Ethnic Borders of Lithuania

[Jarl]

There should be "Lithuania" - sorry for the typo! Can someone correct this please?



Here is a map I found of the Suwalki region. I marked the former Polish and Prussian border with green:


http://i49.tinypic.com/rbm9lx.png



I have seen this map in several variants. It shows the furtherst Lithunian extent of Lithuanian-speaking area. I think it shows the situation in 1876, but in one source it stated 1863.



Here is the map of current borders - the line from Lipsk upwards should be tilted slightly to the West rather than vertical - but since those are manily forest areas (Puszcza Augustowska) it wont make a big difference:

http://i48.tinypic.com/r295k5.png

[Jarl]

And?

What are you trying to tell?



Just what the maps tell. Why are you presuming malicious intentions on my side?

[member]

If you want to discuss ethnic and official borders of Prussian Lithuanians and Lithuanians (and vs. let's say Poland) you should ask Skomand (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/group.php?groupid=181)from ABF.

[member]

maps posted in the mentioned forum:

The spread of Lithuanian language in Prussian Lithuania based on the census of the year 1906.

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/7374/dscf3966k.jpg

1 - the border of the state
2 - 70-10%
3 - 50-70%
4 - 20-50%
5 - 5-20%
6 - to 15 %

will post one more later

[Breedingvariety]

Vast majority of Memelland Lithuanians fled to Germany at the end of WW2.

[Jarl]

Vast majority of Memelland Lithuanians fled to Germany at the end of WW2.

Quite similar with the East Prussian Poles, the Mazurians.

[member]

Quite similar with the East Prussian Poles, the Mazurians.

Red Army didn't differentiate between German, Lithuanian and I suppose other ethnicities in East Prussia.

Red Army's actions in Memelland towards the locals where a bit different compared to how they acted in East Prussia.

[Jarl]

Red Army didn't differentiate between German, Lithuanian and I suppose other ethnicities in East Prussia.

Red Army's actions in Memelland towards the locals where a bit different compared to how they acted in East Prussia.


That depends on the region. Mazurs did not consider themselves Polish and so they were initially indeed treated like Germans by the Soviets. That was slightly different in the West, particularly in Catholic Ermland. But the scale of atrocities was arguably highest in East Prussia.

[member]

That depends on the region. Mazurs did not consider themselves Polish and so they were initially indeed treated like Germans by the Soviets. That was slightly different in the West, particularly in Catholic Ermland. But the scale of atrocities was arguably highest in East Prussia.

I doubt they actually asked people what do they consider themselves before raping and killing them in East Prussia...Wasn't it the first German region which Soviets invaded, anyway?

[tiger]

maps posted in the mentioned forum:

The spread of Lithuanian language in Prussian Lithuania based on the census of the year 1906.

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/7374/dscf3966k.jpg

1 - the border of the state
2 - 70-10%
3 - 50-70%
4 - 20-50%
5 - 5-20%
6 - to 15 %

will post one more later

The colour version:

http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva19.htm

[Ghoul]

I doubt they actually asked people what do they consider themselves before raping and killing them in East Prussia...Wasn't it the first German region which Soviets invaded, anyway?

I shutter to think of what those people had to go through.
I saw a documentary that described that some of them tried to escape throu the Curonian spit to Mecklenberg.

[Jarl]

Having flicked through some old maps and digged into the literature I must conclude that generally speaking Lithuanian maps printed before 1920 were quite accurate. Many of them seem to be variants of on a single map and differ very slightly. For instance in some of them the area near Przerosl is not Lithuanian (and that is correct). I particulary think one single map by Antanas Smetona printed in 1914 in a Lithuanian newspaper is very accurate as it gives several lines of the extent of Lithuanian language by different authors.

Generally it does not differ much from the one posted above. Only around Przerosl and Sejny-Berzniki is recedes back a little - which is correct and in accordance to Lithuanian ethnographists. This variant which I showed here presents the furthest extent of ethnic Lithuanian settlement (not counting colonies dispersed among Polish or Ruthenian areas). It has to be noted though that the solid Lithuanian settlement did not reach far beyond the Berzniki-Sejny-Wizajny line/road (only South of Wizajny there were several early Lithuanian villages). Further to the South there were some Lithuanian villages were interspersed among Polish and Ruthenian settlements.

So while the part of the old Sejny and Suwalki districts that are now part of Poland were generally more Polish-Belarusian than Lithuanian, the Northern fringes counting perhaps some 60-odd villages and hamlets belonged to historically ethnic Lithuanian territory. However by early XXth century the are became quite mixed and bilingual. Lithuanians had a clear majority only in the area near Punsk (as they still do even today), North of Sejny-Szypliszki line.

[Mans not hot]

South Lithuania jest Polska.

[arcticwolf]

South Lithuania jest Polska.

Lithuanians are our brothers and sisters. Let them be. :D

[tiger]

South Lithuania jest Polska.

It's only temporary...

[Jarl]

lol

[tiger]

The same period:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11874710/img/Anonymous/ethnic.jpg
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11874710/img/Anonymous/ethnic.jpg

[Skomand]

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i283740_buga.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/283740_buga.jpg.html)

It's interesting to see how far inland (Proto-) Lithuanians lived round 500 according to Buga.
The German geographer Mortensen sees the Lithuanian
westward movement to the Baltic Sea and their final settlement in the 16th century in East Prussia as the very last stage of the Great Peoples' Migration (Völkerwanderung).

[Meow]

Don't forget London, it's full of lithuanians :D

[Skomand]

please clean

[Skomand]

Don't forget London, it's full of lithuanians :D

It's hardly known that (after Slavic ones) Lithuanian surnames in Germany come second-place among non-German surnames .
German-Lithuanian surname Naujoks is the most wide-spead Lithuanian surname worldwide: 1600 hits. When all the derivatives of Lithuanian "naujokas" are included the number is even higher.

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i283746_naujoks-absolute.png (http://hostarea.de/show.php/283746_naujoks-absolute.png.html)

Naujocks, Naujoks, Naujock, Naujok, Naujokat


http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujocks.html 100
http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujock.html 131

http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujok.html 331
http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujokat.html 442

The first modern Lithuanian emigration wave landed them in Berlin and in the Ruhrgebiet. That was in the 19th century.

[Mans not hot]

Don't forget London, it's full of lithuanians :D
And Polacks. :D

[Meow]

And Polacks. :D

Polish people are everywhere: Norway, Germany, UK, Ireland.


It's hardly known that (after Slavic ones) Lithuanian surnames in Germany come second-place among non-German surnames .
German-Lithuanian surname Naujoks is the most wide-spead Lithuanian surname worldwide: 1600 hits. When all the derivatives of Lithuanian "naujokas" are included the number is even higher.

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i283746_naujoks-absolute.png (http://hostarea.de/show.php/283746_naujoks-absolute.png.html)

Naujocks, Naujoks, Naujock, Naujok, Naujokat


http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujocks.html 100
http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujock.html 131

http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujok.html 331
http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/naujokat.html 442

The first modern Lithuanian emigration wave landed them in Berlin and in the Ruhrgebiet. That was in the 19th century.

Thanks for sharing this site, I typed my own surname and found 10 bis 12 in Hannover and 1 bis 3 in 4 other regions

[Mans not hot]

Polish people are everywhere: Norway, Germany, UK, Ireland.
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

[Skomand]

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284090_mortensen-grenze.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284090_mortensen-grenze.jpg.html)

This little 1927 map by Hans Mortensen shows the ethnographic border between East-Prussia and Lithuania round 1422.
Before Mortensen's studies historians believed that Lithuanians were autochthons in northern Prussia. In reality,
Lithuanians settled in Prussia only after the Peace Treaty of Melno (1466).

[tiger]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg/544px-Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg.png

[Mans not hot]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..

[Skomand]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg/544px-Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg.png

Lithuania had no access to the sea round round 1200. Here is a more detailed map by Mortensen.


http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284506_bild-karte-mortensen-sa-frac14-dkurland.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284506_bild-karte-mortensen-sa-frac14-dkurland.jpg.html)

[sammymcgoff]

South Lithuania jest Polska.

Nie, South Lithuania nie jest Polska

[Mans not hot]

Nie, South Lithuania nie jest Polska
You don't know about Polish/Lithuanian history, my dear English friend.

[sammymcgoff]

You don't know about Polish/Lithuanian history, my dear English friend.

Course, I don't. Sorry for going off topic, but I am learning Polish language though, so that's why I replied in English/Polish mix

[Aunt Hilda]

You don't know about Polish/Lithuanian history, my dear English friend.

wait, are you saying Southern Lithuania is polish? :D

[sammymcgoff]

wait, are you saying Southern Lithuania is polish? :D

That's what he said, yes!

[Aunt Hilda]

That's what he said, yes!

well there's a lot(and I do mean a LOT) of polish people, we'll give him that

[sammymcgoff]

well there's a lot(and I do mean a LOT) of polish people, we'll give him that

Its the same even in the UK!

[Mans not hot]

Its the same even in the UK!
She meant that some Lithuanians from South Lithuania have Polish roots due to Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.

[Aunt Hilda]

She meant that some Lithuanians from South Lithuania have Polish roots due to Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.

the guys from the south have Polish sounding names like Adomavicius
while in the western part of lithuania, people have last names like Augilius

[tiger]

well there's a lot(and I do mean a LOT) of polish people, we'll give him that

Southern Lithuania is poorly inhabited. Slavic people are concentrated around Vilnius, that is Eastern Lithuania actually.

[Skomand]

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284090_mortensen-grenze.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284090_mortensen-grenze.jpg.html)

This little 1927 map by Hans Mortensen shows the ethnographic border between East-Prussia and Lithuania round 1422.
Before Mortensen's studies historians believed that Lithuanians were autochthons in northern Prussia. In reality,
Lithuanians settled in Prussia only after the Peace Treaty of Melno (1466).

After the Lithuanians had settled in northern Prussia, something funny happened: northern Prussia came to be named "Lithuania" and the Lithuanians of Prussia called the Lithuanian land beyond the border "Samogitia" and its inhabitants "Samogitians".
To a 19th century German Lithuania belonged to Germany just like Bavaria or Westphalia, as this 1898 book illustrates:

http://archive.org/details/litaueneineland00zwecgoog

Albert Zweck
Litauen. Eine Landes- und Volkskunde
Stuttgart 1898

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284822_litauen-und-szamaiten.png (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284822_litauen-und-szamaiten.png.html)

[tiger]

After the Lithuanians had settled in northern Prussia, something funny happened: northern Prussia came to be named "Lithuania" and the Lithuanians of Prussia called the Lithuanian land beyond the border "Samogitia" and its inhabitants "Samogitians".
To a 19th century German Lithuania belonged to Germany just like Bavaria or Westphalia, as this 1898 book illustrates:

http://archive.org/details/litaueneineland00zwecgoog

Albert Zweck
Litauen. Eine Landes- und Volkskunde
Stuttgart 1898

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284822_litauen-und-szamaiten.png (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284822_litauen-und-szamaiten.png.html)

Nadruvia was included in the first Lithuanian state before crusaders took it away in 1263. So, technically it was occupied piece of Lithuania:

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11930673/img/Anonymous/First-Lithuania.jpg
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11930673/img/Anonymous/First-Lithuania.jpg

[Skomand]

Another map showing Lithuania in Prussia only.
What is Lithuania today is shown as Samogitia and Poland.




http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284868_litthauen.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284868_litthauen.jpg.html)

[tiger]

Another map showing Lithuania in Prussia only.
What is Lithuania today is shown as Samogitia and Poland.




http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284868_litthauen.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284868_litthauen.jpg.html)

These are political maps. Yotvingia was temporary conquered by the Kingdom of Poland (1264–80), whereas Samogitia was autonomous in Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

[Skomand]

These are political maps. Yotvingia was temporary conquered by the Kingdom of Poland (1264–80), whereas Samogitia was autonomous in Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

The map is 18th century.

[tiger]

The map is 18th century.

You didn't mention this in your post. In that case it refers to this:

http://mikeeliasz.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/1820_polish_russian_polishkingdom_map.jpeg

Lithuania did not have an autonomy in Russian imperia, whereas Poland had it (Yotvingia was basically inhabited by Lithuanians, though it was added to Poland).

[Mans not hot]

Have you embrace your Polish roots yet?

[tiger]

Have you embrace your Polish roots yet?

I have no Polish roots. Also, I recommend you to visit Yotvingia one day. I will give you my money, if you find a single Pole there (Southern Lithuania).

[Skomand]

Not only was Lithuania not where it is today.
It had a Royal Lithuanian Government and its capital was Gumbinnen, not Kaunas or Vilnius.


http://hostarea.de/out.php/i284928_amtsblatt1.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/284928_amtsblatt1.jpg.html)

[Aunt Hilda]

Altdeutsch und unlesbar, I'm not even gonna bother reading it. Would be pointless since its too difficult for me ... :D
mind summarizing? :P

[Skomand]

Altdeutsch und unlesbar, I'm not even gonna bother reading it. Would be pointless since its too difficult for me ... :D
mind summarizing? :P

Just Royal cabinet orders and decrees.

[Skomand]

Altdeutsch und unlesbar, I'm not even gonna bother reading it. Would be pointless since its too difficult for me ... :D
mind summarizing? :P

BTW, Prussian-Lithuanian books, newspapers, bibles etc were always printed in Altdeutsch/Gothic script, while they wrote in Latin script. This was an important divisive factor between Lietuwininkai and Lietuviai.
Here is the very last page of a Prussian-Lithuanian newspaper (30th September 1940).

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i285013_lietuw-ceit.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/285013_lietuw-ceit.jpg.html)

"Mes atsisveikiname" = "We say farewell"

[Aunt Hilda]

BTW, Prussian-Lithuanians books, newspapers, bibles etc were always printed in Altdeutsch/Gothic script, while they wrote in Latin script. This was an important divisive factor between Lietuwininkai and Lietuviai.
Here is the very last page of a Prussian-Lithuanian newspaper (30th September 1940).

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i285013_lietuw-ceit.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/285013_lietuw-ceit.jpg.html)

immer noch nicht lesbar. :P
I'm sooo bad with Altdeutsch It embarrassing, It takes me ages to read a sentence.
then again, these newspapers make those claims to northern-ness actually make some sense lol

[Skomand]

immer noch nicht lesbar. :P
I'm sooo bad with Altdeutsch It embarrassing, It takes me ages to read a sentence.


You would have failed primary school.

You can practice here:

1882 bilingual primer


http://hostarea.de/out.php/i285016_primer-dt.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/285016_primer-dt.jpg.html)

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i285019_primer-lit.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/285019_primer-lit.jpg.html)

adapted version

Aš esmi Szuilej. Szuilej yra daug Kudikiu: Waiku ir Mergaiczu. Szuilej yra wiskas kitaip, ne taip Namej Stuboj. Szulej yra Solu; ant tuju sed Szuilokai. Pirm Solu randasi Stalu;ant tuju deda Szuilokai sawo knygas, Toblyczas ben Rašimo Knygas. Pirm Solu yra Sostas Mokitojo. Ne toli nu to kaba dideji Toblycza; ta pati yra keturkampe, iš Medzo padaryta ir juday apmoliawota. Prie Sienu kaba gražus Abrozai.
Mokitojis susikalba su Szuilokais apie tus gražus Abrozus, apie Tewa bey Motina, apie Galwijus bey Želmenis, Menesi bei Zweigzdes; jis apsako jiems ir gražus Nusidawimus apie Pona Diewa. Kudikei mandagay sed ir milay daboja. Mokitojis mokina Kudikius melsti, giedoti, skaityti, czekoti, rašyti bei rokoti.
Gers Kudikis dzaugiasi, kad jis ta išmokti gal, ir todel mielay eina i Szuile. Szuilei pradedant ir pabaigiant meldzam ir giedam. Szuilei pasibaigius eina Szuilokai padorey Namun. Ar tu mielai eini i Szuile?

[Aunt Hilda]

You would have failed primary school.

You can practice here:

1882 bilingual primer

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i285016_primer-dt.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/285016_primer-dt.jpg.html)

German version http://hostarea.de/out.php/i285017_primer-dt.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/285017_primer-dt.jpg.html)


adapted version

Aš esmi Szuilej. Szuilej yra daug Kudikiu: Waiku ir Mergaiczu. Szuilej yra wiskas kitaip, ne taip Namej Stuboj. Szulej yra Solu; ant tuju sed Szuilokai. Pirm Solu randasi Stalu;ant tuju deda Szuilokai sawo knygas, Toblyczas ben Rašimo Knygas. Pirm Solu yra Sostas Mokitojo. Ne toli nu to kaba dideji Toblycza; ta pati yra keturkampe, iš Medzo padaryta ir juday apmoliawota. Prie Sienu kaba gražus Abrozai.
Mokitojis susikalba su Szuilokais apie tus gražus Abrozus, apie Tewa bey Motina, apie Galwijus bey Želmenis, Menesi bei Zweigzdes; jis apsako jiems ir gražus Nusidawimus apie Pona Diewa. Kudikei mandagay sed ir milay daboja. Mokitojis mokina Kudikius melsti, giedoti, skaityti, czekoti, rašyti bei rokoti.
Gers Kudikis dzaugiasi, kad jis ta išmokti gal, ir todel mielay eina i Szuile. Szuilei pradedant ir pabaigiant meldzam ir giedam. Szuilei pasibaigius eina Szuilokai padorey Namun. Ar tu mielai eini i Szuile?

I'm not a native speaker of german or lithuanian, I've only started Altdeutsch this year at uni

[Mans not hot]

Can you speak Scottish?

[Aunt Hilda]

Can you speak Scottish?

:picard1:

do you mean Gaelic?

[Mans not hot]

Yes

[Aunt Hilda]

Yes

no sadly not, its not a thing

[Mans not hot]

Kinda suck you can't even speak your own languages.

[7eleven]

Lithuania belongs to the Jews

[Meow]

Lithuania belongs to the Jews


:lol00002:

[tiger]

This is one another map showing ethnic borders of different nations alongside the border of East Prussia and Russian Imperia (drawn in red), but the ethnic situation is probably of the XVII century. Note that the cities Goldap and Suwalki are shown on the ethnic Lithuanian side:

http://i45.tinypic.com/2ppm0k3.jpg

[Skomand]

This is one another map showing ethnic borders of different nations alongside the border of East Prussia and Russian Imperia (drawn in red), but the ethnic situation is probably of the XVII century. Note that the cities Goldap and Suwalki are shown on the ethnic Lithuanian side:

http://i45.tinypic.com/2ppm0k3.jpg

This looks like an early ethnographic map in German. "Eigentliche Letten" means "proper Latvians", since "Letten" as an umbrella term was used to comprise both Latvians and Lithuanians before it came to be replaced by "Balts".
The map also uses "Polaken" instead of "Polen". When "Polaken" is used in current German, it is always meant as an insult.

[Jarl]

This looks like an early ethnographic map in German. "Eigentliche Letten" means "proper Latvians", since "Letten" as an umbrella term was used to comprise both Latvians and Lithuanians before it came to be replaced by "Balts".
The map also uses "Polaken" instead of "Polen". When "Polaken" is used in current German, it is always meant as an insult.

This is indeed a German map by Perthes. It comes from some German lexikon afaik. There is another one with Poland at a better resolution. This map is particularly interesting for two reasons: first of all it mostly free from the later nationalist propaganda bias, and secondly it shows the major "ethnic" divisions just before modern schooling and germanisation policy managed to blurr them for good. It shows the situation in 1846.



This is one another map showing ethnic borders of different nations alongside the border of East Prussia and Russian Imperia (drawn in red), but the ethnic situation is probably of the XVII century. Note that the cities Goldap and Suwalki are shown on the ethnic Lithuanian side:

http://i45.tinypic.com/2ppm0k3.jpg



Not at all. Its mid XIXth century. Besides Goldap and Dubienniki were bilingual - there were Polish and Lithuanian masses held in both places. Here the ethnic Polish and ethnic Lithuanian arease met together.



In XVIIth century the Lithuanian area looked like this:

http://www.lituanus.org/1964/64_1_03_map.jpg

http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/thumb/a/a7/Bild_Karte_Das_litauische_Sprachgebiet_in_Preussen .gif/900px-Bild_Karte_Das_litauische_Sprachgebiet_in_Preussen .gif


another version

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Lithuania_Minor.png




The dotted line is the Tetzner line - the extent of Lithuanian church masses by 1709.





And here Latvians or Kuronians of East Prussia:


http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/thumb/9/92/Bild_Karte_Das_lettische_Sprachgebiet_in_Ostpreuss en.gif/700px-Bild_Karte_Das_lettische_Sprachgebiet_in_Ostpreuss en.gif

[Jarl]

This is one another map showing ethnic borders of different nations alongside the border of East Prussia and Russian Imperia (drawn in red), but the ethnic situation is probably of the XVII century. Note that the cities Goldap and Suwalki are shown on the ethnic Lithuanian side:

http://i45.tinypic.com/2ppm0k3.jpg




This is not accurate though. Here is another map from the same author and frmo the same Atlas:



http://i49.tinypic.com/33b0igp.jpg



Suwalki is on the Polish side this time.


Anyway the fact is that neither Suwalki nor Filipow nor Przerosl were Lithuanian as the church records of the city and nearby parishes indicate mostly Catholic Poles and Protestant Mazurs together with Russian colonists. Ethnic Lithuanian area extended North from the Sejny-Wiżajny road - with both Sejny and Wiżajny being mixed Polish-Lithuanian.


In the past (XVI-XVIIth century) mixed Lithuanian-Polish and Lithuanian-Ruthenian villages existed also South of this road - between Wiżajny and Suwałki and between Sejny and Wigry. They were however mixed and dispersed.


I think this line (comes from Lithuanian map):


http://i49.tinypic.com/rbm9lx.png


Shows the furthest extent of continous Lithuanian settlement including mixed Polsih-Lithuanian and Polish-Ruthenian villages:

http://i49.tinypic.com/rbm9lx.png

Przerosl is however definitely wrong and the area beyond the red line also contains some entirely Mazurian, Russian and Polish villages. But I think one could argue that this is really the furthest extent of historical Lithuanian and mixed-Lithuanian settlement in the Suwalki-Sejny region (not counting noble families or single family migrants and settlers who often travelled far to the South up to Grodno area but got quickly assimilated by Poles and Russians).


I would interested in other Lithuanian maps though. Does anyone have some???

[Skomand]

I would interested in other Lithuanian maps though. Does anyone have some???

The southernmost point of Lithuanian settlement in Prussia is Angerburg/Ungura, which used to be a tri-lingual city. The church records show that between the 16th/18th century Lithuanian was more widespread than is shown in all the maps above.

[Jarl]

The southernmost point of Lithuanian settlement in Prussia is Angerburg/Ungura, which used to be a tri-lingual city.


That is true. Goldap and Dubienniki were also trilingual. This was the line of the interface between predominantly Polish and predominantly Lithuanian settlemnt it can be more less drawn through:

Węgorzewo/Angerburg - Banie Mazurskie / Benkheim - Goldap and Żytkiejmy.


Polish historians wrote that even by the end of XVIII century in Angerburg there were still Polish and Lithuanian speakers.



The church records show that between the 16th/18th century Lithuanian was more widespread than is shown in all the maps above.

That is true, but mostly in the Western direction.


Same goes for Poles. In two places their settlement extenden even further North into the counties of Darkiejmy and Gierdawa.

[Jarl]

The map of Polish settlement in Prussia looked more less like this:


http://i46.tinypic.com/qz281d.png


Northe of the Angerburg - Benkheim - Goldap and Zytkiejmy line Polish or mixed Polish-Lithuanian settlement included:

in Darkehmen - Polska Wieś, Pieski, Diwidiszki, Gudwaly, Dąbrówka, Karpowo Duże i Małe, Kleszego, Mieduniszki Małe i Wielkie, Rogale, Żabin, Żabinek, Balety, Tatary, Maciejowa Wola, Piątki, Sikory.

in Gerdauen - Błędowo, Dąbrowa, Klonówka, Gniadkowo, Kurkowo, Kurkówko, Łączki, Polesie, Popówko, Kozłówko, Sokoły, Suczki, Trocin, Wesołowo, Wesołówko, Wola, Miczuły, Muldzie,Zawady, Różanna.


Other dispersed single colonies could be find in almost all counties.

[tiger]

The church records show that between the 16th/18th century Lithuanian was more widespread than is shown in all the maps above.
That is true, but mostly in the Western direction.


The map from the Lithuanian school atlas visualizes your statement:

http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva16n.htm

[Skomand]

The map from the Lithuanian school atlas visualizes your statement:

http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva16n.htm

I don't believe that the areas west of a straight north-south line running through Labiau/Labguva were half Lithuanian or Lithuanian majority. The Lithuanian settlement did not cover all of the Kaliningrad Oblast.
I think this map is politically motivated. In the 90s there were claims by Lithuanian historians who wanted to annex the Kaliningrad Oblast or at least turn it into a fourth Baltic state.

[tiger]

Another version:

http://mokslasplius.lt/mokslo-lietuva/files/images/Kalbu-paplitimas.JPG

Source:

http://mokslasplius.lt

[Skomand]

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i294762_schraptter.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/294762_schraptter.jpg.html)

http://s7.directupload.net/file/d/3196/qiyo9eou_jpg.htm

30320


The map shows the settlements of the Insterburg area round 1550 represented by yellow dots. The map itself belongs to the famed Schroetter-Karten-Sammlung (round 1800).
There are 14 maps accompanying this book:
Grischa Vercamer
Siedlungs-, Verwaltungs- und Sozialgeschichte der Komturei Königsberg im Deutschordensland Preußen (13.–16. Jahrhundert)
ISBN 978-3-938400-73-9

They can all be downloaded from here:

http://public.beuth-hochschule.de/~kred/grischa/DVD%20Buch/


Insterburg taxpayers in 1554 and 1564:

These names are very clear evidence of the strong German presence at the beginning of the settlement of the Große Wildnis. The names - almost exclusively German -in 1554 are:
1. Hans Braun
2.Hans Teckelburck
3. Merthen Krüger
4.Barthel Frenzell
5.Hans Rickerling
6. Jacoff Topper
7. Jacoff Horrn
8. Matz Topper
9 Jonell Plackste
10. Jonell Schneider
11. Caspar Schuster
12. Valthen Hoffmann
13. Valthen Bair
14. Gabriel Schneuder
15. Dautzmann (Deutschmann)
16. der alte Sczusulce
17. Hans Dunckell
18. der Schirmacher
19. Matz Hoffmann
20. der junge Schuschulis
21. Lorenz Dreher


in 1564 Lithuanians appear, but the names are still overwhelmingly German

1. Christian Braun
2. Hans Teckelburck
3. Bartel Frentzell
4. die Mertenische
5. Breuer
6. Hans Rockerlinck
7. Jacob Schuster
8. Jannel Blackstat
9. Jannel Schneider
10. Casper Schuster
11. Jacob Topfer
12. Valtin Hoffemann
13. Gabrigel Schneider
14. Deutschmann
15. Melicher Dirbach
16. Gorge Schuster
17. Gorge Schmit
18. Zzulke
19. Fleischeuer
20. Kleinschmidt
21. Dunckell
22. Peter von Suginn
23. Merthin Schneider
24. der Rothgerber
25. der Hutter
26. der Sattler
27. Christian Braun
28. Kupschell
29. Gritzus
30. Staschus
31. Jacob Schneider
32. Bottiger
33. Barbusch
34. Mickolaus Budenbecker
35. der alte Hoffmann
36. Hanusch Gerber
37. Hanusch der Korsener
38. Matzisch Rothgerber
39. Jannel Sameit
40. Janus Zeschky
41. Wilnawischkenn
42. Greger Bretschneider
43. Greger Schuster
44. Ruschky
45. Schmalgarbenn
46. Breuer
47. Stanis Schmidt
48. Gorge Stantzun
49. Klein Ziegeler
50. Stepann
51. Jacob der Schneider
52. Leinweber Hanns
53. Batzusch
54. Romann
55. Scheptell
56. Merthin Schuster
57. Michel Zimmerman

[tiger]

Insterburg taxpayers in 1554 and 1564:

These names are very clear evidence of the strong German presence at the beginning of the settlement of the Große Wildnis. The names - almost exclusively German

Lithuanian maps also mark greater German language insertions in several cities including Įsturis/Insterburg:

http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva16n.htm

[Skomand]

Lithuanian maps also mark greater German language insertions in several cities including Įsturis/Insterburg:

http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/mazojilietuva16n.htm


There can be no language insertions because (round 1550!) there are the yellow dots that mark a settlement and outside of the dots there is nothing: woods, meadows and rivers etc don't speak in a human tongue.

[tiger]

There can be no language insertions because (round 1550!) there are the yellow dots that mark a settlement and outside of the dots there is nothing: woods, meadows and rivers etc don't speak in a human tongue.

Does that mean that except of those few German settlements alongside the Pregel river the land was totally uninhabited in the XVI century, or is just a lack in the statistics? When exacly was the peak of Lithuanian migration in Eastern Prussia?

[Skomand]

Does that mean that except of those few German settlements alongside the Pregel river the land was totally uninhabited in the XVI century, or is just a lack in the statistics? When exacly was the peak of Lithuanian migration in Eastern Prussia?

1466 is a key date: peace treaty of Melno. Now the Lithuanians arrived, partly recruited by the Order, partly deserting Lithuania. They cultivated what was called the "Große Wildnis" (the Great Wilderness), uninhabited woodland, a buffer zone between the crusaders and Lithuania.
Some old settlements in the wilderness were Tilsit, Insterburg, Schloßberg ... with a population of assimilated Old Prussians and Germans, they continued to exist and harboured the Prussian administration and German craftsmen. Lithuanians were predominantly peasants.
Round 1550 the major emigration wave of Lithuanians (estimated at a total of 1/1500 families) was over. From now on the descendants of these settlers populated what was to become Prussian-Lithuania.
When the Great Plague struck in 1709, the population had grown to about 300 000 people, overwhelmingly Lithuanian with areas up to 100 per cent Lithuanian.
After the plague, which had a devastating effect on Lithuanian numbers, the Prussian king called in Salzburgers, Hessians etc who completely changed the ethnic make-up of the land, this was the beginning of Germanisation.

Therefore the ethnographic map that says something like "100 per cent Lithuanian" or "Lithuanian majority" is only a fair description of the ethnic composition of Prussian-Lithuania at a later stage, say round 1700. Claiming this composition for 1500 is wrong and blurs the fact that Nadruvians, Scalovians, Sudovians and finally Germans had been there before Lithuanians.

30369

All that is white in this map (for instance Samogitia) was inhabited. The rest is the Great Wilderness round 1400.

http://img3.picload.org/image/aoiigrc/kuhnsiedlung.jpg


http://picload.org/image/aoiigrc/kuhnsiedlung.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30369&d=1363472234

[tiger]

All that is white in this map (for instance Samogitia) was inhabited. The rest is the Great Wilderness round 1400.

The second map which I attached was clear: XVII century. Nobody was talking here about 1400 or 1500. Anyway, do you have the real statistics that would approve your previous statement:


The church records show that between the 16th/18th century Lithuanian was more widespread than is shown in all the maps above.

[Skomand]

The second map which I attached was clear: XVII century. Nobody was talking here about 1400 or 1500. Anyway, do you have the real statistics that would approve your previous statement:

"Round 1400" is the major reference point when you talk about the settlement of what was to become "Prussian-Lithuania" later: the point when it was the least inhabited.
It has been established in the most authoritative study of the area by the Mortensen couple:

Hans Mortensen und Gertrud Mortensen: Die Besiedlung des nordöstlichen Ostpreußens bis zum Beginn des 17.Jahrhunderts.

Band 1: Die preußisch-deutsche Siedlung am Westrand der Großen Wildnis um 1400. Leipzig, 1937
Band 2: Die Wildnis im östlichen Preußen, ihr Zustand um 1400 und ihre frühere Besiedlung. Leipzig 1938
--------
Band 3: could not be published in 1938 due to Nazi censorship (after all it proved that the area had been up to 100 per cent inhabited by Lithuanians)
in the near future it will be published as

Jähnig, Bernhart und Vercamer, Grischa: Hans und Gertrud Mortensen: Die Besiedlung des nordöstlichen Ostpreußen bis zum Beginn des 17. Jahrhunderts. Die Einwanderung der Litauer nach Ostpreußen.

There are no "real statistics". What I said was in reference to a line that I can see in volume I of "Mazosios Lietuvos Enciklopedija": the southernmost line of the use of Lithuanian in church (irrespective of the percentage of speakers).
From west to east the line runs through the towns of:

Sventapile - Zintai - Ylava - Barstinas - Lagagarbis - Barciai - Ungura - Kuciai - Gurniai
( more or less meandering along the Potsdam line, accident? )

[tiger]

There are no "real statistics". What I said was in reference to a line that I can see in volume I of "Mazosios Lietuvos Enciklopedija": the southernmost line of the use of Lithuanian in church (irrespective of the percentage of speakers).
From west to east the line runs through the towns of:

Sventapile - Zintai - Ylava - Barstinas - Lagagarbis - Barciai - Ungura - Kuciai - Gurniai
( more or less meandering along the Potsdam line, accident? )

So is the green line in this map:

http://www.mazoji-lietuva.lt/graphics/pictures/1287410619-709515819.jpg

[Jarl]

These names are very clear evidence of the strong German presence at the beginning of the settlement of the Große Wildnis. The names - almost exclusively German -in 1554 are:

Interesting. Zechshky Ruschky Barbusch and Batzusch soud Slavic.



Anyway, I think it would be interesting to see whether Lithuanian was spoken by majorite West of the Teztner line. Before XVIIIth century, and if yest then how far.


I also wonder what do they mean by the furthest extent regardless of percentage. The percentage surely must have been high if there were specifically Lithuanian services in those parises. It would be more interesting to see a map where they simply point each such parish to check whether this furthest extent line includes Lithuanian enclaves.



Sventapile - Zintai - Ylava - Barstinas - Lagagarbis - Barciai - Ungura - Kuciai - Gurniai


I wonder whether the communists decided to divide East Prussia across old ethnic borders, at least in part? It might well be so, although by 1945 Polish settlement did not reach Goldap and Angerburg. I think the last remaining Polish-speaking Masurian villages were a fair 10 km or so South of the line:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Polska-dialekty.png/300px-Polska-dialekty.png

Lithuanian was spoken for quite long round Dubienniki and Zytkiejmy, most likely up to 45 as well.

[Skomand]

So is the green line in this map:

http://www.mazoji-lietuva.lt/graphics/pictures/1287410619-709515819.jpg

Yes, this line is in the book and the comment reads:

baznyciose vartojamos lietuviu kalbos pieciausia riba XVI -XVII a.

[Skomand]

Interesting. Zechshky Ruschky Barbusch and Batzusch soud Slavic.
This study deals with the Slavs:
Grzegorz Bialunski: Bevölkerung und Siedlung im ordensstaatlichen und herzoglichen Preußen im Gebiet der Großen Wildnis bis 1568 (Sonderschrift 109), Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., Hamburg 2009



Anyway, I think it would be interesting to see whether Lithuanian was spoken by majorite West of the Teztner line. Before XVIIIth century, and if yes then how far.

Sventapile, Zintai, Ylava, Barstynas are apskriciu miestai/parishes on the map, like Angerburg/Unguru. The evidence should be in their church records.



I also wonder what do they mean by the furthest extent regardless of percentage. The percentage surely must have been high if there were specifically Lithuanian services in those parises. It would be more interesting to see a map where they simply point each such parish to check whether this furthest extent line includes Lithuanian enclaves.

"furthest extent regardless of percentage" these are my words, since I don't trust this encyclopedia too much and in newer maps we see how weak Lithuanians are in the neighbouring places.

This area was Old Prussian and German, but not Lithuanian.
http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/sventapile.htm





I wonder whether the communists decided to divide East Prussia across old ethnic borders, at least in part? It might well be so, although by 1945 Polish settlement did not reach Goldap and Angerburg. I think the last remaining Polish-speaking Masurian villages were a fair 10 km or so South of the line:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Polska-dialekty.png/300px-Polska-dialekty.png
Lithuanian was spoken for quite long round Dubienniki and Zytkiejmy, most likely up to 45 as well.

With Masurians in mind, that's possible, but not with Lithuanians south of the Memel in mind.

[Jarl]

This study deals with the Slavs:
Grzegorz Bialunski: Bevölkerung und Siedlung im ordensstaatlichen und herzoglichen Preußen im Gebiet der Großen Wildnis bis 1568 (Sonderschrift 109), Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., Hamburg 2009

Sventapile, Zintai, Ylava, Barstynas are apskriciu miestai/parishes on the map, like Angerburg/Unguru. The evidence should be there.

"furthest extent regardless of percentage" these are my words, since I don't trust this encyclopedia too much and in newer maps we see how weak Lithuanians are in the neighbouring places.

This area was Old Prussian and German, but not Lithuanian.
http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinlitauen/sventapile.htm


With Masurians in mind, that's possible, but not with Lithuanians south of the Memel in mind.

Thanks for the literature tip. The border was agreed at Potsdam after USSR proposed to divide East Prussia however this seemed like an arbitrary divide along one of the paralells. I now actually think this had nothing to do with any previous ethnic or cultural boundaries. They drew pretty much a smooth line from the northernmost tip round Wizajny all the way to Braniewo.

[lI]

Interesting. Zechshky Ruschky Barbusch and Batzusch soud Slavic.

What do they mean?

Lithuanian has equivalents too:
Ruschky - ručkė, literally means "brownish" but also: "heath-cock", "a brown colored pig", "a coat made of rough cloth", "a toad"
Barbusch - barbus "a person who whines, gobbles, mumbles a lot"
Batzusch - bačius "a shoe-maker"

[Jarl]

What do they mean?

Lithuanian has equivalents too:
Ruschky - ručkė, literally means "brownish" but also: "heath-cock", "a brown colored pig", "a coat made of rough cloth", "a toad"
Barbusch - barbus "a person who whines, gobbles, mumbles a lot"
Batzusch - bačius "a shoe-maker"

I said they sound Slavic not that they are. For instance Ruschky and Zeschky clearly stem out from the whole list having what appears to be a typical Slavic adj ending. The ending sky shky is not really cke ćke. Ruschky sounds like a form of Russky - a Ruthenian.

In Polish there are or there used to be surnames like Bacek, Bacia, Backowski, Backów, Bacowic, Bacula, Bacusz, Bacyński. Bacek, Batzka, Batzke. The stem of the word - Baca or Baćka means "shepeherd". Perhaps they stem from the same root as Baćka Batiuszka - an Eastern Slavic term for father, though this I do not know for sure.

Similarily I have come across surnames/names like Barbura and Barbusz. Although this can be also from latin "barbus". I fund that surname in the list of Jewish migrants from the Russian Empire. Along with Barbak and Barbinsky. Barbusz also figured in the list of Russian, I believe, partisans of mj Vasilij Michajlovic Kozlov and I found it in Slovenia too.

Zeschky sounds like Żeśki, Ześki - more less vigorous, fresh.

[lI]

I said they sound Slavic not that they are. For instance Ruschky and Zeschky clearly stem out from the whole list having what appears to be a typical Slavic adj ending. The ending sky shky is not really cke ćke. Ruschky sounds like a form of Russky - a Ruthenian.AFAIK German sch (http://www.pauljoycegerman.co.uk/pronounce/audio/schlaf.wav) is pronounced as ʃ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_sibilant)[sh] rather than [sk], so Lithuanian ručkė [rutshkė] (ė is pronounced like something in between i and e) would be closer to the original than "Russky" would.

[Skomand]

Another criterion for assessing the Lithuanian settlement is the expansion of the "Lithuanian house". Yet, I haven't seen any map of it so far. It's also too controversial, "pots are no people".

[Skomand]

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i295735_karte9b-besiedlung-um-1540-nach-a-mtern-02.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/295735_karte9b-besiedlung-um-1540-nach-a-mtern-02.jpg.html)

Prussian-Lithuanian settlements round 1540.
All the names of the tax-payers have been preserved. They are listed in these books.

- Hans Heinz Diehlmann (Hrsg.): Die Türkensteuer im Herzogtum Preußen 1540. Band 2: Memel, Tilsit. (Sonderschrift 88/2), 331 S. u. 2 Karten. Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., Hamburg 2007 (flächendeckendes Namensregister der steuerzahlenden Bevölkerung)

- Hans Heinz Diehlmann (Hrsg.): Die Türkensteuer im Herzogtum Preußen 1540, Band 3: Ragnit, Insterburg, Saalau, Georgenburg. (Sonderschrift 88/3), Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., 88/3, Hamburg 2008

[Jarl]

AFAIK German sch (http://www.pauljoycegerman.co.uk/pronounce/audio/schlaf.wav) is pronounced as ʃ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_sibilant)[sh] rather than [sk], so Lithuanian ručkė [rutshkė] (ė is pronounced like something in between i and e) would be closer to the original than "Russky" would.

Yes, that is true. And probably more likely given the location. But I never argued they sound "more Slavic than Lithuanian". I merely pointed out they might be Slavic.


Prussian-Lithuanian settlements round 1540.
All the names of the tax-payers have been preserved. They are listed in these books.

- Hans Heinz Diehlmann (Hrsg.): Die Türkensteuer im Herzogtum Preußen 1540. Band 2: Memel, Tilsit. (Sonderschrift 88/2), 331 S. u. 2 Karten. Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., Hamburg 2007 (flächendeckendes Namensregister der steuerzahlenden Bevölkerung)

- Hans Heinz Diehlmann (Hrsg.): Die Türkensteuer im Herzogtum Preußen 1540, Band 3: Ragnit, Insterburg, Saalau, Georgenburg. (Sonderschrift 88/3), Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., 88/3, Hamburg 2008

Excellent map Skomand! Thanks for sharing! I have given this subject some more time. And actually the current border does more less follow the ethnic boundary. I think it can hardly be a coincidence.


From what I know the fairly solid Masur settlement reached the line Dubenningken-Goldap-Nordenburg. Most of Kreis Angerburg was predominantly Masurian until XIXth century. There were some Lithuanians in the city itself, but mixed Lithuanian-Masurian settlements in which Lithuanian element was strong began further to the North at the Angerburg-Darkehmen border. In the first half of XIX century there were still some 3500 Poles in and a few hundred Lithuanians in Kreis Angerburg. Angerburg was most affected by germanisation.

In 1825, according to census, Poles (Masurs) constituted:

Lyck - 88,8%
Lötzen - 86,2%
Sensburg - 85,6%
Neidenburg - 92,8%
Marggrabowa/Oletzko - 79,9% (in 1825 this was definitely higher)
Ostreode - 63,8%
Jansbork/Pisz - 93,0%
Ortelsburg - 92,8%
Angerburg - 57,1% (seems low, but Angerburg had some old German settlement too)


Im not sure about Goldap. In Darkehmen, Gerdauen and Rastembork there were only single parishes (in the 1st case often mixed-Lithuanian). The full extent of the colonisation with a map is given here:

http://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=6173&from=FBC

By a XIXth century Polish-Masurian writer and ethnologist - Wojciech Kętrzyński. In fact Kętrzyński was born Adalbert von Winkler and could not speak Polish at all, but he later realised that his family was of Polish noble ancestry and became a passionate defender of the Masurian cause.

http://www.emazury.com/images/ludzie/wojciech_ketrzynski_b.jpg


In contrast to Angerburg, Darkehmen was predominantly Lithuanian up to XIXth century, and only in the South there were some Masurian-Lithuanian and Masurian parishes like Szabinen. Goldap was more less half/half still by the early XIXth century there were still over 3000 Lithuanains and Masurs in the country. Up to XXth century Polish boundary reclined onto the Czarne-Soldany line, as shown here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnic_map_East_Prussia_1907.jpeg

So by about 1905 Masurian element shifted from the Angerburg-Darkehmen border onto Angerburg-Lotzen. But in the neighbouring Goldap it proved more resistant. By 1945, afaik, the boundary reclined even further into Northern Lotzen and Lyck.






I am quite positive that by 1825 Poles and Lithuanians still shared a common boundary all the way from Nordenbork to Dubienniki. So judging by the situation in 1945, it would seem that the Lithuanians had been germanised to far greater extent.



In 1825

Darkehmen (without the city) - 18,315 German 2,970 Lithuanians 478 Poles

Goldap (without the city) - 14,524 Germans 3,804 Poles 3,546 Lithuanians

Angerburg (without the city) - 12,297 Poles 9,105 Germans 66 Lithuanians

[Jarl]

By 1945, afaik, the boundary reclined even further into Northern Lotzen and Lyck.

Actually I was wrong here. There were still Polish-speakers in a handful of villages in Southern Angerburg and Goldap in 45 and after.

[Skomand]

Might be of interest in that context:

Gustav Gisevius: Die polnische Sprachfrage in Preußen. Leipzig 1845

http://books.google.de/books?id=bMkAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA112&dq=litthauisch&hl=de&ei=06fUTOLzNJa8jAf1oeXOCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAzhG#v=onepage&q=litthauisch&f=false

[Jarl]

Might be of interest in that context:

Gustav Gisevius: Die polnische Sprachfrage in Preußen. Leipzig 1845

http://books.google.de/books?id=bMkAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA112&dq=litthauisch&hl=de&ei=06fUTOLzNJa8jAf1oeXOCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAzhG#v=onepage&q=litthauisch&f=false



Yes. This more less confirms what Kętrzyński wrote. By very early XIX century the last remaining Polish church services in Kreis Gerdauen were cancelled and the only parish where Polish was oficially still a spoken language was Żabiny. Gisewius gives very interesting stats from 1834 37 and 40 on p 62 for the whole Southern East Prussia. Interestingly the numbers stay the same indicating predominant Polish element, however only in Angerburg the dwindle very rapidly. I wonder why only there...




But Gisewius write that by 1834 there were only Lithuanian masses in Gewaiten and Mehlkehmen in Goldap - can that be true? I read that Sabinen was a mixed parish, so was Gurnen, Goldap, Dubienniki. Did the Lithuanian element recede from there already by 1834? What was the Lithuanian language border in Ostpreussen by 1945?

[Skomand]

please delete

[Minde]

The most pointless thread on the forum

[Skomand]

And why would you say that? If you find no arguments your remark stands as the most pointless contribution to this thread.

[Aunt Hilda]

The most pointless thread on the forum

actually one of the most informative, least trolled on threads.

[Skomand]

Can somebody access this article?
-----------------------------------
Lithuania Minor and Prussia on the old maps (1525–1808)

Geodesy and Cartography
Volume 39, Issue 1, 2013

Viktoras Lukoševičius

pages 23-39

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3846/20296991.2013.786872#.UafYu9hmMt5


Abstract

While continuing researches on ancient cartography the publication is aimed at viewing maps of Lithuania Minor and Prussia in the perspective of historical events, with a special emphasis on most important historical events as well as cartography development moments. The method used is analysis of different maps, by different authors, found in cartographical archives. The article presents the authors and designers 37 maps of Lithuania Minor and Prussia and discusses map characteristics. It also provides links that are helpful for the readers interested in a more detailed studies of specific maps.

Summarizing research results the authors conclude that ancient maps where Lithuania Minor is marked are true historical witnesses helping to understand long and complicated formation process of Lithuania Minor and the state of Lithuania; however the analysis alone is insufficient to fully reveal its historic concept.

[Jonik]

The same period:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11874710/img/Anonymous/ethnic.jpg
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11874710/img/Anonymous/ethnic.jpg

What are the red bold lines in the top right corner?
My paternal ancestor line was from this territory.

[tiger]

What are the red bold lines in the top right corner?
My paternal ancestor line was from this territory.

It’s the mixed area of Latvian and Russian.
38186

Russian was also spreading into Lithuania from Latvia (top right corner):
38187

[Jonik]

It’s the mixed area of Latvian and Russian.
38186

Russian was also spreading into Lithuania from Latvia (top right corner):
38187

Thank you for comments. Unfortunately 2 new maps from the modern time.
At least Dvinsk in 1897 should be with other color of language, about 70% population was Jewish people. I believe that they spoken Yiddish , not Latgalian, Polish or Russian.

[tiger]

Thank you for comments. Unfortunately 2 new maps from the modern time.
At least Dvinsk in 1897 should be with other color of language, about 70% population was Jewish people. I believe that they spoken Yiddish , not Latgalian, Polish or Russian.

The same goes for the Lithuanian capital and the few other cities. Many cities of Europe were predominantly jewish at that time, and they were changed by other ethnicities after the war. But, I suppose, little has changed in the distribution of Latvian language in eastern Latvia, at least in comparison with e.g. Lithuanian language shrank in western Belarus or East Prussia.

[Skomand]

Free PDF (it loads painfully slowly)

http://www.tausendschoen-verlag.de/PDF/Memelland.pdf

Thorwald Poschenrieder:
Deutsch- und baltischsprachige Preußen
des Memellandes

[Litwinorum]

Several maps: Guillaume de Lisle 1739
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10923194_1555727828004624_5898897032686917630_n.jp g?oh=0ab4cf3024387f69f0805bf9b64c862c&oe=5524F447&__gda__=1433219454_f5b4552c371b1a385e6135f2728876f 0

[Litwinorum]

Schenk, Pieter

Place: Amsterdam

Publisher: Pieter Schenk

Date:1740

Description:
Copper-engraved map, hand-colored; uncolored cartouche. 46x58 cm. (18x23"). Title from cartouche; title also in Latin, across top: "Regni Poloniae Magni Ducatus Lithuaniae ...."
http://www.pbagalleries.com/images/lot/5456/54569_0.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10428666_1552455154998558_8796427311727196403_n.jp g?oh=8ffcdd0d287c36da8fe0fb41c49e38a2&oe=556E0BFE&__gda__=1429037941_f9009ee0844dee092b94a025b503382 9

[Rugevit]

Lots of historic maps of the GDL

1. http://www.karty.by/tag/%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5-%D0%BA%D0%BD%D1%8F%D0%B6%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D 0%BE-%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D 0%B5-magni-ducatus-lithuaniae-granddukelithuania/
2. http://www.karty.by/tag/%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0-lietuva-litva/

[Peterski]

About censuses of 1915 - 1919 carried out in Lithuania and in Belarus:

German censuses in the city of Vilnius:

http://www.kpbc.ukw.edu.pl/dlibra/plain-content?id=37961

Polish census of December 1919 in Polish North-Eastern Borderlands (with introduction by Eugeniusz Romer):

http://dziemiela.com/personal/documents/Spis_Ludnosci_1919.pdf

54762

54763

54764

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54762&d=1423055487
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54763&d=1423055500
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54764&d=1423055512

German census of 1916 in Lithuania - results for Polish and Lithuanian nationalities:

Lengyelek = Poles
Litvanok = Lithuanians
Lengyel-litvan etnikai hatar = Polish-Lithuanian ethnic boundary

54765
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54765&d=1423055649

============================================

NUMERICAL STRENGTH OF POLISH MINORITY IN BELARUS AND LITHUANIA NOWADAYS:

After WW2, despite large-scale deportations of Poles from areas annexed by the USSR, many Poles remained in those former Polish territories.

That was especially the case in Western Belarus and Lithuania, where Polish presence had been stronger (in terms of %) than in Ukraine:

Number of Poles deported by railway from Western Belarus after WW2:

1945 – 135,654
1946 – 136,419
1947 – 2,090
=========
1955 – 10,067
1956 – 30,639
1957 – 46,634
1958 – 13,290

Number of Poles deported by railway from Lithuania after WW2:

1945 – 73,042
1946 – 123,443
1947 – 671
=========
1955 – 5,849
1956 – 17,825
1957 – 16,044
1958 – 6,834

In total 274,163 from Western Belarus (areas which on 01.09.1939 belonged to Poland) and 197,156 from Lithuania in first repatriation (1944-1948) as well as 100,630 from Western Belarus and 46,552 from Lithuania in second repatriation (1955-1959).

However, as Polish geographer and historian - Piotr Eberhardt - noticed in article about ethnic Poles from Belarus:

"According to official data 274,2 thousand Poles came from Western Belarus to Poland . But in fact a lot more came. Official data does not include all categories of Polish people who left former eastern Polish territories. During the German occupation many Poles from those Eastern territories were transported to Germany [as compulsory labour workers, prisoners of POW camps, concentration camp inmates, etc.]. They stayed in the West and after WW2 returned directly to Poland within its new borders, not to their former homes. Official data also did not include flights and groups of refugees, people recruited to the Polish Army [including Polish People's Army], as well as those who in 1942 left the Soviet Union with the Army of gen. Anders. After counting all these categories of people we can conclude, that the broadly understood first repatriation from Western Belarus affected over 400 thousand people of Polish nationality, who as the result abandoned forever the territory of Belarus. (…) In further years (1948-1959) remaining Polish population in Belarus experienced considerable natural growth. It was, however, entirely reduced by another repatriation conducted in years 1955-1959, which included around 250,000 [245,501] people permanently leaving the Soviet Union."

What can be added is that official data for first repatriation given above included deportations by railway, in addition to them also deportations by trucks took place – they transported in total 22,815 Poles from the Soviet Union to Poland, but no breakdown is given so we don't know how many of them were from Western Belarus and from Lithuania.

Numbers of Poles deported by railway from Eastern Belarus (pre-1939 Soviet Belarus) are also not included in those figures given above – they are included among Poles deported from „other parts of the Soviet Union”, who amounted to 266,833 in period 1944-1949 and 22,260 more in period 1955-1959 (these numbers also include Poles deported from pre-1939 Soviet Ukraine – while numbers of Poles deported from Western Ukraine were 787,674 in 1944-1948 and 76,059 more in 1955-1959).

The real number of Poles who left Western Belarus in 1944-1959 was therefore over 500,000 (including over 400,000 in 1944-1947) and the number of those who left Lithuania over 250,000 up to 300,000 (including over 200,000 up to 250,000 in 1944-1947).

We don't know how many left or were deported from Eastern Belarus – but according to pre-WW2 official Soviet census of 1926 Polish minority in Soviet Belarus numbered around 100 thousand people at that time (97,500). Add to this natural increase until WW2, and the number was much higher in the 1930s. Another question is how many of them survived Soviet pre-war persecutions (see the Polish Operation of the NKVD in 1937 - 1938) and then WW2. Anyway - according to 1959 census Eastern Belarus had a smaller number of Poles (see below).

Official data for number of Poles deported by railway and trucks – as already explained above - is not the full picture because apart from repatriation there were other ways how Poles from Kresy migrated to Poland after WW2. Already until 01.01.1947 almost 560,000 people who came through ways other than repatriation (including refugees, demobilized soldiers, those who before WW2 lived east of the Curzon Line but who after WW2 came from camps & forced labour in Germany and settled west of the CL, etc.). In total on 1 January 1947 there were 2,05 million „Soviet Poles” in new borders of Poland. And in December 1950 - 2,2 million „Soviet Poles”.

On 1 January 1947 out of those 2,05 million „Soviet Poles” – 1,7 million lived in former German territories (of them around 1,24 million deported by railway and trucks, 190 thousand who came from the west – for example from forced labour in Germany, POW camps, etc. - 200 thousand who were refugees from the Volhynian-Galician Genocide and similar events and around 70 thousand demobilized soldiers, mostly from the Polish People's Army) and 0,35 million in other parts of Poland (here we can estimate that no more than 0,25 million were officially deported and the rest of them were forced labourers returning from Germany, refugees, POWs, etc.).

In December 1950 out of 2,2 million „Soviet Poles” around 1,6 million lived in former German territories (Western Poland) and around 0,6 million in other parts of new Communist Poland (Central Poland). So proportion of those living in Central Poland increased).

Despite all those events – wartime deaths and post-war deportations, flights, emigration, evacuations, etc. of hundreds of thousands of Poles from former Polish territories, after WW2 belonging to the Soviet Union – the official Soviet census of 1959 still counted 1,380,282 Poles in the Soviet Union, with 768,988 of them (so over half of the total number) in Belarusian SSR and Lithuanian SSR.

Even if we go by this official Soviet 1959 census data, which – most probably – underestimated the number of remaining Polish minority in the Soviet Union, the following area had absolute Polish majority, and was still ethnically Polish in 1959, even though less so than before WW2:

Areas still inhabited by ethnic Polish majority as of 1959, after removal of most of ethnic Polish population (http://images70.fotosik.pl/207/d393f526745778ae.jpg)

http://images70.fotosik.pl/207/d393f526745778ae.jpg

[B]According to official Soviet Union's 1959 census there were still 538,881 Poles in Belarus, of whom 454,348 (84,3%) were rural population – as flights and deportations of 1944-1959 as well as previous wartime mortality affected urban Poles more than rural Poles.

Number of Poles in Belarus by Oblast according to 1959 census:

In provinces located entirely in what used to be Polish part of Belarus before WW2:

Grodno Oblast – 332,300
Brest Oblast – 42,100

In provinces located mostly in former Polish territory, but partially in Soviet Belarus:

Vitebsk Oblast – 83,800
Minsk Oblast – 64,400

And in provinces located entirely in what was Soviet Belarus before WW2:

Gomel Oblast – 7,200
City Minsk – 5,600
Mogilev Oblast – 3,500

Districts of North-Western Belarus with highest percentages (between 90% and 30%) of Poles according to 1959 census (and there were many more districts in 1959 with between 15% and 30% Poles, but I won't list them here. Many of them had over 50% Poles in 1938):

Radun - 25,842 Poles (87,4%) and 1,705 Belarusians
Voranava – 16,117 Poles (86,8%) and 1,342 Belarusians
Ivyanets – 27,529 Poles (75,6%) and 7,830 Belarusians
Svir – 20,898 Poles (72,0%) and 6,320 Belarusians
Astravyets – 17,966 Poles (65,5%) and 6,831 Belarusians
Lida – 40,117 Poles (55,1%) and 22,048 Belarusians
Vidzy – 9,468 Poles (51,2%) and 5,176 Belarusians
Shchuchyn – 19,032 Poles (50,4%) and 14,781 Belarusians
Vasilishki – 16,496 Poles (49,9%) and 15,648 Belarusians
=================
Pastavy – 18,912 Poles (43,3%) and 17,173 Belarusians
Braslaw – 14,873 Poles (40,6%) and 14,482 Belarusians
=================
Dunilovichi – 13,857 Poles (47,0%) and 14,024 Belarusians
Ivye – 12,877 Poles (41,5%) and 16,552 Belarusians
Grodno – 50,159 Poles (38,1%) and 51,570 Belarusians
Valozhyn – 14,063 Poles (37,8%) and 21,652 Belarusians
Vawkavysk – 21,924 Poles (35,4%) and 32,140 Belarusians
Zelva – 11,175 Poles (29,1%) and 26,001 Belarusians

In total according to 1959 census these 17 districts had 713,988 inhabitants, including 351,305 Poles, 275,275 Belarusians, 66,537 Russians and 20,871 people of other nationalities (including the Romani people and others brought in to replace expelled Poles).

=================================================

According to official Soviet Union's 1959 census there were still 230,107 Poles in Lithuania of whom 161,523 (70,2%) were rural population - as flights and deportations of 1944-1959 as well as previous wartime mortality affected urban Poles more than rural Poles.

Districts with highest percentages of Poles according to 1959 census:

City Vilnius – 47,226 Poles (20,0%) and 79,363 Lithuanians (33,6%)
=================
Vilnius – 64,467 Poles (80,3%) and 5,546 Lithuanians (6,9%)
Salcininkai – 37,182 Poles (85,2%) and 2,918 Lithuanians (6,7%)
=================
Trakai (+ Elektrenai) – 24,332 Poles (43,4%) and 5,103 Lithuanians (9,1%)
Svencionys – 18,158 Poles (45,7%) and 5,901 Lithuanians (14,9%)

In total according to 1959 census these 6 districts had over 455,000 inhabitants, including 191,365 Poles, 98,831 Lithuanians and about 165,000 other people (mostly Russian immigrants, as well as for example the Romani and others brought in to replace expelled Poles).

====================================

In total those 23 districts of Western Belarus and Lithuania according to 1959 census had ca. 1,170,000 inhabitants including - according to official data - ca. 543,000 Poles (or over 70% of all ethnic Poles living in these two Soviet republics at that time), despite previous ethnic cleansing.

All of Belarus and Lithuania had 768,988 ethnic Poles according to official 1959 data - including 615,871 rural people (80,1% of the total) and 153,117 urban people (19,9% of the total) - even though before WW2 ethnic Poles in Belarus and Lithuania were more urbanized than all other ethnic groups living in these regions, with the only exception of Jews. That was because post-war deportations and wartime losses affected ethnic Poles in cities (such as for example Vilnius and Grodno) more heavily than ethnic Poles in the countryside. Due to that expulsion of Poles from cities (and from villages as well, only to a lesser extent) and replacement by other ethnic groups, in 1959 Poles were actually the least urbanized (only 19,9%) of all ethnic groups in Belarus and Lithuania (the opposite of the 1938 situation, when Poles were the 2nd most urbanized group after Jews).

Soviet authorities left a larger % of rural Poles, hoping that Polish peasants were easier to De-Polonize (Lithuanize/Russify/Belarusify).

On the other hand a larger % of urban Poles - with a higher level of national consciousness (sense of Polishness) - got deported.

=========================================

Despite this, modern studies carried out recently by the Grodno University and by the Minsk University show that vast majority of Roman Catholics in Belarus identify as Poles and an even larger percent declare Polish ancestry (i.e. some no longer identify as fully Poles, but still declare Polish ancestry).

For research carried out by Grodno University, which shows that 83,3% of Roman Catholics in the Grodno Oblast identify as fully Poles (the rest of Roman Catholics there identify as both Poles and Belarusians or just Belarusians) and even more - because 95% - declare Polish ancestry (including also mixed Polish-Belarusian ancestry) check this source:

http://s28.postimg.org/wzksyvrbh/Source_1.png

In another survey from 2003, as many as 82% of Catholics in Belarus declared that they have Polish ancestry, including 66% with fully Polish ancestry and 16% from mixed families. In the westernmost Diocese of Grodno 95% of Catholics declared Polish ancestry, while in the easternmost Archdiocese of Minsk-Mogilev still as many as 73%.

This 2003 survey found out that 80% of Catholics in the Diocese of Grodno identify as fully Poles - so slightly less than according to that 2000 research by the University of Grodno (which showed 83,3%). In other dioceses percentages of Roman Catholics who identify as fully Polish are 70% in the Diocese of Pinsk, 57% in the Diocese of Vitebsk and just 35% in the Archdiocese of Minsk-Mogilev (compared to 73% who declared Polish ancestry in the Archdiocese of Minsk-Mogilev).

In the nationwide scale (entire Belarus on average), 63% of Roman Catholics identify as fully Poles (2003 data), 66% declare fully Polish ancestry, and 16% declare mixed Polish-Belarusian or Polish-other ancestry (in total 82% declare Polish ancestry). Regional breakdowns above.

There are also a lot of Non-Catholic (Atheist, Orthodox, etc.) Poles in Belarus, because in some regions % of Poles is higher than % of Catholics.

Belarusians are slowly becoming Russians.

In 1959 census only 6,8% of people who declared Belarusian ethnicity declared that Russian is their native language.

By comparison, in 1999 census only 41,3% of people who declare Belarusian ethnicity declared that they speak Belarusian in daily life (among urban population who declare Belarusian ethnicity, only 23% spoke Belarusian in daily life in 1999).

Poles in Belarus are also increasingly adopting Belarusian and Russian languages. Currently percent of ethnic Poles who speak Belarusian language in their daily life is higher than percent of ethnic Belarusians who speak Belarusian in daily life.

According to official data of 1999 census there were 1,141,700 ethnic Russians in Belarus, of whom 1,092,700 (95,7%) spoke Russian and 48,500 (4,2%) spoke Belarusian in daily life. By comparison, out of 8,159,100 ethnic Belarusians only 3,373,300 (41,3%) spoke Belarusian and 4,783,000 (58,6%) spoke Russian in daily life. So instead of being a Pole-hater Gudas should rather start trying to prevent extinction of Belarusian culture.

Nowadays in Belarus ethnic Poles are culturally more Belarusian than Belarusians themselves. Belarus is turning into Russia:

Why does Lukashenko speak Belarusian on Independence Day? (http://en.delfi.lt/central-eastern-europe/why-does-lukashenko-speak-belarusian-on-independence-day.d?id=65337150)

In the future perhaps Eastern Belarus will be annexed by Russia, just like Crimea and Donetsk-Lugansk recently. Then Western Belarus - inhabited largely by people who declare Polish ancestry and mostly still identify as Polish - will maybe want to join Poland again, by a democratic decision of its inhabitants.

=====================================

Comparison of the contemporary situation of Polish minority in Lithuania and of Lithuanian minority in Poland:

http://s7.postimg.org/4v7wtmasr/PL_in_LT_LT_in_PL.png

Source:

The contemporary situation of Polish minority in Lithuania and Lithuanian minority in Poland from the institutional perspective (http://www.geographiapolonica.pl/article/item/9408.html)

Of course the situation of Polish minority in Lithuania is still much better than the situation of Polish minority in Belarus and in Ukraine.

Recently a large number of Polish minority members from the war-ravaged region of Donbass have been evacuated to Poland.

========================
========================

And below some data from 2003 "Ethnic Groups and Population Changes in Twentieth-Century Central-Eastern Europe" by Piotr Eberhardt. After WW2 expelled Poles were replaced mostly by Russian (as well as Ukrainian/Belarusian/Lithuanian, but to a lesser extent) immigrants:

http://s8.postimg.org/4xhxjah7p/Belarus_Changes.png

http://s15.postimg.org/uwdd9f6gb/Ukraine_Changes.png

There is a typo in the number of Russians in 1959 Ukraine. It should read 7,091,300 - check:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine

http://s30.postimg.org/6w8k2skld/Changes_Lithuania.png

http://s29.postimg.org/hewu7goyv/Lithuania_1959.png

[Peterski]

Religions in 1931 in what is now part of Belarus and Lithuania (except for Kamin-Kashyrskyi which is in Ukraine):

54768

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54768&d=1423071797

Comparison of percent of Roman Catholics and percent of Poles by county (except for Kamin-Kashyrskyi) in 1931:

54769

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54769&d=1423071805

=======================================

Map by Polish scholar Piotr Eberhardt based on censuses (1959 was the last reliable census in Belarus, after that the number of Poles in Belarus is being falsified, underreported - so from 1959 to 1999 the area with Polish majority in Belarus shrank on paper only):

2) "A" + "B" + "C" = majority ethnic Polish territory before 1921:

54770

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54770&d=1423072126

[FeederOfRavens]

Foundation of Vilnius

According to the legend, Baltic Lithuanian Grand Duke Gediminas (ca. 1275 – 1341) was hunting in the sacred forest near the Valley of Šventaragis, near where Vilnia River flows into the Neris River.

Tired after the successful hunt of a wisent, the Grand Duke settled in for the night. He fell soundly asleep and dreamed of a huge Iron Wolf standing on top a hill and howling as strong and loud as a hundred of wolves.

Upon awakening, the Duke asked krivis (Baltic pagan priest) Lizdeika to interpret the dream. And the priest told him:
"What is destined for the ruler and the State of Lithuania, is thus: the Iron Wolf represents a castle and a city which will be established by you on this site. This city will be the capital of the Lithuanian lands and the dwelling of their rulers, and the glory of their deeds shall echo throughout the world."

Therefore, Gediminas, obeying the will of gods, built the city, and took it the name Vilnius – from the stream of the Vilnia River.

[Peterski]

Now tell us about the foundation of Londinium and how it became a freaking English-speaking city later.

Then tell us when is Britain going to return Londinium to Italy and / or to some Celtic-speakers (Ireland maybe).

Oh wait, Ireland is mostly English-speaking, and Northern Ireland (Ulster) even rejects its ethnic Irishness.

[Peterski]

What about Latin-speaking Roman Colonia Agrippina (Köln), Bonna (Bonn), Mogontiacum (Mainz), Augusta Treverorum (Trier), Noviomagus (Speyer), Augusta Vindelicorum (Augsburg), Castra Regina (Regensburg), Basilea (Basel), Constantia (Konstanz), Argentoratum (Strasbourg), etc.?

Perhaps these cities should be returned to Romance-speaking peoples, since Romance languages are descendants of Latin.

[Lizdeika]

Not sure what exactly you are trying to prove here. Vilnius was established by lithuanians. At some point in the past (after Poland and Lithuania established a union) poles imigrated into the area (+ polonization of local lithuanians). As a result the city got filled with polish speaking people (it is worth to mention that the city was several times smaller then it is right now). These days Vilnius is once again lithuanian. The majority of population in Vilnius are lithuanians.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that migration does not decide anything. Vilnius was and remains as a capital of Lithuania. everyone agrees that Vilnius is a city that made influence to many cultures. Yet it does not change the fact that this is a lithuanian city. If one would follow your logic then one could start saying that some UK city belongs to Poland just because there are a lot of poles in there.

[Peterski]

Lizdeika,

This thread is about ethnic borders - not political ones. And Vilnius was Polish-Lithuanian, part of our Commonwealth, it was one state (like the United Kingdom, Italy or France). Had Lithuanian-speakers not started their "Linguistic Nationalism", Lithuania and Poland (as well as Belarus, etc.) could be once again united in 1918. The UK, France and Italy are countries which consisted of many ethnic groups and speakers of many languages. But in our part of Europe every little group of speakers of something had to have their own country.

Languages in France in period 1789 - 1806 (green territory = area where majority of population spoke French, "Francais"):

http://www.statistiques-mondiales.com/cartes/france_langues.gif

Can you tell me why for example Occitan-speakers did not want to start their own independent country ???

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - just like France - also included speakers of several languages.

But in France everyone gradually adopted French language, which was spoken by the most numerous group (58,5%):

Languages in France (within modern borders) by number of speakers in year 1806:

Langues d'oïl (French) - 16,408,000 - 58,5%
Occitan - 8,461,000 - 25,0%
Francoprovençal - 2,197,000 - 7,4%
Dialectes allemands - 1,036,498 - 3,5%
Breton - 985,558 - 3,3%
Corse - 174,702 - 0,6%
Flamand - 156,973 - 0,5%
Catalan - 118,700 - 0,4%
Basque - 109,306 - 0,4%

Total - 29,648,000 - 100,0%

But France did not fragment into independent: France, Occitania, Provence, Corsica, Alsace, Bretagne, etc.

Also, people adopted the dominant language - French (which in 1806 was spoken only by 58,5% and today by almost everyone).

On the other hand, our Commonwealth fragmented into Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Latvia, etc.

And many Lithuanians are hostile towards Polish language (dominant in the PLC), for some reason.

[Peterski]

Lizdeika,

In the United Kingdom they also have: English, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, Northern Irish, etc. people - yet they are one country.

And even though they used to speak different languages in the past, nowadays almost all of them speak English.

[FeederOfRavens]

Lizdeika,

This thread is about ethnic borders - not political ones. And Vilnius was Polish-Lithuanian, part of our Commonwealth, it was one state (like the United Kingdom, Italy or France). Had Lithuanian-speakers not started their "Linguistic Nationalism", Lithuania and Poland (as well as Belarus, etc.) could be once again united in 1918. The UK, France and Italy are countries which consisted of many ethnic groups and speakers of many languages. But in our part of Europe every little group of speakers of something had to have their own country.

Languages in France in period 1789 - 1806 (green territory = area where majority of population spoke French, "Francais"):

http://www.statistiques-mondiales.com/cartes/france_langues.gif

Can you tell me why for example Occitan-speakers did not want to start their own independent country ???

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - just like France - also included speakers of several languages.

But in France everyone gradually adopted French language, which was spoken by the most numerous group (58,5%):

Languages in France (within modern borders) by number of speakers in year 1806:

Langues d'oïl (French) - 16,408,000 - 58,5%
Occitan - 8,461,000 - 25,0%
Francoprovençal - 2,197,000 - 7,4%
Dialectes allemands - 1,036,498 - 3,5%
Breton - 985,558 - 3,3%
Corse - 174,702 - 0,6%
Flamand - 156,973 - 0,5%
Catalan - 118,700 - 0,4%
Basque - 109,306 - 0,4%

Total - 29,648,000 - 100,0%

But France did not fragment into independent: France, Occitania, Provence, Corsica, Alsace, Bretagne, etc.

Also, people adopted the dominant language - French (which in 1806 was spoken only by 58,5% and today by almost everyone).

On the other hand, our Commonwealth fragmented into Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Latvia, etc.

And many Lithuanians are hostile towards Polish language (dominant in the PLC), for some reason.

So do you believe the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth should've assimilated all the Lithuanians, Ruthenians, Russians, Cossacks and Germans into the dominant Polish linguistic group? Like what happened to France and UK?

Because if so it says a lot about the Polish Nationalism which I accused you of some time ago.

[Peterski]

Below some data illustrating the effects of post-war deportations on ethnic Polish population in the Grodno-Vilna areas of Belarus:

This data is from an article written (in Polish) by a Belarusian from Grodno - Siarhiej Tokć:

http://kamunikat.fontel.net/pdf/bzh/22/03.pdf

Examples from three raions (counties) - Wasiliszki, Wołkowysk and Skidel. If we count these three counties altogether then their total population in 1945-1947 (Skidel in 1947, the other two counties in 1945) was - according to Belarusian data - 124.451 including 60.615 Poles, 61.295 Belarusians, 1.407 Russians and 1.134 others. By 1959 their population was 136.382 including 43.356 Poles, 80.307 Belarusians, 9.637 Russians and 3.082 others.

So the percentage of Russians among the population increased from 1.13% in 1945-1947 to 7.07% in 1959.

In 1945 Poles were an absolute majority in Wasiliszki and Wołkowysk. By 1959 they were still a relative majority (49.2%) only in Wasiliszki:

54957
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54957&d=1423534009

[Peterski]

Ethnic situation in north-eastern Poland in 1919-1921, after the end of WW1:

75-100% Lithuanian / 75-100% Polish / 75-100% Belarusian / Mixed areas:

55286

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=55286&d=1424446800