Anyone trying to learn Welsh? And why?

[Barreldriver]

Figured it time to start a thread devoted to those of us who are trying to learn Welsh so we can share some tips for learning and explore why we chose to do as such.

I first chose to do as such because of general curiosity but then found that my most strong Y-DNA match was with a Welsh family (not surprised as my family originated near to where the Battle of Hatfield Chase took place between Cadwallon ap Cadfan, Penda and Edwin) so that made me even more curious to discover the language that may have been spoken by my earliest lineal forefathers (as someone who was raised in a patrilinear home I am always interested in exploring that root).

I've always struggled with vowels, mostly on when to alter the pronunciation of y and the infamous ll.

Found an interesting page that goes into vowel pronunciations, consonant pronunciations, dipthongs and circumflexes:

http://www.go4awalk.com/fell-facts/welsh-language-pronunciation.php

For practicing pronunciation I've found that reviewing the lyrics to See-oh Gahn helps.

First section:

Huna blentyn ar fy mynwes
Clyd a chynnes ydyw hon;
Breichiau mam sy'n dynn amdanat,
Cariad mam sy dan fy mron;
Ni cha' dim amharu'th gyntun,
Ni wna undyn â thi gam;
Huna'n dawel, annwyl blentyn,
Huna'n fwyn ar fron dy fam.

My understanding of the pronunciation (correct if wrong):

Heena blentuhn ar fuh muhnoo-es
Cleed a shuhnnes eeduh-oo hon
Brayshee-eye mam suh’n dan fuh mron
Caree-eyed mam suh dan fuh mron
Nee sha’ deem amharee’th guhnteen
Nee oona uhnduhn ah thee gam
Heena’n dowel, annoo-uhl blentuhn
Heena’n foo-uhn ar fron duh fam.

I also recommend Colin and Cumberland, learned some lovely insults. :D Mochyn Budr! :D

[Albion]

I've thought about it on the past but there's not as much material to do so as with the major languages. I also started wondering what the point would be apart from out of just interest.

[Ivo Arandur]

I used to and at some point most probably will again...I'm in love with all Celtic languages - have learned a bit of Welsh, Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Breton...unfortunately, I don't have the patience nor the time to actually learn any of them right now but will one day...hey I'm allowed to dream, aren't I? :D

[Dacul]

I would love to learn some celtic language,because are so awsome.

[Albion]

I doubt most people have seen written Welsh, let alone heard the language.

Here is 'Newyddion' (the news) in Welsh for those of you that what to see what it is like.

0Q6elB6bTzE

And an article in Welsh:


Carwyn Jones: Lloegr 'heb lais' wrth drafod dyfodol y DG

Nid oes gan Loegr lais ei hun wrth drafod dyfodol y Deyrnas Gyfun, yn ôl Prif Weinidog Cymru.

Roedd Carwyn Jones yn rhoi tystiolaeth i Aelodau Seneddol a ddylai confensiwn fod ynglŷn â chyfansoddiad y DG.

Mae wedi dweud y byddai confensiwn cyfansoddiadol neu ddadl yn golygu y gallai Lloegr gyfrannu at y drafodaeth.

"Does dim dwywaith nad oes gan Loegr lais ei hun," meddai wrth Bwyllgor Diwygio Gwleidyddol a Chyfansoddiadol Tŷ'r Cyffredin yng Nghaerdydd.

'Yn debygol'

"Rwy'n credu ei bod yn debygol ... fod pobl yn deall bod y Prif Weinidog yn siarad ar ran Lloegr yn achos rhai materion.

"Ond rwy'n credu na allwn barhau â chyfansoddiad lle mae Senedd Llundain, os yw'n dymuno hynny, yn gallu diddymu'r gweinyddiaethau datganoledig o fewn misoedd."

Ychwanegodd nad oedd hyn yn iawn o ran democratiaeth ac nad oedd yn boblogaidd yng Nghymru na'r Alban.

Wedyn mae Mr Jones yn teithio i'r Senedd yn Llundain lle mae'n galw eto am gonfensiwn cyfansoddiadol.

Dywedodd Mr Jones ei fod am "ddiogelu'r DG" ond bod rhaid i'r cyfansoddiad "addasu".

'Pryder'

Ychwanegodd y dylai confensiwn cyfansoddiadol ddechrau cyn i'r Alban gynnal pleidlais annibyniaeth yn 2014.

"Fy mhryder mwyaf yw y bydd y DG yn dechrau colli rhai aelodau," meddai.

Yn y cyfamser, mae arweinydd Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, wedi ysgrifennu at Mr Jones a dweud yr hoffai fod yn rhan o gonfensiwn cyfansoddiadol.

Ond ychwanegodd na fyddai hyn yn bosib cyn i'r Alban gynnal pleidlais annibyniaeth.

Dywedodd arweinydd y Ceidwadwyr yn y Cynulliad, Andrew R T Davies, ei fod yn erbyn confensiwn.

"Yn fy marn, mae pobl yn ysu am i wleidyddion fwrw ymlaen a gwneud eu gwaith," meddai.



Google translation into English:


Carwyn Jones: England 'without voice' when discussing the future of the UK

England does not have its own voice when discussing the future of the United Kingdom, according to Chief Minister.

I was giving evidence to MPs and the convention should be about the composition of the UK.

He has said that the constitutional convention or debate means that England could contribute to the discussion.

"There is no doubt that England's own voice," he told the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee of the House of Commons in Cardiff.

' Likely '

"I think it is likely that people understand that ... the Chief Minister was speaking on behalf of England for some issues.

"But I think we can not continue to the constitution where Parliament, if it wishes, can repeal the devolved administrations within months."

He added that this did not in terms of democracy and it was not popular in Wales or Scotland.

Mr. Jones then traveled to London where Parliament is calling for a constitutional convention.

Mr Jones said that he wanted to "protect the UK" but that the constitution "modification".

' P ryder '

He added that the constitutional convention before the start of Scottish independence ballot in 2014.

"My biggest concern is that the UK is starting to lose some members," he said.

In the meantime, the leader of Plaid Cymru AM Leanne Wood has written to Mr Jones said he would like to be part of a constitutional convention.

But he added that this would not be possible before the Scottish independence ballot.

The leader of the Conservatives in the Assembly, Andrew RT Davies, he was against the convention.

"In my opinion, people are desperate for politicians to get on and do their job," he said.


I agree with him - England needs a separate voice when discussing the future of the UK, not just the UK parliament speaking for it. A shame it takes an MP from another nation to highlight this. :rolleyes2:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newyddion/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cymru/

I pick up the Welsh channels when the weather is good, S4C broadcasts entirely in Welsh. I've also been there and seen the road signs, but no one spoke Welsh to me like the English say they do (they only speak Welsh to the English to piss us off apparently. :rolleyes: )

[Dacul]

Hear that r,is only kept pronounced like that in albanian and some iranian dialects,is kept like that from proto-indo-european times.

[Albion]

I've always struggled with vowels, mostly on when to alter the pronunciation of y and the infamous ll.


'Ll' is a bit like 'hl' - like the town 'Llandudno' is called 'Lan-dud-no' by the English but in Welsh it sounds more like 'Hlan-did-no' if I remember right.
'Ll' is very throaty, it's not really a sound English makes.

Oh, and don't forget that 'dd' at the end of words is often like English 'f' - the name 'Daffydd' (David) for example is more like 'Daff-if'.

People attempting to revive Cumbric (the former Celtic dialect of NW England before Northumbria expanded) are trying to make it more phonetic.

[Graham]

Find it interesing Welsh. Due to place names outside Wales. That have a connection to the extinct Dialects of Cumbric etc..

Like we have Torphichen & linlithgow.

[Barreldriver]

'Ll' is a bit like 'hl' - like the town 'Llandudno' is called 'Lan-dud-no' by the English but in Welsh it sounds more like 'Hlan-did-no' if I remember right.
'Ll' is very throaty, it's not really a sound English makes.

Oh, and don't forget that 'dd' at the end of words is often like English 'f' - the name 'Daffydd' (David) for example is more like 'Daff-if'.

People attempting to revive Cumbric (the former Celtic dialect of NW England before Northumbria expanded) are trying to make it more phonetic.

YIPPIE! :D That'll be interestin' to study indeed. :p

[Albion]

YIPPIE! :D That'll be interestin' to study indeed. :p

Just learn Welsh for the time being then write it phonetically = Neo-Cumbric. :D

It's only ever going to be a hobby language, I'd perhaps learn it so I could understand more Welsh and out of interest (I'm in the NW).

[Barreldriver]

Just learn Welsh for the time being then write it phonetically = Neo-Cumbric. :D


That's what I try to do as Welsh phonetics I still struggle with, when writing in Welsh I just write how I'd say it. :p

[Barreldriver]

I wish they'd resurrect what was spoken in South Yorkshire, me agnatic lineal folks originated near to Hatfield where the Battle of Hatfield Chase was fought then moved into the East Riding at a later date. So Brigantian? :P

[Leadchucker]

I've thought about it on the past but there's not as much material to do so as with the major languages. I also started wondering what the point would be apart from out of just interest.

Same with, I know no one who speaks it other than some at the Philadelphia Welsh Society. I know a few words and have a couple CDs with Welsh langage lessons, but other than irritate my wife there's little use for it here. Still, I'm proud of my Welsh heritage, fly the Red Dragon on occasions and have made some love spoons in the Welsh style.

[Albion]

That's what I try to do as Welsh phonetics I still struggle with, when writing in Welsh I just write how I'd say it. :p

When the Anglo-Saxons pushed into the Midlands and SW they broke up the old British speaking area. The British language in its isolated Cornish, Welsh and Rheged (North west England) enclaves then developed into Cornish, Welsh and Cumbric.
Some people consider Cumbric to be so similar to Old Welsh that it is actually a dialect. Cumbric wasn't just spoken in Cumbria but across much of Northern England and Southern Scotland - Y Hen Ogledd "The Old North". This area included Cumbria, Lancashire and Cheshire (Rheged), South and West Yorkshire (Elmet), Dumfries and Galloway (Strathclyde).

Gradually the Angles kept creeping in via the passes through the Pennines at Alston and the Aire Gap and south up along the Trent.
The last Cumbric speakers in England were mountain dwellers - shepherds, that is until the Norse arrived who liked hill country just as much as they did. Cumbric was probably last spoken in Southern Scotland, but its counting system survived in much of Northern England into the present day.

The Brigantes just ended up speaking Cumbric.

[Albion]

Same with, I know no one who speaks it other than some at the Philadelphia Welsh Society. I know a few words and have a couple CDs with Welsh langage lessons, but other than irritate my wife there's little use for it here. Still, I'm proud of my Welsh heritage, fly the Red Dragon on occasions and have made some love spoons in the Welsh style.

The Welsh are often the forgotten Celtic nation outside the British Isles. Theirs is a rich and beautiful culture though, it is a shame to overlook it for the much over-hyped Gaelic identities of Ireland and Scotland.

[Albion]

The Cornish were cut off early from the other Britons which enabled their language to diverge quicker. There's also survived into the Victorian era and so was a fully fledged language by then whereas Cumbric died out by the 1100s at the latest.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Britain_peoples_circa_600.svg

The first place the Anglo-Saxons took was Kent (the ultimate homeland of my paternal ancestors as it happened). Here they were lacking in numbers in the early conquest so quickly absorbed the original population rather than solely pushing them out. That ultimately may be why a lot of British place names including 'Kent' itself survived.

[Barreldriver]

A bit of an exercise, figured I'd write out how I think I ought to say somethin' in Welsh 'n see if it's correct or if there's a better way to say it.

I'll use the word/name Cadwallon (I used to use this as a screen name) -

Cadwallon broken down into Cad-oo-a-hlon when pronounced?

[Albion]

A bit of an exercise, figured I'd write out how I think I ought to say somethin' in Welsh 'n see if it's correct or if there's a better way to say it.

I'll use the word/name Cadwallon (I used to use this as a screen name) -

Cadwallon broken down into Cad-oo-a-hlon when pronounced?

It looks right to me (I only know a few basics though). Have you heard of S4C? It's the Welsh-language TV channel, I think they do some sort of online courses and you could probably watch a few programmes online once you get better to keep yourself fluent.

[Comte Arnau]

It's the most spoken Celtic language and there are several Welsh-Catalan websites and dictionaries online. If I ever decide to learn a Celtic language, these two reasons would make my option clear, unless personal reasons made me choose Gaelic.

[Albion]

If I went to live in Wales I'd probably learn it out of respect for the culture. I suppose that'd make me a damn site better than a lot of Welsh natives who never bother anyway. :rolleyes:

[Óttar]

People attempting to revive Cumbric (the former Celtic dialect of NW England before Northumbria expanded) are trying to make it more phonetic.
:rolleyes2:

I agree with that BBC documentary about language loss, when the narrator says, 'I'm all for preserving languages, but once you're dead, that's it!' He was referring to Cornish. I am also very skeptical of the revival of Manx (Gaelic), which sounds very close to Irish Gaelic, they should just switch to the standard of that tongue. This Cumbric I haven't heard of until now, and I think it most sensible to consign it to the graveyard of history once and for all where it belongs.

I think the Scots, Irish, Welsh and others have a right to want to preserve their culture, but up to a certain point it becomes a ridiculous 'Ten Little Kingdoms' scenario.

[Albion]

I agree with that BBC documentary about language loss, when the narrator says, 'I'm all for preserving languages, but once you're dead, that's it!' He was referring to Cornish. I am also very skeptical of the revival of Manx (Gaelic), which sounds very close to Irish Gaelic, they should just switch to the standard of that tongue.

Well all three Gaelic languages could really be considered as just strong dialects of the same language.


This Cumbric I haven't heard of until now, and I think it most sensible to consign it to the graveyard of history once and for all where it belongs.

Well as I said, it's probably nice for some people as a sort of hobby language but I don't want to see some weird Celtic movement in NW England all of a sudden. I suppose people who want to learn Cumbric could learn Welsh really since it is often considered a dialect of Old Welsh.

[Graham]

Cumbric can be found in the poem Y Gododdin.


Comparison of Scottish Gaelic and Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Scottish_Gaelic_and_Irish)

[Zorg]

I was gonna learn it as a homage to my Welsh Quaker ancestry but, really it's just way too impractical.

[Ivo Arandur]

I was gonna learn it as a homage to my Welsh Quaker ancestry but, really it's just way too impractical.

Practical's boring :coffee:


p.s. i just started learning Welsh again :D

[Mistel]

Sorry, I'm digging up an old thread! I lived in Wales from the age of 7 until I left to go to university when I was 22. I studied Welsh to the age of 14, after which I went to an English school over the border in Shropshire. I only remember basic phrases in Welsh. If I moved back to Wales I would take it up again and do a language course. At university I knew an American girl who had started learning Welsh in the States and then came to my university (Aberystwyth). She fell in love with the language and place. Now she speaks it fluently I think.

[Albion]

Uhtred is. As tempting as it is, I don't think I'd put the effort in. A part of me also wants to learn Gaelic to connect to my Irish heritage and sort of begin a rapprochement with the Irish...

[Smaug]

Uhtred is. As tempting as it is, I don't think I'd put the effort in. A part of me also wants to learn Gaelic to connect to my Irish heritage and sort of begin a rapprochement with the Irish...

Yes. I still want to post that quick Welsh course I promissed, some English members seem to be interested, how about you?

[Albion]

Yes. I still want to post that quick Welsh course I promissed, some English members seem to be interested, how about you?

I'm interested, I just don't know if I'd put the effort in, I have tonnes of other stuff to be getting on with. Post it anyway, even if no members here view it it will be seen by more people on the greater internet.