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Siegfried
06-08-2012, 10:57 PM
Shaanxi Province is preparing to apply for world cultural and natural heritage listing for its Tongwancheng Town, the world's only ruins of ancient Huns, ancient Chinese nomadic tribe which fought across northern China, central Asia and Europe.

"The ruined town will give important clues to the study of the Huns who disappeared nearly 1,000 years ago," said Zhang Tinghao, director of the Shaanxi Cultural Relics Bureau.

The 1,600-year-old ruined town is in Jingbian County of northwest China's Shaanxi Province. The place is only 500 kilometers away from Xi'an, which was named Chang'an in ancient times and served as the capital of six feudal dynasties.

The Huns, thriving in the third century B.C., became one of the largest nomadic ethnic group in North China and established the first slave regime of the nomadic ethnic tribe in China at the end of the Second Century B.C.

During the Qin (221-206 B.C.) and the Han (206-220 B.C.) dynasties, the Huns subdued regimes ruled by other northern ethnic groups in the Western Regions which included present-day Xinjiang and parts of Central Asia, and became a big threat to the domain of feudal empires in the Central Plains.

During the first century B.C., the Huns were defeated by imperial troops led by Emperor Hanwu, the most famous in the Western Han Dynasty, and then split into two parts, the Northern Huns and the Southern Huns.

From the year 89 to 91 A.D., the main force of the Northern Huns, defeated by the Southern Huns and the imperial troops of the Eastern Han Dynasty (25-220) successively, moved to the Ili River valley, Central Asia, regions east to the Don River and the Volga River valley.

"The Huns played an important role in the world history, especially in the shaping of the European nationalities and the development of European history," said Lin Gan, a professor specializing in the study of Huns at the Inner Mongolian University.

In 374, Huns migrating westwards exterminated the country established by the Alanis, raising the curtain of the Nordic nomadic nationalities' aggression of the European farming nationalities. It is just under the pressure of the Huns that the Goths invaded the Roman Empire and even reached the city gate of Rome. And in the fifth century, the Huns, after crossing over the Danube River and the Rhine River, entered into the western Europe and established the Attila Empire in the fifth century.

Tongwancheng Town, as the capital of Daxia, a regime established by the descendants of the Huns in the fifth century, was one of the most complete, grand and solid capitals ever built by minority ethnic groups in Chinese history and the only capital city of the Huns still exist in the world.

"Construction of the Tongwancheng Town is another great feat made by human beings, reflecting people's strong desire for survival and development on desert," said Hou Yongjian, professor with the Shaanxi Normal University.

"The unique architectural feature and integrity of the Tongwancheng Town shown by aviation remote sensing and archaeological excavation have been generally recognized by experts both at home and abroad, that's why the Shaanxi provincial government selects the Tongwancheng capital site as a candidate for the world cultural and natural heritage list," said Liu Fulai, a research member with Shaanxi Archaeological Research Institute specializing in history of the Northern and Southern Dynasties (420-581).

The Tongwancheng Town comprises three parts: the palace section and the inner and the outer sections. The palace section is where the imperial palace located in, the inner section consists of government offices and the dwelling region of officials and royal relatives, while the outer section is the residential area of the common people.

"The town layout is quite ingenious. Built according to the terrain, the northwestern part of the town is higher and the southeastern part is lower, which effectively impeded cold winter wind blown from the north and fully took advantage of the river resources in the north of the town," said Dai Yingxin, an archaeologists who has been engaged in the survey and excavation at the Tongwancheng Town site for years.

As the town site is under the threat of desertification, the State Council designated Tongwancheng town as a cultural relics under top state protection in 1996.

Systematic restoration on Tongwancheng town has been launched. Repair of the Yong'an Platform, where Helianbobo, emperor of the Daxia regime, reviewed parading troops, has been finished and restoration on the 31-meter-tall turret will begin soon, said Gao Zhan who is in charge of routine management of this cultural relics.

"As a nationality, the Huns have disappeared, but many Huns have survived. A number of scholars consider the Hungarians are descendants of the Huns," said Wang Shiping, a research fellow with the Shaanxi Historical Museum.

The opinion was echoed by some Hungarian researchers. They say their homeland is closely related with the descendants of the Huns.

In addition, the cultural customs of the Huns still exist in many parts of the world.

For example, Hujia, a musical instrument once peculiar to the Huns, now is popular in Mongolia, Russia and North China's Inner Mongolian Autonomous Region and Northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region.

Source: http://www.china.org.cn/english/travel/92329.htm

Siegfried
06-08-2012, 11:00 PM
Tongwancheng:
http://history.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/upload/upfiles/2009-10/10/tongwancheng__the_only_hun_city_ever_discovered1dc 4a5adfd684e5b10ca.jpg
http://www.transoxiana.org/14/Images/obrusanszky_04-tongwancheng_tower.jpg
http://k.b5z.net/i/u/6046710/i/PICT0075_ezr.JPG
http://http://www.pan66.com/JingDianTuPian/tongwancheng2.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3410/4626299920_0dca9e2e42_m.jpg

Siegfried
06-10-2012, 08:57 PM
It's interesting to note that a group of nomadic horsemen like the Huns would have built such a city. Odd in fact that they would bother if they moved around on a regular basis. What do you think?

mvbeleg
06-10-2012, 11:37 PM
It's interesting to note that a group of nomadic horsemen like the Huns would have built such a city. Odd in fact that they would bother if they moved around on a regular basis. What do you think?

Such places would be needed as trade centers and symbols of political authority (if there was some kind of centralized authority, e.g., a chieftain or a king).

From what we know, it was not unusual among some of the so called `nomadic' horse cultures. Apparently, the Goths (in Ukraine), Scythians, and Mongols had some cities.

http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/cities/karakorum/kkfig01.jpg

Model of Mongol Capital, Karakorum

Onur
06-10-2012, 11:50 PM
Such places would be needed as trade centers and symbols of political authority (if there was some kind of centralized authority, e.g., a chieftain or a king).
This is exactly the answer.

Most people in the west tend to forget that these places was right on the famous "silk road" and for centuries, the trade activities in there has been controlled like;
From Chinese, Indians to the Huns/Turks, then from Huns/Turks to northern peoples like Vikings and from Vikings to Europe.

These ancient and medieval cities in central Asia served as a stopover points for the Chinese and Indian traders. They sold their herbs, fabric materials and accessories in these cities.

GeistFaust
06-10-2012, 11:59 PM
I remember hearing that Mongolians went to war with other peoples on the basis of economic reasons at first, because many of their traders were being attacked. It does not surprise me that they had some considerable advancements, although their mentality and behavior in war seemed to be quite repugnant and barbarian, but were many other peoples of the time. I remember hearing the Mongolians were rather tolerant of different beliefs and religion, and also built higher advanced programs of education in different cities, especially in China.


I mean technically these people were barbarian and brutal warriors, but was not most war fought in a brutal and barbarian manner outside of the Romans during this period. Yes, they were not as advanced, structured, and cultured overall then Europe during the time of the Middle Medieval to Upper Medieval period, but to ignore some of their relatively refined advancements is quite ridiculous.


I know many of them even constructed advanced weapons, and also incorporated advanced Persian military formats and strategical structures. Of course this is the Mongolians who did this, and the Huns were less advanced and unified as they expanded out, but it surely allows to realize that Eurasian/Mongoloid peoples were certainly not idiots. ;)

Onur
06-11-2012, 12:01 AM
Btw, this is wrong;

"As a nationality, the Huns have disappeared, but many Huns have survived. A number of scholars consider the Hungarians are descendants of the Huns," said Wang Shiping, a research fellow with the Shaanxi Historical Museum.

Huns was never a nation already. It was a tribal confederation of central Asian peoples and during their migration to the west in late 4th century, even some Germanic tribes like Goths joined them.



I mean technically these people were barbarian and brutal warriors, but was not most war fought in a brutal and barbarian manner outside of the Romans during this period.
Not technically, they were just considered and presented as barbarians by Romans. They had their own lifestyle, beliefs and own ways separate from Romans. Romans killed 100 times more people than Huns and Germanic tribes ever killed. If we consider brutality, then i can say that Romans was much more brutal against them like throwing them to the lions in coliseums for fun.

As you said, they were much more advanced than Romans in warfare technology. Germanic and Hunnic tribes was also far more advanced in observing the sky, calendar systems etc., most likely they learned these from Chinese or Indians.

GeistFaust
06-11-2012, 12:03 AM
I have heard that some people or aristocratic groups in certain countries like Bulgaria claim descendance from the Huns. Right?

Onur
06-11-2012, 12:20 AM
I have heard that some people or aristocratic groups in certain countries like Bulgaria claim descendance from the Huns. Right?
I don't know but whether they officially deny or not, Bulgarians was surely a member of Hunnic tribes. Can you name any other aristocrats from other countries?

Imho, all the slavs, turkic and uralic speaking peoples are more or less related with Huns. Even some germanics too but this is another issue.

Xenomorph
06-11-2012, 03:55 AM
When the Moghuls settled in India, many fo their buildings were built in a manner to resemble a nomadic tent. Old habits die hard.

Onur
06-11-2012, 11:23 AM
When the Moghuls settled in India, many fo their buildings were built in a manner to resemble a nomadic tent. Old habits die hard.
Yes thats true and here is another example of that but this is from today`s Ravenna, Italy.

The Mausoleum of Theodoric the Great. He ordered the construction of his own mausoleum while he was still alive and it resembles a yurt, mimicking his early life from pannonian plains. He was the king of eastern Goths who were allies of Attila`s Huns but later separated from them after Attila died and then they invaded Italy afterwards.

http://www.euroheritage.net/raven16.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2701/4124032134_5184a3db31.jpg

The main upper floor is definitely a yurt, nomad tent like this one;

http://static3.depositphotos.com/1009905/265/i/450/dep_2652002-Yurt---Nomads-tent.jpg

curiousman
06-11-2012, 12:09 PM
Yes thats true and here is another example of that but this is from today`s Ravenna, Italy.

The Mausoleum of Theodoric the Great. He ordered the construction of his own mausoleum while he was still alive and it resembles a yurt, mimicking his early life from pannonian plains. He was the king of eastern Goths who were allies of Attila`s Huns but later separated from them after Attila died and then they invaded Italy afterwards.

http://www.euroheritage.net/raven16.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2701/4124032134_5184a3db31.jpg

The main upper floor is definitely a yurt, nomad tent like this one;

http://static3.depositphotos.com/1009905/265/i/450/dep_2652002-Yurt---Nomads-tent.jpg




Then the mausoleum of Cecilia Metella in Rome should be a yurt too: :rolleyes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Sommer%2C_Giorgio_-_n._5045_-_Roma_-_Tomba_di_Cecilia_Metella_-_ca._1870.jpg


and the mausoleum of Hadrian an uberyurt :rolleyes::rolleyes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/c/ca/Roma_-_castel_Sant_Angelo_2.jpg


This moron called Onur is incapable of writing something about European history without vilifying in a way or the other the ancient Romans or at least downplaying their history :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Onur
06-11-2012, 12:58 PM
This moron called Onur is incapable of writing something about European history without vilifying in a way or the other the ancient Romans or at least downplaying their history :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Dr. Sauro Gelichi from university of Vienna and many other historians agrees with what i said. Watch this from the minute 40:20min;

r21w6qjz5kc

OR watch it from 33:00min about Theodoric and learn something because you are the real moron.

curiousman
06-11-2012, 03:28 PM
Every scholar of history of Italian art (and, like it or not, the mausoleum of Theoderic in Ravenna belongs to history of Italian art) knows that the mausoleum of Theoderic was inspired by Roman models. He had not even to go abroad to take inspiration from but he could admire them into his own kingdom, Italy. You turkey :rolleyes:

Onur
06-11-2012, 10:45 PM
Every scholar of history of Italian art (and, like it or not, the mausoleum of Theoderic in Ravenna belongs to history of Italian art) knows that the mausoleum of Theoderic was inspired by Roman models. He had not even to go abroad to take inspiration from but he could admire them into his own kingdom, Italy. You turkey :rolleyes:
You have no clue about this issue.

He was a Goth, speaking a language between Flemish and German. They were semi-nomadic people like Huns and Theodoric himself born in Pannonian plains. After they have been separated from Huns, they invaded Italy and ruled in there for half a century `till eastern Romans comes, beat them.

So, what Italian culture, art, Roman model you talking about? Theodoric and his people were the enemies of Romans with their so-called "heretic" Arianism belief and thats why eastern Romans came to Ravenna to end their reign.

Siegfried
06-12-2012, 12:27 AM
You have no clue about this issue.

He was a Goth, speaking a language between Flemish and German. They were semi-nomadic people like Huns and Theodoric himself born in Pannonian plains. After they have been separated from Huns, they invaded Italy and ruled in there for half a century `till eastern Romans comes, beat them.

So, what Italian culture, art, Roman model you talking about? Theodoric and his people were the enemies of Romans with their so-called "heretic" Arianism belief and thats why eastern Romans came to Ravenna to end their reign.

Gothic was an East-Germanic language, closer to modern North Germanic ones than West Germanic ones.

curiousman
06-12-2012, 07:36 AM
You have no clue about this issue.

He was a Goth, speaking a language between Flemish and German. They were semi-nomadic people like Huns and Theodoric himself born in Pannonian plains. After they have been separated from Huns, they invaded Italy and ruled in there for half a century `till eastern Romans comes, beat them.

So, what Italian culture, art, Roman model you talking about? Theodoric and his people were the enemies of Romans with their so-called "heretic" Arianism belief and thats why eastern Romans came to Ravenna to end their reign.


I'm talking about what I know for sure better than you, Italian history, to which belongs Theodoric, king of Italy for 33 years, one of longest reigns in all Italian history.
As a young boy Theodoric was brought as an hostage to the court of Constantinople and there educated for ten years as a Roman. After his coming in Italy he always presented himself as a defender and a promoter of Roman culture, of course in order to gain support from his Roman subjects.
Almost all of his ministers and secretaries were Romans and Catholics (Cassiodorus and Boethius just to name a few).
Talking about religious issues, his policy of religious tolerance was well known and praised by the Catholics too. He even sponsored Latin as liturgical language instead of Greek in order to promote an Italian national church less linked to Constantinople.
It's even said that he took up official residence in Verona (from which "Dietrich von Bern" as he is known in German history) to attend with the greatest pleasure the Circus games in the Arena, a typical Gothic entertainment :rolleyes:.

http://www.comune.marenodipiave.tv.it/it/NotizieAvvisi/Manifestazioni/Attivita/ArenaVerona/contentParagraph/0/image/arena.jpeg

Xenomorph
06-13-2012, 02:20 AM
Yes thats true and here is another example of that but this is from today`s Ravenna, Italy.

The Mausoleum of Theodoric the Great. He ordered the construction of his own mausoleum while he was still alive and it resembles a yurt, mimicking his early life from pannonian plains. He was the king of eastern Goths who were allies of Attila`s Huns but later separated from them after Attila died and then they invaded Italy afterwards.

http://www.euroheritage.net/raven16.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2701/4124032134_5184a3db31.jpg

The main upper floor is definitely a yurt, nomad tent like this one;

http://static3.depositphotos.com/1009905/265/i/450/dep_2652002-Yurt---Nomads-tent.jpg

Interesting. I knew about the mausoleum, btu not its origins.

On the debate over its origins, it looks to be a hybrid of Roman and nomadic styles. The supporting arches are Roman, but the overall design is not. Theodoric himself was a Goth, but was highly romanized.