The Slavic tribes of Macedonia

[Novi Pazar]

Petros, lets just pause for one moment about the Old Latin words, l would like you to read the following:

Mycenian spoke and wrote also in Proto-Slavonian

A clay tablet exhibited at the Archeological Museum of Mycenae MY V 659 is reminiscent of an account sheet as indicated by the strokes on the right hand side of the tablet. A chance look at the second row revealed the signs sequence http://www.theapricity.com/images/stories/clanki/turecek/mycenian/2nd_row.png( = A-RE-HA-SA-DA-RA) which some scientists read as “Alexandra” (allegedly derived from Hittitic “Alakšanduš”, see reference to Kadmos below in literature or see http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A4596735). Such a reading is wrong.

Author: Igor Tureček

Between 1951-1953 Michael Ventris succeeded to decipher the meaning of the linear B signs assigning them sounds which allowed reading of the tablets. But the meaning of the texts itself remained undisclosed. This continued until 1991, the year when Antonín Horák published his book The Slavs The Very Other Way (possible translation The Slavonic Paradigm Inverted). He revealed that the clay tablets should be read as Proto-Slavonic and not Greek. And this is the case with this tablet. The correct reading of the linear B signs is “AREHA SADARA” (fruit-grower’s nuts). The sound value of the circled cross (third sign from left) is either as “KA” or “HA” or “CHA”. The pronunciation of “CH” is like in “Lochness” or "Bach" . The chance look motivated me to explore this tablet in greater depth. After this initial inspiration I encountered in the second processing step – i.e. initial translation - some issues. Perhaps, the rows may be seen as arguments. Maybe they are an outline of a letter. Or, they could be notes for an oratory to be presented in a Proto-Slavonic language – using Linear B lexicography. But there is a third step where the reader expects a surprise. Thus, let us proceed step by step. http://www.theapricity.com/images/stories/clanki/turecek/mycenian/tablet_copy.jpg
Transliteration of rows
1st: VO-DI-JE-JA-stroke-KE-MI-NI-JA-
2nd: MA-NO-stroke-A-RE-CHA-SA-DA-RA-
3rd: RI-TA-RA-stroke-NE-TA
4th: E-RI-TU-VA-NA-stroke-TE-O-DO-RA
5th: O-TO-VO-VI-JE-TU-KA-TE
6th: A-NE-Á-stroke-TU-KA-TE
7th: PI-RO-VO-NA-KI-RA
8th: ??-KA-RO-stroke-KE-TI-DE
9th: ??-??-??-??-??-VO-ME
10th: ??-??-??-??-??-??-RA
11th missing
12th missing
13th missing
Transliteration of the vertical inscription: SE(or RE?)-stroke-??-??-KE-RA-ME-stroke-KI-RA
Copy of a clay tablet fragment in Archeological Museum at Mycenae.
In the transliteration of rows the strokes at the ends of rows have been omitted as well as the circle signs with four dots inside interpreted by the scientific community as „QE” sings with the meaning of „sum”. The reading of this sign as „QE” (Nr. 78 of the Ventris table) is an error and a correct reading should be ŠČĚ or ČE (pronunciation rules see below). According to Horák (1991) the phonetical value was acrophonically derived from „ščětúr“ (four). „Sčjot“ in Russian, which has similar pronunciation, means „calculation“ or „bill“. According to other clay tablets, „ščě“ used to have a broader meaning like „besides“ and „on top of that“.
Transcription and lexical translation
Transcription of the clay tablet is in Proto-Slavonic using Czech diacritic signs followed by English transcription. Czech signs are used because of their shortness. Rules for pronunciation:
š ….. like “-sh” in “English”
č ….. like “cz-” in “Czech”
šč ….like “š” + “č” in one expiration. Let the air flow as if you would like to pronounce many „š“ – like „šššššššššš“ – and at the end of this „š“ tone up the air flow and exspirate „č“. The air flow change you realize with your tongue pressing against velum palatinum. When you have learned it, you reduce the number of „š“ just to one.
v ……like “v-“ in “value”; The present transliteration using „w-“ was left. There is no difference in pronunciation between „w” and „v“. This is the reason why do I transliterate VODIJE and not WODIJE.
CH …like “-ch-” in “Lochness”.
Ě…….like “YE”
Á…….like “-a-“ in “car”
Strokes on the tablet between the signs are not word delimiters but they are graphemes of speech sounds not coded in Linear B. So far recorded on various tablets they are according to the meaning these following „-s –šč –j –n –č –r –m –c –t –v –ch –d -k” derived at the ends of words. In the following transcription they are written in small letters.
http://www.theapricity.com/images/stories/clanki/turecek/mycenian/clay_tablet.jpg1st VODIJE......JA-šč ...KE ...MI....NI....JA
.......guiding…..work.....to....me...not….I…….(to him)
2nd MÁ............NO-v ..............ARECHA....SADARA
........he has….new-fresh...…nuts………..fruit-grower’s
3rd RITA….....RA-n…….NĚ….TA
.......scruffs.….early…….not …here
4th row has two variants:
.......ĚRI..................TU.......VÁNA-m........TĚ…..ODORA
.......they believe...here…the Vanas …that....they worked it off by ploughing
5th O...........TOVO.................VIJE......TUKA... .........TĚ
.......at the ...feeding time ...driving...the turkey.....that
6th A…....NĚ.....Á - stroke - .....TUKA......TĚ
.......without ...............?..............turkey ....?
7th PIROVaO....NA..................KIRA
.......feasted……for {at, on} …rent?
8th ?U?-KA-RO-šč.....KE-TI-DE


Clay tablet from Archeological Museum at Mycenae
Kredit Gautier Poupeau, Wikimedia


The reading of the 8th row is uncertain as the leading sign is missing
U-KÁ-RO-šč.may mean reproaching or censuring. Based on an analogy to tablet PY Ta 711.
Meaning of KE-TI-DE unknown.
Transcription of the vertical inscription (not shown in this display), possibly 14th row, is
SE(or RE?)-stroke-??-??-KERAMĚ-j…..KIRÁ
……………………………...ceramist…….is doing charges
Dictionary
VODIJE ≈ guiding, similar to srbcr. "voditi" meaning to lead, guide
VODÍ JE = he-she guides them, is another possible reading
JA-šč = work or working, „jášč“ means also „producing-exercising“ and appears also in words like „dajášč“ („giving“, HG IV-16, AH_str 27), „larojašč“ („chiselling“, inscription on a statue of an actor at Volterra amphitheatre, AH_str193), „načánjašč“ („beginning“, Stela from Novilar, AH_str150), „rujášč“ („plowing“, Kn 1416, AH_str81) and several other.
WO-DI-JE-JA could be found on PY Cn 1287, MY V 659, KN Ap 639.3, PY Ub 1318.3, Vn 34.1 probably followed by a stroke which till this time was interpreted as a word delimiter. Of course, this is wrong because JA and a stroke interpreted as „šč“ form an integral word „jašč“.
KE ME = to me, pronunciation probably „ke mje“, dat. sg.
NI = no, not
JA = I
NI JA = not me
MÁ = he-she has
NO-v = new or fresh
ARECHA = nuts, in Belorussian „apзхi“ (pronounce like „aréchi“), in Russian „opéхи“ (pronounce like „arjéchi“), „urra“ in Basque language. A change from „a-“ to „o-“ like e.g. „arecha“ into Czech „ořechy“ and in other Slavonic languages you will also find in PY Cn 1287: ařějom“ (we are ploughing) into „ořeme“ (we are ploughing); and in AH_str43, AH_str44.
http://www.theapricity.com/images/stories/clanki/turecek/mycenian/model_castle.jpg
Model of Mycenae castle where the tablet was found
Kredit State University of New York
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH209images/Mycenaean/Mycenae_recon.jpg
SADARA = from Serbian verb saderati = rubbed off or stripped
ARECHA SADARA = he has new rubbed off nuts (or walnuts)
RITA = scruff, rag, marsh, bog. swamp, covered with reeds
RA-n = morning, early
NĚ = no, not
TA = „here“ or „there“
NĚ TA = „not here“ or „not there“
ĚRI = they believe, in Czech „věří“,
TU = here, only that
VÁNA-m = the Vanas, the Slavs, dat.sg., see also AH_str190, AH_str193, AH_str157, AH_str55
TĚ = that
ODORA = 2.,3. sg. of the srbcr. verbum "odorati" meaning work off by plowing
O = at certain time
TOVO = feeding, similar to srbcr. "toviti" meaning putting on weight
VIJE ≈ similar to srcr. "vijati" ⇒ "on vije" = he drives, persues, chases, goes after
TUKA = turkey
TĚ = perhaps "that"
A NĚ ≈ similar to "without"
A-stroke = there are several possible interpretations in srbcr.: "ad" means hell or underworld, "al" means pink, "am" has the same meaning like "ham" and means yoke, "ar" means shame or square measurement "are", "as" means a roman coin, "at" means a breeding studhorse
PIROVO ≈ similar to "pirovao" meaning "he feasted", from srbcr. "pirovati", also a wedding or a celebration, in Serbian „pirovati“ also means „to banquet“ or „to celebrate a wedding“
NA- = means to do something till the end
KIRA = rent, rental, in srbcr. „kirija“ means „rent“, „leasing“, „freight“
NAKIRA = he is charging
UKAROŠČ = possible meaning "censuring, remonstranting" because the stem („-kar-“ or „-karo-“) suggests a possible connection to „káraja“ (reproach for, preach, take control of), translation according tablet PY Ta 711
KERAMĚ-j = wheeler or potter, also found on tablet PY Cn-1287. Findings of the same words on other clay tablets supports strongly (validates) the Proto-Slavonic hypothesis.
An English reader might be surprized that various Slavonic languages like Serbian, Croatian and Belorisan are being used as reference languages. As a matter of fact, Slavonic languages developed very early and they can view back at least a 12000 years old history. They have reached a very solid level of development which is sufficient up to the present. Some words did not change for several thousands of years. For example the word „kiša“ or „kiše“ (in Serbian „rain“ or „it is raining“) which is being used in meteorological TV-news, you may also find on the clay tablet from Hagia Triada HT-87 in the form „NI KIŠE“ (= „it does not rain“) approximattely 4000 years old. And, of course, written in Linear A. The same holds for this tablet where we could identify Serbian "pirovo" (wedding, celebration) and "nakira" (charging).

http://www.theapricity.com/images/stories/clanki/turecek/mycenian/mycenae_castle.jpg
Mycenae castle from bird’s-eye
Kredit State University of New York
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH209images/Mycenaean/Mycenae_aerial.jpg
Translation
He is adding work to me, not I him
He has new (fresh) fruit-grower’s nuts
There are no scruffs in the morning here
Here they believe Vanas that they work it off by ploughing
At the feeding time he chases the turkey
Without {underworld, pink, yoke, shame, coin, studhorse} turkey
Feasted for {at, on} rent
...reproaching ...

Translation of vertical inscription is only partially possible: „???… the ceramist is charging”
What tells us this tablet
Up to now the scientists assumed Linear B tablets represent accounting data, various lists of goods or executed work. This tablet proves something different. Linear B was not used only for bureaucratic and administrative purposes. As we have seen at second sight - i.e. the initial translation - this tablet shows assertions which could be understood in various ways: list of issues, list of arguments or points. They concern work, relationships between co-workers, wedding etc. But if we examine the endings of the rows then at third sight we surprisingly observe a rhyme:
1st row: -JA
2nd row:.......-RA
3rd row: -TA
4th row:.......-RA
5th row: -TE
6th row: -TE
7th row:.......-RA
8th row: -DE
9th row: -ME
10th row:......-RA
---
14th row:......-RA
This means the tablet might be a record of a poem or a song - unfortunately incomplete. Against this background the ŠČĚ sign might not represent a sum of some commodity and might have completely different meaning. And indeed, ŠČĚ might mean ŠČĚPATI which in Serbian means „get by the hand“. And we may speculate that ŠČĚ plus two strokes at the end of the line might be a sign instructing to do something during singing or dancing.
Until we do not have proves for this circumstance, we should also keep in mind Horak’s interpretation that strokes on the right hand side camouflage the real content of the tablet as the ruling class was not literate and the Slavonic slaves could write.
Discussion
On a discussion forum JS Lopes argued that:
"Female form of Alexandros would be Alexaneira, not "Alexandra", that is a name too recent, probably from XIX or XX centuries. But a final -andra is present in Kassandra, what make an Alexandra possible, maybe this ANDRA was a Pre-Greek suffix, not related to Greek aner, andros.
And add to A(l/m/n/r/s) also final -i: A(l/m/n/r/s/i)". This means an interpretation of the second line as "Alexandra" would be very improbable.
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66877
In 1941 Max Vasmer published his book Die Slaven in Griechenland where he collected 2195 geographical Greek names of Slavonic origin. The aim of this book was to document the settlements of Slavs in Greece in the 6th century AD. But taking the MY V 659 tablet into account we have a prove that the word "areha" means nuts and that the folloing list supports t the idea of autochton settlements of Slavs in Greece and Europe at all.
A list of 20 Slavonic (or Protoslavonic?) village names in Greece which are in relation to “nuts”.
1. Ἀραχοβίτσα ON, Kr. Argithea, Karditsa (Lex., Stat. Ap.). Aus slav. Orěchovica wie oben S. 21. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_5.htm#1
http://www.theapricity.com/plugins/editors/jckeditor/images/spacer.gif?t=A5AB4B7 2. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Philiatōn (Lex., A.), aus altslav. Orěchovo zuorěchъ»Nuß, Nußbaum«, s. Hilferding I 287, Miklosich, Bildung 291. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_1a.htm#2
http://www.theapricity.com/plugins/editors/jckeditor/images/spacer.gif?t=A5AB4B7 3. Ἀραχοβίτσα ON, Kr. Joannina (Lex., A.). Belegt auch als Ἀρεαχοβίτζαν, Acc. s. Epirotica, Frgm. 2 ed. Bonn. S. 227, 13. Der Name stammt aus altslav. Orěchovica. Vgl. skr. ON Orahavica. Weitere Belege s. Miklosich, Bildung 291. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_1a.htm#2
3. Ἀράχοβα ON. Kr. Parakampylíōn (St. Ap., Lex., Nuch.) aus slav. Orěchovo wie oben S. 21. Vgl auch Hilferding I 291. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_1a.htm#3
http://www.theapricity.com/plugins/editors/jckeditor/images/spacer.gif?t=A5AB4B7 4. Ἀραχοβίστα O. N., Kr. Ktimeniōn (St. Ap., Lex., Nuch.) aus slav. Orěchovica wie oben S. 21. — Hilferding I 291 liest fälschlich Δραχοβίτσα und deutet den Namen von einem slav. *Dragovica. Die ersten Lesung ist gesichert und entscheidet die Deutung gegen Hilferding. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_4.htm#3
Ἀραχοβίτσα ON, Kr. Argithea, Karditsa (Lex., Stat. Ap.). Aus slav. Orěchovica wie oben S. 21. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_5.htm#1
http://www.theapricity.com/plugins/editors/jckeditor/images/spacer.gif?t=A5AB4B75. Ἀράχοβα ON am Krisäischen Meerbusen = altgriech. Ἀνεμώρεια nach R. und Neumann-Partsch, Griechenland 166. Es steckt darin ein slav. *Orěchovo wie oben S. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_10.htm#521.
2. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Lebadeia (Stat. Ap., Lex.). Nuch. nennt den Ort Ῥάχοβα. Bei R. findet sich Ῥάχωβα und Δῆμος Ἀραχώβης. Aus slav. *Orěchovo wie oben S. 21. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_11.htm#2
Ἀραχοβίτικα ON, Kr. Trikkala (Nuch., fehlt in den Stat. Ap.). Eine griechische Neubildung von einem *Ἀράχοβα. In der Nähe dieses Ortes liegt Καρυώτικα. Also zwei »Nußorte«. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_14.htm#1
5. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Aigieis (Nuch., Stat. Ap., Lex,). Aus slav. Orěchovo. Also »Nußort« wie oben S. 21 und 114. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_16.htm#5
6. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Phelloē (Lex., Stat. Ap.). Dafür Ῥάχοβα bei R und Nuch. Zu deuten wie der vorhergehende Name. Ἀραχοβίτικα ON, http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_16.htm#5
1. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Buphagiōn (Nuch., Stat. Ap., Lex.). Am slav. Orěchovo »Nußort« wie oben S. 21. Eine griechische Ableitung haben wir in Ἀραχαμίτες ON, Kr. Tripolis, nach R II 713. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_19.htm#1
5. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Kalamia (Nuch., Stat. Ap., Lex.). Ein »Nußort«, slav. Orěchovo bzw. Orěchova, wie oben S. 21 und 150. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_20.htm#1
6. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Messene (Lex.). Zu deuten wie der vorige Name. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_20.htm#1
2. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Leuktru, südlich von Kardamyle (Nuch., Stat. Ap., Lex.). Wohl identisch mit Ἀρέχοβα locus Mainae, a. 1618 bei Mikl.-Müller III 272. Entspricht einem slav. Orěchovo bzw. Orěchova »Nußort«, wie oben S. 150. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_21.htm#2
3. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Oinúntos (Nuch., Stat. Ap., Lex.). Zu identifizieren mit Ἀράχοβα Μεγάλη »in Laconia on the western slope of the Parnon Mountains; according to the Chronicle of Morea in the confines of Skorta« (s. J. Schmitt, The chronicle of Morea, Glossar s. v.). Etymologisch zu deuten wie das vorige. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_21.htm#2
104. Ὀρέχοβον ἢ Ῥάχοβα ON, Kr. Florina (Lex.), bei K. Orěchovo. Nach K. nur Bulgaren. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_23b.htm
105. Ὄροβνικ auch Καρυαί, ON, Kr. Florina (Lex.), nach K. Orovnik. Aus *Orěchovьnikъ »Nußort«, wie die griechische Form Καρυαί zeigt. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_23b.htm
111. Ῥάχοβα ON, Kr. Berrhoia (Lex.), fehlt bei K. Es ist ein »Nußort«, slav. Orěchovo bzw. Orěchova. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_23d.htm
112. Ῥεάχοβον Ort unweit Lozikin und Rendini 2, urk. a. 1327, s. Viz. Vrem. XVII 240. Auch Ῥεάχοβα nach urk. a. 1286, s. Viz. Vrem. XIII 27. Aus slav. *Orěchovo. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_23d.htm
144. Λασκοβίκια ἢ Λακοβίκια ON, Kr. Zichne (Lex.), fehlt bei K. Der erste Name ist als »Haselnußort« zu stellen zu bulg. Lěskovec (oft), skr. Leskovac, sloven. Leskovec (beides sehr häufig) und beruht auf der Vorstufe eines altslav. *Lěskovьcь. Der zweite griechische Name ist offenbar aus dem ersten umgestaltet durch volksetymologische Anlehnung an griech. Λάκκος »Graben«. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_23e.htm


Conclusion
The most important finding is that the writer knew Proto-Slavonic and that the tablet is not a form of Proto-Greek. Also, on this tablet we have a testimony how the Slavs called themselves, namely VANAs. In some details, the translation might not be fitting in each word as we do not know the language to a sufficient extent and about 25-30 signs are missing but we must opposite Michael Ventris conclusion that A-RE-HA-SA-DA-RA means ALEXANDRA. In fact, the meaning is "fruit-grower’s nuts".
Abbreviations
srbcr = serbocroatian
sg. = singular
pl. = plural
nom. = nominative
gen. = genitive
dat. = dative
acc. = accusative
AH_str... = citation of Horák (1991) plus page (str...) -
References
Antonín Horák: O Slovanech úplně jinak, Publisher Lípa, Vizovice, 1991.
Kadmos. Band 4, Heft 2, Seiten 138-145, ISSN (Online) 1613-0723, ISSN (Print) 022-7498, DOI: 10.1515/kadm.1965.4.2.138,//1965
http://www.reference-global.com/doi/abs/10.1515/kadm.1965.4.2.138
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bruceheam/1018705197/in/set-721576012388296705
http://mycenae-excavations.org/databases.html
The author thanks Petr Jandáček for fruitful English suggestions.
Updated January 2011

[Novi Pazar]

Petros, the info is from this site if you want to see it in better detail, when l copied it, it didn't properly align itself, so better check it here:

http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/other-articles/301-mycenian-spoke-and-wrote-also-in-proto-slavonian

[Petros Houhoulis]

Petros, lets just pause for one moment about the Old Latin words, l would like you to read the following:

Mycenian spoke and wrote also in Proto-Slavonian

A clay tablet exhibited at the Archeological Museum of Mycenae MY V 659 is reminiscent of an account sheet as indicated by the strokes on the right hand side of the tablet. A chance look at the second row revealed the signs sequence http://www.theapricity.com/images/stories/clanki/turecek/mycenian/2nd_row.png( = A-RE-HA-SA-DA-RA) which some scientists read as “Alexandra” (allegedly derived from Hittitic “Alakšanduš”, see reference to Kadmos below in literature or see http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A4596735). Such a reading is wrong.

Author: Igor Tureček

Between 1951-1953 Michael Ventris succeeded to decipher the meaning of the linear B signs assigning them sounds which allowed reading of the tablets. But the meaning of the texts itself remained undisclosed. This continued until 1991, the year when Antonín Horák published his book The Slavs The Very Other Way (possible translation The Slavonic Paradigm Inverted). He revealed that the clay tablets should be read as Proto-Slavonic and not Greek. And this is the case with this tablet. The correct reading of the linear B signs is “AREHA SADARA” (fruit-grower’s nuts). The sound value of the circled cross (third sign from left) is either as “KA” or “HA” or “CHA”. The pronunciation of “CH” is like in “Lochness” or "Bach" . The chance look motivated me to explore this tablet in greater depth. After this initial inspiration I encountered in the second processing step – i.e. initial translation - some issues. Perhaps, the rows may be seen as arguments. Maybe they are an outline of a letter. Or, they could be notes for an oratory to be presented in a Proto-Slavonic language – using Linear B lexicography. But there is a third step where the reader expects a surprise. Thus, let us proceed step by step. http://www.theapricity.com/images/stories/clanki/turecek/mycenian/tablet_copy.jpg
Transliteration of rows
1st: VO-DI-JE-JA-stroke-KE-MI-NI-JA-
2nd: MA-NO-stroke-A-RE-CHA-SA-DA-RA-
3rd: RI-TA-RA-stroke-NE-TA
4th: E-RI-TU-VA-NA-stroke-TE-O-DO-RA
5th: O-TO-VO-VI-JE-TU-KA-TE
6th: A-NE-Á-stroke-TU-KA-TE
7th: PI-RO-VO-NA-KI-RA
8th: ??-KA-RO-stroke-KE-TI-DE
9th: ??-??-??-??-??-VO-ME
10th: ??-??-??-??-??-??-RA
11th missing
12th missing
13th missing
Transliteration of the vertical inscription: SE(or RE?)-stroke-??-??-KE-RA-ME-stroke-KI-RA
Copy of a clay tablet fragment in Archeological Museum at Mycenae.
In the transliteration of rows the strokes at the ends of rows have been omitted as well as the circle signs with four dots inside interpreted by the scientific community as „QE” sings with the meaning of „sum”. The reading of this sign as „QE” (Nr. 78 of the Ventris table) is an error and a correct reading should be ŠČĚ or ČE (pronunciation rules see below). According to Horák (1991) the phonetical value was acrophonically derived from „ščětúr“ (four). „Sčjot“ in Russian, which has similar pronunciation, means „calculation“ or „bill“. According to other clay tablets, „ščě“ used to have a broader meaning like „besides“ and „on top of that“.
Transcription and lexical translation
Transcription of the clay tablet is in Proto-Slavonic using Czech diacritic signs followed by English transcription. Czech signs are used because of their shortness. Rules for pronunciation:
š ….. like “-sh” in “English”
č ….. like “cz-” in “Czech”
šč ….like “š” + “č” in one expiration. Let the air flow as if you would like to pronounce many „š“ – like „šššššššššš“ – and at the end of this „š“ tone up the air flow and exspirate „č“. The air flow change you realize with your tongue pressing against velum palatinum. When you have learned it, you reduce the number of „š“ just to one.
v ……like “v-“ in “value”; The present transliteration using „w-“ was left. There is no difference in pronunciation between „w” and „v“. This is the reason why do I transliterate VODIJE and not WODIJE.
CH …like “-ch-” in “Lochness”.
Ě…….like “YE”
Á…….like “-a-“ in “car”
Strokes on the tablet between the signs are not word delimiters but they are graphemes of speech sounds not coded in Linear B. So far recorded on various tablets they are according to the meaning these following „-s –šč –j –n –č –r –m –c –t –v –ch –d -k” derived at the ends of words. In the following transcription they are written in small letters.
http://www.theapricity.com/images/stories/clanki/turecek/mycenian/clay_tablet.jpg1st VODIJE......JA-šč ...KE ...MI....NI....JA
.......guiding…..work.....to....me...not….I…….(to him)
2nd MÁ............NO-v ..............ARECHA....SADARA
........he has….new-fresh...…nuts………..fruit-grower’s
3rd RITA….....RA-n…….NĚ….TA
.......scruffs.….early…….not …here
4th row has two variants:
.......ĚRI..................TU.......VÁNA-m........TĚ…..ODORA
.......they believe...here…the Vanas …that....they worked it off by ploughing
5th O...........TOVO.................VIJE......TUKA... .........TĚ
.......at the ...feeding time ...driving...the turkey.....that
6th A…....NĚ.....Á - stroke - .....TUKA......TĚ
.......without ...............?..............turkey ....?
7th PIROVaO....NA..................KIRA
.......feasted……for {at, on} …rent?
8th ?U?-KA-RO-šč.....KE-TI-DE


Clay tablet from Archeological Museum at Mycenae
Kredit Gautier Poupeau, Wikimedia


The reading of the 8th row is uncertain as the leading sign is missing
U-KÁ-RO-šč.may mean reproaching or censuring. Based on an analogy to tablet PY Ta 711.
Meaning of KE-TI-DE unknown.
Transcription of the vertical inscription (not shown in this display), possibly 14th row, is
SE(or RE?)-stroke-??-??-KERAMĚ-j…..KIRÁ
……………………………...ceramist…….is doing charges
Dictionary
VODIJE ≈ guiding, similar to srbcr. "voditi" meaning to lead, guide
VODÍ JE = he-she guides them, is another possible reading
JA-šč = work or working, „jášč“ means also „producing-exercising“ and appears also in words like „dajášč“ („giving“, HG IV-16, AH_str 27), „larojašč“ („chiselling“, inscription on a statue of an actor at Volterra amphitheatre, AH_str193), „načánjašč“ („beginning“, Stela from Novilar, AH_str150), „rujášč“ („plowing“, Kn 1416, AH_str81) and several other.
WO-DI-JE-JA could be found on PY Cn 1287, MY V 659, KN Ap 639.3, PY Ub 1318.3, Vn 34.1 probably followed by a stroke which till this time was interpreted as a word delimiter. Of course, this is wrong because JA and a stroke interpreted as „šč“ form an integral word „jašč“.
KE ME = to me, pronunciation probably „ke mje“, dat. sg.
NI = no, not
JA = I
NI JA = not me
MÁ = he-she has
NO-v = new or fresh
ARECHA = nuts, in Belorussian „apзхi“ (pronounce like „aréchi“), in Russian „opéхи“ (pronounce like „arjéchi“), „urra“ in Basque language. A change from „a-“ to „o-“ like e.g. „arecha“ into Czech „ořechy“ and in other Slavonic languages you will also find in PY Cn 1287: ařějom“ (we are ploughing) into „ořeme“ (we are ploughing); and in AH_str43, AH_str44.
http://www.theapricity.com/images/stories/clanki/turecek/mycenian/model_castle.jpg
Model of Mycenae castle where the tablet was found
Kredit State University of New York
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH209images/Mycenaean/Mycenae_recon.jpg
SADARA = from Serbian verb saderati = rubbed off or stripped
ARECHA SADARA = he has new rubbed off nuts (or walnuts)
RITA = scruff, rag, marsh, bog. swamp, covered with reeds
RA-n = morning, early
NĚ = no, not
TA = „here“ or „there“
NĚ TA = „not here“ or „not there“
ĚRI = they believe, in Czech „věří“,
TU = here, only that
VÁNA-m = the Vanas, the Slavs, dat.sg., see also AH_str190, AH_str193, AH_str157, AH_str55
TĚ = that
ODORA = 2.,3. sg. of the srbcr. verbum "odorati" meaning work off by plowing
O = at certain time
TOVO = feeding, similar to srbcr. "toviti" meaning putting on weight
VIJE ≈ similar to srcr. "vijati" ⇒ "on vije" = he drives, persues, chases, goes after
TUKA = turkey
TĚ = perhaps "that"
A NĚ ≈ similar to "without"
A-stroke = there are several possible interpretations in srbcr.: "ad" means hell or underworld, "al" means pink, "am" has the same meaning like "ham" and means yoke, "ar" means shame or square measurement "are", "as" means a roman coin, "at" means a breeding studhorse
PIROVO ≈ similar to "pirovao" meaning "he feasted", from srbcr. "pirovati", also a wedding or a celebration, in Serbian „pirovati“ also means „to banquet“ or „to celebrate a wedding“
NA- = means to do something till the end
KIRA = rent, rental, in srbcr. „kirija“ means „rent“, „leasing“, „freight“
NAKIRA = he is charging
UKAROŠČ = possible meaning "censuring, remonstranting" because the stem („-kar-“ or „-karo-“) suggests a possible connection to „káraja“ (reproach for, preach, take control of), translation according tablet PY Ta 711
KERAMĚ-j = wheeler or potter, also found on tablet PY Cn-1287. Findings of the same words on other clay tablets supports strongly (validates) the Proto-Slavonic hypothesis.
An English reader might be surprized that various Slavonic languages like Serbian, Croatian and Belorisan are being used as reference languages. As a matter of fact, Slavonic languages developed very early and they can view back at least a 12000 years old history. They have reached a very solid level of development which is sufficient up to the present. Some words did not change for several thousands of years. For example the word „kiša“ or „kiše“ (in Serbian „rain“ or „it is raining“) which is being used in meteorological TV-news, you may also find on the clay tablet from Hagia Triada HT-87 in the form „NI KIŠE“ (= „it does not rain“) approximattely 4000 years old. And, of course, written in Linear A. The same holds for this tablet where we could identify Serbian "pirovo" (wedding, celebration) and "nakira" (charging).

http://www.theapricity.com/images/stories/clanki/turecek/mycenian/mycenae_castle.jpg
Mycenae castle from bird’s-eye
Kredit State University of New York
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH209images/Mycenaean/Mycenae_aerial.jpg
Translation
He is adding work to me, not I him
He has new (fresh) fruit-grower’s nuts
There are no scruffs in the morning here
Here they believe Vanas that they work it off by ploughing
At the feeding time he chases the turkey
Without {underworld, pink, yoke, shame, coin, studhorse} turkey
Feasted for {at, on} rent
...reproaching ...

Translation of vertical inscription is only partially possible: „???… the ceramist is charging”
What tells us this tablet
Up to now the scientists assumed Linear B tablets represent accounting data, various lists of goods or executed work. This tablet proves something different. Linear B was not used only for bureaucratic and administrative purposes. As we have seen at second sight - i.e. the initial translation - this tablet shows assertions which could be understood in various ways: list of issues, list of arguments or points. They concern work, relationships between co-workers, wedding etc. But if we examine the endings of the rows then at third sight we surprisingly observe a rhyme:
1st row: -JA
2nd row:.......-RA
3rd row: -TA
4th row:.......-RA
5th row: -TE
6th row: -TE
7th row:.......-RA
8th row: -DE
9th row: -ME
10th row:......-RA
---
14th row:......-RA
This means the tablet might be a record of a poem or a song - unfortunately incomplete. Against this background the ŠČĚ sign might not represent a sum of some commodity and might have completely different meaning. And indeed, ŠČĚ might mean ŠČĚPATI which in Serbian means „get by the hand“. And we may speculate that ŠČĚ plus two strokes at the end of the line might be a sign instructing to do something during singing or dancing.
Until we do not have proves for this circumstance, we should also keep in mind Horak’s interpretation that strokes on the right hand side camouflage the real content of the tablet as the ruling class was not literate and the Slavonic slaves could write.
Discussion
On a discussion forum JS Lopes argued that:
"Female form of Alexandros would be Alexaneira, not "Alexandra", that is a name too recent, probably from XIX or XX centuries. But a final -andra is present in Kassandra, what make an Alexandra possible, maybe this ANDRA was a Pre-Greek suffix, not related to Greek aner, andros.
And add to A(l/m/n/r/s) also final -i: A(l/m/n/r/s/i)". This means an interpretation of the second line as "Alexandra" would be very improbable.
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66877
In 1941 Max Vasmer published his book Die Slaven in Griechenland where he collected 2195 geographical Greek names of Slavonic origin. The aim of this book was to document the settlements of Slavs in Greece in the 6th century AD. But taking the MY V 659 tablet into account we have a prove that the word "areha" means nuts and that the folloing list supports t the idea of autochton settlements of Slavs in Greece and Europe at all.
A list of 20 Slavonic (or Protoslavonic?) village names in Greece which are in relation to “nuts”.
1. Ἀραχοβίτσα ON, Kr. Argithea, Karditsa (Lex., Stat. Ap.). Aus slav. Orěchovica wie oben S. 21. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_5.htm#1
http://www.theapricity.com/plugins/editors/jckeditor/images/spacer.gif?t=A5AB4B7 2. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Philiatōn (Lex., A.), aus altslav. Orěchovo zuorěchъ»Nuß, Nußbaum«, s. Hilferding I 287, Miklosich, Bildung 291. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_1a.htm#2
http://www.theapricity.com/plugins/editors/jckeditor/images/spacer.gif?t=A5AB4B7 3. Ἀραχοβίτσα ON, Kr. Joannina (Lex., A.). Belegt auch als Ἀρεαχοβίτζαν, Acc. s. Epirotica, Frgm. 2 ed. Bonn. S. 227, 13. Der Name stammt aus altslav. Orěchovica. Vgl. skr. ON Orahavica. Weitere Belege s. Miklosich, Bildung 291. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_1a.htm#2
3. Ἀράχοβα ON. Kr. Parakampylíōn (St. Ap., Lex., Nuch.) aus slav. Orěchovo wie oben S. 21. Vgl auch Hilferding I 291. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_1a.htm#3
http://www.theapricity.com/plugins/editors/jckeditor/images/spacer.gif?t=A5AB4B7 4. Ἀραχοβίστα O. N., Kr. Ktimeniōn (St. Ap., Lex., Nuch.) aus slav. Orěchovica wie oben S. 21. — Hilferding I 291 liest fälschlich Δραχοβίτσα und deutet den Namen von einem slav. *Dragovica. Die ersten Lesung ist gesichert und entscheidet die Deutung gegen Hilferding. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_4.htm#3
Ἀραχοβίτσα ON, Kr. Argithea, Karditsa (Lex., Stat. Ap.). Aus slav. Orěchovica wie oben S. 21. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_5.htm#1
http://www.theapricity.com/plugins/editors/jckeditor/images/spacer.gif?t=A5AB4B75. Ἀράχοβα ON am Krisäischen Meerbusen = altgriech. Ἀνεμώρεια nach R. und Neumann-Partsch, Griechenland 166. Es steckt darin ein slav. *Orěchovo wie oben S. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_10.htm#521.
2. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Lebadeia (Stat. Ap., Lex.). Nuch. nennt den Ort Ῥάχοβα. Bei R. findet sich Ῥάχωβα und Δῆμος Ἀραχώβης. Aus slav. *Orěchovo wie oben S. 21. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_11.htm#2
Ἀραχοβίτικα ON, Kr. Trikkala (Nuch., fehlt in den Stat. Ap.). Eine griechische Neubildung von einem *Ἀράχοβα. In der Nähe dieses Ortes liegt Καρυώτικα. Also zwei »Nußorte«. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_14.htm#1
5. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Aigieis (Nuch., Stat. Ap., Lex,). Aus slav. Orěchovo. Also »Nußort« wie oben S. 21 und 114. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_16.htm#5
6. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Phelloē (Lex., Stat. Ap.). Dafür Ῥάχοβα bei R und Nuch. Zu deuten wie der vorhergehende Name. Ἀραχοβίτικα ON, http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_16.htm#5
1. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Buphagiōn (Nuch., Stat. Ap., Lex.). Am slav. Orěchovo »Nußort« wie oben S. 21. Eine griechische Ableitung haben wir in Ἀραχαμίτες ON, Kr. Tripolis, nach R II 713. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_19.htm#1
5. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Kalamia (Nuch., Stat. Ap., Lex.). Ein »Nußort«, slav. Orěchovo bzw. Orěchova, wie oben S. 21 und 150. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_20.htm#1
6. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Messene (Lex.). Zu deuten wie der vorige Name. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_20.htm#1
2. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Leuktru, südlich von Kardamyle (Nuch., Stat. Ap., Lex.). Wohl identisch mit Ἀρέχοβα locus Mainae, a. 1618 bei Mikl.-Müller III 272. Entspricht einem slav. Orěchovo bzw. Orěchova »Nußort«, wie oben S. 150. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_21.htm#2
3. Ἀράχοβα ON, Kr. Oinúntos (Nuch., Stat. Ap., Lex.). Zu identifizieren mit Ἀράχοβα Μεγάλη »in Laconia on the western slope of the Parnon Mountains; according to the Chronicle of Morea in the confines of Skorta« (s. J. Schmitt, The chronicle of Morea, Glossar s. v.). Etymologisch zu deuten wie das vorige. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_21.htm#2
104. Ὀρέχοβον ἢ Ῥάχοβα ON, Kr. Florina (Lex.), bei K. Orěchovo. Nach K. nur Bulgaren. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_23b.htm
105. Ὄροβνικ auch Καρυαί, ON, Kr. Florina (Lex.), nach K. Orovnik. Aus *Orěchovьnikъ »Nußort«, wie die griechische Form Καρυαί zeigt. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_23b.htm
111. Ῥάχοβα ON, Kr. Berrhoia (Lex.), fehlt bei K. Es ist ein »Nußort«, slav. Orěchovo bzw. Orěchova. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_23d.htm
112. Ῥεάχοβον Ort unweit Lozikin und Rendini 2, urk. a. 1327, s. Viz. Vrem. XVII 240. Auch Ῥεάχοβα nach urk. a. 1286, s. Viz. Vrem. XIII 27. Aus slav. *Orěchovo. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_23d.htm
144. Λασκοβίκια ἢ Λακοβίκια ON, Kr. Zichne (Lex.), fehlt bei K. Der erste Name ist als »Haselnußort« zu stellen zu bulg. Lěskovec (oft), skr. Leskovac, sloven. Leskovec (beides sehr häufig) und beruht auf der Vorstufe eines altslav. *Lěskovьcь. Der zweite griechische Name ist offenbar aus dem ersten umgestaltet durch volksetymologische Anlehnung an griech. Λάκκος »Graben«. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_3_23e.htm


Conclusion
The most important finding is that the writer knew Proto-Slavonic and that the tablet is not a form of Proto-Greek. Also, on this tablet we have a testimony how the Slavs called themselves, namely VANAs. In some details, the translation might not be fitting in each word as we do not know the language to a sufficient extent and about 25-30 signs are missing but we must opposite Michael Ventris conclusion that A-RE-HA-SA-DA-RA means ALEXANDRA. In fact, the meaning is "fruit-grower’s nuts".
Abbreviations
srbcr = serbocroatian
sg. = singular
pl. = plural
nom. = nominative
gen. = genitive
dat. = dative
acc. = accusative
AH_str... = citation of Horák (1991) plus page (str...) -
References
Antonín Horák: O Slovanech úplně jinak, Publisher Lípa, Vizovice, 1991.
Kadmos. Band 4, Heft 2, Seiten 138-145, ISSN (Online) 1613-0723, ISSN (Print) 022-7498, DOI: 10.1515/kadm.1965.4.2.138,//1965
http://www.reference-global.com/doi/abs/10.1515/kadm.1965.4.2.138
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bruceheam/1018705197/in/set-721576012388296705
http://mycenae-excavations.org/databases.html
The author thanks Petr Jandáček for fruitful English suggestions.
Updated January 2011

This is an excellent theory. Now go find a real linguist to have a laugh at it.

Seriously, Novi Pazar, do you believe that so many scholars could not figure out that Mycenaean was Proto-Slavonic, and a couple of funny guys figure it out?

I've seen many ridiculous posts about linguistics, and those include ridiculous theories proposed by Slovenians as well as the Makedonishtanis about the Rosetta stone. None of these theories are accepted outside of their respective countries, and as a matter of fact, they are not even accepted inside their countries by the majority of the scholars.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Slovenia#Impact_on_historiography


Impact on historiography

Currently the most commonly held (and most rational) belief about the ethnogenesis of the Slovenes is that they are descendants of Slavs, who came to Central Europe in the 6th century AD. Some nationalists, however, are trying to prove that the Slovenes are a master race by spreading the idea that their ancestors have lived in the lands of modern Slovenia since forever prehistory. That, in a nutshell, is the "Venetic theory",[2] and that's exactly where it belongs.

Besides the Venetic theory, the Slovenes are the subject of many other fringe nationalist theories. Illyrism, named for the Byzantine prefecture of Illyricum, argued that the Slovenes were so closely related to other Southern Slavs that they need to be assimilated into one Yugoslavian nation. The "Windischar theory" argued that the Slovenes were actually Windischars (Slavicized Germans); Nazi Germany used this idea to justify the assimilation of Carinthians and Styrians into the German nation. A similar Hungarian theory said that Slovenes are actually "Wends". The Slovenes are one big crank magnet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti#Controversies


Steinacher states: "The name Veneder was introduced by Jordanes. The assumption that these were Slavs can be traced back to the 19th century to Pavel Josef Šafařík from Prague, who tried to establish a Slavic Origin history. Scholars and historians since then viewed the reports on Venedi/Venethi by Tacitus, Pliny and Ptolemy as the earliest historical attestation of Slavs. In addition, phonetic similarity and geographic proximity of the ethnicons Veneti and Vandali inspired an erroneous belief that the Germanic people of Vandals were Slavs as well".[23] Such conceptions, started in the 16th century, resurfaced in 19th century where they provided the basis for interpretations of the history and origins of Slavs.[24]

In 1980s some Slovene scholars proposed a theory according to which the Veneti were Proto-Slavs and bearers of the Lusatian culture along the Amber Path who conquered and settled the region between the Baltic sea and Adriatic Sea, as presented in their book "Veneti - First Builders of European Community". This theory has been criticised and rejected by some Slovenian and other European scholars.[25]

"An Encyclopedia of World History" (William L. Langer, Harvard University, 1940 & 1948), "The Slavs, an eastern branch of the Indo-European family, were known to the Roman and Greek writers of the 1st and 2d centuries A.D. under the name of Venedi as inhabiting the region beyond the Vistula. ... In the course of the early centuries of our era the Slavs expanded in all directions, and by the 6th century, when they were known to Gothic and Byzantine writers as Sclaveni, they were apparently already separated into three main divisions: ..."

First of all the guy who writes all this crap does not use linguistic terms. This is enough for me to understand that he is not a linguist, but an idiot. Unless if you show me that he has a degree in linguistics, I shall call him a crook.

[Novi Pazar]

^ Petros, l'm not sure whether you have read the link at all, it SHOWS CLAY TABLETS and the author has clearly shown the translation meaning 'FRUIT GROWERS NUTS' (AREHA SADARA) via Slavic and not the supposed Alexander which some just arbitrarily brought up!

PS I know the Germanic Nordic School never has USED Slavic to ascertain complex inscriptions, they use Germanic, Latin and even central african languages but Slavic, never....WHY? I think its political!

[rashka]

Yes, but no old Latin terms survive in any Slavic languages at all, which proves that the Slavic languages are a later development than the introduction of Latin in the Balkans. If Slavic had old Latin words, that would mean that the Slavs were here when the Romans conquered the Balkans. They were not.
What were the old Latin words?

[rashka]

PS I know the Germanic Nordic School never has USED Slavic to ascertain complex inscriptions, they use Germanic, Latin and even central african languages but Slavic, never....WHY? I think its political!

I noticed that too since a long time ago and wondered why was that! Always French or German, even Greek, but never any comparison to Slavic languages. For example etymologies of English words would never show anything Slavic as a comparison, yet go to a Proto Indo European word list and most words can be found in the Slavic languages.

[Novi Pazar]

^ EXACTLY, THANKYOU!

Many names of tribes were distorted by Romans, take the Roman fortresses: Andetrion, Anausaro, Andarva/Anderba were in reality a distorted Serbo-Slavic noun 'tvrðava' (fortress; from utvrda, tvrdina, utvrditi, udariti, handriti, nadgraðe etc...); there are a great number of similar examples which are telling us that Serbo-Slavic people were NATIVE to Balkan (exactly as Ana Komnena stated in her work "The Alexiad") a long time before the VI century and alleged "The great-migration of Slavs". Actually, the Slavs inhabited the Balkan Peninsula even in neolithic times (Lepenski vir, later Vinèa) and they were called the Illyrians by Romans.

Anyway, l won't go into it, YET!

[epirot]

You are so fucking stupid

1st off watch your mouth, albanian.



If I tell you that the Greeks who have emigrated in Australia not only speak the same with the Greeks of today, but they are speaking the exact same language, would that argument make mine stronger? No, because the very comparison you started is IDIOTIC.

2nd, Greeks went to Australia in the last 70-100 years, your example is multi-level wrong and weak.
3rd, the fact that Polish and Serbian are closer than e.g. Cretan or Cypriot was to the "dialect" of e.g. Lamia not to speak of "Attica" is another blow to your pathetic argumentation my dear albanian.


The original languages of Poland and Serbia are NOT PROVEN TO BE RELATED to any old language spoken in those areas... Because no such languages or dialects survived the Glagolitic/Old Church Slavonic.

lol, what the lack of original thinking ability can drive a man to resort to! pure BS! 1st Polish is not related to Glagolitic, stop trying to deviate the discussion with ad-hoc BS, in the lack of proper arguments. 2nd The slavic alphabets just a precise written representation of the respective sounds. What a waste of time!

[epirot]

Yes, but no old Latin terms survive in any Slavic languages at all, which proves that the Slavic languages are a later development than the introduction of Latin in the Balkans. If Slavic had old Latin words, that would mean that the Slavs were here when the Romans conquered the Balkans. They were not.

Again you are making blatant mistakes by adopting an assumption as universally true : ROMANS WERE STRONGER THAN THE SLAVS. In order for your above argument to stand, the above assumption must be true. You are just a cultured version of the albanians. Trying to sound "smart" and intellectual at first, but fail to meet the pressure as things get tougher... You are an albanian basically.

[epirot]

^ EXACTLY, THANKYOU!

Many names of tribes were distorted by Romans, take the Roman fortresses: Andetrion, Anausaro, Andarva/Anderba were in reality a distorted Serbo-Slavic noun 'tvrðava' (fortress; from utvrda, tvrdina, utvrditi, udariti, handriti, nadgraðe etc...); there are a great number of similar examples which are telling us that Serbo-Slavic people were NATIVE to Balkan (exactly as Ana Komnena stated in her work "The Alexiad") a long time before the VI century and alleged "The great-migration of Slavs". Actually, the Slavs inhabited the Balkan Peninsula even in neolithic times (Lepenski vir, later Vinèa) and they were called the Illyrians by Romans.

Anyway, l won't go into it, YET!



Man, the "invention" of the connection of the word "SLAV" to the Greek word SKLAVOS (=slave, inferior, etc...) was because some freaking Latin speaking asian-semetic freak tried to transcribe the heavy slavic "L" as "ΘΛ" in greek (ΣΘΛΑΒΟΙ), and because Latin had no Θ (theta), Θ became C in latin, hence SCLAVOI -> ΣΚΛΑΒΟΙ = slaves...

Just reading DAI, i was stunned not only by the unbelievable errors that this porfyrogenitos did in reference to the SLavic words, but also the vast number of spelling errors in Greek! most of the roman eastern elite was far from indoeuropean (Greek-Slavic).

[Novi Pazar]

^ Brate, l'm beginning to question some aspects of DAI also! Epirot, they noted and spelt the names as per their own pronouncination. My mum doesn't pronounce Australia as Australia but as Oust-tral-liya or Oustraliya, or even Melbourne as Melburrn! Even the ancient Shqiptars pronounce America as Nene Amerikes.

True what your saying!

[Petros Houhoulis]

^ Petros, l'm not sure whether you have read the link at all, it SHOWS CLAY TABLETS and the author has clearly shown the translation meaning 'FRUIT GROWERS NUTS' (AREHA SADARA) via Slavic and not the supposed Alexander which some just arbitrarily brought up!

PS I know the Germanic Nordic School never has USED Slavic to ascertain complex inscriptions, they use Germanic, Latin and even central african languages but Slavic, never....WHY? I think its political!

Novi Pazar, can you answer a simple question?

IS THE AUTHOR A LINGUIST?

I bet he isn't. He is not using linguistic jargon... This is enough for me to call him a fake.

[Petros Houhoulis]

What were the old Latin words?

Take the whole Romanian language which is based upon the Ancient Latin language. How come so many Latin words survived in one place of the Balkans (Romanian) but so little survived in other Balkan languages?

This is of course taking into account the Jirecek line.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Bgiusca_Jirecek_Line.jpg

I am not a linguist to tell you those Latin words in specific. I am merely reiterating the orthodox position of the linguists. As a non-linguist, I do not even dare indulge into such details. The only thing that is 100% certain is that the South Slavic languages are missing sufficient Latin terms to make them present at the time of the Roman empires' dominance in the Balkan region (North of the Jirecek line - if south of the Jirecek line the influence should have been more Greek than Latin)

[Petros Houhoulis]

^ EXACTLY, THANKYOU!

Many names of tribes were distorted by Romans, take the Roman fortresses: Andetrion, Anausaro, Andarva/Anderba were in reality a distorted Serbo-Slavic noun 'tvrðava' (fortress; from utvrda, tvrdina, utvrditi, udariti, handriti, nadgraðe etc...); there are a great number of similar examples which are telling us that Serbo-Slavic people were NATIVE to Balkan (exactly as Ana Komnena stated in her work "The Alexiad") a long time before the VI century and alleged "The great-migration of Slavs". Actually, the Slavs inhabited the Balkan Peninsula even in neolithic times (Lepenski vir, later Vinèa) and they were called the Illyrians by Romans.

Anyway, l won't go into it, YET!

Anna Comnena Prior to the VI century???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Comnena


Anna Komnene, Latinized as Comnena (Greek: Άννα Κομνηνή, Anna Komnēnē; 1 December 1083 – 1153) was a Greek princess, scholar, physician, hospital administrator and the daughter of Emperor Alexios I Komnenos of Byzantium and Irene Doukaina.[1] She wrote the Alexiad, an account of her father’s reign, which is unique in that it was written by a princess about her father.[2]

Actually more like the 11th or 12th century A.D. - Unless if you are a Muslim and you use the Islamic calendar. In that case yes, you are referring to the 6th century after Muhhamad...

[Petros Houhoulis]

1st off watch your mouth, albanian.


2nd, Greeks went to Australia in the last 70-100 years, your example is multi-level wrong and weak.
3rd, the fact that Polish and Serbian are closer than e.g. Cretan or Cypriot was to the "dialect" of e.g. Lamia not to speak of "Attica" is another blow to your pathetic argumentation my dear albanian.



lol, what the lack of original thinking ability can drive a man to resort to! pure BS! 1st Polish is not related to Glagolitic, stop trying to deviate the discussion with ad-hoc BS, in the lack of proper arguments. 2nd The slavic alphabets just a precise written representation of the respective sounds. What a waste of time!

You are fucking stupid, there is no doubt about it.

The relation between languages spoken in the same era (Polish and Serbian) cannot be compared to languages spoken in different ears (Ancient and Modern Greek) and whatever else you could possibly add to that is IDIOTIC.

The smaller a distance between languages betrays a smaller divergence from an original common ancestor which is the result of a shorter period of time in history. This is applied equally to genetics and linguistics. My argumentation supports the predominant theory among international scholarship, and your pathetic gibberish is bullshit.

Polish is not related to Glagolitic because the Glagolitic was replaced in very short time by the Cyrillic with the exception of a few isolated areas like Croatia. Nobody suggested that Poland in specific was related to Glagolitic and in my original reference, I used Glagolitic/Old Church Slavonic, not making a distinction between the two for reasons of simplicity.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Again you are making blatant mistakes by adopting an assumption as universally true : ROMANS WERE STRONGER THAN THE SLAVS. In order for your above argument to stand, the above assumption must be true. You are just a cultured version of the albanians. Trying to sound "smart" and intellectual at first, but fail to meet the pressure as things get tougher... You are an albanian basically.

Basically, I do not suggest that the (Latin) Romans were stronger than the Slavs. What I suggest is that when the (Latin) Romans ruled the Balkans, the Slavs were not present in the Balkans. When the Slavs took over the Balkans, there were no old Latin loanwords in their vocabulary, because the (Latin) Romans did never rule over them. Around the same time the Slavs took over the Balkans, the official language of the East Roman empire had switched from Latin to Greek...

[Skerdilaid]

Take the whole Romanian language which is based upon the Ancient Latin language. How come so many Latin words survived in one place of the Balkans (Romanian) but so little survived in other Balkan languages?

This is of course taking into account the Jirecek line.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Bgiusca_Jirecek_Line.jpg

I am not a linguist to tell you those Latin words in specific. I am merely reiterating the orthodox position of the linguists. As a non-linguist, I do not even dare indulge into such details. The only thing that is 100% certain is that both the South Slavic and the Albanian languages are missing sufficient Latin terms to make them present at the time of the Roman empires' dominance in the Balkan region (North of the Jirecek line - if south of the Jirecek line the influence should have been more Greek than Latin)

You are wrong about the Albanian Languge.

Linguists seperate the Latin that entered Albanian in three layers, that date form 200BC to 500AD.

[Petros Houhoulis]

You are wrong about the Albanian Languge.

Linguists seperate the Latin that entered Albanian in three layers, that date form 200BC to 500AD.

Sorry, my mistake. Albanian was indeed in the Balkans, but not in Albania at that time. I'll fix that.

[Skerdilaid]

Sorry, my mistake. Albanian was indeed in the Balkans, but not in Albania at that time. I'll fix that.

Latin borrowing suggests the contrary.

Anyhoo were would you say we were?

[epirot]

You are fucking stupid, there is no doubt about it.

The relation between languages spoken in the same era (Polish and Serbian) cannot be compared to languages spoken in different ears (Ancient and Modern Greek) and whatever else you could possibly add to that is IDIOTIC.

The smaller a distance between languages betrays a smaller divergence from an original common ancestor which is the result of a shorter period of time in history. This is applied equally to genetics and linguistics. My argumentation supports the predominant theory among international scholarship, and your pathetic gibberish is bullshit.

Polish is not related to Glagolitic because the Glagolitic was replaced in very short time by the Cyrillic with the exception of a few isolated areas like Croatia. Nobody suggested that Poland in specific was related to Glagolitic and in my original reference, I used Glagolitic/Old Church Slavonic, not making a distinction between the two for reasons of simplicity.

^^^ an essay in intellectual, spelling and grammatical inefficiency. You freaking albanian, just compare Serb vs Polish and Cretan vs "the greek dialect of Serres" in 1800, all languages/dialects in the same time context. I wont be so generous with you next time if you go on being so moronically incompetent and rude. Learn some manners you freaking albanian, before your next attempt to talk to humans.



The Serbs and Poles can understand each other today because the separation was less than 2.000 years ago... Slavic as we know it today is a byproduct of the development of Glagolitic and Old Church Slavonic. Older forms of speech spoken in Serbia and Poland have little or no relation to either Glagolitic or Old Church Slavonic.




Polish is not related to Glagolitic


According to your logic (God Almighty makes it "logic"), where does Polish exactly stand in your salad made up of new Serbian, old Serbian, new Polish, old Polish and Glagolitic and Old Church Slavonic ???
If use the terms Glagolitic , "OCS" interchangeably, for the sake of simplicity, then i guess, it is safe to assume that Polish is not related to OCS either, right? And since Serbian presumably is heavily influenced by OCS, and taking also into account that the cultural sphere of Poland/Czech has been consistently distant (even artificially) to the Sebrian one THEN HOW THE FUCK HAPPENS THAT TODAY SERBIAN AND POLISH IS SO SIMILAR??? more similar than e.g. the dialect of Epiros vs the dialect of Cyprus was in 1800. In other words two peasant Serb and Pole could understand each other better back in 1800 than a random peasant from Ipiros with a random peasant from Cyprus. Even tho supposedly, we the nation of the 12 Gods and the Cypriots always supposedly belonged to the same sphere right?
Long and short of it, some nations are made artificially to deviate from each other (example the recent developments in "Croatian" and "Montenegrin" languages), while other nations (vlahs, cretans, cypriots) were forced to accept the same language.

Cultural and political pressure was always in order to deviate the Slavs from one another (with the exception of short periods of peace), so the fact that even today Slavs, present such a solid linguistic backbone which persists time and political cultural hostility, could mean only one thing.

It is not clear what exactly you want to prove with the introduction of this new "OCS/glagolithic" argument of yours. Of course whatever you want to mean (hmmm should we use OCS as a tool on why Serb and Polish are still related??? or hmmmm should we use it as an argument to prove the opposite hmm... LOL), it most probably will be false. You have a solid record of falling on layered mutually conflicting contradictions.

Quit with your pathetic word plays and other albanisms AND TALK WITH PRECISION. (but what do i say here?? Precision was always the worse foe of the albanians.... all they do is playing with words and thinking with their mouth mostly)

[epirot]

Basically, I do not suggest that the (Latin) Romans were stronger than the Slavs. What I suggest is that when the (Latin) Romans ruled the Balkans, the Slavs were not present in the Balkans. When the Slavs took over the Balkans, there were no old Latin loanwords in their vocabulary, because the (Latin) Romans did never rule over them. Around the same time the Slavs took over the Balkans, the official language of the East Roman empire had switched from Latin to Greek...

Or, it could be that inferior nations (thracians, dacians, and other unbranded nations) were easily converted to Latin, because Latin was a richer culture, while Latins could not impose their language over the SLavs, because SLavs simply had a stronger culture. Same thing the adoption of Latin by the Celtic populations of france and britain. Those same unbranded nations later switched from Latin to Greek and unfortunately constitute the anti-greek greek-phone mess we see in Greece today, where any freaking albanian lances himself as the truest Greek.

[epirot]

Take the whole Romanian language which is based upon the Ancient Latin language. How come so many Latin words survived in one place of the Balkans (Romanian) but so little survived in other Balkan languages?

This is of course taking into account the Jirecek line.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Bgiusca_Jirecek_Line.jpg

I am not a linguist to tell you those Latin words in specific. I am merely reiterating the orthodox position of the linguists. As a non-linguist, I do not even dare indulge into such details. The only thing that is 100% certain is that the South Slavic languages are missing sufficient Latin terms to make them present at the time of the Roman empires' dominance in the Balkan region (North of the Jirecek line - if south of the Jirecek line the influence should have been more Greek than Latin)

Romanian language is a modern construct. At least of 50% of basic (useful) words used to be Slavic 500 years ago. Their toponyms, their surnames cry from miles away.

Basically the empires needed :

- Hungary
- Romania
in the center, and
- Albania
- Greece
in the south

to break the slavic continuity. Much of what we see today is artificial.

[Crn Volk]

Romanian language is a modern construct. At least of 50% of basic (useful) words used to be Slavic 500 years ago. Basically the empires needed :

- Hungary
- Romania
in the center, and
- Albania
- Greece

to break the slavic continuity.

Much of what we see today is artificial.

Didn't they also use the Cyrillic script until a few decades ago?

[epirot]

^ Brate, l'm beginning to question some aspects of DAI also! Epirot, they noted and spelt the names as per their own pronouncination. My mum doesn't pronounce Australia as Australia but as Oust-tral-liya or Oustraliya, or even Melbourne as Melburrn! Even the ancient Shqiptars pronounce America as Nene Amerikes.

True what your saying!

nene!! LOL i heard some people call it : awsdraya :)

[Novi Pazar]

Or, it could be that inferior nations (thracians, dacians, and other unbranded nations) were easily converted to Latin, because Latin was a richer culture, while Latins could not impose their language over the SLavs, because SLavs simply had a stronger culture. Same thing the adoption of Latin by the Celtic populations of france and britain. Those same unbranded nations later switched from Latin to Greek and unfortunately constitute the anti-greek greek-phone mess we see in Greece today, where any freaking albanian lances himself as the truest Greek.

Epirot, we could also argue from this angle too, that is, Western Historians tell us Thracians and Illyrians were ROMANIZED, these two peoples were assimilated into Slavs, why is it then, that Slavic also lacks ancient latin loan words which Petros keeps highlighting!

[Novi Pazar]

Romanian language is a modern construct. At least of 50% of basic (useful) words used to be Slavic 500 years ago. Their toponyms, their surnames cry from miles away.

Basically the empires needed :

- Hungary
- Romania
in the center, and
- Albania
- Greece
in the south

to break the slavic continuity. Much of what we see today is artificial.

Romanians have been continually adopting Latin, french and Italian loans, these loans are replacing their old Slavic lexicons.

[epirot]

Epirot, we could also argue from this angle too, that is, Western Historians tell us Thracians and Illyrians were ROMANIZED, these two peoples were assimilated into Slavs, why is it then, that Slavic also lacks ancient latin loan words which Petros keeps highlighting!

sound observation my friend. taking into account the ROMA language of those asian nation,

I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE LATIN SPEAKING - VLAHS - GYPSIES - ALBS, etc.... CAME AFTER THE SLAVS as well....

[epirot]

Hmm another theory is that Slavs and the roman rule lived ... in parallel ... just like Slavs and the Turks lived in parallel .... Its very complex to form a solid theory... there has been much mis-information and destruction of real information, loads of virtual reality on the subject.

[Novi Pazar]

sound observation my friend. taking into account the ROMA language of those asian nation,

I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE LATIN SPEAKING - VLAHS - GYPSIES - ALBS, etc.... CAME AFTER THE SLAVS as well....

Not 100% sure about Vlachs (l hopefully will find out in time), but what l have been gathering lately is mind blowing, its leaving me many questions UNANSWERED! The German Nordic School has made the Slavic mass migration theory into a MESS, l've noticed heaps of contradictions, i.e, just as l've said above (Romanised Illyrian and Thracians) leaving nothing behind for Slavs assimilate and absorb!

With certain, the Shqiptars are not NATIVE to the Balkan Peninsula!

[epirot]

^^ At least Greek Vlahs and Albs, both show the same patterns : music, folk dances, mentality, life-style, both living in ex-slavic villages. I know for sure that Metsovo in Ipiros, was named before the Vlahs/Sarakatsans settled there, which simply means smth like the pattern we observe today in Kosovo : Slavs leave under the pressure of NATO/roman empire, vlahs-albs come in. Same pattern Novi bro. The most well hidden keys to Slavic history are obscured and hindered by a supposed fake orthodox brotherhood. Scrap that brotherhood if it stands an obstacle to the Slavic cause.

[Kastrioti1443]

Not 100% sure about Vlachs (l hopefully will find out in time), but what l have been gathering lately is mind blowing, its leaving me many questions UNANSWERED! The German Nordic School has made the Slavic mass migration theory into a MESS, l've noticed heaps of contradictions, i.e, just as l've said above (Romanised Illyrian and Thracians) leaving nothing behind for Slavs assimilate and absorb!

With certain, the Shqiptars are not NATIVE to the Balkan Peninsula!

I am a catholic highlander. I assure you that only one of the 2 ethncities will live in Balkan used to be called Illyrian Penisula. Either slavicised iranians aka serbs or illyrians aka albanians. Both no. That means that you will either be extreminated or leave in Iran where you come from. I assure you for this. When the highlander gives the word, he will keep it evan if the sky crumbles with earth. You are subhumans and animals with racial and historical complexes.

[Novi Pazar]

^^ At least Greek Vlahs and Albs, both show the same patterns : music, folk dances, mentality, life-style, both living in ex-slavic villages. I know for sure that Metsovo in Ipiros, was named before the Vlahs/Sarakatsans settled there, which simply means smth like the pattern we observe today in Kosovo : Slavs leave under the pressure of NATO/roman empire, vlahs-albs come in. Same pattern Novi bro. The most well hidden keys to Slavic history are obscured and hindered by a supposed fake orthodox brotherhood. Scrap that brotherhood if it stands an obstacle to the Slavic cause.

Epirot brate, your right, look at Albania, Shqiptars live in Slavic named everything and then they call themselves 'ANCIENT'! In Kosovo, some Serbs vacate and ones stay behind undergo some Shqiptarisation, then later wonder why they have Slavic surnames and live in Slavic named towns etc....

Ofcourse, Slav infighting is what Shqiptars NEED, without it, they will be pushed into the Adriatic! The Shqiptar momnetum is slowing, l'm seeing it.....this momentum will eventually come to a stop, then, it will start heading towards them, like a bowling ball ready to hit some pins!

[Kastrioti1443]

Epirot brate, your right, look at Albania, Shqiptars live in Slavic named everything and then they call themselves 'ANCIENT'! In Kosovo, some Serbs vacate and ones stay behind undergo some Shqiptarisation, then later wonder why they have Slavic surnames and live in Slavic named towns etc....

Ofcourse, Slav infighting is what Shqiptars NEED, without it, they will be pushed into the Adriatic! The Shqiptar momnetum is slowing, l'm seeing it.....this momentum will eventually come to a stop, then, it will start heading towards them, like a bowling ball ready to hit some pins!


You are not slavs moron, Do not lie to yourself. You are slavicised iranians. You are too dark, in eyes, hair and evan skin. Evan features are not eastern. Lol 55% pure brown eyes, in what slavic country would you see such a think, you are turko-iranians.

[wvwvw]

Sorry, my mistake. Albanian was indeed in the Balkans, but not in Albania at that time. I'll fix that.


Latin borrowing suggests the contrary.

Anyhoo were would you say we were?

You were still in your ratholes... I wish you had stayed there

[Arianiti]

Illyrians never mentioned the word Illyria themselves, the Greeks and Romans named those people inhabiting the lands.
They were just a bunch of tribes spread between Dalmatia and Northern Albania. Albanians were surely one of those tribes dwelling among the mountain chains.

Northern Albania itself is one of the most isolated places of Europe and there would have been reports of migrations from Dacia if they ever occured.

Ylliria, or Illyria, comes from the Albanian word (root) Yll - Star in English. It indicates the meaning "people fallen from the stars"

Don't listen to what this pseudo-history of slaves/sclavionoi/shkavella says.They first were called by Byzantine Empire Sclavinoi, sclave, slaves. They were simple slaves, before they overflew as savages in Illyricum Peninsula, destroying everything as caves' people they were.

[epirot]

You are not slavs moron, Do not lie to yourself. You are slavicised iranians. You are too dark, in eyes, hair and evan skin. Evan features are not eastern. Lol 55% pure brown eyes, in what slavic country would you see such a think, you are turko-iranians.

LOL, you would be shocked to see how many Ukranians, Russians (Sergey Lavrov), Slovaks, heck even Poles could pass for dark Serbs or Bulgarians. Actually, it would make you shit on your pants.

[epirot]

Epirot brate, your right, look at Albania, Shqiptars live in Slavic named everything and then they call themselves 'ANCIENT'! In Kosovo, some Serbs vacate and ones stay behind undergo some Shqiptarisation, then later wonder why they have Slavic surnames and live in Slavic named towns etc....

Ofcourse, Slav infighting is what Shqiptars NEED, without it, they will be pushed into the Adriatic! The Shqiptar momnetum is slowing, l'm seeing it.....this momentum will eventually come to a stop, then, it will start heading towards them, like a bowling ball ready to hit some pins!

Albs do not exist by their own. Once the western empires leave, albs are history. No need to drive anyone to the adriatic. Those zombies will exterminate themselves by some easily ignited inter-family war. Feed them Serbian alcohol and Serbian guns and they will make it even easier LOL.... Then let the Serb army rush in and clean any remaining filth.

[Novi Pazar]

.........

[Novi Pazar]

The areal asymmetry of the Slavic areal distribution

As a specialist in geolinguistics, I have always been surprised by the fact that Slavic
specialists have failed in noticing or appreciating the extraordinary diagnostic value –
from a geolinguistic point of view – of the asymmetric configuration of the Slavic area.
Even more so since the cause of this asymmetry is quite well-known, and explicitly
stated in all handbooks for first-year students of Slavic: Northern Slavic does not form a single unit, but each of its two branchings – the Western and the Eastern – shares
different features with Southern Slavic.
Now, from a geolinguistic point of view, there is just one explanation possible
for this peculiar and transparent areal configuration: Southern Slavic must form the
earlier core, while the two Northern branchings must be a later development, each with
its proper history and identity. No other explanation is possible, unless one challenges
the very raison d’etre of IE and Proto-Slavic reconstruction, besides common sense.
Needless to say, this simple remark demolishes the whole construction of the
Slavic homeland in Middle Eastern Europe and of the Slavic migration in traditional
terms, as well as all of its corollaries. But let us check the other two points, before
developing it further within the framework of the PCT.

[Kastrioti1443]

Albs do not exist by their own. Once the western empires leave, albs are history. No need to drive anyone to the adriatic. Those zombies will exterminate themselves by some easily ignited inter-family war. Feed them Serbian alcohol and Serbian guns and they will make it even easier LOL.... Then let the Serb army rush in and clean any remaining filth.

Hahahahahahahahaha little nigger hybrid. Why don't you come subhuman and deliver the alchool by yourself???

[Novi Pazar]

The Slavic enormous expansion

The only evidence for a great migration of Slavs in historical times that traditional
scholars can possibly claim lies in a literal reading of the mentions of medieval
historians, such as the Thracian Priscus of Panion (5th century), the Greek Procopius of
Cesarea (6th century) and the Goth Jordanes (6th century), or those of the Church (e.g.
Conte 1990, 33-34). But it is quite evident that such mentions do not point
unambiguously to an ‘invasion’ or ‘migration’ of Slavs, but can just as simply be taken
as to refer to pre-existing Slavs, the presence of which even traditional scholars now
admit. When, for example, John of Ephesos, bishop of Constantinopolis under Justinian
(527-65) mentions the innumerable raids into the Bizantine territori by “the damned
people of the Slavs” he damns them because they were still pagan, and not because they
are ‘arriving’! And when, in his De rebus Gethicis Jordanes describes the location of
the Venedi, and writes that they inhabited the area “From the source of the Visla river
and on incommensurable expanses”, he does not give the slightest indication of a recent
arrival of theirs, but simply describes a statu quo. And I challenge Slavic specialists to
find any indication of a recent arrival of the Slavs in their area in other medieval
sources.
Not only, but when earlier historians, living in the centuries preceding the
supposed arrival of the Slavs, write that the population of the Carpatian Basin offered a
drink called medos (Proto-Slavic medŭ ‘drink produced with honey”) the Byzantine
ambassadors directed to the court of Attila (king of the Huns), and that a part of the
funeral rituals for Attila’s death was called strava (medieval name of a Slavic funeral
ritual), only a biased reader can find evidence in this for the “first infiltrations” of Slavs
in the Carpatian area, especially as they seem to have left not trace of their coming!
(Neustupný-Neustupný 1963, 196).
The much simpler truth is that the Slavs were there from remote times. For,
again, the first mention of peoples in writing depends on the birthday of writing, and not
on the birthday of peoples!
In short, if such an enormous expansion of the Slavs both to the South and to the
North from their alleged homeland in Middle-Eastern Europe had really taken place, the
most important evidence we should expect to find would be archaeological. Which is
entirely missing. Just as we miss any discussion of this point in Mallory’s book –and
certainly not by accident, given the fact that Mallory is an archaeologist. I fail to see,
then, how an archaeologist can advance the hypothesis of a massive expansion that
involves half of Europe, and is capable of entirely changing its linguistic identity,
without the slightest archaeological evidence: unless it is a curious case of
underestimation of one’s own science.

Another fundamental objection to this thesis lies in the fact that, following the
traditional scenario, we would have to assume that this ‘great migration’ involved also
the Southern Slavic area: an absolute impossibility, as we have just seen. If there has
been a ‘migration’, it must have proceded from South northwards.
A third, fundamental objection to this thesis is the contradiction between the
idea of a medieval migration and the total disappearance of the presumed pre-existing
languages. Not even modern mass migration and colonization, despite the enormous
technological and cultural difference between the migrants and the indigenous people,
have caused the total extinction of all autocthonous languages in the New World. The
ideal of the extinction of all alleged pre-Indo-European languages because of a Copper
Age IE migration is already hard enough to admit, given the same reason, plus the fact
that research on pre-Indo-European has never produced any serious result (Alinei 1996,
2000). How can we accept such an idea for the Early Middle Ages, and for the highly
civilized areas of Southern Eastern prehistoric Europe? What and where would the pre-
Indo-European substrate be in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and
Slovenia? Unless we associate this late migration to a gigantic genocide – a
phantascientific hypothesis – this hypothesis does not belong to serious scientific
thinking.

[Novi Pazar]

Hahahahahahahahaha little nigger hybrid. Why don't you come subhuman and deliver the alchool by yourself???

Can a mod clean up these Shqiptar posts, they ruin the topic!

[Arianiti]

Albs do not exist by their own. Once the western empires leave, albs are history. No need to drive anyone to the adriatic. Those zombies will exterminate themselves by some easily ignited inter-family war. Feed them Serbian alcohol and Serbian guns and they will make it even easier LOL.... Then let the Serb army rush in and clean any remaining filth.

Epirot and Emathia (Macedonia)


Epir, Albanian Shqiperi you stupid shepherd vlach

Emathia, Albanian Emadhia. Macedonia




It is the Albanian Language that is God's Language.

Slaves, sclavinoi Albanian shkavell. This word shkavell in Albanian is as old as Byzantine Empire, and it is the word for sclaves slaves.

[Scholarios]

Kastriot- stop acting insane,please. calling someone "nigger" is not called for in a conversation about demography from 1200 years ago.

everyone else- what is wrong with the Slavs being "just slavs" and not Thracians, Illyrians, etc? I really don't see any reason to doubt history. Slavs are huge and glorious people. They influenced us Greeks, Albanians, Latins , even if Slavophobic members of this forum don't want to admit it. But these theories about Slavic continuity in Balkans can't lead anywhere.. they can't get accepted because they just fly in the face of too many facts- including dozens of Byzantine narratives, linguistic data,toponymy, and the chronicles of the Slavs themselves! Why Slavonyms in Greece only appeared after Byzantine chronicles mention collapse of Danube Frontier? Why liquid metastasis happens only after Slavs settle and contact with other Balkanites? You are confusing the fact that Slavs mixed and mingled and raided with other native peoples, including Vlachs and took up their culture. But the very idea of a Slav is entirely contingent upon Byzantine narrative of the breaking of the frontier in the 5th Century.

1400 in Balkans is long enough.. you are indigenous... there is nothing to prove.

[Scholarios]

double post

[Kastrioti1443]

Kastriot- stop acting insane,please. calling someone "nigger" is not called for in a conversation about demography from 1200 years ago.

everyone else- what is wrong with the Slavs being "just slavs" and not Thracians, Illyrians, etc? I really don't see any reason to doubt history. Slavs are huge and glorious people. They influenced us Greeks, Albanians, Latins , even if Slavophobic members of this forum don't want to admit it. But these theories about Slavic continuity in Balkans can't lead anywhere.. they can't get accepted because they just fly in the face of too many facts- including dozens of Byzantine narratives, linguistic data,toponymy, and the chronicles of the Slavs themselves! Why Slavonyms in Greece only appeared after Byzantine chronicles mention collapse of Danube Frontier? Why liquid metastasis happens only after Slavs settle and contact with other Balkanites? You are confusing the fact that Slavs mixed and mingled and raided with other native peoples, including Vlachs and took up their culture. But the very idea of a Slav is entirely contingent upon Byzantine narrative of the breaking of the frontier in the 5th Century.

1400 in Balkans is long enough.. you are indigenous... there is nothing to prove.



He deserves it..... no posting here is objective, full of hate, like we have raped all their mothers.....

[Skerdilaid]

Albs do not exist by their own. Once the western empires leave, albs are history. No need to drive anyone to the adriatic. Those zombies will exterminate themselves by some easily ignited inter-family war. Feed them Serbian alcohol and Serbian guns and they will make it even easier LOL.... Then let the Serb army rush in and clean any remaining filth.

Can I put an order for some Loza and while at it couple 9mm Zastavas.

As a tip I will let you clean up the mess .:)

[Skerdilaid]

You were still in your ratholes... I wish you had stayed there

Well sweetie who stole your cookie let me know I swear I will make them pay:)

We lived as true hawks of the mountains, anyone who passed through our lands stated just that.

I wish I could say the same for you.

[epirot]

Didn't they also use the Cyrillic script until a few decades ago?

don't know about their alphabet bro, all i know is that yes is DA!

[epirot]

The Slavic enormous expansion

The only evidence for a great migration of Slavs in historical times that traditional
scholars can possibly claim lies in a literal reading of the mentions of medieval
historians, such as the Thracian Priscus of Panion (5th century), the Greek Procopius of
Cesarea (6th century) and the Goth Jordanes (6th century), or those of the Church (e.g.
Conte 1990, 33-34). But it is quite evident that such mentions do not point
unambiguously to an ‘invasion’ or ‘migration’ of Slavs, but can just as simply be taken
as to refer to pre-existing Slavs, the presence of which even traditional scholars now
admit. When, for example, John of Ephesos, bishop of Constantinopolis under Justinian
(527-65) mentions the innumerable raids into the Bizantine territori by “the damned
people of the Slavs” he damns them because they were still pagan, and not because they
are ‘arriving’! And when, in his De rebus Gethicis Jordanes describes the location of
the Venedi, and writes that they inhabited the area “From the source of the Visla river
and on incommensurable expanses”, he does not give the slightest indication of a recent
arrival of theirs, but simply describes a statu quo. And I challenge Slavic specialists to
find any indication of a recent arrival of the Slavs in their area in other medieval
sources.
Not only, but when earlier historians, living in the centuries preceding the
supposed arrival of the Slavs, write that the population of the Carpatian Basin offered a
drink called medos (Proto-Slavic medŭ ‘drink produced with honey”) the Byzantine
ambassadors directed to the court of Attila (king of the Huns), and that a part of the
funeral rituals for Attila’s death was called strava (medieval name of a Slavic funeral
ritual), only a biased reader can find evidence in this for the “first infiltrations” of Slavs
in the Carpatian area, especially as they seem to have left not trace of their coming!
(Neustupný-Neustupný 1963, 196).
The much simpler truth is that the Slavs were there from remote times. For,
again, the first mention of peoples in writing depends on the birthday of writing, and not
on the birthday of peoples!
In short, if such an enormous expansion of the Slavs both to the South and to the
North from their alleged homeland in Middle-Eastern Europe had really taken place, the
most important evidence we should expect to find would be archaeological. Which is
entirely missing. Just as we miss any discussion of this point in Mallory’s book –and
certainly not by accident, given the fact that Mallory is an archaeologist. I fail to see,
then, how an archaeologist can advance the hypothesis of a massive expansion that
involves half of Europe, and is capable of entirely changing its linguistic identity,
without the slightest archaeological evidence: unless it is a curious case of
underestimation of one’s own science.

Another fundamental objection to this thesis lies in the fact that, following the
traditional scenario, we would have to assume that this ‘great migration’ involved also
the Southern Slavic area: an absolute impossibility, as we have just seen. If there has
been a ‘migration’, it must have proceded from South northwards.
A third, fundamental objection to this thesis is the contradiction between the
idea of a medieval migration and the total disappearance of the presumed pre-existing
languages. Not even modern mass migration and colonization, despite the enormous
technological and cultural difference between the migrants and the indigenous people,
have caused the total extinction of all autocthonous languages in the New World. The
ideal of the extinction of all alleged pre-Indo-European languages because of a Copper
Age IE migration is already hard enough to admit, given the same reason, plus the fact
that research on pre-Indo-European has never produced any serious result (Alinei 1996,
2000). How can we accept such an idea for the Early Middle Ages, and for the highly
civilized areas of Southern Eastern prehistoric Europe? What and where would the pre-
Indo-European substrate be in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and
Slovenia? Unless we associate this late migration to a gigantic genocide – a
phantascientific hypothesis – this hypothesis does not belong to serious scientific
thinking.

you scored big time brate.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Latin borrowing suggests the contrary.

Anyhoo were would you say we were?

The borrowing of Latin into Albanian in comparison to the borrowing of Latin into Romanian suggests that the Albanians had much lesser influences from Latin than the Romanians. It proves that the Albanians were inside the Balkans, but not under strong Roman control. The absence of sufficient Greek in Albanian proves that the Albanians lived somewhere north of the Jirecek line. The affinity between Romanian and Albanian suggests that the Albanians lived near the Romanians at some point in history. The most likely is that you lived in Dacia, although a location more to the west and exactly north of modern Albania cannot be rejected either.

[Petros Houhoulis]

^^^ an essay in intellectual, spelling and grammatical inefficiency. You freaking albanian, just compare Serb vs Polish and Cretan vs "the greek dialect of Serres" in 1800, all languages/dialects in the same time context. I wont be so generous with you next time if you go on being so moronically incompetent and rude. Learn some manners you freaking albanian, before your next attempt to talk to humans.

Why should I compare two languages in modern times (Serb and Polish) and two dialects of the same language in different timeframes (Cretan vs the Greek dialect of Serres in 1800) instead of comparing everything at the same timeframe? You don't use any logic at all other than in a ridiculous attempt to deny that Greek was spoken in Serres at 1800.


According to your logic (God Almighty makes it "logic"), where does Polish exactly stand in your salad made up of new Serbian, old Serbian, new Polish, old Polish and Glagolitic and Old Church Slavonic ???

In your arse.


If use the terms Glagolitic , "OCS" interchangeably, for the sake of simplicity, then i guess, it is safe to assume that Polish is not related to OCS either, right?

I didn't use the terms Glagolitic and Old Church Slavonic interchangeably you idiot. I used BOTH terms in sake of simplicity, not any single of them implying both of them. Polish is related to Old Church Slavonic you bozohead...


And since Serbian presumably is heavily influenced by OCS, and taking also into account that the cultural sphere of Poland/Czech has been consistently distant (even artificially) to the Sebrian one THEN HOW THE FUCK HAPPENS THAT TODAY SERBIAN AND POLISH IS SO SIMILAR???

Because both of them had a common starting point in Old Church Slavonic about a millenium ago.


more similar than e.g. the dialect of Epiros vs the dialect of Cyprus was in 1800. In other words two peasant Serb and Pole could understand each other better back in 1800 than a random peasant from Ipiros with a random peasant from Cyprus. Even tho supposedly, we the nation of the 12 Gods and the Cypriots always supposedly belonged to the same sphere right?

Yes, but Epirotes and Cypriots begun diverging from each other in terms of linguistics more than two thousand years ago, not just one thousand years ago dear bozohead.


Long and short of it, some nations are made artificially to deviate from each other (example the recent developments in "Croatian" and "Montenegrin" languages), while other nations (vlahs, cretans, cypriots) were forced to accept the same language.

Serbs and Poles were also forced to accept the same language about a thousand years ago.


Cultural and political pressure was always in order to deviate the Slavs from one another (with the exception of short periods of peace), so the fact that even today Slavs, present such a solid linguistic backbone which persists time and political cultural hostility, could mean only one thing.

...That you are an idiot.


It is not clear what exactly you want to prove with the introduction of this new "OCS/glagolithic" argument of yours. Of course whatever you want to mean (hmmm should we use OCS as a tool on why Serb and Polish are still related??? or hmmmm should we use it as an argument to prove the opposite hmm... LOL), it most probably will be false. You have a solid record of falling on layered mutually conflicting contradictions.

I just used it to prove that the Slavic languages as a whole are more recent constructions than the Greek language. It is not my fault if you are so stupid to understand that.


Quit with your pathetic word plays and other albanisms AND TALK WITH PRECISION. (but what do i say here?? Precision was always the worse foe of the albanians.... all they do is playing with words and thinking with their mouth mostly)

Albanian is your arse.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Or, it could be that inferior nations (thracians, dacians, and other unbranded nations) were easily converted to Latin, because Latin was a richer culture, while Latins could not impose their language over the SLavs, because SLavs simply had a stronger culture. Same thing the adoption of Latin by the Celtic populations of france and britain. Those same unbranded nations later switched from Latin to Greek and unfortunately constitute the anti-greek greek-phone mess we see in Greece today, where any freaking albanian lances himself as the truest Greek.

If the Slavs were a "stronger" culture, they would at least have literacy and written records. Unfortunately, even the Bulgars were better at this compared to the Slavs. The Bulgars did have a written language of their own, later they switched to Greek letters, and then to Glagolitic, and finally to Cyrillic. Nevertheless, their Turkic proto-Bulgar language was gone anyway...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar_language

If the Slavs had a superior culture, they would have bothered to leave songs and other testament pointing to their origins, and none of us now would have to argue about their past. Unfortunately they were a weak culture at their beginning, and they did not preserve their heritage, and as a result all of us are forced today to speculate about their origins...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Romanian language is a modern construct. At least of 50% of basic (useful) words used to be Slavic 500 years ago. Their toponyms, their surnames cry from miles away.

Basically the empires needed :

- Hungary
- Romania
in the center, and
- Albania
- Greece
in the south

to break the slavic continuity. Much of what we see today is artificial.

It is true that the modern Romanian is a bit of a modern construct that has purged its' Slavic heritage by a large part, but that cannot hide the fact that plenty of those Romanian words are related to Ancient Latin than modern Italian.

In any case, the absence of sufficient Ancient Latin words in any of the Slavic languages proves that the Slavs did not live in the Balkans when the Romans ruled over it.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Hmm another theory is that Slavs and the roman rule lived ... in parallel ... just like Slavs and the Turks lived in parallel .... Its very complex to form a solid theory... there has been much mis-information and destruction of real information, loads of virtual reality on the subject.

Yet a lot of Turkish words survived in all of the former Ottoman dominions. No Ancient Latin words survived in any Slavic language. There is nothing parallel between Latin and Slavic.

[Petros Houhoulis]

The areal asymmetry of the Slavic areal distribution

As a specialist in geolinguistics, I have always been surprised by the fact that Slavic
specialists have failed in noticing or appreciating the extraordinary diagnostic value –
from a geolinguistic point of view – of the asymmetric configuration of the Slavic area.
Even more so since the cause of this asymmetry is quite well-known, and explicitly
stated in all handbooks for first-year students of Slavic: Northern Slavic does not form a single unit, but each of its two branchings – the Western and the Eastern – shares
different features with Southern Slavic.
Now, from a geolinguistic point of view, there is just one explanation possible
for this peculiar and transparent areal configuration: Southern Slavic must form the
earlier core, while the two Northern branchings must be a later development, each with
its proper history and identity. No other explanation is possible, unless one challenges
the very raison d’etre of IE and Proto-Slavic reconstruction, besides common sense.
Needless to say, this simple remark demolishes the whole construction of the
Slavic homeland in Middle Eastern Europe and of the Slavic migration in traditional
terms, as well as all of its corollaries. But let us check the other two points, before
developing it further within the framework of the PCT.

There is little doubt that the Slavic language started from the South and extended northwards. The south part though was a bit north of the Danube, and it moved southwards too just after the collapse of the Roman control in the Balkans. What you should take into account above all though is that Literacy for the Slavs started in the Balkans and move north over time, and this literacy had an even greater impact than the original homeland of the Slavs in the development of the Slavic languages in the long term.

[Petros Houhoulis]

The Slavic enormous expansion

The only evidence for a great migration of Slavs in historical times that traditional
scholars can possibly claim lies in a literal reading of the mentions of medieval
historians, such as the Thracian Priscus of Panion (5th century), the Greek Procopius of
Cesarea (6th century) and the Goth Jordanes (6th century), or those of the Church (e.g.
Conte 1990, 33-34). But it is quite evident that such mentions do not point
unambiguously to an ‘invasion’ or ‘migration’ of Slavs, but can just as simply be taken
as to refer to pre-existing Slavs, the presence of which even traditional scholars now
admit. When, for example, John of Ephesos, bishop of Constantinopolis under Justinian
(527-65) mentions the innumerable raids into the Bizantine territori by “the damned
people of the Slavs” he damns them because they were still pagan, and not because they
are ‘arriving’! And when, in his De rebus Gethicis Jordanes describes the location of
the Venedi, and writes that they inhabited the area “From the source of the Visla river
and on incommensurable expanses”, he does not give the slightest indication of a recent
arrival of theirs, but simply describes a statu quo. And I challenge Slavic specialists to
find any indication of a recent arrival of the Slavs in their area in other medieval
sources.
Not only, but when earlier historians, living in the centuries preceding the
supposed arrival of the Slavs, write that the population of the Carpatian Basin offered a
drink called medos (Proto-Slavic medŭ ‘drink produced with honey”) the Byzantine
ambassadors directed to the court of Attila (king of the Huns), and that a part of the
funeral rituals for Attila’s death was called strava (medieval name of a Slavic funeral
ritual), only a biased reader can find evidence in this for the “first infiltrations” of Slavs
in the Carpatian area, especially as they seem to have left not trace of their coming!
(Neustupný-Neustupný 1963, 196).
The much simpler truth is that the Slavs were there from remote times. For,
again, the first mention of peoples in writing depends on the birthday of writing, and not
on the birthday of peoples!
In short, if such an enormous expansion of the Slavs both to the South and to the
North from their alleged homeland in Middle-Eastern Europe had really taken place, the
most important evidence we should expect to find would be archaeological. Which is
entirely missing. Just as we miss any discussion of this point in Mallory’s book –and
certainly not by accident, given the fact that Mallory is an archaeologist. I fail to see,
then, how an archaeologist can advance the hypothesis of a massive expansion that
involves half of Europe, and is capable of entirely changing its linguistic identity,
without the slightest archaeological evidence: unless it is a curious case of
underestimation of one’s own science.

Another fundamental objection to this thesis lies in the fact that, following the
traditional scenario, we would have to assume that this ‘great migration’ involved also
the Southern Slavic area: an absolute impossibility, as we have just seen. If there has
been a ‘migration’, it must have proceded from South northwards.
A third, fundamental objection to this thesis is the contradiction between the
idea of a medieval migration and the total disappearance of the presumed pre-existing
languages. Not even modern mass migration and colonization, despite the enormous
technological and cultural difference between the migrants and the indigenous people,
have caused the total extinction of all autocthonous languages in the New World. The
ideal of the extinction of all alleged pre-Indo-European languages because of a Copper
Age IE migration is already hard enough to admit, given the same reason, plus the fact
that research on pre-Indo-European has never produced any serious result (Alinei 1996,
2000). How can we accept such an idea for the Early Middle Ages, and for the highly
civilized areas of Southern Eastern prehistoric Europe? What and where would the pre-
Indo-European substrate be in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and
Slovenia? Unless we associate this late migration to a gigantic genocide – a
phantascientific hypothesis – this hypothesis does not belong to serious scientific
thinking.

The hole in the reasoning here is that the only way of spreading a culture or language over other languages or cultures is by committing a complete genocide upon the earlier populations. This is obviously not true. The Turks for example did not impose their language in modern Turkey by killing all of those who spoke non-Turkish. This is certainly not true. What explains the expansion of Slavic languages over the Balkans can be explained only partially by genocide and mostly by assimilation. There are also languages like the Illyrian and the Liburnian which do not share an affinity with any modern Slavic languages, and they raise the question of why did they get extinct while the supposedly "ancient Slavic" languages next to them managed to survive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnian_language


The Liburnian language is an extinct language which was spoken by the ancient Liburnians, who occupied Liburnia in classical times. The Liburnian language is reckoned as an Indo-European language, in the Centum group. Alternative speculations place it on the same Indo-European branch as the Venetic language or on a separate branch.

Since Liburnian was Centum, it cannot be related either to any form of Proto-Albanian or Proto-Slavic (both of them Satem). Illyrian on the other hand is too scarce to determine if it was Centum or Satem (and most likely it was composed of many different languages which included both Centum and Satem varieties)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Liburnia_1st_AD.png

[Petros Houhoulis]

Epirot and Emathia (Macedonia)


Epir, Albanian Shqiperi you stupid shepherd vlach

Emathia, Albanian Emadhia. Macedonia




It is the Albanian Language that is God's Language.

Slaves, sclavinoi Albanian shkavell. This word shkavell in Albanian is as old as Byzantine Empire, and it is the word for sclaves slaves.

There is no relation between Emathia and Albania. Emathia is too far south of the Jirecek line.

[Novi Pazar]

Petros, l would like you to have a read of the following:

Liburnia in ancient times (11th to 1st century BC) was the alleged land of the Liburnians, a region along the northeastern Adriatic coast. Of course, there is no serious scientist in the world who would be able to explain did the Liburnian exist or not as a tribal name in Balkan. The fact is that we today have the toponyms in the Balkan which confirm that Liburnia's name was present along the whole Adriatic coast as well as it was present in the far interior of the Balkan Peninsula.

The name Labrani (or Liburni) was not limited to the Balkan area and here we can adduce the name of the city Livorno, situated on the Tyrrhenian Sea on the western edge of Tuscany, Italy. The cenral point of the supposed Liburnian land was the town Lovran (Italian Laurana) - located on the eastern coast of Istria, in the Bay of Kvarner. It would be interesting to mention another town, this time in the northern part of Serbia, close to the Romanian border, with the name Alibunar.

According to the local legend, Alibunar was named after Ali-paša (Ali-pasha), who had a cattle and a well at this place (Kruševo monument 1713). Nevertheless, the Serbian word 'bunar' has been derived from the older word 'oblivanje' (suffuse), over 'livanje' and 'livarenje' (pooring in; Leva Reka = Left River; Serbian surname Ljevar, Levar); i.e. from LIBANJE and LIBARENJE1 - liburn => buran /Serb. bure, burence burrel/ => bunar (well, Ger. Brunnen); hence the French 'lavoir' (wash basin, Serb. lavor), Latin 'labrum' (lip, edge, basin).

At this place, it is necessary to explain where (and how) the Latin words 'labrum' and 'labium' appeared form. We shall see that there is an unusual inter-relation among the Latin 'labium' (lip), German 'Liebe'2, English 'love' and the Serbian verb 'ljubiti' (kiss), 'ljubav' (love). They are very close to each other not only phonetically but also semantically and logically. There is a litlle chance to understand the history of the words 'love' and 'lip' (labium, Serb. ljubim = I love) if the one of the Slavic languages (the Serbian is the best because of its "shepherd" structure) is not taken in serious consideration.

Namely, in order to comprehend this "fervent love-affair" we must go back to the primordial flash of the flaming sun and to the coast of the eternal River, which waves passionately suffuse (Serb. oblivati, oblivanje; obliva) the both River's coasts. The Latin 'libatio' is the word coming from the same source as the Serbian 'livati / levati' (to pour... beverage etc.). The hand that holds the empty glass that nedeed to be filled up (Serb. liti, levati), has been named 'left' (Serb. leva).

When the boy kisses the girl he suffuses (Serb. obliva) the both girl's lips in the same way as the river suffuses the both of its coasts (Serb. obala). It is the reason why the Serbian verbs 'oblivati (suffuse, splash)' and 'obljubiti' (kiss, intercourse) have te same reduplicated BEL form (sun god BEL, Serbian OBLO round as the sun, OBALA coast; the round form of the riverbank; sloping land - especially the slope beside a body of water).

Now, when we have resolved our "no LOVE LEFT" problem we are ready to visit the river Lab (in the south of Serbia), according to wich some ancient tribe named themselves LABANI3 (Labeati on the territory of today’s Republic of Monte Negro, from Skadar to Podgorica). As we can see from the above explnation, Lab is a clear-cut Serbian name of river and it means 'oblivati' (suffuse), 'livati' (pour), 'ljubiti' (kiss), 'plaviti' (flood) and 'obljuba' (water-coast intercourse). Additionally, there is the river with the same name as the Serbian LAB in the north of Germany, the Slavic LABA (German Elbe; the same metathesis as LABANI => ALBANI). Is there anything else we would have needed as a final proof that so-called Illyrian language never existed? The same is with the Albanian nation (Sqiptar), which adopted the Roman calque of the Serbian regional name Labani.

At the end, let us be reminded of the Serbian/Slavic personal names like Lovro, Lovrenović, Lavrnić, Lubarda, Ljubović, Ljubo, Ljuban, Labus, Labud and the place names Ljubovo, Lapovo, LJUBLJANA, LIPLJAN (the town in Kosovo, Serbia; the same BEL-BEL basis as Ljubljana; Serb. ljubljenje kissing; OBLJUBITI => POLJUBITI => LJUBLJENJE kissing). LJIPLJAN4 is the one of the numberless evidences that the Serbian toponymic names in Balkan were distorted by Romans – Ulpiana is a deformed name of the Serbian Lipljan).

1Labranda, a town of Caria, 8 m. from Mylasa. Famous for a temple of Jupiter Labrandenus or Labradeus (" with the hatchet"). Built by Labrandus the Curet. Labris, a town of Arabia Felix, Yemen, S.E., between Gerra and Inapha. El Labrin. Libarna (Libarnum), a town of the Statielli, Liguria, between Caristum and Genua. Lavezzara. Leborini campi, a district of the Phlegraei campi, bet. Cumae and Puteoli. Hence was derived the modern name of Campania. Terra di Lavoro.

2 Liba, I. a town of Cyrenaica, w. above Crocodilum prom. II. of Mygdonia, Mesopotamia, s.e. of Nisibis (Nisibia, Nisibin, modern Nusaybin, Mardin Province, south-eastern Turkey; river Nišava and Niš, town in Serbia). Libana (Labbana), a town of Arabene, Mesopotamia, on the Tigris, between Betuma and Mespyla. Mosul. Labona fl., a r. of Liguria, falling into Ligusticus sin. at Ad Navalia; Labona, village in Lebanon. Mount Labus of Hyrcania, towards Zadra-carta the capital of Hyrcania, north-central, Iran (Astarabad); Labus, town north of Koszalin, Poland. Labuta m., a N.E. continuation of Caspius mountain, separating Hyrcania from Parthia.

3 Lebena, a town on the s. coast of Crete, E. of Leon prom., the E. port of Gortys. Mitropoli. Labeatis palus, a lake of the Labeates, Iliyria, on the borders of the Dalmatia, formed by Barbana fl. Lago di Scutari, todays river Boyana; compare the Serbian words 'borba' (fight, struggle) and 'boy' (fight); in addition, there is the village Barban in Istria, 28 km northeast of Pula, above the Raša river valley. Toponyms in Serbia, river Lab, town and river Raška, river Boyana (ancient Barbana), towns Lebane, Lipljan; toponyms in Istria, town Labin, river Raša, village Barban, Ljubljana in Slovenia; Skadar (Skutari, Shkodra) in Albania and Skradin (Lat. Scardona) in Dalmatia; Serbian surname Škundrić, Škondrić (from Alexander the Great).

4 Libici, a tribe of Salyes, GalliaTranspadana, on Padus fl., w. of the Levi, bet. Novaria fl. and Duria Maj. fl. About Vercellae (Serbian surnames Brklja, Brekalo, Brecalo; Prekale village in Kosovo). Lübeck, the second largest city in Schleswig-Holstein, in northern Germany; from the Serbian Ljubić, Ljubica, ljubak (lovely), Serbian surname Ljubek and name Ljupko. Lublin is the biggest city in eastern Poland and the capital of Lublin Voivodeship. Lublin is the same name as the Serbian Lipljan (in Kosovo) and Slovenian Ljubljana. There is no a single place name in Kosovo which is not of the Serbian origin.

[epirot]

Why should I compare two languages in modern times (Serb and Polish) and two dialects of the same language in different timeframes (Cretan vs the Greek dialect of Serres in 1800) instead of comparing everything at the same timeframe? You don't use any logic at all other than in a ridiculous attempt to deny that Greek was spoken in Serres at 1800.In your arse.I didn't use the terms Glagolitic and Old Church Slavonic interchangeably you idiot. I used BOTH terms in sake of simplicity, not any single of them implying both of them. Polish is related to Old Church Slavonic you bozohead...Because both of them had a common starting point in Old Church Slavonic about a millenium ago.Yes, but Epirotes and Cypriots begun diverging from each other in terms of linguistics more than two thousand years ago, not just one thousand years ago dear bozohead.Serbs and Poles were also forced to accept the same language about a thousand years ago....That you are an idiot. I just used it to prove that the Slavic languages as a whole are more recent constructions than the Greek language. It is not my fault if you are so stupid to understand that.

Albanian is your arse.

to ask you to correct your own made multiple-layered and repeated mistakes (not to talk about your not-existent manners) would be considered unrealistic optimism. Basically, what you do is play with words, confusing terms, concepts and processes, praying each time that others just wont notice, while trying to sound as aggressive (your only method to promote your fake self-confidence) in order to cover your obvious weaknesses. It is blatant easy for someone smarter than you (99% of living mammals) to drive you in contradictions in less than two rounds of posts!! only to have you come back, with more insults to cover up your vacant argumentation.

You lil albanian retard OCS is rather a modern artificial construct as a concept, and either way, it aimed at the religious elite as target group, not at all at how people used to talk. Languages are something much much older than their written forms, which is also a relative modern construct.

Get some Mario Alinei (google him), read him, GTFO, and don't come back till you have done your homework. That should free us from your presence for at least 1-2 years LOL.

[epirot]

Yet a lot of Turkish words survived in all of the former Ottoman dominions. No Ancient Latin words survived in any Slavic language. There is nothing parallel between Latin and Slavic.

i have proved that Latin speech (and non-slavic in general) in south balkans WAS A RECENT DEVELOPMENT. (Vlahs in metsovo being a blatant example). Latins speakers REPLACED the slavs. So the pattern is : (ancient) Slavs go, modern unbranded greko-alb-vlahs come in. The pattern is still alive today in Kosovo. What happens today is the same with what happened in (by today's geo term) Greece/Albania 1000+ years ago.

[epirot]

What you should take into account above all though is that Literacy for the Slavs started in the Balkans and move north over time, and this literacy had an even greater impact than the original homeland of the Slavs in the development of the Slavic languages in the long term.

Literacy has nothing to do with languages you illiterate piece of albanian cunt. Even the homeric poems were known to be sang 100s of years before they were written down. As again said, read some Mario Alinei, to boost up your under performing albanian sight.

[epirot]

The hole in the reasoning here is that the only way of spreading a culture or language over other languages or cultures is by committing a complete genocide upon the earlier populations. This is obviously not true.

No idiotic piece of albanian excrement, there are more ways actually, and Alinei makes implicit use of them :
1) genocide - the one practiced generally by your west-imperial-boot-licking albanian kind
2) by vividness, liveliness, joyful spirit and love for life, by spiritual, cultural superiority of a nation bound to mother earth (peaceful and gradual integration)
3) by force of the official state (soft version of genocide -what Turkey did -), assimilation genocide can be cultural as well beside being physical. (the same thing that happened to the Slavs of Greece). The same that now happens in Kosovo.
4) by simply settling in empty areas.

Problem with all 2,3,4, is that they assume some kind of "greatness" of the Slavs or the complete absence of serious rivals, and that is not accepted in the "international" community of historians. Heck even your attempt to use the theory of assimilation above, indirectly assumes some sort of structured state or other official power. Something which contradicts the official history which wants only some slavic official structres only after 800+ AD.

Obviously Alinei's opponents axiomatically excluded 2), 3), 4) (hey, remember Slavs are supposed to be inferior, small and distant right?) thus giving ground to Alinei to use the remaining 1) and apply the method of proof by contradiction. (if your pathetic albanian ass does not understand some of the terms, then google them).

Thus, your comment is worth nothing, just like your whole pathetic presence here.

[epirot]

long and short of it.

Why todays Greeks are more than fast and eager to drop their language for the sake of mimicking like monkeys USA/UK pop stars/singers/etc?? BUT the same does not happen e.g. in Bulgaria/Croatia/Czech which are also in the same NATO sphere.... I mean in Athens you can hear greeks speaking english among one another, something inconceivable in Sofia, Zagreb, Belgrade. And of course that has nothing to do with how many years we've been under NATO.

Another example : Why albanians are SO fast to learn the greek tang in Greece, change their names, become orthodox, and even join extreme far-right nazi parties ??????? WHILE SLAVS QUITE THE OPPOSITE??

Same situation happened during latin times. The weak latinized, the strong NOT.

And again, i have strong indications that non-slavs in the balkans came after the slavs, as is witnessed by the various toponyms. Those supposed "indigenous" latin-greko-albo-speakers (which are all the same race actually), most probably came from Asia, middle/near east, i know of Karamanlides, who were Latin speakers, Vlahs (Sarakatsans kind of thing) of Asia Minor.

It is possible that the roman emperors started relocating big numbers of non-slavs at around 10th century AD and forward. And later making them into Greeks/Albs/Romans, whatever they seemed fit for the occasion.

So the fact that a population spoke Latin or Greek, HAD NO CONNECTION WITH THE geographical origin of the said population, or any kind of national sense. Arabs of the christian religion used extensively Greek, while those engaging in public administration and commerce spoke Latin. An example i shown, but this incompetent piece of crap "Petros" failed to address is the presence of the ROMA population, a people with clear indian phenotype, latin speaking language, which is blatantly obvious that they are also a very late addition to the balkans (otherwise they would be completely de-latinized by now).

So the sphere of the Latins (or any greeks leftovers) might be MUCH stronger in Asia/Africa, than in balkans... and the fact that a people speaks latin, might be an indication of NON-BALKAN origin.

[epirot]

Petros, l would like you to have a read of the following:

Liburnia in ancient times (11th to 1st century BC) was the alleged land of the Liburnians, a region along the northeastern Adriatic coast. Of course, there is no serious scientist in the world who would be able to explain did the Liburnian exist or not as a tribal name in Balkan. The fact is that we today have the toponyms in the Balkan which confirm that Liburnia's name was present along the whole Adriatic coast as well as it was present in the far interior of the Balkan Peninsula.

The name Labrani (or Liburni) was not limited to the Balkan area and here we can adduce the name of the city Livorno, situated on the Tyrrhenian Sea on the western edge of Tuscany, Italy. The cenral point of the supposed Liburnian land was the town Lovran (Italian Laurana) - located on the eastern coast of Istria, in the Bay of Kvarner. It would be interesting to mention another town, this time in the northern part of Serbia, close to the Romanian border, with the name Alibunar.

According to the local legend, Alibunar was named after Ali-paša (Ali-pasha), who had a cattle and a well at this place (Kruševo monument 1713). Nevertheless, the Serbian word 'bunar' has been derived from the older word 'oblivanje' (suffuse), over 'livanje' and 'livarenje' (pooring in; Leva Reka = Left River; Serbian surname Ljevar, Levar); i.e. from LIBANJE and LIBARENJE1 - liburn => buran /Serb. bure, burence burrel/ => bunar (well, Ger. Brunnen); hence the French 'lavoir' (wash basin, Serb. lavor), Latin 'labrum' (lip, edge, basin).

At this place, it is necessary to explain where (and how) the Latin words 'labrum' and 'labium' appeared form. We shall see that there is an unusual inter-relation among the Latin 'labium' (lip), German 'Liebe'2, English 'love' and the Serbian verb 'ljubiti' (kiss), 'ljubav' (love). They are very close to each other not only phonetically but also semantically and logically. There is a litlle chance to understand the history of the words 'love' and 'lip' (labium, Serb. ljubim = I love) if the one of the Slavic languages (the Serbian is the best because of its "shepherd" structure) is not taken in serious consideration.

Namely, in order to comprehend this "fervent love-affair" we must go back to the primordial flash of the flaming sun and to the coast of the eternal River, which waves passionately suffuse (Serb. oblivati, oblivanje; obliva) the both River's coasts. The Latin 'libatio' is the word coming from the same source as the Serbian 'livati / levati' (to pour... beverage etc.). The hand that holds the empty glass that nedeed to be filled up (Serb. liti, levati), has been named 'left' (Serb. leva).

When the boy kisses the girl he suffuses (Serb. obliva) the both girl's lips in the same way as the river suffuses the both of its coasts (Serb. obala). It is the reason why the Serbian verbs 'oblivati (suffuse, splash)' and 'obljubiti' (kiss, intercourse) have te same reduplicated BEL form (sun god BEL, Serbian OBLO round as the sun, OBALA coast; the round form of the riverbank; sloping land - especially the slope beside a body of water).

Now, when we have resolved our "no LOVE LEFT" problem we are ready to visit the river Lab (in the south of Serbia), according to wich some ancient tribe named themselves LABANI3 (Labeati on the territory of today’s Republic of Monte Negro, from Skadar to Podgorica). As we can see from the above explnation, Lab is a clear-cut Serbian name of river and it means 'oblivati' (suffuse), 'livati' (pour), 'ljubiti' (kiss), 'plaviti' (flood) and 'obljuba' (water-coast intercourse). Additionally, there is the river with the same name as the Serbian LAB in the north of Germany, the Slavic LABA (German Elbe; the same metathesis as LABANI => ALBANI). Is there anything else we would have needed as a final proof that so-called Illyrian language never existed? The same is with the Albanian nation (Sqiptar), which adopted the Roman calque of the Serbian regional name Labani.

At the end, let us be reminded of the Serbian/Slavic personal names like Lovro, Lovrenović, Lavrnić, Lubarda, Ljubović, Ljubo, Ljuban, Labus, Labud and the place names Ljubovo, Lapovo, LJUBLJANA, LIPLJAN (the town in Kosovo, Serbia; the same BEL-BEL basis as Ljubljana; Serb. ljubljenje kissing; OBLJUBITI => POLJUBITI => LJUBLJENJE kissing). LJIPLJAN4 is the one of the numberless evidences that the Serbian toponymic names in Balkan were distorted by Romans – Ulpiana is a deformed name of the Serbian Lipljan).

1Labranda, a town of Caria, 8 m. from Mylasa. Famous for a temple of Jupiter Labrandenus or Labradeus (" with the hatchet"). Built by Labrandus the Curet. Labris, a town of Arabia Felix, Yemen, S.E., between Gerra and Inapha. El Labrin. Libarna (Libarnum), a town of the Statielli, Liguria, between Caristum and Genua. Lavezzara. Leborini campi, a district of the Phlegraei campi, bet. Cumae and Puteoli. Hence was derived the modern name of Campania. Terra di Lavoro.

2 Liba, I. a town of Cyrenaica, w. above Crocodilum prom. II. of Mygdonia, Mesopotamia, s.e. of Nisibis (Nisibia, Nisibin, modern Nusaybin, Mardin Province, south-eastern Turkey; river Nišava and Niš, town in Serbia). Libana (Labbana), a town of Arabene, Mesopotamia, on the Tigris, between Betuma and Mespyla. Mosul. Labona fl., a r. of Liguria, falling into Ligusticus sin. at Ad Navalia; Labona, village in Lebanon. Mount Labus of Hyrcania, towards Zadra-carta the capital of Hyrcania, north-central, Iran (Astarabad); Labus, town north of Koszalin, Poland. Labuta m., a N.E. continuation of Caspius mountain, separating Hyrcania from Parthia.

3 Lebena, a town on the s. coast of Crete, E. of Leon prom., the E. port of Gortys. Mitropoli. Labeatis palus, a lake of the Labeates, Iliyria, on the borders of the Dalmatia, formed by Barbana fl. Lago di Scutari, todays river Boyana; compare the Serbian words 'borba' (fight, struggle) and 'boy' (fight); in addition, there is the village Barban in Istria, 28 km northeast of Pula, above the Raša river valley. Toponyms in Serbia, river Lab, town and river Raška, river Boyana (ancient Barbana), towns Lebane, Lipljan; toponyms in Istria, town Labin, river Raša, village Barban, Ljubljana in Slovenia; Skadar (Skutari, Shkodra) in Albania and Skradin (Lat. Scardona) in Dalmatia; Serbian surname Škundrić, Škondrić (from Alexander the Great).

4 Libici, a tribe of Salyes, GalliaTranspadana, on Padus fl., w. of the Levi, bet. Novaria fl. and Duria Maj. fl. About Vercellae (Serbian surnames Brklja, Brekalo, Brecalo; Prekale village in Kosovo). Lübeck, the second largest city in Schleswig-Holstein, in northern Germany; from the Serbian Ljubić, Ljubica, ljubak (lovely), Serbian surname Ljubek and name Ljupko. Lublin is the biggest city in eastern Poland and the capital of Lublin Voivodeship. Lublin is the same name as the Serbian Lipljan (in Kosovo) and Slovenian Ljubljana. There is no a single place name in Kosovo which is not of the Serbian origin.

Sir my hat goes off to you.

[Skerdilaid]

Literacy has nothing to do with languages you illiterate piece of albanian cunt. Even the homeric poems were known to be sang 100s of years before they were written down. As again said, read some Mario Alinei, to boost up your under performing albanian sight.

Gde je moj Lloza majku ti;)

[Novi Pazar]

Sir my hat goes off to you.

:)

[Petros Houhoulis]

i have proved that Latin speech (and non-slavic in general) in south balkans WAS A RECENT DEVELOPMENT. (Vlahs in metsovo being a blatant example). Latins speakers REPLACED the slavs. So the pattern is : (ancient) Slavs go, modern unbranded greko-alb-vlahs come in. The pattern is still alive today in Kosovo. What happens today is the same with what happened in (by today's geo term) Greece/Albania 1000+ years ago.

What recent phenomenon? Romans have been gone several centuries ago and their Latin speech has been replaced by Italian. How would it be possible for both Romanians and Vlachs to create entire languages out of nothing? Just because the Romanians purged their language of Slavic elements does not mean that their core language was not Latin in the first place bozohead...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Literacy has nothing to do with languages you illiterate piece of albanian cunt. Even the homeric poems were known to be sang 100s of years before they were written down. As again said, read some Mario Alinei, to boost up your under performing albanian sight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Alinei


Mario Alinei (born 1926, Turin) is Professor Emeritus at the University of Utrecht, where he taught from 1959 to 1987, currently living in Impruneta, Italy. He is founder and editor of Quaderni di semantica, a journal of theoretical and applied semantics. Until recently, he was president of Atlas Linguarum Europae at UNESCO.

Alinei has authored hundreds of publications and is a well known scholar in the field of dialectology. He is also the main proponent of the Paleolithic Continuity Theory, which contends that the Indo-European languages originated in Europe and have existed there since the Paleolithic.

Some of his main linguistical contributions, which were instrumental in creating the Paleolithic Continuity Theory, regarded tendencies towards the conservation of languages, as opposed to the theories of "biological laws" of linguistic change and the method of lexical self-dating.

Alinei was a pioneer in the use of computers in linguistics. According to Pavle Ivić "Alinei is one of the not so numerous European linguists who already in the early sixties were willing and able to apply the results of technological innovations to the study of language."

In other words Alinei is talking bullshit. We know very well that languages evolve, from multiple paradigms (Ancient Greek to Greek, Latin to Italian, Sanskrit to plenty of Indian languages and so on)

Beyond that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory


The Paleolithic Continuity Theory (or PCT, Italian La teoria della continuità), since 2010 relabelled as the Paleolithic Continuity Paradigm (or PCP), is a hypothesis suggesting that the Proto-Indo-European language (PIE) can be traced back to the Upper Paleolithic, several millennia earlier than the Chalcolithic or at the most Neolithic estimates in other scenarios of Proto-Indo-European origins. Its main proponent is Mario Alinei, who advanced the theory in his Origini delle Lingue d’Europa, published in two volumes in 1996 and 2000.[1]

The PCT posits that the advent of Indo-European languages should be linked to the arrival of Homo sapiens in Europe and Asia from Africa in the Upper Paleolithic.[2] Employing "lexical periodization", Alinei arrives at a timeline deeper than even that of Colin Renfrew's Anatolian hypothesis.[3]

Since 2004, an informal workgroup of scholars who support the Paleolithic Continuity Theory has been held online.[4] Apart from Alinei himself, its leading members (referred to as "Scientific Committee" in the website) are linguists Xaviero Ballester (University of Valencia) and Francesco Benozzo (University of Bologna). Also included are prehistorian Marcel Otte (Université de Liège) and anthropologist Henry Harpending (University of Utah).[2]

The Paleolithic Continuity Theory is distinctly a minority view as it enjoys very little academic support, serious discussion being limited to a small circle of scholars. It is not listed by Mallory among the proposals for the origins of the Indo-European languages that are widely discussed and considered credible within academia.[5]

Apart for 5 people, no other academic takes it seriously...

The existing hypotheses are (in order of credibility, more or less):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_Urheimat_hypotheses



the 4th millennium BCE (excluding the Anatolian branch) in Armenia, according to the Armenian hypothesis (proposed in the context of Glottalic theory);
the 4th or 5th millennium BCE to the east of the Caspian Sea, in the area of ancient Bactria-Sogdiana, according to Johanna Nichols' Sogdiana hypothesis;[2][3]
the 5th millennium BCE (4th excluding the Anatolian branch) in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, according to the Kurgan hypothesis;
the 6th millennium BCE or later in Northern Europe, according to Lothar Kilian's and, especially, Marek Zvelebil's[4] models of a broader homeland;
the 6th millennium BCE in India, according to Koenraad Elst's Out of India model[5]
the 7th millennium BCE in Anatolia (the 5th, in the Balkans, excluding the Anatolian branch), according to Colin Renfrew's Anatolian hypothesis;
the 7th millennium BCE in Anatolia (6th excluding the Anatolian branch), according to Bayesian analysis studies;[6][7]
before the 10th millennium BCE, in the Paleolithic Continuity Theory.
20,000 BCE-10,800 in the Mesolithic[8]


Alineis' hypothesis is the second from the bottom... Guess why.

[Petros Houhoulis]

No idiotic piece of albanian excrement, there are more ways actually, and Alinei makes implicit use of them :
1) genocide - the one practiced generally by your west-imperial-boot-licking albanian kind
2) by vividness, liveliness, joyful spirit and love for life, by spiritual, cultural superiority of a nation bound to mother earth (peaceful and gradual integration)
3) by force of the official state (soft version of genocide -what Turkey did -), assimilation genocide can be cultural as well beside being physical. (the same thing that happened to the Slavs of Greece). The same that now happens in Kosovo.
4) by simply settling in empty areas.

Problem with all 2,3,4, is that they assume some kind of "greatness" of the Slavs or the complete absence of serious rivals, and that is not accepted in the "international" community of historians. Heck even your attempt to use the theory of assimilation above, indirectly assumes some sort of structured state or other official power. Something which contradicts the official history which wants only some slavic official structres only after 800+ AD.

Obviously Alinei's opponents axiomatically excluded 2), 3), 4) (hey, remember Slavs are supposed to be inferior, small and distant right?) thus giving ground to Alinei to use the remaining 1) and apply the method of proof by contradiction. (if your pathetic albanian ass does not understand some of the terms, then google them).

Thus, your comment is worth nothing, just like your whole pathetic presence here.

Well, there are several documents proving that the Slavs invaded the Balkans and caused genocides:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/mango.asp


Crossing the Adriatic, our traveller may have disembarked at Dyrrachium and followed the Via Egnatia all the way back to Constantinople. The regions he would have to traverse were then about as desolate as Italy. To quote Procopius once again,

"Illyricum and all of Thrace, i.e. the whole country from the Ionian Gulf [the Adriatic to the outskirts of Byzantium, including Greece and the Chersonese, was overrun almost every year by Huns, Slavs and Antae, from the time when Justinian became Roman emperor, and they wrought untold damage among the inhabitants of those parts. For I believe that in each invasion more than two hundred thousand Romans were killed or captured, so that a veritable 'Scythian wilderness' came to exist everywhere in this land."


It would be wearisome to describe here all the ethnographic changes that the Empire witnessed after the sixth century, but we must say a few words about the greatest mutation of all, which started happening a few decades after Justinian's death. Its first sign was the massive installation of the Slavs in the Balkan peninsula. The Slavs came in several waves and, unlike earlier invaders, they came to stay. In an oft-quoted passage John of Amida (also known asJohn of Ephesus) records that in 581

"an accursed people, called Slaonians, overran the whole of Greece, and the country of the Thessalonians, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own.... And even to this day [584 AD], they stili encamp and dwell there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn."

Another source, the so-called Chronicle of Monembasia, states that in the year 587-8 the Turkic Avars (with whom the Slavs were usually allied)

"captured all of Thessaly and all of Greece, Old Epirus, Attica and Euboea. Indeed, they attacked the Peloponnese and took it by war; and after expelling and destroying the native Hellenic peoples, they dwelt there. Those who were able to escape their murderous hands were scattered here and there. Thus, the citizens of Patras moved to the district of Reggio in Calabria, the Argives to the island called Orobe, the Corinthians to the island of Aegina.... Only the eastern part of the Peloponnese, from Corinth to Cape Maleas, was untouched by the Slavonians because of the rough and inaccessible nature of the country."

Archaeological evidence proves that too:

http://www.academia.edu/357647/The_Barbarian_Incursions_on_Macedonia_in_the_Early _Middle_Ages_Defining_Chronology_Geography_and_Fac tors

Check page 8, just below the middle of the page you can see your ancestors' achievments: The destruction of Heraclea Lyncestis, Bargala, Stobi, and whatever stood at the location of Ancient Styberra - Jelena refers to it as "near Prilep".

[Petros Houhoulis]

long and short of it.

Why todays Greeks are more than fast and eager to drop their language for the sake of mimicking like monkeys USA/UK pop stars/singers/etc?? BUT the same does not happen e.g. in Bulgaria/Croatia/Czech which are also in the same NATO sphere.... I mean in Athens you can hear greeks speaking english among one another, something inconceivable in Sofia, Zagreb, Belgrade. And of course that has nothing to do with how many years we've been under NATO.

Another example : Why albanians are SO fast to learn the greek tang in Greece, change their names, become orthodox, and even join extreme far-right nazi parties ??????? WHILE SLAVS QUITE THE OPPOSITE??

Same situation happened during latin times. The weak latinized, the strong NOT.

And again, i have strong indications that non-slavs in the balkans came after the slavs, as is witnessed by the various toponyms. Those supposed "indigenous" latin-greko-albo-speakers (which are all the same race actually), most probably came from Asia, middle/near east, i know of Karamanlides, who were Latin speakers, Vlahs (Sarakatsans kind of thing) of Asia Minor.

It is possible that the roman emperors started relocating big numbers of non-slavs at around 10th century AD and forward. And later making them into Greeks/Albs/Romans, whatever they seemed fit for the occasion.

So the fact that a population spoke Latin or Greek, HAD NO CONNECTION WITH THE geographical origin of the said population, or any kind of national sense. Arabs of the christian religion used extensively Greek, while those engaging in public administration and commerce spoke Latin. An example i shown, but this incompetent piece of crap "Petros" failed to address is the presence of the ROMA population, a people with clear indian phenotype, latin speaking language, which is blatantly obvious that they are also a very late addition to the balkans (otherwise they would be completely de-latinized by now).

So the sphere of the Latins (or any greeks leftovers) might be MUCH stronger in Asia/Africa, than in balkans... and the fact that a people speaks latin, might be an indication of NON-BALKAN origin.

Apart from your various crazy theories which I won't even bother to deal with, I have to correct you one more: The "Roma" Gypsies do NOT speak a Latin language you buffoon, but an INDIAN language with many Greek and other loanwords:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_language#Classification


Romani is an Indo-Aryan language with strong Balkan, and especially Greek, influence.[6]

Romani is sometimes classified in the Central or Northwestern branch of Indo-Aryan, and sometimes treated as a group of its own.

Romani shares a number of features with the Central Indo-Aryan languages.[7] The most significant isoglosses are the shift of Old Indo-Aryan r̥ to u or i (Sanskrit śr̥ṇ-, Romani šun- 'to hear') and kṣ- to kh (Sanskrit akṣi, Romani j-akh 'eye').[7] However, unlike other Central Indo-Aryan languages, Romani preserves many dental clusters (Romani trin 'three', phral 'brother', cf. Hindi tīn, bhāi).[7] This implies Romani split from the Central Indo-Aryan languages before the Middle Indo-Aryan period.[7] However, Romani shows some features of New Indo-Aryan, such as erosion of the original nominal case system towards a nominative/oblique dichotomy, with new grammaticalized case suffixes added on.[7] This means that the Romani exodus from India could not have happened until late in the first millennium CE.[7]

Romani also shows some similarity to the Northwest Indo-Aryan languages.[7] In particular, the grammaticalization of enclitic pronouns as person markers on verbs (kerdo 'done' + me 'me' > kerdjom 'I did') is also found in languages such as Kashmiri and Shina.[7] This evidences a northwest migration during the split from Central Indo-Aryan, consistent with a later migration to Europe.[7]

Based on this data, Matras (2006) views Romani as "kind of Indian hybrid: a central Indic dialect that had undergone partial convergence with northern Indic languages."[7]

Got it bozohead?

[Novi Pazar]

The homogeneity of the Slavic languages

Unquestionably, the homogeneity of the Slavic languages, which contrasts so strikingly
with the internal differentiation of Germanic, Romance and Celtic, for example, can
only be explained in two ways: by positing: (A) a very high degree of cultural and
social stability for a very long period, or (B); a most rapid expansion of the Slavs, the
tempo of which would have prevented the original Slavic language (Proto-Slavic) from
changing in the new areas. Something like what happened, for instance, to the English
language of the Pilgrims when they migrated to America, for its rapid expansion into
the new continent produced much fewer dialectal differences – despite its enormous
area – than, say, British English shows in the island of England.
The traditional theory was indeed coherent with this approach, when it assumed
the ‘arrival’ of the Slavs in historical times, following their ‘great migration’. This
scenario did indeed involve a sort of blitz-invasion of most Eastern Europe, which in
turn would explain the homogeneity of the Slavic languages as they are now. Rather than being stable, the two
millennia of the Bronze, Iron Age and the beginning of our era form – on the contrary –
one of the most turbulent periods of European prehistory, protohistory and history:
Celts, Greeks, Romans, Illyrians and other people (including Slavs themselves, if we
accept this theory!), were constantly on the war path, occupying other people’s
territories, and greatly influencing their languages and cultures, as the numerous Celtic,
Greek and Latin loanwords in the Slavic languages abundantly witness.

[Novi Pazar]

The demographic explosion of the Slavs, preceding their great
migration

Neither version of the traditional theory can provide a satisfactory answer to the twofold
question underlying the hypothesis of the great Slavic migration in the Early Middle
Ages: What prehistorical or historical circumstances would have brought the Slavic
people first to their demographic explosion and then to their great migration, both of which made them into the dominating population of Eastern Europe, from North to
South, and the most numerous group in Europe? Neither archaeology nor history gives
us the slightest piece of evidence for such events which, as we have already noticed,
would have caused nothing less than the almost total disappearance of the previous
populations and of their languages. Notice that we followed the traditional theory we
wold have to assume not only that the Proto-IE people would “arrive” with the kurgan
culture from the Ukrainian steppes, in the Copper Age, while the Slavs would “arrive”
in Central Eastern Europe in the Bronze Age; but also, and especially, that after their
arrival they would multiply like ants, and would then occupy almost the whole of
Eastern Europe, from the arctic area and the tundra to the shores of the Black Sea. Can
such a preposterous thesis be in all seriousness advanced, in the 21st century, with the
progress made in so many scientific fields such as archaeology, anthropology, general
linguistics, and without a single piece of evidence? If we then also recall that the core
area of the Slavs was the South and not the North – as the geolinguistic picture
irrefutably indicates – what remains of this construction?

[Novi Pazar]

"an accursed people, called Slaonians, overran the whole of Greece, and the country of the Thessalonians, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own.... And even to this day [584 AD], they stili encamp and dwell there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn."

If you look back a couple of pages Petros, you will see a post explaining about bishop John of Constantinople message that one could conclude the following:

"When, for example, John of Ephesos, bishop of Constantinopolis under Justinian
(527-65) mentions the innumerable raids into the Byzantine territory by “the damned
people of the Slavs” he damns them because they were still pagan, and not because they
are ‘arriving’!

[Scholarios]

"an accursed people, called Slaonians, overran the whole of Greece, and the country of the Thessalonians, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own.... And even to this day [584 AD], they stili encamp and dwell there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn."

If you look back a couple of pages Petros, you will see a post explaining about bishop John of Constantinople message that one could conclude the following:

"When, for example, John of Ephesos, bishop of Constantinopolis under Justinian
(527-65) mentions the innumerable raids into the Byzantine territory by “the damned
people of the Slavs” he damns them because they were still pagan, and not because they
are ‘arriving’!

Novi, but that observation is neither here nor there. It is presumed that all pagan peoples were damned (including Hellenes). The part that needs explanation is that at a certain point of time, these accursed Slavnonians overan the whole of Greece- implying that at one time they hadn't been there (in order to overrun it)

[Novi Pazar]

Now Petros, IF, Byzantine Emperors Justin and Justinian are Slavs, then the whole myth of Slavic Migration flies out the window:

JUSTINIAN I. (Roman emperor, Aug. 1, 527 - Nov. 14, 565), b. at Tauresium in Illrium, May 11, 483; was a Slav by descent; his original name was Uprauda. The good fortunes of his uncle, Justin I., - a Dacian peasant who served in the Imperial Guard, owed his advancement to the size of his body and the strength of his limbs, and in 518 saw fit to snatch the imperial crown, brought him early to Constantinople. He received an excellent education; and, though he never learned to speak Greek without a foreign accent, he was well prepared when he succeeded to the throne.

http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/justinian.php

"Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Justinian was born in the year 483 to Slavic parents in a country along the eastern Adriatic coast. Little is known of his early years except that as a youth he was adopted by his uncle, Emperor Justin I, and was educated in Constantinople. In 527 Justin made him coruler of the empire. When his uncle died a few months later, Justinian became the sole emperor"

http://www.bookrags.com/research/justinian-i-scit-011234/

Constantin Jirecek:

"We also know that the Emperor Justin I (518-27) and his nephew Justinian I (527-65) were of Slavic origin. At a later date, THERE WERE EVEN SLAVS AMONG THE PATRIARCHS OF BYZANTIUM. Their numbers were considerable in Justinian's army. Among Justinian's commanders we find mention of DOBROGOST, SVEGRD and SVARUN, who in 555 distinguished themselves in the war against the Persians."

- Constantin Jos. Jirecek, Geschichte der Bulgaren Prague, 1876, p.79.

[Novi Pazar]

Novi, but that observation is neither here nor there. It is presumed that all pagan peoples were damned (including Hellenes). The part that needs explanation is that at a certain point of time, these accursed Slavnonians overan the whole of Greece- implying that at one time they hadn't been there (in order to overrun it)

Scholarios, that is fine, it tells us THEY overran Hellas, it doesn't tell the story of the great Migration INTO the Balkans, right?

Scholarios, l used to blindly believe the migration theory, but something is not right!

[Novi Pazar]

Look how the name 'Liburnium is explained via Slavic or Serbian Slavic:

Liburnia in ancient times (11th to 1st century BC) was the alleged land of the Liburnians, a region along the northeastern Adriatic coast. Of course, there is no serious scientist in the world who would be able to explain did the Liburnian exist or not as a tribal name in Balkan. The fact is that we today have the toponyms in the Balkan which confirm that Liburnia's name was present along the whole Adriatic coast as well as it was present in the far interior of the Balkan Peninsula.

The name Labrani (or Liburni) was not limited to the Balkan area and here we can adduce the name of the city Livorno, situated on the Tyrrhenian Sea on the western edge of Tuscany, Italy. The cenral point of the supposed Liburnian land was the town Lovran (Italian Laurana) - located on the eastern coast of Istria, in the Bay of Kvarner. It would be interesting to mention another town, this time in the northern part of Serbia, close to the Romanian border, with the name Alibunar.

According to the local legend, Alibunar was named after Ali-paša (Ali-pasha), who had a cattle and a well at this place (Kruševo monument 1713). Nevertheless, the Serbian word 'bunar' has been derived from the older word 'oblivanje' (suffuse), over 'livanje' and 'livarenje' (pooring in; Leva Reka = Left River; Serbian surname Ljevar, Levar); i.e. from LIBANJE and LIBARENJE1 - liburn => buran /Serb. bure, burence burrel/ => bunar (well, Ger. Brunnen); hence the French 'lavoir' (wash basin, Serb. lavor), Latin 'labrum' (lip, edge, basin).

At this place, it is necessary to explain where (and how) the Latin words 'labrum' and 'labium' appeared form. We shall see that there is an unusual inter-relation among the Latin 'labium' (lip), German 'Liebe'2, English 'love' and the Serbian verb 'ljubiti' (kiss), 'ljubav' (love). They are very close to each other not only phonetically but also semantically and logically. There is a litlle chance to understand the history of the words 'love' and 'lip' (labium, Serb. ljubim = I love) if the one of the Slavic languages (the Serbian is the best because of its "shepherd" structure) is not taken in serious consideration.

Namely, in order to comprehend this "fervent love-affair" we must go back to the primordial flash of the flaming sun and to the coast of the eternal River, which waves passionately suffuse (Serb. oblivati, oblivanje; obliva) the both River's coasts. The Latin 'libatio' is the word coming from the same source as the Serbian 'livati / levati' (to pour... beverage etc.). The hand that holds the empty glass that nedeed to be filled up (Serb. liti, levati), has been named 'left' (Serb. leva).

When the boy kisses the girl he suffuses (Serb. obliva) the both girl's lips in the same way as the river suffuses the both of its coasts (Serb. obala). It is the reason why the Serbian verbs 'oblivati (suffuse, splash)' and 'obljubiti' (kiss, intercourse) have te same reduplicated BEL form (sun god BEL, Serbian OBLO round as the sun, OBALA coast; the round form of the riverbank; sloping land - especially the slope beside a body of water).

Now, when we have resolved our "no LOVE LEFT" problem we are ready to visit the river Lab (in the south of Serbia), according to wich some ancient tribe named themselves LABANI3 (Labeati on the territory of today’s Republic of Monte Negro, from Skadar to Podgorica). As we can see from the above explnation, Lab is a clear-cut Serbian name of river and it means 'oblivati' (suffuse), 'livati' (pour), 'ljubiti' (kiss), 'plaviti' (flood) and 'obljuba' (water-coast intercourse). Additionally, there is the river with the same name as the Serbian LAB in the north of Germany, the Slavic LABA (German Elbe; the same metathesis as LABANI => ALBANI). Is there anything else we would have needed as a final proof that so-called Illyrian language never existed? The same is with the Albanian nation (Sqiptar), which adopted the Roman calque of the Serbian regional name Labani.

At the end, let us be reminded of the Serbian/Slavic personal names like Lovro, Lovrenović, Lavrnić, Lubarda, Ljubović, Ljubo, Ljuban, Labus, Labud and the place names Ljubovo, Lapovo, LJUBLJANA, LIPLJAN (the town in Kosovo, Serbia; the same BEL-BEL basis as Ljubljana; Serb. ljubljenje kissing; OBLJUBITI => POLJUBITI => LJUBLJENJE kissing). LJIPLJAN4 is the one of the numberless evidences that the Serbian toponymic names in Balkan were distorted by Romans – Ulpiana is a deformed name of the Serbian Lipljan).

1Labranda, a town of Caria, 8 m. from Mylasa. Famous for a temple of Jupiter Labrandenus or Labradeus (" with the hatchet"). Built by Labrandus the Curet. Labris, a town of Arabia Felix, Yemen, S.E., between Gerra and Inapha. El Labrin. Libarna (Libarnum), a town of the Statielli, Liguria, between Caristum and Genua. Lavezzara. Leborini campi, a district of the Phlegraei campi, bet. Cumae and Puteoli. Hence was derived the modern name of Campania. Terra di Lavoro.

2 Liba, I. a town of Cyrenaica, w. above Crocodilum prom. II. of Mygdonia, Mesopotamia, s.e. of Nisibis (Nisibia, Nisibin, modern Nusaybin, Mardin Province, south-eastern Turkey; river Nišava and Niš, town in Serbia). Libana (Labbana), a town of Arabene, Mesopotamia, on the Tigris, between Betuma and Mespyla. Mosul. Labona fl., a r. of Liguria, falling into Ligusticus sin. at Ad Navalia; Labona, village in Lebanon. Mount Labus of Hyrcania, towards Zadra-carta the capital of Hyrcania, north-central, Iran (Astarabad); Labus, town north of Koszalin, Poland. Labuta m., a N.E. continuation of Caspius mountain, separating Hyrcania from Parthia.

3 Lebena, a town on the s. coast of Crete, E. of Leon prom., the E. port of Gortys. Mitropoli. Labeatis palus, a lake of the Labeates, Iliyria, on the borders of the Dalmatia, formed by Barbana fl. Lago di Scutari, todays river Boyana; compare the Serbian words 'borba' (fight, struggle) and 'boy' (fight); in addition, there is the village Barban in Istria, 28 km northeast of Pula, above the Raša river valley. Toponyms in Serbia, river Lab, town and river Raška, river Boyana (ancient Barbana), towns Lebane, Lipljan; toponyms in Istria, town Labin, river Raša, village Barban, Ljubljana in Slovenia; Skadar (Skutari, Shkodra) in Albania and Skradin (Lat. Scardona) in Dalmatia; Serbian surname Škundrić, Škondrić (from Alexander the Great).

4 Libici, a tribe of Salyes, GalliaTranspadana, on Padus fl., w. of the Levi, bet. Novaria fl. and Duria Maj. fl. About Vercellae (Serbian surnames Brklja, Brekalo, Brecalo; Prekale village in Kosovo). Lübeck, the second largest city in Schleswig-Holstein, in northern Germany; from the Serbian Ljubić, Ljubica, ljubak (lovely), Serbian surname Ljubek and name Ljupko. Lublin is the biggest city in eastern Poland and the capital of Lublin Voivodeship. Lublin is the same name as the Serbian Lipljan (in Kosovo) and Slovenian Ljubljana. There is no a single place name in Kosovo which is not of the Serbian origin.

[Petros Houhoulis]

"an accursed people, called Slaonians, overran the whole of Greece, and the country of the Thessalonians, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own.... And even to this day [584 AD], they stili encamp and dwell there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn."

If you look back a couple of pages Petros, you will see a post explaining about bishop John of Constantinople message that one could conclude the following:

"When, for example, John of Ephesos, bishop of Constantinopolis under Justinian
(527-65) mentions the innumerable raids into the Byzantine territory by “the damned
people of the Slavs” he damns them because they were still pagan, and not because they
are ‘arriving’!

Novi Pazar, do you suggest that Thrace and the country of the Thessalonians (the hinterlands of Thessaloniki) were inhabited by Slavs long before? Because the most of these areas are now within either Greece or Turkey... Furthermore you forget that other authors as well like Procopius mention genocides in very specific details and you have yet to comment upon the archaeologic findings of Jelena Jaric in the little fiefdom which lies between our countries...

[Novi Pazar]

^Petros, the picture l'm receiving is Slavs massacred people? Slavs overran regions and annihilated them, no signs of prior civilization was left behind, it almost mirrors some Albanian theory or even Romanian theories which paint the picture of native inhabitants MOVED up into the mountains for Slavs to TAKE-OVER, then, when the climate was right, move down and defeat the barbarians and adopting their hydronyms, toponyms etc...forgetting their older names for those towns etc....

What makes the migration theory 'weak', is no information regarding Slavs, as you say, massacring or wiping people off the face of the earth; no sign in central europe or in southern europe! Many of the names we come across were simply ROMANIZED, take the example of Liburnium above, Slavic logically explains the name/s, best.

[Novi Pazar]

Petros, my friend, l'll show you another example, take the name Rhodope:

Try 'Rhodope'. Explanation please.



The easiest answer to this question would be if we said that Rhodope is an "Illyrian topnym". Doesn't matter if we don't know what the notion "Illyrian" bears in itself.

In case of Rhodope another fiction language appeared to be "responsible" - Thracian. Some of the serious scientists believe that Rhodope is a compound word composed of rod + api (red + water); i.e. from an imaginary Thracian rudas red/reddish + apa water, river, stream. In Serbian it could be "calqued" as Rudo-potok (from Serbian rudan, rudeti, rujan reddish and potok brook, creek; cf. Bulgarian Rodo-pite/ Родопите. If Dospatska Reka had an earlier name Rodopite or Rudi Potok (red creek) and that name had been later extended for the mountain name, we could say that the history of the name of mountain Rhodopi is completely resolved.

The other possibilities is that the name Rhodopi/RODOPITE originated from the Bulgarian/Serbian word RODOVIT (fertile, fruitful, proliferous; Serb. rodovit, rodan; similar to the Kosovo toponyms Rodimlje /fruitfull/ and Nerodimlje /fruitless, barren/ that I have already discussed in this thred earlier).

Nevertheless, it doesn't matter which one of the etymologies we are going to accept because the name Rхodopе is of the clear Serbo-Slavic origin. The micro-region RADJEVINA in Western Serbia has a similar name to Rhodopи; one of the Rhodopian mountains in Serbia is called RADAN; there is a mountain RUJAN (across the Bulgaro-Serbian border); PN Rudo in Bosnia

Proximal classical Greek provides 'rhousizô' (reddish) and
'aporreô' (stream) as best matches.
Do you have any other closer corresponding roots?
Serb? Any Slavic?



Greek aporreô has the meaning "falling (of a river)" and it is a counterpart of the Serbian verb obrušiti se, obrušio "falling as water"; Serb. obo-rina (precipitation) borrowed by Albanians as a word for snow (borë); cf. Ibar river in Serbia known in Bulgaria as Obar; Greek prefix apa- means "from, away from" and it has nothing to do with "water".

And so I offer as the closest apparent source of 'ope' and your above
'api' ... 'upe' (river) which is Baltic.



Baltic upe comes from the adjective aplis (Serb. oblo round); hence Latvian peldеt (swim), similar to Serbian plutati, English float or ploviti (sail), but it is a long story (Serb. oblo /round/, obliti / suffuse/, oplivati, plivati /swim/, plutati /float/, oplo-viti (sail around); Serbian upliv (stream, influnce)... Maybe Europe is Ebr-ope or Latvian e-Bura-ope (electronic navigable river)? smile

(Baltic Latv. 'rud' = 'red'. synth. 'rudupe' means 'red river') If anyone has a closer pair, please let me know.



I am rather sceptic about "red river" etymology (Rom. raul rosu). I traveled a great part of Rhodope and I hadn't seen anything "reddish" as a Rhodopian specific characteristic. I see. you have consulted Duridanov's "Thracian etymology", where he (under influence of an ignoramus - a charlatan called Harwey Mayerdrunk) explains so-called Thracian/Dacian words with the help of Baltic languages.

No. It's not similar at all.



Do not be silly!
Radjevina <= Rodbina (relatives); radjati (procreate, bear, reproduce);
Rodbina => Rodovina;
Rodobito => Rodovito (fertile); Rodan (fruitful);
Radan => Rodan (fruitful);
Rujan (reddish); Serbian "rujno vino" (red wine);
Now I'll tell you a secret: Serb. "radjanje zore" (dawning; literally: the birth of a dawn; rudjenje appearing of a red color) connects both Serbian words - rujan, rudeti (red, reddish) and radjanje (procreation), because the dawn is usually reddish (a small ablaut in Serbian: rod (genus, kin, kind), radjati (bear, procreate), rudeti (getting red); cf. Latvian sarkans (red; directly from the Sur-Gon basis wherefrom Serb žarko (hot), sunce (sun) and zora (dawn) ; Latv. parādīties dawn (Serb. poroditi procreate); Latv. radit procreate (Serb. roditi).

I told you everything, but simply you are not intelligent enough to understand the relation among all those words I enumerated above. I have not heard a more ridiculous answer for a long time, "river is not round".
Who ever told you that river was round?

Throwing a slug of disjointed words at people does not solve the
problem of how Serbs named districts for Greeks 1000 years before they
even existed



For Heaven's sake, If you do not understand what I am talking about and if you are unable to see the clear-cut relation among the words I mentioned above not even God can help you. The name Rhodope has no meaning in Greek... didn't you know that? Greeks only noted that name in a way they heard it from the native people of the Thracian region (the Roman province of Thrace). The problem is we do not know exactly who that people was and what language they were speaking. What I am trying to say is (according to the Balkan geographical names) that a sort of Serbo- Slavic language had been spoken there for many millenniums, long before Christ's era.

[Petros Houhoulis]

^Petros, the picture l'm receiving is Slavs massacred people? Slavs overran regions and annihilated them, no signs of prior civilization was left behind, it almost mirrors some Albanian theory or even Romanian theories which paint the picture of native inhabitants MOVED up into the mountains for Slavs to TAKE-OVER, then, when the climate was right, move down and defeat the barbarians and adopting their hydronyms, toponyms etc...forgetting their older names for those towns etc....

What makes the migration theory 'weak', is no information regarding Slavs, as you say, massacring or wiping people off the face of the earth; no sign in central europe or in southern europe! Many of the names we come across were simply ROMANIZED, take the example of Liburnium above, Slavic logically explains the name/s, best.

There is no theory that "people took up the mountains" as far as I am concerned. The existing theory is that the Slavs conquered some areas and failed to conquer some others, frequently because the latter were mountainous (this is well attested in the Peloponessus for example, where the western half of it was conquered by Slavs, the eastern half remained free) but there is no case that I know where people simply withdrew to the mountains while the Slavs surrounded them in the valleys. The Romanians and the Vlachs and the Albanians managed to defend themselves and the Slavs ignored them and moved further south. That's all.

The Ancient inscriptions in Illyria are Illyrian or Liburnian or whatever. They are NOT Latin and they cannot be explained away as Latin (although they could be related to the Latin language) and therefore you cannot explain away the Liburnians as some sort of a result of the Roman conquest.

The massacres are well attested by Procopius:


"Illyricum and all of Thrace, i.e. the whole country from the Ionian Gulf [the Adriatic to the outskirts of Byzantium, including Greece and the Chersonese, was overrun almost every year by Huns, Slavs and Antae, from the time when Justinian became Roman emperor, and they wrought untold damage among the inhabitants of those parts. For I believe that in each invasion more than two hundred thousand Romans were killed or captured, so that a veritable 'Scythian wilderness' came to exist everywhere in this land."

Wherever there were historians, they detailed the massacres very well. In Central Europe where there was no civilization, and no historiography, and there are very few records. As for the Serbs themselves, there is a specific reference by historians that they were allowed to settle within the borders of the East Roman empire by Heraclius:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_history#Byzantine_era


Around the 7th century, Slavs appeared on the Byzantine borders in great numbers.[11] They were allowed to settle in the Byzantine Empire by its emperor Heraclius after their victory over the Avars.[12]

What more proof do you want to have that the Serbs did not live in Serbia before the Roman era?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Petros, my friend, l'll show you another example, take the name Rhodope:

Try 'Rhodope'. Explanation please.



The easiest answer to this question would be if we said that Rhodope is an "Illyrian topnym". Doesn't matter if we don't know what the notion "Illyrian" bears in itself.

In case of Rhodope another fiction language appeared to be "responsible" - Thracian. Some of the serious scientists believe that Rhodope is a compound word composed of rod + api (red + water); i.e. from an imaginary Thracian rudas red/reddish + apa water, river, stream. In Serbian it could be "calqued" as Rudo-potok (from Serbian rudan, rudeti, rujan reddish and potok brook, creek; cf. Bulgarian Rodo-pite/ Родопите. If Dospatska Reka had an earlier name Rodopite or Rudi Potok (red creek) and that name had been later extended for the mountain name, we could say that the history of the name of mountain Rhodopi is completely resolved.

The other possibilities is that the name Rhodopi/RODOPITE originated from the Bulgarian/Serbian word RODOVIT (fertile, fruitful, proliferous; Serb. rodovit, rodan; similar to the Kosovo toponyms Rodimlje /fruitfull/ and Nerodimlje /fruitless, barren/ that I have already discussed in this thred earlier).

Nevertheless, it doesn't matter which one of the etymologies we are going to accept because the name Rхodopе is of the clear Serbo-Slavic origin. The micro-region RADJEVINA in Western Serbia has a similar name to Rhodopи; one of the Rhodopian mountains in Serbia is called RADAN; there is a mountain RUJAN (across the Bulgaro-Serbian border); PN Rudo in Bosnia

Proximal classical Greek provides 'rhousizô' (reddish) and
'aporreô' (stream) as best matches.
Do you have any other closer corresponding roots?
Serb? Any Slavic?



Greek aporreô has the meaning "falling (of a river)" and it is a counterpart of the Serbian verb obrušiti se, obrušio "falling as water"; Serb. obo-rina (precipitation) borrowed by Albanians as a word for snow (borë); cf. Ibar river in Serbia known in Bulgaria as Obar; Greek prefix apa- means "from, away from" and it has nothing to do with "water".

And so I offer as the closest apparent source of 'ope' and your above
'api' ... 'upe' (river) which is Baltic.



Baltic upe comes from the adjective aplis (Serb. oblo round); hence Latvian peldеt (swim), similar to Serbian plutati, English float or ploviti (sail), but it is a long story (Serb. oblo /round/, obliti / suffuse/, oplivati, plivati /swim/, plutati /float/, oplo-viti (sail around); Serbian upliv (stream, influnce)... Maybe Europe is Ebr-ope or Latvian e-Bura-ope (electronic navigable river)? smile

(Baltic Latv. 'rud' = 'red'. synth. 'rudupe' means 'red river') If anyone has a closer pair, please let me know.



I am rather sceptic about "red river" etymology (Rom. raul rosu). I traveled a great part of Rhodope and I hadn't seen anything "reddish" as a Rhodopian specific characteristic. I see. you have consulted Duridanov's "Thracian etymology", where he (under influence of an ignoramus - a charlatan called Harwey Mayerdrunk) explains so-called Thracian/Dacian words with the help of Baltic languages.

No. It's not similar at all.



Do not be silly!
Radjevina <= Rodbina (relatives); radjati (procreate, bear, reproduce);
Rodbina => Rodovina;
Rodobito => Rodovito (fertile); Rodan (fruitful);
Radan => Rodan (fruitful);
Rujan (reddish); Serbian "rujno vino" (red wine);
Now I'll tell you a secret: Serb. "radjanje zore" (dawning; literally: the birth of a dawn; rudjenje appearing of a red color) connects both Serbian words - rujan, rudeti (red, reddish) and radjanje (procreation), because the dawn is usually reddish (a small ablaut in Serbian: rod (genus, kin, kind), radjati (bear, procreate), rudeti (getting red); cf. Latvian sarkans (red; directly from the Sur-Gon basis wherefrom Serb žarko (hot), sunce (sun) and zora (dawn) ; Latv. parādīties dawn (Serb. poroditi procreate); Latv. radit procreate (Serb. roditi).

I told you everything, but simply you are not intelligent enough to understand the relation among all those words I enumerated above. I have not heard a more ridiculous answer for a long time, "river is not round".
Who ever told you that river was round?

Throwing a slug of disjointed words at people does not solve the
problem of how Serbs named districts for Greeks 1000 years before they
even existed



For Heaven's sake, If you do not understand what I am talking about and if you are unable to see the clear-cut relation among the words I mentioned above not even God can help you. The name Rhodope has no meaning in Greek... didn't you know that? Greeks only noted that name in a way they heard it from the native people of the Thracian region (the Roman province of Thrace). The problem is we do not know exactly who that people was and what language they were speaking. What I am trying to say is (according to the Balkan geographical names) that a sort of Serbo- Slavic language had been spoken there for many millenniums, long before Christ's era.

Novi Pazar.

I am NOT a linguist, and I do not know ANY of the Slavic languages. If you have issues with the linguists, go speak to them. If you are not a linguist, they shall laugh at you. I am fully aware that the Thracians lived in many places inside Greece and that their language was (more or less) not Greek.

On the other hand there is evidence suggesting that the Serbs first arrived inside the borders of the Roman empire during the reign of Heraclius, as well as clear proof that all Slavic languages were formed in an area which could not possibly be inside the Balkans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Slavic_languages#Pre-Slavic


A pre-Slavic period began c. 1500 to 1000 BCE, whereby certain phonological changes and linguistic contacts did not disperse evenly through all Balto-Slavic dialects. The development into Proto-Slavic probably occurred along the southern periphery of the Proto-Balto-Slavic continuum. The most archaic Slavic hydronyms are found here, along the middle Dnieper, Pripet and upper Dniester rivers. This agrees well with the fact that inherited Common Slavic vocabulary does not include detailed terminology for physical surface features peculiar of the mountains or the steppe, nor any relating to the sea, to coastal features, littoral flora or fauna, or salt water fishes. On the other hand, it does include well-developed terminology for inland bodies of water (lakes, river, swamps) and kinds of forest (deciduous and coniferous), for the trees, plants, animals and birds indigenous to the temperate forest zone, and for the fish native to its waters.[7] Indeed, Trubachev argues that this location fostered contacts between speakers of Pre-Proto-Slavic with the cultural innovations which emanated from central Europe and the steppe.[8] Although language groups cannot be straightforwardly equated with archaeological cultures, the emergence of a Pre-Proto-Slavic linguistic community corresponds temporally and geographically with the Komarov and Chernoles cultures (Novotna, Blazek). Both linguists and archaeologists therefore often locate the Slavic Urheimat specifically within this area.

In proto-historical[further explanation needed] times, the Slavic homeland experienced intrusions of foreign elements. Beginning from c. 500 BCE to 200 CE, the Scythians and then the Sarmatians expanded their control into the forest steppe. A few Eastern Iranian loan words, especially relating to religious and cultural practices, have been seen as evidence of cultural influences.[9] Subsequently, loan words of Germanic origin also appear. This is connected to the movement of east Germanic groups into the Vistula basin, and subsequently to the middle Dnieper basin, associated with the appearance of the Przeworsk and Chernyakhov cultures, respectively.

Despite these developments, Slavic remained conservative and was still typologically very similar to other Balto-Slavic dialects.[10] Even into the Common Era, the various Balto-Slavic dialects formed a dialect continuum stretching from the Vistula to the Don and Oka basins, and from the Baltic and upper Volga to southern Russia and northern Ukraine.[11] Exactly when Slavs began to identify as a distinct ethno-cultural unit remains a subject of debate. For example, Kobylinski (2005) links the phenomenon to the Zarubinets culture 200 BCE to 200 CE,[12] Vlodymyr Baran places Slavic ethnogenesis within the Chernyakov era,[13] while Curta[14] places it in the Danube basin in the sixth century CE. It is likely that linguistic affinity played an important role in defining group identity for the Slavs.[15] The term Slav is proposed to be an autonym referring to "people who speak (the same language)."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Slavic_distribution_origin.png

[Skerdilaid]

Ok Sanxhaklija I will play a bit with you.

If Slavs were in Balkan as you claim a majority and never migrated, why the late conversion to Christianity?

[Novi Pazar]

Petros, your quote above states this:

"this agrees well with the fact that inherited Common Slavic vocabulary does not include detailed terminology for physical surface features peculiar of the mountains or the steppe, nor any relating to the sea, to coastal features, littoral flora or fauna, or salt water fishes."

This is from page 24 from this topic, replying to Epirot:

Brate, l was pondering Petros' quote for a moment because it mentions that Slavic lacked numerous descriptive maritime, mountainous or the steppe! It came to my mind about our INDO-EUROPEAN ANCESTORS? Theory has it our Indo-European Ancestors were FAR from SEA, and they too must have LACKED varieties of words to describe seafearing etc...

Food for thought:

In Serbian Slavic the word Sea is MORE, in Baltic its MARES, LATIN its MARE, GOTHIC its MAREI and Old IRISH its MUIR, whilst the original Indo-European its MORI. Apparently proto-indo european LACKED maritime terminology ALSO, MORI in Old Indo-European meant LAKE, not sea because where they originated from was in-land and far from sea. When they encountered sea they changed the meaning of MORI to represent SEA, OR, they borrowed words from CONQUERED & MIXED PEOPLES, i.e, Greek 'Thalassa'

Hence the old THRACIAN tribal name Moriseni (most likely warped due to latinization)

PS Could it be the descendants of Slavs/Balts WHO spread indo-european lang INTO Europe? Linguists consider BOTH Slavic and Baltic to be archaic indo-european langauges!

[epirot]

Novi bro, keep destroying the albanians... ain't got the time to neutralize each one of them "privately". Let me know of your progressions brother.

[wvwvw]

Epirot πως προέκυψες από οικονομικός μετανάστης βλαχογκρέκος; Βάλε σκέτο σλάβος να είσαι μέσα.

[epirot]

epirot πως προέκυψες από οικονομικός μετανάστης βλαχογκρέκος; Βάλε σκέτο σλάβος να είσαι μέσα.

σκασμός ποταπό γύναιο αραβικής προελέυσεως που θα μιλήσεις κιόλας. Btw, εδώ σε αυτό το φόρουμ μιλάμε ΣΛΑΒΙΚΑ. Αλβανικά/αραβικά δεν μιλάμε δυστυχώς για σένα.

ΧΑ ΧΑ ΧΑ όσο για το μετανάστης... απλά κλαίω απο τα γέλια...... στείλε μου ένα CV, ψάχνουμε οικιακή βοηθό..

[Novi Pazar]

Novi bro, keep destroying the albanians... ain't got the time to neutralize each one of them "privately". Let me know of your progressions brother.

Brate, they are alright, at least the moderators have done a great job in deleting stupid Shqiptarian posts which NEVER EVER HAVE SUBSTANCE!

[epirot]

Brate, they are alright, at least the moderators have done a great job in deleting stupid Shqiptarian posts which NEVER EVER HAVE SUBSTANCE!

great, next step to start deleting Petros and this Raine ar(a)banian trolls.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Epirot πως προέκυψες από οικονομικός μετανάστης βλαχογκρέκος; Βάλε σκέτο σλάβος να είσαι μέσα.

Well, he is a known pest who assumes a "Greek" identity. In fact he is one of the hillibillies from the north who is trying to confuse us. I have seen him and fought him in other forums as well...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Petros, your quote above states this:

"this agrees well with the fact that inherited Common Slavic vocabulary does not include detailed terminology for physical surface features peculiar of the mountains or the steppe, nor any relating to the sea, to coastal features, littoral flora or fauna, or salt water fishes."

This is from page 24 from this topic, replying to Epirot:

Brate, l was pondering Petros' quote for a moment because it mentions that Slavic lacked numerous descriptive maritime, mountainous or the steppe! It came to my mind about our INDO-EUROPEAN ANCESTORS? Theory has it our Indo-European Ancestors were FAR from SEA, and they too must have LACKED varieties of words to describe seafearing etc...

Food for thought:

In Serbian Slavic the word Sea is MORE, in Baltic its MARES, LATIN its MARE, GOTHIC its MAREI and Old IRISH its MUIR, whilst the original Indo-European its MORI. Apparently proto-indo european LACKED maritime terminology ALSO, MORI in Old Indo-European meant LAKE, not sea because where they originated from was in-land and far from sea. When they encountered sea they changed the meaning of MORI to represent SEA, OR, they borrowed words from CONQUERED & MIXED PEOPLES, i.e, Greek 'Thalassa'

Hence the old THRACIAN tribal name Moriseni (most likely warped due to latinization)

PS Could it be the descendants of Slavs/Balts WHO spread indo-european lang INTO Europe? Linguists consider BOTH Slavic and Baltic to be archaic indo-european langauges!

Well, you could have copied the word m*r* from Latins and Thracians as well. The whole argument does not rely only upon the word more, it suggests that a much more extensive vocabulary related to the sea is not present in the proto-Slavic language.

From what we know, both Slavic and Baltic were somehow descendants of Thracian. Perhaps Thracian existed in parallel with Slavic and Baltic and it was somewhere in between. Nevertheless, no Satem or even Centum language is suggested to be archaic. The Proto-Indoeuropean is assumed to have been neither Satem nor Centum.

This is how Centum and Satem were formed out of Proto-IndoEuropean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_phonology#Satem_and_Centum_languages


The Satem group of languages merged the labiovelars */kʷ/, */gʷ/, */gʷʰ/ with the plain velar series */k/, */g/, */gʰ/, and the palatovelars became fricatives or affricates. In some phonological conditions depalatalization occurred,[3] yielding what appears to be a Centum reflex in a Satem language.

The Centum group of languages on the other hand merged the palatovelars */ḱ/, */ǵ/, */ǵʰ/ with the plain velar series */k/, */g/, */gʰ/.

The only IndoEuropean languages known to be neither Satem nor Centum are the Anatolian languages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages

It is generally accepted that after PIE, the Centum languages were earlier than the Satem languages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-satem_isogloss#Historical_interpretation_of_the_so und_changes


The Centum–Satem isogloss is now understood to be a chronological development of PIE. Centumization removed the palatovelars from the language, leaving none to satemize. In addition there is residual evidence of various sorts in satem languages of a former distinction between velar and labiovelar consonants, indicating the earlier centum state. It is therefore clear that centumization was followed by satemization.[citation needed] However the evidence of Anatolian indicates that centum was not the original state of PIE.[6]

[Novi Pazar]

^ Petros, as l have said previously, Proto Indo-European also lacked extensive terminology for SEA

[Peterski]

https://s24.postimg.org/ydwtn8jgl/Mac_Ancestors1.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strymonites
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolyani
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhynchinoi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drougoubitai
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berziti
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagudates
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezeritai

[Bosniensis]

https://s24.postimg.org/ydwtn8jgl/Mac_Ancestors1.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strymonites
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolyani
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhynchinoi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drougoubitai
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berziti
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagudates
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezeritai

Slavic language is first recorded several thousand years ago on Danube River Basin.

There is a list of 60 common Slavic Words used by Thracians on Danube (Bulgaria, Serbia). (in my signiture)

Those Thracians moved all up to Poland, Ukraine and Germany through many conquests and wars.

Slavic language Emerged on Balkans and that is something that will be confirmed sooner or later by "official" historians.

[Mingle]

Could the Getae have been a Slavic tribe? They seem to have shared cultural similarities with both Dacians and Scythians..

No. Getae and Dacian are synonyms. Getae is the Greek name whereas Dacian is the Latin name for the same tribe.

[Mingle]

Not convincing. If the PIE meaning for lake was M*r*, then at least one Indoeuropean language would still use the word for lake. None of them does.

PIE is so old, we cannot figure out where it started. One thing is for sure, of the two theories at hand, the one suggests that Centum languages are older than Satem, and the other that they are of the same age. The real question though is the relation of the Anatolian languages which are neither Centum nor Satem, and probably the oldest of them all...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mare#Latin

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mere#English

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Meer#German

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/meer#Dutch

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Slavic language is first recorded several thousand years ago on Danube River Basin.

There is a list of 60 common Slavic Words used by Thracians on Danube (Bulgaria, Serbia). (in my signiture)

Those Thracians moved all up to Poland, Ukraine and Germany through many conquests and wars.

Slavic language Emerged on Balkans and that is something that will be confirmed sooner or later by "official" historians.

ahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahhahaha

Slavic language recorded on Danube River basin??? :D :D

One more theory of Deretic. Here we are, Slavs are now in fact Serbs, right?

Slavs were known for their Zarubintsy culture 3th century BC. And it is the earliest time of Slavs that we can trace.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

And Zarubinsty culture was NOT in the Danube basin.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Przeworsk_culture.png

Red area is Zarubintsy culture. Vistula basin.

[Mingle]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Przeworsk_culture.png

Red area is Zarubintsy culture. Vistula basin.

I think green would be the Vistula Basin and red would be the Dnieper Basin or something.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I think green would be the Vistula Basin and red would be the Dnieper Basin or something.

maybe i change the region. But still red is zarubintsy culture (proto-slav) and green is Przeworsk culture. I was doing it fast.

But i again prove facts to Bosniensis, who wants to be descedant of Roman's.