Croats more German than your average Slav, according to Hitler at least.

[derLowe]

Hitlers Quotes on Croats I Found on another forum by accident. Make of them what you wish.

Quote:
The conqueror of a country is forced to adapt himself to the local language. That is why language is not the immovable monument on which a people's characteristics are inscribed. A people's way of eating, for example, is racially more typical — for every man remains persuaded in his heart that his mother is the best cook. When I tasted the soup of the people of Schleswig - Holstein, it occurred to me that the gruel of the Spartans cannot have been very different. In the time of the great migrations, the tribes were the product of ceaseless mixtures. The men who arrived in the South were not the same as those who went away. One can imagine two hundred young Friesians setting out for the South, like a tank setting out across country, and carrying with them men belonging to other tribes. The Croats are certainly more Germanic than Slav. The Esthonians, too, have a lot of Germanic blood... - page 8

Quote:
If the Croats were part of the Reich, we'd have them serving as faithful auxiliaries of the German Fuehrer, to police our marshes. Whatever happens, one shouldn't treat them as Italy is doing at present. The Croats are a proud people. They should be bound directly to the Fuehrer by an oath of loyalty. Like that, one could rely upon them absolutely. When I have Kvaternik standing in front of me, I behold the very type of the Croat as I've always known him, unshakeable in his friendships, a man whose oath is eternally binding. The Croats are very keen on not being regarded as Slavs. According to them, they're descended from the Goths. The fact that they speak a Slav language is only an accident, they say. - page 95

Quote:
In the Eastern territories I shall replace the Slav geographical titles by German names. The Crimea, for example, might be called Gothenland. Here and there one meets amongst the Arabs men with fair hair and blue eyes. They're the descendants of the Vandals who occupied North Africa. The same phenomenon in Castille and Croatia. The blood doesn't disappear. - page 61

Quote:
The Hungarians are better governed than the Rumanians. What a pity they can't instal Croats instead of Rumanians! The Hungarians are wildly nationalist. They assimilate the Germans at extraordinary speed, and they know how to select the best of them for posts of command. We shan't succeed in preserving the German minorities in Hungary except by taking over control of the State—or else we shall have to withdraw our minorities from Hungary. - page 338

Quote:
It is not possible to generalise on the extent to which the Slav races are susceptible to the Germanic imprint. In point of fact, Tsarist Russia, within the framework of her pan-Slav policy, propagated the qualification Slav and imposed it on a large diversity of people, who had no connection with the Slavonic race. For example, to label the Bulgarians as Slavs is pure nonsense; originally they were Turkomans. The same applies to the Czechs. It is enough for a Czech to grow a moustache for anyone to see, from the way the thing droops, that his origin is Mongolian. Among the so-called Slavs of the South the Dinars are predominant. Turning to the Croats, I must say I think it is highly desirable, from the ethnical point of view, that they should be Germanised. There are, however, political reasons which completely preclude any such measures. There is one cardinal principle. This question of the Germanisation of certain peoples must not be examined in the light of abstract ideas and theory. We must examine each particular case. The only problem is to make sure whether the offspring of any race will mingle well with the German population and will improve it, or whether, on the contrary (as is the case when Jew blood is mixed with German blood), negative results will arise. - page 473
This one is about Croatia. Sounds familiar?

Quote:
The beauties of the Crimea, which we shall make accessible by means of an autobahn—for us Germans, that will be our Riviera. Crete is scorching and dry. Cyprus would be lovely, but we can reach the Crimea by road. Along that road lies Kiev! And Croatia, too, a tourists' paradise for us. I expect that after the war there will be a great upsurge of rejoicing. - page 4

[Corvus]

Yes that`s what Hitler said and that`s the reason why Croatia was a loyal ally of the Axis in WWII - the so called Ustase

[derLowe]

Yes that`s what Hitler said and that`s the reason why Croatia was a loyal ally of the Axis in WWII - the so called Ustase

Both are interesting peices of history that was later suppressed under Titos Yugoslavia, much to the detriment of future generations.

[Rastko]

Subscribin' :)

[RoyBatty]

Would Croats be more "Germanic" or more "Italian" or neither? :confused:

[aimar]

congratulations to croatia and to croats

[derLowe]

Would Croats be more "Germanic" or more "Italian" or neither? :confused:

I think it depends on the area, Istria is has allot of Italian heritage in it and Dalmatia to a point but I am not so sure about the Croatian heartland.

[derLowe]

congratulations to croatia and to croats

Why?

[derLowe]

Here are some interesting facts I dug up.




Danube-Swabian migration to Eastern parts of Croatia
Slavonian settlements
with a significant German population
http://www.croatian-genealogy.com/cro-news/0pictures/2010/osijek-slavonija-genealogy-german.jpg
Osijek - the largest Slavonian city, which by 1931 had about 10 thousand inhabitants of German origin People of German nationality inhabited Croatian region of Slavonia (Slavonija) since 18th century.
After the region was depopulated due to decades of warefare and threats of war between Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and Ottoman Empire, Habsburg authorities made the land available to people from other parts of the monarchy for colonisation. Thus migrations to Slavonia became part of what is in the history known as Danube-Swabian migration.
By 1931, in about 100 settlements in Slavonia there were about 20 thousand inhabitants of Germanic origin. The largest German community was in Osijek (Esseg), with a little less than 10 thousand souls.
Other settlements with larger German population were Virovitica (German: Wirowititz; 2559 inhabitants), Retfala (Rietdorf; 1940), Đakovo (Diakowar; 1597), Gorjani (1376), Krndija (Kerndia; 1345), Slavonski Brod (Slawonisch Brod; 1167), Sarvaš (Sarwasch; 1157), Viškovci (1114), Vrbica (Wrbitza; 1025), Uljanik (972), Našice (Naschitz; 948), Tenja (Tenje; 877), Ernestinovo (Ernestinenhof; 838), Jovanovac (Johannesdorf; 792), Hrastovac (http://www.croatian-genealogy.com/cro-news/20100125-hrastovac-eichendorf-near-garesnica-vital-records.shtml) (Eichendorf; 740), Spišić Bukovica (734), Petrijevci (Petrowitz; 733), Gašinci (Gaschinzi; 716), Tomašanci (Tomaschanzi; 643), Čačinci (Cainci; 635), Kula (also Josefsfeld; 600) Drenjski Slatnik (576), Mrzović (Merschovitz; 575), Miokovićevo (568), Kešinci (Keschinzi; 563), Semeljci (Semelzi; 562), Josipovac (Josefsdorf; 539), Antunovac (Antunowatz; 538), Našička Breznica (Deutsch Bresnitz; 532).
Although not in Slavonia, Croatian city capital Zagreb (in German language called Agram) also had a considerable German population of more than six thousand.
After the Second World War, many members of these communities migrated to Germany, so today in Croatia there is only a tiny minority of people with German origin.
More information about Germans from Slavonia can be found here (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslawon.html).







DONAUSCHWABEN IN SLAVONIA

Diese Seite ist auch auf Deutsch (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslaw-d.html) verfügbar. Contents:



Geography of the Region (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslawon.html#geo)
History of the Region (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslawon.html#his)
Associations and Societies (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslawon.html#soc)
Colonies List (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslawon.html#col)
Bibliography (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslawon.html#bib)
Other Internet Resources (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslawon.html#inter)


Geography of the Region

Slavonia (Serbo-Croatian Slavonija, Hungarian Szlavónia) with its settlement center of Essegg (Osijek) is in present-day northeastern Croatia.
Borders:


North: Drava and Danube Rivers
East: Syrmia (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dssyrmi.html)
South: Sava River
West: Croatia

[This section still under construction.]
[Top of document (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslawon.html#anf)]

History of the Region

Slavonia was part of the duchy of Croatia-Slavonia, which accepted the king of Hungary as its overlord as of 1102 AD. Croatia had two bans who were rulers representing the king: one for Croatia proper and one for Slavonia, which also had its own diet. Over time, however, Slavonia, with the nearby direct influence of Hungary, grew closer to Budapest and after 1442 started sending its deputies to the Hungarian diet. Eventually, this caused it to lose its distinct status.
Slavonia included the city of Zagreb, where a Roman Catholic diocesan see had been established in 1093. It was subordinated to the Hungarian archdiocese of Kalocsa.
Like most of its neighbors, Slavonia was conquered by the Ottoman Empire during the 16th century. In the Habsburg advance following the Ottoman retreat from Vienna, most of Slavonia fell to them and was confirmed by the peace signed at Sremski Karlovci (Karlowitz) in 1699. The rest of Slavonia was added at the Peace of Pozarevac (Passarowitz) in 1718. As the region was now depopulated, the Habsburg authorities encouraged emigration from other parts of their Empire; thus did Slavonia become part of the Danube-Swabian migration.
An Eastern Orthodox Eparch (bishop) had his seat at Pakrac. After 1557, the Serbian Patriarch at Pec (Ipek) had jurisdiction over this and many other Eparchs.
The following founding dates of some Slavonian communities are from Land an der Donau by Günter Schödl:
1744 Deutsch-Mihaljevci (the oldest German settlement; established by Grundherr Franz von der Trenk)
1748 Neu-Gradischka (in the Military Border region)
1750 Lukatsch
1769 Hirschfeld (founded by Graf Johann Palffy); Krawitz (its first German settlers arrived); Raisavci
1770 Alaginci; (Deutsch)-Rietdorf (founded next to Ungarisch-Retfalva); Suhopolje-Terzovac
1782 Zabuna
1786 Antonsdorf; Josefsdorf (beside Krawitz); Kula
1787 Poretsch
1792 Esseger Neustadt (founded by settlers from Württemberg)
1885 Welimirowatz (founded by German Protestants from the Batschka)

After the First World War, Slavonia was ceded from Hungary to the newly-formed Yugoslavia as part of the Treaty of Trianon (June 4, 1920). It was not absorbed back into Hungary during the years 1941-44 as other neighboring regions were. Following the Second World War, Slavonia with Croatia, Austrian Dalmatia, southern Istria and southern Baranya, but not Syrmia (Srem), constituted the state of Croatia within the Yugoslavian nation. As of May 19, 1991, these areas, including Slavonia, became the new nation of Croatia.
[This section still under further construction.]
[Top of document (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslawon.html#anf)]
Associations and Societies

AKdFF (http://www.genealogienetz.de/gene/vereine/AKdFF/akdff-en.html) Research Help:


Rosina T. Schmidt (rosinats@telus.net), 3196 Merry Men Way, Nanaimo, BC V9T 5L5, Kanada

Heimatortsgemeinschaften (HOGS):
Please note that except where otherwise noted, all the contacts are located in Germany; this should be taken into account when addressing letters.

Ernestinovo: Johann Tisler, Rottweiler Str. 28, 78056 Villingen-Schwenningen
Essegg: Karl Schumm, Berlinerstr. 15/1, 71034 Böblingen
Georgshof-Brezik: Gerhard Lichtenberger, Breslauer Str. 68, 88512 Mengen
Krndija: Matthias Stolz, Ferdinand-Pirsch-Str. 5, A-8054 Graz, Austria
Mrzovic: Frau Rosalia Lottje, Daimlerstr. 23, 74564 Crailsheim
Ober-Josefsdorf/Krawitz: Georg Tscherny, Pirmasenser Str. 12, 76187 Karlsruhe
Sarwasch-Hirschfeld: Franz Buch, Buchenring 29, 76297 Stutensee-Büchig
Sarwasch: Hans Gassenheimer, Erlenweg 53, A-8530 Deutschlandsberg, Austria
Tomaschantzi-Gorjani: Josef Eder, Uracher Str. 3, 71069 Sindelfingen
Viskovci: Johann Possert, Höhenweg 9, A-8501 Liebach, Austria
Welimirowatz: Leopold Barwich, O.-Fischer-Weg 7, 72766 Reutlingen
Welimirowatz: Jakob Pauss, Geigelbergweg 39, 72336 Balingen

[Top of document (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslawon.html#anf)] Colonies List

The Donauschwaben colonies in Slavonia are listed in Slavonia Village List, (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/vl_slavo.html) or you may first consult the list index. (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/in_slavo.html) With a few exceptions, the list attempts to describe only those localities having a population of at least 100 Germans in the 1930s. A village list which included every town in Slavonia would be much longer, unwieldy and not all that much more useful to Donauschwaben researchers. See the Village List Home (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsinfo.htm) for more information.
If you don't find your place of interest, Shtetl Seeker (http://www.jewishgen.org/shtetlseeker/loctown.HTM) is an interactive, fuzzy-search gazetteer with maps of 24 countries east of Germany, Austria and Slovenia (inclusive).
Note:
- Information on FHL microfilms is from "Microfilmed church records for places in Yugoslavia with German population" by Laraine K. Ferguson and Wendelin Michels, published in the German Genealogical Digest, vol. 8, issue 1, pp 8-16.
- Microfilmed records may contain gaps.
- FHL film numbers have not yet been added.
- Filial parishes are included under the main parish but do not necessarily have their own entry.
[Top of document (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslawon.html#anf)]

Bibliography

Books describing the history and genealogy of entire region. (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslaw-d.html#bib)
Books (Ortsfamilienbücher) describing the history and genealogy of a specific community (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslaw-d.html#orts) within the region.
[Top of document (http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsslawon.html#anf)]
Other Internet Resources



Croatia (http://zagreb.matis.hr)
Croatia GenWeb (http://www.rootsweb.com/%7Ehrvwgw/)
Internet Resources for Croatian Studies (http://src-home.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/eng/cee/croat-e.html)

[Duke]

No, we are not Germans, lol WTF, we are much better :D

Thing with Goth story, it was made up so we could be incorporated into German elite military troops, as they could be only of Germanic stock.
So it was made up purely because of political reason.

[Dilberth]

We are Slavic,although many people have some Kraut in the bloodline.

[Ushtari]

We are Slavic,although many people have some distant Kraut in the bloodline.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/N110_ruuti.jpg/250px-N110_ruuti.jpg


Krut=powder in swedish:D

[derLowe]

No, we are not Germans, lol WTF, we are much better :D

Thing with Goth story, it was made up so we could be incorporated into German elite military troops, as they could be only of Germanic stock.
So it was purely political reason.

I stole this off http://www.slavorum.com/index.php/topic,788.0.html




That's what our scientists lately said in the newspapers (few weeks ago) according to this latest European-Union research

EU7
Croats 44,8%
Lapps (Saami): 41,7% <--- LOL
Germans: 37,5%


EU19
Hungarians 60% <---- Magyars turn to have most I-E EU19 genome by this recent study
Poles 56%
Ukrainians 54%
Croats: 29%


http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf


Germanic-Dinaric haplogroup (Eu7 or I) is the most frequent in West Balkans (to 73% in Dalmatia and Herzegovina), reaching across Germany northwards to Skandinavia (48 %) and eastwards to Caucasus (58 %), Kurdistan and Teheran (to 34%). It includes 4 similar regional subtypes. The Germanic-Dinaric haplogroup is divisible into the Germanic haplogroup (I1), which is most common in Scandinavia, and the Dinaric haplogroup (I2), which is most common in the West Balkans.

Other dozen genomic types indicated mostly in southern and eastern Europe there are rare, and they are more expanded and frequent in Asia and Africa being remarkable for other non-white human populations (in the next list added together as non-European: Neu).

In following comparative list, the participation of 3 main European genoms in fifty different ethnic groups of Europe and adjacent western Asia is presented. Related ethnic groups here are arranged after the decreasing percentages of all included European haplotypes. Symbols used: Eu = total percentage of all 3 European types, R1b = West-European type, R1a = East-European type, I = Germanic-Dinaric haplogroup, I1 = Germanic haplogroup, I2 = Dinaric haplogroup, Neu = total percentage of other out-European types presented, ! = genetic position very divergent from traditional cultural prejudices.

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomic_Europeanism




They claim because most of Croats belongs to the Haplogroup I, specifically haplotype Eu7 which is found highly among Germans (37%) and Lapps (41%!), and only secondly to haplogroup R1a that we have more population genetic wise common links with present day Germanics and Lapps...and to add that second Slavic nation to Croatia with most Eu7 is Poland (23%).

However the truth is that Haplotype Eu7 is was actually found in Europe, and is older than terms "Germanic" or "Slavic" thus it's found in lets say Slavic Croatia and Germanic Germany, however scientists nevertheless say that since that is the situation found today that Croats are due to Genetics more similar to Germans and Lapps than to Slavic neighbors. Nothing makes sense anymore, it's funny how everything in Europe is mixed today actually, you can even hardly say who is who according to genetics.

My personal thoughts on the whole matter are: Croatians should focus on being them selves and working in their best interest, every thing else is a distraction.

[Duke]

@derLowe

Its old info, I hg is not Germanic, but predates all of those tribal constructs, and languages, and our I hg is of different kind than that found in Scandinavia and north Germany.

[Onur]

There was once a theory about Croats supposedly being the descendants of Germanic tribes. Ofc it was a stupid theory and no one believed it but Hitler was probably using this argument to pull Croats to his side.

[derLowe]

@derLowe

Its old info, I hg is not Germanic, but predates all of those tribal constructs, and languages, and our I hg is of different kind that that found in Scandinavia and north Germany.

I am indifferent really, I just thought it was some thing different and odd.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Germanic? :puke Who wants to be a Germanic? Being Slavic is the best gift anyone can be born with. :thumb001:

[poiuytrewq0987]

There was once a theory about Croats supposedly being the descendants of Germanic tribes. Ofc it was a stupid theory and no one believed it but Hitler was probably using this argument to pull Croats to his side.

It worked since almost all Croatian officers of Yugoslavian army defected when Germany invaded the country.

[Duke]

I am indifferent really, I just thought it was some thing different and odd.

I have strong aversion towards wannabism, so I am glad that you as a member of my tribe :D look at it indifferently :thumb001:

[derLowe]

I have strong aversion to wannabism, so I am glad that you as a member of my tribe :D look at it indifferently :thumb001:

I am not a fan of it either, it is best to be a first class version of your self than a third rate copy.

[Insuperable]

@derLowe

Its old info, I hg is not Germanic, but predates all of those tribal constructs, and languages, and our I hg is of different kind than that found in Scandinavia and north Germany.

Yes I1 is common in Scandinavia
I2b is present in Germany and Britain
I2a2 is most frequent in Western Balkans

[Duke]

Yes I1 is common in Scandinavia
I2b is present in Germany and Britain
I2a2 is most frequent in Western Balkans

In Scandinavia Saami have it the most i think, and there is another subclade that is common on Sardinia.

[Viljuska]

Hitlers Quotes on Croats
Dates would have been interesting.
I bet this was after April 1941.

[Insuperable]

There is a 90 year old guy in a city close to me who according to him handshaked with Hitler and they exchanged a few words supposedly. He was a member of Ustashe and I do not know if he fought with Germans closely.
Allegedly Hitler told him that he liked Croats because of they loyalty and that they are a few people he could rely on.
I do not know if this guy in his prime age looked like some Nazi ideal officer with blond hair and blue eyes nor Croats in general do but I think he admired on this qualities which I have described more than that.
I have never talked to him. He is old and does not go out but once people pointed to him luckily. Its a small town and everyone knows everyone so I doubt it is a lie.

[Rastko]

nGclSvu0O3I

;)

[~Nik~]

Hitler also said in Mein Kampf (I think), that the Austrians and the Germans had already a lot of Slavic blood, he meant by that, that the "immigrations" of the Slavs have weakened the Germanic world in its supposed integrity. About the Croats, the Austro-Hungarian assimilation is more to point than these Goths, IMO.

[Lena]

Being Slavic is the best gift anyone can be born with. :thumb001:

I totally agree :thumb001:

Slava! :)

[Crn Volk]

I totally agree :thumb001:

Slava! :)

Here here :thumb001:

[Pallantides]

Genetics > Adolf Hitler's opinions


In Scandinavia Saami have it the most i think

True, they have the highest frequency of y-DNA haplogroup I1. But they are a rather small ethnic group though(70-80.000)

[Septentrion]

Hitlers Quotes on Croats I Found on another forum by accident. Make of them what you wish.

Quote:
The conqueror of a country is forced to adapt himself to the local language. That is why language is not the immovable monument on which a people's characteristics are inscribed. A people's way of eating, for example, is racially more typical — for every man remains persuaded in his heart that his mother is the best cook. When I tasted the soup of the people of Schleswig - Holstein, it occurred to me that the gruel of the Spartans cannot have been very different. In the time of the great migrations, the tribes were the product of ceaseless mixtures. The men who arrived in the South were not the same as those who went away. One can imagine two hundred young Friesians setting out for the South, like a tank setting out across country, and carrying with them men belonging to other tribes. The Croats are certainly more Germanic than Slav. The Esthonians, too, have a lot of Germanic blood... - page 8

Quote:
If the Croats were part of the Reich, we'd have them serving as faithful auxiliaries of the German Fuehrer, to police our marshes. Whatever happens, one shouldn't treat them as Italy is doing at present. The Croats are a proud people. They should be bound directly to the Fuehrer by an oath of loyalty. Like that, one could rely upon them absolutely. When I have Kvaternik standing in front of me, I behold the very type of the Croat as I've always known him, unshakeable in his friendships, a man whose oath is eternally binding. The Croats are very keen on not being regarded as Slavs. According to them, they're descended from the Goths. The fact that they speak a Slav language is only an accident, they say. - page 95

Quote:
In the Eastern territories I shall replace the Slav geographical titles by German names. The Crimea, for example, might be called Gothenland. Here and there one meets amongst the Arabs men with fair hair and blue eyes. They're the descendants of the Vandals who occupied North Africa. The same phenomenon in Castille and Croatia. The blood doesn't disappear. - page 61

Quote:
The Hungarians are better governed than the Rumanians. What a pity they can't instal Croats instead of Rumanians! The Hungarians are wildly nationalist. They assimilate the Germans at extraordinary speed, and they know how to select the best of them for posts of command. We shan't succeed in preserving the German minorities in Hungary except by taking over control of the State—or else we shall have to withdraw our minorities from Hungary. - page 338


Quote:
It is not possible to generalise on the extent to which the Slav races are susceptible to the Germanic imprint. In point of fact, Tsarist Russia, within the framework of her pan-Slav policy, propagated the qualification Slav and imposed it on a large diversity of people, who had no connection with the Slavonic race. For example, to label the Bulgarians as Slavs is pure nonsense; originally they were Turkomans. The same applies to the Czechs. It is enough for a Czech to grow a moustache for anyone to see, from the way the thing droops, that his origin is Mongolian. Among the so-called Slavs of the South the Dinars are predominant. Turning to the Croats, I must say I think it is highly desirable, from the ethnical point of view, that they should be Germanised. There are, however, political reasons which completely preclude any such measures. There is one cardinal principle. This question of the Germanisation of certain peoples must not be examined in the light of abstract ideas and theory. We must examine each particular case. The only problem is to make sure whether the offspring of any race will mingle well with the German population and will improve it, or whether, on the contrary (as is the case when Jew blood is mixed with German blood), negative results will arise. - page 473
This one is about Croatia. Sounds familiar?

Quote:
The beauties of the Crimea, which we shall make accessible by means of an autobahn—for us Germans, that will be our Riviera. Crete is scorching and dry. Cyprus would be lovely, but we can reach the Crimea by road. Along that road lies Kiev! And Croatia, too, a tourists' paradise for us. I expect that after the war there will be a great upsurge of rejoicing. - page 4

Hitler was an idiot and a Kraut!

[Bosniensis]

Hitler was an idiot and a Kraut!

Gz on resurrecting 7 year old thread.

World Record.

[Crn Volk]

Some great former members in this thread. Ah the good old days

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

lmao, croats are actually heavily slavic. it's slovenes who are bastardized with germans, and germans treated them as subhumans while croats were regarded as fellow goths :rotfl:

[Dacul]

I do hear that a lot of Croats mixed with Austrians, when Croatia was part of Habsburg Empire.
Is that true?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

I do hear that a lot of Croats mixed with Austrians, when Croatia was part of Habsburg Empire.
Is that true?

not that much

[Pribislav]

I do hear that a lot of Croats mixed with Austrians, when Croatia was part of Habsburg Empire.
Is that true?

There was some mixing of Croatians with Germans/Austrians, but on the level which most of Croatians (germanophile nation on everage) would like. Slovenians are quite more mixed with Germans than Croatians.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

There was some mixing of Croatians with Germans/Austrians, but on the level which most of Croatians (germanophile nation on everage) would like. Slovenians are quite more mixed with Germans than Croatians.

yes. it's not even comparable. i'd go as far and say average slovene is probably like half german and most people aren't even aware of it. same applies to czechs

[Pribislav]

yes. it's not even comparable. i'd go as far and say average slovene is probably like half german and most people aren't even aware of it. same applies to czechs

Slovenians have around 30% Germanic y dna.

[Dalmatinac]

I do hear that a lot of Croats mixed with Austrians, when Croatia was part of Habsburg Empire.
Is that true?

Not really. It happened only to Croats in Austria, mostly in the region of Burgenland where many Croats settled after fleeing from the Ottoman Turks. They were heavily germanised and today they number only around 100.000 people. According to some sources Joseph Haydn, famous austrian composer was a germanized Croat. Another good example is the owner of the Red Bull company - Dietrich Mateschitz, ancestor of germanized Croats. Many of them today declare as Austrians but didn't forget their roots

[Hercegovka]

yes. it's not even comparable. i'd go as far and say average slovene is probably like half german and most people aren't even aware of it. same applies to czechs

Definitely agree. My cousin married a Slovenian and the Slovenes are definitely more german than we croats.

[Mingle]

The amount of German among the Slovenes is heavily overrated. Slovenia was occupied by Austria for centuries, but there wasn't some mass colonization effort. Even though many Austrians did settle in Slovenia, it wasn't on some grand scale comparable to the Slavs settling in the Balkans. And most of Austria (Central Austria & East Austria) was Slavic land that Germans (specifically Bavarians) expanded into. Prior to the Germanization/Bavarianization of Austria, the people there would have been quite close to modern day Hungarians and Central European Slavic groups like Czechs, Slovenes, and Slovaks. After Germanization, Austria (Central & East Austria) probably didn't change that much considering that modern day Austrians are quite close to Central European Slavs and Hungarians. In fact, the average Austrian likely has more Slavic blood than Germanic blood. The Austrians aren't North Germans or something. IIRC, Austrians can get modeled as being around 50%+ Slavic. That means the remainder of their blood is Germanic in addition to a few other components. Modern day Slovenes are are genetically very close to Hungarians and Northwest Croats and hard to distinguish genetically. So if you're gonna say that Slovenes are some sort of German mixlings, then the same should apply to Northwest Croats and Hungarians, as well as others like Czechs and Slovaks. All these groups have Germanic admixture, but most of it is ancient (mainly East Germanic) IMO.

[Peterski]

The amount of German among the Slovenes is heavily overrated. Slovenia was occupied by Austria for centuries, but there wasn't some mass colonization effort. Even though many Austrians did settle in Slovenia, it wasn't on some grand scale comparable to the Slavs settling in the Balkans. And most of Austria (Central Austria & East Austria) was Slavic land that Germans (specifically Bavarians) expanded into. Prior to the Germanization/Bavarianization of Austria, the people there would have been quite close to modern day Hungarians and Central European Slavic groups like Czechs, Slovenes, and Slovaks. After Germanization, Austria (Central & East Austria) probably didn't change that much considering that modern day Austrians are quite close to Central European Slavs and Hungarians. In fact, the average Austrian likely has more Slavic blood than Germanic blood. The Austrians aren't North Germans or something. IIRC, Austrians can get modeled as being around 50%+ Slavic. That means the remainder of their blood is Germanic in addition to a few other components. Modern day Slovenes are are genetically very close to Hungarians and Northwest Croats and hard to distinguish genetically. So if you're gonna say that Slovenes are some sort of German mixlings, then the same should apply to Northwest Croats and Hungarians, as well as others like Czechs and Slovaks.

Before Slavs settled in Slovenia, what was the Pre-Slavic population of Slovenia autosomally like, in your opinion? Was it similar to North Italians, or to someone else? Many Oracles on GEDmatch model Slovenes as 75% Polish + 25% North Italian (with rather close distances, meaning that the model is good without adding anything else, just these two populations are enough to explain Slovenes). I wonder where is the additional German admix "hiding" there?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

The amount of German among the Slovenes is heavily overrated. Slovenia was occupied by Austria for centuries, but there wasn't some mass colonization effort. Even though many Austrians did settle in Slovenia, it wasn't on some grand scale comparable to the Slavs settling in the Balkans. And most of Austria (Central Austria & East Austria) was Slavic land that Germans (specifically Bavarians) expanded into. Prior to the Germanization/Bavarianization of Austria, the people there would have been quite close to modern day Hungarians and Central European Slavic groups like Czechs, Slovenes, and Slovaks. After Germanization, Austria (Central & East Austria) probably didn't change that much considering that modern day Austrians are quite close to Central European Slavs and Hungarians. In fact, the average Austrian likely has more Slavic blood than Germanic blood. The Austrians aren't North Germans or something. IIRC, Austrians can get modeled as being around 50%+ Slavic. That means the remainder of their blood is Germanic in addition to a few other components. Modern day Slovenes are are genetically very close to Hungarians and Northwest Croats and hard to distinguish genetically. So if you're gonna say that Slovenes are some sort of German mixlings, then the same should apply to Northwest Croats and Hungarians, as well as others like Czechs and Slovaks. All these groups have Germanic admixture, but most of it is ancient (mainly East Germanic) IMO.

Austrians have lot of Keltic blood also. Slavic is less than Germanic. About Slovenes, they are most German shifted Slavic population. Not Czechs.
German isn't same as Germanic. You should take a look at average Slovenian phenotypes. They certanly look nothing like Ukrainians and Belarusians.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Take a look at my K16. 1/2 Slovene, 1/8 Czech.

http://oi66.tinypic.com/e86f07.jpg
http://oi68.tinypic.com/fwpz14.jpg

[Mingle]

Before Slavs settled in Slovenia, what was the Pre-Slavic population of Slovenia autosomally like? Similar to North Italians or to someone else?

Many calculators on GEDmatch model Slovenians as Polish + North Italian.

They were like North Italians. Ajeje Brazorf (or however you spell his name) showed some GEDmatch results of the Pre-Slavic people of Croatia and they were basically the same as North Italians so no reason why they wouldn't have been like that in Slovenia as well since it's between Croatia and North Italy. If Slovenes do have Germanic admixture, most of it is probably going to be prior to the Austrian occupation I'd say.

I've noticed when comparing Austrians to Slovenes, Croats, and Czechs; they're treated as if they're Scandinavians for some reason. Though when Austrians are being compared with other Germanic people, then they're treated more fairly (Slavic & Ancient Germanic mix).

[Peterski]

Austrians have lot of Keltic blood also.

Hallstatt Celtic sample DA111 wasn't close to modern Austrians. DA112 was, but according to Token it was not a Celt but a genetically Eastern-shifted Celticized Scythian (not sure what is his evidence to support this hypothesis, though):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?276388-Hallstatt-Celt-DA112-850-700-BC

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Before Slavs settled in Slovenia, what was the Pre-Slavic population of Slovenia autosomally like, in your opinion? Was it similar to North Italians, or to someone else? Many Oracles on GEDmatch model Slovenes as 75% Polish + 25% North Italian (with rather close distances, meaning that the model is good without adding anything else, just these two populations are enough to explain Slovenes). I wonder where is the additional German admix "hiding" there?

In both Poles and N. Italians. Funny to see heavy German admixed Polaks like you denying the obvious facts.

[Hercegovka]

Austrians have lot of Keltic blood also. Slavic is less than Germanic. About Slovenes, they are most German shifted Slavic population. Not Czechs.
German isn't same as Germanic. You should take a look at average Slovenian phenotypes. They certanly look nothing like Ukrainians and Belarusians.

Absolutely. Also when I say 'Slovenes are more german' I mean its more in their attitude and culture. They have the efficiency thing going on etc. Yes some northern croatian culture is similar to german (love of pork, sauerkraut and other pickled vegetables) but its more a slovenian thing to me. Maybe I see it as I do because I was raised by my grandmother who was croatian from Hercegovina so her culture was more southern croatian. My grandfather was from Zargoje and his culture was different! Interesting! :thumb001:

[Creoda]

IIRC, when I modelled Austrians in G25 they were almost exactly a 4 way mix of Hallstatt Celts, Germanics, Slavs (Slavic Bohemia) and Paleo Balkanites/Meds.

[Mingle]

Austrians have lot of Keltic blood also. Slavic is less than Germanic. About Slovenes, they are most German shifted Slavic population. Not Czechs.
German isn't same as Germanic. You should take a look at average Slovenian phenotypes. They certanly look nothing like Ukrainians and Belarusians.

Slovenes, Austrians, Hungarians, NW Croats, Czechs, and Slovaks are a mix of Kelts, Germanics, and Slavs. Austrians are closer to Ukrainians (proxy for Proto-Slavs) than they are to Danes (proxy for Proto-Germanics). Since they're closer to Ukrainians, that means they have more Slavic blood than they have Germanic blood.

If you want to argue that the Austrians have more Germanic blood than they have Slavic blood, then you should say the same about Slovenes, Hungarians, NW Croats, Czechs, and Slovaks since they're genetically closest to Austrians.

Differentiating between German and Germanic isn't really relevant here. Northwest Germans are genetically close to Proto-Germanics anyways.

Ukrainians don't have Keltic or Germanic blood (like Czechs, Slovaks, Austrians, etc. do). That's why they don't look the same.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Slovenes, Austrians, Hungarians, NW Croats, Czechs, and Slovaks are a mix of Kelts, Germanics, and Slavs. Austrians are closer to Ukrainians (proxy for Proto-Slavs) than they are to Danes (proxy for Proto-Germanics). Since they're closer to Ukrainians, that means they have more Slavic blood than they have Germanic blood.

Based on what ? I would argue Austrians aren't even easternmost shifted/least Germanic Germans. East Prussians like man in my avatar probably were.

[Peterski]

Proto-Slavic genetic profile - at least when looking at Y-DNA haplogroup (high frequencies of I2a-Din, R1a-Z280 and R1a-M458 in the same area) - peaks in today's Belgorod, Oryol, Kursk, Bryansk and Voronezh Oblasts of Russia. People from this area are both ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians - around year 1900 Kursk Governate had ~25% of Ukrainian-speakers and Voronezh Governorate ~40% of Ukrainian-speakers. Belgorod was located in Voronezh Governorate at that time. Some GEDmatch calculators like Eurogenes K15 and K13 have Ukrainians_Belgorod reference. Ukrainians from Belgorod Oblast were also used by to create "East-Central Euro" component for K36 calculator.

[Blondie]

Slovenes, Austrians, Hungarians, NW Croats, Czechs, and Slovaks are a mix of Kelts, Germanics, and Slavs. Austrians are closer to Ukrainians (proxy for Proto-Slavs) than they are to Danes (proxy for Proto-Germanics). Since they're closer to Ukrainians, that means they have more Slavic blood than they have Germanic blood.

If you want to argue that the Austrians have more Germanic blood than they have Slavic blood, then you should say the same about Slovenes, Hungarians, NW Croats, Czechs, and Slovaks since they're genetically closest to Austrians.

Differentiating between German and Germanic isn't really relevant here. Northwest Germans are genetically close to Proto-Germanics anyways.

Ukrainians don't have Keltic or Germanic blood (like Czechs, Slovaks, Austrians, etc. do). That's why they don't look the same.

Austrian Y dna: 19% slavic r1a, 32% germanic r1b, 12% germanic I1:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Autosomaly:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_French_German.png

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Northwest_European.png

Austrians are much closer to danes than to ukrainians:

https://thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/image5.png

[Insuperable]

Absolutely. Also when I say 'Slovenes are more german' I mean its more in their attitude and culture. They have the efficiency thing going on etc. Yes some northern croatian culture is similar to german (love of pork, sauerkraut and other pickled vegetables) but its more a slovenian thing to me. Maybe I see it as I do because I was raised by my grandmother who was croatian from Hercegovina so her culture was more southern croatian. My grandfather was from Zargoje and his culture was different! Interesting! :thumb001:

Why is northern croatian culture different regarding that? Are you sure your grandmother was from Hercegovina? Just before winter most houses in my village prepare cabbage to be fermented (there is still one almost entire barrel filled with water and cabbage rolled in cellophane or whatever it is inside), sour pickles, sour paprikas. After Kolinje (or pig slaugter) people make sausages, bacon for winter, prsciutto etc. The same thing is done in southern Croatia and christian areas of B&H and Serbia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_slaughter

[Peterski]

Proto-Slavic genetic profile - at least when looking at Y-DNA haplogroup (high frequencies of I2a-Din, R1a-Z280 and R1a-M458 in the same area) - peaks in today's Belgorod, Oryol, Kursk, Bryansk and Voronezh Oblasts of Russia. People from this area are both ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians - around year 1900 Kursk Governate had ~25% of Ukrainian-speakers and Voronezh Governorate ~40% of Ukrainian-speakers. Belgorod was located in Voronezh Governorate at that time. Some GEDmatch calculators like Eurogenes K15 and K13 have Ukrainians_Belgorod reference. Ukrainians from Belgorod Oblast were also used by to create "East-Central Euro" component for K36 calculator.

^^^ Smolensk Oblast most probably has Baltic admixture already.

And more eastern areas probably have Uralic admixture already.

Y-DNA studies did not find any significant frequencies of Uralo-Baltic N1c haplogroup in Belgorod, Kursk, Oryol, Voronezh and Bryansk. On the other hand, this area has not only high R1a (both Z280 and M458) but also high I2a-Din (or I2a-Slavic as some call it).

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Why is northern croatian culture different regarding that? Are you sure your grandmother was from Hercegovina? Just before winter most houses in my village prepare cabbage to be fermented (there is still one almost entire barrel filled with water and cabbage rolled in cellophane or whatever it is inside), sour pickles, sour paprikas. After Kolinje (or pig slaugter) people make sausages, bacon for winter, prsciutto etc. The same thing is done in southern Croatia and christian areas of B&H and Serbia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_slaughter

Barbaric practice. Should be abandoned.

[Insuperable]

Barbaric practice. Should be abandoned.

People are starting to use those special guns just like countries in more northern areas of Europe.

[Hercegovka]

Why is northern croatian culture different regarding that? Are you sure your grandmother was from Hercegovina? Just before winter most houses in my village prepare cabbage to be fermented (there is still one almost entire barrel filled with water and cabbage rolled in cellophane or whatever it is inside), sour pickles, sour paprikas. After Kolinje (or pig slaugter) people make sausages, bacon for winter, prosciutto etc. The same thing is done in southern Croatia and christian areas of B&H and Serbia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_slaughter

Yes she definitely was from Hercegovina. I see your point about food being similar in some respects. My grandmother always said pork was too expensive for her family so they ate more lamb and goat. Pork was an meat they ate only on very special occasions. But Im talking in more general terms, the music and dance was different also to northern croatia and also the attitude. Its just an interesting contrast for me, my grandfathers family from northern croatia (zargoje) ate pork and chicken more and they were more central European in a way. My grandmother and her family were more 'Balkan' in a way in their attitude and dance and food. All croatian, all catholic but just quite different in many ways.

[Peterski]

Ukrainians don't have Keltic (...)

West Ukrainians have some, given their increased similarity to Hallstatt DA111 and DA112.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

Hallstatt Celtic sample DA111 wasn't close to modern Austrians. DA112 was, but according to Token it was not a Celt but a genetically Eastern-shifted Celticized Scythian (not sure what is his evidence to support this hypothesis, though):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?276388-Hallstatt-Celt-DA112-850-700-BC

Closer to Austrians than anyone else. It's clear Celtic admixture shifted south Germans (it includes Austrians) further from Scandinavians and North Germans, Dutch. But not only that.
There is some med also.

[Peterski]

IIRC, when I modelled Austrians in G25 they were almost exactly a 4 way mix of Hallstatt Celts, Germanics, Slavs (Slavic Bohemia) and Paleo Balkanites/Meds.

Looks good but it depends on where (which region of Austria) the Austrian sample is from.

Austrians from Vorarlberg and Tyrol have no Slavic (or maybe trace amounts, but not more than a few percent), while Austrians from South-Eastern regions have more than 25% of this ancestry.

[Insuperable]

Yes she definitely was from Hercegovina. I see your point about food being similar in some respects. My grandmother always said pork was too expensive for her family so they ate more lamb and goat. Pork was an meat they ate only on very special occasions. But Im talking in more general terms, the music and dance was different also to northern croatia and also the attitude. Its just an interesting contrast for me, my grandfathers family from northern croatia (zargoje) ate pork and chicken more and they were more central European in a way. My grandmother and her family were more 'Balkan' in a way in their attitude and dance and food. All croatian, all catholic but just quite different in many ways.

Pork is eaten only during winter and sometime just before winter. Other days of the year beef, lamb, beef. First time I hear somebody eats goat, but whatever. Usually out of 2, 3 or 4 close families, one family deals with feeding and taking care of pigs during the rest of the year. Others provide some money. When Kolinje comes everyone gathers, slaughter the pigs, meat is divided among families (it can last very long during the winter), sausages are being prepared for drying, pig greaves, bacon etc. Sausages, bacon, prsciutto can last the whole year. In the end it doesn't turn out to be expensive, unless somebody doesn't do that and goes to buy meat in the stores. About music and dance, sure they are different.

Most of these traditions will die out because of stupid mdoern times.

[Peterski]

Austrian Y dna: 19% slavic r1a

Graz (originally Gradec, it was a town founded by Carantanian Slavs) has 42%, while area with no Slavic toponyms in Tyrol has 0-3%.

[Hercegovka]

Pork is eaten only during winter and sometime just before winter. Other days of the year beef, lamb, beef. First time I hear somebody eats goat, but whatever. Usually out of 2, 3 or 4 close families, one family deals with feeding and taking care of pigs during the rest of the year. Others provide some money. When Kolinje comes everyone gathers, slaughter the pigs, meat is divided among families (it can last very long during the winter), sausages are being prepared for drying, pig greaves, bacon etc. In the end it doesn't turn out to be expensive, unless somebody doesn't do that and goes to buy meat in the stores. About music and dance, sure they are different.

Yes Yes I know but remember this was in the 1930s and early 1940s, not now a days.

[Insuperable]

Yes Yes I know but remember this was in the 1930s and early 1940s, not now a days.

Nope. It is still done, in somewhat lesser number. In 20 or 30 years from now almost nobody is going to do it. From 60% to 0%.

[Peterski]

Closer to Austrians than anyone else.

No, DA112 is just as close to Bretons as to Austrians.

[Hercegovka]

Nope. It is still done, in somewhat lesser number. In 20 or 30 years from now almost nobody is going to do it. From 60% to 0%.

Thanks I didn't know it was still done by 60%. That's good as I believe it's important to remain traditional! I still cook punjene paprike and sarma during winter and things so it remains alive for me. Anyway yes my grandmother did talk about sharing meat if one family slaughtered one it would be shared etc etc :)

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

No, DA112 is just as close to Bretons as to Austrians.

Hallstatt Kelt is closer to Austrians than to Irish, Scottish and Welsh. That is in line with my previous statement.

[Mingle]

Austrian Y dna: 19% slavic r1a, 32% germanic r1b, 12% germanic I1:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Autosomaly:

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_French_German.png

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Northwest_European.png

Austrians are much closer to danes than to ukrainians:

https://thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/image5.png

I'm only talking about autosomal DNA.

I recall seeing a GEDmatch result before where the Austrian guy got Ukrainians and Poles before he got North Germans so that's why I said that. But an Austrian with GEDmatch kit# M368955 (he was posted here before) is closer to North Germans than to Danes, but marginally closer to Ukrainians than to Danes. He may be a bit more southeast-shifted than average. I guess Austrians may be closer to Danes than to Ukrainians, but the difference probably isn't that big.

By the way, I'm skeptical of PCAs. Many of them are outdated and can have a projection bias which is why they sometimes contradict GEDmatch.

[Mingle]

Looks good but it depends on where (which region of Austria) the Austrian sample is from.

Austrians from Vorarlberg and Tyrol have no Slavic (or maybe trace amounts, but not more than a few percent), while Austrians from South-Eastern regions have more than 25% of this ancestry.

Where does the "Balkanite" admixture among Austrians come from? Is it Southern European admixture from the Italic peoples?

I recall you saying that Austrians are around 50% Slavic before. But if they're "only" 25% Slavic, then would you say the same about Slovenes and Hungarians? How much Slavic are East Germans?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

I'm only talking about autosomal DNA.

I recall seeing a GEDmatch result before where the Austrian guy got Ukrainians and Poles before he got North Germans so that's why I said that. But an Austrian with GEDmatch kit# M368955 (he was posted here before) is closer to North Germans than to Danes, but marginally closer to Ukrainians than to Danes. He may be a bit more southeast-shifted than average. I guess Austrians may be closer to Danes than to Ukrainians, but the difference probably isn't that big.

By the way, I'm skeptical of PCAs. Many of them are outdated and can have a projection bias which is why they sometimes contradict GEDmatch.

PCA should work better than gedmatch. Often people get poor fit in single population sharing. It doesn't mean they are close to populations they get. Take a look at Istrian Croat. He gets Serbs as number one on gedmatch but actually he isn't close to Serbian average at all, but between French/Germans and Serbs.

[Mingle]

PCA should work better than gedmatch. Often people get poor fit in single population sharing. It doesn't mean they are close to populations they get. Take a look at Istrian Croat. He gets Serbs as number one on gedmatch but actually he isn't close to Serbian average at all, but between French/Germans and Serbs.

It depends on the calculator and the reference populations. There is no reference population for his group (Istrian Croats) so that's why he gets Serb as his top population. But the components (West Med, Baltic, etc.) should be accurate.

There is a Hungarian here who gets Hungarians as his top population on the K15 Oracle, but on the K15 PCA he's closer to Slovaks.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

It depends on the calculator and the reference populations. There is no reference population for his group (Istrian Croats) so that's why he gets Serb as his top population. But the components (West Med, Baltic, etc.) should be accurate.

There is a Hungarian here who gets Hungarians as his top population on the K15 Oracle, but on the K15 PCA he's closer to Slovaks.

I don't think you understand. He is radically far from Serbs, but does get them before Croats because he is southern shifted. But towards south west Europe not Balkan.

[Peterski]

I recall you saying that Austrians are around 50% Slavic before. But if they're "only" 25% Slavic

On DNA Land user Noricum (who is Austrian) scores 49% North Slavic (so 49% Belarusian-like DNA):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229802-Post-your-DNA-LAND-results

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h149/Christian_Unterberger/dnaland_zpstokddvoq.jpg

The same user on Eurogenes K15 PCA plots between Austrians and East Germans, check for yourself:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?273405-2019-Apricity-PCA&p=5735381&viewfull=1#post5735381

http://oi65.tinypic.com/103v09f.jpg

Rugevit our Belarusian member:

Population
North_Sea 19.42
Atlantic 17.97
Baltic 33.05
Eastern_Euro 21.02
West_Med 2.97
West_Asian 2.78
East_Med 0
Red_Sea 0
South_Asian 1.41
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0.14
Amerindian 0.07
Oceanian 0.28
Northeast_African 0.85
Sub-Saharan 0

Abscisse (x-axis): 454 pixel
Ordonnée (y-axis): 110 pixel

Noricum our Austrian member:

Population
North_Sea 21.34
Atlantic 23.18
Baltic 21.05
Eastern_Euro 14.07
West_Med 9.20
West_Asian 1.28
East_Med 8.00
Red_Sea 1.05
South_Asian 0.84
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0

Abscisse (x-axis): 376 pixel
Ordonnée (y-axis): 163 pixel

Noricum is more Northern-shifted than an average Austrian, I think. That's why he is slightly closer to East Germans.

However, in many calculators (like for example puntDNAL K15) Noricum is very close to average Austrian reference.

As for Rugevit, he scores 96% North Slavic and 4% North-West European on DNA Land.

=====

Noricum plots halfway between Rugevit and France.

Draw a straight line from Rugevit to France on that PCA, put a dot in the middle, and it will be close to Noricum.

=====

For comparison one Czech user's (Natalie) DNA Land results:

North Slavic 50%
NW Euro 38%
Italian* 6,5%
SW Euro 3,7%
Ambiguous 1,8%

*South/Central Euro, based on North Italians.

My DNA Land: 55% North Slavic, 36% NW Euro, 9% South**.

**Balkan and South/Central Euro.

[Mingle]

I don't think you understand. He is radically far from Serbs, but does get them before Croats because he is southern shifted. But towards south west Europe not Balkan.

What's your point? He gets Serbs as his top population simply because Istrians don't exist as a reference population. This says nothing in regards to how flawed GEDmatch is.

[Peterski]

He gets Serbs as his top population simply because Istrians don't exist as a reference population.

What GEDmatch kit are you talking about?

[Mingle]

For comparison one Czech user's (Natalie) DNA Land results:

North Slavic 50%
NW Euro 38%
Italian* 6,5%
SW Euro 3,7%
Ambiguous 1,8%

*South/Central Euro, based on North Italians.

My DNA Land: 55% North Slavic, 36% NW Euro, 9% South.

DNA Land is crap. I've seen an Austrian with 0% North Slavic on it.

Regarding Noricum, he seems to be more Slavic-shifted than average for an Austrian.

So again, how much Slavic do you think that Austria's neighbors are if Austria is 25% Slavic? Do you think they'd be similar?

[Peterski]

then would you say the same about Slovenes and Hungarians? How much Slavic are East Germans?

Slovenes, Hungarians, Czechs - they don't plot with Austrians and East Germans, but to the east of them.

And also to the north of them as well. Czechs have less of Southern European admixture than Austrians.


DNA Land is crap. I've seen an Austrian with 0% North Slavic on it.

I told you, Western Austrians (Vorarlberg and Tyrol) have 0% (or maybe just trace amounts) of Slavic ancestry.

So it is entirely possible that some Austrian scored 0% North Slavic on DNA Land, while another one got 49%.


DNA Land is crap

Entirely consistent with Eurogenes. If you make a PCA based on DNA Land, it will probably look similar to PCA based on Eurogenes K15.

Except that of coruse we don't have DNA Land population averages, so it will be hard to make a PCA (we can only use user results).

[Mingle]

What GEDmatch kit are you talking about?

I haven't seen his results myself, but he is plotted over here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?276176-Croatian-Eurogenes-K15-PCA-made-by-Jana&p=5772700&viewfull=1#post5772700

[Mingle]

I told you, Western Austrians (Vorarlberg and Tyrol) have 0% (or maybe just trace amounts) of Slavic ancestry.

So it is entirely possible that some Austrian scored 0% North Slavic on DNA Land, while another one got 49%.

It was actually 15% North Slavic, my bad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRnuA2nVvKo

Which region of Austria do you think he was from?

BTW, if Austrians are 25% Slavic, why did Noricum come out as 50% Slavic? Hard for me to believe such a diversity exists within Central & Eastern Austria.

[Peterski]

This is from Lukasz PCA (I have slightly different samples for many regions), Czechs / Hungarians / Slovenes do not plot with Austrians:

https://i.imgur.com/oYt6N0z.png

^^^ And these are Non-Tyrol Austrians (Non-Western Austrians). Western Austrians plot near Switzerland.

Czechs do not plot with Austrians or East Germans - they are more eastern-shifted. They plot halfway between South Poles and Saxony.

On GEDmatch if you run Czechs through Eurogenes K13/K15, ca. 1/2 of them are closer to South Poles, the other 1/2 to East Germans.

East German reference in Eurogenes K13/K15 are Germans from Leipzig.

[Mingle]

Slovenes, Hungarians, Czechs - they don't plot with Austrians and East Germans, but to the east of them.

And also to the north of them as well. Czechs have less of Southern European admixture than Austrians.

Czechs do plot northeast of them, but I don't think Slovenes and Hungarians do.



Could you fill in the blanks below?


Group - Slavic Percentage
Austrian - __
East German - __
Slovene - __
Czech - __
Hungarian - __

Austrian would be 25% if we go by J. Ketch's post in regards to how he modeled them on G25. But they would be 50% if we want to go by Noricum's DNA Land results. I'm just a bit confused on the whole thing so if you list some estimates for the populations above (in regards to their Slavic percentage), that'd be helpful.

[Peterski]

Czechs do plot northeast of them, but I don't think Slovenes and Hungarians do.

Czechs north-east of them, while Slovenes and Hungarians just east of them (without the "north-" part).


Hard for me to believe such a diversity exists within Central & Eastern Austria.

It does exist, and the same applies to Eastern and Central Germany (including Former East Germany).

In East Prussia alone you could find before WW2 people ranging from 100% Balto-Slavic to 100% Dutch.

And this is a smaller area than Austria.

=====

I'm talking with one German guy about genetics & stuff.

He told me that based on the results he saw, East Germans usually score between 30% and 60% "Eastern European" on 23andMe.

Mind you, this is not about Austrians but Eastern German.

How much of "Eastern European" do Czechs, Hungarians and Slovenes usually score on 23andMe? Do we have any examples?

[Mingle]

I'm talking with one German guy about genetics & stuff.

He told me that based on the results he saw, East Germans usually score between 30% and 60% "Eastern European" on 23andMe.

Mind you, this is not about Austrians but Eastern German.

How much of "Eastern European" do Czechs, Hungarians and Slovenes usually score on 23andMe? Do we have any examples?

No idea. Isn't it possible to find out how Slavic they are based on their Eurogenes results?

[Peterski]

This is what I was told by that guy:

https://i.imgur.com/hZmiDtV.jpg

[Mingle]

Hungarian: 23andMe (https://i.imgur.com/s3Z2nSM.png)

Hungarian: 23andMe (https://i.imgur.com/ZBEPkKz.png) | DNA Land (https://i.imgur.com/I9vznyr.png?1)

Hungarian (Szekely): 23andMe (https://i.imgur.com/tTie9Py.jpg)

Hungarian (Szekely): 23andMe, Ancestry DNA, MyHeritage DNA, Family Tree DNA (https://i.redd.it/bwd7itfvoq911.png)

Czech: 23andMe (http://i.imgur.com/c1YUlv3.png)

[Peterski]

No idea. Isn't it possible to find out how Slavic they are based on their Eurogenes results?

It is possible. But you have to model them as a mix of several groups.

Also do you want to check how much Proto-Slavic they are or how much West Slavic they are?

Because let's remember about chronology:

1) After 400 AD East Germanic tribes emigrate to invade Rome,

2) After 500 AD Proto-Slavic tribes move in from the east and assimilate remnants of locals,

3) After 900 AD Germans in the modern sense push east into West Slavic lands,

4) In ca. 1100-1700 German settlers mix with and assimilate many Slavs,

5) Remnants of Sorbs in Lusatia survived (were not assimilated) until today.

[Mingle]

It is possible. But you have to model them as a mix of several groups.

Also do you want to check how much Proto-Slavic they are or how much West Slavic they are?

Because let's remember about chronology:

1) After 400 AD East Germanic tribes emigrate to invade Rome,

2) After 500 AD Proto-Slavic tribes move in from the east and assimilate remnants of locals,

3) After 900 AD Germans once again push east into West Slavic lands,

4) In ca. 1100-1700 AD German settlers mix with and assimilate Slavs

5) Remnants of Sorbs in Lusatia survived (were not assimilated) until today.

Just Proto-Slavic. The Old West Slavs were probably genetically not much different from Proto-Slavs considering how close most Poles and Sorbs are to East Slavs.

[Mingle]

This is from Lukasz PCA (I have slightly different samples for many regions), Czechs / Hungarians / Slovenes do not plot with Austrians:

https://i.imgur.com/oYt6N0z.png

^^^ And these are Non-Tyrol Austrians (Non-Western Austrians). Western Austrians plot near Switzerland.

Czechs do not plot with Austrians or East Germans - they are more eastern-shifted. They plot halfway between South Poles and Saxony.

On GEDmatch if you run Czechs through Eurogenes K13/K15, ca. 1/2 of them are closer to South Poles, the other 1/2 to East Germans.

East German reference in Eurogenes K13/K15 are Germans from Leipzig.

The distance between Moldova and NE Romania on that map is crazy. My guess is it's because there are a limited number of Moldovan samples. Even though Moldovans are quite Slavic-admixed, I don't think the difference should be this extreme, especially when you compare this to the Eurogenes K15 PCA.

Central Romania being north of Northern Romania/Serbia/B&H is also something I never would have ever expected.

Do you have a link to his PCA by the way?

[Mr.G]

Czechs north-east of them, while Slovenes and Hungarians just east of them (without the "north-" part).



It does exist, and the same applies to Eastern and Central Germany (including Former East Germany).

In East Prussia alone you could find before WW2 people ranging from 100% Balto-Slavic to 100% Dutch.

And this is a smaller area than Austria.

=====

I'm talking with one German guy about genetics & stuff.

He told me that based on the results he saw, East Germans usually score between 30% and 60% "Eastern European" on 23andMe.

Mind you, this is not about Austrians but Eastern German.

How much of "Eastern European" do Czechs, Hungarians and Slovenes usually score on 23andMe? Do we have any examples?
Post #87 has his updated 23andMe.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?194387-My-23andme-results-are-finally-here-quite-typically-Hungarian-and-Danubian/page9

[Peterski]

I used averages from Eurogenes K15 spreadsheet.

I modeled Austrians, East Germans, South Poles and Poles as a mixture of:

Ukrainians Belgorod
Belorussians
Southwest Russians
Russians Smolensk
North Dutch
Danes
Swedes
North Italians

Here are the results:

[1] "distance%=2.5925"

Austrian = 47% East Slavic

Russian_Smolensk,45.8
North_Italian,32.8
Danish,20
Ukrainian_Belgorod,1.4

[1] "distance%=2.6401"

East_German = 37% East Slavic

North_Dutch,35.4
Ukrainian_Belgorod,22.4
North_Italian,19.2
Russian_Smolensk,14.8
Swedish,8.2

[1] "distance%=1.8812"

South_Polish = 76% East Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,44.2
Belorussian,32.2
Swedish,14.2
North_Italian,9.4

[1] "distance%=1.697"

Polish = 83% East Slavic

Belorussian,60.2
Southwest_Russian,13
Russian_Smolensk,9.8
North_Dutch,8
Swedish,6
North_Italian,3

[Peterski]

Another model, I removed Belorussians and Russians, and I used only Ukrainians Belgorod as Slavic reference.

So references used this time were:

Ukrainians Belgorod
North Dutch
Danes
Swedes
North Italians

Here are the new results:

[1] "distance%=3.0947"

Austrian = 44% East Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,44
North_Italian,33.2
Danish,22.8

[1] "distance%=2.682"

East_German = 37% East Slavic

North_Dutch,42.2
Ukrainian_Belgorod,37
North_Italian,18.6
Swedish,2.2

[1] "distance%=2.4903"

South_Polish = 75% East Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,75.4
Swedish,17.2
North_Italian,7.4

[1] "distance%=3.9798" [bad fit, something is missing - namely Baltic admixture]

Polish = 80% East Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,80.4
North_Dutch,12.8
Swedish,6.8

[Mr.G]

Another model, I removed Belorussians and Russians, and I used only Ukrainians Belgorod as Slavic reference.

So references used this time were:

Ukrainians Belgorod
North Dutch
Danes
Swedes
North Italians

[1] "distance%=3.0947"

Austrian = 44% Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,44
North_Italian,33.2
Danish,22.8

[1] "distance%=2.682"

East_German = 37% Slavic (no change)

North_Dutch,42.2
Ukrainian_Belgorod,37
North_Italian,18.6
Swedish,2.2

[1] "distance%=2.4903"

South_Polish = 75% Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,75.4
Swedish,17.2
North_Italian,7.4

[1] "distance%=3.9798"

Polish = 80% Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,80.4
North_Dutch,12.8
Swedish,6.8

Awesome. Can you model Hungarians for Slavic please?

[Peterski]

I added Austrian results - surprisingly more Slavic than East Germans (at least the ones used in K15 Spreadsheet).


Awesome. Can you model Hungarians for Slavic please?

Okay.

[Mingle]

That model will not work for Hungarians, because they also have Balkan.

I will add Albanians to references. And some Ugro-Finnic as well maybe.

Some Greek Islanders or South/South-Central Italian would be a better reference sample since Albos have minor Slavic admixture.

If you use a Southern European population to model Poles with (in addition to the ones you used above), then would it come out to 0%?


I added Austrian results - surprisingly more Slavic than East Germans (at least the ones used in K15 Spreadsheet).

I guess those from Northeast Germany (e.g. Pomerania) would probably be more Slavic. The East German reference sample is from Central-East Germany. But yeah, still surprising.

[Cumansky]

The distance between Moldova and NE Romania on that map is crazy. My guess is it's because there are a limited number of Moldovan samples. Even though Moldovans are quite Slavic-admixed, I don't think the difference should be this extreme, especially when you compare this to the Eurogenes K15 PCA.

Central Romania being north of Northern Romania/Serbia/B&H is also something I never would have ever expected.

Do you have a link to his PCA by the way?

Why not you will expect?

Vlachs in NW Romania did not originate in Romania much south, there is also other migrants to Romania that move average south.

[Mingle]

Why not you will expect?

Vlachs in NW Romania did not originate in Romania much south, there is also other migrants to Romania that move average south.

NW Romania's position wasn't surprising. What I was surprised by was how far north Central Romania was.

[Peterski]

Okay, some new models:

[1] "distance%=2.4745"

East_German = 39% Balto-Slavic

North_Dutch,42.4
Ukrainian_Belgorod,36.2
North_Italian,14.8
French_Basque,4.2
Kargopol_Russian,2.4

[1] "distance%=1.1591"

Polish = 82% Balto-Slavic

Belorussian,66.2
Swedish,13.6
Ukrainian_Belgorod,9.8
Kargopol_Russian,6
French_Basque,2.4
Sardinian,2

[1] "distance%=1.0936"

Austrian = 47% Balto-Slavic

Russian_Smolensk,34
Danish,23.8
South_Italian,16.8
Ukrainian_Belgorod,13.2
French_Basque,11.6
Irish,0.6

=====

And two models for Hungarians:

1st (without Finns):

[1] "distance%=3.1594" [not a very good fit]

Hungarian

North_Dutch,30
Belorussian,22.6
Central_Greek,19
Ukrainian_Belgorod,18.8
North_Italian,5.2
East_Finnish,4.4

2nd (with Finns):

[1] "distance%=2.9395" [fit improves with Finns]

Hungarian

Belorussian,21.6
Central_Greek,19.8
North_Dutch,16.6
Finnish,15.8
Ukrainian_Belgorod,14
French,12.2

[Mingle]

^^^ Does adding Finnish improve the fit for any other Central European populations? Or is it just with Hungarians?

[Cumansky]

Another model, I removed Belorussians and Russians, and I used only Ukrainians Belgorod as Slavic reference.

So references used this time were:

Ukrainians Belgorod
North Dutch
Danes
Swedes
North Italians

Here are the new results:

[1] "distance%=3.0947"

Austrian = 44% East Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,44
North_Italian,33.2
Danish,22.8

[1] "distance%=2.682"

East_German = 37% East Slavic

North_Dutch,42.2
Ukrainian_Belgorod,37
North_Italian,18.6
Swedish,2.2

[1] "distance%=2.4903"

South_Polish = 75% East Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,75.4
Swedish,17.2
North_Italian,7.4

[1] "distance%=3.9798" [bad fit, something is missing - namely Baltic admixture]

Polish = 80% East Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,80.4
North_Dutch,12.8
Swedish,6.8

Peterski how much time do you have for this propaganda creating? This not how we model South Polish..


South Polish @ 1.0811

52.8 Baltic (Latvians)
21.2 Pannonian and Bessarabian (Hungarians, Moldovans)
13.2 Balkan (Serbs)
7.4 South Balkan (Albanians)
3.2 Northwest European (Germans)
1.4 North African (Moroccans)
0.8 Central Asian (Uzbeks)

[Peterski]

^^^ Does adding Finnish improve the fit for any other Central European populations? Or is it just with Hungarians?

Just with Hungarians. I also added Mari but they were not picked up as you can see.

But still something is missing there, fit should be closer to 2.0 to be actually good.

[Creoda]

Austrians by Germanics, Slavs, Celts and Paleo Balkanites/Meds, impressive distances here.

https://i.postimg.cc/5NmYm0w2/austrians.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/CLwddgWT/austrians2.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/8cNkFRXB/austrians3.jpg

East Germans

https://i.postimg.cc/SNKqwNBs/east-germans.jpg

Hungarians

https://i.postimg.cc/vHDF02nx/hungarians.jpg

Slovenians

https://i.postimg.cc/W4GQdQBC/slovenians.jpg

[Peterski]

Totally for fun, I added Hallstatt Celt DA112 and Neolithic GAC RISE1168.

DA112 - https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?276388-Hallstatt-Celt-DA112-850-700-BC

RISE1168 - https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?276558-Neolithic-GAC-Farmers-on-GEDmatch

And you know what... ??? DA112 greatly improved the fit for Hungarians:

[1] "distance%=1.4371"

Hungarian

Ukrainian_Belgorod,30.6
Hallstatt_DA112_Celtic,29.2
Central_Greek,19
North_Dutch,15.6
East_Finnish,5.6

It also revealed, what type of ancestry causes the difference between Polish (4% Celtic) and South Polish (25% Celtic):

[1] "distance%=0.7567"

South_Polish

Ukrainian_Belgorod,62.8
Hallstatt_DA112_Celtic,25.2
Belorussian,7
North_Dutch,3.4
Central_Greek,1.4
Neolithic_RISE1168_GAC,0.2

[1] "distance%=1.0266"

Polish

Belorussian,64.8
North_Dutch,11
Ukrainian_Belgorod,9.4
Kargopol_Russian,8
Hallstatt_DA112_Celtic,4
Neolithic_RISE1168_GAC,2.8

Also funny thing, East German scores Neolithic_GAC_RISE1168, but not DA112:

[1] "distance%=0.7904"

East_German

North_Dutch,41.4
Ukrainian_Belgorod,38.4
Neolithic_RISE1168_GAC,10.8
French,6.2
Central_Greek,1.8
Tatar,1.4

[Dick]

Another model, I removed Belorussians and Russians, and I used only Ukrainians Belgorod as Slavic reference.

So references used this time were:

Ukrainians Belgorod
North Dutch
Danes
Swedes
North Italians

Here are the new results:

[1] "distance%=3.0947"

Austrian = 44% East Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,44
North_Italian,33.2
Danish,22.8

[1] "distance%=2.682"

East_German = 37% East Slavic

North_Dutch,42.2
Ukrainian_Belgorod,37
North_Italian,18.6
Swedish,2.2

[1] "distance%=2.4903"

South_Polish = 75% East Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,75.4
Swedish,17.2
North_Italian,7.4

[1] "distance%=3.9798" [bad fit, something is missing - namely Baltic admixture]

Polish = 80% East Slavic

Ukrainian_Belgorod,80.4
North_Dutch,12.8
Swedish,6.8

I'm not sure if this would mean anything regarding your experiment but I left out the Balkan Slav countries to see how much NE Slavic I would get on Global 25 Nmonte.



"distance%=2.2362"



German_Austrian,43.8
Polish_Belarusian_Ukrainian,29
Italian_South_&_Sicilian,20.4
Italian_North_&_Central,5.6
Estonian_Latvian_Lithuanian,0.6
Sardinian,0.4
Portuguese_Spanish,0.2

[Peterski]

East Germans

https://i.postimg.cc/SNKqwNBs/east-germans.jpg

Makes sense, you got 39% Slavic for East Germans using Global25, similar to what I got using K15 averages. We can agree on 40% here.

Which is what I was "always" saying (that East Germans are ca. 1/2 Slavic on average with a range from 1/4 to 3/4 depending on person).

[Mingle]

Austrians by Germanics, Slavs, Celts and Paleo Balkanites/Meds, impressive distances here.

https://i.postimg.cc/5NmYm0w2/austrians.jpg

I used the exact same components over here, but got somewhat different results. Weird.

https://i.imgur.com/xOSxQ1y.png

The Balkans BA score surpassed that of Medieval Germany. And this is a slightly better fit as well.

[Creoda]

I used the exact same components over here, but got somewhat different results. Weird.

https://i.imgur.com/xOSxQ1y.png

The Balkans BA score surpassed that of Medieval Germany. And this is a slightly better fit as well.
I filtered out individuals deviating 25% or more. It's more or less the same anyway, enough to say that Austrians are exceedingly mixed, which is obvious from their positions on plots.

[Creoda]

My Celto-Germanic-Slavic-Med mix, for fun

https://i.postimg.cc/W1zJ5VpL/me2.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/jd55bhpy/me.jpg

Just a further demonstration that the Irish aren't 'Celts'.

[Mingle]

Czech and Slovak over here, didn't expect this level of difference:

https://i.imgur.com/FdMiwPX.png

Croat and Serb:

https://i.imgur.com/IV7emq0.png

Here are Serbs when you replace Hallstatt with Anatolia BA:

https://i.imgur.com/n5exwAP.png

Just for fun, Bulgaria and Montenegro (without Anatolia BA):

https://i.imgur.com/stEgKBy.png

Bulgaria and Montenegro (with Anatolia BA):

https://i.imgur.com/93kOdcr.png

[Creoda]

Slightly better fits here with some extra groups

https://i.postimg.cc/HLsqRScy/extra.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/MTnhKvYZ/extra2.jpg

Balkans BA & Hungary BA - Meds/Paleo Balkanites
Hungary IA - Half Hun by the looks of it

[Mingle]

Slightly better fits here with some extra groups

https://i.postimg.cc/HLsqRScy/extra.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/MTnhKvYZ/extra2.jpg

Balkans BA & Hungary BA - Meds/Paleo Balkanites
Hungary IA - Half Hun by the looks of it

For Serbs, it has two blank spaces. Since you can use 6 references, I'd replace Halstatt Bylany with Anatolia BA and I'd also replace Hungary IA with Italian Bergamo.

[Creoda]

For Serbs, it has two blank spaces. Since you can use 6 references, I'd replace Halstatt Bylany with Anatolia BA and I'd also replace Hungary IA with Italian Bergamo.
Good call.

https://i.postimg.cc/VkGwfQcR/extra3.jpg

[Peterski]

In Global25 nMonte runner you have Hallstatt Bylany but is it DA111, DA112 or an average of both?

Can you also use individual samples with that tool instead of averages?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

What's your point? He gets Serbs as his top population simply because Istrians don't exist as a reference population. This says nothing in regards to how flawed GEDmatch is.

My point is that single population sharing is garbage, you do not need to be particulary close to it, just closer than to any other reference. Mixed mode is decent.
Istrian Croat is very close to some northeast Italian samples on PCA (not generic N. Italian) because he has no west asian admixture at all, which is incredible.

In his case single population sharing isn't informative, because he is too different from any reference population to get close fit. But PCA is.

[Dick]

In Global25 nMonte runner you have Hallstatt Bylany but is it DA111, DA112 or an average of both?

Can you also use individual samples with that tool instead of averages?


DA112 and 111 can be separated if you use R program

1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"

Hallstatt_BylanyA112 - 2.900379
Hungary_IA:IR1 - 3.661612
Anatolia_IA:MA2198 - 3.721760
Nordic_IA:RISE174 - 4.419502
England_IA:L-I0789 - 4.455087
Balkans_IA:I5769 - 4.586273
England_IA:M1489 - 4.613220
Hallstatt_BylanyA111 - 4.620963



"2. FULL TABLE nMONTE"

"distance%=1.6138"


Balkans_IA,33
Baltic_IA,28.8
Hallstatt_Bylany,24.2
Udegram_IA,7.6
Anatolia_IA,6.2
Katelai_IA,0.2

[Suinthila]

Croats are Germans. They can sleep peacefully now.