Are Anatolian Turks ...

[Loki]

Vote in the poll. Okay poll added.

[Onur]

I picked up "A mix of 1 and 2" because the 3rd option is less than 5%.

Btw, the percentage of Balkanite admixture among us probably bigger than middle-eastern one. Ofc this is mutual, so as much as we have balkanite among us, they have turkish among them, most likely more than we have.

[Su]

This is how I see my ancestors:

Part I: A group of Central Asians came today's Turkey,
Part II: They mixed with the locals,
Part III: A new generation or folk had been created.

Since the locals were Pre-Turkic Anatolian and they were part of West Asia called today Middle East / Near East I am voting for the following options:

Anatolian Turks are Pre-Turkic Anatolian and Middle Eastern.

^I am not mentioning the minor admixture since it's changing from Turk to Turk and it doesnt make us Central Asian (since Central Asians do have apart from the Turkic admixture, they have got different admixtures such as 9% South Asian, while we got somewhat 1% South Asian on average etc. So today we do have diffences between Anatolian Turks and Central Asians even with Turkmens, we dont have identical admixtures at all!) and since I see a lot of differences between majority of Anatolian Turks and Central Asians based on culture as well as look.

Since you dont have the combination of 2 and 3, I have voted for 3) Middle Eastern.

Also the whole world knows as a Middle Eastern country.

[Pecheneg]

Well, pre-Turkic anatolians were already west asians (middle easterners) :)
2nd and 3rd options are kinda same.
i've voted for 4th option.

Btw, how can people vote for 2nd or 3rd options, since we have 7% east asian admixture and have much more central asian one. (central asian Turkmens are only 15% east asian), this is simply bullshit.

and even 40% of the present day Turkish citizens are originally from Balkans and Caucasus (descendants of Turkish immigrants from balkans and caucasus).

[Kanuni]

Since minor influences are not included i vote for Pre Turkic Anatolian.

http://spittoon.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Genes-mirror-geography-for-Europeans.jpg

Their Y-DNA distribution reflects well their autosomal.

[Pecheneg]

This thread will be troll magnet, whatever.
There is no single dna sample from Seljuks.
and also, N,C,Q chromosomes (so-called Turkic lineage) are also very minor in central asian nations like Uyghurs, Turkmens, Kyrgyz etc.
But there are many historical records about new-comer Turks and describing them like "ants". Also there are Ottoman Archival records that shows us the huge numbers of Turkoman nomads of the anatolia and i've posted it for almost billion times.
according to dna researches, central asian input in Turks is something between %14 to 30%.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11385601

The Turkic language was introduced in Anatolia at the start of this millennium, by nomadic Turkmen groups from Central Asia. Whether that cultural transition also had significant population-genetics consequences is not fully understood. Three nuclear microsatellite loci, the hypervariable region I of the mitochondrial genome, six microsatellite loci of the Y chromosome, and one Alu insertion (YAP) were amplified and typed in 118 individuals from four populations of Anatolia. For each locus, the number of chromosomes considered varied between 51-200. Genetic variation was large within samples, and much less so between them. The contribution of Central Asian genes to the current Anatolian gene pool was quantified using three different methods, considering for comparison populations of Mediterranean Europe, and Turkic-speaking populations of Central Asia. The most reliable estimates suggest roughly 30% Central Asian admixture for both mitochondrial and Y-chromosome loci. That (admittedly approximate) figure is compatible both with a substantial immigration accompanying the arrival of the Turkmen armies, and with continuous gene flow from Asia into Anatolia, at a rate of 1% for 40 generations.



According to Cengiz Cinnioğlu et al. in October of 2003, although earlier studies concluded that the Central Asian Turkic migration affected gene flow in either 10% or 30% of the population of Anatolia, the actual number is uncertain as the exact number of migrations by the Oghuz in the 11th century is not clear and the lack of viable source material impedes progress. However, with the use of the shared Y-chromosome in continuing research, more may soon be discovered regarding Turkic peoples

Cengiz Cinnioğlu, Roy King, Toomas Kivisild, Ersi Kalfoğlu, Sevil Atasoy, Gianpiero L. Cavalleri, Anita S. Lillie, Charles C. Roseman, Alice A. Lin, Kristina Prince, Peter J. Oefner, Peidong Shen, Ornella Semino, L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, and Peter A. Underhill
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/HG_2004_v114_p127-148.pdf

and according to our Greek nationalist geneticist Dienekes
"Turks are about 1/7 descended from Central Asian Turkic speakers, and 6/7 from pre-Turkic West Asians."

[Onur]

also, N,C,Q chromosomes (so-called Turkic lineage)
This is exactly the case and it`s absolutely a lie. All the admixture analyses you see around is calculated according to this, therefor the numbers you see as "7% Turkic, 80% Anatolian" doesn't represent the reality at all.

The archeologists excavated meany early Hun graves across central Asia, from Mongolia to Kazakhstan. While 6-7 out of 10 Hunnic leaders from 2nd BC to 3rd AD are either R1A or J2, how come the Turkish people of 11th century can only be considered as N,C,Q only?

This is a pure political propaganda started around 1880s in western world. Their aim is to present the Turkic lineage as minimum as possible by considering the DNA composition of few isolated tribes in Siberia with N,C,Q as "true Turkic".

[Pecheneg]

We speak an Oghuz dialect similar to Azerbaijanis of Iran and Azerbaijan as well as Turkmens of Turkmenistan and this link is quite clear from the genetic data.
Our closest relatives in central asia are Turkmens. We are both Oghuz.
Turkmen (central asia) - Turkish (anatolia) comparition
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0

Turkmens / Turks
south_asian 9.3 / 1.4
west_asian 44.9 / 43
siberian 8.2 / 4.6
african 0.2 / 0
southern 17.2 / 30.3
atlantic_baltic 13.5 / 18.3
east_asian 6.9 / 2.4

Turkmen total mongoloid 15.1%
Turkish total mongoloid 7%


But of course we are closer to west asian populations than central asians.

even if we consider the first Oghuz Turks as "full mongoloid"(in fact they were not), we have to know that they mixed with central asian caucasoid populations (sycthians, soghdians, bactrians) and later in khorasan&iran with persians and lastly with anatolians.


and result of a Turk (k12a)
[1,] "53.7% Greek_D + 46.3% Turkmens_Y" "2.9313"
[2,] "56.1% Ashkenazy_Jews + 43.9% Turkmens_Y" "3.7916"
[3,] "55.1% Ashkenazi_D + 44.9% Turkmens_Y" "4.2851"
[4,] "52.8% Sicilian_D + 47.2% Turkmens_Y" "4.8908"
[5,] "52.9% S_Italian_Sicilian_D + 47.1% Turkmens_Y" "4.9797"
[6,] "51.6% S_Italian_D + 48.4% Turkmens_Y" "5.0098"
[7,] "49% C_Italian_D + 51% Turkmens_Y" "5.4416"
[8,] "64.5% Ashkenazi_D + 35.5% Tajiks_Y" "5.4652"
[9,] "61.1% S_Italian_D + 38.9% Tajiks_Y" "5.6985"
[10,] "65.6% Ashkenazy_Jews + 34.4% Tajiks_Y" "5.7723"

[orangepulp]

Anatolian Turks are Middle Eastern people with minor Turkic input, percentage of Turkic varies depending on the region. I see Turks as Middle Easterners because our culture is closer to the people of the Levant as well as our beliefs but our genetics is closer to Caucasus and to some degree Southern Euros. But because we are Muslims, I feel that we have a better affinity with ME people and as sometimesyes said, the whole world sees Turkey as ME.

[orangepulp]

We speak an Oghuz dialect similar to Azerbaijanis of Iran and Azerbaijan as well as Turkmens of Turkmenistan and this link is quite clear from the genetic data.
Our closest relatives in central asia are Turkmens. We are both Oghuz.
Turkmen (central asia) - Turkish (anatolia) comparition
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0

Turkmens / Turks
south_asian 9.3 / 1.4
west_asian 44.9 / 43
siberian 8.2 / 4.6
african 0.2 / 0
southern 17.2 / 30.3
atlantic_baltic 13.5 / 18.3
east_asian 6.9 / 2.4

Turkmen total mongoloid 15.1%
Turkish total mongoloid 7%


But of course we are closer to west asian populations than central asians.

even if we consider the first Oghuz Turks as "full mongoloid"(in fact they were not), we have to know that they mixed with central asian caucasoid populations (sycthians, soghdians, bactrians) and later in khorasan&iran with persians and lastly with anatolians.


and result of a Turk (k12a)
[1,] "53.7% Greek_D + 46.3% Turkmens_Y" "2.9313"
[2,] "56.1% Ashkenazy_Jews + 43.9% Turkmens_Y" "3.7916"
[3,] "55.1% Ashkenazi_D + 44.9% Turkmens_Y" "4.2851"
[4,] "52.8% Sicilian_D + 47.2% Turkmens_Y" "4.8908"
[5,] "52.9% S_Italian_Sicilian_D + 47.1% Turkmens_Y" "4.9797"
[6,] "51.6% S_Italian_D + 48.4% Turkmens_Y" "5.0098"
[7,] "49% C_Italian_D + 51% Turkmens_Y" "5.4416"
[8,] "64.5% Ashkenazi_D + 35.5% Tajiks_Y" "5.4652"
[9,] "61.1% S_Italian_D + 38.9% Tajiks_Y" "5.6985"
[10,] "65.6% Ashkenazy_Jews + 34.4% Tajiks_Y" "5.7723"

You can't use one example and use it as a representation of a whole population. According to the region the percentage of Turkic varies. I met with Turks that scored 0% mongoloid. There are Turks that score higher West Asian/Caucasus than average and even higher than the Armenian average.

[Pecheneg]

Anatolian Turks are Middle Eastern people with minor Turkic input, percentage of Turkic varies depending on the region. I see Turks as Middle Easterners because our culture is closer to the people of the Levant as well as our beliefs but our genetics is closer to Caucasus and to some degree Southern Euros. But because we are Muslims, I feel that we have a better affinity with ME people and as sometimesyes said, the whole world sees Turkey as ME.
correction:
anatolian Turks are west asian people with minor "east asian" input.
("Turkic" and "east asian" are completely different things)
90% of the Turkic peoples on earth are pred. caucasoid.

and how can you know the dna results of the Seljuks for God sake?
What do you think, they were eskimos or something?

[Pecheneg]

You can't use one example and use it as a representation of a whole population. According to the region the percentage of Turkic varies. I met with Turks that scored 0% mongoloid. There are Turks that score higher West Asian/Caucasus than average and even higher than the Armenian average.
average Turk is 7% east asian, there are some Turks with 12-13% and some Turks with 2-3%. i'm talking about the average!

i understand your religious obsessions, but central asian admixture doesn't make us "infidel". I'm a muslim too, being muslim and being middle eastern are two different things and btw Seljuk Turks were much more intimate muslims than arabic racist-umayyad butchers. (see talkan and jurcan massacres in central asia)
and don't worry, nobody can say that "go back to turkmenistan bla bla bla" just because of our central asian admixture.

[Onur]

the whole world sees Turkey as ME.
This doesn't mean shit at all. The whole world considered Finns, Hungarians, Estonians as "Tatar-Mongols" for 1000s of years `till 1920s. Did it make any sense? Nope, so i don't care what they think about us either because these namings usually gets popular or unpopular due to present politics but never or rarely represents the actual truth.

The middle-east means semitic and Iranian peoples and cultures. Turks are neither semitic nor Iranic, not culturally, genetically or any other way.

I generally agree Samuel Huntington about Turks. We have our own civilization. We are neither middle-eastern nor Europeans and we are not a part of islamic world either. We are just Turks but i also call us as Eurasian people because this is the only term which can be suitable for us other than Turks.

[Hayalet]

Hard to say, but here's a study on Turks from 2012:

West Eurasian plot

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab329/786512/z1/fe174172.jpg

Central & South Asian plot

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab329/786512/z1/de1a7f5b.jpg

Global plot

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab329/786512/z1/c98bcaaf.jpg

Fst distances of Turks to West Eurasian and North African populations:


Adygei 0.004
Tuscan 0.004
Italian 0.005
French 0.006
Palestinian 0.007
Druze 0.008
Russian 0.010
Bedouin 0.011
Orcadian 0.011
Sardinian 0.013
Basque 0.014
Mozabite 0.027

[Pecheneg]

Hard to say, but here's a study on Turks from 2012:

West Eurasian plot

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab329/786512/z1/198f19b9.jpg

Central & South Asian plot

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab329/786512/z1/8181360a.jpg

Global plot

http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab329/786512/z1/dc2761f0.jpg

Fst distances of Turks to West Eurasian and North African populations:

i can't see the pics, but it seems the closest population to us are Adyghe(Circassian) people, because they have almost same amount of west asian and east asian admixture as us.

Adygei 0.004
Tuscan 0.004
Italian 0.005
French 0.006
Palestinian 0.007
Druze 0.008
Russian 0.010
Bedouin 0.011
Orcadian 0.011
Sardinian 0.013
Basque 0.014
Mozabite 0.027

[Queen B]

My answer is not listed.

[Loki]

This is how I see my ancestors:

Part I: A group of Central Asians came today's Turkey,
Part II: They mixed with the locals,
Part III: A new generation or folk had been created.

Since the locals were Pre-Turkic Anatolian and they were part of West Asia called today Middle East / Near East I am voting for the following options:

Anatolian Turks are Pre-Turkic Anatolian and Middle Eastern.

^I am not mentioning the minor admixture since it's changing from Turk to Turk and it doesnt make us Central Asian (since Central Asians do have apart from the Turkic admixture, they have got different admixtures such as 9% South Asian, while we got somewhat 1% South Asian on average etc. So today we do have diffences between Anatolian Turks and Central Asians even with Turkmens, we dont have identical admixtures at all!) and since I see a lot of differences between majority of Anatolian Turks and Central Asians based on culture as well as look.

Since you dont have the combination of 2 and 3, I have voted for 3) Middle Eastern.

Also the whole world knows as a Middle Eastern country.

I disagree. Middle Eastern is very different from Anatolian.

[Onur]

My answer is not listed.
What was it? Aliens from Mars? :)

[Loki]

This doesn't mean shit at all. The whole world considered Finns, Hungarians, Estonians as "Tatar-Mongols" for 1000s of years `till 1920s. Did it make any sense? Nope, so i don't care what they think about us either because these namings usually gets popular or unpopular due to present politics but never or rarely represents the actual truth.

The middle-east means semitic and Iranian peoples and cultures. Turks are neither semitic nor Iranic, not culturally, genetically or any other way.

I generally agree Samuel Huntington about Turks. We have our own civilization. We are neither middle-eastern nor Europeans and we are not a part of islamic world either. We are just Turks but i also call us as Eurasian people because this is the only term which can be suitable for us other than Turks.

I agree with you Onur!

[Midori]

What was it? Aliens from Mars? :)

Sandniggers probably

[Queen B]

What was it? Aliens from Mars? :)
No. Balkan/mixed is not mentioned

[Linet]

So Turks arent Turks :shocked:? You call yourself Turks when its just the 10% of your dna :blink::confused2:?
...Onur baby...you still havent told me...you are Greek and also from my tribe? A Macedonian? :eyes

[Sikeliot]

Pre-Turkic Anatolian in large part.

[Pecheneg]

So Turks arent Turks :shocked:? You call yourself Turks when its just the 10% of your dna :blink::confused2:?
...Onur baby...you still havent told me...you are Greek and also from my tribe? A Macedonian? :eyes

go think about your albanian-arnavite, north east anatolian, balkan slavic, central anatolian - karamanid ancestry

[Linet]

Pre-Turkic Anatolian in large part.

That sounds like Greeks mostly :1099:...also the Kurds were there :eusa_eh:....mmmm ...Ooh so Turks are my lost baby brothers? :baby2000:

[Loki]

i can't see the pics, but it seems the closest population to us are Adyghe(Circassian) people, because they have almost same amount of west asian and east asian admixture as us.

Adygei 0.004
Tuscan 0.004
Italian 0.005
French 0.006
Palestinian 0.007
Druze 0.008
Russian 0.010
Bedouin 0.011
Orcadian 0.011
Sardinian 0.013
Basque 0.014
Mozabite 0.027

West Asian =/= Middle Eastern

[Sikeliot]

That sounds like Greeks mostly :1099:...also the Kurds were there :eusa_eh:....mmmm ...Ooh so Turks are my lost baby brothers? :baby2000:

Nope. Greeks also have some Slavic ancestry or at least, pre-Slavic Eastern European.

[Loki]

That sounds like Greeks mostly :1099:...also the Kurds were there :eusa_eh:....mmmm ...Ooh so Turks are my lost baby brothers? :baby2000:

No it is not Linet. Greek influence was mostly in western anatolia. ancient cultures like hittites and galatians were in central anatolia

[Linet]

go think about your albanian, north east anatolian, balkan slavic ancestry.

Oooooooh...Pech!!!!
How i missed that sweet talk of yours :embarrassed....oooh...you are so flattering...:eyes
...yeaaaah...i ll think of it...now lets talk about you guys...:wink:

[Queen B]

No it is not Linet. Greek influence was mostly in western anatolia. ancient cultures like hittites and galatians were in central anatolia
Isn't the question about Anatolia? Where it says Western or Central and I didn't see it?

[Linet]

No it is not Linet. Greek influence was mostly in western anatolia. ancient cultures like hittites and galatians were in central anatolia

Aha! Here you are!!! :angel
Give my powerz back...:icon_wink:
...Hittites yes i understand...Galatians...no...:icon_no:

[Loki]

No. Balkan/mixed is not mentioned

Turks are not Balkan. They are predominantly of pre-Turkic stock in genetic substratum (Greek in West, Hittite in centre, Armenian in East and and many many other smaller tribes in antiquity.

We are NOT talking about Kurds here, they are a separate ethnicity altogether.

[Loki]

Aha! Here you are!!! :angel
Give my powerz back...:icon_wink:
...Hittites yes i understand...Galatians...no...:icon_no:

Google Galatians.

[Pecheneg]

Oooooooh...Pech!!!!
How i missed that sweet talk of yours :embarrassed....oooh...you are so flattering...:eyes
...yeaaaah...i ll think of it...now lets talk about you guys...:wink:
i don't care these pseudo-scientific researches (all of them trying to minimize Turkic impact), since there were at least 3,5 million Turkoman nomads in anatolia (16th-17th centuries) recorded by Ottomans, and Turkic migration from central asia is very well documented by armenians, byzantines, iranians and arabic chronicles.
and linet, don't be so comfortable, we ruled you for near half a milennia, so...

[Queen B]

Turks are not Balkan. They are predominantly of pre-Turkic stock in genetic substratum (Greek in West, Hittite in centre, Armenian in East and and many many other smaller tribes in antiquity.

I didn't say they are.Unlike Turks, I am not obsessed, neither I care to say ''oh you are a [insert ethnicity that they are involved with] in denial] I say that they have a balkan mix.


We are NOT talking about Kurds here, they are a separate ethnicity altogether.
I m very much aware of it (unlike Turkish state:eyes:eyes)

[Loki]

Isn't the question about Anatolia? Where it says Western or Central and I didn't see it?

Yes. What don't you understand about Anatolia and its history?

[Queen B]

and linet, don't be so comfortable, we ruled you for near half a milennia, so...
Yes, you did, that's why you have such a Greek genetic influence.
Don't forget that Christiand + Muslim -> Muslim :cool:

[Loki]

I didn't say they are.Unlike Turks, I am not obsessed, neither I care to say ''oh you are a [insert ethnicity that they are involved with] in denial] I say that they have a balkan mix.

I m very much aware of it (unlike Turkish state:eyes:eyes)

Oh I understand - Balkan as in mixed. Yes, I agree :)

[Linet]

They have strong Balkanic element because of the jenicaries....thousant of kids from all the Balkan nations were stolen to become the elit army of the Turks...:fencing:

[Pecheneg]

Yes, you did, that's why you have such a Greek genetic influence.
Don't forget that Christiand + Muslim -> Muslim :cool:
and don't forget the christianized Pechenegs, Kumans, Seljuks (aka Turkopoles) and christian anatolians like Pontus and Karamanid people.

[Onur]

Ooh so Turks are my lost baby brothers? :baby2000:
I am sorry Linet, you have wait for your prophecies to become real, so your mount Athos pedophiles fulfills their centuries old dream to baptize us all but watch out because we might circumcise your boys before that and call them to speak Turkish again as their grandparents was :D

[Queen B]

Yes. What don't you understand about Anatolia and its history?
What you didn't understand about my comment that I quote on that? (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=948434&postcount=28)

[Pecheneg]

They have strong Balkanic element because of the jenicaries....thousant of kids from all the Balkan nations were stolen to become the elit army of the Turks...:fencing:
Your whole (byzantine) army were mercenaries and most of them were Turks, others were normano-italians and elite infantry= varangian rus.
greeks were local militias in byzantine empire, nothing else. go read some history about byzantine military before you talk about Janissaries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Ottoman_Empire#Ottoman_Army_Streng th.2C_1299.E2.80.931826
check the janissary numbers caryfully!
their genetic impact to Turkish population is perhaps 0,0000001%.

year - janissary numbers
1389 - 500
1402 - 1,000
1453 - 6,000
1528 - 12,000
1574 - 13,599
and after this year, Turks also became janissaries.

[Linet]

:hug2:
i don't care these pseudo-scientific researches (all of them trying to minimize Turkic impact), since there were at least 3,5 million Turkoman nomads in anatolia (16th-17th centuries) recorded by Ottomans, and Turkic migration from central asia is very well documented by armenians, byzantines, iranians and arabic chronicles.
and linet, don't be so comfortable, we ruled you for near half a milennia, so...

Ooooh i am comfortable....i am from a place that no conqueror ever stepped...not even Turks...deep Lacedeamonia,the abaton of Sparta...you just dont go there...:eyes
...So since when i go around Greece and their faces look like mine...i suppose they have my blood :hug2: and not yours or anybody elses :stop...

Ps...oh you ruled over us?Come again baby...lets see what you can do :wink :rolleyes:

[Queen B]

and don't forget the christianized Pechenegs, Kumans, Seljuks (aka Turkopoles) and christian anatolians like Pontus and Karamanid people.
Don't forget that Pontians were Greeks, as well as Karamanlides

How many Gaugaz,Kumans Pecheng and Seljucks there are in Greece? :lol:

[Linet]

I am sorry Linet, you have wait for your prophecies to become real, so your mount Athos pedophiles fulfills their centuries old dream to baptize us all but watch out because we might circumcise your boys before that and call them to speak Turkish again as their grandparents was :D

Oh we will...dont worry...i love all the three of you :eyes...i ll make sure to save you when our army takes over... :wink
What do you want your new name to be?...i think i would go with Artafernis, do you like it? Let me name you...please please :eyes

[Linet]

Your whole (byzantine) army were mercenaries and most of them were Turks, others were normano-italians and elite infantry= varangian rus.
greeks were local militias in byzantine empire, nothing else. go read some history about byzantine military before you talk about Janissaries.

Who talks about Byzantium? Thats a different story...mercenaries come and go...
But your jenicaries...were stolen kids...they grew up with the idea that sultan is their father and turkey their mother and you raised them as muslims...those kids married with Turkish women...not women of their lands...so you got their genes...and they were from all over the Balkans...;)

[Pecheneg]

Don't forget that Pontians were Greeks, as well as Karamanlides

How many Gaugaz,Kumans Pecheng and Seljucks there are in Greece? :lol:
Well we can't know, since they were christianized and mixed with Greek population.
and pontians were not greeks, they were closer to caucasians and black sea people genetically before their migration to greece, as well as karamanlides.



Who talks about Byzantium? Thats a different story...mercenaries come and go...
But your jenicaries...were stolen kids...they grew up with the idea that sultan is their father and turkey their mother and you raised them as muslims...those kids married with Turkish women...not women of their lands...so you got their genes...and they were from all over the Balkans...;)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=948470&postcount=43

[Panopticon]

Pre-Turkic Anatolian for the most part. Considerable yet minor input from: Central Asia, Caucasian, Balkan, Indo-Iranian and Middle Eastern.

[Linet]

Well we can't know, since they were christianized and mixed with Greek population.
and pontians are not greeks, they are closer to caucasians and black sea people genetically, as well as karamanlides.

...you love to believe that....dont you?
Thats why to killed them? Thats why they fled to Greece?Thats why they still speak an ancient greek dialect? mmmm? Who Hellenised them if not the Greeks? And if Greeks Hellenised them...then Greeks were there...and so many as to hellenise an entire population...:love0031:

[Linet]

mmmm more than 50.000 men having little kids there...mmm...:rolleyes:

[Queen B]

Well we can't know, since they were christianized and mixed with Greek population.
and pontians were not greeks, they were closer to caucasians and black sea people genetically before their migration to greece, as well as karamanlides.

Pontians are not Greeks? :rotfl:
Please, don't start the same shit with Onur. go to the relevant topic, and read the whole conversation again, and please, if you can, support his claim and reply to his theories and my answers on those.

[Pecheneg]

...you love to believe that....dont you?
Thats why to killed them? Thats why they fled to Greece?Thats why they still speak an ancient greek dialect? mmmm? Who Hellenised them if not the Greeks? And if Greeks Hellenised them...then Greeks were there...and so many as to hellenise an entire population...:love0031:
this is a double-standart, when you were talking about us its ok, but when it comes to your ethnicity...
there are millions of greek citizens with balkan-slavic, arnavite-albanian, pontic-anatolian etc ancestries.

[Linet]

...well my beloved Onur give the answer...Greeks we are arrogant...we dont mix...

[Queen B]

this is a double-standart, when you were talking about its ok, but when it comes to your ethnicity...
there are millions of greek citizens with balkan-slavic, arnavite-albanian, pontic-anatolian etc ancestries.
This is what you actually do here.

You are all spamming every Greek-related thread that Greeks are [anything] in denial, yet, none of you admit your Balkan or any other ''enemy'' mix.

Personaly, although I believe what I stated,I don't care of what your mix is . Your mentality is Turkish, and that's the problem, not your ancestry :rotfl:

[Loki]

They have strong Balkanic element because of the jenicaries....thousant of kids from all the Balkan nations were stolen to become the elit army of the Turks...:fencing:

So the janissaries have been more important to Anatolian Balkan genetics than Ancient Anatolians ... you don't know what you're talking about little girl, stop wasting my time.

I'm outta this thread.

[Pecheneg]

pfff... this is a new trend to minimize Turkic impact to anatolia, because of butthurt.
i don't give a shit to these researches since Ottomans documented 3,5 million Turkoman nomads in 16th and 17th centuries and byzantine-armenian-persian-arabic chronicles documented huge Oghuz migration to anatolia. You people will never understand that Seljuk Turks were pred. caucasoid. Just like the 90% of the Turkic peoples on earth.
now keep trying to take your revenges via keyboards, off topic for now.

[Loki]

...well my beloved Onur give the answer...Greeks we are arrogant...we dont mix...

Greeks are very mixed, we all know that. Athens was half Albanian even 100 years ago. Also loads of Slavs in the north.

[Queen B]

Greeks are very mixed, we all know that. Athens was half Albanian even 100 years ago. Also loads of Slavs in the north.
No, only Turks, Albanians and Slavs ''know'' that.

Athens was half Albanian because Athens was a fucking village of 3.000 people , and now is a city of 5 millions.

Its something called Urbanization, in case you haven't heard of it.

[Linet]

So the janissaries have been more important to Anatolian Balkan genetics than Ancient Anatolians ... you don't know what you're talking about little girl, stop wasting my time.

I'm outta this thread.

I didnt reply to you...:blink:
...and they had big impact...nobody said they had bigger than someone else...

[Linet]

You are the ones saying you are only 10% Turks...so who is butthurt?
You are mixed anyway...so whats the problem?

My nation never mixed...dont judge by your standars....
We are a nation that doesnt like to mix, why cant that get into your head?
If there were Albanians 100 years ago then where are their grandchildren to say that? I ve never met anyone not Greek till now...

[Queen B]

If there were Albanians 100 years ago then were are their grandchildren to say that? I ve never met anyone not Greek till now...
People don't read more to realize the nature of life of how Greece evolve.
They think that since athens is 5 millions, then half of them were albos, because half of them were 100 or 200 years ago, when in fact, athens had 3.000 people, and Athens has been through a huge city-polarization, and nowdays has almost half of the Greek population there. (Including me)

Also, people don't know how stuck-to-their-kind are Greeks.Any kind of . Even Cypriots with Cypriots, Cretans with Cretans, or Pontics with Pontics.
Some people with strong regional culture, prefer even to stuck on their own.

They think that its like UK when every nigger marries a british girl, and they call themselves British after a couple of generations, when in fact, is not.

[Linet]

Yes i agree, i noticed that too in general in this forum...and for first time i understood how different can people be...how different we are from everyone...i was really shocked by the realisation...
...i started to believe that is really something that we grow up with so we consider it as fact, like a law of nature when they dotn even know it...so when they see it, they cant comprehend it...i dont think is easy or even possible for someone with a different philosophy to get it.

[Pecheneg]

You are the ones saying you are only 10% Turks...so who is butthurt?
You are mixed anyway...so whats the problem?

My nation never mixed...dont judge by your standars....
We are a nation that doesnt like to mix, why cant that get into your head?
If there were Albanians 100 years ago then where are their grandchildren to say that? I ve never met anyone not Greek till now...

that's why it's impossible to have an objective discussion with you. Because you are blind greek racist. I know my ancestors associated and mixed with many people, but you... You were meditterenean people since the ancient times, the crossroad of the world, do you really believe that your nation never mixed... well you have at least 10 notable different Y-chromosomes in your dna, which means at least 10 different lineages. which one of them is true greek chromosome, now tell me please? People consider only N,C,Q genes as "Turkic", it's funny because these genes are around 10-13% among Uyghur-Kyrgyz-Turkmen populations and less in western Turkic populations like karachay, qashqai, azeri, turk, gagauz, balkar etc. now tell me which one of these chromosomes is true-greek lineage? :) e3b?? j2? r1b? which one?
http://i49.tinypic.com/2nlyc1h.jpg

[Padre Organtino]

...you love to believe that....dont you?
Thats why to killed them? Thats why they fled to Greece?Thats why they still speak an ancient greek dialect? mmmm? Who Hellenised them if not the Greeks? And if Greeks Hellenised them...then Greeks were there...and so many as to hellenise an entire population...:love0031:

One does not need a large migration to make the others change the language. In fact this event was pretty typical throughout human history and is called elite dominance. Armenians speak an IE langauge related to Balkan ones but they are mix of Anatolians and Mesopotamians genetically (first part dominating of course) and very closely related to Semitic speaking Assyrians. Bulgarians speak Slavic but are much closer to Albanians than to Russians genetically. I can give you many more examples like this one.

[Linet]

we were many tribes to start with....
Dorians, Aeolians, Pelasgians, Ionians. Heperotans, Arcadians, Minoans....count....
Those tribes were Greek because sometime in history, maybe on 6.000-7.000 BC they decided they are close, then they lived together and they made a common civilisation...
Since those people are only ancestors of my nation and nobody else can claim them, i call them Greeks, because we are the mix of their blood, nobody elses blood and also nobody else can claim their blood...
...Greeks were like me... all of them...do you see Dand as different? Do you see her as eager to be with a non Greek? Ok, accuse us for arrogance and pride...but you cant accuse us for mixing...we grow up and we know that mixing is something bad to the core...its a belief as strong to us and as true as the air we breath...and that idea comes from our ancestors, thousants of years now...our ethics and mentality...we didnt invent it now...

[Queen B]

that's why it's impossible to have an objective discussion with you. Because you are blind greek racist. I know my ancestors associated and mixed with many people, but you... You were meditterenean people since the ancient times, the crossroad of the world, do you really believe that your nation never mixed...

Linet's ancestors, since is from Sparta, trully didn't, they are purer than the most of the rest of Greeks..
There are some places in Greece like Mani or Sparta, that was out of mixing, and very stuck-to-their-heads, up until now.

A similar act exists between Cretans, that only hang out with Cretans (they have like ''ghettos in university'', as if they are not other people there) , and most of times only marry cretans, though in not such strong degree.

Personally, there is mixing to my nation, like in every single nation in the world, but certainly not the rate that our complexed neigbors think.
I know its hard for nations that they are not aware of the Greek mentality to understand this.

[Linet]

One does not need a large migration to make the others change the language. In fact this event was pretty typical throughout human history and is called elite dominance. Armenians speak an IE langauge related to Balkan ones but they are mix of Anatolians and Mesopotamians genetically (first part dominating of course) and very closely related to Semitic speaking Assyrians. Bulgarians speak Slavic but are much closer to Albanians than to Russians genetically. I can give you many more examples like this one.

Yes i agree, thats my point...Greeks wee there in great numbers...their cities were numerous and heavily inhabited... :)
...and the Pontic Greeks speak better Greek than we do, because our language has become the common one, the koine, more simple for all...but they keep the ancient dialect.

[Queen B]

Ok, accuse us for arrogance and pride...but you cant accuse us for mixing...we grow up and we know that mixing is something bad to the core...its a belief as strong to us and as true as the air we breath...and that idea comes from our ancestors, thousants of years now...our ethics and mentality...we didnt invent it now...
that's actually very true. 50 years ago would be a scandal for a Greek to marry a foreigner, they would be fingerpointed and highly critisized. 90% of those (rare) cases was navy soldiers.
I have 1 friend that is mixed and I know a couple of more cases, and all of them were navy soldiers :lol:

[Padre Organtino]

Yes i agree, thats my point...Greeks wee there in great numbers...their cities were numerous and heavily inhabited... :)
...and the Pontic Greeks speak better Greek than we do, because our language has become the common one, the koine, more simple for all...but they keep the ancient dialect.

The problem with this statement is that Pontic Greeks don't look much similar to Ionian ones to me. They have a rather generic Anatolian look about them. Now the language thing is most probably true but then again Indians have a very well preserved Indo-European language that was used in reconstructing proto-IE language source but they are in no way European.

[Linet]

The problem with this statement is that Pontic Greeks don't look much similar to Ionian ones to me. They have a rather generic Anatolian look about them. Now the language thing is most probably true but then again Indians have a very well preserved Indo-European language that was used in reconstructing proto-IE language source but they are in no way European.

Do you know many Pontic Greeks?
The only thing we have to laugh at them is that they are big headed both litteraly as well as in stubborness...

[Willem]

A mix of 1, 2 and 3.

Turks who invaded Anatolia first mixed in Iran with locals before entering Turkey.

[Linet]

Pech, relax...:eyes
...i told you, no matter what will happen i ll save you in case we beat you up...:cool:
...But you know, the prophecy says that at first you ll be winning, so you have to save me and Dand first...i hope we have a deal :D

[Padre Organtino]

Do you know many Pontic Greeks?
The only thing we have to laugh at them is that they are big headed both litteraly as well as in stubborness...

There are some living in Georgia and I've been to Greece. So after observing the two I have to say they don't look exactly the same.

[Pecheneg]

A mix of 1, 2 and 3.

Turks who invaded Anatolia first mixed in Iran with locals before entering Turkey.

and even before that, they mixed with local populations of transoxania, bactria, khorasan and scythian remnants of steppes.
even the shamanist Oghuz yabgu state was not homogenous, there were many iranian-soghdian local populations, traders, various muslim and slavic populations in this state.

http://i49.tinypic.com/fmsa50.png

[Linet]

Pech, why dont you reply to me? :pout:
..you ll let us get slaughtered? :cry

...Dont tell me, you ll get a knife and come here first? :blink: :1099:

[Pecheneg]

Pech, why dont you reply to me? :pout:
..you ll let us get slaughtered? :cry

...Dont tell me, you ll get a knife and come here first? :blink: :1099:
as i said before, i don't believe in prophecies of pedophile priests, do you really want a war with Turks? seriously?

[Linet]

..oh come on...:puppy_dp:
let me tease you abit...dont ruin it... :cry2
...Well, i dont want any war...and i am not that religious but some things that this prophecy says have become true and the events go the way it has predicted :icon_ask:. I have no idea if it was just coincidense but it make me think that maybe there is something there. Of course i admit that to get back Smirni or Constantinoupolis would be welcomed by me even if that costed me my life. Not as extra land, thats not the case, we really see it as something very beloved that has been stolen, like we miss a hand, part of our flesh.
...Anyway, you see how good i am :angel? Even if you say all those nasty things for us, i would still care to rescue you :wink :ninja

[Pecheneg]

..oh come on...:puppy_dp:
let me tease you abit...dont ruin it... :cry2
...Well, i dont want any war...and i am not that religious but some things that this prophecy says have become true and the events go the way it has predicted :icon_ask:. I have no idea if it was just coincidense but it make me think that maybe there is something there. Of course i admit that to get back Smirni or Constantinoupolis would be welcomed by me even if that costed me my life. Not as extra land, thats not the case, we really see it as something very beloved that has been stolen, like we miss a hand, part of our flesh.
...Anyway, you see how good i am :angel? Even if you say all those nasty things for us, i would still care to rescue you :wink :ninja
You can't take back these cities, even if we let you.

[Linet]

You can't take back these cities, even if we let you.

:blink: :blink: eh?

[Linet]

OOOOk boys, since you and Onur will let me get barbequed :flamed: :angry:, i will only save Siberian :stricken:, at least she is good and i am sure she would do the same...:fhmm:
...you will regret that attitude...:shakefist

[Loki]

You are the ones saying you are only 10% Turks...so who is butthurt?


My nation never mixed...dont judge by your standars....
We are a nation that doesnt like to mix, why cant that get into your head?
If there were Albanians 100 years ago then where are their grandchildren to say that? I ve never met anyone not Greek till now...



You are mixed anyway...so whats the problem?


I have a small amount of admixture, and that does not prohibit me from seeing and speaking the truth, does it? I have been totally open about my ancestry and posted my 23andme: 98% european, 1% asian and 1% african.

Linet you are simply trolling, or at best very unintelligent, brainwashed and uneducated.

Not only 10% of Turks, but the average Turk has 7% of Mongoloid admixture.

Greece has had Albanian, Slavic and other admixtures ... and considerably. dandelion I reject your rose-tinted view of your ethnos.

Outta this thread, I can't spend any more time on this. Troll me now if you wish.

[Onur]

Greece has had Albanian, Slavic and other admixtures ... and considerably. dandelion I reject your rose-tinted view of your ethnos.

Outta this thread, I can't spend any more time on this. Troll me now if you wish.
Loki, i would easily expose their fake neo-hellenic ethnos with credible sources and nullify all their "purity" claims but i am not doing it just because i know that as soon as i create a thread for it, Greek users and their backups would troll everything asap, reaching 50th page in the thread in less than an hour, rendering it useless.

[Siginulfo]

Modern day Turks are mostly pre-Altaians Anatolians/Middle Easterners.

Here there are the Y-DNA haplogroups of Turkey:


J2=24% - J2 (M172) Typical of populations of the Near East, Southeast Europe, Southwest Asia and the Caucasus, with a moderate distribution through much of Central Asia, South Asia, and North Africa
R1b=14.7% -Typical of Western Europeans and Eurasian People [14]
G=10.9% - Typical of people from the Caucasus and to a lesser extent the Middle East.
E1b1b1=10.7% - Typical of people from the Mediterranean
J1=9% - Typical amongst people from the Arabian Peninsula and Dagestan (ranging from 3% from Turks around Konya to 12% in Kurds).
R1a=6.9% - Typical of Central Asian, Caucasus, Eastern Europeans and Indo-Aryan people.
I=5.3% - Typical of Central Europeans, Western Caucasian and Balkan populations.
K=4.5% - Typical of Asian populations and Caucasian populations.
L=4.2% - Typical of Indian Subcontinent and Khorasan populations.
N=3.8% - Typical of Uralic, Siberian and Altaic populations.
T=2.5% - Typical of Mediterranean, Northeast African and South Asian populations
Q=1.9% - Typical of Northern Altaic populations.


You can see that the haplogroups N and Q, associated with Altaians, possess a very low frequency.

[Queen B]

Greece has had Albanian, Slavic and other admixtures ... and considerably. dandelion I reject your rose-tinted view of your ethnos.

Αnd what makes you think I care if you accept or reject me views?

I
Linet you are simply trolling, or at best very unintelligent, brainwashed and uneducated.

But I care that you are insulting towards someone that doesn't share your views or Turkish views. There is something called debate and this can take place when you use arguments, not insults.

[Queen B]

Loki, i would easily expose their fake neo-hellenic ethnos with credible sources and nullify all their "purity" claims but i am not doing it just because i know that as soon as i create a thread for it, Greek users and their backups would troll everything asap, reaching 50th page in the thread in less than an hour.
Says someone that every single post of his is about Greeks.

:rotfl:

[Linet]

I am not trolling, its my opinion...:icon_ask:
I can have it, i believe.. :)
...Also i know my nation better than anyone, we are different than all the others on the point of view on this matter so you dont understand us...thats all...you try to pur us in your logic when we have our own...

PS. I said that they(the whole population) are only 10% Turks (ancestry), read please before you put words in my mouth. I said exactly what you said but you were too eager to correct me...
It feels so nice people not to care read what you said, to understand something irrelevant, to repeat your own words and also call you stupid for saying what they say...seems legit...:thumbs:

At least even if i am brainwashed and uneducated, i reply to the correct post and i know what i reply to... :wink

[Pecheneg]

You can see that the haplogroups N and Q, associated with Altaians, possess a very low frequency.
and do you know the percentages of the N & Q in central asian Turkic populations? :rolleyes:
Seljuk Turks moved from Khorasan, not directly from siberia.
These N,C,Q genes are predominant in only some isolated tribes of siberia, not in central asia.
Even there were Hunnic leaders with J2 and R1a.


The archeologists excavated meany early Hun graves across central Asia, from Mongolia to Kazakhstan. While 6-7 out of 10 Hunnic leaders from 2nd BC to 3rd AD are either R1A or J2.

[Queen B]

I am not trolling, its my opinion...:icon_ask:
I can have it, i believe.. :)
...Also i know my nation better than anyone, we are different than all the others on the point of view on this matter so you dont understand us...thats all...you try to pur us in your logic when we have our own...


How dare you Linet to say that?
Are you in living in Greece? Are you Greek?
Turks, or S.Afrikans or others know better how Greeks thing and act. :eek:

[Siginulfo]

Haplogroup Q

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kNtxjHytce0/TGrQ-cZUprI/AAAAAAAAAK4/kWVHcBmULMM/s1600/haplogroup+Q.png


4% Southern Altaians
32% Northern Altaians
16% Tuvans


Haplogroup N

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG/800px-Haplogrupo_N_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG


90% Yakuts

[Linet]

How dare you Linet to say that?
Are you in living in Greece? Are you Greek?
Turks, or S.Afrikans or others know better how Greeks thing and act. :eek:

Oh come on...i wont do it again....:cry2
...i am sorry ok?
...Is just that i know my ancestors some generations now and it happens that they are from inner Sparta before Turks to get to Minor Asia...please forgive me... :cry:

[Arcaius]

I have a small amount of admixture, and that does not prohibit me from seeing and speaking the truth, does it? I have been totally open about my ancestry and posted my 23andme: 98% european, 1% asian and 1% african.

Linet you are simply trolling, or at best very unintelligent, brainwashed and uneducated.

Not only 10% of Turks, but the average Turk has 7% of Mongoloid admixture.

Greece has had Albanian, Slavic and other admixtures ... and considerably. dandelion I reject your rose-tinted view of your ethnos.

Outta this thread, I can't spend any more time on this. Troll me now if you wish.

i'm just bystander in this thread,trying to see what's all the ruckus about :D but

Loki you are really talking about different things... she is saying one thing and you are saying another... and actually in the end you both agree on the same thing ... and that's on what Linet said

if someone else was insulting a member like that...you would have get him banned wouldn't you? so why are you doing it :icon_ask:

[Queen B]

i'm just bystander in this thread,trying to see what's all the ruckus about :D but

Loki you are really talking about different things... she is saying one thing and you are saying another... and actually in the end you both agree on the same thing ... and that's on what Linet said

Yet, while 2 people say the same thing the one is unintelligent :icon_ask:

[Pecheneg]

Haplogroup Q


4% Southern Altaians
32% Northern Altaians
16% Tuvans


Haplogroup N


90% Yakuts

and none of them are central asians.
yakut
http://i47.tinypic.com/29wjqe1.jpg,
altai
http://i47.tinypic.com/i2m74j.png
tuva
http://i45.tinypic.com/jfgtg8.jpg
and central asia
http://i49.tinypic.com/20usxop.jpg

the central asian Kazakhs have large amount of Y-chromosome "C", the mongolian haplogroup, because there were many Turkicized Mongol tribes among Kazakhs such as naiman (means eight in mongolian), jalair etc.

and this is Khorasan, where the Seljuk Turks came from.
http://i45.tinypic.com/zphtz.jpg

[Linet]

Says someone that every single post of his is about Greeks.

:rotfl:

Dand, how dare you :mad:?
Onur loves me :fplug:, thats why he talks about the Greeks all the time...:blah:
....Dont you love his imagination :flypig:? He create worlds and alter realities in order to support his views :fhhorse:...thats how he got me, his imagination won over me :love0033:



Loki, i would easily expose their fake neo-hellenic ethnos with credible sources and nullify all their "purity" claims but i am not doing it just because i know that as soon as i create a thread for it, Greek users and their backups would troll everything asap, reaching 50th page in the thread in less than an hour, rendering it useless.

Onur my love please do, expose us...
You know how much i love it when you talk about things you have no clue...:eyes

[StonyArabia]

Pre-Turkic Anatolian in large part, with some Turkic blood.

[Dacul]

Well tables are saying they have plenty of middle-eastern admixture.That being most common.
But how they look shows they are very closed to europeans.
Not sure if they look closer to georgians,armenians or romanians or other europeans.But they do not look middle easterners at all.
However,I am not so sure about their middle eastern admixture,since in that thread with turk actors they look very europeans.I am thinking that is more like 50% european admixture (baltic,med,north-western) about 30-40% middle eastern admixture and about 10% altaian+other real asian admixture.
Since middle eastern admixture is not in fact asian admixture,but caucasian admixture so is fully european.
Georgians have plenty of middle eastern admixture,however they inhabit that caucasian area from thousands of years.
For me turks are fully europeans.
And members of our forum from Turkey got some autosomal results?

[Pecheneg]

And members of our forum from Turkey got some autosomal results?
SometimesYes, Ashina/Türkü and Orangepulp, you can ask them.

[Su]

Anatolian Turks are Middle Eastern people with minor Turkic input, percentage of Turkic varies depending on the region. I see Turks as Middle Easterners because our culture is closer to the people of the Levant as well as our beliefs but our genetics is closer to Caucasus and to some degree Southern Euros. But because we are Muslims, I feel that we have a better affinity with ME people and as sometimesyes said, the whole world sees Turkey as ME.

Thank you, this is how I see this case and that's why I voted also Middle East.

[Su]

Sandniggers probably

I thought sandniggers means Middle Easterners ?

[Su]

Well tables are saying they have plenty of middle-eastern admixture.That being most common.
But how they look shows they are very closed to europeans.
Not sure if they look closer to georgians,armenians or romanians or other europeans.But they do not look middle easterners at all.
However,I am not so sure about their middle eastern admixture,since in that thread with turk actors they look very europeans.I am thinking that is more like 50% european admixture (baltic,med,north-western) about 30-40% middle eastern admixture and about 10% altaian+other real asian admixture.
Since middle eastern admixture is not in fact asian admixture,but caucasian admixture so is fully european.
Georgians have plenty of middle eastern admixture,however they inhabit that caucasian area from thousands of years.
For me turks are fully europeans.
And members of our forum from Turkey got some autosomal results?

From 23andme:


http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/global_3.png


My mtDNA:

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/maternal_haplogroup.png

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/ancestry_painting.png

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/ancestor.png

Global Similarity:

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/globalsimilarity.jpg

From McDonald:
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/Ms_Myhumps_Full_20111015075355BGA2.png

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/Ms_Myhumps_Full_20111015075355BGA1.png

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/Ms_Myhumps_Full_2011101507BGA4-Copy.png

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/Ms_Myhumps_Full_2011101507BGA3-Copy.png

Also the comment:


Most likely fit is 11.0% (+- 4.1%) Mideast (various subcontinents)

and 78.4% (+- 6.9%) Mideast (all Turkish)

which is 89.4% total Mideast

and 10.6% (+- 2.8%) Europe (all Northeast Europe)



The following are possible population sets and their fractions,

most likely at the top

Moroccan= 0.085 Turkish= 0.825 Chuvash= 0.091

Mozabite= 0.063 Turkish= 0.867 Chuvash= 0.070

Egyptian= 0.121 Turkish= 0.759 Chuvash= 0.120

Bedouin= 0.172 Turkish= 0.684 Chuvash= 0.144



and as seen on the chromosomes (yellow) there is about 2% East Asian

which come out of the Chuvash percentage.

And some more:


-- 'bat.par' --

61.08% Anatolia
27.75% Balkans
11.17% Turkic



-- 'euro7.par' (Europe-Caucasus-Anatolia) --

33.81% Southeastern
26.39% Caucasus
14.89% Southwestern
9.99% Northeastern
8.95% Far_Asian
3.98% Northwestern
1.98% African



-- 'weac.par' (West & East Euroasian and some African) --

53.57% Near-East
34.97% Atlantic-Baltic
10.35% Far-East
1.11% Africa


Caucasus:43.3
Gedrosia: 12.3
Southwest_Asian:11.1
Atlantic_Med:10
North_European:8.9
Siberia: 4.9
Northwest_African: 4.4
Southeast_Asian: 1.4
East_Asian:3.1
East_African:0.4
South_Asia:0.2
Sub_Saharan:0

And DNA Tribes:

http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s486/lipsABF/Genetics/7continental_zones.jpg
http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s486/lipsABF/Genetics/21_world_regions.jpg

[Su]

Well tables are saying they have plenty of middle-eastern admixture.That being most common.
But how they look shows they are very closed to europeans.
Not sure if they look closer to georgians,armenians or romanians or other europeans.But they do not look middle easterners at all.

You better check crowd pictures:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51487

You got here also some crowd pictures:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51481


Our look is changing from region to region in fact from city to city is more specific. For example Central Anatolia is usually dark ; Kayseri is a Central Anatolian city and majority of people look Middle Eastern, but Konya is also a Central Anatolian city and I can't claim the same and Ankara is another Central Anatolian city and it's mixed etc.

[Pecheneg]

I thought sandniggers means Middle Easterners ?
I'm proud to be sandnigger

[Loki]

I'm proud to be sandnigger

you are maybe, but sometimes yes is not (i think), and orangepulp most certainly anatolian. it beggars belief that these two ladies think that they are middle eastern ... maybe they should read up why the hittites were not middle easterners, and learn a bit about the region's history

good night all

[Loki]

You better check crowd pictures:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51487

You got here also some crowd pictures:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51481


Our look is changing from region to region in fact from city to city is more specific. For example Central Anatolia is usually dark ; Kayseri is a Central Anatolian city and majority of people look Middle Eastern, but Konya is also a Central Anatolian city and I can't claim the same and Ankara is another Central Anatolian city and it's mixed etc.

bullshit, you can't make such a claim by posting random pics on the internet

fact is that central and north-central anatolia is even fairer than greece

[Su]

Come on boys, there is nothing wrong with being Middle Eastern :cool: :coffee:


According to Mc Donalds I am somewhat 10% Arab but he couldnt give a specific country that's why he said: various subcontinents :)

And according to DNA Tribes I am 20.88% Arabian :thumb001:

Some more results from Gedmatch:

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/mdlp_k07.png
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/mdlp_k08.png
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/mdlp_k09.png
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/mdlp_k10.png
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/mdlp_k11.png
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/mdlp_k12.png
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/13k.png
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/eurogenes_k_12_b.png


I dont know which analyze is more reliable but I am a good mix of many things based on the results I got :wink

[Su]

bullshit, you can't make such a claim by posting random pics on the internet

fact is that central and north-central anatolia is even fairer than greece

Certain Central Anatolian cities are fair but not all.


People from Kayseri are dark on average, ask Onur or Pecheneg ;)

[Linet]

How on earth do you know your dna heritage? How do you do it? :blink:
what is paleo-med? Greek? :suspicious:

[Loki]

Come on boys, there is nothing wrong with being Middle Eastern :cool: :coffee:


nothing wrong, i greatly admire iranians and iraqis ... but in your case it is JUST NOT TRUE. i stand for truth

and if you still think caucasian = middle eastern you need a good education

[Su]

How on earth do you know your dna heritage? How do you do it? :blink:

There are test running and they calculate it for you, they basically compare your details with other samples. For example: Dr McDonald runs tests, http://gedmatch.com/ runs tests.



what is paleo-med? Greek? :suspicious:

No, I dont believe so:


First of all, below is a list of the geographic locations or ethnic groups in which the clusters from the Eurogenes' Gedmatch tests peak.

http://bga101.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/geographicethnic-peaks-in-eurogenes.html

[Su]

nothing wrong, i greatly admire iranians and iraqis ... but in your case it is JUST NOT TRUE. i stand for truth

and if you still think caucasian = middle eastern you need a good education

Middle East a political name for Western Asia, the whole world knows us as Middle Eastern and since I am also a Muslim, that doesnt bother me :coffee:

Google results for Middle East map. (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=middle+eastern+map&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=D3XWT_fbCIeX8gPk3-y0Aw&biw=1024&bih=578&sei=EXXWT-OoDoeK8gOfrNSHAw#um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=middle+east+map&oq=middle+east+map&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_l=img.3..0l10.65397.66005.0.66359.3.3.0.0.0.0.3 81.636.0j2j0j1.3.0...0.0.2_hfn1r__cU&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=1d90e8c2585a290d&biw=1024&bih=578)

[poiuytrewq0987]

Come on boys, there is nothing wrong with being Middle Eastern :cool: :coffee:


According to Mc Donalds I am somewhat 10% Arab but he couldnt give a specific country that's why he said: various subcontinents :)

And according to DNA Tribes I am 20.88% Arabian :thumb001:

Some more results from Gedmatch:

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j474/london110685/genetics/mdlp_k07.png

I dont know which analyze is more reliable but I am a good mix of many things based on the results I got :wink

Sometimesyes, you are a fake Turk if you only have 6% West Eurasian. Here's my K7 MDLP results to compare. :D

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/dfd.png

[Su]

Sometimesyes, you are a fake Turk if you only have 6% West Eurasian. Here's my K7 MDLP results to compare. :D

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/dfd.png

^Where is this above person from ?

[poiuytrewq0987]

^Where is this above person from ?

I am from Macedonia, I have 36% West Eurasian for some reason. :D

[Su]

I am from Macedonia, I have 36% West Eurasian for some reason. :D

I knew it was not Turkish :wink but you got Altaic Turkic :eek::eek::eek:

[poiuytrewq0987]

I knew it was not Turkish :wink but you got Altaic Turkic :eek::eek::eek:

The Altaic could be from Bulgars? :cool:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Bulgar_warior.jpg/250px-Bulgar_warior.jpg

[Su]

The Altaic could be from Bulgars? :cool:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Bulgar_warior.jpg/250px-Bulgar_warior.jpg

Sure :rolleyes:

Strange I got plenty of them although I got no connection to Bulgars :rolleyes:

[Loki]

Middle East a political name for Western Asia, the whole world knows us as Middle Eastern and since I am also a Muslim, that doesnt bother me :coffee:

Google results for Middle East map. (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=middle+eastern+map&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=D3XWT_fbCIeX8gPk3-y0Aw&biw=1024&bih=578&sei=EXXWT-OoDoeK8gOfrNSHAw#um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=middle+east+map&oq=middle+east+map&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_l=img.3..0l10.65397.66005.0.66359.3.3.0.0.0.0.3 81.636.0j2j0j1.3.0...0.0.2_hfn1r__cU&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=1d90e8c2585a290d&biw=1024&bih=578)

The only thing that bothers me is that you still don't understand what I'm trying to tell you :)

[poiuytrewq0987]

Sure :rolleyes:

Strange I got plenty of them although I got no connection to Bulgars :rolleyes:


The term Turkic represents a broad ethno-linguistic group of people including existing societies such as the Turkish, Azerbaijani, Chuvashes, Kazakhs, Tatars, Kyrgyzs, Turkmens, Uyghurs, Uzbeks, Bashkirs, Qashqai, Gagauzs, Yakuts, Crimean Karaites, Krymchaks, Karakalpaks, Karachays, Nogais and as well as past civilizations such as the Göktürks, Kumans, Kipchaks, Avars, Bulgars, Turgeshes, Khazars, Seljuk Turks, Ottoman Turks, Mamluks, Timurids and possibly Huns and the Xiongnu

I'm just saying that my Turkic input is quite possibly from Bulgars rather than Turkic invaders who came to Europe via Anatolia.

[Padre Organtino]

Душка is one fourth грузин:confused:

[Onur]

By looking at your graphs, Sebastos`s one looks 10 times more Turkish than SometimeYes. So, thats exactly why i keep saying that these calculators based on some false assumptions and it`s classifications are usually wrong.



I'm just saying that my Turkic input is quite possibly from Bulgars rather than Turkic invaders who came to Europe via Anatolia.
You cant know that but you can only assume or guess about it. Bulgars homeland was around Volga river and the Turkic groups who gone to Anatolia was living at the east of Khazar (Caspian) sea. They were surely intermingled with each other for centuries. They weren't living far away from each other and their language was quite similar if not same.

So, there is no such a thing as separate Bulgar dna input and Turkish dna input. All should be similar to each other. For example, several Cuman graves from 13th century has been excavated in Hungary and their DNA has been tested. Despite the fact that Cumans was living around today`s Ukraine and this was quite a distance from eastern Khazar sea but their DNA samples closely matches to the Turkish people. I think the reason was, these people were highly mobile, traveling great distances and having in close contact with everyone from Siberia to today`s Ukraine.

[Su]

By looking at your graphs, Sebastos`s one looks 10 times more Turkish than SometimeYes. So, thats exactly why i keep saying that these calculators based on some false assumptions and it`s classifications are usually wrong.

Many Turks have got similar to my results than his :rolleyes: , then many Turks are 10 time less Turkish than him :rolleyes:

[Onur]

Many Turks have got similar to my results than his :rolleyes: , then many Turks are 10 ten less Turkish than him :rolleyes:
So, like i said, these calculators are wrong because their assumptions are false.

Don't you agree that his graph looks more suitable for a Turkish person than yours?

[gossimer]

Central Asian.

[Su]

So, like i said, these calculators are wrong because their assumptions are false.

Don't you agree that his graph looks more suitable for a Turkish person than yours?

No, I dont agree. Are you trying to turkify him ? :wink

Also the calculators can/might have wrong assumptions, but for reasons many Turks have got "the same wrong assumptions" or similar wrong assumptions and these assumptions make a pattern. :coffee:

[poiuytrewq0987]

No, I dont agree. Are you trying to turkify him ? :wink

Also the calculators can/might have wrong assumptions, but for reasons many Turks have got "the same wrong assumptions" or similar wrong assumptions and these assumptions make a pattern. :coffee:

I think it's because you have way more pre-Turkic Anatolian blood than I do and it skews the results a quite bit for you. I don't really have that much Anatolian blood, probably neolithic, and it's probably why I score way less Caucasian and a lot more Eurasian than you do. Whether I really do have more West Eurasian blood than you do... I don't know it seems improbable but it wouldn't be surprising since much of Balkans were heavily depopulated due to constant war and a lot of newcomers made their input quite significantly as a result.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Come on boys, there is nothing wrong with being Middle Eastern :cool: :coffee:


She is middleastern in her heart and soul..problem is ,she wants to drag all nation with her because of her ideology

Eurasian..which part of this definition related to Middleast ?
if being Muslim is equal to being Middleastern, Indonesians are Middleastern too

[Su]

I think it's because you have way more pre-Turkic Anatolian blood than I do and it skews the results a quite bit for you. I don't really have that much Anatolian blood, probably neolithic, and it's probably why I score way less Caucasian and a lot more Eurasian than you do. Whether I really do have more West Eurasian blood than you do... I don't know it seems improbable but it wouldn't be surprising since much of Balkans were heavily depopulated due to constant war and a lot of newcomers made their input quite significantly as a result.

As I mentioned before, many Turks have got very similar results like mine.
And since you're not Turkish, it's normal you got a different breakdown than Turks.

But as I mentioned, we Turks do have a pattern and you dont really fit into that pattern, which is logical, you're European.

Onur is obsessed with Europeans so it didnt shock me, what he claimed about my and your results.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Душка is one fourth грузин:confused:

Not really, Caucasian admixture is common all across Balkans and Anatolia and including the Caucasus. It is another name for West Asian.

[Onur]

No, I dont agree. Are you trying to turkify him ? :wink
Hell no. You should have known by now that i don't believe these calculators and stuff. So, i would never try to turkify someone with these numbers and letters with excel graphs :D I find these things as comical.

I just said that by looking at the results of the so-called calculator with false (according to me) assumptions. Ofc i am not sure what this calculator means with "west Eurasia - mediterranean". If it`s as fishy as "Turkic with N,C,Q" then i don't know.

With his much higher west Eurasian and mediterranean percentage, his graph looked more suitable to Turkish person to me.


Onur is obsessed with Europeans so it didnt shock me, what he claimed about my and your results.
Can you explain what you mean there because this is the first time ever someone said something like this to me. What obsession you talking about?

[Kanuni]

So, like i said, these calculators are wrong because their assumptions are false.

Go educate yourself ignorant.Autosomal DNA whether you like it or not are million of time more reliable than your biased claims.


Don't you agree that his graph looks more suitable for a Turkish person than yours?

LMAO,West Eurasian in that project probably equalls the Atlanto-Baltic in Dodecad which is a Mesolithic European component.If SometimesYes had it in big percentage that would have been really dubious.McDonald guessed her ethnicity based on her DNA data.

[StonyArabia]

They don't have much Middle Eastern admix, if you mean Arabian or Berber. Though some Anatolian Turks do have Morisco ancestors which settled when they were expelled from Iberia along with the Sephardim. They are connected to the Middle East by culture and religion, and geography and they are also connected to Europe. They are Eurasians and are mostly of local Anatolian stock with some Turkic. Middle Eastern is wide term but maybe.

[orangepulp]

correction:
anatolian Turks are west asian people with minor "east asian" input.
("Turkic" and "east asian" are completely different things)
90% of the Turkic peoples on earth are pred. caucasoid.

and how can you know the dna results of the Seljuks for God sake?
What do you think, they were eskimos or something?

According to Dienekes Anatolian Turks are 1/7 Turkic.

So you think Selcuk's were Armenian/Georgian like people??
Geography is related to our genetics, look at where the Selcuks came from. How come present day Central Asians don't cluster with West Asians in map plots. If Anatolian Turks had significant amount of Turkic we would not cluster with West Asians. I am not saying that the first Turks were eskimos but what I am saying is that their Caucasoid part is different.



average Turk is 7% east asian, there are some Turks with 12-13% and some Turks with 2-3%. i'm talking about the average!

i understand your religious obsessions, but central asian admixture doesn't make us "infidel". I'm a muslim too, being muslim and being middle eastern are two different things and btw Seljuk Turks were much more intimate muslims than arabic racist-umayyad butchers. (see talkan and jurcan massacres in central asia)
and don't worry, nobody can say that "go back to turkmenistan bla bla bla" just because of our central asian admixture.
I'm not saying this because of my religious obsession. Of course the Selcuks were Muslims in fact majority of the Muslims in the world are non Arab, Arabs only make 30% of the Muslim population.

I don't have Arab obsession but I live in the Arab world, I know Syrians, Iraqis, Egyptians etc... It amazes me to see that there are many similarities in our cultures, which is very natural due to Ottoman rule. Ottoman Empire was a multi-ethnic empire which naturally caused culture exchanged.

Even the averages presented in these tests cannot be a full representation of all Anatolian Turks. Did you know that in the Turkish samples Balkan Turks are also included? Balkan Turks score different admixture percentages compared to Anatolian Turks, like their Euros scores are significantly higher than Anatolian Turks which automatically makes the European average for Turks higher, Turks from North East Turkey score significant West Asian, Turks from the West and central region score higher mongoloid. Basically its important to put the ancestral region into consideration.


The middle-east means semitic and Iranian peoples and cultures. Turks are neither semitic nor Iranic, not culturally, genetically or any other way.

I generally agree Samuel Huntington about Turks. We have our own civilization. We are neither middle-eastern nor Europeans and we are not a part of islamic world either. We are just Turks but i also call us as Eurasian people because this is the only term which can be suitable for us other than Turks.
First of all if you consider Iranian ME than you should consider Turks as ME too since Iranians genetically are not distant from Turks.If you can't even differentiate between semtic and iranic genetics and culture than I'm sorry but you are not the wisest. Also the term Middle East is not synonymous with Semitic, Middle East is more of a geographical/political term and Turkey is usually included in the Middle East in most maps. The Anatolian Turkish culture is not that different from neighboring cultures, so don't exaggerate. Don't forget Turkey was the capital of the last Islamic empire which means there has been cultural exchange between fellow Muslim countries.

Last point many Turks don't have an inferiority complex and don't mind to be linked with ME.

[Linet]

Even the averages presented in these tests cannot be a full representation of all Anatolian Turks. Did you know that in the Turkish samples Balkan Turks are also included? Balkan Turks score different admixture percentages compared to Anatolian Turks, like their Euros scores are significantly higher than Anatolian Turks which automatically makes the European average for Turks higher, Turks from North East Turkey score significant West Asian, Turks from the West and central region score higher mongoloid. Basically its important to put the ancestral region into consideration.


I think thats the essense of the whole thread...in those 5 lines Oranges logic is analysing and accurate like math, you cant deny maths...



Can you explain what you mean there because this is the first time ever someone said something like this to me. What obsession you talking about?

But on the other hand they tell you all the time you are obsessed with Greeks=Europeans, dont they tell you that? :eyes

[orangepulp]

Well tables are saying they have plenty of middle-eastern admixture.That being most common.
But how they look shows they are very closed to europeans.
Not sure if they look closer to georgians,armenians or romanians or other europeans.But they do not look middle easterners at all.
However,I am not so sure about their middle eastern admixture,since in that thread with turk actors they look very europeans.I am thinking that is more like 50% european admixture (baltic,med,north-western) about 30-40% middle eastern admixture and about 10% altaian+other real asian admixture.
Since middle eastern admixture is not in fact asian admixture,but caucasian admixture so is fully european.
Georgians have plenty of middle eastern admixture,however they inhabit that caucasian area from thousands of years.
For me turks are fully europeans.
And members of our forum from Turkey got some autosomal results?

Turks are dominantly West Asian which is different than the European and South West Asian admixtures. West Asian/Caucasus component is not European, it is present in Euros but it doesnt mean it is Euro in origin.

These are my DNA results, btw:

23andme:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39254

DNA Tribes:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50240

[Padre Organtino]

Not really, Caucasian admixture is common all across Balkans and Anatolia and including the Caucasus. It is another name for West Asian.

I was joking around:tongue

[Lathander]

I used to associate myself fully with central asia,but I began to have sympathy for lydians too:)

[orangepulp]

By looking at your graphs, Sebastos`s one looks 10 times more Turkish than SometimeYes. So, thats exactly why i keep saying that these calculators based on some false assumptions and it`s classifications are usually wrong.


You clearly lack knowledge in Turkish genetics, Sebastos' DNA results do not look more Turkish than sometimesyes' results.

Sebastos results are typical for a Balkans person not an Anatolian Turk.

MDLP K=7

----------Me sometimesyes sebastos
Caucasian 56.42% 49.87% 26.32% <<<We have elevated Caucasus
Paleo-Mediterranean 21.31% 23.25% 28.10%
Paleo-Scandinavian 2.22% 0.77% 28.10% << We lack Euro
Altaic-Turkic 7.47% 11.81% 2.11% <<<< We have more Turkic
South-Central-Asian 6.34% 4.93% 2.95%
West-Eurasian 6.09% 6.33% 32.42% <<We lack here too
Volga-Uralic 0.15% 3.04% 2.62%

Onur thinks he can talk on behalf of Anatolian Turks when he himself isn't an Anatolian Turk but a recent immigrant from the Balkans. Who is he to say sometimesyes' results are less Turkish than a Balkans person when it clearly is not the case.

[Su]

You clearly lack knowledge in Turkish genetics, Sebastos' DNA results do not look more Turkish than sometimesyes' results.

Sebastos results are typical for a Balkans person not an Anatolian Turk.

MDLP K=7

----------Me sometimesyes sebastos
Caucasian 56.42% 49.87% 26.32% <<<We have elevated Caucasus
Paleo-Mediterranean 21.31% 23.25% 28.10%
Paleo-Scandinavian 2.22% 0.77% 28.10% << We lack Euro
Altaic-Turkic 7.47% 11.81% 2.11% <<<< We have more Turkic
South-Central-Asian 6.34% 4.93% 2.95%
West-Eurasian 6.09% 6.33% 32.42% <<We lack here too
Volga-Uralic 0.15% 3.04% 2.62%

Onur thinks he can talk on behalf of Anatolian Turks when he himself isn't an Anatolian Turk but a recent immigrant from the Balkans. Who is he to say sometimesyes' results are less Turkish than a Balkans person when it clearly is not the case.

Thank you very much for making it more clear for ignorant onur. Infact we got in ABF more than 5 Turkish users and all of them have got similar results to ours (yours and mine) and totally different than that European user.

And yeah onur is not an Anatolian Turk and he likes talking on behalf of us the whole time. Sometimes I dont mind it BUT calling our results as wrong although it's how it's supposed to be, is very ignorant. It's shows he's got no idea but he talks. Maybe because he's a recent immigrant he's got that obsession of Balkan people?! Who konws maybe he doesnt really fit in Turkey nor in Balkans, he's inbetween these places so he's got identity problems?

[Padre Organtino]

Come on, Onur's whole posting history revolves around overcoming his own insecurities.

[Onur]

And yeah onur is not an Anatolian Turk and he likes talking on behalf of us the whole time. Sometimes I dont mind it BUT calling our results as wrong although it's how it's supposed to be, is very ignorant. It's shows he's got no idea but he talks. Maybe because he's a recent immigrant he's got that obsession of Balkan people?! Who konws maybe he doesnt really fit in Turkey nor in Balkans, he's inbetween these places so he's got identity problems?
lol what is this? some secret agreement between orangepulp and you to bash me?

I am not a recent immigrant. My family came here in 1912 and maybe you are not aware but we balkan immigrants are 35-40% of Turkey. Also, there is no such a distinction in turkey as "Anatolian Turks and others", don't try to create one. It`s obvious that your mind has been confused with these numbers, letters and neo-hellenic freak Dienekes`s comments about it.

I have no intention to try defending myself against you, so quit attacking me, it`s nothing but laughable.

[Padre Organtino]

I am not a recent immigrant. My family came here in 1912 and maybe you are not aware but we balkan immigrants are 35-40% of Turkey. Also, there is no such a distinction in turkey as "Anatolian Turks and others", don't try to create one. It`s obvious that your mind has been confused with these numbers, letters and neo-hellenic freak Dienekes`s comments about it.


Families with some Balkan ancestors and not pure Balkanoids like you. And yes, from historic perspective you're a recent immigrant.

[Linet]

...so Onur doesnt even have Turkish blood? :blink:

[poiuytrewq0987]

You clearly lack knowledge in Turkish genetics, Sebastos' DNA results do not look more Turkish than sometimesyes' results.

Sebastos results are typical for a Balkans person not an Anatolian Turk.

MDLP K=7

----------Me sometimesyes sebastos
Caucasian 56.42% 49.87% 26.32% <<<We have elevated Caucasus
Paleo-Mediterranean 21.31% 23.25% 28.10%
Paleo-Scandinavian 2.22% 0.77% 28.10% << We lack Euro
Altaic-Turkic 7.47% 11.81% 2.11% <<<< We have more Turkic
South-Central-Asian 6.34% 4.93% 2.95%
West-Eurasian 6.09% 6.33% 32.42% <<We lack here too
Volga-Uralic 0.15% 3.04% 2.62%

Onur thinks he can talk on behalf of Anatolian Turks when he himself isn't an Anatolian Turk but a recent immigrant from the Balkans. Who is he to say sometimesyes' results are less Turkish than a Balkans person when it clearly is not the case.

I don't have 28% Paleo-Scandinavian. :D It's 1.59%. But generally I agree with Onur about the ridiculous division of Anatolian and Balkan Turks. Are Eastern Thrace Turks immigrants now according to your and sometimesyes' logic?

[Pecheneg]

According to Dienekes Anatolian Turks are 1/7 Turkic.

So you think Selcuk's were Armenian/Georgian like people??
Geography is related to our genetics, look at where the Selcuks came from. How come present day Central Asians don't cluster with West Asians in map plots. If Anatolian Turks had significant amount of Turkic we would not cluster with West Asians. I am not saying that the first Turks were eskimos but what I am saying is that their Caucasoid part is different.

I'm not saying this because of my religious obsession. Of course the Selcuks were Muslims in fact majority of the Muslims in the world are non Arab, Arabs only make 30% of the Muslim population.

I don't have Arab obsession but I live in the Arab world, I know Syrians, Iraqis, Egyptians etc... It amazes me to see that there are many similarities in our cultures, which is very natural due to Ottoman rule. Ottoman Empire was a multi-ethnic empire which naturally caused culture exchanged.

Even the averages presented in these tests cannot be a full representation of all Anatolian Turks. Did you know that in the Turkish samples Balkan Turks are also included? Balkan Turks score different admixture percentages compared to Anatolian Turks, like their Euros scores are significantly higher than Anatolian Turks which automatically makes the European average for Turks higher, Turks from North East Turkey score significant West Asian, Turks from the West and central region score higher mongoloid. Basically its important to put the ancestral region into consideration.

First of all if you consider Iranian ME than you should consider Turks as ME too since Iranians genetically are not distant from Turks.If you can't even differentiate between semtic and iranic genetics and culture than I'm sorry but you are not the wisest. Also the term Middle East is not synonymous with Semitic, Middle East is more of a geographical/political term and Turkey is usually included in the Middle East in most maps. The Anatolian Turkish culture is not that different from neighboring cultures, so don't exaggerate. Don't forget Turkey was the capital of the last Islamic empire which means there has been cultural exchange between fellow Muslim countries.

Last point many Turks don't have an inferiority complex and don't mind to be linked with ME.

Sorry but you are abslolutely brainwashed person with those Dienekes, etc. popular genetic research bullshits.
and what do you think tell me, Seljuk Turks were Yakuts or Amerindians? even hundreds of thousands of tajik and persian (trader, religious men etc) came to anatolia with Turkoman tribes / Seljuks. ethnic structure of anatolia changed in between 11th to 14th century.
Today's Zaza people (iranic) of Turkey are also fled from Khwarazmshahs and settled around Tunceli region.
Today's Kurdish people of Turkey are originally from an area between Zagros mountains to mesopotamia.
and 40% of the Today's Turkey's population are balkan and caucasian Turkish immigrants...do you really believe this "few turk came and turkified everyone" bullshit?
There are thousands of documents, ottoman archives etc. that shows us millions of Turkoman nomads of anatolia in the past.
This native anatolian theory is completely bullshit, since most people in Turkey actually came from different regions like Caucasia, Khorasan, Balkans, Crimea, Crete island, etc.
and i don't know you and your family, but here, in my region, we have much more cultural similarities with Turkmens than with your beloved Arabs and Levantines.

our Oghuz relatives in central asia (Turkmens) are only fucking 15% asian and their neigbours were mostly central asian Turkic peoples like Kazakhs, Uzbeks etc for centuries, so what do you expect from anatolian Turks now tell me please?
and yes, we have significant Oghuz-Turkmen ancestry (Turkoman migration and their numbers in anatolia documented very well !), you can believe whatever you want.
according to these geneticists, there is no single Turk on earth, but perhaps only Yakuts? but they are also not pure Turkic, because they have some caucasoid admixture, right?

and do not try to divide us like "anatolian turks" - "balkan turks" !

[Onur]

I don't have 28% Paleo-Scandinavian. :D It's 1.59%.
lol, so orangepulp is more scandanavian than you :)


But generally I agree with Onur about the ridiculous division of Anatolian and Balkan Turks. Are Eastern Thrace Turks immigrants now according to your and sometimesyes' logic?
There is no such a distinction in Turkey mate, never been before. They are trying to create one in their minds to be able to produce counter-argument against me.

Especially orangepulp has some weird fairytales like that. Once she said that she is a native Anatolian and his folks has been islamized by Arabs even before Turks came to Anatolia and they wholeheartedly accepted Turkish regime because of that. Can you believe that? lol :D

[Linet]

are only fucking 15% asian

:shocked:... He said the F word :eek:....He said the F word :angry:...ban him now!!!! :aufsmaul_2: :sad_shakefist:

[orangepulp]

I don't have 28% Paleo-Scandinavian. :D It's 1.59%. But generally I agree with Onur about the ridiculous division of Anatolian and Balkan Turks. Are Eastern Thrace Turks immigrants now according to your and sometimesyes' logic?
Sorry my mistake but still you are different than Anatolian Turk.

I dont differnitiate between Turks in cultural matters but I do so in genetic matter and also in matters where people tell me to leave my native land when they are recent immigrant to Anatolia ( Yes, early 1900's immigration is considered recent) do you get the picture my friend?

Quote from Onur:



As i told you before, we wont let you islamists poison our country and turn us into one of the muslim Arab states who are under CIA control. If you dont wanna live in secular rules, do not come back to Turkey and stay wherever you are and if possible please get your delusional so-called "religious muslims" with you. I think people like you belongs to US vassal emirates in middle-east, not to Turkey.


Sorry but you are abslolutely brainwashed person with those Dienekes, etc. popular genetic research bullshits.
and what do you think tell me, Seljuk Turks were Yakuts or Amerindians? even hundreds of thousands of tajik and persian (trader, religious men etc) came to anatolia with Turkoman tribes / Seljuks. ethnic structure of anatolia changed in between 11th to 14th century.
Today's Zaza people (iranic) of Turkey are also fled from Khwarazmshahs and settled around Tunceli region.
Today's Kurdish people of Turkey are originally from an area between Zagros mountains to mesopotamia.
and 40% of the Today's Turkey's population are balkan and caucasian Turkish immigrants...do you really believe this "few turk came and turkified everyone" bullshit?
There are thousands of documents, ottoman archives etc. that shows us millions of Turkoman nomads of anatolia in the past.
This native anatolian theory is completely bullshit, since most people in Turkey actually came from different regions like Caucasia, Khorasan, Balkans, Crimea, Crete island, etc.
and i don't know you and your family, but here, in my region, we have much more cultural similarities with Turkmens than with your beloved Arabs and Levantines.

our Oghuz relatives in central asia (Turkmens) are only fucking 15% asian and their neigbours were mostly central asian Turkic peoples like Kazakhs, Uzbeks etc for centuries, so what do you expect from anatolian Turks now tell me please?
and yes, we have significant Oghuz-Turkmen ancestry (Turkoman migration and their numbers in anatolia documented very well !), you can believe whatever you want.
according to these geneticists, there is no single Turk on earth, but perhaps only Yakuts? but they are also not pure Turkic, because they have some caucasoid admixture, right?

and do not try to divide us like "anatolian turks" - "balkan turks" !

So you are denying genetics?

Averages from the Dodecads k12b:

Turkish Turkmen

Gedrosia:13.4 28
Siberian:3.1 6.6
North West African:0 0
South East Asian:0 1.7
Atlantic med:13.2 4.7
North Euro:9.3 10.3
South Asian:1 5.4
East African:0 0
South West Asian:10.3 6.8
East Asian:3 7.7
Caucasus:46.4 28.7
Sub sahran:0 0

I did this one from before, West Asian averages:


K12b Average for Greeks, Turks, Armenians, Georgians

Gedrosia: 3.3% 13.4% 16.8% 16.9%
Siberian: 0.3% 3.1% 0% 0.1%
Northwest_African: 0.6% 0% 0% 0%
Southeast_Asian: 0% 0% 0% 0%
Atlantic_Med: 28% 13.2% 10.3% 0%
North_European:20.2% 9.6% 3% 9%
South_Asian: 0.1% 1% 0% 0%
East_African: 0% 0% 0% 0%
Southwest_Asian: 10.1% 10.3% 14% 0%
East_Asian: 0% 3% 0% 0%
Caucasus: 37.4% 46.4% 55.8% 73.9%
Sub_Saharan: 0% 0% 0% 0%



Now tell me, to which populationd admixture results does the Turkish average resemble to most??


Check this out, number 12 is a Balkan Turk, notice the elevated European admixture. He is a bit different than Anatolian Turks.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/ADMIXTURETurkish_D_12.png

lol, so orangepulp is more scandanavian than you :)


There is no such a distinction in Turkey mate, never been before. They are trying to create one in their minds to be able to produce counter-argument against me.




Who is the divider, hypocrite.
You tell me to leave my land because I am a Muslim and thats okay but when I differentiate cause of geographical and genetical factors I am the divider!!
I dont mind anybody living in Anatolia as long as they come in peace. You come to Anatolia than you must respect Anatolian Turks religion, no one is asking you to believe but you don't have the right to judge us.

Especially orangepulp has some weird fairytales like that. Once she said that she is a native Anatolian and his folks has been islamized by Arabs even before Turks came to Anatolia and they wholeheartedly accepted Turkish regime because of that. Can you believe that? lol :
Excuse me but my DNA clearly shows dominant preTurkic influence, I am probably overall 10-15% Turkic. Obvioulsy my maternal side has not intermingled with other ethnic groups that have settled in Anatolia and seem to be indigenous to their region, my Turkic genes are definately from my fathers side. Its clear that my maternal side areTurkified Anatolians that have accepted the idetity cause they were already Muslims due to Arab conquest of the North East parts of Turkey before the Turks conquest. Btw, I have seen Anatolian North Eastern Turks that have results same as Georgians.

[Azalea]

Thank you very much for making it more clear for ignorant onur. Infact we got in ABF more than 5 Turkish users and all of them have got similar results to ours (yours and mine) and totally different than that European user.

And yeah onur is not an Anatolian Turk and he likes talking on behalf of us the whole time. Sometimes I dont mind it BUT calling our results as wrong although it's how it's supposed to be, is very ignorant. It's shows he's got no idea but he talks. Maybe because he's a recent immigrant he's got that obsession of Balkan people?! Who konws maybe he doesnt really fit in Turkey nor in Balkans, he's inbetween these places so he's got identity problems?

Why would he have identity problems? I have not seen Onur splitting Turks up into 'Anatolian Turks' and 'Balkan Turks' unlike you and orangepulp. I've never seen him saying anything about Balkan Turks being more or less Turkish either, yet you and Orangepulp are constantly making ad-hominems and acting as if he is a second class Turk whenever you are having a discussion with him. You and orangepulp should keep in mind that Anatolian Turks are not any more or less Turkish than he is.

Also, it's no more than natural that Onur's interest in Europe/Balkans is higher than ours since his ancestors are from there. But calling it a obsession or saying that he has identity problems? Meh. That label fits certain other people in this thread much better.

[Azalea]

Sorry my mistake but still you are different than Anatolian Turk.

I dont differnitiate between Turks in cultural matters but I do so in genetic matter and also in matters where people tell me to leave my native land when they are recent immigrant to Anatolia ( Yes, early 1900's immigration is considered recent) do you get the picture my friend?


Actually, you do. You always find a way to drag genetics into every discussion even when it's totally irrelevant. This Anatolian obsession you have is really sickening. And although I don't always agree with Onur, I am on his side with this. Seriously, why are you getting so upset with him when he says that you should leave the country when you are against secularims and when you have actually left Turkey because of this? You have already done what he said. So I really don't get why you are getting upset. You are clearly very different from the majority of the Turks in culture and mentality since you've choosen an Arab ruled country over Turkey, where you are very comfortable with your life.

[Azalea]

Who is the divider, hypocrite.
You tell me to leave my land because I am a Muslim and thats okay but when I differentiate cause of geographical and genetical factors I am the divider!!
I dont mind anybody living in Anatolia as long as they come in peace. You come to Anatolia than you must respect Anatolian Turks religion, no one is asking you to believe but you don't have the right to judge us.

'Respect Anatolian Turks religion' lol wtf does this mean? Are Balkan Turks Christian or Jewish by religion? Seriously though, unlike you, it doesn't seem like Onur has much problems with the religion of the Turks since he is living in Turkey, while you apparently feel more comfortable among your fellow Arabs. Also, my dear Anatolian sister, Onur is Turkish. He has as much right to live in Turkey as you. His ancestors fought for this land and made it Turkish. Your DNA doesn't give you any freaking privileges. Because as long as Turkey is Turkish, you have no rights to devide Turks into Balkan, Middle Eastern or Anatolian. If you have problems with this then you should consider joining your Kurdish, Armenian, Georgian and whatever more genetic brethren and fight for your own state.. or just leave it, like you've already done.

[Linet]

Give Onur back to the Balkans :shakefist:...Turks have stolen Onur from FYrom :angry:...Give back the kid, you kidnappers...:grumpy:

Onur, come back to the Balkans, dont hear the voices...:wacko:

[Incal]

LOL @ turks believing turkish is a race.

[Azalea]

LOL @ turks believing turkish is a race.

Where? Who?

[Onur]

Sorry my mistake but still you are different than Anatolian Turk.

...so Onur doesnt even have Turkish blood? :blink:
As always, the so-called islamists are hand in hand with Greeks. You guys reminded me this;
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/3293/ixdivisiongreeksandottozs9.jpg

This picture has been taken sometime between 1919-1921. These are the soldiers of Greek invasion army in the city of Manisa. The three turbaned traitors by them are Mehdi Derviş, Sütçü Mehmed , Şamlı Mehmet who later did this in 1930;
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menemen_Olay%C4%B1

Ofc history repeats itself, there is no escape from this.



Give Onur back to the Balkans :shakefist:...Turks have stolen Onur from FYrom :angry:...Give back the kid, you kidnappers...:grumpy:
Linet, probably you don't know or care but we have been expelled out from our ancestral lands. Turkey didn't call us back to Anatolia. Only during the Balkan wars, 300.000 of us has been massacred and more than 500.000 people was able to escape to Turkey and this year is 100th year of our great exodus and massacre.

[Incal]

Where? Who?

Not talking about you precisely my dear turkess but about orangejuice saying Onur is less turk because he came from the balkans and blah blah.

[Pecheneg]

..

[Linet]

Linet, probably you don't know or care but we have been expelled out from our ancestral lands. Turkey didn't call us back to Anatolia. Only during the Balkan wars, 300.000 of us has been massacred and more than 500.000 people was able to escape to Turkey and this year is 100th year of our great exodus and massacre.

The Bulgarians beat you up? :blink:
...I say we invade to Bulgaria now, they are useless..:tsk: Never let a Bulgarian do the job of a Greek :wink:. But truth is i have never heard of anyone killing massive numbers of muslims to the Balkans, while the opposite was quite common, everyday life, lets say...
Anyway, you still dont reply to me my love, do you have any Turkish blood or the Bulgarians just kicked you out because you were muslims? Because if thats the case, then Orange is just right as well as sometimes...

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Bulgarians beat you up? :blink:
...I say we invade to Bulgaria now, they are useless..:tsk: Never let a Bulgarian do the job of a Greek :wink:. But truth is i have never heard of anyone killing massive numbers of muslims to the Balkans, while the opposite was quite common, everyday life, lets say...
Anyway, you still dont reply to me my love, do you have any Turkish blood or the Bulgarians just kicked you out because you were muslims? Because if thats the case, then Orange is just right as well as sometimes...

Excuse me? You started two major wars with Turkey and LOST badly both wars. If anything, you need Bulgarians to teach you Greeks how to fight wars. :rolleyes:

[orangepulp]

edit..

[orangepulp]

Actually, you do. You always find a way to drag genetics into every discussion even when it's totally irrelevant. This Anatolian obsession you have is really sickening. And although I don't always agree with Onur, I am on his side with this. Seriously, why are you getting so upset with him when he says that you should leave the country when you are against secularims and when you have actually left Turkey because of this? You have already done what he said. So I really don't get why you are getting upset. You are clearly very different from the majority of the Turks in culture and mentality since you've choosen an Arab ruled country over Turkey, where you are very comfortable with your life.
And the Turkic obsession you people have is even more sickening. You guys are always like Turkic this, Turkic that, seriously enough. I mean I am sure even the first Ottoman Turks were not that Turkic obsessed. Whats wrong with connecting to my Anatolian side. Is it shameful to be Anatolian?? We are genetically more preTurkic and you think I should ignore that??

Yes, I left Turkey because I have no freedom but it doesnt mean I never visit Turkey or I will never come back. Besides these days Turkey is a bit more tolerant towards religious people due to the current party. Also you have recognised Turks wrong, many Turks are religious and even if not religious they are Muslims that are not against Islam just like 5aday. The government maybe secular but the people are not.Anti Islamic Turks are a minority. Islam was forcefully taken away from Turks. Why do you think there are restriction on women with hijab, so that less women would wear the head scarf. There was even a rule that you can't go to Quran schools after a certain age!! What the hell is that! Why so many restrictions?? Just so they can take Islam away from the people.


'Respect Anatolian Turks religion' lol wtf does this mean? Are Balkan Turks Christian or Jewish by religion? Seriously though, unlike you, it doesn't seem like Onur has much problems with the religion of the Turks since he is living in Turkey, while you apparently feel more comfortable among your fellow Arabs. Also, my dear Anatolian sister, Onur is Turkish. He has as much right to live in Turkey as you. His ancestors fought for this land and made it Turkish. Your DNA doesn't give you any freaking privileges. Because as long as Turkey is Turkish, you have no rights to devide Turks into Balkan, Middle Eastern or Anatolian. If you have problems with this then you should consider joining your Kurdish, Armenian, Georgian and whatever more genetic brethren and fight for your own state.. or just leave it, like you've already done.

Onur doesnt have problem with Turks religion, yea right. He has been constantly degrading and insulting Islam and denying any Islamic influence in our culture. Onur is an anti-Islamic secular atheist. I would never bring up such Balkan and Anatolian issue if he never disrespected religious Turkish Muslims in the first place. He tells me to leave my land yet you say nothing to him. Obviously I dont even care who lives in Turkey but if he is telling me to leave my land because I am a Muslim then it is actually he who should leave in the first place because he originates from the Balkans, at least I know all my ancestors to be from Turkish soil. Who the hell are Arabs that you guys keep bringing up Arabs, I said I am a Muslim and Arab does not mean Islam. I follow the Islamic culture and for me being a Muslim is more important than being a Turk.In fact I am not a freaking nationalist like you people nor do I discriminate people cause of what they believe in, I dont mind Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Arabs, Jews, Christians living in my land, I dont care if I have other ancestry other than Turkic ancestry. I actually dont care for all this Turkish or whatever identity. Nationalism is what brought down fall of the Ottoman Empire, it is what devided us, before all etnicities used to live in peace within Ottoman soil. My identity is Islam and I attack only when I am attacked first. I am not gonna sit and watch this hypocrite attack Islam and religious Turkish Muslims, you can do that but I will not!

Yea his ancestors fought, big probably Muslim ancestors. Muslim Turks fought for these lands, don't forget that. Turks are not only Turks but Muslims. If defending Turkism and the Turkish identity is okay then so is defending our beliefs.!

[Linet]

Excuse me? You started two major wars with Turkey and LOST badly both wars. If anything, you need Bulgarians to teach you Greeks how to fight wars. :rolleyes:

Are you a Bulgarian dear? :eyes:
Last time i checked you were trying to be Greek and Dorian...:rolleyes:

[Linet]

Yes, I left Turkey because I have no freedom but it doesnt mean I never visit Turkey or I will never come back. Besides these days Turkey is a bit more tolerant towards religious people due to the current party. Also you have recognised Turks wrong, many Turks are religious and even if not religious they are Muslims that are not against Islam just like 5aday. The government maybe secular but the people are not.Anti Islamic Turks are a minority. Islam was forcefully taken away from Turks. Why do you think there are restriction on women with hijab, so that less women would wear the head scarf. There was even a rule that you can't go to Quran schools after a certain age!! What the hell is that! Why so many restrictions?? Just so they can take Islam away from the people.

True, Turkey cant totally forshake Islam since its the religion of its people but it does everything possible to weaken Islam...




Onur doesnt have problem with Turks religion, yea right. He has been constantly degrading and insulting Islam and denying any Islamic influence in our culture. Onur is an anti-Islamic secular atheist. I would never bring up such Balkan and Anatolian issue if he never disrespected religious Turkish Muslims in the first place. He tells me to leave my land yet you say nothing to him.

He is just confused...He was raised as Turk but he doesnt have Turkish blood... So he wish for all Turkey to be like him, in order to fit himself. Thats the reason he has problem with Greeks as well...he feels Turk but cant ignore his Fyromian roots...the result is what you see, hate for Greece and wish to change Turkey in order to fit into the country more himself, he doesnt like it that the rest Turks (the real ones) are different from him...



I actually dont care for all this Turkish or whatever identity. Nationlism is what brought down the Ottoman Empire, it is what devided us, before all etnicities used to live in peace within Ottoman soil. My identity is Islam and I attack only when I am attacked first. I am not gonna sit and watch this hypocrite attack Islam and religious Turkish Muslims, you can do that but I will not!


True as well...

[orangepulp]

He is just confused...He was raised as Turk but he doesnt have Turkish blood... So he wish for all Turkey to be like him, in order to fit himself. Thats the reason he has problem with Greeks as well...he feels Turk but cant ignore his Fyromian roots...the result is what you see, hate for Greece and wish to change Turkey in order to fit into the country more himself, he doesnt like it that the rest Turks (the real ones) are different from him...




There is no Turkish blood and even the whole concept of Turkish blood is stupid. Asia Minor is not like any other land, it is land that has been subjected to the most migrations, a bridge that connects Europa to Asia, land that has been conquered several times by different ethnicities, land that has religious significancy for the Christians, Muslims, premonotheistic religions, etc..Asia Minor has been open to a wide group of people.People who live in Asia Minor are ethnically mixed. Turkish identity today is not based on genetic factors, one must understand that. So even if Onur is raised as a Turk then he is Turkish by identity. Who has pure Turkish blood, what is that?? Ottomans as the ruling class left their identity, this is normal. Ottoman Empire was a multi ethnic society where intermingiling has taken place. Just like how today Levantines call themselves Arabs though genetically they are not exactly the same as a Yemeni but do have Arab influence, the same can be said for Turks. That is what happens when a foreign ethnicity rules a land, people adapt to the rulers identity. Before the Turks people of Asia Minor and even the Leavnt identified as Romans but they were not completely Romans. The name of the strong survive.

[Linet]

I am not talking about pure Turkish, but till the ethnicity exist...a nationality is not only in the blood but also in the traditions and culture. As Greek my skin got goose bumbs at the thought that a nation may not have connection to its ancestors, even if we are talking about the Turks...

See it in a different way, a Turk back then has married a Russian wife...of course he raise his kids as Turks and they have full Turkish beliefs and culture and mentality. Then those kids marry the kids of their neighbour who was married to a Bulgarian... but their kids too were brought up like Turks...
Whats the result? Many foreign blood coming in but the Turkic mentality is there. Turks didnt let their kids become nothing but Turks... imagine now the kids of those couples went at war and meet and married to greek women... what would be result? The kids will be 1/6 Turks but will be raised in full Turkish culture and will never think to be called anything else but Turks....
Even if Turks didnt mind their kids to have another blood they mind for their culture... and no matter what, they choosed this result...a strong in spirit Turkey even if there wasnt there the blood. So todays Turkey is the result of the wishes of the Turkic people.. so even in that sense, you are Turks...

[Su]

I am not talking about pure Turkish, but till the ethnicity exist...a nationality is not only in the blood but also in the traditions and culture. As Greek my skin got goose bumbs even in the thought that some nation may not have connection to its ancestors, even if we are talking about the Turks...

See it in a different way, a Turk back then has married a Russian wife...of course he raise his kids as Turks and they have full Turkish beliefs and culture and mentality. Then those kids marry the kids of their neighbour who was married to a Bulgarian... but their kids too were brought up like Turks...
Whats the result? Many foreign blood coming in but the Turkic mentality is there. Turks didnt let their kids become nothing but Turks... imagine now the kids of those couples went at war and meet a Greek woman... what would be result? The kids will be 1/6 Turks but will be raised in full Turkish culture and will never think to be called anything else but Turks....
Even if Turks didnt mind their kids to have another blood they mind for their culture... and no matter what they choosed this result.. So todays Turkey is the result of the wishes of the Turkic people.. so even in that sense, you are Turks...

Most of Turks dont care, what type of ancestor we got let's say 200 years ago. So again most of Turks are proud to be Turks and they see just Turkey as their native country which is right so. History is history, today and future are more important.

[Linet]

Who forgets his history, can kiss his future Goodbye...
...Yes you have to built your future and work for it but in order to do that you have to watch your past in order not to make the same mistakes and also to immitate what has helped you back then....
...If i forget i burned my hand from the fire, i ll do it again...even as human beings our past is giving us lessons...how much more as nations...

[Pecheneg]

There is no Turkish blood and even the whole concept of Turkish blood is stupid. Asia Minor is not like any other land, it is land hat had been subjected to the most migrations, a bridge that connects Europa to Asia, land that has been conquered several times by different ethnicities, land that has religious significancy for the Christians, Muslims, premonotheistic religions, etc..Asia Minor has been open to a wide group of people.People who live in Asia Minor are ethnically mixed. Turkish identity today is not based on genetic factors, one must understand that. So even if Onur is raised as a Turk then he is Turkish by identity. Who has pure Turkish blood, what is that?? Ottomans as the ruling class left their identity, this is normal. Ottoman Empire was a multi ethnic society where intermingiling has taken place. Just like how today Levantines call themselves Arabs though genetically they are not exactly the same as a Yemeni but do have Arab influence, the same can be said for Turks. That is what happens when a foreign ethnicity rules a land, people adapt to the rulers identity. Before the Turks people of Asia Minor and even the Leavnt identified as Romans but they were not completely Romans. The name of the strong survive.

stop trying to impose your ideology, we never said that Turks are completely central asians.
central asian Turks came and intermarried with anatolian people and it was a birth of new nation, the "anatolian Turks".
Turks were not only ruling class, but also villagers, nomads, warriors in anatolia. You need to read some history instead of these dienekes genetic articles. Please check who are your supporters in this thread? linet, manolo, padre .
Turkomans came from Khorasan with their tribes, families, women, herds, traditions, children, horses... They were not few elite rulers, but a folk of the anatolia.
and there were many arab, byzantine, persian, armenian historians describing them like ants.
people must understand that Turks will never deny their Turkic ancestry.
You can do whatever you want.
I would respect your opinion, but now you are trying to impose your ideology.
and even once, you claimed that erzurum islamicized by arabs... this is simply brainwashing and you are simply trying to minimize Turkish impact.

i bet you can't tell a single Oghuz tribe name without google search, because your knowledge of history is "0". 23 of the 24 oghuz tribes of the central asia moved to anatolia, and you are talking about ruling-elites... You can't even accept the Turks of 800-1000 years ago as "ethnicity" in anatolia, you see them as invaders. such a shame for Turkish citizen. i'm sorry for you.

[orangepulp]

I am not talking about pure Turkish, but till the ethnicity exist...a nationality is not only in the blood but also in the traditions and culture. As Greek my skin got goose bumbs even in the thought that some nation may not have connection to its ancestors, even if we are talking about the Turks...

See it in a different way, a Turk back then has married a Russian wife...of course he raise his kids as Turks and they have full Turkish beliefs and culture and mentality. Then those kids marry the kids of their neighbour who was married to a Bulgarian... but their kids too were brought up like Turks...
Whats the result? Many foreign blood coming in but the Turkic mentality is there. Turks didnt let their kids become nothing but Turks... imagine now the kids of those couples went at war and meet a Greek woman... what would be result? The kids will be 1/6 Turks but will be raised in full Turkish culture and will never think to be called anything else but Turks....
Even if Turks didnt mind their kids to have another blood they mind for their culture... and no matter what, they choosed this result...a strong in spirit Turkey even if there wasnt there the blood. So todays Turkey is the result of the wishes of the Turkic people.. so even in that sense, you are Turks...
Yes I understand what you mean. Like if you take a look at the Ottoman sultans all their wives were European women, Ottoman sultan married a greek woman then their son married a Bulgarian and so forth and so forth. Basically I feel that towards the end of the Ottoman reign the Ottoman family was genetically more European than Turkic lol. But that is very normal, as I said people have the tendency to identify with the ruling class. So in Ottoman times probably being an Ottoman (ruling class) was cool and these children rather idetify with their Turkish side. My aunt married an Irish American her kids identify with both sides, in my family we have no problem with idetifying with the other side if we are mixed ethnically. Also keep in mind that usually the father figure is dominating, so if the father is Turkish and Muslim children would be Turks. This rule is valid everywhere. I know Arabs that have Turkish mothers but they never call themselves Turks and identify with their Arab side. It is just known they have Turkish ancestry.
Look at Russian royal family, the czar married Alexandra a German princess but their children were identifying as Russians. Alexandra mother was the daughter of Queen Victoria of England but she identified with her German side.
Father figure is domianting.

[Linet]

You need to read some history instead of these dienekes genetic articles. Please check who are your supporters in this thread? linet, manolo, padre .


I support her when she is right...and genetics doesnt lie...
...I also supported you are a nation...so dont talk like if i am an enemy that wants your demise...

[Osprey]

Basically I feel that towards the end of the Ottoman reign the Ottoman family was genetically more European than Turkic lol.

why is that funny?

[Linet]

Also keep in mind that usually the father figure is dominating, so if the father is Turkish and Muslim children would be Turks. This rule is valid everywhere. I know Arabs that have Turkish mothers but they never call themselves Turks and identify with their Arab side. It is just known they have Turkish ancestry.

I agree, but Turkish women would never marry not Turks, they would be killed istantly by their people...
On the other hand Turks would have women from other countries and they could protect them not to be killed from their side.

[Su]

I know Arabs that have Turkish mothers but they never call themselves Turks and identify with their Arab side. It is just known they have Turkish ancestry.


^They probably dont live in Turkey but in an Arab country, that can influence them as well.

[Ushtari]

Turks, like many other people, live in denial. Its obvious they are descendants of Anatolian farmers. Why they want to associate themselves with Asian people i can not understand.

[Su]

I agree, but Turkish women would never marry not Turks, they would be killed istantly by their people...


I think you have mixed up Turkish with kurdish or another ethnicity :lol:

[Linet]

I think you have mixed up Turkish with kurdish or another ethnicity :lol:

Well, i know what was happening here... i dont know if things in Anatolia were different....

[Pecheneg]

Yes I understand what you mean. Like if you take a look at the Ottoman sultans all their wives were European women, Ottoman sultan married a greek woman then their son married a Bulgarian and so forth and so forth. Basically I feel that towards the end of the Ottoman reign the Ottoman family was genetically more European than Turkic lol. But that is very normal, as I said people have the tendency to identify with the ruling class. So in Ottoman times probably being an Ottoman (ruling class) was cool and these children rather idetify with their Turkish side. My aunt married an Irish American her kids identify with both sides, in my family we have no problem with idetifying with the other side if we are mixed ethnically. Also keep in mind that usually the father figure is dominating, so if the father is Turkish and Muslim children would be Turks. This rule is valid everywhere. I know Arabs that have Turkish mothers but they never call themselves Turks and identify with their Arab side. It is just known they have Turkish ancestry.
Look at Russian royal family, the czar married Alexandra a German princess but their children were identifying as Russians. Alexandra mother was the daugter of Queen Victoria of England but she identified with her German side.
Father figure is domianting.
OMG...Ottomans were just a family, stop calling the Turks as " few ruling elite class" because most of the Turkish nomads in anatolia were not elite rulers, but seemed by Ottomans as "warrior-warehouse".
But only one Turkoman tribe, the Ottomans took the lead that's all, and before them the Seljuks were ruling-tribe of the Turks.

[orangepulp]

I agree, but Turkish women would never marry not Turks, they would be killed istantly by their people...
On the other hand Turks would have women of other countries and they could protect them not to be killed from their side.

Well as Muslims we are allowed to marry any man of any ethnicty so long as he is Muslim. So if there has been no marriage between Turkish women and European men this could be the reason, difference of religion.

What do you mean about killing, I did not understand.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Dont worry guys..

Asian age is coming up..everyone will be more or less asian soon...end of all discussions:thumb001:

[Osprey]

Well as Muslims we are allowed to marry any man of any ethnicty so long as he is Muslim. So if there has been no marriage between Turkish women and European men this could be the reason, difference of religion.

European men are far more handsome. Turkish men fear that their women will all be snatched up.

[Su]

Well, i know what was happening here... i dont know if things in Anatolia were different....

Well you need to show us some news article proving your point.

I know certain non-Turkish people with Turkish citizenships got problems with these sort of cases, but these people are known for their backwardness anyway, nothing new. But your claim about Turkish women sounds rather strange.

[Linet]

...Oh Siberian sista :baby2000:...
I even dedicated a song to you but you ignored it...:cry:

[Pecheneg]

Turks, like many other people, live in denial. Its obvious they are descendants of Anatolian farmers. Why they want to associate themselves with Asian people i can not understand.
because we are not! . you stupid troll. Most people in anatolia are originally from caucasus, khorasan, balkan, and even crete island.
and read some history idiot, Turkoman population of anatolia was extremely high and even most historians documented it.
your shiptar relatives in Turkey are so calm, but you albish twats of TA are so agressive because of some historical events, like conquest&islamicization of albania by Turks.

[Linet]

Well you need to show us some news article proving your point.

I know certain non-Turkish people with Turkish citizenships got problems with these sort of cases, but these people are knows for their backwardness anyway, nothing new. But your claim about Turkish women sounds rather strange.

I m sorry, i know it from history not from internet...so i need time to search for an article that would mention that...
But even logic is in my side...want it or not women are like a trophy.. Turks wouldnt give their girls to the people they had conquored, would they?
Also as Orange said your girls cant marry non muslim men, Greeks are christian Orthodox. Even if in some rare case a greek man changed his religion to become muslim for the girl...trust me, he had to be under Turkish protection, or else he wouldnt have time to have kids... Even if your side was civilised enough to let them live, our side would chop that man up...

[Ushtari]

because we are not you stupid troll. Most people in anatolia are originally from caucasus, khorasan, balkan, caucasus and even crete island.
and read some history idiot, Turkoman population of anatolia was extremely high and even most historians documented it.
your shiptar relatives in Turkey are so calm, but you albish twats of TA are so agressive because of some historical events, like conquest of albania by Turks.
Your genetics suggest you are long lost Anatolians.

[orangepulp]

European men are far more handsome. Turkish men fear that their women will all be snatched up.

Sorry but Turkish women are not that shallow to only consider looks that will disappear as soon as they get to their 40's

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Turks, like many other people, live in denial. Its obvious they are descendants of Anatolian farmers. Why they want to associate themselves with Asian people i can not understand.
nope ducky

We took your bodies as war loots and installed our Turkic culture ,chipped them,registered and owned them..
so how do you like it..

and after 100 years later your grandchildren will be pekinese ducky...quack quack -troll duck

[Pecheneg]

Your genetics suggest you are long lost Anatolians.

because they compare us with isolated siberian tribes instead of central asian Turkmens you idiot. Turkmens are only x2 times more asian than us.
and now stupid, go and create some fantastic illyrian fairy tale threads.
also we have the same amount of asian admixture with most western Turkic people like karachay, balkar, kumyk, azerbaijan, qashqai etc.

[orangepulp]

OMG...Ottomans were just a family, stop calling the Turks as " few ruling elite class" because most of the Turkish nomads in anatolia were not elite rulers, but seemed by Ottomans as "warrior-warehouse".
But only one Turkoman tribe, the Ottomans took the lead that's all, and before them the Seljuks were ruling-tribe of the Turks.

Ottoman was just an example and I dont think the Turks were few but many different ethnicties lived in Asia Minor.

[Linet]

Ottoman was just an example and I dont think the Turks were few but many different ethnicties lived in Asia Minor.

:eyes...
...Ok, Pech :faint2: will have a stroke...3...2...1 :rofl::pound:

[Pecheneg]

:eyes...
...Ok, Pech :faint2: will have a stroke...3...2...1 :rofl::pound:
i agree with her, there were many ethnicities in anatolia and the Turks were huge one.

[Linet]

i agree with her, there were many ethnicities in anatolia and the Turks were huge one.

:grumpy:...no fun :cry2:...cruel world :cry:

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Pecheneg dont waste your energy ..they turned this thread into kindergarden already

ducks and Linet's cyber dolls everywhere..soon we may have baloon men or clowns too

[Pecheneg]

Pecheneg dont waste your energy ..they turned this thread into kindergarden already

ducks and Linet's cyber dolls everywhere..soon we may have baloon men or clowns too
yea it's very well known loser ritual to take their revenges with keyboards.

[Linet]

...Oh thats how you get my attitude?...trying to spoil your thread?
...oh sorry then that i bothered you...

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

i m not in a game mood dear..
why don't you drink your milk and take a nap?

[orangepulp]

stop trying to impose your ideology, we never said that Turks are completely central asians.
central asian Turks came and intermarried with anatolian people and it was a birth of new nation, the "anatolian Turks".
Turks were not only ruling class, but also villagers, nomads, warriors in anatolia. You need to read some history instead of these dienekes genetic articles. Please check who are your supporters in this thread? linet, manolo, padre .
Turkomans came from Khorasan with their tribes, families, women, herds, traditions, children, horses... They were not few elite rulers, but a folk of the anatolia.
and there were many arab, byzantine, persian, armenian historians describing them like ants.
people must understand that Turks will never deny their Turkic ancestry.
You can do whatever you want.
I would respect your opinion, but now you are trying to impose your ideology.
and even once, you claimed that erzurum islamicized by arabs... this is simply brainwashing and you are simply trying to minimize Turkish impact.

i bet you can't tell a single Oghuz tribe name without google search, because your knowledge of history is "0". 23 of the 24 oghuz tribes of the central asia moved to anatolia, and you are talking about ruling-elites... You can't even accept the Turks of 800-1000 years ago as "ethnicity" in anatolia, you see them as invaders. such a shame for Turkish citizen. i'm sorry for you.

I am not trying to impose my ideologies on anyone, I am just posting my views.

Did I ever say we should deny our Turkic ancestry??? I never said such a thing. Since the beginning I have been saying that todays Turks are genetically mixed. some are more Turkic, some are less, some are not at all. Now if an Anatolian Turks scores 0 Turkic genes is that person not a Turk??

When I say Turks were the ruling class I don't mean it literally that all Turks were elite rulers. I mean that Turks conquered Anatolia and they became the rulers of Asia Minor, of course they were villagers, nomadic people, warriors etc but even though they are from the ethnicity of the ruling class.

[Azalea]

And the Turkic obsession you people have is even more sickening. You guys are always like Turkic this, Turkic that, seriously enough.

You are delusional, I swear. What Turkic obsession are you even talking about? Why is it that whenever someone is having a discussion with you, you twist around the subject and drag totally irrelevant things to the discussion? And even though I haven't mentioned the term Turkic ones in this discussion: We are Turkish thus Turkic. Remember that.


Being I mean I am sure even the first Ottoman Turks were not that Turkic obsessed. Whats wrong with connecting to my Anatolian side. Is it shameful to be Anatolian?? We are genetically more preTurkic and you think I should ignore that??

Oh please, don't play the victim. It's so pathethic. I have never said anything about you personally connecting to your Anatolian side or whatever. You may as well start calling yourself an Armenian, Georgian, or Anatolian instead of Turkish. I couldn't care less. The thing I do care about is you splitting Turks up into groups and treating them as second class citizens thinking that you have privilages because of your DNA. Well guess what, you don't. Turkey is called Turkey for a reason. It's the land of the Turks. Not the land of the 'people who have native DNA', whatever that even means. Point is, your DNA gives you as much privilages as it gives Armenians, Greeks, Georgians, Laz, Arabs etc.

Also, you keep saying that Turks are genetically mostly pre-Turkic as if I ever claimed the contrary. You also act as if we are some sort of exception in Anatolia (or the Balkans) while not one of the ethnic groups in Anatolia and around is descandant from one urheimat.


Yes, I left Turkey because I have no freedom but it doesnt mean I never visit Turkey or I will never come back. Besides these days Turkey is a bit more tolerant towards religious people due to the current party. Also you have recognised Turks wrong, many Turks are religious and even if not religious they are Muslims that are not against Islam just like 5aday. The government maybe secular but the people are not.Anti Islamic Turks are a minority. Islam was forcefully taken away from Turks. Why do you think there are restriction on women with hijab, so that less women would wear the head scarf. There was even a rule that you can't go to Quran schools after a certain age!! What the hell is that! Why so many restrictions?? Just so they can take Islam away from the people.

Ehm..you left Turkey for religious reasons while Onur is still living There. Onur, no matter how rude he was, never said that you should leave Turkey because you are muslim. He said that you should leave Turkey because of your anti-secularist, pro-sharia mentality. And like Altay already pointed out a few weeks ago; there is a difference in being a muslim or even practicing Islam yet being secular politically. Just because you are not pro-CHP, it doesn't mean that you are automatically pro-sharia. Learn the difference.

Also, do not put words in my mouth. I never said that most Turks are anti-Islam. As a matter or fact, I said that Onur is an extremist and that he is underestimating the Islamic influence in Turkey. Yet, you are not better and act as if the majority of the Turks is waiting for Turkey to turn into a Sharia state. Which is obviously totally false.


Onur doesnt have problem with Turks religion, yea right. He has been constantly degrading and insulting Islam and denying any Islamic influence in our culture. Onur is an anti-Islamic secular atheist. I would never bring up such Balkan and Anatolian issue if he never disrespected religious Turkish Muslims in the first place. He tells me to leave my land yet you say nothing to him. Obviously I dont even care who lives in Turkey but if he is telling me to leave my land because I am a Muslim then it is actually he who should leave in the first place because he originates from the Balkans, at least I know all my ancestors to be from Turkish soil. Who the hell are Arabs that you guys keep bringing up Arabs, I said I am a Muslim and Arab does not mean Islam. I follow the Islamic culture and for me being a Muslim is more important than being a Turk.In fact I am not a freaking nationalist like you people nor do I discriminate people cause of what they believe in, I dont mind Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Arabs, Jews, Christians living in my land, I dont care if I have other ancestry other than Turkic ancestry. I actually dont care for all this Turkish or whatever identity. Nationalism is what brought down fall of the Ottoman Empire, it is what devided us, before all etnicities used to live in peace within Ottoman soil. My identity is Islam and I attack only when I am attacked first. I am not gonna sit and watch this hypocrite attack Islam and religious Turkish Muslims, you can do that but I will not!

Yea his ancestors fought, big probably Muslim ancestors. Muslim Turks fought for these lands, don't forget that. Turks are not only Turks but Muslims. If defending Turkism and the Turkish identity is okay then so is defending our beliefs.!

There is so much BS and crying in this part that I won't even bother replyig to every 'argument'. I will reply globally: Here is the thing: I don't care about your religious fights, I disagree with both of you. Like I said before: both of you are extremist in my opinion. Yet, you are the one who has managed to drag genetica into a Islam discussion! The fuck orangepulp, do you have any idea how racist you are? You say that you are defending your religion but your biggest argument is that your DNA is 'native'? I can't grasp my mind around your arguments. You keep saying that we are nationalists, that you don't mind Greeks, Armenians, Christians and what freaking more living in Turkey (as if we said something different) but you treat Onur and all Balkan Turks (you have been attacking a lot of people just to insult Onur, do you realise that?) as second class citizens because their DNA is not native.. while being Turkish is not even about DNA, let alone 'Anatolian' DNA.

You have such twisted logics and contradict yourself so many times that it's very hard to discuss with you.

Also, I don't care what your reply will be. I already know what you'll write. But just saying that I probably won't reply back.

[orangepulp]

@ Ashina:


I don't care if you don't write back but I am replying back anyway.

What are you talking about?? When did I ever differentiate a Turk cause of their DNA?? Are you crazy????? I have never had any problem with most the Turkish users except for the ones who are posting anti-Islamic stuff nor did I ever think having native genes was superior. Its not like my results are so different than other Turks!!!!And you are talking as if I don't have Turkic genes and that I deny it. On ABF I get along with most Turks even annihilus though he is not Muslim and even Kyte was mature and not Muslim hater though also he was not Muslim himself. At least Kyte's debates were more civil, even Altay was civil. Onur keeps claiming bizarre stuff such as even our neghibors are Turkic!!! Then he says some Balkan guys results seem more Turkish than sometimesyes' results.He is posting so much inconsistencies and is denying genetic proof, it looks stupid. Thats why I keep posting about the preTurkic part and it seems as if I am obsessed about it. He is exaggerating the Turkic to an extant that even Greeks and Armenians are genetically Turk according to him and thats why Anatolian Turks cluster with them!!

So what if I am anti-secular because of my views, now I cannot live in Turkey cause of my views??? I am not saying everyone should be Islamic or Muslim but I am against those who are anti-Islamic. I have many atheist's in my family but none of them are anti Islam and dont attack people because they are very religous, nor do they deny the Islamic influence in our culture. My attack on Onur is individually and not general. If he attacks me cause I am a religous anti-secular Turk and I dont agree with Turkey's secularism and that I should leave then I am saying if there is someone to leave it is him, I am just telling him that he should go back to where he came from. He has been attacking a good percentage of religous Turks but no one takes that into consideration.
Yes, I dont mind any race living in Turkey as long as they live in peace. I did not mean to cause differentiation between Turks but the likes of Onur are full of hatred towards those who are religious and I can't tolerat this. He is the divider.

[Azalea]

Ok Orangepulp, nice story but you didn't really get my point. Too bad.

[orangepulp]

I got your point, you are saying I am dividing Turks because I am telling him he should go back just because he is an immigrant and I am claiming to be native. My attack was to him, not to other Balkan Turks or any other Turks. I don't differentiate between Turks, only those Turks who are against Islam and our Islamic history.

[Onur]

Onur, no matter how rude he was, never said that you should leave Turkey because you are muslim. He said that you should leave Turkey because of your anti-secularist, pro-sharia mentality.
Ashina, you are right but i can paraphrase what i said to her again;
I recommended her to stay in middle-east and don't come back to Turkey because she is clearly against our secular regime. I don't wanna deal with people like her because we have more than enough people like him here already.

I am living in Turkey because i don't have any problem with my country unlike her. She is the one who has problem with Turkey, so it`s better for us and better for her to remain wherever she is and don't come back.


The fuck orangepulp, do you have any idea how racist you are? You say that you are defending your religion but your biggest argument is that your DNA is 'native'?

you treat Onur and all Balkan Turks (you have been attacking a lot of people just to insult Onur, do you realise that?) as second class citizens because their DNA is not native.. while being Turkish is not even about DNA, let alone 'Anatolian' DNA.
I agree to you 100%.

I am the one who keep saying that the DNA is not important and what matters is the ideas and person`s mindset. I am the one who tries to embrace anyone. On the other hand, she talks about DNA, some numbers, percentages of idiotic ethnicity calculators and boasts herself like a "native Anatolian" while accusing me being "less Turkish" in Anatolia than her.

BUT she claims that she is a muslim, supposedly embracing everyone but i am the so-called extremist nationalist (!!!) YET she cant even embrace a Turk who migrated to Turkey from Macedonia.


I am telling you, these islamic freaks like her are dangerous in every way. They are just damaging everything they touch. Thats exactly why i don't want them here.

[Su]

I am the one who keep saying that the DNA is not important and what matters is the ideas and person`s mindset. I am the one who tries to embrace anyone. On the other hand, she talks about DNA, some numbers, percentages of idiotic ethnicity calculators and boasts herself like a "native Anatolian" while accusing me being "less Turkish" in Anatolia than her.

BUT she claims that she is a muslim, supposedly embracing everyone but i am the so-called extremist nationalist (!!!) YET she cant even embrace a Turk who migrated to Turkey from Macedonia.


I am telling you, these islamic freaks like her are dangerous in every way. They are just damaging everything they touch. Thats exactly why i don't want them here.

No, what you're not understanding is, you upset Orangepulp and she reacted.
And it's true Orangepulp is not very nationalist. Have you ever seen her bashing kurds? Nope, she doesnt care. But you bashed them last time and Ashina defended them; after all you're more nationalist than Orangepulp :wink

[Onur]

He is exaggerating the Turkic to an extant that even Greeks and Armenians are genetically Turk according to him and thats why Anatolian Turks cluster with them!!
I have never said that. I just said that you are completely wrong about the one-way contribution of Armenian, Greek DNA to the Turkish population. I said that this happened in both ways. We have their DNA as much as they have ours.

You keep denying this and claiming that only Turks absorbed native Anatolian DNA while they supposedly didn't absorb any Turkish DNA at all.

You don't know shit about our history here but you keep claiming this because of some false ethnicity calculator results and the comments you read from pan-hellenic Dienekes`s website.



No, what you're not understanding is, you upset Orangepulp and she reacted.
And it's true Orangepulp is not very nationalist. Have you ever seen her bashing kurds? Nope, she doesnt care. But you bashed them last time and Ashina defended them; after all you're more nationalist than Orangepulp :wink
She might claim that she is a muslim but she is separating and classifying people according to their DNA and she keeps dividing Turkish people according to some percentages in false ethnicity calculators.

According to me, she is being a racist who relies on some DNA numbers and imaginary blood connections. She maybe doesn't aware of this but thats what she does.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

May be Orengepulp doesn't know but we Turks respect and support eachother whether they are muslim or not..All around the world, there are still shamanist Turks,Buddhist Turks,Christian Turks even very rare but Karaimist- Judaist Turks..
Things are not same in middleast,For instance Jews and Arabs are both semites but they are VERY hostile to eachother..We dont have such problem with Mongols they are not Muslim..offtopic may be but i need to point that too

[orangepulp]

Ashina, you are right but i can paraphrase what i said to her again;
I recommended her to stay in middle-east and don't come back to Turkey because she is clearly against our secular regime. I don't wanna deal with people like her because we have more than enough people like him here already.

I am living in Turkey because i don't have any problem with my country unlike her. She is the one who has problem with Turkey, so it`s better for us and better for her to remain wherever she is and don't come back.


I agree to you 100%.

I am the one who keep saying that the DNA is not important and what matters is the ideas and person`s mindset. I am the one who tries to embrace anyone. On the other hand, she talks about DNA, some numbers, percentages of idiotic ethnicity calculators and boasts herself like a "native Anatolian" while accusing me being "less Turkish" in Anatolia than her.

BUT she claims that she is a muslim, supposedly embracing everyone but i am the so-called extremist nationalist (!!!) YET she cant even embrace a Turk who migrated to Turkey from Macedonia.


I am telling you, these islamic freaks like her are dangerous in every way. They are just damaging everything they touch. Thats exactly why i don't want them here.
Come on even before these Turkish discussions you posted crap on a thread I made about the veil and it had nothing to do about Turks. From the start you had hatred. I am sure you are of those Turks that make fun of girls that wear the hijab. You bash us religious Turks and now you want me to accept you!!! Aren't you smart. I boast around about being native, wtf!! You come and post crap on my DNA thread what do you expect?? If I say I have more preTurkic blood it was on my DNA thread and was only said only for genetic reason which does not influence my identity. You are the one saying that even our neighbors are Turkic, I am against this, you make Turkish identity based on genetics. I say that even though some Turks may not have significant Turkic genes they are still Turks today. You come up with ''how do we now our neighbors dont have Turkic genes''. You are basing Turkish nationality on genetics, not me.

I have problem with the ruling system but it doesn't mean I have problem with my people. Many unfair things are going on in Turkish government, my rights are limited and you want me to accept this. What is wrong with you?? If my rights were fulfilled I would not open my mouth. Some secular state Turkey is, secularism doesn't mean you should limit peoples religious freedom.

[Padre Organtino]

On topic: Pre-Turkic Anatolian and modern Turkmens are not very good proxy for those Oghuz and Seljuk tribes IMO.

[Pecheneg]

On topic: Pre-Turkic Anatolian and modern Turkmens are not very good proxy for those Oghuz and Seljuk tribes IMO.

why? Turkmen people continued their nomadic lifestyle until 20th century and most of their neigbours were Turkic people like Kazakhs, Uzbeks..
If there are some foreign admixture among them, it happened during the Seljuk times or even before it.

[orangepulp]

I have never said that. I just said that you are completely wrong about the one-way contribution of Armenian, Greek DNA to the Turkish population. I said that this happened in both ways. We have their DNA as much as they have ours.

You keep denying this and claiming that only Turks absorbed native Anatolian DNA while they supposedly didn't absorb any Turkish DNA at all.
What the hell are you talking about? The Turks mixed with the people who were already living in Asia Minor. Todays Greeks and Armenians did not intermingle with Turks, so how is it that the genetic contribution is double sided? We are a result of genetic assimilation with the Turks and the natives. You are in denial and don't even accept any genetic data and proof presented to you instead you are interpreting DNA to suite your agenda.
Do you think that a Turk would marry a Greek or an Armenian and the offspring would not be Muslim? If Turkic contribution was in Greeks and Armenians DNA, I am sure they would be Muslims today. Genetics supports my claim.

Natives who accepted Islam intermingled with the Turks and we are the result of that. Due to common belief mariages between Turks and natives was easier. Were it not for common belief assimilation wouldn't be that easy.


She might claim that she is a muslim but she is separating and classifying people according to their DNA and she keeps dividing Turkish people according to some percentages in false ethnicity calculators.

According to me, she is being a racist who relies on some DNA numbers and imaginary blood connections. She maybe doesn't aware of this but thats what she does

I am not seperating anybody because of their DNA, I am just pointing out todays Turks are mixed. Having none,less, or more Turkc is not gonna change a Turks identity. You on the other hand are actually the one who is obsessed with the DNA of the Turks. You are the one denying preTurkic influence, you are the one who is genetically Turkifying everyone and think that our neghibors carry Turkic DNA too. I am not minimizing the genetic Turkic influence but you are totally exaggerating it. If today a Turk knows himself to be a Turk then he is a Turk and genetics will not change that.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

So people who migrated to Anatolia were pure ?
Even then ,people who moved to Central Asia from Siberia were pure?
Even then ,people ,first Turks were pure ? Who were they?...
When ,in which period of time pure people were living in euroasian steppes?
How people even imagine nomadic people will avoid mixing and make family trees ,wander around with them..pick people according to their race?
Steps were like an ocean, tribes were like ships ,they met eachother in the middle of nowhere ,helped eacother ,traded,fought, getting married ,abducted brides..and raided to unknown lands ..

we are not a race ,we were folks with a culture and language, ..forced to mingle by nature in hostile climate and hard living conditions..We did not have walls ,castles hide behind limit ourselves with articficial nonsense ... It's an individualistic and less controlled life style ,people were free to chose their partners ,no such social control were pervaded nomads ,they were not controlled by anyone., they had no cultural upbringing to make concepts like race discrimination at that age ..They were animists in the first place.Do you think animism and racism can be in same culture?

we united people regardless of race and religion, that's how we made those big armies..raceism is foreign and weakens us.
This ksenophobia is not our social dynamic.it's yours..both european and middleastern obsession..

[Anatolian Eagle]

A mix of 1 and 2 most likely.

[Loki]

A mix of 1 and 2 most likely.

I agree!

[Loki]

@ orangepulp and SometimesYes:

If you think that you are mostly Middle Eastern - do you agree then that Kurds and Anatolian Turks look exactly the same? Kurds are proper ME'ers, NOT Anatolian Turks!

[Anatolian Eagle]

May be Orengepulp doesn't know but we Turks respect and support eachother whether they are muslim or not..All around the world, there are still shamanist Turks,Buddhist Turks,Christian Turks even very rare but Karaimist- Judaist Turks..
Things are not same in middleast,For instance Jews and Arabs are both semites but they are VERY hostile to eachother..We dont have such problem with Mongols they are not Muslim..offtopic may be but i need to point that too

I totally agree with the above post...

Turkic Christians: Gagauz (most closest to us), the Chuvash, Khakass people, Dolgans and some Yakuts and Altaians
Turkic Jews: Crimean Karaites, Krymchaks.

I'm not even counting those who keep their traditional Turkic religion. ;)

I think Turkish people need to get to know more about them.

[Pecheneg]

What the hell are you talking about? The Turks mixed with the people who were already living in Asia Minor. Todays Greeks and Armenians did not intermingle with Turks, so how is it that the genetic contribution is double sided? We are a result of genetic assimilation with the Turks and the natives. You are in denial and don't even accept any genetic data and proof presented to you instead you are interpreting DNA to suite your agenda.
Do you think that a Turk would marry a Greek or an Armenian and the offspring would not be Muslim? If Turkic contribution was in Greeks and Armenians DNA, I am sure they would be Muslims today. Genetics supports my claim.

Natives who accepted Islam intermingled with the Turks and we are the result of that. Due to common belief mariages between Turks and natives was easier. Were it not for common belief assimilation wouldn't be that easy.



I am not seperating anybody because of their DNA, I am just pointing out todays Turks are mixed. Having none,less, or more Turkc is not gonna change a Turks identity. You on the other hand are actually the one who is obsessed with the DNA of the Turks. You are the one denying preTurkic influence, you are the one who is genetically Turkifying everyone and think that our neghibors carry Turkic DNA too. I am not minimizing the genetic Turkic influence but you are totally exaggerating it. If today a Turk knows himself to be a Turk then he is a Turk and genetics will not change that.
No one denying the pre-Turkic influnce.
But you are really obsessed with genetic studies.
in these researches;
Kumyks, Karachay, Balkar cluster with adygei
Turks cluster with georgian/adygei
Nogai cluster wih chechens
Qashqai cluster with iranians
Turkmens cluster with Tajik-eastern iranians
Gagauz cluster with balkan populations
Yakuts cluster with non-Turkic native siberian populations
Chuvash cluster with russians
Bla bla bla...
isn't it so obvious that Turkic peoples was not a single race? Turks were not settled/isolated peoples, they already mixed with many different people in central asia, transoxania, khorasan, middle east before their migration to anatolia. so it's nonsense to search for "Turkic" genes.
Even different Turkic tribes had different physical appearances, Kyrgyz described as red-haired, Kuman-Kypchaks were blonde, there were quite asian Turkic tribes also...
These so-called "Turkic genes" lineage -N,C,Q- are very little in most Turkic peoples.
So your geneticists cannot estimate the Turkic input with researches.

and about your "native anatolian obsession"
Seljuk Turks were not the only people, who migrated to anatolia, they also brought many persians-afghans-tajiks (mevlana celaleddin rumi was one of them). Khwarazm Shahs brought Zaza (iranic) people to eastern anatolia. Mongol invasion brought some mongol tribes (Kara Tatars) to central anatolia. Ottomans brought sunni-Kurdish tribes to eastern anatolia, because of shia-sunni war between Safavids and Ottomans.... and huge migrations from Caucasia, Balkans, Crimea in 19th & 20th centuries.
Here, some Turkish sub-groups
"Avşar, Yörük, Manav, Tahtacı, Tatar, Nogay, Cerit, Karapapak, Terekeme, , Azeri, Harzem, Çepni, Kırımçak, Karaçay, Balkar,Yıva, Begitli, Büğdüz, Bayat,Yazır, Eymür, Karabölük,Alkaevli, İğdir, Üreğir, Ulayundluğ,Tüger, Çavuldur, Çarukluğ, Kumuk, Karakalpak, Uygur, Ahıska,Gagavuz, Salurlu, Yerli, Pallık, Aydınlı ,Abdal, Üçok, Sıraç, Nalcı, Çaylak, Teber, Beydili, Barak, Karabağlı, Şaman, Şamlı, Torbeş, Dodurga, Bayındır, Kınık, Ortakçı, Amuca, Bedrettinli, Karamanlı, Kırım Tatarı, Kazan Tatarı, Başkırt, Karakeçili,Karanebili, Çiğitli, Sarıkeçili,Torlak,Kızılbaş, Peçenek, Çıtak, Eybek, Sancaklı, Dobrucalı,Kıbrıslı "
I'm not denying the pre-Turkic anatolian blood, but pre-Turkic anatolian heritage is not so dominant in today's Turkish population. You can believe whatever you want, but don't try to impose your native anatolian theory, you already mentioned your opinion, otherwise you sound like a broken record.

map of the Turkic peoples and their locations. Do you really think all these people may belong to the same race?
http://i50.tinypic.com/2czz11.jpg

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

I totally agree with the above post...

Turkic Christians: Gagauz (most closest to us), the Chuvash, Khakass people, Dolgans and some Yakuts and Altaians
Turkic Jews: Crimean Karaites, Krymchaks.

I'm not even counting those who keep their traditional Turkic religion. ;)

I think Turkish people need to get to know more about them.



We even have a university branch for Turkic Dialects an Ankara University ,Language ,Geography and History faculty with proffessors from Yakut,Tuvan,Khakas,Uygur,Kırgız,Kazak,Azerbeycan,G agauz,..
and more..link:http://turklehceleri.humanity.ankara.edu.tr/programlar.htm

later edit: Now there is another Çagdas Türk Lehceleri has opened at in Cukurova university too

[Loki]

Odin was quite possibly a Turk, or ancestral to Turks (his people):

VZJ1-cIAYMc

[Onur]

Todays Greeks and Armenians did not intermingle with Turks, so how is it that the genetic contribution is double sided? We are a result of genetic assimilation with the Turks and the natives.
How you know that? Your only proof is your false ethnicity calculators who regards Turkic peoples as some kind of isolated Amazon tribe who can be classified with N,C,Q h-groups.


Do you think that a Turk would marry a Greek or an Armenian and the offspring would not be Muslim? If Turkic contribution was in Greeks and Armenians DNA, I am sure they would be Muslims today. Genetics supports my claim.
Your biased religious mind prevents you to comprehend this. We lived together with Anatolian christians, side by side for 600-900 years but you idiotically believe that gene flow was one sided only due to your religious dogmas.

First of all, you don't need to marry with someone to have a child.

Second of all, not all Turks were muslims, just read Turk1071`s post. He even forgot the biggest christian Turkish group in Anatolia, the Karamanlılar (karamanlides). They were around ~400.000 people in 1923. If you don't believe that, i can prove it to you from 14-15th century Byzantine records and travel notes of western Europeans from 16-17th century about the Turkishness of Karamanli christians or the pure Turkish bibles published by Istanbul patriarchy

Btw Turk1071 also forgot the christian Tatars of Crimea and Blacksea, namely Urums. If you dont believe, I can prove the Turkishness of these christians from the 14th century travelers.

Do you know where these people lives in today? Both ~400.000 Karamanlides and ~70.000 christian Tatars migrated to Greece and probably they think themselves as super duper hellenes now.



we are not a race ,we were folks with a culture and language, ..forced to mingle by nature in hostile climate and hard living conditions..We did not have walls ,castles hide behind limit ourselves with articficial nonsense ... It's an individualistic and less controlled life style ,people were free to chose their partners ,no such social control were pervaded nomads ,they were not controlled by anyone., they had no cultural upbringing to make concepts like race discrimination at that age ..They were animists in the first place.Do you think animism and racism can be in same culture?
It`s useless to remind these to her Siberian Cold Breeze. She thinks like we have born with islam and we were just isolated barbarian tribe, supposedly unknown and unimportant before islam.

[Onur]

Odin was quite possibly a Turk, or ancestral to Turks (his people):
OMG, Loki became a pan-Turkist :D

Btw, Swedish scholars themselves proposed this at first, about the possibility of Odin being a Turk or proto-Turk because the myths of Odin have same elements with early Turkic myths like Tree of life concept, animism&naturalism, runes etc.

Loki, Scandinavian forumers will enrage so hard and they will bash you for that, haha :)

[Loki]

Loki, Scandinavian forumers will enrage so hard and they will bash you for that, haha :)

They already do :p (Pallantides)

BUT I am not saying all Scandinavians or Germanic gods come from Azerbaijan - just Odin. Scandinavian ethnogenesis already occurred long before that. Odin just enhanced their religion.

[Peyrol]

Dont worry guys..

Asian age is coming up..everyone will be more or less asian soon...end of all discussions:thumb001:

Approved :thumb001: :D

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_wmlM3MVWnQ/TdgjrvUfrtI/AAAAAAAACKY/33RhHlolwkw/s1600/nursultan-nazarbayev.jpg

[Su]

@ orangepulp and SometimesYes:

If you think that you are mostly Middle Eastern - do you agree then that Kurds and Anatolian Turks look exactly the same?
Well...Generally speaking I am not a big fan of Kurds, although I do acknowledge that there are also educated, pro-Turkish and anti-terror nice Kurds out there, I never bad mouth these sort of Kurds...Loki check the following thread I did when I was an active user at ABF:

Who are kiros? (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=30466) => Just click on the blue highlighted sentence.

Now back to your original question (I know I am not a beauty queen but an average looking Turk, so I am not going to be nasty and I will keep it more "professional"):

I do believe all in all Kurds have got their own look that is different than us. For some reason Turks have got many different type of looks while Kurds tend to have usually Iranid / Armenoid so that you straight now they are Kurds.

But there are also Turks who look Kurdish or the opposite side Kurds who Turkish, so after all there is an overlap regarding our looks. But the overlap is rather minor.

This is what I discuss yesterday with Onur, I will just copy and paste and then you can see the overlaps with Turks and Kurds:


And now check these Kurdish politicians:

Emine Aydin, to me she looks Kurdish and she's Kurdish indeed:

http://www.kenthaber.com/Resimler/2009/06/02/893fcf62-7f1b-43bc-bd43-2a77e687903f.jpg

Hatip Dicle, he looks Turkish to me, but he's Kurdish:
http://www.haberler.com/haber-resimleri/448/hatip-dicle-dosyasi-aihm-e-gidiyor-2851448_1952_o.jpg

Nursel Aydogan, she looks Turkish to me, but she's Kurdish:

http://www.haberler.com/haber-resimleri/833/bdp-milletvekili-nursel-aydogan-aciklamasi-3238833_9127_o.jpg


Altan Tan, he looks Turkish to me, but he's Kurdish:

http://www.babelio.com/users/AVT_Altan-Tan_4569.jpeg

Serafettin Elci, he looks Kurdish and he's Kurdish:
http://www.sondakikahaberleri.info.tr/images/haberresim/56403-serafettin-elci-en-uygun-cozum-federasyondur.jpg

Leyla Zana , she looks Kurdish to me and she's Kurdish:
http://img6.mynet.com/ha7/l/leyla-zana.jpg

Ahmet, he looks Kurdish and he's Kurdish:
http://www.odatv.com/images/2009_12/2009_12_22/ahmet-turkun-soyasi-neden-turk-2212091200_l.jpg

Selahattin Demirtas, he looks Kurdish to me and he's Kurdish indeed but I have seen Eastern Turks with that look as well :....
http://www.mansettekiler.com/images/news/5280.jpg

Pervin Buldan, to me she looks Kurdish and she's indeed Kurdish but I have seen Eastern Turks with her look :....
http://www.itusozluk.com/image/pervin-buldan_95718.jpg

Aysel Tugluk, she looks Kurdish and she's indeed Kurdish:
http://www.sondakika.com/haber-foto/846/aysel-tugluk-a-14-yil-hapis-soku-3700846_4405_b.jpg

Ayla Akat Ata, she looks Kurdish and she's indeed Kurdish:
http://im.haberturk.com/2012/05/03/739300_detay.jpg?1336051473





Kurds are proper ME'ers, NOT Anatolian Turks!

Also Kurds are Iranid people, so they cant be Anatolian, they probably are originating from Iran since their language is also similar to Persian.
But you see, Kurds have been living today's Anatolia for a very long time and they got also birth right to be called as Anatolian although they are and they usaully look Iranid.

Also you need to keep in mind, Middle East doesnt mean just ugly people, for example Lebanese girls are famous for being very pretty :p and also ME is a political name for the Western part of Asia and Middle Eastern countries do have many things in common.

PS: I see turkified Kurds as just normal Turks even if they might look different, that doesnt bother me since they are loyal to our country, so why should I discriminate them?

[Su]

Also LOL for the tags :D

[Loki]

OMG, Loki became a pan-Turkist :D


I'm not a pan-anything. I am just interested in history and the truth!

Btw the people from Gobustan were ancestral to many cultures and religions - even way before Turks existed.

[Loki]

Also you need to keep in mind, Middle East doesnt mean just ugly people, for example Lebanese girls are famous for being very pretty :p and also ME is a political name for the Western part of Asia and Middle Eastern countries do have many things in common.


I respect Middle Eastern people with ancient cultures: Assyrians, Persians, Iranians etc.

What I DO not accept is that you call West Asians middle easterners .. do you finally get it? :)

[Panopticon]

Odin was quite possibly a Turk, or ancestral to Turks (his people):

VZJ1-cIAYMc

Thor Heyerdahl took the most outlandish connections and turned them into theories. No actual scholar supports his theories and it seems like only he interpreted the "evidence" in that way. This is pseudoscience.

The cave paintings, etc. are from the Stone Age, long before anything related to IE people existed, long before Germanics came into existance and long before they came into Scandinavia. If there is any similarity, it is between Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers in what is modern Scandinavia and Azerbaijan. However, as mentioned, that has little to do with the ethnogenesis of either people.

Odin comes from proto-Germanic Wodanaz, not from the placename Udi. All of Heyerdahl's connection were pretty poor, imaginative and with little footing on planet Earth.

For the sake of argument, let's say there really was a connection: Odin was from Azerbaijan (something Heyerdahl himself turned against and went more northwards for afterwards). He still wouldn't have been Turkish because Odin is older than Turkish presence in Azerbaijan.

The name Azerbaijan derives from something completely else for the record, the name is Persian. Scythians and other Iranic people lived there before the Turkics.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Approved :thumb001: :D

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_wmlM3MVWnQ/TdgjrvUfrtI/AAAAAAAACKY/33RhHlolwkw/s1600/nursultan-nazarbayev.jpg

Hmm nice but that was not my point..I include India and East Asia too ..all the continent :)

[Loki]

I should have added a fourth option:

Hellenes

How could I forget that! :eek:

Ancient Hellenic expansion into Western Anatolia is indisputable, and different from all the other options.

[Loki]

Thor Heyerdahl took the most outlandish connections and turned them into theories. No actual scholar supports his theories and it seems like only he interpreted the "evidence" in that way. This is pseudoscience.

The cave paintings, etc. are from the Stone Age, long before anything related to IE people existed, long before Germanics came into existance and long before they came into Scandinavia. If there is any similarity, it is between Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers in what is modern Scandinavia and Azerbaijan. However, as mentioned, that has little to do with the ethnogenesis of either people.

Odin comes from proto-Germanic Wodanaz, not from the placename Udi. All of Heyerdahl's connection were pretty poor, imaginative and with little footing on planet Earth.

For the sake of argument, let's say there really was a connection: Odin was from Azerbaijan (something Heyerdahl himself turned against and went more northwards for afterwards). He still wouldn't have been Turkish because Odin is older than Turkish presence in Azerbaijan.

The name Azerbaijan derives from something completely else for the record, the name is Persian. Scythians and other Iranic people lived there before the Turkics.

Of course! I did not deny that.

I am a firm supporter of Heyerdahl's theory, until people can actually give me FACTS that disproves it ... not merely 'these scholars have rejected that'.

[Loki]

Also LOL for the tags :D

lol yes :p

[Onur]

I'm not a pan-anything. I am just interested in history and the truth!
I am just kiddin mate. It`s just if i would link to that video and talk about Turks, i would be automatically branded as "pan-turkist, turanist propagandist".


Btw who wrote these tags, lol;

stupid retards can't even type "onur", turkey is a middle eastern country, unur is ashamed to be a turk, unur is better than onur, unur is greek undercover agent, unur is my love, unur is speechless, unur should be exiled, who is unur lol

[Panopticon]

Of course! I did not deny that.

I am a firm supporter of Heyerdahl's theory, until people can actually give me FACTS that disproves it ... not merely 'these scholars have rejected that'.

You don't care for the fact that Heyerdahl wasn't a historian and that no one but Heyerdahl himself actually believed in this in the academic world? There's no support for his theory, his theory has been widely criticized and it's simply just a pseudotheory that no academic deems plausible. And I'm not even overdoing it by stating this. Norwegian academic circles criticized him and his works a lot. And rightly so.

Did you just simply reject my whole argument on the basis of the first paragraph? Did you read any further than that? Odin comes from proto-Germanic Wotanaz, not Udi. Æsir comes from proto-Germanic and PIE, it's a cognate to Sanskrit asura 'god' for example.

Many parts of his theories just don't fit with reality, some of the toponyms, etc. that he links to Norse mythological names came long after the Norse mythology itself, for instance those brought by Turks. He links Azof with æshoff (which could easily be explained in Norwegian), even though that name came 1000 years after the Æsirs of Heyerdahl. Moreover, you can't simply compare modern forms with ancient ones without looking at the development of the language.

All of this can be explained much better within the Germanic languages, why even make comparisons between unrelated languages like Turkish (which didn't exist in those parts at that time) and Caucasian languages with Germanic languages? The only thing that makes sense is the comparison between Indo-Iranian Ossetic and Germanic.

Lastly, I believe the burden of proof is on you. Your explanation is the least plausible, most outlandish and least accepted. Great claims need great proof. You have made yourself quite clear, however, you have a bias and you will stand by it no matter what, accepting only what you yourself want to accept. This is why you ask anyone to disprove Heyerdahl with facts, while ignoring that Heyerdahl doesn't rely on facts himself.

[Loki]

@ SometimesYes I am sorry, I didn't mean to appear rude, you are very nice :(

[Loki]

You don't care for the fact that Heyerdahl wasn't a historian and that no one but Heyerdahl himself actually believed in this in the academic world? There's no support for his theory, his theory has been widely criticized and it's simply just a pseudotheory that no academic deems plausible. And I'm not even overdoing it by stating this. Norwegian academic circles criticized him and his works a lot. And rightly so.

Did you just simply reject my whole argument on the basis of the first paragraph? Did you read any further than that? Odin comes from proto-Germanic Wotanaz, not Udi. Æsir comes from proto-Germanic and PIE, it's a cognate to Sanskrit asura 'god' for example.

Many parts of his theories just don't fit with reality, some of the toponyms, etc. that he links to Norse mythological names came long after the Norse mythology itself, for instance those brought by Turks. He links Azof with æshoff (which could easily be explained in Norwegian), even though that name came 1000 years after the Æsirs of Heyerdahl. Moreover, you can't simply compare modern forms with ancient ones without looking at the development of the language.

All of this can be explained much better within the Germanic languages, why even make comparisons between unrelated languages like Turkish (which didn't exist in those parts at that time) and Caucasian languages with Germanic languages? The only thing that makes sense is the comparison between Indo-Iranian Ossetic and Germanic.

Lastly, I believe the burden of proof is on you. Your explanation is the least plausible, most outlandish and least accepted. Great claims need great proof. You have made yourself quite clear, however, you have a bias and you will stand by it no matter what, accepting only what you yourself want to accept. This is why you ask anyone to disprove Heyerdahl with facts, while ignoring that Heyerdahl doesn't rely on facts himself.

I did care, and the burden of proof is on you, I am sorry.

Only Odin came from far regions and a handful, and he had a profound influence on Germanic religion.

You cannot compare modern ethnos to a small group who migrated northwards. Of course the vast majority of Scandinavian ancestry is local, where the Germanic people arrived from in their un-heimat (southern Sweden and Denmark). Add to that the Battle-Axe culture that came from the East, and you have the modern Germanic peoples.

I have no bias, only a search for knowledge, you have to believe me. To outright reject Heyerdahl is irresponsible.

He wasn't even the first - Swedish intellectuals came up first with that theory.

Compare I1 ancestry in Scandinavia with I1 in Balkans ...

[Loki]

stupid retards can't even type "onur", turkey is a middle eastern country, unur is ashamed to be a turk, unur is better than onur, unur is greek undercover agent, unur is my love, unur is speechless, unur should be exiled, who is unur lol

consider it as a badge of honour ;)

[Loki]

Mate, how old are you? I have investigated Germanic religion since I was a teenager. I am now 39. Some of my friends are scholars from the University of Oslo - the guys who set up SNPA. They have now moved onto other projects.

[Transhumanist]

Odin was quite possibly a Turk, or ancestral to Turks (his people)

Regarding a possible Anatolian (IE) nexus for Thor. From a post of mine over at ABF:

I am not very familiar with Norse and ancient Anatolian mythology. I am curious whether there is any relationship between the Hittite/Hurrian deity Teshub/Tarhun/Taru and Thor?


Teshub was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian Taru. His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun (with variant stem forms Tarhunt, Tarhuwant, Tarhunta), although this name is from the Hittite root *tarh- to defeat, conquer.[1][2][3]

He is depicted holding a triple thunderbolt and a weapon, usually an axe (often double-headed) or mace.


In Norse mythology, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, the protection of mankind, and also hallowing, healing, and fertility.


Thor, pictured in an Icelandic manuscript (1760)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UrH7RFsB1aU/ToYJp4OYoMI/AAAAAAAAAd0/K-OedhpXM5A/s1600/Thor+NKS+1867+4to+Icelandic+manuscript+1760+%25C3% 2593lafur+Brynj%25C3%25BAlfsson.jpg


Thor's Battle Against the Jötnar (1872) by Mårten Eskil Winge

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Thor.jpg/405px-Thor.jpg

[Incal]

European men are far more handsome. Turkish men fear that their women will all be snatched up.

Dunno about that, but Turkish men have always drooled over European women: From Ottoman time to the Gastarbeiter days.

[Panopticon]

I did care, and the burden of proof is on you, I am sorry.

Neither you, Thor Heyerdahl or anyone who stand for this theory has as yet proven anything. Your views are revisionist; therefore you should prove it.


Only Odin came from far regions and a handful, and he had a profound influence on Germanic religion.

Yet that's not the original claim. The original claim is that Odin along with other components belonging to Norse mythology, such as the Æsir, originates in Azerbaijan/Caucasus/Black Sea. The theory doesn't have anything to do with Germanics either, the theory is about the Norse specifically. There's just so many holes in this theory, f.e. that it is loosely threaded together and doesn't take anything previously known.

Thor Heyerdahl made this theory on the basis of several connections he saw. You can't choose which one of those connections are convenient and which aren't: you have to choose them all. Each connection is represented by a domino brick and if anyone pushes one domino brick over every domino brick will fall as well.

I wouldn't try making mythology into something real. Odin never actually existed, he's a figment of fiction that existed to explain the world from a pagan-religious pov. (The same can be said for Snorre's sage, it was never meant to be taken as facts, it was a story made for entertainment.) Etymologically, Odin comes from Wodanaz. (W)odan(az)->Odin- It probably comes from PG for fury 'odr' or knowledge 'woden'.

The theory that Odin comes from Azerbaijan is based on the fact that there is a people and a language called Udi. Thor Heyerdahl links Odin to Udi. This is of course completely wrong, Odin is a theonym with strong roots in both Germanic and IE. There's nothing that supports any connection between Udi and Odin.

None of Heyerdahl's onomastic explanations hold any water at all. It can all be explained through IE and Germanic with an actual meaning rather than just a similar sound and in a much better context. For example, some of the place names like Azov, which Heyerdahl wrongfully credited as being related to Ashof from Snorre's saga (which are not meant to be taken literally), Azov as a toponym is much younger than Norse mythology and Odin and it came with the Turks.


You cannot compare modern ethnos to a small group who migrated northwards. Of course the vast majority of Scandinavian ancestry is local, where the Germanic people arrived from in their un-heimat (southern Sweden and Denmark). Add to that the Battle-Axe culture that came from the East, and you have the modern Germanic peoples.

But there is no sign of that small group of Azerbaijani Odin.



I have no bias, only a search for knowledge, you have to believe me. To outright reject Heyerdahl is irresponsible.

Yet you take a firm stance based on ample evidence which you should be able to deduce as false by the simple use of critical thinking. This theory isn't logical and I don't believe your choice to stand by it no matter what is logical either; this choice was based on something completely other than logic.

That you wrongfully give the credit to Turks, who weren't in the region at the time and there is no reason to give credit to, is a proof of that.

I reject Heyerdahl on the basis of critical thinking and facts. I don't accept deny anything until I have considered the facts. Moreover, I dislike that pseudoscience gets any attention at all.



He wasn't even the first - Swedish intellectuals came up first with that theory.

Afaik, he was the first. That doesn't even matter though, I don't care about the person, I care about the idea.


Compare I1 ancestry in Scandinavia with I1 in Balkans ...

I1 is relatively sparse in the Balkans, I don't see what relation this has with this, however.

[Mortimer]

I think a mixture of 1,2,3 but with emphasis on Pre-Turkic Anatolian

[Loki]

@ Horten, I'm awaiting to hear from the Norwegian scholars to get back at me ... would be interesting to hear their opinion. They really are the foremost experts.

[Padre Organtino]

why? Turkmen people continued their nomadic lifestyle until 20th century and most of their neigbours were Turkic people like Kazakhs, Uzbeks..
If there are some foreign admixture among them, it happened during the Seljuk times or even before it.

Their immediate neighbours are Tadjiks. And they look more like Tadjik than Kyrgyz or Uzbek. Additionally they have too high South Asian autosomal component - had they constituted even 1/3 of modern Turkish gene pool you'd look darker than Kurds.

[StonyArabia]

Their immediate neighbours are Tadjiks. And they look more like Tadjik than Kyrgyz or Uzbek. Additionally they have too high South Asian autosomal component - had they constituted even 1/3 of modern Turkish gene pool you'd look darker than Kurds.

Interesting the Kurds are pretty South Asian admixed themselves, same with Iranians. This the reason they are dark, not because of Semitic/Arabian blood. The Iranians without South Asian admix often look Caucasus like.

[Loki]

Carolus Lindius (http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolus_Lundius): Swedish scholar from Uppsala first put forward this theory in 17th century already:

It says that goths from Sweden are same with Dacians from Romania and that Zamolxis is same with Odin.

[Loki]

http://i50.tinypic.com/3yntk.jpg

[Panopticon]

Carolus Lindius (http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolus_Lundius): Swedish scholar from Uppsala first put forward this theory in 17th century already:

It says that goths from Sweden are same with Dacians from Romania and that Zamolxis is same with Odin.

This has no relevance to Heyerdahl's theory. And I thought Odin was a Turk from Azerbaijan?

However, since you brought it up, Dacians weren't related to Germanics: they were related to or even a sub-group of Thracians. Perhaps also more distantly related to Illyrians, however, based on linguistic evidence, we know that the languages certainly weren't the same or in a family.

Zamolxis could be related to Odin in a wider sense, just as most European mythological beings can find correspondences in between each other.

[Kanuni]

Odin is just a mythological figure,it is disputed whether he existed as historical person letalone plotting theories what was his origin.

[Onur]

Carolus Lindius (http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolus_Lundius): Swedish scholar from Uppsala first put forward this theory in 17th century already:

It says that goths from Sweden are same with Dacians from Romania and that Zamolxis is same with Odin.
And this 18th century scholar was the first ever who said that Odin was a Turk and his people was Turks from the north of Blacksea and Azerbaijan;
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven_Lagerbring

But Lagerbring`s work was based on the writings of a 13th century historian;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson


I dont remember which one of the Lagerbring`s books was mentioning about the Turkish theory of Odin but i found this one instead;
ihre om svenska och turkiska språkens likhet
http://books.google.com/books/about/Bref_till.html?id=bnblMQAACAAJ

I think he was analyzing the similarities between old Turkic and old Germanic in that one.

[Panopticon]

Odin is just a mythological figure,it is disputed whether he existed as historical person letalone plotting theories what was his origin.

Indeed. To elucidate further on that, this theory bases itself on Snorre Sturlasons Edda Prose. He was a Christian and he wrote on the Norse gods as if they were real persons, by doing this he tried to give a historical explanation for their origins. Snorre ties the Norse gods to the Trojans; this is the equivalent of the Illiad and the Aenid, more so the latter. Thor Heyerdahl has managed to completely misinterpret it, while adding some of his own ideas.

Interestingly enough, something that also fits perfectly with my own opinion, is that Snorre explains that Woden, the Anglo-Saxon equal of Odin, is the original name for Odin. There was no question about that already, linguistics prove that. Both Odin and Woden comes from proto-Germanic Wodanaz. Yet this gives me even stronger basis.

[Loki]

Indeed. To elucidate further on that, this theory bases itself on Snorre Sturlasons Edda Prose. He was a Christian and he wrote on the Norse gods as if they were real persons, by doing this he tried to give a historical explanation for their origins. Snorre ties the Norse gods to the Trojans; this is the equivalent of the Illiad and the Aenid, more so the latter. Thor Heyerdahl has managed to completely misinterpret it, while adding some of his own ideas.

Interestingly enough, something that also fits perfectly with my own opinion, is that Snorre explains that Woden, the Anglo-Saxon equal of Odin, is the original name for Odin. There was no question about that already, linguistics prove that. Both Odin and Woden comes from proto-Germanic Wodanaz. Yet this gives me even stronger basis.

The Dutch view of Oden is also interesting :) (old Saxon and Frankish religion). The Franks actually performed a genocide against the Saxons who did not want to convert to Christianty.

And now ... I'm off to enjoy my very nice Iskender Kebab :D