My grandpa was a nazi ridiculousy

[Svarog]

So, a thread dedicated to a unique phenomena I found on each and every board I posted, no matter are they strictly National Socialist boards, anthropology boards or simply suits and ties 'white nationalist' whiner boards SF style, it's everywhere and this is not a complain or a critic of those people, just a general wonder

We're all well backed up on the History of Europe 1920's-1950's period I am sure and of course, even on sport forums discussions about that will be lead and it cannot be helped not that I would want to as I enjoy them as any other person around, there is a thing that annoys me so damn much that made me give up on all of those discussions and eventually make one post related to subject and bail with the 'unsubscribe from the thread' option, and that is - who is the biggest 'nazi' around (I hate using a term nazi myself as it means nothing, but in the contest of the thread it suits it well).

This is never coming from any Germans, but from other European 'nationalists' trying to prove their worth or whatever by claiming how big nazis they were back in the days, mostly, their grandparents, of course, each and everyone's grandfather fought in some of the SS divisions, were even some officers or maybe a general, sometimes knew Hitler himself even, I mean, c'mon, as if people have lack of national pride so they take it in the other nations who were or are big and try to connect themselves with them to make them look more important, what's with that but seriously? It is not cool and even when it is true there is nothing to brag about, just a fact or a family detail which I find rather lame to use to brag on forums so you make yourself look important, especially because it is utterly stupid, both of my grandparents fought in the WWII but hey, was not me, and no they did NOT fight for Germany or the Reich.

Also ridiculous that people are proud they were part of some SS division which soldiers died in an unmarked graves in the Russian front just because Hitler was so desperate and let just anyone in the SS division, so no, you're country is not uber cool for some minor SS division they had, actually, I find it a collaboration as for me Germany was an invader, and no matter how much I love other Europeans, try to step on my land, tell me your the boss around and ask me to work for you, am gonna be the first to put a bullet between your eyes and same works for the Third Reich, I would never be proud if my grandparents fought for Germany instead of their own country, and I am not buying crap Aryan Europe for a greater good, I do well on my own with my own.

And for you guys, my grandparents fought in SS or my country had SS divisions, these guys did too:


SS 1 (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BtRYYa2A_rs/RsoRqeGRkRI/AAAAAAAAAH8/FS-vqYGHZ8M/s320/turkmenistan.jpg)

And many other muds including Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, India, African niggers (not sure for the SS tho) etc

I just don't get it..

[Loki]

Also ridiculous that people are proud they were part of some SS division which soldiers died in an unmarked graves in the Russian front ...

I would be ashamed if my relatives had fought on the eastern front, killing millions upon millions of Russian peasants in a true ethnic cleansing adventure.

[SwordoftheVistula]

I guess it's just the general fascination with the 3rd reich, especially amongst racial nationalists.

I see this in the reverse amongst all the left wing and 'respectable conservative' sites and media: everyone claims to have an uncle that intervened in a fight on behalf of a black guy while traveling in the south [-eastern USA], a grandfather that fled or was persecuted by the nazis, a great-grandfather that got beat up or denied a job for being Catholic, or a great-great-grandmother that was 'native american' (usually 'Cherokee', since that is often the only tribe they have heard of).

[Brännvin]

Yes but I open an exception for those brave men of Waffen SS that during the Winter War in Finland fought bravely against the total annihilation.

[EWtt]

Yes but I open an exception for those brave men of Waffen SS that during the Winter War in Finland fought bravely against the total annihilation.

The same exception goes for us.

Estonian and Latvian SS soldiers didn't fight for any Grossdeutschland, but for our independence and freedom from the Soviets who had already accomplished so many atrocities here during the first occupation. One may say that's naive they fought with the lesser evil hoping to regain independence, but they had already witnessed the Soviets having their own "ethnic cleansing adventure" here before the German occupation and after it - when thousands continued fighting in the woods.

[Äike]

What about the Estonian Waffen SS? They were on Estonian soil, on the Narwa front and did defend their people and land from the Red Plague.

They did fight very bravely, because the USSR had already sent Estonians to Siberia in very large numbers. In animal wagons. I would be a brave soldier too, if some regime that sent all my family members to Siberia, is trying to regain control over my country again. I would do everything to stop it.

To the members of the Estonian Waffen SS, Soviet Union meant death of Estonians, that's why they were so brave. The only people who got murdered by them, were Soviet soldiers.

[Svarog]

That all have it's points but you're missing the point of the thread, SwordoftheVistula got it and put it well, the whole point is why people can't be proud of what they are rather than be ashamed of what they are not? Because, when people make up such crap that is the logical conclusion that leads into 'wannabe' degradation of it's own identity

[Svarog]

I would be ashamed if my relatives had fought on the eastern front, killing millions upon millions of Russian peasants in a true ethnic cleansing adventure.

Well, exactly, and that is exactly why I am not buying Hitler's Europe for the greater good of the Aryan Europe. Germans and anyone else is/can be my friend as long as they stay in their own lands same as I will stay in mine and won't go in yours, once you show pretensions on my territories you cannot be my friends but an enemy no matter what.

[SwordoftheVistula]

There's no question the SS themselves were quite brave, over 1/3 of those who joined were killed in battle, and they were often given the toughest/most unpleasant tasks, especially the non-German volunteers who were often given anti-partisan assignments.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Germans and anyone else is/can be my friend as long as they stay in their own lands same as I will stay in mine and won't go in yours, once you show pretensions on my territories you cannot be my friends but an enemy no matter what.

Serbia at that time occupied a number of other lands (Croatia & Bosnia) as well as lands in which Germans and Hungarians had lived in for centuries. That's why people from those populations were so eager to support the Axis.

[Svarog]

I guess it's just the general fascination with the 3rd reich, especially amongst racial nationalists.

I see this in the reverse amongst all the left wing and 'respectable conservative' sites and media: everyone claims to have an uncle that intervened in a fight on behalf of a black guy while traveling in the south [-eastern USA], a grandfather that fled or was persecuted by the nazis, a great-grandfather that got beat up or denied a job for being Catholic, or a great-great-grandmother that was 'native american' (usually 'Cherokee', since that is often the only tribe they have heard of).

Now, this I also know, typical liberal shit, result of the detailed propaganda of putting a collective blame on the members of the white race and trying to make us feel ashamed of what we are, so people are buying it and to make themselves 'good white men' (such a movie term) they make up such crap, I, who have touch with Americans on internet mostly have met two persons claiming to have native Americans in their heritage line and I was like, how the hell did you calculate that? :confused:

You proved my points perfectly, people are ashamed of what they are and make up crap that degrade themselves just to be part of smth, in your case liberal shit of rightness, in mine SS racial ideals etc as long as we continue acting like that we're gonna be judged for whatever we do, hell no, yes, my ancestors slaughter Turks, muslims and everyone else that tried to take our territories and I am damn proud of that as bending over is not what we should do to anyone, and no I do not have a Turk in my heritage line nor I support homosexual pride, piss off retards, no fake smiles :mad:

I hate our society... and am proud I am considered as a reject and hated by the same, otherwise, there'd be smth wrong with me too I'm sure.

[Svarog]

Serbia at that time occupied a number of other lands (Croatia & Bosnia) as well as lands in which Germans and Hungarians had lived in for centuries. That's why people from those populations were so eager to support the Axis.

Don't be ridiculous, but I am not interested in such discussion, that's not the point of the thread anyway.

[Loki]

Well, exactly, and that is exactly why I am not buying Hitler's Europe for the greater good of the Aryan Europe.

As far as this is concerned, it is ironic that the majority of the 10 million Russian civilians that were slaughtered by the Nazis came from some of the fairest pigmented areas on mainland Europe, undoubtedly the blondest and purest IE areas of Russia. In a sense this advance considerably weakened European racial integrity.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/guntherpigmenteur.jpg

[Svarog]

Well, when it comes to that, racial purity meant shit to Hitler, he killed whites and had non-whites in his troops, and anti-Slavic propaganda was just a tool to boost moral of his soldiers as his biggest enemy Were Slavic Russians, read Goebbels's diaries - it explains everything, on one side he have Slavic allies and on the other biggest enemy, propaganda works that way, and in the end Russians were the one to enter the Berlin, it's not a secret Reich and Soviets had a non-aggression pact, and even make borders of Europe in advance with precise maps who is gonna take what and split other country's territories before everything even started, everyone knew that is not gonna last tho, looking at Stalin and Hitler's ambitions, it was just a question who will attack first and when.

Europe just could not stand two of such personalities leading two stronger countries at a time

[Brännvin]

In addition, Latvian and Estonian Waffen-SS units were not responsible for any mass murders. It must also be said that the Latvian and Estonian Waffen-SS divisions cannot be compared to the German Waffen-SS units.

Estonian and Latvian Waffen-SS soldiers were only engaged in military operations against the Red Army in defensive character. The Nürnberg trials recognized that the Baltic SS Legions were in no way connected to war crimes.

I see no problem with it.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Yes but I open an exception for those brave men of Waffen SS that during the Winter War in Finland fought bravely against the total annihilation.

Please explain Waffen SS and Finland.

During the summer and autumn of 1941 the Finnish Army was on the offensive, retaking the territories lost in the Winter War. The Finnish army also advanced further, especially in the direction of Lake Onega, (east from Lake Ladoga), leading to the occupation of Russian East Karelia (it never had been a part of Finland - or even, before 1809, of Sweden-Finland). This caused Great Britain to declare war on Finland on December 6. The German and Finnish troops in Northern Finland were less successful, failing to take the Russian port city of Murmansk.

In September 1941, the Finnish army took defensive positions. This led to a long period of relative calm in the front line, lasting until 1944. During this period, especially after the major German defeat in the Battle of Stalingrad, intermittent peace negotiations took place. These negotiations did not lead to any settlement.

On March 16th, 1944, the president of the United States of America, Franklin D. Roosevelt, called for Finland to disassociate itself from Nazi Germany.[1]

On June 9, 1944, the Red Army launched a massive attack against Finland. The fact that the enemy had vast numerical superiority, and had managed to surprise the Finnish army, led to a retreat approximately to the same positions as the Finns were holding at the end of the Winter War. Eventually the Soviet offensive was fought to a standstill (see Battle of Tali-Ihantala) while still tens or hundreds of kilometres in front of the main Finnish line of fortifications, the Salpa Line.

The dire situation in 1944 had led to Finnish president Risto Ryti giving Germany his personal guarantee that Finland would not negotiate peace with the Soviet Union for as long as he was the president. In exchange Germany delivered weapons to the Finns. After the Soviet invasion was halted, however, Ryti resigned. Due to the war, elections could not be held, and therefore the Parliament selected Mannerheim, the Finnish commander-in-chief, as president and charged him with negotiating a peace.

The Finnish front had become a sideshow for the Soviet leadership, as they were in a race to reach Berlin before the Western Allies. This, and the heavy casualties inflicted on the Red Army by the Finns, led to the withdrawal of most troops from the Finnish front. On September 4, 1944 a ceasefire was agreed, and the Moscow armistice was signed on September 19. In the armistice agreement Finland was obliged to expel German troops from the country. This led to the Lapland War.

I think the Finns as a whole were brave soldiers and Mannerheim a brilliant commander

[Loki]

Thread split, and Serbian discussion moved here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5123).

[lei.talk]

...the whole point is
why can't people be proud of what they are...and the answer is equally obvious:

they have no accomplishments
of which to be proud.

most persons are obedient sheeple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery)
and attempt to pacify their frustrated existence
by substance-abuse
and suckling at the glass teat of the media mammary:
television, video-games et alia
and every other form of vicariousness/escapism.

they are shamed by their behavior
and fear their weakness indicates an inability to improve.

if the time and money wasted
on the various forms of anesthesia
were applied to becoming healthier, wealthier and wiser -

each of these persons
would "be proud of what they are"
and become exemplars to those yet to take the first step.
Originally Posted by lei.talkhttp://i40.tinypic.com/eqtc9w.jpg (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=603928#post603928)

Originally Posted by anonymaus
These people are doing a great thing
and setting a good example.

...cast away the unnecessary facets of modern life...

We must be masters of ourselves,
if we wish to be masters of our lands again.
look in the mirror.
are you an exemplar of your genetic potential?
have you made manifest the promise in your blood?

[DarkZarathustra]

Absolutly agree with Svarog.

[Hors]

In addition, Latvian and Estonian Waffen-SS units were not responsible for any mass murders.

Are you serious? Of course they were!


Estonian and Latvian Waffen-SS soldiers were only engaged in military operations against the Red Army in defensive character.

The Estonian SS Legion was used primarily against Russian civilians. The Estinian SS Division fought on the front (not for long, it was crushed by the Red Army in a matter of days). However, the war crimes of Estonian SS formations are nothing in comparison of atrocities comitted by Latvian SS formations.


The Nürnberg trials recognized that the Baltic SS Legions were in no way connected to war crimes.

Tell us more about this fascinating story!

[SwordoftheVistula]

The Estonian SS Legion was used primarily against Russian civilians.

People acting as civilians, known in the parlance of the time as 'partisans' and today called 'insurgents' or 'terrorists'.

Also, reprisals against civilians for attacks originating from said 'civilian' population were a common, accepted and effective tactic in wars throughout history; it was not until the 4th Geneva Convention in 1949 that this practice was condemned.

[RoyBatty]

In addition, Latvian and Estonian Waffen-SS units were not responsible for any mass murders. It must also be said that the Latvian and Estonian Waffen-SS divisions cannot be compared to the German Waffen-SS units.

Estonian and Latvian Waffen-SS soldiers were only engaged in military operations against the Red Army in defensive character. The Nürnberg trials recognized that the Baltic SS Legions were in no way connected to war crimes.

I see no problem with it.

Lies and fairytales. :rolleyes2:

[Brännvin]

I do not condemn the veterans of the Latvian or Estonian Legion. Because, they made a hard choice between two totalitarian regimes(Nazism and Communism). There was no good choice. They fought for their homeland that says all.



Tell us more about this fascinating story!

While the Waffen-SS was found guilty of war crimes and other atrocities and declared a criminal organization after the War, the Nuremberg Trials explicitly excluded conscripts in the following terms:

"The Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph who became or remained members of the organisation with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter or who were personally implicated as members of the organisation in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes".

Source (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/09-30-46.asp)



In 1949-1950 the United States Displaced Persons Commission investigated the Estonian and Latvian divisions and on September 1, 1950 adopted the following policy:

"The Baltic Waffen SS Units are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States under Section 13 of the Displaced Persons Act, as amended"

Source (http://www.hot.ee/vaikal/usa.htm)

[SwordoftheVistula]

In 1949-1950 the United States Displaced Persons Commission investigated the Estonian and Latvian divisions and on September 1, 1950 adopted the following policy:

"The Baltic Waffen SS Units are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States under Section 13 of the Displaced Persons Act, as amended"

Source (http://www.hot.ee/vaikal/usa.htm)

That makes sense, but I don't know why they didn't extend the same to all volunteers in the former USSR. All the octogenarian 'nazi war criminals' they've dug up for the past decade or so seem to have come from the Ukraine or thereabouts.

[Hors]

[QUOTE]I do not condemn the veterans of the Latvian or Estonian Legion. Because, they made a hard choice between two totalitarian regimes(Nazism and Communism). There was no good choice. They fought for their homeland that says all.




While the Waffen-SS was found guilty of war crimes and other atrocities and declared a criminal organization after the War, the Nuremberg Trials explicitly excluded conscripts in the following terms:

I gather it's news to you, but Latvian and Estonian SS Legions were formed by volunteers only.

What made you think their members were conscripts?

And, in any way, they committed henious crimes against Russians, Belarussians, Ukrainians and Poles, conscripts or not.

[Hors]

People acting as civilians, known in the parlance of the time as 'partisans' and today called 'insurgents' or 'terrorists'.

Incidentally, it were mostly women, children and old men.

Anyway, following your logic, many millions of them fought against the Germans... I hope you aren't an adherent of the theory that Germans came as liberators from the Bolshevik terror?


Also, reprisals against civilians for attacks originating from said 'civilian' population were a common, accepted and effective tactic in wars throughout history; it was not until the 4th Geneva Convention in 1949 that this practice was condemned.

Unfortunately for you, there is enough evidence showing that the actual aim of the the "reprisals" was to get rid of the population.

http://energo.vstu.vinnica.ua/photo_of_war/1941/1941_35.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

Somehow you Russians start reminding me off Jews. Always looking back to the horrors of the war while ruthlessly crushing anyone that dares to criticize you for the crimes you have committed yourself.

The USSR was not an angel in the war: they simply got backstabbed by their old buddy Hitler. Remember the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and their joint assault on Poland ? Or what about the Winter War ? The invasion of the Baltic. And that is before 1941-1945.

Stop behaving like street scum that is crying to the police when they got robbed and thrashed by their partner in crime.

It is fact that the USSR suffered (some say) 30 million in deaths but then the question arises: was it purely the Nazi's ? A lot of soldiers got killed by the NKVD or political commissars for withdrawing.
Also the tactics used by the Red Army were of such nature that a lot of people died. People were also terrorized by both sides. And the Germans of course reacted violently and cruel as was common in the days before WWII and burned entire villages because they were suspected of "helping partisans" (something similar happened in the West btw: Oradour-sur-Glane in France (and numerous other villages) and Putten in the Netherlands) notwithstanding that that help was usually also given at the barrel of a loaded gun.




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/DeadFinns.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/DeadFinnishcivilians1942.jpg


Now- let's take a closer look at those partisans: those murdered children in the picture are not Russian. They are Finnish- murdered by Soviet partisans.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Katyn_-_decision_of_massacre_p1.jpg

Already before 1941 the USSR of course was in Poland. I am sure that one of the foreigners that is speaking some Russian would be willing to translate this. This unfortunately is only page 1 but signed by Lavrenty Beria ordering the execution of 25.700 Poles. (Katyn Massacres).

Apart from the pictures of "heroic action" by Soviet partisans I decided to stay before 1941 as to show that the USSR wasn't so innocent at all.

[Äike]

Are you serious? Of course they were!

They weren't. I have an archive of historic books. Several about the Estonian Waffen SS. From the first day when the Estonian Waffen SS was created, until the last day when the remains of the Estonian Waffen SS surrendered to the Allies in Western Germany, no mass murders or any crimes against any civilians were committed. If you would actually be well read about WW2, then you wouldn't be making these trollish posts.

You're like an ANTIFA/Commie, spreading lies that are in no way true.





The Estonian SS Legion was used primarily against Russian civilians. The Estonian SS Division fought on the front (not for long, it was crushed by the Red Army in a matter of days). However, the war crimes of Estonian SS formations are nothing in comparison of atrocities comitted by Latvian SS formations.

The Estonian Waffen SS was only used for fighting against the Soviet army. When the Soviet Union advanced in Eastern Europe thousands of miles a month. Then the Narwa front (where the Estonian Waffen SS was) didn't move a bit for about 6 months. It would have stayed that way, if Hitler wouldn't have pulled all the troops out of Estonia. The Estonian Waffen SS was never defeated by the Soviet Army. The Estonian Waffen SS surrendered to the Allies in Western Germany at the last days of the war. They couldn't have made it that far, if the Soviet army would have defeated them. But as they were undefeated, they surrendered to the Allies.



Tell us more about this fascinating story!

That's not a story, that's a historic fact.

[Hors]

Now- let's take a closer look at those partisans: those murdered children in the picture are not Russian. They are Finnish- murdered by Soviet partisans.

What a story! What were Finnish children doing on the occupied territories of the USSR?!!!

[Äike]

I gather it's news to you, but Latvian and Estonian SS Legions were formed by volunteers only.

False. There were about 2 mobilizations in Estonia.




And, in any way, they committed henious crimes against Russians, Belarussians, Ukrainians and Poles, conscripts or not.

They committed no crimes, stop spreading communist lies.

[Äike]

What a story! What were Finnish children doing on the occupied territories of the USSR?!!!

Soviet Union invaded Finland :coffee: and not all could escape the Red Terror.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Winter-War-Overview.png

[The Lawspeaker]

What a story! What were Finnish children doing on the occupied territories of the USSR?!!!
They were living there before the war ? You know-- before the Russians came !

[Hors]

They weren't. I have an archive of historic books. Several about the Estonian Waffen SS. From the first day when the Estonian Waffen SS was created, until the last day when the remains of the Estonian Waffen SS surrendered to the Allies in Western Germany, no mass murders or any crimes against any civilians were committed. If you would actually be well read about WW2, then you wouldn't be making these trollish posts.

You're like an ANTIFA/Commie, spreading lies that are in no way true.


Shut up. We're talking about the Estonian SS Legion, not Waffen SS.

However, the latter largely consisted of the Legion's bastads, implicated in atrocities against Slavs.


Then the Narwa front (where the Estonian Waffen SS was) didn't move a bit for about 6 months.

The front? Maybe. But the Estonian division was dealt with in just several days.


The Estonian Waffen SS was never defeated by the Soviet Army.

LOL


The Estonian Waffen SS surrendered to the Allies in Western Germany at the last days of the war.

So they preferred to surrender instead of gallantly defending millions of women to be raped (hello Cloggy!). What a cowardly scum they were!


They couldn't have made it that far, if the Soviet army would have defeated them. But as they were undefeated, they surrendered to the Allies.

It's way more simpe than it. After the Narva catastrophe what was left from the division was sent to Germany.




That's not a story, that's a historic fact.

It's a piece of historic BS.

[Hors]

They were living there before the war ? You know-- before the Russians came !

Post the legend for the pics together with with the link.

[The Lawspeaker]

Post the legend for the pics together with with the link.
HELSINGIN SANOMAT (http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Too+awful+an+image+of+war/1135223124092), 2006 (via wikimedia "Jatkosota (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Continuation_War))

Description DeadFinnishcivilians1942.jpg The bodies of civilians killed by Soviet partisans have been laid out on the grass in the village of Seitajärvi in Finnish Lapland.

Discussion of the mass murders of Finnish civilians has been largely off-limits. During the war itself, the authorities even went so far as to order those who knew of the cross-border attacks on Finnish villages to keep their silence.

Source (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/DeadFinnishcivilians1942.jpg) Picture Archive of the Finnish Defence Forces. Published in 2006 in Helsingin Sanomat see [1] (http://www.hs.fi/english/article/The+responsibility+shifts+to+the+media/1135223124111) and [2] (http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Too+awful+an+image+of+war/1135223124092)
Date July 1942
Author credited to 'PUOLUSTUSVOIMAT'

Description DeadFinns.jpg Young victims of Soviet partisans at Seitajärvi.
Source (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/DeadFinns.jpg) Picture Archive of the Finnish Defence Forces.[1] (http://www.iltalehti.fi/kuvagalleria/img/yleinen/5078.jpg) Published in 2006 in Helsingin Sanomat see [2] (http://www.hs.fi/english/article/The+responsibility+shifts+to+the+media/1135223124111)
Date ca.1944
Author not listed
Permission



(http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:DeadFinns.jpg)

[Hors]

False. There were about 2 mobilizations in Estonia.

So WHAT? (Btw, "about 2" - LOL)

Ah, Estonian wit is proverbial... okey: The Estonian Legion was formed by volunteers only, the SS Division had both volunteers and conscripts.



They committed no crimes, stop spreading communist lies.

The evidence is numerous and irrefutable.

[Äike]

Shut up. We're talking about the Estonian SS Legion, not Waffen SS.


The Estonian Legion (German: Estnische Legion) was a military unit within the Combat Support Forces of the Waffen SS Verfügungstruppe during World War II.

You proved your idiocy once again:thumb001:


However, the latter largely consisted of the Legion's bastads, implicated in atrocities against Slavs.

That's false.




The front? Maybe. But the Estonian division was dealt with in just several days.

Even when Hitler had pulled out the troops out of Estonia(because the Latvian front collapsed) some Estonians still remained at the Narwa front. Even before, when all the troops were there, they were SERIOUSLY outnumbered. Now when the majority of the troops were pulled out, the odds were hopeless.




LOL

I don't see nothing funny in history.




So they preferred to surrender instead of gallantly defending millions of women to be raped (hello Cloggy!). What a cowardly scum they were!

Germany had already surrendered. An army can't exist without a country.



It's way more simpe than it. After the Narva catastrophe what was left from the division was sent to Germany.

There was no catastrophe, just all the troops were pulled out of Estonia so the Soviet Army could march in.





It's a piece of historic BS.

It's not BS and you know it.

[Hors]

[QUOTE]Description DeadFinnishcivilians1942.jpg The bodies of civilians killed by Soviet partisans have been laid out on the grass in the village of Seitajärvi in Finnish Lapland.

The first envelope contains pictures of a village in Finnish Lapland that was destroyed by Soviet partisans who crossed the border.

No need to read this absurd BS after the very first insane sentence.

[The Lawspeaker]

The first envelope contains pictures of a village in Finnish Lapland that was destroyed by Soviet partisans who crossed the border.

No need to read this absurd BS after the very first insane sentence.
Why- because they crossed into Finland ? Does the truth hurt you THAT much ?:D


Seitajärvi is actually quite deep in Finland btw (if it is the same village). Check Google Maps.

[Äike]

So WHAT? (Btw, "about 2" - LOL)

Ah, Estonian wit is proverbial... okey: The Estonian Legion was formed by volunteers only, the SS Division had both volunteers and conscripts.
The Estonian Legion(part of Estonian Waffen SS) was mainly formed of conscripts. There were volunteers too, who wouldn't want to defend their homeland from a regime that sent their family to Sibera?




The evidence is numerous and irrefutable.

There's no evidence, because no crimes against civilians were done. The Estonian Waffen SS could ONLY be used against the Soviet Army, on the purpose of defense.

[Hors]

You proved your idiocy once again:thumb001:

Chukhonets is speaking about somebody else's idiocy? Now I've seen everything!

Now, for other (sound) readers:

There was the Estonian SS Legion formed in 1942 out of volunteers and the Estonian Waffen SS Division formed in 1944 out of conscripts and volunteers.

The former was implicated in war crimes, the latter was just a combat unit.


That's false.

That's true.


Germany had already surrendered. An army can't exist without a country.

How come a division which fought on the Eastern front left defenceless civilians and found itself in the Western sector, hundreds of km away from the last frontline?


There was no catastrophe, just all the troops were pulled out of Estonia so the Soviet Army could march in.

Where to? Pomerania? :D



It's not BS and you know it

Everybody knows it's BS

[Hors]

http://www.ln.mid.ru/ns-dgpch.nsf/05a95604fc81125843256da400378f3b/432569ee00522d3cc3256e390038efae?OpenDocument

Involvement of the Estonian SS Legion in War Crimes
in 1941-1945 and the Attempts to Revise the Verdict
of the Nuremberg Tribunal in Estonia

[The Lawspeaker]

http://www.ln.mid.ru/ns-dgpch.nsf/05a95604fc81125843256da400378f3b/432569ee00522d3cc3256e390038efae?OpenDocument

Involvement of the Estonian SS Legion in War Crimes
in 1941-1945 and the Attempts to Revise the Verdict
of the Nuremberg Tribunal in Estonia
Now- Hors.. let's look at Russia's war crimes for once.. Ooh no wait if we do that we will be treating this for two weeks to come because there are so many of them.

[Äike]

Chukhonets is speaking about somebody else's idiocy? Now I've seen everything!

Now, for other (sound) readers:

There was the Estonian SS Legion formed in 1942 out of volunteers and the Estonian Waffen SS Division formed in 1944 out of conscripts and volunteers.

The former was implicated in war crimes, the latter was just a combat unit.

Not a single Estonian in the Estonian Legion and the Waffen SS did any war crimes. It's a proven fact.




That's true.
In your fantasy world, everything is true.



How come a division which fought on the Eastern front left defenceless civilians and found itself in the Western sector, hundreds of km away from the last frontline? The Waffen SS obeyed to Germany, with the advancing Soviet Army. The more west the Estonian Waffen SS had to go.





Everybody knows it's BS
The only thing BS here, is your posts, that are full of false information.

[Hors]

Why- because they crossed into Finland ? Does the truth hurt you THAT much ?:D

This BS hurts the common sense.

Partisans are untrained poorly armed civilians who fight the invaders on their own ground. In 1942, when the war is in climax for Russia, a group of them (how come they're not in the army or civil service?) somehow manages TO CROSS THE SOVIET-FINNISH FRONT AND PENETRATE DEEP INTO THE FINNISH TERRITORY (!!!) WITH THE PURPOSE TO MURDER A WOMAN AND 2 CHILDREN !!!

The story alone is the evidence that the murder is not connected with the Soviets... it must be evident for anyone except the likes of Cloggy.

[Äike]

http://www.ln.mid.ru/ns-dgpch.nsf/05a95604fc81125843256da400378f3b/432569ee00522d3cc3256e390038efae?OpenDocument

Involvement of the Estonian SS Legion in War Crimes
in 1941-1945 and the Attempts to Revise the Verdict
of the Nuremberg Tribunal in Estonia

Russian propaganda is a fun thing to read on a Saturday evening;)

[The Lawspeaker]

This BS hurts the common sense.

Partisans are untrained poorly armed civilians who fight the invaders on their own ground. In 1942, when the war is in climax for Russia, a group of them (how come they're not in the army or civil service?) somehow manages TO CROSS THE SOVIET-FINNISH FRONT AND PENETRATE DEEP INTO THE FINNISH TERRITORY (!!!) WITH THE PURPOSE TO MURDER A WOMAN AND 2 CHILDREN !!!

The story alone is the evidence that the murder is not connected with the Soviets... it must be evident for anyone except the likes of Cloggy.
LOL. Your "glorious partisans" were nothing else but bands of rapists and murderers, arsonists and thieves that crossed any border to spread terror, rape, arson, murder.

That's clear for everyone except for Russki's that still live in their Soviet fantasy. You know--- a bit like the Germans of WW2.

[Hors]

In September 1944, the 20th SS division took part in the fight against the Red Army units, including the Estonian rifle corps in the region of Rakvere, where it suffered heavy casualties. In September 1944, its remains were sent to the training camp in the German town of Neuhammer, where, in October 1944, the 20th Estonian SS division, consisting of three Estland grenadier SS regiments, was formed anew from the isolated units of the defeated brigade, members of the 13 Estonian police battalions and "Omakaitse" detachments. Until January 1945, units of the division took part in the fighting in the Eastern Prussia. On 13 January 1945, the whole of the division was sent to the front, to the region of the German town of Vittenberg, where, along with other fascist units, it was surrounded by the Red Army units. F. Augsberger, commander of the division, was killed in action, and it was headed by lieutenant colonel A. Rebane.

Fighting its way out, the division broke out from the encirclement and retreated to the territory of Czechoslovakia, where it stayed until the utter crushing defeat of the German fascist troops. On May 11, 1945, near the town of Melnik, not far away from Prague, the bulk of the military personnel was taken prisoner by the Red Army units (Ready J. Lee. The Forgotten Axis. Germany’s Partners and Foreign Volunteers in World War II. Jefferson, North Carolina and London, 1987. p. 491), though some of the Estonian soldiers and officers (including 3 thousand men from the training and reserve regiment of the division) retreated to the West and surrendered to the English-American troops.

[Hors]

LOL. Your "glorious partisans" were nothing else but bands of rapists and murderers, arsonists and thieves that crossed any border to spread terror, rape, arson, murder.

That's clear for everyone except for Russki's that still live in their Soviet fantasy. You know--- a bit like the Germans of WW2.

You're really retarded, Cloggy.

What BORDER? It's 1942, there is no BORDER, there is a FRONT. I know, this notion must be hard to percieve for a representative of a nation which was a loser in all wars in the last 300 years, but trust me, only special military units could cross the front line, with a lot of luck too, while civilians had no chance of doing it, not to mention that they had no purpose to do so.

[Äike]

In September 1944, the 20th SS division took part in the fight against the Red Army units, including the Estonian rifle corps in the region of Rakvere, where it suffered heavy casualties. In September 1944, its remains were sent to the training camp in the German town of Neuhammer, where, in October 1944, the 20th Estonian SS division, consisting of three Estland grenadier SS regiments, was formed anew from the isolated units of the defeated brigade, members of the 13 Estonian police battalions and "Omakaitse" detachments. Until January 1945, units of the division took part in the fighting in the Eastern Prussia. On 13 January 1945, the whole of the division was sent to the front, to the region of the German town of Vittenberg, where, along with other fascist units, it was surrounded by the Red Army units. F. Augsberger, commander of the division, was killed in action, and it was headed by lieutenant colonel A. Rebane.

Fighting its way out, the division broke out from the encirclement and retreated to the territory of Czechoslovakia, where it stayed until the utter crushing defeat of the German fascist troops. On May 11, 1945, near the town of Melnik, not far away from Prague, the bulk of the military personnel was taken prisoner by the Red Army units (Ready J. Lee. The Forgotten Axis. Germany’s Partners and Foreign Volunteers in World War II. Jefferson, North Carolina and London, 1987. p. 491), though some of the Estonian soldiers and officers (including 3 thousand men from the training and reserve regiment of the division) retreated to the West and surrendered to the English-American troops.

It wasn't defeated, it was quite depleted of troops, because of fighting against way more numerous Soviets. If they would have been defeated then the 20th Estonian SS division wouldn't have existed anymore.


The "Red Army units" were actually the Czech freedom fighters( there were 2 types of those. The Reds and the Whites).

A part of the Estonian Estonian 20th SS division surrendered to the Czech Reds and got executed. Surrendering was a serious error.

[The Lawspeaker]

You're really retarded, Cloggy.

What BORDER? It's 1942, there is no BORDER, there is a FRONT. I know, this notion must be hard to percieve for a representative of a nation which was a loser in all wars in the last 300 years, but trust me, only special military units could cross the front line, with a lot of luck too, while civilians had no chance of doing it, not to mention that they had no purpose to do so.


That's because we were hardly fighting- but: we nearly won the 10 Day Campaign in Belgian if it hadn't been for those pesky French. Not that I can blame them. And - we won Aceh, we won all the wars in the Indies. But we used our time for something better: peace.

I am just going to post pictures as to show the "bravery" of the Russians in the war and here we go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Soviet_Order_1945-00.png

Некоторые военнослужащие своим поведением наносят государству колоссальным материальный ущерб, выражающийся в том, что в городах и сёлах Восточной Пруссии из озорства и хулиганства уничтожают ценное имущиство, сжигают здания и целые деревни, не понимая, что всё имущество, находящееся на территории Восточной Пруссии, с момента захвата его частями Красной Армии, является собственностью Советского государства, подлежит охране и отправке в СССР. Чаще всего уничтожение имущества и поджоги проводятся лицами тыловых подразделений и в большинстве случаев лицами, находящимися в нетрезвом состоянии.
Отмечены также факты применения военнослужащими оружия к немецкому населению, в частности, к женщинам и старикам. Отмечены многочисленные факты расстрела в обстановке, когда этот расстрел не был вызван абсолютно никакой необходимостью и был совершён только из озорства. Многие военнослужащие как офицерского, так и рядового состава загрузили обозы и свои вещевые мешки трофейным имуществом, что связывает боевую маневренность офицеров и красноармейцев.
Военные Советы Фронта и Армии категорически потребовали от органов прокуратуры нещадно карать пьяниц и лиц, уничтожающих имущество и поджигающих населённые пункты и отдельные дома, применяющих оружие к немецкому населению, и других нарушителей воинскох дисциплины.
Предлагаю:


Провести в подразделениях разъяснительную работу совместно с политаппаратом и подчеркнуть, что уничтожение имущества, захваченного у немцев, и поджёги населённых пунктов — есть вредное антигосударственное дело, за которое виновные будут строго наказываться. Разъяснить военнослужащим, что Красной Армии несвойственны методы расправы с гражданским населением и что применять оружие по отношению к женщинам и старикам преступно, и за такие действия виновные будут строго наказываться.
Немедленно организовать один-два процесса над яростными поджигателями населённых пунктов и лицами, уничтожающими имущество и другие ценности. Приговоры проработать со всем личным составом.
Провести решительную борьбу с пьянством. Лиц, замеченных в пьянстве при исполнении служебных обязанностей, привлекать к строгой ответственности вплоть до придания суду Военного Трибунала.
Помочь командному составу организовать освобождение обозов и вещевых мешков военнослужащих от стесняющих их трофеев, которые понижают боевую способность части. Добиться от командования, чтобы оно обеспечило предоставление лучшим офицерам и бойцам возможности отправки посылок из фондов трофейного имущества и продовольствия.


Unfortunately it was only partially translated but the wikipedia translation (I am not in the mood for looking up real souces for this troll):

"Some army members have caused enormous material damage by their behavior, because they destroy valuable property in the cities and villages of East Prussia burning down buildings and whole villages which belong to the soviet state now.(..) Furthermore cases were determined where army members used weapons against the German civilian population, particularly against women and the elderly. Numerous cases were determined where prisoners of war were shot under circumstances, in which shooting was not necessary but came only from bad will." The order goes on to specify measures against such occurrences, defining the occurrences as unjustified and inadmissible. Specifically, the order proposes to conduct "one-two" demonstrative punishments of Soviet soldiers accused of war crimes and to initiate a struggle against intemperance in the Red Army.

http://jewsribsinbearjaw.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/german_girl_1945.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Germans_killed_by_Soviet_army.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Katyn_massacre_1.jpg
I am sure the Poles will love you for this one !

More Soviet heroism. Watch closely.. yes in particularly to the watches:

http://www.essential-architecture.com/G-BER/021-Reichstag_flag.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_023w4hdG0iI/SCKdkAI1KII/AAAAAAAAFbA/rNqL4nEq7QE/s400/0102.jpg

[Hors]

Not a single Estonian in the Estonian Legion and the Waffen SS did any war crimes. It's a proven fact.

Estnische SS Freiwilligen Brigade participated in operations "Heinrich" anbd "Fritz" against civilians iin the region Polotzk-Nevel-Idriza-Sebezh in October-Dezember of 1943. The personnel was implicated in executions of civilians, lootings, burning entire villages etc.

[Hors]

It wasn't defeated, it was quite depleted of troops, because of fighting against way more numerous Soviets.

ROFL


If they would have been defeated then the 20th Estonian SS division wouldn't have existed anymore.

It still does? :D



The "Red Army units" were actually the Czech freedom fighters( there were 2 types of those. The Reds and the Whites).

A part of the Estonian Estonian 20th SS division surrendered to the Czech Reds and got executed. Surrendering was a serious error.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Esto nian)

In April 1945, the remnants of the division were moved south to the area around Goldberg. After the final Soviet offensive, the division attempted to break out in the west, in order to surrender to the western Allies.[citation needed]
After marching over the Reichenberg and Annaberg mountains, the division was encircled by Russian forces and capitulated on May 8. Some of the Estonians who had reached the western allies were handed back to the Soviets.

[Äike]

Estnische SS Freiwilligen Brigade participated in operations "Heinrich" anbd "Fritz" against civilians iin the region Polotzk-Nevel-Idriza-Sebezh in October-Dezember of 1943. The personnel was implicated in executions of civilians, lootings, burning entire villages etc.

The Estonian SS was used against Soviet partisans, they may have taken part of the operation. But the Estonian SS was never given objectives of executing civilians, looting or burning any villages. Their only goal was to eliminate the Soviet partisans.

Any actions like executions of civilians, lootings and burnings of villages would have gone against the deal that the Waffen SS did with the volunteers. "Used only against the Soviet soldiers on defensive purposes"

[Hors]

That's because we were hardly fighting-

Exactly my point.


but: we nearly won the 10 Day Campaign in Belgian

You may form a club with Finns who are proud of 2 lost wars.



if it hadn't been for those pesky French. Not that I can blame them. And - we won Aceh, we won all the wars in the Indies. But we used our time for something better: peace.


Legalizing prostitution and drugs, promoting Islam and importing non-Europeans?

You know, several years ago I used to skim the Dutch on-line newspapers. Half of the contect was about local Muslims. I wonder, what's the share now? 70%?

Yeah, you're not wasting your time...


I am just going to post pictures as to show the "bravery" of the Russians in the war and here we

We have already discussed the topic and you left the discussion without answering the very question you posed.

[Äike]

It still does? :D

No, they surrendered when Germany had lost the war.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Esto nian)

In April 1945, the remnants of the division were moved south to the area around Goldberg. After the final Soviet offensive, the division attempted to break out in the west, in order to surrender to the western Allies.[citation needed]
After marching over the Reichenberg and Annaberg mountains, the division was encircled by Russian forces and capitulated on May 8. Some of the Estonians who had reached the western allies were handed back to the Soviets.

Yes Hors, entire Germany capitulated:D

Former Estonian Waffen SS members couldn't have been prison guards in Nürenberg, if the Soviet Army would have captured them.

Surrendering to the Soviets meant Gulags in Siberia, not serving as a prison guard in Nürenberg.

[The Lawspeaker]

Having read about the heroism of the Red Army I am glad that we got occupied by the Germans and liberated by the Canadians, British, Poles etc. And not occupied by the Russians......

:coffee:

[Hors]

The Estonian SS was used against Soviet partisans, they may have taken part of the operation. But the Estonian SS was never given objectives of executing civilians, looting or burning any villages.

Yeah, they did it volunturaly. The call of nature...


Their only goal was to eliminate the Soviet partisans.

And that's how up to 20 million Soviet civilians died...




Any actions like executions of civilians, lootings and burnings of villages would have gone against the deal that the Waffen SS did with the volunteers. "Used only against the Soviet soldiers on defensive purposes"

LOL

[Hors]

Former Estonian Waffen SS members couldn't have been prison guards in Nürenberg, if the Soviet Army would have captured them.

Surrendering to the Soviets meant Gulags in Siberia, not serving as a prison guard in Nürenberg.

Some of the rats may have escaped. But most ended up in the Russian hands. Unfortunately Stalin, being a non Russian, left them alive so now they dare to march in Tallin every year,

However, I doubt the story about Nurenberg. I've seen no evidence so far...

[Äike]

Yeah, they did it volunturaly. The call of nature...

That's false. The only soldiers in WW2, who did war crimes voluntarily and with pleasure, were the Soviets. Who raped hundreds of thousands of women, if not millions.




And that's how up to 20 million Soviet civilians died...


A few thousand Estonians killed 20 million Soviets, yeah Hors. I am now 100% sure you're sane:wink
The Estonian SS didn't even commit war crimes, try memorizing that.




LOL

History is history, you can't change it. Not my fault that you don't like history.

[Äike]

Some of the rats may have escaped. But most ended up in the Russian hands. Unfortunately Stalin, being a non Russian, left them alive so now they dare to march in Tallin every year,

Only very few got out of the gulags alive. If the Estonian SS were rats, then I don't even dare to think about the Soviets:eek:



However, I doubt the story about Nurenberg. I've seen no evidence so far...

You doubt everything that's true, typical Hors. I have even met a person who served as prison guard in Nürenberg.

[Hors]

Having read about the heroism of the Red Army I am glad that we got occupied by the Germans and liberated by the Canadians, British, Poles etc. And not occupied by the Russians......

:coffee:

A good example of logic of a victim of rape... It could have been much worse, the other one had a larger instrument... :D

[The Lawspeaker]

A good example of logic of a victim of rape... It could have been much worse, the other one had a larger instrument... :D
Hehe. Rapes by German soldiers were very rare. Honestly I am yet to find ANY source about it online. I have read that it was used by a war criminal, a Dutchman btw, in the interrogation sessions of female resistance fighters and he was arrested by the SD (as even they considered him to be too brutal) This man, (I can't find his first name) was arrested by the Dutch and shot in 1952 for war crimes.

What do you think a German could get until 1942 for as much as nicking a bike ? Firing squad.

You see- the Germans were aggressors, they were plain horrible but compared to the Russians they were very very civilized.

[Hors]

Only very few got out of the gulags alive.

Unfortunately it's not true.

No Gulag for absolute majority of Estonians SS members.

6 years of Siberian vacations (not in Gulag) for volunteers, and after that they were allowed to return to Estonia... :(

Only 6 300 Estonians were sent to Gulag :mad:

[Hors]

Hehe. Rapes by German soldiers were very rare.

You mean they were fucking each other?


Honestly I am yet to find ANY source about it online. I have read that it was used by a war criminal, a Dutchman btw, in the interrogation sessions of female resistance fighters and he was arrested by the SD (as even they considered him to be too brutal) This man, (I can't find his first name) was arrested by the Dutch and shot in 1952 for war crimes.

What do you think a German could get until 1942 for as much as nicking a bike ? Firing squad.

You see- the Germans were aggressors, they were plain horrible but compared to the Russians they were very very civilized.

Another load of BS from our Cloggy.

Russians were civilized enough not to mass murder German civilians, while Germans managed to exterminate up to 20 millions of Soviet civilians.

[Äike]

Unfortunately it's not true.

No Gulag for absolute majority of Estonians SS members.

6 years of Siberian vacations (not in Gulag) for volunteers, and after that they were allowed to return to Estonia... :(
Siberian vacation? Damn, you're less intelligent then I thought. The men who were sent to the Siberian gulags lost HALF of their body weight.

Weighing 45kg is a vacation?





Only 6 300 Estonians were sent to Gulag :mad:

You prove once again, that you're the extreme opposite of The Apricity's Mission statement. European preservation

Here at The Apricity we believe in the importance of preservation (ethnic, cultural and spiritual) of all the European peoples.

Wishing the elimination of any European peoples... I could even call you Anti-Apricity. Because you are extremely against The Apricity mission statement.

[The Lawspeaker]

You mean they were fucking each other?
Nope they were not. Actually a lot of them had Dutch girlfriends. Yes- this is still a hot iron in the Netherlands. The Germans tried to convert the Dutch (but also the Danes, Norwegians) to National Socialism by actively dating locals and befriending them (in some way) and by remaining as polite as possible (until around 1942-1943 when they noticed that their policy had failed). The only real brutal action took place during the February Strike in 1941 (organized by the communists).


http://www.nicospilt.com/anderen/WV1940_DenHaagSS.JPG
Dutch forces demobilized and released from captivity- September 1940. All Dutch troops were marched off as POW again in 1943.


http://www.eerebegraafplaatsbloemendaal.eu/images/6.1-Tijdens-de-bezetting.jpg
1940- German troops entering Amsterdam.

http://www.wo2kennemerland.nl/Overhalen/img/foto06.jpg
A German military policeman- somewhere on a Dutch street greeting the photographer. The question remains whether the photographer was Dutch or German.
Do you notice the police officer ? He still wears a weapon !



Another load of BS from our Cloggy.
Do you even know where Estonia or Latvia are- let alone the Netherlands, Russki ?


Russians were civilized enough not to mass murder German civilians, while Germans managed to exterminate up to 20 millions of Soviet civilians.
How would you call raping 5 million German women and girls (that is alone Germany- many more were raped elsewhere) and kicking out 12 million Germans from their ancestral soil ?


Fact is that under the Russians everyone was in danger-- under the Germans (at least here) only resistance fighters and Jews faced a real risk. Forced requisitioning only started in 1942/1943. But still- the 1944-1945 famine cannot be blamed on the Germans as their was enough food in the country. All transports had been halted by.... a proclamation on September 17, 1944 by... our queen and government (forget about giving her a capital Q) in London. Where they had gone violating the then existing (removed in 1943) article 25 of the Dutch Constitution of 1848 stating that the government and queen could not leave the country (they could have gone to Suriname, the Netherlands Indies and Netherlands Antilles but not to London)

[Wildland]

You mean they were fucking each other?



Another load of BS from our Cloggy.

Russians were civilized enough not to mass murder German civilians, while Germans managed to exterminate up to 20 millions of Soviet civilians.

When the Russian population where in famine somewhere around 1920's that caused over 5 million deaths, the Jew Trotsky, where more eager to invest in military equipment rather than giving food on the table on the host nation he was practising his ideology.
I wouldn't give much respect and see them as civilized over an ideology that doesn't respect its own population.

[Svarog]

does anyone even remember the point of the thread..

[The Lawspeaker]

A "nice" article that I found:

Red Army troops raped even Russian women as they freed them from camps (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/1382565/Red-Army-troops-raped-even-Russian-women-as-they-freed-them-from-camps.html)


THE Red Army's orgy of rape in the dying days of Nazi Germany was conducted on a much greater scale than previously suspected, according to a new book by the military historian Anthony Beevor.

Beevor, the author of the best-selling Stalingrad (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1999/06/15/nbook15.html), says advancing Soviet troops raped large numbers of Russian and Polish women held in concentration camps, as well as millions of Germans.

The extent of the Red Army's indiscipline and depravity emerged as the author studied Soviet archives for his forthcoming book Berlin, to be published in April by Viking.

Beevor - who was educated at Sandhurst and served in the 11th Hussars (Prince Albert's Own), an elite cavalry regiment - says details of the Soviet soldiers' behaviour have forced him to revise his view of human nature.
"Having always in the past slightly pooh-poohed the idea that most men are potential rapists, I had to come to the conclusion that if there is a lack of army discipline, most men with a weapon, dehumanised by living through two or three years of war, do become potential rapists," he told The Bookseller.

He appears to echo the American feminist Marilyn French's notorious claim that "in their relations with women, all men are rapists, and that's all they are".

Any such resemblance is, however, superficial. Beevor is careful to qualify any suggestion that what happened from 1944 onwards is in any way typical of male behaviour in peacetime. But he admits that he was "shaken to the core" to discover that Russian and Polish women and girls liberated from concentration camps were also violated.

"That completely undermined the notion that the soldiers were using rape as a form of revenge against the Germans," he said.

"By the time the Russians reached Berlin, soldiers were regarding women almost as carnal booty; they felt because they were liberating Europe they could behave as they pleased. That is very frightening, because one starts to realise that civilisation is terribly superficial and the facade can be stripped away in a very short time."

Beevor's high reputation as a historian ensures that his claims will be taken seriously. Stalingrad was widely praised and awarded the prestigious Samuel Johnson Prize, the Wolfson Prize for History and the Hawthornden Prize.

His account of the siege of Berlin, however, promises to be more controversial. "In many ways the fate of the women and the girls in Berlin is far worse than that of the soldiers starving and suffering in Stalingrad."
To understand why the rape of Germany was so uniquely terrible, the context is essential. Operation Barbarossa, the Nazi invasion of Russia in 1941, began the most genocidal conflict in history. Perhaps 30 million inhabitants of the Soviet Union are now thought to have died during the war, including more than three million who were deliberately starved in German PoW camps.

The Germans, having shown no quarter, could expect none in return. Their casualties were also on a vast scale. In the Battle of Berlin alone more than a million German soldiers were killed or died later in captivity, plus at least 100,000 civilians. The Soviet Union lost more than 300,000 men.
Against this horrific background, Stalin and his commanders condoned or even justified rape, not only against Germans but also their allies in Hungary, Romania and Croatia. When the Yugoslav Communist Milovan Djilas protested to Stalin, the dictator exploded: "Can't he understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?"

And when German Communists warned him that the rapes were turning the population against them, Stalin fumed: "I will not allow anyone to drag the reputation of the Red Army in the mud."

The rapes had begun as soon as the Red Army entered East Prussia and Silesia in 1944. In many towns and villages every female, aged from 10 to 80, was raped. Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Nobel laureate who was then a young officer, described the horror in his narrative poem Prussian Nights: "The little daughter's on the mattress,/Dead. How many have been on it/A platoon, a company perhaps?"

But Solzhenitsyn was rare: most of his comrades regarded rape as legitimate. As the offensive struck deep into Germany, the orders of Marshal Zhukov, their commander, stated: "Woe to the land of the murderers. We will get a terrible revenge for everything."

By the time the Red Army reached Berlin its reputation, reinforced by Nazi propaganda, had already terrified the population, many of whom fled. Though the hopeless struggle came to an end in May 1945, the ordeal of German women did not.

How many German women were raped? One can only guess, but a high proportion of at least 15 million women who either lived in the Soviet Union zone or were expelled from the eastern provinces. The scale of rape is suggested by the fact that about two million women had illegal abortions every year between 1945 and 1948.

It was not until the winter of 1946-47 that the Soviet authorities, concerned by the spread of disease, imposed serious penalties on their forces in East Germany for fraternising with the enemy.

Soviet soldiers saw rape, often carried out in front of a woman's husband and family, as an appropriate way of humiliating the Germans, who had treated Slavs as an inferior race with whom sexual relations were discouraged. Russia's patriarchal society and the habit of binge-drinking were also factors, but more important was resentment at the discovery of Germany's comparative wealth.

The fact, highlighted by Beevor, that Soviet troops raped not only Germans but also their victims, recently liberated from concentration camps, suggests that the sexual violence was often indiscriminate, although far fewer Russian or Polish women were raped when their areas were liberated compared to the conquered Germans.

Jews, however, were not necessarily regarded by Soviet troops as fellow victims of the Nazis. The Soviet commissars had commandeered German concentration camps in order to incarcerate their own political prisoners, who included "class enemies" as well as Nazi officials, and their attitude towards the previous inmates was, to say the least, unsentimental.
As for the millions of Russian prisoners or slave workers who survived the Nazis: those who were not executed as traitors or sent to the Gulag could count themselves lucky. The women among them were probably treated no better than the Germans, perhaps worse.

The rape of Germany left a bitter legacy. It contributed to the unpopularity of the East German communist regime and its consequent reliance on the Stasi secret police. The victims themselves were permanently traumatised: women of the wartime generation still refer to the Red Army war memorial in Berlin as "the Tomb of the Unknown Rapist".

[Osweo]

Now- Hors.. let's look at Russia's war crimes for once.. Ooh no wait if we do that we will be treating this for two weeks to come because there are so many of them.
Big countries with lots of people and longer borders = more wars = more atrocities. :shrug The PER HEAD tendency to bad behaviour is probably not much worse than most other peoples.

More Soviet heroism. Watch closely.. yes in particularly to the watches:
I'd have stolen watches in that position, wouldn't you? :(

6 years of Siberian vacations (not in Gulag) for volunteers, and after that they were allowed to return to Estonia... :(
I have a friend in Moscow whose Estonian grandparents got this treatment. It wasn't so terrible as many say. They had a decent dairy farm set up out there in Sibir. They didn't want to go back to Estonia at the end. Their daughter, Virva Eduardovna told me this to my face.

Only 6 300 Estonians were sent to Gulag :mad:
You are an unpleasant person, Hors. :(

************************************
As for the TOPIC here, such people are clearly jokes. You should probably have specified 'Western nations', Svarog, to avoid the Baltic complexities... :wink

[The Lawspeaker]

Big countries with lots of people and longer borders = more wars = more atrocities. :shrug The PER HEAD tendency to bad behaviour is probably not much worse than most other peoples.
I hope not. Perhaps the lack of civilization and dehumanizing of the enemy is another thing. And perhaps also the way in which a society is structured.


I'd have stolen watches in that position, wouldn't you? :(
A decent army would have looters shot. I am sure that a British soldier doing a similar thing would have faced the firing squad. German soldiers looting in countries like Denmark, Norway or the Netherlands would have ended up badly (at least in the early days of the war).




You are an unpleasant person, Hors. :(
I couldn't agree more. Whereas Zealous gives the Russians a respectable face Hors merely seems to confirm every possible prejudice or justify all feelings of distrust against his kin and countrymen. Can we be actually be certain that Hors is really a Russki ? I am asking this since he seems to be so active in giving his kind a bad name (worse then it already had).

************************************

[DarkZarathustra]

OMG, teh drama!!!11 :eek::D

[Loki]

OMG, teh drama!!!11 :eek::D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/brownpau/sumo-internet-fight.gif

[EWtt]

Big countries with lots of people and longer borders = more wars = more atrocities. :shrug The PER HEAD tendency to bad behaviour is probably not much worse than most other peoples.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Homicide_rate_by_country.svg/800px-Homicide_rate_by_country.svg.png

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/uk_prison_population/img/2.jpg

Also, despite being a minority Russians commit the majority of crime in Estonia. At least the majority of prison population here is Russian-speaking.


I have a friend in Moscow whose Estonian grandparents got this treatment. It wasn't so terrible as many say. They had a decent dairy farm set up out there in Sibir. They didn't want to go back to Estonia at the end. Their daughter, Virva Eduardovna told me this to my face.

There might be exceptions, but most people who went through that and survived would disagree with the notion that it wasn't that terrible. Most of those deported were women and children! It was very terrible being sent off to Siberia in cattle wagons. There, people died of cold, hunger and basically slave labour.

http://www.hot.ee/vvliit/vagun.jpg

[Osweo]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Homicide_rate_by_country.svg/800px-Homicide_rate_by_country.svg.png
What are you trying to say? "Russians are natural born murderers"? That just makes you sound like Hors's reflection.
When are these figures from? Do they cover the entirety of Russian history? If my countrymen lived through anything similar to the Soviet collapse, they might well have ended up in a similar position.

Also, despite being a minority Russians commit the majority of crime in Estonia. At least the majority of prison population here is Russian-speaking.
People cut off from their roots. No surprise there.


There might be exceptions, but most people who went through that and survived would disagree with the notion that it wasn't that terrible.
I don't know most people, just one family. I gave their story. There's no reason for them to have received better than usual treatment. They were even part German. The Soviet Union was a pretty brutal place in many ways, I know, but not always and everywhere.

[Hors]

Siberian vacation? Damn, you're less intelligent then I thought. The men who were sent to the Siberian gulags lost HALF of their body weight.

Weighing 45kg is a vacation?

Now you admit they survived, albeit on a frugal diet... Good.


You prove once again, that you're the extreme opposite of The Apricity's Mission statement. European preservation

Yeah, it's European preservation, not Nazi bastards' rehabilitation.


Wishing the elimination of any European peoples... I could even call you Anti-Apricity. Because you are extremely against The Apricity mission statement.

Keep blabbing :coffee:

[Hors]

How would you call raping 5 million German women and girls (that is alone Germany- many more were raped elsewhere)

I call it fiction.



and kicking out 12 million Germans from their ancestral soil ?

After Generalplan OST and almost 20 murdered Soviet civilians such complaints do not seem decent.



Fact is that under the Russians everyone was in danger-- under the Germans (at least here) only resistance fighters and Jews faced a real risk.

You have mental problems. One day you admit the German genocide, while trying to put the blame both on Germans and Russians, another day you whitewash Germans.

Is it personality disorder?


How many German women were raped? One can only guess, but a high proportion of at least 15 million women who either lived in the Soviet Union zone or were expelled from the eastern provinces. The scale of rape is suggested by the fact that about two million women had illegal abortions every year between 1945 and 1948.

I have read the Beevor book. It contains NO FACTS proving mass rapes. And I'm not talking about even verified facts, it has no facts at all. The only facts the book contains show individual cases of rape, maybe a couple of dozens at the most.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

does anyone even remember the point of the thread..

Yes, easy to follow.
World Cup 1944 SS(Shyster Soldiers) vs SR(Sedentary Rape)

I think that Hors has a point and it really has nothing to do with PreservationLiving in South Africa I have little respect for the Afrikaner(for reasons that are irrelevant here),but I have a healthy respect for the Boers.
Both are white,both have the same ancestors,both went through hell.
The one lost its head,the other his farms.
And if there was a thread on Afrikaner I would, with compassion, bring the Afrikaner down.
The Boers suffered extremely in the concentration camps(24.000 children died and 3.000 women),yet I have more sympathy for the Brit(the culprit) than for an Afrikaner.
Preservation of the White race means preservation of its civilization and a cold hard look at whites.who fit and those who do not fit.

Just a thought.

[Hors]

A decent army would have looters shot. I am sure that a British soldier doing a similar thing would have faced the firing squad. German soldiers looting in countries like Denmark, Norway or the Netherlands would have ended up badly (at least in the early days of the war).

Take a look at the pictures of Germans in the Winter campaign (1941) in Russia. They wear Russian shubas (warm overcoats) and wear Russian valenki (warm winter shoes). Do you sincerely believe they traded it for something valuable... like, for example, Hitler's posters or NS insignia?

[Svarog]

Okay, I'll give a short rant on this off topic too and then bail into the safety of Oblivion wastes.

First, what I don't understand is people whining when they lose territories in war and later call others imperialistic countries, this of course is referred to the comments about Serbia being an imperialistic country and comments about Germans chased from Königsberg or today's Kaliningrad.

Austrougarian monarchy invaded Serbia, killed Serbian civilians and then in the first battle against an actual Serbian army this (http://www.fotorola.com/uploads/f345a4a535.jpg) happened, so, will someone explain to me, how Serbia 'invaded' their territories when they were first to attack us in an actual Serbia, lose the war, we took their territories, same happened in Russia, Germany attacked Russia, and yes Lawspeeker, try to deny it all you want Germans were aggressors and they were the one entering Russia and having murder parties with Russian civilians first, so I don't understand your complain about German family chased away after the war by Russians, no one would ever touch them if they were not the first one to start the war same as there would still be Germans and Hungarians in Serbia if they did not start the war with us and lost.

That is just whining, and what I always like to say when I hear few random Hungarians telling me I live in their country, stop crying about it, come and take it, beside, Slavs were the first one to live on those territories in the bigger picture, same as natives lived in the States, why don't Americans give them their lands back? Because, no one have monopole on land and territories, they are conquered and lost, if you are not strong enough to keep it then it is not yours, how simple as that.

[EWtt]

What are you trying to say? "Russians are natural born murderers"? That just makes you sound like Hors's reflection.

No, you're putting words to my mouth. I was stating the obvious that Russia has a relatively high crime rate and many from the Russian minority in Estonia, more than being a fifth column, commit the majority of crime. Estonian police officers and prison guards need to learn Russian just to do their job. :rolleyes2:


When are these figures from? Do they cover the entirety of Russian history?

The graphs also state the year. I don't know about any newer information, but I doubt it's much different.


People cut off from their roots. No surprise there.

I don't know how cut off they are, for example, in the Northeast of the country where they form the majority due to Soviet colonial policies. Many with Russian citizenship regularly cross the border to Russia in order to buy cheap vodka, cigarettes and gasoline. All their information is propaganda directly from the Kremlin which gives them a highly distorted view on things. They don't even know which way our flag is supposed to be, so no wonder they don't speak our language. "Ya zdes rodilsya, blyad" seems to be the only argument they have which they think gives them all the rights to behave how ever they want.

[Äike]

I have a friend in Moscow whose Estonian grandparents got this treatment. It wasn't so terrible as many say. They had a decent dairy farm set up out there in Sibir. They didn't want to go back to Estonia at the end. Their daughter, Virva Eduardovna told me this to my face.


I have relatives who were sent to Siberia, none survived. Your story is a fairy tale. If my relatives would have had such nice treatment, then they wouldn't have starved/frozen to death.

[Äike]

Now you admit they survived, albeit on a frugal diet... Good.
The lucky ones did weigh 45kg, the majority just starved to death. You should know your country's history, doing genocide on Northern Europeans and Eastern Europeans.




Yeah, it's European preservation, not Nazi bastards' rehabilitation.
You're a closet commie who wishes the reunification of USSR and the death of everything not Russian.



Keep blabbing :coffee:


You're against The Apricity mission statement, that's a fact. Denying it would be just pointless.

[RoyBatty]

You are an unpleasant person, Hors. :(


Not unpleasant, just truthful. Hors talks straight instead of toning down his comments to format it for consumption in "polite" society.

Most of us (people in general) like to convince ourselves that we are "likeable". Most people want to be accepted and liked by others. That's why we often think before we say or type something in order to keep the peace, not offend somebody and to appear "reasonable" to appeal to the "feelings" of others (even when we often don't really believe what we're saying while toning down our comments).

He's cut out the process to keep up pretensions while most of us haven't. It's a matter of social conditioning, not overall "pleasant" or "unpleasantness".

[RoyBatty]

You're against The Apricity mission statement, that's a fact. Denying it would be just pointless.

The Apricity mission statement is to promote cooperation and unity amongst the European nations. The constant sniping between certain groups here does nothing to further that cause, it only serves to create divides.

People either contribute and build or they leech and destroy. Those who promote constant inter-ethnic strife and attempt to draw up holier-than-thou type politically correct charts are enemies of the European family and possibly an even greater threat to it than the non-Europeans knocking on the doors.

A merry band of inside saboteurs is the last thing we need.

Whatever our personal convictions about certain Euro peoples may be, we're stuck with one another and need to make it work which will require some soul-searching, a quest for real truth (not "facts" which whitewash one side while demonising the other) and honesty from all sides. Sadly this isn't the case atm.

[RoyBatty]

Living in South Africa I have little respect for the Afrikaner(for reasons that are irrelevant here),but I have a healthy respect for the Boers.
Both are white,both have the same ancestors,both went through hell.
The one lost its head,the other his farms.
And if there was a thread on Afrikaner I would, with compassion, bring the Afrikaner down.

Boerseun, you'd better explain those differences as you perceive them because they are very relevant. The "Boer" vs "Afrikaner" debate is a bit confusing and there are no absolute definitions to either term so (for the benefit of readers her who aren't familiar with the issue) you'll need to explain exactly what your definitions are and what you mean.

My view is that that white Afrikaans speaking ppl who

- feel ashamed to be white and Afrikaans
- suffer from guilt trips
- vote DA
- watch soaps like 7e Laan
- admire Mandela
- would rather have their goddamn rugby than an independent homeland

are a waste of space.

[Äike]

The Apricity mission statement is to promote cooperation and unity amongst the European nations. The constant sniping between certain groups here does nothing to further that cause, it only serves to create divides.

People either contribute and build or they leech and destroy. Those who promote constant inter-ethnic strife and attempt to draw up holier-than-thou type politically correct charts are enemies of the European family and possibly an even greater threat to it than the non-Europeans knocking on the doors.

A merry band of inside saboteurs is the last thing we need.

Whatever our personal convictions about certain Euro peoples may be, we're stuck with one another and need to make it work which will require some soul-searching, a quest for real truth (not "facts" which whitewash one side while demonising the other) and honesty from all sides. Sadly this isn't the case atm.

He openly has shown that he would wish the death of several European peoples. Have I ever wished something like that? No I haven't, because I believe in the preservation of European peoples. I have also openly wished that the Russian economy would become the strongest in Europe. But Hors? He makes polls like this: "Who should rule the Baltics? a) Russia b) Sweden" etc...
He's a closet commie, who wishes the death of SEVERAL European peoples and acts like a Troll, you can't deny that fact. I think that he's the only person on The Apricity, who has openly wished for the death of his fellow European peoples.

[RoyBatty]

He openly has shown that he would wish the death of several European peoples.


Imo he's indifferent to what happens to them, particularly the ones who dislike him and his people because of their ethnicity.

That's not quite the same as having an active agenda to genocide peoples (a core virtue of Nazi Germany and its allies).



Have I ever wished something like that? No I haven't, because I believe in the preservation of European peoples.


No but

- you're more polite than Hors is
- it's unlikely you'll cry yourself to sleep if something unhappy happened to the Russians

As I mentioned in the earlier post, Hors simply cut through all the BS while many of us remain polite for appearances sake even though we're no different from him.



I have also openly wished that the Russian economy would become the strongest in Europe. But Hors? He makes polls like this: "Who should rule the Baltics? a) Russia b) Sweden" etc...


Yes yes, naughty boy. :D



He's a closet commie,


Dunno about that one. The problem is how does one define what a "Commie" supposedly is?



who wishes the death of SEVERAL European peoples and acts like a Troll, you can't deny that fact.
I think that he's the only person on The Apricity, who has openly wished for the death of his fellow European peoples.

Possibly but there are many who have similar thoughts but who don't express them. Imo Hors is being a lot more honest than many others.

Another thing to keep in mind is that those comments are sometimes ironic, to make a point or designed to provoke and annoy. It's a jungle out there! :D

[Svarog]

Dunno about that one. The problem is how does one define what a "Commie" supposedly is?

During the years this word lost it's sense, (not that it ever had really as commie is for a communist like a nazi for a national-socialist, shorten form but really does not mean anything), as before it would make some sense to call someone a communist today it is pretty much used to 'culturally' put down someone instead of calling him, for an example, a scum. So, people pretty much use it for everyone they don't like even if it does not really have any background, he's a commie, she is a commie, they are commies etc, same as some 'leftist' would call anyone of us a nazi no matter what our political or ideological background is..

When i was in my sixteens or so we used to call members of the punk sub-culture commies as they were rather liberal and anti-nationalistic where I live, not that anyone of them ever was a member of the communist party really :D

[Äike]

Imo he's indifferent to what happens to them, particularly the ones who dislike him and his people because of their ethnicity.

That's not quite the same as having an active agenda to genocide peoples (a core virtue of Nazi Germany and its allies).

The Soviet Union did severe genocide on white European people, while Hitler sent some non-whites to labor camps.(Max of 1 million non-whites died). While the USSR is responsible for the death of 50+ million white European people.




No but

- you're more polite than Hors is
- it's unlikely you'll cry yourself to sleep if something unhappy happened to the Russians

As I mentioned in the earlier post, Hors simply cut through all the BS while many of us remain polite for appearances sake even though we're no different from him.

North-Western Russians are genetically quite close to Estonians, if something happened to them. Then I would be quite sad. But if the majority mongrel population of Russia would die, then I wouldn't care. Russia shouldn't control non-Russian lands. If Russia wouldn't be imperialistic, then no part of Russia would be in Asia.




Yes yes, naughty boy. :D

Not just naughty, he hates all the people who go independent from the USSR. He's a closet commie on this forum, but he might be a out of closet commie in Russia. I wouldn't be surprised if he has posters of Stalin on his wall.




Dunno about that one. The problem is how does one define what a "Commie" supposedly is?

Opposite of Nationalist.



Possibly but there are many who have similar thoughts but who don't express them. Imo Hors is being a lot more honest than many others.

Another thing to keep in mind is that those comments are sometimes ironic, to make a point or designed to provoke and annoy. It's a jungle out there! :D

Who in the sane mind would wish the death of his/her fellow Europeans?

[Svarog]

Opposite of Nationalist.

Communism actually is pretty nationalistic, so this explanation of the term does not make much sense

[Äike]

Communism actually is pretty nationalistic, so this explanation of the term does not make much sense

A nationalistic government wouldn't kill it's own people. Do you know how many millions of Russians died under the Communist regime?

[Wildland]

Communism actually is pretty nationalistic, so this explanation of the term does not make much sense

That made me lol. USSR genocide of 50+ million white people is not nationalism, neither is North Korea treatment of its starving and dumbed down population.

[Svarog]

A nationalistic government wouldn't kill it's own people. Do you know how many millions of Russians died under the Communist regime?

Soviet Union was not the only communist country in the world, and even tho forms of 'communism' varied in each and every of them, not one of them was open to liberal and anti-nationalistic ideas, connecting Russia and communism is ridiculous as communism in theory never lived in not one of them including Russia, Stalinism would be more correct definition.


That made me lol. USSR genocide of 50+ million white people is not nationalism, neither is North Korea treatment of its starving and dumbed down population.

Living in someone else country instead of your own is not nationalism either and yet you call yourself one.

[Hors]

He openly has shown that he would wish the death of several European peoples.

"openly shown" here means that my posts were subject of your frivolous interpretation and that you actually cannot prove your point with an unambigious quote


Have I ever wished something like that? No I haven't, because I believe in the preservation of European peoples. I have also openly wished that the Russian economy would become the strongest in Europe. But Hors? He makes polls like this: "Who should rule the Baltics? a) Russia b) Sweden" etc...

So if Estonia is ruled by Russia or Sweden the Estonian people die? Not pointing out that it's just another example of your frivolous interpretation, I would like to ask how come Estonians survived 2 milleniums of the foreign rule? They have never been independent in the historical scale, as you know, and yet creatures like you still lurk around...



He's a closet commie, who wishes the death of SEVERAL European peoples and acts like a Troll, you can't deny that fact.

In other words, Karl cannot refute the facts I post and prefer to either ignore them or decry as false and make personal silly accusations against me.

[Hors]

A nationalistic government wouldn't kill it's own people. Do you know how many millions of Russians died under the Communist regime?

What share of responsibility for it should we attribute to the Estonian collaborators who made the deal with the Bolsheviks, betrayed and later destroyed the NW White army which was already fighting in the Petrograd suburbs?

I know, now we will hear the usual "independent Estonia" bitching, but anyway it's highly hypocritical for Estonians to drop crocodile tears about the victims of the regime which they helped to survive.

[Äike]

"openly shown" here means that my posts were subject of your frivolous interpretation and that you actually cannot prove your point with an unambigious quote
Prove? There's no point to search hundreds of quotes all saying the same thing. You say the same almost daily.




So if Estonia is ruled by Russia or Sweden the Estonian people die? Not pointing out that it's just another example of your frivolous interpretation, I would like to ask how come Estonians survived 2 milleniums of the foreign rule? They have never been independent in the historical scale, as you know, and yet creatures like you still lurk around...

2 millenniums? Damn, you have absolutely no knowledge about history.

Sweden was one of the best occupiers that Estonia has had. But Russia, that's a different story. The Estonian people have always suffered under Russian rule.

Estonians were ruled for about 700 years. 0BC-1100AD Estonia was a respectable Viking power around the Baltic Sea.

If the Estonian Vikings wouldn't have sacked Sigtuna(the former Swedish capital) then modern day Stockholm wouldn't exist. As there would have been no need for a new capital.




In other words, Karl cannot refute the facts I post and prefer to either ignore them or decry as false and make personal silly accusations against me.

You have picked the wrong person to lie to. I know history, try reading a few books and you'll agree with my points.

[RoyBatty]

The Soviet Union did severe genocide on white European people, while Hitler sent some non-whites to labor camps.(Max of 1 million non-whites died). While the USSR is responsible for the death of 50+ million white European people.


Please answer the following questions:

- What is the ethnicity of this "Soviet" people? :confused:
- Which countries, nations, peoples, individuals, royalty, industrialists and bankers plotted against the Czarist rule in Russia and who funded and assisted the Bolsheviks and Red Army to sieze power?



North-Western Russians are genetically quite close to Estonians, if something happened to them. Then I would be quite sad. But if the majority mongrel population of Russia would die, then I wouldn't care.


ok



Russia shouldn't control non-Russian lands. If Russia wouldn't be imperialistic, then no part of Russia would be in Asia.


It's not that simple. If Russia didn't control it somebody else would and that somebody else would soon be not only at Russia's throats but at Western and Northern Europe's throats too. Is that really what you want? :confused:



Not just naughty, he hates all the people who go independent from the USSR.


He hates Armenians, Georgians, Central Asians, Belarussians and Ukrainians? Are you sure? :confused:



He's a closet commie on this forum, but he might be a out of closet commie in Russia. I wouldn't be surprised if he has posters of Stalin on his wall.


As Svarog said, the term "commie" is meaningless. What is the definition of it?

For example, could it be somebody who wants to live in a commune while receiving an equal salary for work as everybody else who wants state control over the entire economy? If not then he probably isn't a communist.



Who in the sane mind would wish the death of his/her fellow Europeans?

Provided they don't wish for our deaths, nobody would or should.

However, Nazi Germany and its allies did wish for deaths of fellow Europeans so it's only reasonable to assume that these attitudes still remain. Therefore it's also reasonable to assume that the inheritors of the Soviet Union will harbour similar feelings against the inheritors of Nazi Germany.

[Äike]

What share of responsibility for it should we attribute to the Estonian collaborators who made the deal with the Bolsheviks, betrayed and later destroyed the NW White army which was already fighting in the Petrograd suburbs?

I have numerous books about the Estonian freedom war, that prove your trollish statements false. Estonia strongly supported the NW army. With numerous naval assaults in Ingria and near Petrograd. the NW army and the Estonian army did fight side by side.

the NW Army was disarmed after they started retreating and they had no real fighting power left.


I know, now we will hear the usual "independent Estonia" bitching, but anyway it's highly hypocritical for Estonians to drop crocodile tears about the victims of the regime which they helped to survive.

Your knowledge about history is zero. Please stop making yourself look silly.

Surely a small country like Estonia can conquer Russia and stop at the coast of the Pacific Ocean:D I'm flattered:wink

[Hors]

Prove? There's no point to search hundreds of quotes all saying the same thing. You say the same almost daily.

Good you admit you cannot prove your words.



2 millenniums? Damn, you have absolutely no knowledge about history.

Alternative history, Estonian version? Of course, no. But I'm sure you're going to entertain us all with it :D


Sweden was one of the best occupiers that Estonia has had.

I'm glad to hear that Estonian slaves were treated good at least by one master.


But Russia, that's a different story. The Estonian people have always suffered under Russian rule.

I gather their suffering became unbearable when Russians allowed them to live in cities.



Estonians were ruled for about 700 years. 0BC-1100AD Estonia was a respectable Viking power around the Baltic Sea.

A HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


If the Estonian Vikings wouldn't have sacked Sigtuna(the former Swedish capital) then modern day Stockholm wouldn't exist. As there would have been no need for a new capital.

Sigtuna was raided and burned by the Novgorod Karelian force, as Swedish chronicles unambigiously say.



You have picked the wrong person to lie to. I know history, try reading a few books and you'll agree with my points.

Typical arrogantly retarded Estonian attitude.

[Äike]

Please answer the following questions:

- What is the ethnicity of this "Soviet" people? :confused:
- Which countries, nations, peoples, individuals, royalty, industrialists and bankers plotted against the Czarist rule in Russia and who funded and assisted the Bolsheviks and Red Army to sieze power?

There were many people in the USSR, most of them were Slavic and Russian.

I would say that the Jews are to blame for the creation of the USSR. People like Trotzki.








It's not that simple. If Russia didn't control it somebody else would and that somebody else would soon be not only at Russia's throats but at Western and Northern Europe's throats too. Is that really what you want? :confused:

What about independent states? The people living in the Asian part of Russia aren't Russian.




He hates Armenians, Georgians, Central Asians, Belarussians and Ukrainians? Are you sure? :confused:

He hates everything that isn't Russian.



As Svarog said, the term "commie" is meaningless. What is the definition of it?



For example, could it be somebody who wants to live in a commune while receiving an equal salary for work as everybody else who wants state control over the entire economy? If not then he probably isn't a communist.

1. Wishes for the recreation of USSR with all it's "lost" territories.
2. Wishes that the genocide of European people(Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Belorussians, Ukrainians) would continue.



Provided they don't wish for our deaths, nobody would or should.

However, Nazi Germany and its allies did wish for deaths of fellow Europeans so it's only reasonable to assume that these attitudes still remain. Therefore it's also reasonable to assume that the inheritors of the Soviet Union will harbour similar feelings against the inheritors of Nazi Germany.

I don't support the actions of Nazi Germany and I'm quite happy that they didn't kill any Estonians.

[Svarog]

Gods, what have I done!! :D

[Hors]

I have numerous books about the Estonian freedom war, that prove your trollish statements false. Estonia strongly supported the NW army. With numerous naval assaults in Ingria and near Petrograd. the NW army and the Estonian army did fight side by side.

Yes, in Estonia proper where the Whites helped to defeat the Reds.

However, when the NW army started offensive on Petrograd, despite the arrangement (Estonian independence in exchange of military support) Estonians have allocated a laughable force of a couple of thousands, which later, when Estonians reached the deal with Bolsheviks behind the whites back, have deserted and opened the front to the Bolshevik forces, that's in the moment when the white formations were already in Petrograd.


the NW Army was disarmed after they started retreating and they had no real fighting power left.

See above.



Your knowledge about history is zero. Please stop making yourself look silly.

You will not silence the truth. Everybody will know that Estonians aree dishonest cowards who betrayed their comrades in arms to criminal Bolsheviks.



Surely a small country like Estonia can conquer Russia and stop at the coast of the Pacific Ocean:D I'm flattered:wink

All Bolshevik forces were contained by the Southern and Siberian White armies, Bolsheviks have only a handfull of rag-tag untrained formations to defend Petrograd. That's why Bolsheviks offered to cede Estonia and give a lot of Russia's gold to Estonians, and the latter gladly accepted the Juda's role.

[EWtt]

Alternative history, Estonian version? Of course, no. But I'm sure you're going to entertain us all with it :D

First off, your 2 millennium thing is BS. Estonia went under foreign rule due to the Northern crusades when the Germans decided it would be a good idea to Christianize the few pagans left in Europe.


I'm glad to hear that Estonian slaves were treated good at least by one master.

Estonians were always better off than Russians under their Mongol-Tatar overlords. Later, even though there was serfdom it was never as bad as it was for Russian peasants.


I gather their suffering became unbearable when Russians allowed them to live in cities.

Some Estonians lived in cities long before the Hanseatic era, they might have only lacked political rights in one period or another. Baltic Germans were still in charge here when Estland and Livland belonged to the Russian Empire.


Sigtuna was raided and burned by the Novgorod Karelian force, as Swedish chronicles unambigiously say.

Estonian vikings were known to raid Scandinavia in that era.

[Äike]

Good you admit you cannot prove your words.
Even this thread has posts by you that prove me right...





Alternative history, Estonian version? Of course, no. But I'm sure you're going to entertain us all with it :D

That's not alternative history and you know it.



I'm glad to hear that Estonian slaves were treated good at least by one master.

We were lucky, weren't we:)?




I gather their suffering became unbearable when Russians allowed them to live in cities.
Estonians lived in cities even before the Russian rule.





A HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



Sigtuna was raided and burned by the Novgorod Karelian force, as Swedish chronicles unambigiously say.


The Sigtuna-problem has recently been tackled by two Estonian historians, Enn Tarvel and Hain Rebas. They both come to similar conclusions. The following is an abstract of their thesis.

First,Here is a list of medieval and early modern sources that identify the ones responsible for the destruction instead of just referring to "pagans" as some of the earlier accounts:

1) Eric's Chronicle from about 1320 says the Karelians did it.
2) Olaus Petri's En Swensk Cröneka (1540s) claims it was the Estonians.
3) Laurentius Petri's Chronica Svekana (16th century) also blames the Estonians.
4) Johannes Magnus (16th century) "credits" the Estonians as well.

One would think Eric's Chronicle is most reliable since it is far older than the rest. However, the information on Sigtuna can be claimed to have been motivated by contemporary politics. Sweden was actively expanding to the east in the early 14th century and having conflicts with Novgorod over Karelia. It would have served a propagandist agenda to point out that the Novgorod-Karelian "problem" was an ancient one. In the chronicle, Russia is said to have rejoiced over the victory along with the Karelians, thus indicating that the latter were acting in alliance with the former.

Apart from that, what makes the account of Eric's chronicle even less reliable? First, there is no contemporary information about the Karelians ever making raids west of Häme (Tavastia) in Finland. There is hardly any historical evidence on ancient Karelian seamanship. More importantly, the Novgorod annals (or any other Russian annals, for that matter) make no mention of the destruction of Sigtuna. It is highly unlikely the "rejoicing" Russians would have kept silent about such a great victory.

On the other hand, we have several contemporary accounts of Estonian pirate activity in Scandinavia: ravishing Öland in 1170 with the Curonians (Saxo Grammaticus), raiding Listerby in 1203 (Heinrici Chronicon Livoniae), looting on the Swedish coast in 1226 (the same). What's more, both Eric's chronicle and Olaus Petri relate about an earl named Jon who got killed by the same pagans (Estonians according to Olaus) on Lake Mälaren. Jon's widow is then said to have gathered folk and slaughtered the enemies on "a hill that is called eesta skär ('Estonians' islet')". The islet is today known as Estbröte.


The Estonian Vikings were a very strong power. You can't argue that.



Typical arrogantly retarded Estonian attitude.

I'm not retarded but there's a retard in this thread, guess who:wink

[Äike]

Yes, in Estonia proper where the Whites helped to defeat the Reds.

However, when the NW army started offensive on Petrograd, despite the arrangement (Estonian independence in exchange of military support) Estonians have allocated a laughable force of a couple of thousands, which later, when Estonians reached the deal with Bolsheviks behind the whites back, have deserted and opened the front to the Bolshevik forces, that's in the moment when the white formations were already in Petrograd.



See above.

All of that is false.




You will not silence the truth. Everybody will know that Estonians aree dishonest cowards who betrayed their comrades in arms to criminal Bolsheviks.


The Estonians didn't like the Bolsheviks, a small country like Estonia can never conquer the world's biggest country. The war was hard and had lasted for 2 years, the fronts didn't move anymore. Peace had to be made.




All Bolshevik forces were contained by the Southern and Siberian White armies, Bolsheviks have only a handfull of rag-tag untrained formations to defend Petrograd. That's why Bolsheviks offered to cede Estonia and give a lot of Russia's gold to Estonians, and the latter gladly accepted the Juda's role.

Was that a joke, or are you truly serious?

[Hors]

First off, your 2 millennium thing is BS. Estonia went under foreign rule due to the Northern crusades when the Germans decided it would be a good idea to Christianize the few pagans left in Europe.

Sure, I exaggregated a bit, but the first state in Estonia was not Estonian, and Estonians had no national state till they were given it by the Judeo-Bolshevik in exchange of Estonian honour (betrayal of the Russian comrades in arms) and lives of millions if Russians (victims of the terror regime which Estonians helped to survive)



Estonians were always better off than Russians under their Mongol-Tatar overlords. Later, even though there was serfdom it was never as bad as it was for Russian peasants.

Mongol-Tatar overlords, in form of tax collectors, were presented for only several years. After that they were slaughtered and none were sent to replace them.

As for serfdom, not all Russians were serfs, while all Estonians were in slavery, not even second class citizens...



Some Estonians lived in cities long before the Hanseatic era, they might have only lacked political rights in one period or another.

:D


Baltic Germans were still in charge here when Estland and Livland belonged to the Russian Empire.

Oh, the beloved MASTERS!

Should we give you back to them? You must be very accustomed of being their slaves...


Estonian vikings were known to raid Scandinavia in that era.

As for Sigtuna, it were not Estonians, that's 100%

[Hors]

All of that is false.

Repeat it a thousand times, and still it's true.



The Estonians didn't like the Bolsheviks, a small country like Estonia can never conquer the world's biggest country. The war was hard and had lasted for 2 years, the fronts didn't move anymore. Peace had to be made.

Good you are not trying to refute what I say about the treachery of Estonians (we all know it's irrefutable) and just trying to find some lame exuses to whitewash henious betrayal of Estonians.

[Äike]

Sure, I exaggregated a bit, but the first state in Estonia was not Estonian, and Estonians had no national state till they were given it by the Judeo-Bolshevik in exchange of Estonian honour (betrayal of the Russian comrades in arms) and lives of millions if Russians (victims of the terror regime which Estonians helped to survive)

Ancient Estonian states: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Ancient_Estonian_counties.png

By the way... all of those states united when the crusaders came. There was an united Estonian state way before 1918.





As for serfdom, not all Russians were serfs, while all Estonians were in slavery, not even second class citizens...

False. Estonians were also citizens, you can't deny that.




:D

The truth makes you smile, good.



Oh, the beloved MASTERS!

Should we give you back to them? You must be very accustomed of being their slaves...


Do you have some kind of syndrome? You're not normal that's a fact. What's with you and slavery?



As for Sigtuna, it were not Estonians, that's 100%

Learn to read, Hors. Try reading my previous post. There are several historic sources that are 100% true. Even you, the troll, can't argue them.

[Äike]

Repeat it a thousand times, and still it's true.

Are you trying to be funny?





Good you are not trying to refute what I say about the treachery of Estonians (we all know it's irrefutable) and just trying to find some lame exuses to whitewash henious betrayal of Estonians.

Hors, Estonia was not a superpower. The Estonian army couldn't have marched to the Ural Mountains. They reached Petrograd with the NW army, but it didn't go very well there.

[Hors]

First,Here is a list of medieval and early modern sources that identify the ones responsible for the destruction instead of just referring to "pagans" as some of the earlier accounts:

1) Eric's Chronicle from about 1320 says the Karelians did it.
2) Olaus Petri's En Swensk Cröneka (1540s) claims it was the Estonians.
3) Laurentius Petri's Chronica Svekana (16th century) also blames the Estonians.
4) Johannes Magnus (16th century) "credits" the Estonians as well.

Stiop bullshitting people, please

1) Eric's Chronicle from about 1320 says the Karelians did it. - YES Plus it mentions RUSSIANS

+) Eric Olaus Chronicle - RUSSIANS and KARELIANS

2) Olaus Petri's En Swensk Cröneka (1540s) claims it was the Estonians. - Yes, but see below
3) Laurentius Petri's Chronica Svekana (16th century) also blames the Estonians.- Yes, but see below

4) Johannes Magnus (16th century) "credits" the Estonians as well. - NO. ESTONIANS and FINNS

+) Loscenius (?) (17th century) - ESTONIANS, KARELIANS and RUSSIANS
+) Mescenious - Curonians and Estonians
+) Ashaneus - RUSSIANS
+) Oxensterna - Russians

The earliest source is the most reliable one, and it says it were Karelians.
The second earliest source says it were Russians and Karelians.

Other sources are 300 years newer, and cannot be trusted.



It is highly unlikely the "rejoicing" Russians would have kept silent about such a great victory.

Ever heard about the Sigtuna gates in the Novgorod Sophia cathedral?

http://www.kirjazh.spb.ru/legend/3_1.jpg


PS.
Now, another thing. Several authors have mentioned Estonians, but in fact all peoples of the Eastern Baltic were known as ester, so it's just a generic term which cannot be applied to ancient Estonians automatically.

[EWtt]

Ever heard about the Sigtuna gates in the Novgorod Sophia cathedral?


Those are not from Sigtuna.

In fact, they were most probably wrought and sculptured by Magdeburg masters, most likely in years 1152 - 1154, for the Archbishop of Plock in Poland (where they were decorating one of the entrances into the Cathedral in Płock for around 250 years

The gates were acquired by the Novgorodians most probably in the end of the 15th century, probably by Archbishop Evfimii II, who loved Western art (as can be seen in the Gothic style incorporated into the Palace of Facets) or - according to another theory - in the first half of the 15th century [15] by duke of Novgorod and brother of the Polish king, Simeon Lingwen.[16] It is not known precisekt how the Novgorodians acquired the Płock Gates - most probably they were a gift from Archbishops of Płock or the dukes of Mazovia for the brother of Polish King Władysław Jagiełło, Duke Simeon Lingwen, or for Archbishop Evfimii II. There is also another theory that the gates had been looted from the cathedral in Płock by pagan Lithuanians in the thirteenth century, and later somehow made their way to Novgorod. The first theory is considered the most likely

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sophia_Cathedral_in_Novgorod

[Hors]

Hors, Estonia was not a superpower. The Estonian army couldn't have marched to the Ural Mountains. They reached Petrograd with the NW army, but it didn't go very well there.

And that's why they deserted, in the decisive moment of battle... :mad:

Don't try too hard, we know yoiu're a clown. If Estonians would have honoured their agreement with the NW Army instead of negotiating with the Bolsheviks and sent a substantial part of their forces instead of a small band Bolsheviks had no chance. Even in the end of the battle, after the desertion of the Estonian formation, the weakened NW Army was able to hold the ground against reinforced Bolshevik formation, and the Bolshevik reserves were completely depleted, they transferred to Petrograd everything they had, EVERYTHING. Even one Estonian division would have changed the course of history. But Estonians chose to get independence from Bolsheviks...

[Hors]

Those are not from Sigtuna.


Perhaps, its debatable (the gates have features which allow to attribute them to the Swedish art tradition), but anyway it does not change the fact that, despite your claims, the Sigtuna victory was well remembered in ancient Russia.

The very first chronicle which mentions Sigtuna also says that Russians commemorated the victory.

By the way, after Sigtuna was ravaged, Russian tradesmen were detained in Sweden and there was no trade between Novgorod and Sweden for 13 years.

[Äike]

And that's why they deserted, in the decisive moment of battle... :mad:

Don't try too hard, we know yoiu're a clown. If Estonians would have honoured their agreement with the NW Army instead of negotiating with the Bolsheviks and sent a substantial part of their forces instead of a small band Bolsheviks had no chance. Even in the end of the battle, after the desertion of the Estonian formation, the weakened NW Army was able to hold the ground against reinforced Bolshevik formation, and the Bolshevik reserves were completely depleted, they transferred to Petrograd everything they had, EVERYTHING. Even one Estonian division would have changed the course of history. But Estonians chose to get independence from Bolsheviks...

Estonia was fighting a 2 front war Against 2 very strong opponents. The Germans and the Bolsheviks. All of the forces on the Bolshevik northern front were sent to help the NW army. That's why the naval assaults.

And if you would read a few books, that would talk about the NW army around Petrograd. Then you would know, that it was the NW army that deserted:coffee:

[Äike]

Perhaps, its debatable (the gates have features which allow to attribute them to the Swedish art tradition), but anyway it does not change the fact that, despite your claims, the Sigtuna victory was well remembered in ancient Russia.

The very first chronicle which mentions Sigtuna also says that Russians commemorated the victory.

Copy-pasting from my previous post... Maybe you can read this time:coffee:

One would think Eric's Chronicle is most reliable since it is far older than the rest. However, the information on Sigtuna can be claimed to have been motivated by contemporary politics. Sweden was actively expanding to the east in the early 14th century and having conflicts with Novgorod over Karelia. It would have served a propagandist agenda to point out that the Novgorod-Karelian "problem" was an ancient one. In the chronicle, Russia is said to have rejoiced over the victory along with the Karelians, thus indicating that the latter were acting in alliance with the former.

Apart from that, what makes the account of Eric's chronicle even less reliable? First, there is no contemporary information about the Karelians ever making raids west of Häme (Tavastia) in Finland. There is hardly any historical evidence on ancient Karelian seamanship. More importantly, the Novgorod annals (or any other Russian annals, for that matter) make no mention of the destruction of Sigtuna. It is highly unlikely the "rejoicing" Russians would have kept silent about such a great victory.

You can't argue history:wink

[EWtt]

Now, another thing. Several authors have mentioned Estonians, but in fact all peoples of the Eastern Baltic were known as ester, so it's just a generic term which cannot be applied to ancient Estonians automatically.

That was the case before, but by the Viking age the Scandinavians already knew the difference between Estonians and Balts. They knew the names of our counties, like Virland for Virumaa, Eistland was probably used for mainland Estonia . By that era the word was always connected with Estonians. The contacts were actually so close that the Scandinavians even had personal names like Æistfari ("traveller to Estonia"), Æistulfr ("Wolf of Estonians") and Æistr ("Estonian").

[Hors]

Estonia was fighting a 2 front war Against 2 very strong opponents. The Germans and the Bolsheviks. All of the forces on the Bolshevik northern front were sent to help the NW army. That's why the naval assaults.

And if you would read a few books, that would talk about the NW army around Petrograd. Then you would know, that it was the NW army that deserted:coffee:

I'm so tired of silly BS you spread here.

When you celebrate the Victory Day?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Day#Victory_Day_on_June_23_in_Estonia

June 23

When the white offensive on Petrograd took place?

28 September

The Estonian army was not engaged elsewhere, or do you belive that rRussian generals were idiots counting on Estonian support while knowing that the Estonian divisions were employed elsewhere? No, they were not idiots, they're naive not realizing what sleazy treacherous bastards Estonian nationalists were!

[Äike]

I'm so tired of silly BS you spread here.

When you celebrate the Victory Day?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Day#Victory_Day_on_June_23_in_Estonia

June 23

When the white offensive on Petrograd took place?

28 September

The Estonian army was not engaged elsewhere, or do you belive that rRussian generals were idiots counting on Estonian support while knowing that the Estonian divisions were employed elsewhere? No, they were not idiots, they're naive not realizing what sleazy treacherous bastards Estonian nationalists were!

The Estonian army made a total of 3 naval assaults from the sea, while the rest of the army was marching with the NW army side-by-side. But the forces at Petrograd were overwhelming:(
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/61/Estonian_War_of_Independence%2C_map.JPG

[Hors]

Copy-pasting from my previous post... Maybe you can read this time:coffee:

One would think Eric's Chronicle is most reliable since it is far older than the rest. However, the information on Sigtuna can be claimed to have been motivated by contemporary politics.

No, it cannot. Karelians were not a threat for Swden for a very long time, a part of them were Sweden's subjects.

The mention of Russian could be motivated by politics of those days, but not Karelians.


Apart from that, what makes the account of Eric's chronicle even less reliable?

Even less? BS


First, there is no contemporary information about the Karelians ever making raids west of Häme (Tavastia) in Finland. [B]There is hardly any historical evidence on ancient Karelian seamanship.

It is evidently written by an idiot, i.e. Estonian researcher. The Swedish chronicles themselves mention Karelian incursions in Sweden proper many a time. Swedish chroniclers say they were crafty seamen.

There is also archeological evidence pointing to naval raids of Karelians to Gotland.



More importantly, the Novgorod annals (or any other Russian annals, for that matter) make no mention of the destruction of Sigtuna. It is highly unlikely the "rejoicing" Russians would have kept silent about such a great victory.

See above.


You can't argue history

Why are you wasting the time doing so?

[Hors]

The Estonian army made a total of 3 naval assaults from the sea, while the rest of the army was marching with the NW army side-by-side. But the forces at Petrograd were overwhelming:(
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/61/Estonian_War_of_Independence%2C_map.JPG

The rest of the army? it consisted of 80 000 soldiers, the Estonian corps in the NW Army had ~ 2000

Where were the rest? Drinking beer celebrating the victory over Latvians?

[Äike]

No, it cannot. Karelians were not a threat for Swden for a very long time, a part of them were Sweden's subjects.

The mention of Russian could be motivated by politics of those days, but not Karelians.



Even less? BS



It is evidently written by an idiot, i.e. Estonian researcher. The Swedish chronicles themselves mention Karelian incursions in Sweden proper many a time. Swedish chroniclers say they were crafty seamen.

There is also archeological evidence pointing to naval raids of Karelians to Gotland.




See above.



Why are you wasting the time doing so?

You're arguing written history, good luck with that. Everything is BS to you. I haven't seen a thing that wouldn't be BS to you. Is even your food BS:eek:?

I gave you several undeniable sources, but what do you do? You continue to make trollish posts.

[Äike]

The rest of the army? it consisted of 80 000 soldiers, the Estonian corps in the NW Army had ~ 2000

Source? There were way more Estonians then that.


Where were the rest? Drinking beer celebrating the victory over Latvians?

It wasn't victory over Latvians, it was victory over Germans. You once again prove that you know nothing about history:thumb001:

Estonians on the southern front were still busy. Victory day is only 1 battle where we crushed the German forces. The Estonian army still had to liberate Riga.

The troop ratio was quite even between the southern- and the eastern front, so your claims are false.

[Hors]

[QUOTE]You're arguing written history, good luck with that.

I'm not arguing it, I'm just citing it for your education.



Everything is BS to you.

Only your unsubstantiated opinions.


I gave you several undeniable sources, but what do you do? You continue to make trollish posts.

BS

[Äike]

I'm not arguing it, I'm just citing it for your education.

For my education? If you would be educated, then you wouldn't be in disagreement with me.





Only your unsubstantiated opinions.
This is coming from you? Your opinions are the most biased things you can find on The Apricity.




BS

Yeah, everything logical and true is BS too you. We have already realized that:wink

[Hors]

Source? There were way more Estonians then that.

http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/428264

Операция «Белый меч» [ [http://www.whiteforce.newmail.ru/chbelmec.htm Операция «Белый меч» /28 сентября — 23 октября 1919 года/] ] — боевая операция во время Гражданской войны в России, в ходе которого русская Северо-Западная армия Юденича при поддержке эстонской дивизии (всего 20 тысяч штыков и сабель: 17,5 тысяч русских и 2,5 тысячи эстонцев) попыталась захватить Петроград осенью 1919 года.



It wasn't victory over Latvians, it was victory over Germans. You once again prove that you know nothing about history:thumb001:

You once again prove that Estonians are retarded and don't understand jokes/sarcasm. Hello to Inese! :cool:


Estonians on the southern front were still busy. Victory day is only 1 battle where we crushed the German forces. The Estonian army still had to liberate Riga.

BS

The offensive on Petrograd started when the Estonian forces were not engaged in battle.

So, 2500 Estonian soldiers out of more than 80 000.

So much for your independent Estonian BS :rolleyes2:

[Hors]

For my education? If you would be educated, then you wouldn't be in disagreement with me.

Facts disagree with you, not me.



This is coming from you? Your opinions are the most biased things you can find on The Apricity.

Opinions are opinions. Deal with the facts.



Yeah, everything logical and true is BS too you. We have already realized that

It's rather every BS which suits your agenda seems logical and true to you. :coffee:

[Äike]

http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/428264

Операция «Белый меч» [ [http://www.whiteforce.newmail.ru/chbelmec.htm Операция «Белый меч» /28 сентября — 23 октября 1919 года/] ] — боевая операция во время Гражданской войны в России, в ходе которого русская Северо-Западная армия Юденича при поддержке эстонской дивизии (всего 20 тысяч штыков и сабель: 17,5 тысяч русских и 2,5 тысячи эстонцев) попыталась захватить Петроград осенью 1919 года.




You once again prove that Estonians are retarded and don't understand jokes/sarcasm. Hello to Inese! :cool:



BS

The offensive on Petrograd started when the Estonian forces were not engaged in battle.

So, 2500 Estonian soldiers out of more than 80 000.

So much for your independent Estonian BS :rolleyes2:

Post sources that doesn't end with .ru Russian propaganda is not a source. Everyone knows the quality of Russian "historians"

[Hors]

Post sources that doesn't end with .ru Russian propaganda is not a source. Everyone knows the quality of Russian "historians"

FO, moron

[Äike]

Facts disagree with you, not me.

If you would read my posts, then you would understand that the facts disagree with you, not me.




Opinions are opinions. Deal with the facts.
I am dealing with the facts, as they are correct and support my true opinion.




It's rather every BS which suits your agenda seems logical and true to you. :coffee:

I don't believe in BS, like you do:wink

[Äike]

FO, moron

Hahaha, typical troll. You can only use curse words when your view is wrong.

I'm not a moron, I'm a guy who is well read about history, that's why I don't buy your false views.

[Hors]

If you would read my posts, then you would understand that the facts disagree with you, not me.

Your posts contain no facts, only BS opinions of yours



I am dealing with the facts, as they are correct and support my true opinion.

No, you don't have any facts to back your ridiculous claims.


I don't believe in BS, like you do

Why do you keep posting it?


Hahaha, typical troll. You can only use curse words when your view is wrong.

I'm not a moron, I'm a guy who is well read about history, that's why I don't buy your false views.

Nah, you're a genuine moron. You asked for a source, you were given it. If you question its validity, present another source. You cannot do it? Shut up, finally.

[Äike]

Your posts contain no facts, only BS opinions of yours



No, you don't have any facts to back your ridiculous claims.



Why do you keep posting it?



Nah, you're a genuine moron. You asked for a source, you were given it. If you question its validity, present another source. You cannot do it? Shut up, finally.

Dear Hors, I no longer see a point to post in this thread. As the debate between us has turned into flaming, mostly because of you."FO Moron, retard" etc...

Your views are wrong, deal with it.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Boerseun, you'd better explain those differences as you perceive them because they are very relevant. The "Boer" vs "Afrikaner" debate is a bit confusing and there are no absolute definitions to either term so (for the benefit of readers her who aren't familiar with the issue) you'll need to explain exactly what your definitions are and what you mean.

My view is that that white Afrikaans speaking ppl who

- feel ashamed to be white and Afrikaans
- suffer from guilt trips
- vote DA
- watch soaps like 7e Laan
- admire Mandela
- would rather have their goddamn rugby than an independent homeland

are a waste of space.

How in heavens name do you know that.
You are spot on.
To elaborate a bit.
The Boer started off in the Cape,like the Afrikaner.
They started trekking to the Freestate and Transvaal mainly
The built their farms etc etc and "dondered" the crap out of the Brits during the Boer wars but it ended in a stale mate in the 2nd.
They are farmers not politicians.Their children and wifes received a dismal time in the war in the concentration camps(the 1st concentration camp erected in the world and by the Brits.)
They too could not come to terms with who is boss and who is not,which resulted in many bosses,but they all had one thing in common.
Honor and a good dose of respect for their God.

The Afrikaner was also in the Cape but branched out as business men/politician throughout South Africa and left the coloreds-their seed-behind.
After Jan Smuts they actually saw the halsstarrige Boer as a pain in the ass and dumb.(they were naive not dumb) The Boer saw Jan Smuts as a traitor going to bed with the Brits etc etc.
As a business man they forgot the 1st commandment "honest businees dealings with the public"

Of the 500 Boers I met intimately not one took me for a ride, I could trust their word,without resorting to an oath on the Bible.
Of the 3000 Afrikaners I met and dealt with not one stuck to their word,be it in trade-insurance-labour (CCMA)-politics
This is not to say that all of the Afrikaners are worthless,but it is striking that they have this"gene" to bullsh@t and perfected backstabbing.
I would not make comments on how they behaved towards the blacks in the street with regard to business deals,but they were taking them for one hell of a septic ride.

It is said that when you cut a Hollander in two,you get 2 Jews.
I am saying that when you cut an Afrikaner in two you get a septic tank and a French drain for mahalla

More here.
http://infao5501.ag5.mpi-sb.mpg.de:8080/topx/archive?link=Wikipedia-Lip6-2/2953.xml&style
Please note that the article is not really my experience

[Hors]

Dear Hors, I no longer see a point to post in this thread. As the debate between us has turned into flaming, mostly because of you."FO Moron, retard" etc...


Nah, you turned it into flaming because you have no reliable sources to back your claims.

- When you have the source which states the number of listed men in the Estonian corps in the NW army significantly higher than 2500 - come back
- When you have the source proving that the bulk of the Estonian army was engaged in combat in September-November of 1919, during the offensive on Petrograd (operation "White Sword") - come back
- When you have the source proving that Swedish chroniclers named Karelians as perpetrators of the raid on Sigtuna because ofpolitical reasons - come back
- When you have the source disproving that Karelians took Abo several years before Sigtuna (and it's a small distance between them,way smaller than between Karelia and Abo) - come back

And so on and on and on

But you'l be back anyway, just repreatign your silly lies again and again and again and ignoring the sources I post. That's your village nature, typical for retarded nationalists.

[Loki]

How in heavens name do you know that.
You are spot on.
To elaborate a bit.
The Boer started off in the Cape,like the Afrikaner.
They started trekking to the Freestate and Transvaal mainly
The built their farms etc etc and "dondered" the crap out of the Brits during the Boer wars but it ended in a stale mate in the 2nd.
They are farmers not politicians.Their children and wifes received a dismal time in the war in the concentration camps(the 1st concentration camp erected in the world and by the Brits.)
They too could not come to terms with who is boss and who is not,which resulted in many bosses,but they all had one thing in common.
Honor and a good dose of respect for their God.

The Afrikaner was also in the Cape but branched out as business men/politician throughout South Africa and left the coloreds-their seed-behind.


That contains some truth but is way too generalising and simplistic.

Many Boers are/were politicians and many Afrikaners from the Cape are farmers, and have always been. I don't think one can ascribe one occupation to either. If the Boers did not have politicians and leaders, they would not have been able to found republics such as Potchefstroom, Lydenburg, Nuwe Republiek, Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek, and so forth.

However I think you are right in that many of the National Party politicians had Cape origins -- you could hear it in their accents. And the media as well. Seems to have been dominated by Cape-accented Afrikaners. In my experience. Where I grew up, a Cape accent was something out of the ordinary to hear on the streets, even more weird than English.

[Äike]

Nah, you turned it into flaming because you have no reliable sources to back your claims.

- When you have the source which states the number of listed men in the Estonian corps in the NW army significantly higher than 2500 - come back
- When you have the source proving that the bulk of the Estonian army was engaged in combat in September-November of 1919, during the offensive on Petrograd (operation "White Sword") - come back

As the offensive near Petrograd was part of the Estonian Independence War then most historic literature about it is in Estonian. There are enough sources, just not in a language that you would understand. There were only 6000 soldiers in the NW-army, even with the manpower from Estonia. The forces were over numbered by the Bolshevik ones. An argument on this topic is pointless, as the NW-Army would have failed anyway.


- When you have the source proving that Swedish chroniclers named Karelians as perpetrators of the raid on Sigtuna because ofpolitical reasons - come back
- When you have the source disproving that Karelians took Abo several years before Sigtuna (and it's a small distance between them,way smaller than between Karelia and Abo) - come back

And so on and on and on

But you'l be back anyway, just repreatign your silly lies again and again and again and ignoring the sources I post. That's your village nature, typical for retarded nationalists.

For the 3rd time I have to copy-paste my post?

The Sigtuna-problem has recently been tackled by two Estonian historians, Enn Tarvel and Hain Rebas. They both come to similar conclusions. The following is an abstract of their thesis.

First, here is a list of medieval and early modern sources that identify the ones responsible for the destruction instead of just referring to "pagans" as some of the earlier accounts:

1) Eric's Chronicle from about 1320 says the Karelians did it.
2) Olaus Petri's En Swensk Cröneka (1540s) claims it was the Estonians.
3) Laurentius Petri's Chronica Svekana (16th century) also blames the Estonians.
4) Johannes Magnus (16th century) "credits" the Estonians as well.

One would think Eric's Chronicle is most reliable since it is far older than the rest. However, the information on Sigtuna can be claimed to have been motivated by contemporary politics. Sweden was actively expanding to the east in the early 14th century and having conflicts with Novgorod over Karelia. It would have served a propagandist agenda to point out that the Novgorod-Karelian "problem" was an ancient one. In the chronicle, Russia is said to have rejoiced over the victory along with the Karelians, thus indicating that the latter were acting in alliance with the former.

Apart from that, what makes the account of Eric's chronicle even less reliable? First, there is no contemporary information about the Karelians ever making raids west of Häme (Tavastia) in Finland. There is hardly any historical evidence on ancient Karelian seamanship. More importantly, the Novgorod annals (or any other Russian annals, for that matter) make no mention of the destruction of Sigtuna. It is highly unlikely the "rejoicing" Russians would have kept silent about such a great victory.

On the other hand, we have several contemporary accounts of Estonian pirate activity in Scandinavia: ravishing Öland in 1170 with the Curonians (Saxo Grammaticus), raiding Listerby in 1203 (Heinrici Chronicon Livoniae), looting on the Swedish coast in 1226 (the same). What's more, both Eric's chronicle and Olaus Petri relate about an earl named Jon who got killed by the same pagans (Estonians according to Olaus) on Lake Mälaren. Jon's widow is then said to have gathered folk and slaughtered the enemies on "a hill that is called eesta skär ('Estonians' islet')". The islet is today known as Estbröte.

[Loki]

The "Boer" vs "Afrikaner" debate is a bit confusing and there are no absolute definitions to either term ...


Indeed, very true. What really "grinds my gears" is when non-South African internet poseurs try and claim some truths with regards to the above, yet they have no clue what they are talking about ... and have not even been to South Africa. The same can be said of ignorant, sub-100 IQ Identity Afrikaners who are spreading nonsense. I am not referring to Boerseun at all, though.



My view is that that white Afrikaans speaking ppl who

- feel ashamed to be white and Afrikaans
- suffer from guilt trips
- vote DA
- watch soaps like 7e Laan
- admire Mandela
- would rather have their goddamn rugby than an independent homeland

are a waste of space.

That's a good summary. :thumb001: A waste of space and worth to be spat upon. I think Charlize Theron would clearly fall into this category, although I guess she's just after the money. Can't say I blame her. I don't know why people find her attractive though. :confused: Seems a common-looking Boer girl to me, nothing special.

[Hors]

As the offensive near Petrograd was part of the Estonian Independence War then most historic literature about it is in Estonian. There are enough sources, just not in a language that you would understand.

Unlike you. I'm smart enought to use an on-line translator.



There were only 6000 soldiers in the NW-army, even with the manpower from Estonia. The forces were over numbered by the Bolshevik ones. An argument on this topic is pointless, as the NW-Army would have failed anyway.

Are all Estonians that retarded?

If 6000 made it to Petrograd and managed to fight without losing ground for months, what would have the entire Estonian army done, 80 000 soldiers? Or even a half of it?

You make Estonians look like sleazy stinky bastards... Looks like your agenda is anti-Estonian.




For the 3rd time I have to copy-paste my post?

You should read my reply to your post above. When you have something new to say, come back.

Here's a synopsis for you:

1) Eric's Chronicle from about 1320 says the Karelians did it. - It mentions Russians as well

Another Eric says it were Karelians and Russians.


2) Olaus Petri's En Swensk Cröneka (1540s) claims it was the Estonians.
3) Laurentius Petri's Chronica Svekana (16th century) also blames the Estonians.

Both Petri write about the "ester", that was the generic name for all East Baltic peoples.


4) Johannes Magnus (16th century) "credits" the Estonians as well.

- Don't know about htis one. There are several other authors who mention Russians.



One would think Eric's Chronicle is most reliable since it is far older than the rest. However, the information on Sigtuna can be claimed to have been motivated by contemporary politics. Sweden was actively expanding to the east in the early 14th century and having conflicts with Novgorod over Karelia. It would have served a propagandist agenda to point out that the Novgorod-Karelian "problem" was an ancient one. In the chronicle, Russia is said to have rejoiced over the victory along with the Karelians, thus indicating that the latter were acting in alliance with the former.

The mentioning of Russians could be polical, but not Karelians. Karelians were not a threat for centuries by the time of the chronicler.


Apart from that, what makes the account of Eric's chronicle even less reliable? First, there is no contemporary information about the Karelians ever making raids west of Häme (Tavastia) in Finland.

Yes, there is. Karelians took Abo several years before Sigtuna. They have raided Gotland as well.

The Eric's chronicle is full of information about Karelian raids in Central Sweden.


There is hardly any historical evidence on ancient Karelian seamanship.

The evidence is abundant.



More importantly, the Novgorod annals (or any other Russian annals, for that matter) make no mention of the destruction of Sigtuna. It is highly unlikely the "rejoicing" Russians would have kept silent about such a great victory.

The victory was remembered by the people. The evidence is the Sigtuna gates.

One has to keep in mind that most of the Novgorod chronicles were lost. So we have no direct information about Rurik origins and pre-Rurik Novgorod...

[The Lawspeaker]

Hors--- man.. if your countrymen could read this: do you think they would be proud of you ?

I doubt it....

[Svarog]

I doubt anyone would be proud of anything written in this thread but it is also unfair to blame it on one person.

[RoyBatty]

......I find it a collaboration as for me Germany was an invader, and no matter how much I love other Europeans, try to step on my land, tell me your the boss around and ask me to work for you, am gonna be the first to put a bullet between your eyes and same works for the Third Reich, I would never be proud if my grandparents fought for Germany instead of their own country, and I am not buying crap Aryan Europe for a greater good, I do well on my own with my own.


That's what the EU is today, a modern version of the Third Reich but this time run by elites from the strongest countries instead of it being a purely German project. They swallow up countries "for the greater good of the European family" blah blah blah but what is really happening is that these countries lose their independence to the ruling mafia from Brussels while the land, property, industries and resources are grabbed by the rich elites.

In the end the nation whose land it used to be will be reduced to being serfs working for the modern equivalent of feudal landlords.

[Hors]

Hors--- man.. if your countrymen could read this: do you think they would be proud of you ?

I doubt it....

I don't. Not after our Estonian friends blurted their opinion about my countrymen being mongrels out.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't. Not after our Estonian friends blurted their opinion about my countrymen being mongrels out.
I am sure they would be ashamed of you. You are giving your country a bad name. Consider yourself as "representing your country" online.
I am glad that we have a couple of more Russians so we can get a more balanced view.

Are you really Russian btw ? And not a settler in Talinn, Riga or some other place ? Or someone that learned to speak Russian ? Or perhaps a Georgian or Ukrainian ?

[Äike]

I don't. Not after our Estonian friends blurted their opinion about my countrymen being mongrels out.

Original Russian lands have no mongrels, but as Russia was and is a very imperialistic country, it controls lands that aren't Russian. There comes the word "mongrels".

The total assimilation of everything non-Russian is also slowly destroying the Russian gene pool.

Didn't I say that NW-Russia is genetically similar to Estonia? They can't be mongrels.

Have I ever said, "Russians are mongrels" I haven't. I said that there are mongrels living on Russian territory. The vast territories in Asia should be separated from Russia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Map_of_the_Russian_Empire_at_its_height_in_1866.sv g/800px-Map_of_the_Russian_Empire_at_its_height_in_1866.sv g.png

That is just abnormal.

[Svarog]

That's what the EU is today, a modern version of the Third Reich but this time run by elites from the strongest countries instead of it being a purely German project. They swallow up countries "for the greater good of the European family" blah blah blah but what is really happening is that these countries lose their independence to the ruling mafia from Brussels while the land, property, industries and resources are grabbed by the rich elites.

In the end the nation whose land it used to be will be reduced to being serfs working for the modern equivalent of feudal landlords.

Exactly, identities of nations are lost, also culture, tradition, customs etc, I wholeheartedly hope Serbia will never enter the EU.


Consider yourself as "representing your country" online.

Everyone of us here represent our personalities first and not our countries, if it would be so, I would be first to act differently than I do now.

Gotta respect the Hors for the fact that he gives no fake smiles, I like such people.

[The Lawspeaker]

Everyone of us here represent our personalities first and not our countries, if it would be so, I would be first to act differently than I do now.Well... I am sure that if a Dutchman or a Serb like yourself would behave badly online then it could reflect upon the way the next Dutchman or Serb is greeted.
Like you (I think) I am well aware of what flag I am flying. And if I wanted to be a troll I would most definitely not fly my own flag but one of a country that I loathed :D


I am sure that no one would object if I would fly this flag when I want to troll someone:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/flags/sa-lgflag.gif
(Saudi Arabia)

[Loki]

The vast territories in Asia should be separated from Russia.


And given to the Chinese? I think it's good that a European power controls these vast swathes of lands and resources. In the future it may become very handy indeed. :) Btw, the vast lands of the Russian Federation are very sparsely populated, and the native, non-Russian peoples who live there are not plentiful in numbers ... much like the Native North Americans. Should America and Canada give the lands back to them as well? Perhaps, but I can't see how they will manage it appropriately.

[RoyBatty]

How in heavens name do you know that.
You are spot on.


Because it takes one to know one. I am an ethnic Afrikaner. :)



After Jan Smuts they actually saw the halsstarrige Boer as a pain in the ass and dumb.(they were naive not dumb)


Unfortunately it is a huge problem for the Afrikaners / Boers that many are often naive and not "up to speed" on things although one could say the same about many other white cultures.



The Boer saw Jan Smuts as a traitor going to bed with the Brits etc etc.
As a business man they forgot the 1st commandment "honest businees dealings with the public"


Realpolitik can be hard for people to understand sometimes. Sometimes unpopular choices need to be made in order to achieve longer term results.



Of the 500 Boers I met intimately not one took me for a ride, I could trust their word,without resorting to an oath on the Bible.
Of the 3000 Afrikaners I met and dealt with not one stuck to their word,be it in trade-insurance-labour (CCMA)-politics
This is not to say that all of the Afrikaners are worthless,but it is striking that they have this"gene" to bullsh@t and perfected backstabbing.


Right



I would not make comments on how they behaved towards the blacks in the street with regard to business deals,but they were taking them for one hell of a septic ride.


Aha



It is said that when you cut a Hollander in two,you get 2 Jews.
I am saying that when you cut an Afrikaner in two you get a septic tank and a French drain for mahalla


LOL!!! :D

My granddad used to say to "be watchful of the Jew" when doing business with them but to be even more careful with "Boer se kind" aka Afrikaners. There is a lot of truth to those words, I know :)


My own definition:

I'd describe myself alternately as Afrikaans, an Afrikaner or a Boer. I don't consider any term to be better or worse than the other because for me it describes the same thing. Of course some are "OK" as people while others are less so.

The rule of thumb to spot the crooks is to be suspicious of the ones who promise too much and who are excessively friendly or, apparently, generous. :thumb001:

[RoyBatty]

Gotta respect the Hors for the fact that he gives no fake smiles, I like such people.

I second that. I'll add that I even prefer an "honest" enemy to a false friend. :thumb001:

[Hors]

Original Russian lands have no mongrels, but as Russia was and is a very imperialistic country, it controls lands that aren't Russian. There comes the word "mongrels".

The total assimilation of everything non-Russian is also slowly destroying the Russian gene pool.

Didn't I say that NW-Russia is genetically similar to Estonia? They can't be mongrels.

Have I ever said, "Russians are mongrels" I haven't. I said that there are mongrels living on Russian territory. The vast territories in Asia should be separated from Russia.

You claimed that majority of population of Russia are mongrels. Russians make up 80% of population of Russia, and most of the the rest is Ukrainians, Belarussians and Finnics.

Case closed. :mad:

[Wildland]

Exactly, identities of nations are lost, also culture, tradition, customs etc, I wholeheartedly hope Serbia will never enter the EU.



Everyone of us here represent our personalities first and not our countries, if it would be so, I would be first to act differently than I do now.

Gotta respect the Hors for the fact that he gives no fake smiles, I like such people.

But we are not speaking about our personalities, we are speaking of our nations, so with that it takes responsibility to represent it in the best manner.

[Hors]

I am sure they would be ashamed of you.

It only shows how little you know about Russia and Russians.



You are giving your country a bad name. Consider yourself as "representing your country" online.

A bad name is better than being a conformist tolerating discrimination and humiliation of Russia, Russians and their past and present.


I am glad that we have a couple of more Russians so we can get a more balanced view.

One more.


Are you really Russian btw ? And not a settler in Talinn, Riga or some other place ? Or someone that learned to speak Russian ? Or perhaps a Georgian or Ukrainian ?

I'm a Great Russian residing in Moscow. I have no blood other than Great Russian in several generations I'm aware of and stem from a region where it is highly unlikely for locals to have any non-Russian blood in historical times (i.e. before the time when the Russian people was formed).

Now, there is a saying that if you split a Hollander in two you'll get two Jews... looks like there is much truth in it.

[RoyBatty]

Original Russian lands have no mongrels, but as Russia was and is a very imperialistic country, it controls lands that aren't Russian. There comes the word "mongrels".


According to that definition Germany, France, UK, USA etc are also mongrel. Are you trying to win friends or what? :D



The total assimilation of everything non-Russian is also slowly destroying the Russian gene pool.


Look no further than Western Europe for examples of ethnic genepool destruction.



Have I ever said, "Russians are mongrels" I haven't. I said that there are mongrels living on Russian territory. The vast territories in Asia should be separated from Russia.


And controlled by who instead? Chinese? Rothschild? The USA? :confused:

Madeleine Albright (Clinton era Zionazi responsible for terrorising Serbia) once said that "Siberia held too many resources for Russia alone". (She denies making the claim but this idea about splitting up Russia often appears in US / EU political circles).

If Russia should "give up" it's territory can we expect others to do the same? I somehow doubt it.

[RoyBatty]

But we are not speaking about our personalities, we are speaking of our nations, so with that it takes responsibility to represent it in the best manner.

If that's the case then what's the idea with having a picture of Paulo di Canio doing the "Heil Hitler" to his adoring Ultras in your signature?

Is that really the "best way to represent a country"?? Do you think that the majority of Italians would be happy to be thought of as Nazis? :D :p

[Loyalist]

Is that really the "best way to represent a country"?? Do you think that the majority of Italians would be happy to be thought of as Nazis? :D :p

Fans of the Croatian national team seem to think so.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2d9tfv9.jpg

[Svarog]

He is a Macedonian, whatever that is, who is resident in Sweden with fetish on Italian hooliganism, yes, I would say an unique individual.

Loyalist, yes, all 59 of them.

[Wildland]

If that's the case then what's the idea with having a picture of Paulo di Canio doing the "Heil Hitler" to his adoring Ultras in your signature?

Is that really the "best way to represent a country"?? Do you think that the majority of Italians would be happy to be thought of as Nazis? :D :p

He is actually saluting the fascist Roman way, and majority of the Italians see themselves as fascist as what I have been told.
Lazio is a soccer club, the supporters are pro-Italian that don't accept non-white players in their team, Di Canio is just using an ancient way to show his support to his supporters.
He actually got banned to play soccer if he continued to salute, that is actually low form of forbidding our right to express our history and culture.

[Wildland]

Fans of the Croatian national team seem to think so.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2d9tfv9.jpg

Croatia is one united nation:

mLf7B1mA5bc

[RoyBatty]

Fans of the Croatian national team seem to think so.


Indeed they do :D


Croatia is one united nation

Yes they are which makes the constant Western sniping and disinformation against Serbia about it being "fascist and imperialistic" laughable. The Croats were used as a tool by the EU and USA to help dismember and destroy Yugoslavia and to harass Serbia so that NATO could gain control over that region and Germany / Austria can gain control over Mittel Europa. Holy Roman Empire part II. :(

[DarkZarathustra]

Have I ever said, "Russians are mongrels" I haven't.

That's Inesa who consider's Russian's to be mongrel's.

[DarkZarathustra]

And if I wanted to be a troll
Trust me, Hors is not a troll, his opinion is very common among Russian's. What he say it's the only version of history that is teached in school's.

We have liberal and neonazi revisionist's but they are enough rare and not popular at all...

[The Lawspeaker]

Then (forgive me) what a horrible people the Russians are...

[DarkZarathustra]

Then (forgive me) what a horrible people the Russians are...
You just should read/watch Russian resources, too when checking news. And maybe like Oswiu visite our country to see everything with your own eyes.

Turn off your TV, they produce Western point of view (Western plutocracy's) about Russia.

[Loki]

Turn off your TV, they produce Western point of view (Western plutocracy's) about Russia.

This is very true ... I agree strongly. Also, Lawspeaker, do yourself a favour and look at some other sources, like Russia Today (http://www.russiatoday.com/). They will present to you a different picture altogether, one that you will not find on the BBC or CNN ...

[The Lawspeaker]

No.. thank you. If your country(men) condone(s) genocide and agression then I want nothing to do with them. And with that I mean nothing.
Then your country is no better then Nazi Germany.


This is very true ... I agree strongly. Also, Lawspeaker, do yourself a favour and look at some other sources, like Russia Today (http://www.russiatoday.com/). They will present to you a different picture altogether, one that you will not find on the BBC or CNN .I used to read it. It is very much like Pravda or the Volkischer Beobachter.

[Hors]

That's Inesa who consider's Russian's to be mongrel's.

The mods have kindly removed the post where Karl designated majority of population of Russia as mongrels.

If you're interested, perhaps the mods still may be in position to retrieve the original post for you.

[Hors]

No.. thank you. If your country(men) condone(s) genocide and agression then I want nothing to do with them. And with that I mean nothing.
Then your country is no better then Nazi Germany.

I used to read it. It is very much like Pravda or the Volkischer Beobachter.

Regular Cloggy BS. Even I never read Pravda.

And, of course, nobody in Russia condones genocide (at least when it's not about Chechens and Co) or aggressive wars (when they're not about defending our co-patriots).

[The Lawspeaker]

Regular Cloggy BS. Even I never read Pravda.

And, of course, nobody in Russia condones genocide (at least when it's not about Chechens and Co) or aggressive wars (when they're not about defending our co-patriots).
Your countrymen shouldn't have been there in the first place.. and your countries history is one of aggression.
Your countries specialty is murder.. while your country is a mess. The only thing that sets you apart from Africans is the color of your skin.

Insulting other nationalities seems to be your specialty, Russki. Is your mother proud of you?

[DarkZarathustra]

genocide and agression

What do you speak about?


Then your country is no better then Nazi Germany.
I was in my teen's big fan of Third Reich. :D Ah that totalitarian past. :D


I used to read it. It is very much like Pravda or the Volkischer Beobachter.
LOL You're talking like "Russian" Jewish liberal's. It's pity. :(

[The Lawspeaker]

Read Russian history, Zealous. Do it for once- and leave those Russki books on the read how other people perceived your history.
You're in for a nasty shock !

[RoyBatty]

Even as a kid I thought the Soviets / Russians were great. I also liked certain aspects about the Nazis but didn't think so much of their grand lebensraum scheme. Western history books and "facts" about Russia (or Nazi Germany for that matter) have never particularly interested me. They contain too much fiction, revisionism, ignorance and downright lies coupled with whitewashing of their own actions.

:D :thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

Ooh come on Roy. You are from South Africa- what do you know ?

[RoyBatty]

Ooh come on Roy. You are from South Africa- what do you know ?

Quite a lot for somebody who grew up with an elephant for a pet, ancestral spirits for best friends and parents with porcupine needles through their noses.

Thanks for asking massa :D

[DarkZarathustra]

Read Russian history, Zealous. Do it for once- and leave those Russki books on the read how other people perceived your history.
You're in for a nasty shock !
LOL Did you think I don't know Russian history?


Your countries specialty is murder.. while your country is a mess. The only thing that sets you apart from Africans is the color of your skin.
It would be better if you say it about Chechen's. Even German neonazi mostly will disagree with your ridiculous so called opinion. :mad:

You should apologize for your word's.

[The Lawspeaker]

"Sighs" You only seem to distrust whatever the Westerners come up with which kinda leaves me to wonder, Roy.
What side would you be on if Russia would invade Europe ?

A fifth columnist ? Now I don't trust my press either but I trust the Russians less.





You should apologize for your word's.
Then you can wait untill Hell freezes over. Ooh no wait- untill October then because then winter will set in your genocidal homeland.

[Inese]

Hm what is this??? :confused: Many pages to discuss with a retarded idiot person like Hors it is a total waste of time!!! Hors is a super example what the stereotype Russian character and nature is ---- there are civilisized humans and there are Russian!! :coffee:

I only have to say two points!!! :

1. Latvians are very very proud of the Latvian SS!! They have fought against the right and true enemy! The right and true enemy was never the Germans but always the Russians.

2. Picture and videos say more than text. All you need to know about relationship of Latvia with Russia is here: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5045 Watch the last two videos for " Russian civilisation!!" please okay!?:rolleyes2:


That's Inesa who consider's Russian's to be mongrel's.
Hm not all but many. And i will correct myself!! Many Russian are not only mongrels but retarted mongrels.

Found a poto of Hors in his daily work :
http://www.reiseabenteuer-gus.de/wissenswertes/russische-trinkgewonheiten.jpg-----
" Shut up you Baltic countrys Russia is the master and you have to respect me!!":jump0000::bump2:

[The Lawspeaker]

To all those people here that seem to think that Russia will come as a white knight to rid of us Islam.
We all know where the influence of the Left came from during the last 60/70 years: Moscow. Jews - but still Moscow and guess where those Jews learned their business. The old Russian empire.

Russia is not a solution. Russia is the problem.

[Hors]

Then you can wait untill Hell freezes over. Ooh no wait- untill October then because then winter will set in your genocidal homeland.

Looks like TA's Russophobs just lost a(nother) "good Russian". :thumb001:

[DarkZarathustra]

"Sighs" You only seem to distrust whatever the Westerners come up with which kinda leaves me to wonder, Roy.
What side would you be on if Russia would invade Europe ?

A fifth columnist ? Now I don't trust my press either but I trust the Russians less.



Then you can wait untill Hell freezes over. Ooh no wait- untill October then because then winter will set in your genocidal homeland.
Like German neonazi would tell - you're Untermensch. That's that.

[The Lawspeaker]

Perhaps in the end- if we need a preservationist forum- the people that should be outside are Russians.
Because they dream of conquest, looting and murder. Their words are full of it and so are their deeds. Very much like our traditional enemy Islam.

[Svarog]

I love Russia!

Слава Славянској Браћи! :)

Now, pay attention on the actual topic :)

[The Lawspeaker]

Like German neonazi would tell - you're Untermensch. That's that.
At least my people paid their dues. Which makes us much better then you. Infinitely much better.

[DarkZarathustra]

Hm not all but many. And i will correct myself!! Many Russian are not only mongrels but retarted mongrels.

Notice that you behave like you're brainwashed lemming. :wink

[Hors]

To all those people here that seem to think that Russia will come as a white knight to rid of us Islam.
We all know where the influence of the Left came from during the last 60/70 years: Moscow. Jews - but still Moscow and guess where those Jews learned their business. The old Russian empire.

So Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels were subjects of the Russian Empire? :thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

So Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels were subjects of the Russian Empire? :thumb001:
Ever noticed how leftism here meant decolonization and social welfare- whereas in Russia it brought death and destruction and colonization.

The same thing is creeping in here now and we know where it came from.

[Loki]

I think it's really sad that there can be so little understanding between people. This hard-headedness and unwillingness to compromise and see the other's point of view, is exactly the reason why Europe has had to endure two "World Wars" over the last century.

[RoyBatty]

1 - Russia won't be invading Europe. What does it have that they could possibly want? :confused:

2 - I'm not interested in European fratricidal adventures. That's what Zionists, Plutocrats and Liberals promote in order to enslave the remaining free (meaning outside the EU) white countries. I'm not bleeding to satisfy the bloodlust of some EU Royalty or Mega Rich crooks. They can go find a sucker to die for them elsewhere.

Manipulating people into hating and quarrelling with their neighbours and brothers is the oldest trick in the book for the puppetmasters who seek to profit from the resultant chaos. I'm not stupid enough to fall for that trick but it seems many others are.

3 - Russians are my friends. I'm not interested in choosing sides against my friends.


Whose side are you going to be on with regards to liberating Europe from its current Liberal, NATO, Special Interests Elite and Zionist enslavers? Are you on THEIR side or on the side of European patriots who are tired of being dictated to by corrupt political leaders and foreigners who claim to speak for them? :confused:

[Hors]

Ever noticed how leftism here meant decolonization and social welfare- whereas in Russia it brought death and destruction and colonization.


Yeah, death and destruction imported from America and paid for by German money.

[The Lawspeaker]

@Loki

Yes and those were fights against naked aggression. The first one started by Serbia (because Serb involvement in the murder of the archduke has been proven a long time ago- and I don't care about his political stance) and the other one by Germany.


@Hors
Russia has been involved in countless acts of military aggression since the day it was born. It's your national obsession.
France's record was atrocious in the 18th century but you Russians took it a few steps further.

[DarkZarathustra]

At least my people paid their dues. Which makes us much better then you. Infinitely much better.
You're liberal with brainwashed mind with multiculturalism. My opinion that Russia made nothing for what we should apologize. We are NOT Western wigger's who had their impire's (England, France, Germany and even Holland) and today they paid for all mythologic sins and imperilistic past (great past).

It make's you much worse and wicker than we. :wink

[The Lawspeaker]

You're liberal with brainwashed mind with multiculturalism. My opinion that Russia made nothing for what we should apologize. We are NOT Western wigger's who had their impire's (England, France, Germany and even Holland) and today they paid for all mythologic sins and imperilistic past (great past).

It make's you much worse and wicker than we. :wink
No because paying of your debts is a good thing to do. You set yourself even and has nothing to do with multiculturalism or even liberalism but with common sense.
We wrecked it- we pay for it.
And we have already paid off our dues- we are just paying for nothing now. You on the other hand should start paying.

[DarkZarathustra]

Perhaps in the end- if we need a preservationist forum- the people that should be outside are Russians.
Because they dream of conquest, looting and murder. Their words are full of it and so are their deeds. Very much like our traditional enemy Islam.
You're outstandingly stupid multicultural liberal.

Liberal's and Jew's should be out of our European preservation.

[The Lawspeaker]

You're outstandingly stupid multicultural liberal.

Liberal's and Jew's should be out of our European preservation.
I am not a liberal (thank God for that) and my feelings towards Judaism are not very good either so it doesn't hit me.

And whether Jews ought to be included in European preservationism ? Well no of course not. Are liberals included-- we are no Russians and thus we can't/ won't shoot them.

We are no barbarians that kill scores of our own people- like your big buddy Stalin.

[The Lawspeaker]

Whose side are you going to be on with regards to liberating Europe from its current Liberal, NATO, Special Interests Elite and Zionist enslavers? Are you on THEIR side or on the side of European patriots who are tired of being dictated to by corrupt political leaders and foreigners who claim to speak for them? :confused:Good Europeans patriot distrust both of them and refuse to be a fifth column for the Russians.

I am quite sure that you will "have your arm raised" when the barbarians (not the Islam- but the other barbarians.. those hordes from the East) would come in. Like the NSB in the Netherlands of 1940/1945.

[DarkZarathustra]

No because paying of your debts is a good thing to do. You set yourself even and has nothing to do with multiculturalism or even liberalism but with common sense.
We wrecked it- we pay for it.
And we have already paid off our dues- we are just paying for nothing now. You on the other hand should start paying.
That's Western idiocy. :D You paid for NOTHING, do realize that? So there is no common sense.

[The Lawspeaker]

That shows that you know NOTHING about our history. My own grandfather served in the Indies and so did other family members and I know one thing: he never said a word about what happened.

More back in history: I am quite sure you don't know what my people did during the Aceh War, on Bali and on other parts of the Indies.
Our conscience can be clear: we apologized and paid off our dues so we are even now.
Admitting that you were wrong and rectifying has nothing to do with liberalism.

Unless of course you belong to a lesser race that kills people and feels no remorse because you simply categorize them as a lesser race.
You know- like the Nazi's or in this case Russians.

[RoyBatty]

We are no barbarians that kill scores of our own people- like your big buddy Stalin.

So people like Stalin, Beria, Dzherzinsky, Trotsky, Yakov Peters, Vyacheslav Menzhinsky and countless others are "Russian"? :laugh:

Those history books have been feeding you misinformation. :D

[The Lawspeaker]

So people like Stalin, Beria, Dzherzinsky, Trotsky, Yakov Peters, Vyacheslav Menzhinsky and countless others are "Russian"? :laugh:

Those history books have been feeding you misinformation. :D
They led the USSR that committed unspeakable acts of horror- that will be enough for me. It shows that Russians feels no remorse and still would gladly step up the terror campaign.

If you can hail a terror campaign against fellow Europeans, which you do by hailing what the Russians are and have been doing, you are a traitor in my eyes.
And, Roy, I won't take that word back. Just think about it.

[Hors]

@Hors
Russia has been involved in countless acts of military aggression since the day it was born. It's your national obsession.
France's record was atrocious in the 18th century but you Russians took it a few steps further.

Seriously, try "Russia and Europe" by Danilevsky, as you know little, if anything, on the subject. When you read it we talk.

[DarkZarathustra]

F*ck. I'm proud of history of my country - you're so stupid that are sorry what your relatives had to do in oversea territories.

Феерический долбоеб, пиздец. <- Hors how to translate this slang into English?

[The Lawspeaker]

I won't read your Russian propaganda. It's like reading Volkischer Beobachter when it comes to justifying German crimes in WW2.
Then I would prefer to read a foreign book about it.

[Loddfafner]

This thread should be renamed the kiddie table.

[The Lawspeaker]

F*ck. I'm proud of history of my country - you're so stupid that are sorry what your relatives had to do in oversea territories.

Феерический долбоеб, пиздец. <- Hors how to translate this slang into English?
Then you have very little to be proud of other then Saint Petersburg, your composers, your architecture, your literature, your science.
Because when it comes to politics and foreign affairs you have very little to be proud of.

Man-- je moet je smoel dicht houden en niet in je eigen taal lopen schelden als je serieus genomen wilt worden. Smeerlap (one of the other Dutchies can translate this)

[RoyBatty]

They led the USSR that committed unspeakable acts of horror- that will be enough for me. It shows that Russians feels no remorse and still would gladly step up the terror campaign.


Not one was an ethnic Russian yet you're blaming Russians for everything. Something doesn't compute. :confused:



If you can hail a terror campaign against fellow Europeans, which you do by hailing what the Russians are and have been doing, you are a traitor in my eyes.


:loco: :laugh:


And, Roy, I won't take that word back. Just think about it.

I'm not 6 years old anymore and consequently don't care what most people think or say about me. If it's good that's fine. If it's bad that's fine too.

[Wildland]

I think it's really sad that there can be so little understanding between people. This hard-headedness and unwillingness to compromise and see the other's point of view, is exactly the reason why Europe has had to endure two "World Wars" over the last century.

Remember where the First World War started?

[Hors]

F*ck. I'm proud of history of my country - you're so stupid that are sorry what your relatives had to do in oversea territories.

Феерический долбоеб, пиздец. <- Hors how to translate this slang into English?

When it comes to honest and open minded characterization of creatures like Cloggy the Russian vocabulary has no equivalents in foreign languages.

I believe that "Holy shit, he's a blithery motherf.cker" is the closest translation, albeit not adequate enough to transmit the full extent of the emotion :)

[The Lawspeaker]

I do.

[DarkZarathustra]

Then you have very little to be proud of other then Saint Petersburg, your composers, your architecture, your literature, your science.
Because when it comes to politics and foreign affairs you have very little to be proud of.

Man-- je moet je smoel dicht houden en niet in je eigen taal lopen schelden als je serieus genomen wilt worden. Smeerlap (one of the other Dutchies can translate this)
That is not so.

I'm not admirer of Putin (Russians understand me) but I want my country to become superpower again.

[The Lawspeaker]

That is not so.

I'm not admirer of Putin (Russians understand me) but I want my country to become superpower again.
Which would mean the same cycle of murder, arson, persecution and rape again. You seem to love your neighbors.

In history all those states that inflicted aggression on others were punished severely: Spain was an outcast in 17th century Europe and remained so until the 20th century. France saw itself overrun in 1813/1815, Japan got flattened and occupied in 1945 and the same thing went for Germany: flattened, occupied and divided- neutralized for years to come.
The only country that always got away with it so far was Russia. You bide your time but it will happen one day.

[Loki]

LOL:

Today's Top Poster(s): Lawspeaker (65), Hors (47), Karl (43)

:D

[Svarog]

Remember where the First World War started?

Ah Good olde times

http://www.fotorola.com/uploads/71916ad869.jpg

Slava!

[DarkZarathustra]

When it comes to honest and open minded characterization of creatures like Cloggy the Russian vocabulary has no equivalents in foreign languages.

I believe that "Holy shit, he's a blithery motherf.cker" is the closest translation, albeit not adequate enough to transmit the full extent of the emotion :)
Hahaha :D Thank you! It made me smile.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

That contains some truth but is way too generalising and simplistic.

I mentioned 'elaborate' a bit. Had I gone into details it would be very long and not applicable to the thread


Many Boers are/were politicians and many Afrikaners from the Cape are farmers, and have always been. I don't think one can ascribe one occupation to either. If the Boers did not have politicians and leaders, they would not have been able to found republics such as Potchefstroom, Lydenburg, Nuwe Republiek, Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek, and so forth.

That was then,Boer leaders of old were given the task to be the spokesmen,(Commando system) as per your republics above,before it became ZAR,
that does not make them politicians. To found republics in those days was on the shoulders of the leaders. Our friend " Paul Kruger" was a man with a Boer mentality. Had he been an Afrikaner,who knows what would have happened.
The same applies to Verwoerd-a Boer in his heart,but an Afrikaner by name.
Not in any history book will you see a Boer Party. It was either South African Party or National Party or United Party in those days.
People like Treurnicht,(Conservative Party) were pro Boer,but again not a good politician. F. Hartzenberg ditto.
Take Robert van Tonder(RIP). he was a spokesman for the BSPBoere Staat Party0not registered party and Eugene,who was a spokesman for the AWBAfrkaner Weerstand Beweging. The former was a brilliant Boer leader ,but not a politician in the real sense of the word.The latter was seen as a politician,but a hopeless leader.Then we have Connie Mulder-an Afrikaner,who thinks he is a Boer,of the FF+.He has aligned himself with the ANC,because they offered him a job. Robert at the time(2000) was given the opportunity to be a 'friend'
of the ANC. He refused.He wanted self determination for the Boervolk.
Eugene,like Vlok,did some ass-creeping. The only Boer politician of worth was PW Botha(in my opinion, many see him as a traitor)and you know what happened to him.He at least refused to bow to the TRC.
Than we have Afrikaners like Max du Preez and plenty more who like to be objective and find it laughable that there should be a piece of land for the Boers.
Coen Vermaak of the BSP9who registered the party in 2007) is the only one sticking to his Boer ancestry, in line with him are Rundle-Piet Skiet Rudolf-Leon Hart-the van Tonders( again none of them real politicians)

The wine farmers,the cattle farmers,the mielie farmers(see De Doorns for instance) were all Boers(for sofar I know them) or in your words Afrikaners but with a Boer mentality.
The Afrikaner in the real sense of the word is a GP-a shop owner-a financial adviser-an insurance advisor-a motor car dealer-a manager of a company etc,they got themselves out of a manual job their fathers used to do.
That I must grant them as a big plus equal if not better than the Brits
Yes the "vonken voor een eigen land is byna dood.
Damned shame.And there is still no 'friendship' between the two.
The Boer is seen as a dumbo and the Afrikaner as a traitor.


However I think you are right in that many of the National Party politicians had Cape origins -- you could hear it in their accents. And the media as well. Seems to have been dominated by Cape-accented Afrikaners. In my experience. Where I grew up, a Cape accent was something out of the ordinary to hear on the streets, even more weird than English.

But very nice to listen too.
Ah well, as soon as I have sold my property I am off to Namibia.

[Loki]

The same applies to Verwoerd-a Boer in his heart,but an Afrikaner by name.


Verwoerd was neither an Afrikaner nor a Boer. He was a Hollander.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Verwoerd was neither an Afrikaner nor a Boer. He was a Hollander.

I know,the poor man,but at the age of 3 or 4 he???? became a South African.
He was voted one of the top(19th) popular South Africans.
Shows you how brilliant Hollanders are:D

[Lenny]

The same exception goes for us.

Estonian and Latvian SS soldiers didn't fight for any Grossdeutschland, but for our independence and freedom from the Soviets who had already accomplished so many atrocities here

Yeah, exactly EWtt.

The Waffen-SS is one of the least-understood military groupings by the general public in all history. Not that this should be a surprise.

It was a pan-European anti-communist army. Most of the soldiers were nonGerman, and many of the divisions were entirely nonGerman local units. Its express purpose was to be a panEuropean volunteer army to fight Bolshevism and thereby defend Europe.

There were at least several dozen of members of every European nationality in the Waffen-SS, with many contributing thousands or tens of thousands and raising their entire own units.

Some of the most heroically-tragic and noble stories of the war come from the Berlin "Goetterdaemmerung" of April 1945, when the remnants of the shattered Waffen-SS made their last stand alongside the pathetic-to-behold Hitler-Youth brigades and WWI-vets of the Volkssturm. The European Volunteers were determined to fight communism to the last man - in the most fatalistic possible sense.

I have read that there were something approaching 100 British anticommunists who managed to wind up in the Waffen-SS to fight communism.--

I once read an account of one small team of British anticommunists who somehow had become detached from their command in late April '45 in Berlin. They held out in a small spot out, of the way, in a tricky-to-maneuver area. The Soviets overlooked this position and dismissed it as a group of holdouts who would surrender instantly if they saw a few Red-bayonets in the distance. Instead the Brits held their lone, isolated position for three entire days, killing dozens of Soviet soldiers and disabling several communist vehicles, until they ran out of ammunition, were captured, and massacred. That small section of an out-of-the-way Berlin neighborhood did not fall to communism, so long as those Brits remained alive.

One of the other most inspiring stories is that of the remnants of the famous "Nordland" division - The Scandinavians thereof fought in a similar way to those 4 or 5 Brits mentioned above, though the Nordland commanders eventually tried to make an escape unlike the British fatalists. Their heroism as they fought their way west through the city was such that they continued to give away medals by candlelight in the empty U-bahn stations in which they slept, even into early May.

[Lenny]

Hehe. Rapes by German soldiers were very rare. Honestly I am yet to find ANY source about it online.

It did happen, rarely, and the culprits were usually executed by Wehrmacht or Waffen-SS high commands. No tolerance. Military discipline is largely what makes an army worth its muster, and the German army was quite a good one - "pound for pound".

The American army also executed its rapists (including the father of black civil rights hero "Emmitt Till" - a lout of a "man" who raped some Italian women in 1944 and went before the firing squad for it. Emmitt Till himself was supposedly lynched in the 1950s for "whistling at a white woman", but subsequent interviews with local whites said he had actually been boasting all over town about raping white girls).

[Gooding]

It did happen, rarely, and the culprits were usually executed by Wehrmacht or Waffen-SS high commands. No tolerance. Military discipline is largely what makes an army worth its muster, and the German army was quite a good one - "pound for pound".

The American army also executed its rapists (including the father of black civil rights hero "Emmitt Till" - a lout of a "man" who raped some Italian women in 1944 and went before the firing squad for it. Emmitt Till himself was supposedly lynched in the 1950s for "whistling at a white woman", but subsequent interviews with local whites said he had actually been boasting all over town about raping white girls).

I suppose that that lousy nigger got exactly what was coming to him.So did his daddy.The zero tolerance policy in armies are good for retaining discipline and keeping soldiers soldiers.Rommel (a distant relative of mine),Straussenberg and other well disciplined German officers who fought for Germany rather than Hitler, in my humble opinion, were the ones that kept the Wehrmacht on top for so long.

[Finsterer Streiter]

Also ridiculous that people are proud they were part of some SS division which soldiers died in an unmarked graves in the Russian front just because Hitler was so desperate and let just anyone in the SS division, so no, you're country is not uber cool for some minor SS division they had, actually, I find it a collaboration as for me Germany was an invader...
I beg to differ here. First, many countries and individuals collaborated with us during WW2. The main reason was simple: People fucking hate to lose so they throw themselves around the neck of the victorious ones, the glorious knights with the golden and shining armours. It was blatant opportunism. In kissing our arses they´ve hoped to gain advantages and amenities after the war.
For the first years of the war Germany was the cool guy. Later in the war, when Hitlers megalomaniac tactics of fighting both the allies and sovjets concurrently failed, most of the opportunists withdrew from battle or switched sides. I´ve no respect for them. Either we fight and win or lose together, or we don´t fight together at all. It´s about having a backbone. You want to play risky games? Join the party but accept the consequences.

The issue with the Letts and the Estonians is different. Their initial position was like a lose-lose situation. They had us Germans at one side and the Russians at the other side. Most of them saw better chances for an independent national survival in joining or supporting the German forces, and they did it to the bitter end, often by showing steeled and exemplary fighting spirit. I salute them, they had the guts to bear the hard consequences.

Wehrmacht- or SS-praising people from nations like Italia, Romania, Bulgaria or Spain are a joke. All of their countries either wet their pants and switched sides when the shit began to hit the fan or didn´t started acting at all (Spain). There´s nothing to be proud of when you´re an Romanian or Italian Hitler worshipper. Sorry to break your wet dreams, but your ancestors on German side were abnegators. Better be proud of your own history and nation, there´s more than enough to be proud of for sure. Don´t adorn yourself with borrowed plumes when the plumes orginate from a failed bird.

[W. R.]

There's no question the SS themselves were quite brave, over 1/3 of those who joined were killed in battle, and they were often given the toughest/most unpleasant tasks, especially the non-German volunteers who were often given anti-partisan assignments.Wrong conclusions from the correct facts.

The non-German volunteers didn't have to be especially brave to be given anti-partisan assignments. I don't know about the other parts of Europe, but here civilians made up to 90 % of the victims of the so called "anti-partisan" warfare.

That was too dirty a job to be done by Germans, but it was suitable to less worthy races.

[Falkata]

As far as I know the spanish volunteers (the 250th division of the Wehrmacht) in the East front didnt participate in any ethnic cleasing and the great majority of them didnt give a fuck about subhuman slavs or aryan germans.
They went there to fight against the communism and nothing else. Not against the russians as a race / people.
The division was a strange group composed of fanatics (fascists, catholics, anti-commies), young dudes who lost everything in Spain after the civil war and they were looking for glory and even reds who were trying to clean their recent past in the civil war and coming back to Spain as heros.
I´ve read 2 books about 2 volunteers and their experiences in Russia and the civilians weren´t specially hostile against them.They liked the spaniards more than the germans because they were less cruel with the local population.
One of the ex-volunteers even wrote in his book that in some russian village where they were stationed the civilians woke up them up when the army started to bombing them :D


And the only family member who was involved in the IIWW was the oldest brother of my grandpa who died years before I was born. He was in the East front and I dont feel ashamed or proud about it. He just thought it was the right thing to do. He didnt go there to participate in any holocaust

[W. R.]

As far as I know the spanish volunteers (the 250th division of the Wehrmacht) in the East front didnt participate in any ethnic cleasing and the great majority of them didnt give a fuck about subhuman slavs or aryan germans.
They went there to fight against the communism and nothing else. Not against the russians as a race / people.
The division was a strange group composed of fanatics (fascists, catholics, anti-commies), young dudes who lost everything in Spain after the civil war and they were looking for glory and even reds who were trying to clean their recent past in the civil war and coming back to Spain as heros.Certainly, I thought of non-Germans from the East first and foremost.

Spaniards, Dutch, Norwegians etc. who joined Waffen SS did that out of some idealism, partially implanted by the German propaganda, and to send them for participating in war crimes would have been a pretty stupid thing to do. That would have been the greatest blow to their idealism one could imagine.

[SwordoftheVistula]

here civilians made up to 90 % of the victims of the so called "anti-partisan" warfare.

Just because they weren't wearing uniforms doesn't mean they didn't support hostilities against the occupying army.

[W. R.]

Just because they weren't wearing uniforms doesn't mean they didn't support hostilities against the occupying army.The problem is that more often than not they didn't.

The first Soviet guerrillas were communist activists and officials as well as Soviet soldiers that had not managed to retreat with the Red Army. They had little to lose. One can say that the Soviet state didn't cease to exist when the "Germano-fascist invaders" came, it just retreated to bogs and woods. And the Soviet guerrillas felt that they had the right for violence, as any state does: they confiscated crops from peasants, mobilized men into partisans by force etc.

Not being able (or not willing) to protect civilians Germans launched the policy of terror instead, that appeared to be ineffective, because:
Threatened by death if he were to collaborate with the Germans, threatened by death if he were to assist the partisans, threatened by death if he aided any Jews, threatened by death through reprisal if a partisan attack occurred near him, threatened by death if conscripted into the local police, threatened by conscription for slave labor in Germany, and threatened with starvation because his crops were confiscated, the average Byelorussian krestyanin (peasant) had very few options which would help him to live out the war unscathed. His ultimate and best choice turned out to be to join the guerrillas in the woods, where he had a better chance to survive the war.

Copypasta:Antonio Munoz, "How to Lose a Guerrilla War" (http://revolution.lharrison.net/system/files/How+To+Lose+A+Guerrilla+War+German+Anti-Partisan+Warfare+-+Antonio+Munoz.pdf)Pay attention to the underlined sentence. It may be that the situation (created among other things by the German terror) was unique in Europe (not sure about the Balkans though): it was safer for a peasant to join the resistance movement than to be a loyal subject of the Third Reich.