira un empobrecimiento a corto plazo de los ya empobrecidos Iberos. HAsta que nuestras economias se diversifiquen y recuperemos el control de nuestras industrias, el desempleo no empezara a bajar

3 Posible corralito, fuga de divisas, oligarcas ibericos saliendo con los bolsillos lenos tan rapido como puedan... va a requerir una gran coordinacion en estados que estan muy mal cordinados

[Damião de Góis]

Já temos a mesma moeda actualmente e não sei até que ponto tiramos partido disso. Acho que mais que uma moeda em comum, se a ideia é ajudarmo-nos uns aos outros então a implementação de uma política de cooperação a vários níveis seria mais positivo do que uma moeda em comum.

[Raikaswinþs]

Já temos a mesma moeda actualmente e não sei até que ponto tiramos partido disso. Acho que mais que uma moeda em comum, se a ideia é ajudarmo-nos uns aos outros então a implementação de uma política de cooperação a vários níveis seria mais positivo do que uma moeda em comum.

actualmente tenemos una moneda en comun, pero no un banco central en comun, ni una politica economica en comun, centrada en nuestra region (la peninsula)

tenemos una moneda en comun, pero no es nuestra moneda. Pronto Espana y POrtugal recuperaran sus respectivas currencies, con mas sangre y dolor del que nos hubieramos podido ahorrar. La pregunta es, no "if" but "when", y, una vez hecho, si seria conveniente crear una paridad peseta/escudo 1-1 (efectivamente convirtiendo al Banco Central de Portugal y el Banco central de Espana en un solo Banco Central Iberico, centrado en Lisboa, y prioritando los intereses economicos, mercantiles y sociales de la península ibérica)

pido que trateis de imaginaros ese escenario, y que busqueis tres ventajas y 3 inconvenientes. Si estais a favor, intentad poned incapie en los inconvenientes, y si estais en contra , en las ventajas

[Riki]

A propósito:

"Comissão Europeia quer salários mais baixos em Portugal"

"A Comissão Europeia quer uma maior agressividade na redução dos custos laborais, em Portugal. Segundo as recomendações de política económica feitas por Bruxelas, é preciso ir mais longe nas reformas estruturais.
Na reunião com os deputados portugueses, a troika já tinha dado a entender que existe uma ligação entre o crescimento do desemprego e a rigidez dos salários. Agora, a Comissão é clara na implementação de mais medidas no mercado laboral que reduzam os custos laborais.
Para Bruxelas, o Governo precisa de se concentrar nas suas "dificuldades de competitividade". Lembra que o Orçamento para 2012 não inclui os "planos iniciais de desvalorização fiscal" - redução das contribuições dos empregadores para a Segurança Social através de um corte na Taxa Social Única - o que torna ainda mais urgente a "rápida adoção de reformas estruturais" no mercado laboral e mercado de produto.
Medidas que deverão "reduzir os custos laborais, aumentar a flexibilidade, diminuir as barreiras à entrada e os lucros excessivos". Bruxelas avisa ainda que será necessária perseverança para "ultrapassar os interesses fortemente instalados que impedem as reformas".
Sobre o desemprego, já nos 14,9% e considerado o principal risco social para Portugal, a Comissão não apresenta recomendações, referindo apenas que o Governo deverá entregar ainda hoje um plano com medidas concretas, nomeadamente a reprogramação de fundos comunitários."


Estou mais que farto.

http://noticias.comunidade.com.pt/noticia-detalhe-media.asp?id=475374&t=Comiss%E3o-Europeia-quer-sal%E1rios-mais-baixos-em-Portugal

[Lábaru]

Yo le veo un fallo, lo de Lisboa. Pongámoslo en otro lugar neutral, como Santander.

De nombre no le pondría peseta porque es feo de cojones, le pondría Real.

[Riki]

Yo le veo un fallo, lo de Lisboa. Pongámoslo en otro lugar neutral, como Santander.

De nombre no le pondría peseta porque es feo de cojones, le pondría Real.

Porque não em Guimarães por exemplo?:)
Tambem podemos considerar neutro.

[Raikaswinþs]

Yo le veo un fallo, lo de Lisboa. Pongámoslo en otro lugar neutral, como Santander.

De nombre no le pondría peseta porque es feo de cojones, le pondría Real.



Tu esque eres un Cantabrón, pero santander y bilbao no serían malas opciones, como tampoco lo serían barcelona, valencia, malaga o porto.
Sin embargo creo que Lisboa se lleva la palma. Su posicion estrategica,es inmejorable como puerto del atlantico y su condicion de gran ciudad, con buenas comunicaciones con Madrid y excelentes infraestructuras. Hay incluso un proyecto de una conexion por ave (parado de momento por problemas de corrupción , subcontratas etc ).

El nombre es lo de menos. Peseta/Escudo/Real... mientras no sea algo como Iber

[Lábaru]

Tu esque eres un Cantabrón, pero santander y bilbao no serían malas opciones, como tampoco lo serían barcelona, valencia, malaga o porto.


Pero los cántabros(junto con los astures que ya están sobrevalorados) merecemos un reconocimiento y un premio como ese por haber sido unos machos ibéricos ejemplares desde los albores de la historia conocida, si no hubierais estado el resto de vinos,tapas y siestas y hubierais echado una mano ahora estaríamos todos hablando Celta y molaríamos la hostia más y no hace falta decir que tendríais las rodillas hechas polvo de rezar siete veces al día mirando a La Meca y la cabeza cocida metida en un turbante de no ser por nuestra ofensiva, casi insultante masculinidad, en cambio en Lisboa sólo tienen pastelillos de Belén, que sí, están ricos pero no es suficiente, bodegas y mariscos, pero para eso tenemos a los gallegos que no sirven para otra cosa.

Ya hablando en serio, vas a matar a sustos a Count con estas uniones fascistas e imperialistas ibéricas, lo que hay que hacer es desmembrar la península en pequeñas taifas totalmente independientes unas de otras, con monedas distintas y que cada una hable su lengua y plante sus embajadas en las demás para comunicarse, sin comerciar entre nosotros que para eso tenemos ahí arriba a los alemanes, para comprarles todo.

[Comte Arnau]

Ya hablando en serio, vas a matar a sustos a Count con estas uniones fascistas e imperialistas ibéricas,

Lol, eu não me senti identificado em nenhum momento com estas uniões entre occidentais. Boa sorte.

Catalunha deveria recuperar o croat, nossa moeda durante séculos.

[Raikaswinþs]

Nunca se hasta que punto sois sarcasticos y hasta que punto hablais en serio.

Miento. Si lo se :D

[Riki]

Pero los cántabros(junto con los astures que ya están sobrevalorados) merecemos un reconocimiento y un premio como ese por haber sido unos machos ibéricos ejemplares desde los albores de la historia conocida, si no hubierais estado el resto de vinos,tapas y siestas y hubierais echado una mano ahora estaríamos todos hablando Celta y molaríamos la hostia más y no hace falta decir que tendríais las rodillas hechas polvo de rezar siete veces al día mirando a La Meca y la cabeza cocida metida en un turbante de no ser por nuestra ofensiva, casi insultante masculinidad, en cambio en Lisboa sólo tienen pastelillos de Belén, que sí, están ricos pero no es suficiente, bodegas y mariscos, pero para eso tenemos a los gallegos que no sirven para otra cosa.

Ya hablando en serio, vas a matar a sustos a Count con estas uniones fascistas e imperialistas ibéricas, lo que hay que hacer es desmembrar la península en pequeñas taifas totalmente independientes unas de otras, con monedas distintas y que cada una hable su lengua y plante sus embajadas en las demás para comunicarse, sin comerciar entre nosotros que para eso tenemos ahí arriba a los alemanes, para comprarles todo.


"Se podes olhar, vê. Se podes ver, repara."

Saramago

[Riki]

So ao fim de quase 1000 Anos e que todos nos apercebemos.
Teimosia Ibérica.

http://www.abola.pt/img/fotos/mundos/lusa/principesasturias12.jpg

Príncipe Felipe lembra que ;«Espanhóis e portugueses precisam uns dos outros».

O príncipe Felipe de Borbón y Grécia, considerou que Portugal e Espanha podem beneficiar de uma «dimensão ibérica», que trará mais «força» aos dois países para enfrentar um futuro complexo, defendendo ainda que «espanhóis e portugueses precisam uns dos outros».

«A dimensão ibérica dará às duas nações mais força e maior capacidade perante o futuro complexo que se antevê para os nossos povos e para a Europa», disse o herdeiro do trono espanhol, manifestando «esperança» no futuro de Portugal e de Espanha, que deverá ser construído conjuntamente com os parceiros europeus.

«Espanhóis e portugueses precisam uns dos outros. Espanha deseja um Portugal próspero que enfrente o futuro com confiança, da mesma maneira que Portugal gosta de uma Espanha próxima e forte», disse o príncipe das Astúrias.

Por isso, defendeu o herdeiro da Coroa espanhola, os dois países sabem bem que devem aproveitar «as oportunidades de entendimento e cooperação, assim como desenhar uma estratégia comum para se aproximarem».

[Riki]

http://www.abola.pt/img/fotos/mundos/lusa/principesasturias14.jpg

Cavaco quer parceria estratégica com Espanha mais forte e activa.

O Presidente da República, Cavaco Silva, defendeu esta quinta-feira que a «parceria estratégica» entre Portugal e Espanha deve ser «mais forte e ativa», considerando ainda que os espanhóis têm «um significativo grau de desconhecimento» da realidade portuguesa.

«É precisamente num tempo de desafios, como aquele que atravessamos, que a nossa parceria estratégica deverá ser mais forte e ativa para que, aos necessários esforços de consolidação orçamental, possamos juntar verdadeiras políticas de crescimento económico e de criação de emprego», disse o chefe do Estado esta quinta-feira à noite à noite, antes do jantar oficial que ofereceu aos príncipes das Astúrias, Felipe e Letizia, no Palácio de Queluz.

Embora pense que o intercâmbio entre os dois países tenha conhecido uma evolução nítida nas últimas décadas, Cavaco Silva considera que «persiste um défice de conhecimento da realidade espanhola em Portugal e, igualmente, um significativo grau de desconhecimento, em Espanha, da realidade portuguesa».

Reforçando a necessidade de dar a conhecer «as reais capacidades» e «excelência» de Portugal a um mundo que muitas vezes está mais informado das dificuldades do País, o Presidente da República defendeu que Espanha se deve colocar «primeira linha desse esforço de divulgação».

[Comte Arnau]

Remember that another Felipe already claimed the Portuguese throne some centuries ago... :D

[Riki]

Remember that another Felipe already claimed the Portuguese throne some centuries ago... :D

Hehe.That's why It's difficult for me to trust.:D
And If the Son had been Smart like his Dad.Perhaps now we would all be one.

[Catrau]

Remember that another Felipe already claimed the Portuguese throne some centuries ago... :D

He claimed it in my hometown, here he was appointed in the court of Tomar. It wasn't that bad, on the contrary, it started another great leap and we became wealthier, prosperous and renown. After that event the city grew and many historical buildings were constructed and others restored. Here are some monuments of that era:

Several dependencies of the Christ Convent (UNESCO Heritage)
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Tomar/23438_1399175697924_1188234743_1179382_5860664_n.j pg

The famous aqueduct;
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Tomar/206534_1039210459018_1188234743_102442_4200_n.jpg

São Francisco church and all the surroundings of nowadays train station;
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Tomar/SaoFrancisco.jpg

That is to say, and you already know what is my opinion, nothing of this, scares or worries me. The key is to know ourselves better, it removes pre-conceptions. The story is not very helpful in some situations but it is helpful enough in others. What happened in my hometown is an excellent example of what can be good. Of course, Filipe I (of Portugal) was a magnanimous monarch and knew that to deal with Portugal and the Portuguese demanded a careful approach. Even Filipe III, was a key figure in my hometown history after defending the people against the almighty Cross of Christ Order for the possession of spaces downtown.

Filipe I (de Portugal) during the Live Stutues Festival on important pepole for my hometown.
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Tomar/filipe.jpg

What the future reserve to us will be quite different. Portugal will never cease to be Portugal, anything else would be a betrayal of our past and of our ancestors. To be what we are and prevail wasn’t just having to fight with the Castilian and the Spaniards, we had to fight the French, the Muslims, the Romans, the Carthaginians (Hannibal's father was killed in combat by the Lusitanian), etc. all that must be taken into account. We lost independence, sometimes for long periods, as was the case of the Roman occupation, but we always returned. What the future holds is not about occupations either territorial or political, it is about partnership, empowerment and management of common interests. I do not know if this is Iberism, I have some difficulty understanding some of these ideological concepts. On the other side of the border there are people like us. For me it is much more important to have neighbors that like me, that I know well, that help me and accept my help even if their house is bigger than mine, than to know that there are people in the world who speak the same language as me. We must get the best out of all our relationships but it seems to me that a strong connection to Spain will much more likely result in something profitable and lasting than a strong connection to the CPLP, that strikes me as utopian.
So, to my fellow Portuguese, you should have some vacations once in a while in Spain and see that, what really bonds us is who we are, we are much alike, some regions of Spain are way away from us culturally (say the south) but most of Spain is quite close to us as a whole.
So…. No Fear!!!

http://www.ttt.ipt.pt/

https://www.facebook.com/index.php?lh=9bb5eba15ea8e614486d190e19fd133f#!/pages/Tomar-Terra-Templ%C3%A1ria/255550116626

http://www.estatuasvivas.ipt.pt/default.asp

http://descobrir-tomar.blogs.sapo.pt/4187.html

http://gloriaishizaka.blogspot.pt/2012/01/portugal-tomar-parte-1.html

[Damião de Góis]

He claimed it in my hometown, here he was appointed in the court of Tomar. It wasn't that bad, on the contrary, it started another great leap and we became wealthier, prosperous and renown.

You mean your city, right?

[Catrau]

You mean your city, right?

Yes I was referring only to my hometown.
At national level, things weren't that nice but, as far as I know, they weren't that different in the rest of the country during the early stages of Filipe regency. Things changed after the Invincible Armada adventure in 1588 that really fucked up much of our own armada and the taxes that followed that disaster. And then with son and grandson things got worse and worse. We got dragged into a bloody war with the Dutch loosing nowadays Indonesia and the spice trade from there and frequent skirmishes with the French and even with our old allies, the English. Ya, things got ugly for us in those days.

[Riki]

He claimed it in my hometown, here he was appointed in the court of Tomar. It wasn't that bad, on the contrary, it started another great leap and we became wealthier, prosperous and renown. After that event the city grew and many historical buildings were constructed and others restored. Here are some monuments of that era:

Several dependencies of the Christ Convent (UNESCO Heritage)
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Tomar/23438_1399175697924_1188234743_1179382_5860664_n.j pg

The famous aqueduct;
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Tomar/206534_1039210459018_1188234743_102442_4200_n.jpg

São Francisco church and all the surroundings of nowadays train station;
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Tomar/SaoFrancisco.jpg

That is to say, and you already know what is my opinion, nothing of this, scares or worries me. The key is to know ourselves better, it removes pre-conceptions. The story is not very helpful in some situations but it is helpful enough in others. What happened in my hometown is an excellent example of what can be good. Of course, Filipe I (of Portugal) was a magnanimous monarch and knew that to deal with Portugal and the Portuguese demanded a careful approach. Even Filipe III, was a key figure in my hometown history after defending the people against the almighty Cross of Christ Order for the possession of spaces downtown.

Filipe I (de Portugal) during the Live Stutues Festival on important pepole for my hometown.
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Tomar/filipe.jpg

What the future reserve to us will be quite different. Portugal will never cease to be Portugal, anything else would be a betrayal of our past and of our ancestors. To be what we are and prevail wasn’t just having to fight with the Castilian and the Spaniards, we had to fight the French, the Muslims, the Romans, the Carthaginians (Hannibal's father was killed in combat by the Lusitanian), etc. all that must be taken into account. We lost independence, sometimes for long periods, as was the case of the Roman occupation, but we always returned. What the future holds is not about occupations either territorial or political, it is about partnership, empowerment and management of common interests. I do not know if this is Iberism, I have some difficulty understanding some of these ideological concepts. On the other side of the border there are people like us. For me it is much more important to have neighbors that like me, that I know well, that help me and accept my help even if their house is bigger than mine, than to know that there are people in the world who speak the same language as me. We must get the best out of all our relationships but it seems to me that a strong connection to Spain will much more likely result in something profitable and lasting than a strong connection to the CPLP, that strikes me as utopian.
So, to my fellow Portuguese, you should have some vacations once in a while in Spain and see that, what really bonds us is who we are, we are much alike, some regions of Spain are way away from us culturally (say the south) but most of Spain is quite close to us as a whole.
So…. No Fear!!!

http://www.ttt.ipt.pt/

https://www.facebook.com/index.php?lh=9bb5eba15ea8e614486d190e19fd133f#!/pages/Tomar-Terra-Templ%C3%A1ria/255550116626

http://www.estatuasvivas.ipt.pt/default.asp

http://descobrir-tomar.blogs.sapo.pt/4187.html

http://gloriaishizaka.blogspot.pt/2012/01/portugal-tomar-parte-1.html

Fear of what?
Who cares about CPLP?

[Riki]

Yes I was referring only to my hometown.
At national level, things weren't that nice but, as far as I know, they weren't that different in the rest of the country during the early stages of Filipe regency. Things changed after the Invincible Armada adventure in 1588 that really fucked up much of our own armada and the taxes that followed that disaster. And then with son and grandson things got worse and worse. We got dragged into a bloody war with the Dutch loosing nowadays Indonesia and the spice trade from there and frequent skirmishes with the French and even with our old allies, the English. Ya, things got ugly for us in those days.

And never got better again.
The Spaniards were not able to assimilate us into Spain.
But they managed to wipe out our Empire.

[Catrau]

Fear of what?
Who cares about CPLP?

Obviously fear of that approach, that's what we are talking about. And although Spain never frightened us, there is in the heart and soul of many, that fear for what, for them, is completely unknown, even if they think they understand their neighbors. We're talking about the Spaniards here.

Of course CPLP is another direction for joint ventures, especially economic, most of those Portuguese speaking countries are in the process of high economic growth and that means economic opportunities but for me it isn't more than that. The only connection I feel with Brazil is the language no other cultural overlap.

[Catrau]

And never got better again.
The Spaniards were not able to assimilate us into Spain.
But they managed to wipe out our Empire.


And never got better again.

Our true downfall came after the bloody french invasion, you should blame those bastards (of those days) and their fucking national hero: Napoleon (the first Hitler, the first anti-christ, the first mass murderer of Europeans)

The Spaniards were not able to assimilate us into Spain.
I agree with this.

But they managed to wipe out our Empire.
I think you're exaggerating but we did loose that very lucrative spice trade with the far east to the Dutch and the English

[Riki]

Obviously fear of that approach, that's what we are talking about. And although Spain never frightened us, there is in the heart and soul of many, that fear for what, for them, is completely unknown, even if they think they understand their neighbors. We're talking about the Spaniards here.

Of course CPLP is another direction for joint ventures, especially economic, most of those Portuguese speaking countries are in the process of high economic growth and that means economic opportunities but for me it isn't more than that. The only connection I feel with Brazil is the language no other cultural overlap.

What we need is capable People representing Portugal and the Portuguese.
Politicians with balls,that are able to say no to outside pressures.
We need Politicians that do not think that "their"People cannot make decisions.
What we need its a real Democracy.

[Riki]

And never got better again.

Our true downfall came after the bloody french invasion, you should blame those bastards (of those days) and their fucking national hero: Napoleon (the first Hitler, the first anti-christ, the first mass murderer of Europeans)

The Spaniards were not able to assimilate us into Spain.
I agree with this.

But they managed to wipe out our Empire.
I think you're exaggerating but we did loose that very lucrative spice trade with the far east to the Dutch and the English

And probably the one who started all this shit about Iberians not being White.

[Lábaru]

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n241/vivescortada/z1946gua.jpg?t=1229787295
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n241/vivescortada/z1946guarev.jpg?t=1229787329

[Riki]

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n241/vivescortada/z1946guarev.jpg?t=1229787329

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTCW1ITVB5OtWpMaYdtA_2u39c5eDyPL IslhA6KvWzQAFM8TSui:)

[Catrau]

What we need is capable People representing Portugal and the Portuguese.
Politicians with balls,that are able to say no to outside pressures.
We need Politicians that do not think that "their"People cannot make decisions.
What we need its a real Democracy.

Yes, you're right, but the discussion is not about that, it is about the Portuguese and and the Spanish get together and fight for their common interests and that discussion fell into some kind of primary anti-Spanish doctrine with which I profoundly disagree.

Spaniards/Castilians have been the enemy a few times, tried to gain control over us but we tried to do the same over them probably equal number of times, we had our Aljubarrota at Toro and people seems to forget that and also do not realize that being anti-Spanish is somehow recognizing some kind of inferiority, if you do not feel inferior you should look at the others eye in the eye and give them the credit that they deserve and wait equal treatment and forget those Estado Novo pronouncements which are typical from dictators: put themselves in the top of the toes to look at the others from above and basically state that “you’re shit and we rock” meanwhile their citizens starve and live with those lies inside their heads.

The first thing that you must never forget is that nowadays Spaniards aren’t guilty of their ancestor actions but even if you think they do, before being bitter against the Spaniards you should be bitter against nowadays Italians because after a 200 years war they finally achieved their aim and enslaved our ancestors. Before being bitter against the Spaniards you should be bitter against nowadays Germans because their ancestors ransacked our land and killed our forefathers. Before being bitter against Spaniards you should be bitter against nowadays Moroccans because they’ve occupied our land caused huge migrations, killed, raped and enslaved who they could. Before being bitter with Spaniards you should be bitter against nowadays French because they invaded our land for a detail of Napoleon Stubbornness, they rapped, looted, burned, killed at will like animals, got away with it and left out country completely destroyed and even treeless (that’s right even forests were burned). When I went to the Arc du Triumph, that shameless monument erected over a continent disgrace and ashes, one of napoleon victories is written with the word “Oporto”, I couldn’t feel more bitterness inside me. In Porto there was no French victory, only skirmishes, with the Portuguese redrawing to the left bank that was much more defendable. The entrance in the city of the French resulted in the pushing of the civilians to that famous barge bridge over the Douro that collapsed and killed an estimated number of 5000 - 10000 in seconds (2 attacks on the twin towers), this is a crime against humanity and a shame for France.
Now, you thing with me: when, during our fights with the Spaniards such kind of events ever occurred? Those fights had honor and the people was spared, there are no records of rapes or vandalization of churches or private property, I agree that some might have occurred but, that I know, it is not recorded. That happened because of that assumption that we share the same land and, in fact, we overlap – that’s it. After all there is this curiosity: the ones that killed us, rapped us, vandalized us in the past, were the same ones that did the exact same things to the Spaniards… even in that disaster we’ve been together.
So, for me, there is no other way, we will get better knowledge of our neighbors and we will be the best friends and we will face our problems together and we will maintain our soveranity, this as nothing to do with submission. Those who think that we are better alone, or it is better to close relations with the French are so wrong, we can do that also but they don’t give a shit about us (the same I do about them). I sincerely think that the Spanish haters are less and less every year. After all, the people is wise and this time there are no dictators making us live "back to back" and teaching us in primary school that Spain is evil. Those that are still in that past should get over it.

[2Cool]

I have a hard time trusting the intentions of Spain. Remember that Spain had plans to take over Portugal as early as the 20th century (Franco regime). Maybe as a sign of good faith they can give back Olivença and leave our Savage Islands alone? They could also give back some artifacts such as the armor of D. Sebastião while they're at it.:p

[Rouxinol]

So, for me, there is no other way, we will get better knowledge of our neighbors and we will be the best friends and we will face our problems together and we will maintain our soveranity, this as nothing to do with submission.

Why so much love for the Spanish? I don't love them, nor hate them, but I'm better off without them close by in certain matters. We've had an experience in the past and it didn't come out right. Spanish interests in Portugal always tend to favor their own butts in Madrid. Yes, they are bigger, they are more powerful. A contemporary example: imagine that TAP PORTUGAL gets privatized and is acquired by Iberia. Do you think that Iberia will keep TAP's hub in Lisbon? Wrong, they will move it right away to Barajas and centralize TAP's operations to South America and Africa there. It means you will have to fly to Madrid to take your next flight to Rio de Janeiro. They gain, we lose. There's no friends, only interests.

[Riki]

Yes, you're right, but the discussion is not about that, it is about the Portuguese and and the Spanish get together and fight for their common interests and that discussion fell into some kind of primary anti-Spanish doctrine with which I profoundly disagree.

Spaniards/Castilians have been the enemy a few times, tried to gain control over us but we tried to do the same over them probably equal number of times, we had our Aljubarrota at Toro and people seems to forget that and also do not realize that being anti-Spanish is somehow recognizing some kind of inferiority, if you do not feel inferior you should look at the others eye in the eye and give them the credit that they deserve and wait equal treatment and forget those Estado Novo pronouncements which are typical from dictators: put themselves in the top of the toes to look at the others from above and basically state that “you’re shit and we rock” meanwhile their citizens starve and live with those lies inside their heads.

The first thing that you must never forget is that nowadays Spaniards aren’t guilty of their ancestor actions but even if you think they do, before being bitter against the Spaniards you should be bitter against nowadays Italians because after a 200 years war they finally achieved their aim and enslaved our ancestors. Before being bitter against the Spaniards you should be bitter against nowadays Germans because their ancestors ransacked our land and killed our forefathers. Before being bitter against Spaniards you should be bitter against nowadays Moroccans because they’ve occupied our land caused huge migrations, killed, raped and enslaved who they could. Before being bitter with Spaniards you should be bitter against nowadays French because they invaded our land for a detail of Napoleon Stubbornness, they rapped, looted, burned, killed at will like animals, got away with it and left out country completely destroyed and even treeless (that’s right even forests were burned). When I went to the Arc du Triumph, that shameless monument erected over a continent disgrace and ashes, one of napoleon victories is written with the word “Oporto”, I couldn’t feel more bitterness inside me. In Porto there was no French victory, only skirmishes, with the Portuguese redrawing to the left bank that was much more defendable. The entrance in the city of the French resulted in the pushing of the civilians to that famous barge bridge over the Douro that collapsed and killed an estimated number of 5000 - 10000 in seconds (2 attacks on the twin towers), this is a crime against humanity and a shame for France.
Now, you thing with me: when, during our fights with the Spaniards such kind of events ever occurred? Those fights had honor and the people was spared, there are no records of rapes or vandalization of churches or private property, I agree that some might have occurred but, that I know, it is not recorded. That happened because of that assumption that we share the same land and, in fact, we overlap – that’s it. After all there is this curiosity: the ones that killed us, rapped us, vandalized us in the past, were the same ones that did the exact same things to the Spaniards… even in that disaster we’ve been together.
So, for me, there is no other way, we will get better knowledge of our neighbors and we will be the best friends and we will face our problems together and we will maintain our soveranity, this as nothing to do with submission. Those who think that we are better alone, or it is better to close relations with the French are so wrong, we can do that also but they don’t give a shit about us (the same I do about them). I sincerely think that the Spanish haters are less and less every year. After all, the people is wise and this time there are no dictators making us live "back to back" and teaching us in primary school that Spain is evil. Those that are still in that past should get over it.

Keyword-Portuguese.

[Catrau]

Keyword-Portuguese.

You said nothing.
I guess you haven't much to say but biased thoughts based on outdated ideas completely incompatible with Europe and with the organizations in which we operate.
Those tribal hates can only mean fear or submission.


Why so much love for the Spanish?

Do you think that Iberia will keep TAP's hub in Lisbon?

Yes I love Spain, and Sweden, and Germany and Italy... what's the problem about that? And I'm quite sure I love Portugal more than you.

About the Iberia thing, let me ask you, what do you think would happen if instead of Iberia, British Airways would buy TAP?? You are right that's business. So maybe the right thing to do is to our state don't sell, be smart, because nobody else would sell such an important state enterprise, sell the shitty brazilian maintenance and they will have profit.

I'm leaving to Rock in Rio now to see Xutos, wish me a nice day.:p:p

:D:D:D

[Riki]

You said nothing.
I guess you haven't much to say but biased thoughts based on outdated ideas completely incompatible with Europe and with the organizations in which we operate.
Those tribal hates can only mean fear or submission.



Yes I love Spain, and Sweden, and Germany and Italy... what's the problem about that? And I'm quite sure I love Portugal more than you.

About the Iberia thing, let me ask you, what do you think would happen if instead of Iberia, British Airways would buy TAP?? You are right that's business. So maybe the right thing to do is to our state don't sell, be smart, because nobody else would sell such an important state enterprise, sell the shitty brazilian maintenance and they will have profit.

I'm leaving to Rock in Rio now to see Xutos, wish me a nice day.:p:p

:D:D:D

Show me examples of my quotes that lead you to say such thing.
I'm in fact In favour of an "Union" with Spain.But you seem to think(And your Posts show It)That that's our only away out.When I think we have the capacity to do better. Hence my previous quote.

" What we need is capable People representing Portugal and the Portuguese.
Politicians with balls,that are able to say no to outside pressures.
We need Politicians that do not think that "their"People cannot make decisions.
What we need its a real Democracy."

And you're the one who talk to much about this.(not only on this thread)
It's not me that has nothing to say.

[Catrau]

I have a hard time trusting the intentions of Spain. Remember that Spain had plans to take over Portugal as early as the 20th century (Franco regime). Maybe as a sign of good faith they can give back Olivença and leave our Savage Islands alone? They could also give back some artifacts such as the armor of D. Sebastião while they're at it.:p

Come on 2Cool, we've discussed that earlier, Oliventinos want to be what they are, let them be it alone.

I knew nothing about that artifact, the armor of our fag king Sebastião, he didn't liked women, only god and Portugal, that's what really fucked us, not the Spaniards at least in the begining:D. Maybe we should give back to the Spaniards the luggage and the the field altar of Juan I lost in Aljubarrota and now in Braga, if I correctly recall.
That armor must be very important, I couldn't care less about it but i do love this one that is in Lagos and I even wrote a few words about it sometime ago in my facebook when I photographed it, I leave you with with this masterpiece by João Cutileiro, I hope you can appreciate it.

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Algarve/Algarve3.jpg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Algarve/Algarve38.jpg


Desde logo a ausência de um pedestal. Depois, a desproporcionalidade, os braços franzinos terminando nas mãos enormes e vazias. Desarmado, sem espada ou armadura. O rosto infantil e inseguro, o olhar fixo, vago, alienado e sem pensamento. Enfim, anti-zarco lhe chamou José-Augusto França e melhor designação não se lhe pode dar. É, de facto, uma estátua anti-estátua, como também lhe chamou o mesmo autor, referindo-se a este «boneco dado à nossa piedade e oferecido à nossa meditação.» Subversiva, mais do que afrontosa.

A estátua desafia os canones habituais representando o jovem rei morto em combate no norte de África com um busto de criança ou de mulher dando a ideia de que não seria um verdadeiro guerreiro, ideia que sai reforçada com a falta de armadura e com o pormenor anacrónico do capacete de argonauta alienígeno que mais parece de alguém vindo de um lugar alheio, distante no tempo e no espaço.

Agora tenho mesmo que ir, os Xutos esperam-me na Bela Vista.:D:D:D

[Raikaswinþs]

Yes I was referring only to my hometown.
At national level, things weren't that nice but, as far as I know, they weren't that different in the rest of the country during the early stages of Filipe regency. Things changed after the Invincible Armada adventure in 1588 that really fucked up much of our own armada and the taxes that followed that disaster. And then with son and grandson things got worse and worse. We got dragged into a bloody war with the Dutch loosing nowadays Indonesia and the spice trade from there and frequent skirmishes with the French and even with our old allies, the English. Ya, things got ugly for us in those days.

The ill fate of the Iberian union wasn't Spanish or Portuguese to blame. It was the Aubsburg monarchs (aided by the local reyezuelos, curas and noblecillos of half a hair). Rulling over Iberia but with interests lying elsewhere.

It wasn't the portuguese that got dragged into spanish matters, it was Iberians that got dragged into Aubsburg's.

The configuration of Iberian borders seems to me arbitrary (although not so much as the Comunidades Autonomas). Nevertheless I would not want the brother portuguese dragged into a Borbon monarchy. Maybe one day, if we become free and independent nations at last , and not just the private ground of mafias, corporations,pseudo-nobility and the political class...

All we can do now is fight alongside against the common enemy (que no es poco)


PS

I have personally spent all my chilhood and youth year's summers in a pueblo near portugal. Have crossed the border so many times. Have visited all the Portuguese tows (neighbouring southwest extremadura) at teh other side of the border (... And I have always liked and respected the portugese, as most of the other local folks did. Going from one spanish speaking pueblo to a portuguese speaking one never really felt like crossing a border.

At least in my experience going to Portugal doesn't count as "going abroad". You said "I was abroad to Portugal" and people will laugh at you most likely.

I guess that going to Porto would have been a more exotic experience than going to the neighbouring towns of extremadura. But only because we are considering it from the extremaduran perspective. It would also feel "refershingly different" to visit Vigo or A Coruna.

I don't know, would northern Portuguese think of visiting Huelva as a much more exoting trip than visiting Algarve?

[Damião de Góis]

The ill fate of the Iberian union wasn't Spanish or Portuguese to blame. It was the Aubsburg monarchs (aided by the local reyezuelos, curas and noblecillos of half a hair). Rulling over Iberia but with interests lying elsewhere.

It wasn't the portuguese that got dragged into spanish matters, it was Iberians that got dragged into Aubsburg's.

The configuration of Iberian borders seems to me arbitrary (although not so much as the Comunidades Autonomas). Nevertheless I would not want the brother portuguese dragged into a Borbon monarchy. Maybe one day, if we become free and independent nations at last , and not just the private ground of mafias, corporations,pseudo-nobility and the political class...

All we can do now is fight alongside against the common enemy (que no es poco)

They were all Habsbourgs at the time. Both yours and our dead king that provoked the union. They were uncle and nephew:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Philip_II_by_Alonso_S%C3%A1nchez_Coello.png/499px-Philip_II_by_Alonso_S%C3%A1nchez_Coello.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Rei_D._Sebasti%C3%A3o.jpg/520px-Rei_D._Sebasti%C3%A3o.jpg

I'm not sure how that happend in our case... some dubious marriages maybe.

[Rouxinol]

PS

I have personally spent all my chilhood and youth year's summers in a pueblo near portugal. Have crossed the border so many times. Have visited all the Portuguese tows (neighbouring southwest extremadura) at teh other side of the border (... And I have always liked and respected the portugese, as most of the other local folks did. Going from one spanish speaking pueblo to a portuguese speaking one never really felt like crossing a border.

At least in my experience going to Portugal doesn't count as "going abroad". You said "I was abroad to Portugal" and people will laugh at you most likely.

I guess that going to Porto would have been a more exotic experience than going to the neighbouring towns of extremadura. But only because we are considering it from the extremaduran perspective. It would also feel "refershingly different" to visit Vigo or A Coruna.

I don't know, would northern Portuguese think of visiting Huelva as a much more exoting trip than visiting Algarve?

I'm from Lisbon and I also don't count Spain as going abroad. I've been few times to Spain: Madrid, Santiago de Compostela, Vigo, Jabugo and the Spanish Pyrenees at Baqueira-Beret ski resort and I didn't come home with the feeling of being in another country/culture, despite the difference in language. Maybe that's why I tend to skip Spain when I plan to go abroad on vacation: it feels too familiar, so I postpone it on my list of places to go.

[Vasconcelos]

Crossing the border never feels like going abroad, it's just like here, but with a different language. Tavira is more similar to Huelva than Porto, for example, this goes for all the Raia.

[Comte Arnau]

Maybe that's why I tend to skip Spain when I plan to go abroad on vacation: it feels too familiar, so I postpone it on my list of places to go.

Great mistake, as every proud Iberian should know his Peninsula well before going abroad. Such diversity in landscapes, climates and proud cultures concentrated in a well-communicated space is second to none in the West, no matter how homogeneous many non-Iberians and some biased Iberians want us to look like.

[Vasconcelos]

Great mistake, as every proud Iberian should know his Peninsula well before going abroad.

I agree, which is why I have visited pretty much all of Spain and Portugal. I still intend to visit certain regions again, it's a wonderful place we've got here.

[Damião de Góis]

I don't know Spain at all... apart from reading Marca and watching TVE :D
I've been on a border town years ago, for a few days.. that was it. It was Mérida.

[Comte Arnau]

A Portuguese who doesn't know Lloret or Andorra is not a Portuguese.

[Vasconcelos]

I don't know Spain at all... apart from reading Marca and watching TVE :D
I've been on a border town years ago, for a few days.. that was it. It was Mérida.

You should visit it, it's worth it, even if it doesn't really feel foreign. I've been to all regions of continental Spain and I enjoyed all of it - except the heat of Andalucia during the summer, but that's me, I hate hot weather, although La Manga had "interesting" beaches on the small sea side.

[Damião de Góis]

A Portuguese who doesn't know Lloret or Andorra is not a Portuguese.

I also don't like sardines or red wine. Clearly there's something wrong with me :D

[Comte Arnau]

I also don't like sardines or red wine. Clearly there's something wrong with me :D

I've always told you. You're a Breton in denial. ;)

[Vasconcelos]

I also don't like sardines or red wine. Clearly there's something wrong with me :D

Well, me neither lol

[Comte Arnau]

Meu Deus... How can you be Iberians and not like red wine. Off the Peninsula right now, it's an order!! :stop00010:

[Damião de Góis]

Meu Deus... How can you be Iberians and not like red wine. Off the Peninsula right now, it's an order!! :stop00010:

It's very simple. Growing up i was always given the option to choose between carapaus or sardinhas. Carapaus are a much better fish in my opinion so i never got to like sardinhas. Same with red wine. I always had the option to go for better drinks, including better wines like green wine.

[Vasconcelos]

It's very simple. Growing up i was always given the option to choose between carapaus or sardinhas.

I dislike both lol..I like meat a lot better than fish. Beira Alta and Minho have some fantastic meat meals. I also love enchidos.


I always had the option to go for better drinks, including better wines like green wine.

Yep, green white wine is good, but I still like beer or cider better. I love Port wine, though.

[Damião de Góis]

I dislike both lol..I like meat a lot better than fish. Beira Alta and Minho have some fantastic meat meals.

I grew up with a mixture of dishes from Alentejo and fish from Setúbal...



Yep, green white wine is good, but I still like beer or cider better. I love Port wine, though.

I prefer beer too, it's my favorite alcoholic drink. I don't like Port that much.

[Vasconcelos]

I prefer beer too, it's my favorite alcoholic drink. I don't like Port that much.

Mine too, but I don't usually drink Portuguese beers unless I have no choice. I don't dislike them, though, I'm just a fan of ale, stout and wheat beers.

I drink Port once in a while, but only after lunch/dinner in a small glass. My mother brews home-made Port, it's suprisingly good and sweet.

[Damião de Góis]

Mine too, but I don't usually drink Portuguese beers unless I have no choice. I don't dislike them, though.


The only beer that tops Super Bock is Carlsberg :thumb001:
Sagres is not as good as those two but still good in my opinion.

[Vasconcelos]

What the hell, this was supposed to be about a Central Bank and we're discussing brews.

[Riki]

It's very simple. Growing up i was always given the option to choose between carapaus or sardinhas. Carapaus are a much better fish in my opinion so i never got to like sardinhas. Same with red wine. I always had the option to go for better drinks, including better wines like green wine.

Carapaus and Green Wine pretty much Portuguese.

[Riki]

Mine too, but I don't usually drink Portuguese beers unless I have no choice. I don't dislike them, though, I'm just a fan of ale, stout and wheat beers.

I drink Port once in a while, but only after lunch/dinner in a small glass. My mother brews home-made Port, it's suprisingly good and sweet.

And strong.Homemade Port Is.
Beer I prefer Imperial(Fino).Its always cold and "Alive".Super Bock.
I like stout beer's like Guiness and also like flavoured cider.

[Raikaswinþs]

When iced cold even Iberian beer and donkey piss taste good. Let Iberians focus on their wine , and bring us a good brown ale!

[Comte Arnau]

You Western PostCelts are interesting people... :icon_neutral:

[Catrau]

Hell, this discussion evolved.. great.
I'll be back tomorrow, I'm still too tired from yesterday.

Shity Bruce Springsteen made us wait almost 1,30H I went back home when he was starting. Going back to work today was a challenge.

See you tomorrow fellow Iberians.:D:D:D:D
I know some people that is going to be mad..:p:p

[Catrau]

Great mistake, as every proud Iberian should know his Peninsula well before going abroad. Such diversity in landscapes, climates and proud cultures concentrated in a well-communicated space is second to none in the West, no matter how homogeneous many non-Iberians and some biased Iberians want us to look like.

I agree very much with this Count idea, it is really a world to discover. Before I jumped to the rest of Europe I've explored as much as I could Iberia and I still do. I've travelled in Portugal from north to south too many times and if I correctly recall, I've only missed 3 Province Capitals in continental Spain: Cuenca, Teruel and Pamplona,being the last one a major miss. I'll go there sooner or later.

Hey, maybe I can say that I know Spain better than many Spaniards.
I just focused this aspect of my personal life to show some of my dearest fellows in this discussion that before being a "Spanish Lover" I'm an interested traveller. Interested in everything that surrounds me, either social or physical landscapes.

I'm winking now, too tired.:rolleyes2:

[Comte Arnau]

Just two things.

1. It's a pity you missed the Boss. Never seen a man at that age do what bands three times younger should learn to do: give it all for three hours.


2. If you ever visit Teruel province, don't miss the Albarracin at dusk or dawn. Some unique Iberian hidden corners just can't be experienced anywhere else in the world.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5350/6950271298_1246a58b16_z.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6035/6371712703_2c7c5c5094_z.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WC16VdojNQ8/TJi6pZ6UCyI/AAAAAAAAAJ4/by-lINIm44I/s1600/vistas+de+albarracin2.jpg
http://www.raicesdeeuropa.com/wp-content/uploads/albarrac%C3%ADn-amanecer.jpg

[Catrau]

Entrevista muito interessante ao escritor argentino Marsilio Cassoti que escreveu 4 biografias de rainhas portuguesas e espanholas.

Gosto particularmente das considerações finais relativamente à influência das instituições e dos políticos na forma como se ensina e escreve a história:

Parte I (32 minutos):
http://sicmulher.sapo.pt/programas/entre-nos/2012/10/22/marsilio-cassotti---parte-1

Parte II (22 minutos):
http://sicmulher.sapo.pt/programas/entre-nos/2012/10/22/marsilio-cassotti---parte-2

[Catrau]

Understandig the finantial crisis:

qqUGoVez8xg

[Transmontano]

2. If you ever visit Teruel province, don't miss the Albarracin at dusk or dawn. Some unique Iberian hidden corners just can't be experienced anywhere else in the world.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5350/6950271298_1246a58b16_z.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6035/6371712703_2c7c5c5094_z.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WC16VdojNQ8/TJi6pZ6UCyI/AAAAAAAAAJ4/by-lINIm44I/s1600/vistas+de+albarracin2.jpg
http://www.raicesdeeuropa.com/wp-content/uploads/albarrac%C3%ADn-amanecer.jpg

Those are freaking cool looking. Like a fairytale. Saved to my desktop. Thank you!

I've only ever been to Verim in Galicia and not for long.