Macedonian liberals showed the door when Greece chose to play hardball with country

[poiuytrewq0987]

Relations between the Republic of Greece and the Republic of Macedonia are a case in point. After the violent break-up of the former Yugoslav Federation in 1991, Greece was faced with the prospect of living with an independent Slav-Macedonian state on its northern border. Greek politics could not, some eighteen years ago, accept the existence of a separate Macedonian national identity, even less the existence of such an identity as a Greek minority. Since Greeks believe that the Macedonian name is part of their historical heritage and should therefore not be used to identify another nation, the new identity was perceived as too challenging to the cohesiveness of the Greek national identity. So much so that the new state was considered a threat to Greek national security and was dealt with accordingly. On the domestic front, nationalist emotions were stirred; on the international front, a crippling economic embargo was imposed and diplomatic war was declared on the new state.

This had its effects, both internationally and domestically, on the new Balkan state. Because of opposition from Greece, Macedonia was taken off the potentially fast track towards Union membership and put back on the Balkan road. This despite the fact that it was the only former Yugoslav republic that achieved independence through a legal process of peaceful self-determination and whose independence, together with Slovenia, was received positively and recognized by the Arbitration Commission of the EU. On the domestic front, Greek nationalism dealt a severe blow to liberal thought in Macedonia and opened the doors to nationalist interpretations of its history and identity. Nationalists, as you know, usually perceive nations as ethnically pure human rockets that travel from the depths of history to the present day: they care little about the actual waves of history that move borders and peoples and even less for the fact that modern nations are a recent product of world society.
-Denko Maleski

http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2009-01-16-maleski-en.html

ujCUOveqhpw

[RoyBatty]

What's your point?

FYROM is a threat to Greek National Security. It's obvious to anybody except a retard that the Skopjens will eventually lay claim to parts of Northern Greece by using the "Macedonia" label and Alexander Cult Identity as their excuse. (Possibly even supported by USA, Turks and other Balkans special interests groups)

It's not rocket science.

The saying "This town ain't big enough for the both of us" springs to mind. You cannot have two "Macedonias", it doesn't work. It's an accident waiting to happen.

[poiuytrewq0987]

What's your point?

FYROM is a threat to Greek National Security. It's obvious to anybody except a retard that the Skopjens will eventually lay claim to parts of Northern Greece by using the "Macedonia" label and Alexander Cult Identity as their excuse. (Possibly even supported by USA, Turks and other Balkans special interests groups)

It's not rocket science.

The saying "This town ain't big enough for the both of us" springs to mind. You cannot have two "Macedonias", it doesn't work. It's an accident waiting to happen.

First of all, to think of Macedonia as a genuine military threat to Greece is laughable.

Second of all, if Macedonia liberals weren't shown the door then nationalists wouldn't have won power and exacerbated the problem today. The "Alexander cult" wouldn't exist today. It's precisely because of Greece's actions Macedonia has been pushed so far right and anti-pretty much everyone in region. If Greece had chosen to recognize the country like any 21st century nation should then Macedonia would quite possibly reunite with Bulgaria but Greece benefits more from Balkans being unstable, Macedonia remain isolated and not part of Bulgaria, etc... anyhow. Samaras even admitted he was working towards the destabilization of Macedonia by backing Albanian terrorists and keeping it isolated from international organizations.


At 1:44, Samaras says: “… I don’t know exactly when, but I believe that soon Skopia (sic) will no longer exist as a unified subject, that means that time is on our side, practically, it is on our side. Because I think they won’t be able to maintain unity… ”

Thus, Samaras reveals Greeces’s real plan: to de-stabilize Macedonia politically, in hopes that it will cease to exist. This involves denying entry into protection treaties like NATO, attacking the Macedonian name, identity and cultural symbols, and creating border incidents, like the three-and-half-year long illegal trade embargo of the 90s.

At 3:20, Samaras admits that even the prospect of a Greater Albania, with 6 million inhabitants, would not pose any genuine security threat to the Greek state: “…Is there a danger for Greece of a Greater Albania? I don’t raise an alarm for danger… if Albania grows from 4 million to 6 million, nothing will change. Greece, as a power… its development, its population… We are more numerous, more powerful and much more developed, and there is absolutely nothing to fear from them.”

In this quote, Samaras openly undermines the Greek government’s “irredentism” argument, by admitting that not even a Greater Albania can threaten Greece, much less the Republic of Macedonia, a third of the size of what a greater Albania would be.

The current Greek position is not to invade Macedonia itself. Instead, elements in the Greek government are interested in getting the Albanians to do the dirty work for them, in hopes that Macedonia will one day cease to exist.

The political leader of the largest Albanian party in Macedonia, DUI, is Ali Ahmeti, a former NLA terrorist who has openly stated he cannot defend the peace in Macedonia, despite the fact that his party controls the Ministry of Defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnCrRXJAJeU

[poiuytrewq0987]

One more thing, Macedonians claiming South Macedonia is not exactly news. Bulgarians have claimed the region for the longest time because we were the dominant ethnic group for a good while until those nice Pontic Greeks rediscovered their ancient Macedonian identity and moved to Macedonia. The treaty of San Stefano was exactly designed to include all ethnic Bulgarians in one country. You can see much of it included almost all of Macedonia except Solun and Haldiki.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Bulgaria-SanStefano_-%281878%29-byTodorBozhinov.png/769px-Bulgaria-SanStefano_-%281878%29-byTodorBozhinov.png

[Queen B]

First of all, to think of Macedonia as a genuine military threat to Greece is laughable.

Second of all, if Macedonia liberals weren't shown the door then nationalists wouldn't have won power and exacerbated the problem today. The "Alexander cult" wouldn't exist today. It's precisely because of Greece's actions Macedonia has been pushed so far right and anti-pretty much everyone in region. If Greece had chosen to recognize the country like any 21st century nation
If Fyrom had decided to use any other name than this specific one and if Fyrom had decided to start the constitution with no terriotorial claims, we wouldn't have a problem in the first place and everything would go smooth.


should then Macedonia would quite possibly reunite with Bulgaria but Greece benefits more from Balkans being unstable,
Quite the opossite, actually.

[RoyBatty]

First of all, to think of Macedonia as a genuine military threat to Greece is laughable.


To think that Albanians in Kosovo were a threat to Serbia was equally laughable and we all know what happened next, don't we?

FYROM itself is nothing but that won't stop its rulers from dreaming big dreams and should they get a bit of help from their friends...... all bets are off and anything is possible.



Second of all, if Macedonia liberals weren't shown the door then nationalists wouldn't have won power and exacerbated the problem today. The "Alexander cult" wouldn't exist today. It's precisely because of Greece's actions Macedonia has been pushed so far right and anti-pretty much everyone in region. If Greece had chosen to recognize the country like any 21st century nation should then Macedonia would quite possibly reunite with Bulgaria but Greece benefits more from Balkans being unstable, Macedonia remain isolated and not part of Bulgaria, etc... anyhow. Samaras even admitted he was working towards the destabilization of Macedonia by backing Albanian terrorists and keeping it isolated from international organizations.

You're making silly excuses and now blaming Greece for what is clearly a domestic problem with local maniacs. Maybe you could blame Greece for the weather next, or losing the football.

The thought of FYROM tying up with Bulgaria is equally laughable. FYROM's hate Bulgarians until the day they need EU Passports. Then suddenly they remember about their Bulgarian grandparents.

Look on youtube, there are plenty of funny videos of FYROM tough guys training to "kill Serbs, Albanians, Bulgarians and Greeks". Obviously this must all be Greece's fault as well. :rolleyes2:

[poiuytrewq0987]

To think that Albanians in Kosovo were a threat to Serbia was equally laughable and we all know what happened next, don't we?


What caused these people to win elections? Greece. Simple as that. Greece's actions turned Macedonians to far right for answer to their problems.



FYROM itself is nothing but that won't stop its rulers from dreaming big dreams and should they get a bit of help from their friends...... all bets are off and anything is possible.


Hey smart guy, Maleski clearly said if Macedonia was respected and treated with dignity by Greece then it surely would have prevented the once-fringe right-wingers from taking power and dealt with its problems accordingly and quite possibly unite with Bulgaria via a referendum. But you are treating this issue like one huge ZOG conspiracy, doesn't make you look like a serious poster at all.

[Queen B]

Look on youtube, there are plenty of funny videos of FYROM tough guys training to "kill Serbs, Albanians, Bulgarians and Greeks". Obviously this must all be Greece's fault as well. :rolleyes2:
Everything is Greece's fault according to these friendly and good neighbors
:rotfl:

[RoyBatty]

What caused these people to win elections? Greece. Simple as that. Greece's actions turned Macedonians to far right for answer to their problems.


Everything is Greece's fault.
When a FYROM has a headache, it is Greece's fault.
When the Skopjens spends the National Budget on building Aleksandr Statues as high as Mt Olympus, it is Greece's fault.

I know I know... it's Greece's fault! :cool:



Hey smart guy, Maleski clearly said if Macedonia was respected and treated with dignity by Greece then it surely would have prevented the once-fringe right-wingers from taking power and dealt with its problems accordingly and quite possibly unite with Bulgaria via a referendum.

Last time I checked Maleski wasn't yet the all-knowing and all-seeing deity. He has his views, he has his agendas. There's obvious schoolboy science and methods to his rhetoric.

His views and agendas are to absolve FYROM from any sin (because FYROM can per definition only ever be virtuous and blameless for everything and anything) and to present Greece as the Great Satan. The Evil One who ruined Utopia and Paradise.



But you are treating this issue like one huge ZOG conspiracy, doesn't make you look like a serious poster at all.

ZOG certainly did a number on Serbia with regards to Kosovo. Maybe one day it would suit them to do the same thing to Greece. You never know ;)
They've done it before. They have an established track record.

Just ask the Armenians and Serbs.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Everything is Greece's fault.
When a FYROM has a headache, it is Greece's fault.
When the Skopjens spends the National Budget on building Aleksandr Statues as high as Mt Olympus, it is Greece's fault.

I know I know... it's Greece's fault! :cool:

You're an idiot, plain and simple. It IS a fact that Greece's actions PUSHED Macedonia to the far right. The right-wing was only a fringe element before. Stop ignoring this.



Last time I checked Maleski wasn't yet the all-knowing and all-seeing deity. He has his views, he has his agendas. There's obvious schoolboy science and methods to his rhetoric.


Coming from an unknown forum poster with zero credibility?


His views and agendas are to absolve FYROM from any sin (because FYROM can per definition only ever be virtuous and blameless for everything and anything) and to present Greece as the Great Satan. The Evil One who ruined Utopia and Paradise.


No. Using terms like "Great Satan" or "The Evil One" only makes you look more ridiculous btw.


ZOG certainly did a number on Serbia with regards to Kosovo. Maybe one day it would suit them to do the same thing to Greece. You never know ;)
They've done it before. They have an established track record.

Just ask the Armenians and Serbs.

Go see a doctor, you need anti-psychosis pills.

[Queen B]

You're an idiot, plain and simple. It IS a fact that Greece's actions PUSHED Macedonia to the far right. The right-wing was only a fringe element before. Stop ignoring this.

Well, its kind the opposite. Fyrom's actions pushed Greece :cool:

[El Gre]

posted by Sebastos .You're an idiot, plain and simple. It IS a fact that Greece's actions PUSHED Macedonia to the far right. The right-wing was only a fringe element before. Stop ignoring this.

Nonsense, they were a new nation who needed an identity. It was bound to happen. You have a population who descend from illiterate ox pulling slav speaking peasants, who were by far the most UNIMPORTANT people in Macedonia who are now trying to feel important. Top it off with a Rabid diaspora and it spelled disaster. Look at guys like Sokol and Vojnik, you think they want to tell people in Ostralija that thier grandads tilled fields and thier babos knitted shareni chopari . No they want to tell them they conquered the world. Nobody wants to admit the truth that you descend from some plundering Slavs so they had to invent this history like Maleski says.

[RoyBatty]

You're an idiot, plain and simple


So... you already lost your argument here and you've regressed to the expected personal attacks instead of raising your game. But seeing as your cause and claims are lost ones anyway that could be difficult, LOL!!!! :D


It IS a fact that Greece's actions PUSHED Macedonia to the far right. The right-wing was only a fringe element before. Stop ignoring this.


No, that's your and Maleski's rhetoric. Which of course doesn't necessarily make it fact. Learn the difference. Educate yourself :thumb001:



Coming from an unknown forum poster with zero credibility?


A quick look at your "who is an unknown forum poster" theory.

RoyBatty: Join Date 03-14-2009
Sebastos: Join Date: 01-05-2010

Oops... it seems that you're the newbie around here. :rolleyes:

As for credibility... just read your own thread for confirmation that it is zero

*snigger*



No. Using terms like "Great Satan" or "The Evil One" only makes you look more ridiculous btw.


Ridiculous? No.
Makes you cry? Yes.


Go see a doctor, you need anti-psychosis pills.

Stop projecting, chillax.... look at some pretty girls..... feel happy.

[Crn Volk]

Nonsense, they were a new nation who needed an identity. It was bound to happen. You have a population who descend from illiterate ox pulling slav speaking peasants, who were by far the most UNIMPORTANT people in Macedonia who are now trying to feel important. Top it off with a Rabid diaspora and it spelled disaster. Look at guys like Sokol and Vojnik, you think they want to tell people in Ostralija that thier grandads tilled fields and thier babos knitted shareni chopari . No they want to tell them they conquered the world. Nobody wants to admit the truth that you descend from some plundering Slavs so they had to invent this history like Maleski says.

But you are a decendent of those same tribes, that is why you know our language. However you pretend to be greek...that is a grkoman....

[Crn Volk]

So... you already lost your argument here and you've regressed to the expected personal attacks instead of raising your game. But seeing as your cause and claims are lost ones anyway that could be difficult, LOL!!!! :D



No, that's your and Maleski's rhetoric. Which of course doesn't necessarily make it fact. Learn the difference. Educate yourself :thumb001:



A quick look at your "who is an unknown forum poster" theory.

RoyBatty: Join Date 03-14-2009
Sebastos: Join Date: 01-05-2010

Oops... it seems that you're the newbie around here. :rolleyes:

As for credibility... just read your own thread for confirmation that it is zero

*snigger*



Ridiculous? No.
Makes you cry? Yes.



Stop projecting, chillax.... look at some pretty girls..... feel happy.

OK Roy, not sure what your interest is here, but it looks like you are a greek to me, or at least part-greek. what ever the case may be, you are entitled to your opinion. You should remember that greece extended it's borders north in 1913 with the help of western powers. Kosovo was not the precedent here.

[Xenomorph]

To those who don't like Macedonia/Fyrom, if they explicitly gave up all claims to Greek territory, would you be willing to recognize their right to call themselves whatever they please?

[Crn Volk]

To those who don't like Macedonia/Fyrom, if they explicitly gave up all claims to Greek territory, would you be willing to recognize their right to call themselves whatever they please?

This was done in 1993. Macedonia changed it's flag and amended it's constitution to appease the greeks. This did not help, and we are still in the same mess after 20 years.

[Queen B]

This was done in 1993. Macedonia changed it's flag and amended it's constitution to appease the greeks. This did not help, and we are still in the same mess after 20 years.
Yeap, you changed your flag, and you renamed your stadiums and highways to Greek heroes. Oh well. :coffee:

[RoyBatty]

To those who don't like Macedonia/Fyrom, if they explicitly gave up all claims to Greek territory, would you be willing to recognize their right to call themselves whatever they please?

It would never work.

Even if this was negotiated in good faith by all parties today, tomorrow somebody would come along and start up the argument all over again. They'll say that "so and so had no right to make such arrangements" or "that they betrayed our people" and that "our lands must be liberated from Greek oppression".

Unless you remove all doubt, ambiguity and possible excuses to launch fresh claims you will forever have the Sword of Damocles hanging above your head.

That's just the way it is unless you make 110% sure and leave no room for future maneuvers. When you give somebody a finger they will grab the arm.

[RoyBatty]

Uh-oh..... the 1992 map of "Macedonia". Notice that this fantasy version includes Skopje (in FYROM), Thessalonika (in Greece), Kozani (in Greece), Katerini (in Greece), Kavala (in Greece) etc.

http://macedonia-evidence.org/images/image004.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

Uh-oh..... the 1992 map of "Macedonia". Notice that this fantasy version includes Skopje (in FYROM), Thessalonika (in Greece), Kozani (in Greece), Katerini (in Greece), Kavala (in Greece) etc.

http://macedonia-evidence.org/images/image004.jpg

Uhh, not fantasy. Macedonia borders have been defined since the 18th century and you even can see the predecessor of it via the Kosovo, Bitola and Solun provinces.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Salonica_Vilayet%2C_Ottoman_Empire_%281900%29.svg/800px-Salonica_Vilayet%2C_Ottoman_Empire_%281900%29.svg. png

[Crn Volk]

It would never work.

Even if this was negotiated in good faith by all parties today, tomorrow somebody would come along and start up the argument all over again. They'll say that "so and so had no right to make such arrangements" or "that they betrayed our people" and that "our lands must be liberated from Greek oppression".

Unless you remove all doubt, ambiguity and possible excuses to launch fresh claims you will forever have the Sword of Damocles hanging above your head.

That's just the way it is unless you make 110% sure and leave no room for future maneuvers. When you give somebody a finger they will grab the arm.


The greeks have been looking for guarantees for 1,500 years. Newsflash: there are none. This is the balkans, and claim vs counter-claim will always exist. Outside influences have only made things worse.

[Xenomorph]

It would never work.

Even if this was negotiated in good faith by all parties today, tomorrow somebody would come along and start up the argument all over again. They'll say that "so and so had no right to make such arrangements" or "that they betrayed our people" and that "our lands must be liberated from Greek oppression".

Unless you remove all doubt, ambiguity and possible excuses to launch fresh claims you will forever have the Sword of Damocles hanging above your head.

That's just the way it is unless you make 110% sure and leave no room for future maneuvers. When you give somebody a finger they will grab the arm.

There will always be someone complaining, that's true. But through sensible political arrangements and the promotion of a new national identity, the irredentists can be marginalized and their ideas seen as extremist rhetoric. I see this whole issue as both sides acting like petty idiots with unrealistic demands; if those pushing such demands are made to look like fools in the eyes of the general public, then real progress can be made.

There needs to be some kind common sense compromise. Macedonia needs to accept that the lands bordering the Aegean are Greek now and will stay Greek in the future, and that trying to portray those lands as their's only makes them look unstable and dangerous. Greece on the other hand needs to stop worrying about the ethnic identity of people who lived over two millenia ago and should realize that it is not their business what other countries call themselves or what symbols are put on their flags.

Do I think that this is going to lead to a war? No, but as of the moment both countries come across as incredibly immature in this whole matter.

[Crn Volk]

There will always be someone complaining, that's true. But through sensible political arrangements and the promotion of a new national identity, the irredentists can be marginalized and their ideas seen as extremist rhetoric. I see this whole issue as both sides acting like petty idiots with unrealistic demands; if those pushing such demands are made to look like fools in the eyes of the general public, then real progress can be made.

There needs to be some kind common sense compromise. Macedonia needs to accept that the lands bordering the Aegean are Greek now and will stay Greek in the future, and that trying to portray those lands as their's only makes them look unstable and dangerous. Greece on the other hand needs to stop worrying about the ethnic identity of people who lived over two millenia ago and should realize that it is not their business what other countries call themselves or what symbols are put on their flags.

Do I think that this is going to lead to a war? No, but as of the moment both countries come across as incredibly immature in this whole matter.

Politicians of both countries have used and continue to use the issue for their own political purposes. They stoke the flames of nationalism when it suits them. I'm not sure the public is tired of it though.

[Queen B]

Uhh, not fantasy. Macedonia borders have been defined since the 18th century and you even can see the predecessor of it via the Kosovo, Bitola and Solun provinces.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Salonica_Vilayet%2C_Ottoman_Empire_%281900%29.svg/800px-Salonica_Vilayet%2C_Ottoman_Empire_%281900%29.svg. png

Map - Salonic Villayet.

Greece on the other hand needs to stop worrying about the ethnic identity of people who lived over two millenia ago and should realize that it is not their business what other countries call themselves or what symbols are put on their flags.
Would you like if someone f.e. use your photo in his/her profile on facebook?

Politicians of both countries have used and continue to use the issue for their own political purposes. They stoke the flames of nationalism when it suits them. I'm not sure the public is tired of it though.
Our public is tired of your country's actions.

[Crn Volk]

Map - Salonic Villayet.

Would you like if someone f.e. use your photo in his/her profile on facebook?

Our public is tired of your country's actions.

Dito

[ikki]

The greeks have been looking for guarantees for 1,500 years. Newsflash: there are none. This is the balkans, and claim vs counter-claim will always exist. Outside influences have only made things worse.

nuclear bombs are always a guarantee.

[RoyBatty]

There will always be someone complaining, that's true. But through sensible political arrangements and the promotion of a new national identity, the irredentists can be marginalized and their ideas seen as extremist rhetoric.


You're trying to seem reasonable. Too reasonable. It just doesn't work this way in real life or the school playground. (Unless teacher and the cops are standing around enforcing pleasantries).

Your only guarantee of maintaining pleasantries is to have a big big stick at hand.


I see this whole issue as both sides acting like petty idiots with unrealistic demands; if those pushing such demands are made to look like fools in the eyes of the general public, then real progress can be made.


How so?

21 years ago the issue never even existed. Now the newbie on the block hijacks itself a name, a history (with USA support) and imagines it is owed certain territory because of this hijacked name and history.


There needs to be some kind common sense compromise. Macedonia.........


Macedonia is Greek, it always was Greek. I mean, all you have to do is some basic research on Ancient history. Calling the Skopjens "Macedonians" only confuses the issue (which is what they trade on).



.......needs to accept that the lands bordering the Aegean are Greek now


But it was always (for all intents and purposes and known records) Greek. It cannot become "Greek now". It's not as if somebody robbed the Skopjens.



and will stay Greek in the future, and that trying to portray those lands as their's only makes them look unstable and dangerous.


Like the FYROM poster said, this is the Balkans and they love fighting and grabbing things off one another. And living on the edge is where it's at for them. :D

From time to time foreign Imperialists (Americans, Turks, British etc) find it convenient to back one side over the other for personal gains so whenever this is the case the media swings into action, portrays one side in a negative light and then the Cavalry go marching in.



Greece on the other hand needs to stop worrying about the ethnic identity of people who lived over two millenia ago and should realize that it is not their business what other countries call themselves or what symbols are put on their flags.


You may as well tell a J00, Chinese or Albanian that they need to stop worrying about their ethnic identity. Greece isn't the USA, the great melting pot of multiculturalism.

How can it not be their business what symbols other countries start using? The implications are obvious to anybody but an amoeba. Those symbols are related to an identity, to a history. Those symbols, identity, history all add up to create and invent a legend which includes territorial expansion, as shown by that map example and as confirmed by our Skopjen fellow poster.

In a hypothetical situation this is no different to the Aztlans laying claim to the Southern USA. In a hypothetical situation, if the Aztlans had a realistic chance (they don't) of grabbing a sizeable chunk of the USA, would you also be so casual about it and say that "it's none of our business" blah blah?



Do I think that this is going to lead to a war? No, but as of the moment both countries come across as incredibly immature in this whole matter.

It will lead to war the day that the Skopjens think they have a realistic chance of pulling it off. And if they get a little help from the USA they may start believing and dreaming.

What's really incredibly immature is how the USA has been meddling in this saga by endorsing the Skopjens "Macedonia" circus. It is making matters worse, agitating the situation and creating expectations of a "greater FYROM".

[Crn Volk]

21 years ago the issue never even existed. Now the newbie on the block hijacks itself a name, a history (with USA support) and imagines it is owed certain territory because of this hijacked name and history.

The Macedonian republic was created in 1944;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Republic_of_Macedonia

There were no Greek objections then.

Greece has a defence force. I'm sure it would use it if we launched an attack on them. All nations have defence forces for this purpose. No other nation however denies it's neighbour the right to name itself as it pleases. Greece is unique in this regard.

[RoyBatty]

Dandelion's Facebook analogy was a good one imo.

If somebody started using your photograph, your name, claimed to be you and started inventing some kind of life and legend about you on there (for everybody to see) it would be kind of "what dafuq??" at first, maybe somewhat amusing...

After a while it becomes creepy and sinister because you don't know where this is leading, what they're up to etc. When it then turns out that they feel they are entitled to something you have (property, family etc) then it becomes even more creepy.

When they then receive tacit backing from big gorillas (friends with influence for example) to perpetuate this assimilation and takeover of you, your identity, your life, your property it becomes weirder and weirder and weirder.

Sooner or later such exercises can only end in tears for somebody because once this monster has been created it starts taking on a life of its own as the movement supporting it gains momentum.

Until that big... special.... day when they either become heroes and legends or they are smashed. Are these big dreams really worth the risk?

[Queen B]

The Macedonian republic was created in 1944;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Republic_of_Macedonia

There were no Greek objections then.

Greece has a defence force. I'm sure it would use it if we launched an attack on them. All nations have defence forces for this purpose. No other nation however denies it's neighbour the right to name itself as it pleases. Greece is unique in this regard.
1) The country was named YUGOSLAVIA.

2) You'd be the biggest joke if you attack. Your pseudostate will be over

3) Why Great Britain is not called simply Britain? :coffee:

4) No other country uses the name with the region bordering it, and claims territories,too. FyroB is unique in that, also.

[Crn Volk]

1) The country was named YUGOSLAVIA.

2) You'd be the biggest joke if you attack. Your pseudostate will be over

3) Why Great Britain is not called simply Britain? :coffee:

4) No other country uses the name with the region bordering it, and claims territories,too. FyroB is unique in that, also.

The Macedonian state is not claiming any territories. Maybe some Macedonian nationalists, but not the state.

[El Gre]

The Macedonian state is not claiming any territories. Maybe some Macedonian nationalists, but not the state.


In the early years of Independence they were putting the White tower of Thessaloniki on thier currency. They have shown weather reports on TV with a 'greater macedonia' showing the tempature in Vardar, Pirin and Greek Macedonian cities.

[Xenomorph]

You're trying to seem reasonable. Too reasonable. It just doesn't work this way in real life or the school playground. (Unless teacher and the cops are standing around enforcing pleasantries).

Your only guarantee of maintaining pleasantries is to have a big big stick at hand.

There always needs to be physical force to back up a demand, but those demands need to be reasonable. Unreasonable demands plus a big stick always ends in mindless destruction.


How so?

21 years ago the issue never even existed. Now the newbie on the block hijacks itself a name, a history (with USA support) and imagines it is owed certain territory because of this hijacked name and history.

Macedonia is Greek, it always was Greek. I mean, all you have to do is some basic research on Ancient history. Calling the Skopjens "Macedonians" only confuses the issue (which is what they trade on).

But it was always (for all intents and purposes and known records) Greek. It cannot become "Greek now". It's not as if somebody robbed the Skopjens.[/quote]

Portions of ancient Macedonia do exist within Greece, but other portions do not. The portions that are outside Greece have the right to call themselves Macedonia even if the culture is different. The country of Azerbaijan is a Persian name, yet modern Azeris speak a Turkic language. Should they have to change their country's name?


Like the FYROM poster said, this is the Balkans and they love fighting and grabbing things off one another. And living on the edge is where it's at for them. :D

From time to time foreign Imperialists (Americans, Turks, British etc) find it convenient to back one side over the other for personal gains so whenever this is the case the media swings into action, portrays one side in a negative light and then the Cavalry go marching in.

This is pretty true.


You may as well tell a J00, Chinese or Albanian that they need to stop worrying about their ethnic identity. Greece isn't the USA, the great melting pot of multiculturalism.

How can it not be their business what symbols other countries start using? The implications are obvious to anybody but an amoeba. Those symbols are related to an identity, to a history. Those symbols, identity, history all add up to create and invent a legend which includes territorial expansion, as shown by that map example and as confirmed by our Skopjen fellow poster.

They have a right to protect their identity, but like I said before, significant portions of old Macedonia are not in the borders of modern Greece. Those regions still have a right to call themselves Macedonians; what they shouldn't do is try to claim Greek national territory.


In a hypothetical situation this is no different to the Aztlans laying claim to the Southern USA. In a hypothetical situation, if the Aztlans had a realistic chance (they don't) of grabbing a sizeable chunk of the USA, would you also be so casual about it and say that "it's none of our business" blah blah?

If there was a serious chance that the US would be invaded from Mexico, then I would support any measure to keep them out (although I have no problem with Mexican ethnic culture being part of the American Southwest). But to apply it to Macedonia/Fyrom and Greece, the Macedonians/Fyromians have no realistic chance of seizing Greek Macedonia. The US does not deny Mexico diplomatic recognition simply because some radicals want to retake Arizona and New Mexico. The Fyromians can draw whatever cute maps they want, they will have no bearing on reality. Greece for its part has a right to defend its territorial integrity, but the rantings of irredentists are not good reasons to not recognize a country that, whatever name it goes under, is a reality and is not going away.


It will lead to war the day that the Skopjens think they have a realistic chance of pulling it off. And if they get a little help from the USA they may start believing and dreaming.

If they actually concieve the idea to invade Greece and take territory, they will deserve getting smacked down. As for the US, while it recognizes Macedonia, that does not translate into support for it taking Greek land. An invasion of Greece would be in no one self-interest, and I cannot see the US backing it for any reason.


What's really incredibly immature is how the USA has been meddling in this saga by endorsing the Skopjens "Macedonia" circus. It is making matters worse, agitating the situation and creating expectations of a "greater FYROM".

Yes, that's wrong. Not the recognition part, but the emphasis on the greater part. That being said, unless Greece were to do something extreme, I can't see the American government actually pushing for the seizure of Greek land. It would give them no leverage worldwide and would piss of everyone else.


Dandelion's Facebook analogy was a good one imo.

If somebody started using your photograph, your name, claimed to be you and started inventing some kind of life and legend about you on there (for everybody to see) it would be kind of "what dafuq??" at first, maybe somewhat amusing...

After a while it becomes creepy and sinister because you don't know where this is leading, what they're up to etc. When it then turns out that they feel they are entitled to something you have (property, family etc) then it becomes even more creepy.

When they then receive tacit backing from big gorillas (friends with influence for example) to perpetuate this assimilation and takeover of you, your identity, your life, your property it becomes weirder and weirder and weirder.

Sooner or later such exercises can only end in tears for somebody because once this monster has been created it starts taking on a life of its own as the movement supporting it gains momentum.

Until that big... special.... day when they either become heroes and legends or they are smashed. Are these big dreams really worth the risk?

It would be a valid comparison if this were a Slavic ethnic movement within Greece to break off Aegean Macedonia, but as it were Fyrom holds Macedonian territory which is not Greek, ethnically or politically. A good compromise would be to have the country called Northern Macedonia. Also, if one looks at history, the ancient Kingdom of Macedonia and the southern Greeks were very much different people. Both Hellenic, yes, but viewed as different units. To see Macedonia as part of come continuous Greek nation is an error in and of itself.

[Crn Volk]

In the early years of Independence they were putting the White tower of Thessaloniki on thier currency. They have shown weather reports on TV with a 'greater macedonia' showing the tempature in Vardar, Pirin and Greek Macedonian cities.

This does not translate to official state policy.