Just how corrupt is Europe?

[The Lawspeaker]

Just how corrupt is Europe?

New report reveals corruption due to lack of transparency and accountability contributing to the eurozone's debt crisis.

Anti-corruption watchdog Transparency International (TI) says the close relationships between governments and big businesses are enabling corruption and fuelling the eurozone's debt crisis.

The warning comes in a new report that says poor governance contributed to financial and political scandals in almost every European country during 2011.

Greece, Italy and Spain are listed as among the most corrupt countries on the continent.

Political parties, businesses and the public sector are said to be the worst institutions for corruption, while electoral commissions and state auditors performed the best.

The report named Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain – the eurozone's most financially-troubled nations – as having deeply-rooted problems in their public administrations where officials are not accountable for their actions.

Political lobbying is also seen as a major cause for concern. Out of 25 European countries 19 have no regulations on political lobbying.

Party funding, with the influence of lobbyists on decision-makers remaining veiled in secrecy, is seen as ripe for abuse by big businesses. The report says Europe's political parties must do more to make funding transparent.

And lastly the report found high levels of corruption in public procurement, where politicians and business leaders use their influence to win contracts and sway policies.

The recommendations TI made to European legislators to counter rising corruption include implementing mandatory regulations on political party funding and a cap on donations; a mandatory register of lobbyists; passing comprehensive laws granting access to information.

In this show Inside Story asks: How corrupt is Europe?

Joining presenter Dareen Abughaida to discuss this are guests: Chandu Krishnan, the executive director of Transparency International UK; Meghnad Desai, an economist and a member of UK's House of Lords; and Carl Haglund, a member of the European parliament.

"Access to the Executive is being sold to businesses, clearly means that they can influence policy…The biggest danger is that businesses can find ways to pass a lot of money to people in government to get their way to bend the rules slightly in their favour."

Meghnad Desai, an economist and a member of UK's House of Lords

CORRUPTION SCANDALS IN EUROPE:


[B]In Italy, there is the famous corruption scandal of Silvio Berlusconi. The former Italian prime minister has been accused of embezzlement, tax fraud and false accounting along with attempting to bribe a judge. But he has always denied wrongdoing and has never been convicted.
In Spain, there is the corruption case involving Inaki Urdangarin, the son-in-law of Spain's King Juan Carlos. Urdangarin, the Duke of Palma, along with his business partner, are accused of diverting millions of euros of public money meant for a non-profit organisation they controlled to private offshore accounts. The duke has denied any wrongdoing in the case, which has been a rare embarrassment for the Spanish royal family.
In Britain, several members of parliament were convicted after it was revealed that they were misusing their expense accounts.



"At the end of the day corruption is a moral problem. For example, lobbyists will always meet politicians but the problem comes in when a lobbyist offers a favour and the politician returns that favour…there is a huge difference between promoting a cause and bribing someone."

- Carl Haglund, a member of the European parliament


"Corruption is not the only cause [for Europe's financial crisis but] it is an important contributing factor…In all these areas [mentioned in the report] there is room for making progress but governments need to act quickly before things get worse."

- Chandu Krishnan, the executive director of Transparency International UK


Source: Al Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2012/06/201268714474596.html) (08 Jun 2012)

[Xenomorph]

Yeah, it's corrupt, but just look at countries like India and Russia and Europe looks like a good two shoes paradise.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yeah, it's corrupt, but just look at countries like India and Russia and Europe looks like a good two shoes paradise.
It's not an excuse for us to tolerate it here. Actually: it's all the more reason to either dismantle the EU permanently and make stronger laws against lobbying and corruption (and enforce them !) or to democratise the entire EU and make stronger laws against lobbying and corruption (and enforce them !).

[Hess]

We have long stopped holding our governments accountable; Europeans have been living in a sense of blissful ignorance ever since the end of WWII.

[The Lawspeaker]

We have long stopped holding our governments accountable; Europeans have been living in a sense of blissful ignorance ever since the end of WWII.

Like it was any better before World War II when the majority of the population barely had the vote and few were actually represented.

[Hess]

Like it was any better before World War II when the majority of the population barely had the vote and few were actually represented.

After a couple of searches, I came across this report (http://www.idea.int/publications/voter_turnout_weurope/upload/Full_Reprot.pdf)

It looks like Voter Turnout in 1945 was better for some European Countries than in 2003

[The Lawspeaker]

After a couple searches, I came across this report (http://www.idea.int/publications/voter_turnout_weurope/upload/Full_Reprot.pdf)

It looks like Voter Turnout in 1945 was better for some European Countries than in 2003
Did you also look what countries actually had universal suffrage ? The Netherlands had it since 1919.

[Hess]

The Netherlands had it since 1919.

Isn't that pretty good by Global Standards?

The Netherlands and other Western European Countries were among the first in the world to adopt Universal Suffrage, and I think that's something to be proud of.

[The Lawspeaker]

Isn't that pretty good by Global Standards?

The Netherlands and other Western European Countries were among the first in the world to adopt Universal Suffrage, and I think that's something to be proud of.
Hmm. I disagree. Very well: voting was universal but a lot of parties like the SDAP (now PvdA/Labour) were constantly kept out of the government until 1939 regardless of the number of seats they won. So it was by no means a real democracy.

[Winterwolf]

Those quoted prominent cases of corruption within the op are just the tip of the iceberg.
Corruption exists everywhere. The more civilized or advanced a country is, the more hidden corruption will take place.

[Corvus]

Corruption is extremly widespread on this continent, but you will find the biggest one in countries you would not expect at all

[Anthropologique]

I've found that people are corrupt everywhere in Europe. It's really a matter of degree and sophistication level. Corruption tends to be more raw in a place like Greece, but it's probably not less than what you might find in, say, the U.K., where the shenanigans are usually veiled in some form. You should see some of the s**t going on in Flanders, especially Antwerp.

We are basically committing social suicide, little by little.

[Winterwolf]

Seconded.

Corruption isn’t alien to the more organised and richer states of Northern and Western Europe; it just works in a different way. Over here you won’t be able to walk directly into the townhall or mayor’s office with a briefcase full of money; but nevertheless corruption takes place, just much more discrete than in the south.

[kabeiros]

True. When ordinary Greek people understood just how corrupted the politicians are, they thought to themselves ''fuck it'', I'll do what ever it takes to achieve my goal (whatever their goal might have been). This didn't happen yesterday but at least 30 years ago...that's how corruption has spread to all levels of society.

[Absinthe]

True. When ordinary Greek people understood just how corrupted the politicians are, they thought to themselves ''fuck it'', I'll do what ever it takes to achieve my goal (whatever their goal might have been). This didn't happen yesterday but at least 30 years ago...that's how corruption has spread to all levels of society.
How did we realize how corrupt the politicians are and what did we do after that (voted for them again). And who put those corrupt politicians there, in the first place? We did.

I am sorry but there is no excuse to the levels of corruption we have now. Everybody knew and even laughed about it.

We think it's "cool" (eisai magkas) to cheat the state and we think it's cool for our politicians to cheat other states as long as we all get a share of the pie.

And hence the corruption is perpetuated because it's inherent in the society that we, the people, have built.

Now that we've stopped getting our share of the pie, we put the blame on the corrupt politicians, who operated all these years with the blessings of the people. No blame whatsoever on the innocent Greek citizen. Not to say all Greek citizens are to blame, especially the young ones who were born in this situation. But I am saying that at least some Greek citizens should be blamed, especially those who operated on fraud and corruption. Why is it only the politicians that should go to jail? A lot of smaller-scale fraudsters should also do so.
And the rest of us should introspect really hard about how we have silently accepted, or even endorsed (willingly or unwillingly) corruption on a daily basis.

[Xenomorph]

Name me one place that is not corrupt, besides Switzerland.

[kabeiros]

What the hell are you talking about? Where did I say any of the things you mention? Ofcourse corruption is inherent in our culture now and ofcourse the people have a fair amount of share for this situation. But you like it or not it was spread by Papandreou's PASOK during the 80's, Greek people were very different before his coming into power.
Politicians make the rules and judges make sure that they are being followed. Even if all Greeks become angels of truth and justice, if those in high places remain as corrupted as they are, nothing will change.

[Absinthe]

What the hell are you talking about? Where did I say any of the things you mention? Ofcourse corruption is inherent in our culture now and ofcourse the people have a fair amount of share for this situation. But you like it or not it was spread by Papandreou's PASOK during the 80's, Greek people were very different before his coming into power.
Politicians make the rules and judges make sure that they are being followed. Even if all Greeks become angels of truth and justice, if those in high places remain as corrupted as they are, nothing will change.

I am sorry if I misunderstood but I thought you somehow justified corruption in the above sentence. If it wasn't so, I apologize.

Corruption was not spread by Papandreou, it climaxed then. An interesting story to read is that of "Laureotika" and how as early in the 1890s in the newly formed Greek state, Greeks thought that all of the sudden they would get rich out of thin air, bought shares that were basically worth shit, and lost their money overnight.

The master con of this fraud was Andreas Syggros, today considered to be a benefactor of Greece and has hospitals and highways named after him. He was living abroad and he had a good knowledge of contemporary economics. He then decided to come to Greece and take advantage of the utter ignorance that his compatriots had about the rules of the market. He fooled them, got the life's savings of many people and fled.


Στην εισαγωγή των Απομνημονευμάτων του Συγγρού (θα κυκλοφορήσει ως το τέλος του χρόνου από την Εστία, οι επιμελητές της έκδοσης καθηγητής Αλκης Αγγέλου και η κυρία Μ. - Χ. Χατζηιωάννου δίνουν πολύ σαφή εικόνα:

«Ξαφνικά ένα κοινό ανίδεο από οικονομικά, και το οποίο μπορούσε συνεπώς εύκολα να παρασυρθεί από λογής καιροσκόπους και κερδοσκόπους, εμπλέκεται σε μια δίνη πολυειδών ψευδαισθήσεων με άμετρες προσδοκίες. Ευκολόπιστοι και καλόπιστοι, αλλά και αφελείς οι Αθηναίοι κυρίως, πιστεύουν ότι είναι δυνατόν μια επιχείρηση αμελημένη εντελώς από την αρχαιότητα, να τους λύσει το οικονομικό πρόβλημα και να μετατρέψει από τη μια στιγμή στην άλλη τη χώρα τους σε γη επαγγελίας. Χωρίς να λάβουν καν υπόψη τους ότι εκείνος που είχε κινήσει όλη την υπόθεση ήταν ένας ξένος επιχειρηματίας, ο οποίος δεν ήταν δυνατόν να ταυτίσει τις προσωπικές του επιδιώξεις από την επιχείρηση με τις προσδοκίες των Ελλήνων».

Does it remind you of something? ;) There have been some scandals in the past but then there were two World Wars and we forgot about it. And the corruption started building up again after the fall of Junta.

I think it all boils down to the fact that we just love Populism. Throughout the last centuries, anyone that comes with extravagant promises of easy wealth and prosperity out of thin air, we go ga-ga for him. Yesterday it was Andreas, today it is Tsipras, tomorrow someone else. We just don't want to do things the hard way. We are naive and fall easily for such promises. The moment we realize that the only way to obtain anything is via hardship and sacrifices, will be the moment that will break free of the vicious cycle.

[kabeiros]

You are right but corruption was always here (as in every other place in the world)... think about Byzantium or Ottoman Empires.
I was not trying to excuse Greeks for our corruption but PASOK of the 80's made it what it is today, a growing monster that noone can put down. That fuckin' party actually enforced Greeks to become corrupted and it imposed this
''it's cool to be corrupted'' culture that you mentioned in your post. Anyways, no hard feelings from me, I really enjoy most of your posts :thumb001:

[Pallantides]

Corruption always increase the further south you go...:P

[Absinthe]

You are right but corruption was always here (as in every other place in the world)...

It does....and boy, does it! Greeks are among the few Europeans who never cared about keeping appearances, though. That's why we're famous about it.


think about Byzantium or Ottoman Empires.

I was gonna say - ;)


I was not trying to excuse Greeks for our corruption but PASOK of the 80's made it what it is today, a growing monster that noone can put down. That fuckin' party actually enforced Greeks to become corrupted and it imposed this
''it's cool to be corrupted'' culture that you mentioned in your post.

To an extent that is true, I guess. Topped by the insertion of the "lifestyle mania" into the -up to that point- relatively low-profile and more reasonable Greek society, by Kostopoulos, who was -coincidence?- a lackey of PASOK as well. That was the nail on the coffin of Greece I believe.

Now that's an example of a non-politician that ought to be, not jailed, but hung.



Anyways, no hard feelings from me, I really enjoy most of your posts :thumb001:

Aww :tea:

[xajapa]

Those quoted prominent cases of corruption within the op are just the tip of the iceberg.
Corruption exists everywhere. The more civilized or advanced a country is, the more hidden corruption will take place.
I agree with this. I see corruption throughout the governments in my country, on a national, state and local level. Much of it is quite discreet, savvy and covert, borderline ethical actions that don't draw media attention but are corrupt to the system of governance nonetheless.

[kabeiros]

Corruption always increase the further south you go...:P

You don't have to be so self reassuring, although what you say is probably true. I have never searched about corruption levels in Nordic countries but I think that the difference is exactly what I posted... even ordinary southerners are corrupted, while it's only your high class that is corrupted.

[Absinthe]

Corruption always increase the further south you go...:P
What about east? ;)

[Hess]

The only reason why Big Business lobbies the Government in the first place is because the Governmet is in a position to give them Bailouts and Subsidies.

In other words- the smaller the size of
Government, the less reason for corporations to lobby it.

[The Lawspeaker]

The only reason why Big Business lobbies the Government in the first place is because the Governmet is in a position to give them Bailouts and Subsidies.

In other words- the smaller the size of
Government, the less reason for corporations to lobby it.
In theory. How about reality ? The smaller the size of government the more of big business owns the government.

[kabeiros]

Throughout the last centuries, anyone that comes with extravagant promises of easy wealth and prosperity out of thin air, we go ga-ga for him. Yesterday it was Andreas, today it is Tsipras, tomorrow someone else.

Tsipras is Papandreou's reincarnation and Syriza is PASOK desguised...

[Hess]

In theory. How about reality ? The smaller the size of government the more of big business owns the government.

If the government had nothing to offer companies, why would companies waste millions of dollars on lobbying?

It's just supply and demand- if the government stops supplying bailouts and subsidies, companies will stop demanding a greater influence in Governmet affairs.

[The Lawspeaker]

If the government had nothing to offer companies, why would companies waste millions of dollars on lobbying?

Because it could fight their wars, quash workers, lower taxes even more etc. And unlike your story mine is based on reality: 19th century nachtwakersstaat with the police and army just functioning to quash workers and conquer the colonies. There is a reason why things changed, Hess, eventhough the Jew Friedman may claim otherwise and the Austrian school of economics is about as Austrian as matzo.

[Xenomorph]

If the government had nothing to offer companies, why would companies waste millions of dollars on lobbying?

It's just supply and demand- if the government stops supplying bailouts and subsidies, companies will stop demanding a greater influence in Governmet affairs.

You shrink government too small, and corporations lock togther to form monopolies, killing small businesses and competition. Free markets that are absolutely free never stay that way.

[The Lawspeaker]

You shrink government too small, and corporations lock togther to form monopolies, killing small businesses and competition. Free markets that are absolutely free never stay that way.

Markets need regulation or indeed what you and I described would happen. It would actually pave the way to tyranny more then what Friedman claims.

[Xenomorph]

Markets need regulation or indeed what you and I described would happen. It would actually pave the way to tyranny more then what Friedman claims.

I think a big problem is that many people (both in the US and Europe) believe that tyranny can only come from centralized government. While it more certainly can and has, tyranny can come from many institutions; religion, corporations, local government, bullying neighbors. It's why anarchy will never work; warlord strongmen would fill the void and promote their own tyranny. Anytime a person is living in fear from someone or something more powerful that they have no recourse against, they are living in tyranny.

Corporate tyranny was rampant in 19th century America. Probably the most egregious example of this was the murdering of striking West Virginia miners, but everywhere, it was a handful of wealthy men like Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Morgan who ran the country. In the South, local landowners treated both white and black day laborers basically like slaves. Yes, the efforts of the big businessmen were crucial in expanding the political and economic power of the country, but it should not have been at the expense of average worker. It was only government anti-trust laws which stopped this.

[Hess]

Because it could fight their wars, quash workers, lower taxes even more etc.

-The theory that Capitalism benefits from war has been rejected and debunked ad nauseam by every serious economist, both Keynesian and Austrian; only a few World Systems Scholars still cling to it.


-Corporations realize that if they quash workers, workers will decrease the quality of their work; that's why Slave Labor is so inefficient. To the contrary, many companies use bonuses and efficiency wages to try to get the most out of their workers

Indeed, most cases of worker quashing come from Government subsidized Mega-Corporations that don't have to answer before the free market.


-Taxes sometimes carry unintended consequences, and many Taxes intended to help the poor actually end up hurting them. A great example of this is the Luxury Tax (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CFQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F1991%2F07%2F21% 2Fnyregion%2Fnew-luxury-tax-trimming-boat-sales.html%3Fpagewanted%3Dall%26src%3Dpm&ei=5-MBUNvALIG36wHO1qXoBg&usg=AFQjCNGS9JhXMzXWIZRkztM_4onUe_OhLg&sig2=cH_nJiUqsyKddszSMNxmug) on Boats. When the tax came into effect, rich people simply found other ways to spend their money and, as a result, the yacht making industry collapsed and millions of workers lost theor jobs.

And by the way, The Austrian School was created (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School#History) in Austria by Austrians


You shrink government too small, and corporations lock togther to form monopolies, killing small businesses and competition. Free markets that are absolutely free never stay that way.

Rockefeller controlled most of the oil market back in his day, and yet he did not engage in price gouging nor did he lower the quality of his product just because he could.

There was a massive propaganda campaign waged against him by his competitors and the sensationalist media, but the fact remains that he lowered the cost of oil and made it more available for everyone. He even saved the wales (http://www.forbes.com/sites/warrenmeyer/2010/11/05/the-man-who-saved-the-whales/)

Some people like to paint Rockefeller as an evil monopolist, but I would argue that he was just a smart businessman who did his job better than anyone else.

The point being, one man's "monopoly" can be another man's successful, innovative business depending on where you are on the political spectrum.

[The Lawspeaker]

-----
You need to get yourself off Jew Economics and look at what really happened. 19th and 20th century European history.

[el22]

Just how corrupt is Europe?

I hope it is some, otherwise we’ll never feel part of it.

Jokes aside, I think that whenever a small group of people makes decisions in the name of a bigger group of people, corruption is inevitable.

I’m never surprised by corruption records, I always wonder how come it’s not more.