South Lithuanians and Dacians?

[korkolola]

I've noticed there are a few Lithuanians out here. What do you guys think of Beresnevicius' legend-story-tale about South Lithuanians being descendants of Dacians? :p (http://www.straipsniai.lt/en//page/11824)


For those who do not know it - one now deceased writer, academic in Lithuania had this strange little story that South Lithuanians (Dzūkai) Dzukians are descendants of Dacian tribes...

[Siegfried]

I have a Lithuanian friend whose father wouldn't look out of place in Romania (though he has a Polish surname). As well, I heard there are some ties between Dacian and Baltic languages. I don't know much on the topic, but it might be so.

[korkolola]

I have a Lithuanian friend whose father wouldn't look out of place in Romania (though he has a Polish surname). As well, I heard there are some ties between Dacian and Baltic languages. I don't know much on the topic, but it might be so.

As far as I know, there hasn't been any serious research on that.

The writer itself emphasises on the southern-like, warlike character of Southern Lithuanians, some similarities between the languages (it says that both Dzukians and Dacians use a lot of 'dz/tz' before 'd's and t's'), Southern Lithuanians being phenotypically darker than the rest of Lithuanians and that's probably it.

Wonder if anyone has heard of this tale/story/legend?

[Dacul]

What is weird is that in lithuanian language are cognates with gothic language.
For example son,sunus in lithuanian.

[Siegfried]

What is weird is that in lithuanian language are cognates with gothic language.
For example son,sunus in lithuanian.

Maybe some later Germanic influences, but that is possible too. However, what I find intresting--sorry to go shortly off-topic--is that the Finnish word for "and" is "ja", the same as in Gothic.

[Dacul]

Well there are few cognates between lithuanian language and old romanian words,as for example doina For example:
doina - some kind popular song - lithuanian daina

Romanian juvete - a fish,or a net used for fish - lithuanian žuvis (ž from lithuanian is pronounced as romanian j).

There is here a list of reconstructed dacian words with lots of them being said to have cognates in lithuanian but I searched some of them with google translate and could not find :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words

But lithuanian folk costumes are not too close to those from Romania,while those from Balkans are almost identical to romanian folk costumes.

[korkolola]

Well there are few cognates between lithuanian language and old romanian words,as for example doina For example:
doina - some kind popular song - lithuanian daina

Romanian juvete - a fish,or a net used for fish - lithuanian žuvis (ž from lithuanian is pronounced as romanian j).

There is here a list of reconstructed dacian words with lots of them being said to have cognates in lithuanian but I searched some of them with google translate and could not find :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words

But lithuanian folk costumes are not too close to those from Romania,while those from Balkans are almost identical to romanian folk costumes.

My translations:

Dacian - Lithuanian
akmon (stone) - akmuo/akmenys (stone)
alm (river) - alma (v. - to purl)
amalas (mistletoe) - amalas (mistletoe)
baidas (frightening) - baidyti (to frighten)
balas (white) - baltas (white)
berza (birch) - beržas (birch)
brukla (cranberry) - bruknė (cranberry)
butas (house, dwelling) - butas (room, flat)
degis (burning, shining) - degti (to burn)
dumas (dark brown) - dūmas (smoke)
galtis (sheet-ice, frost) - šaltis (frost)
geras (good) - geras (good)
gilus (deep) - gilus (deep)
gira/giria (forest) - giria (forest)
griva (river-bed, river-mouth) - griovys (ditch, trench)
kapas (hill, slope) - kapas (grave)
keda (chair) - kėdė (chair)
kerta (clearing in a wood) - kirsti/kerta (to clear the wood)
klevas (maple tree) - klevas (maple tree)
ramus (peaceful) - ramus (peaceful)
rouka (drizzle, fine rain) - rūkas (mist)
sausas (dry) - sausas (dry)
skaudus (painful) - skaudus (painful)
spirus (fast, rapid) - spėrus (fast, rapid)
suras (salty) - sūrus (salty)
tauta (nation) - tauta (nation)
upa (river) - upė (river)
zuv (fish) - žuvis (fish)

[korkolola]

My translations:

Dacian - Lithuanian
akmon (stone) - akmuo/akmenys (stone)
alm (river) - alma (v. - to purl)
amalas (mistletoe) - amalas (mistletoe)
baidas (frightening) - baidyti (to frighten)
balas (white) - baltas (white)
berza (birch) - beržas (birch)
brukla (cranberry) - bruknė (cranberry)
butas (house, dwelling) - butas (room, flat)
degis (burning, shining) - degti (to burn)
dumas (dark brown) - dūmas (smoke)
galtis (sheet-ice, frost) - šaltis (frost)
geras (good) - geras (good)
gilus (deep) - gilus (deep)
gira/giria (forest) - giria (forest)
griva (river-bed, river-mouth) - griovys (ditch, trench)
kapas (hill, slope) - kapas (grave)
keda (chair) - kėdė (chair)
kerta (clearing in a wood) - kirsti/kerta (to clear the wood)
klevas (maple tree) - klevas (maple tree)
ramus (peaceful) - ramus (peaceful)
rouka (drizzle, fine rain) - rūkas (mist)
sausas (dry) - sausas (dry)
skaudus (painful) - skaudus (painful)
spirus (fast, rapid) - spėrus (fast, rapid)
suras (salty) - sūrus (salty)
tauta (nation) - tauta (nation)
upa (river) - upė (river)
zuv (fish) - žuvis (fish)

The similarities are pretty impressive, I must say :)

[member]

What is weird is that in Lithuanian language are cognates with gothic language.
For example son,sunus in Lithuanian.

This does not indicate any special connection of Gothic and Lithuanian. Look for "son" in Kinship table. Reconstructed proto-Indo-European word for "son" is *suHnú- . This means that Gothic and Lithuanian have simply preserved less changed forms of this word.


Maybe some later Germanic influences, but that is possible too. However, what I find interesting--sorry to go shortly off-topic--is that the Finnish word for "and" is "ja", the same as in Gothic.

Frederik Kortland in one his books that can be partially viewed on Google books mentioned that old Prussian was heavily influenced by Gothic. I haven't encountered such statement reading works by Lithuanians, on the contrary, they say that old Prussian was even more archaic than Lithuanian.

G. Beresnevičius is not a linguist, nor archaeologist. These writings in your link give absolutely no proofs to support "Lithuanians out of Dacians" theory. Sorry, but there is nothing to discuss about.


Well there are few cognates between lithuanian language and old romanian words,as for example doina For example:
doina - some kind popular song - lithuanian daina

Romanian juvete - a fish,or a net used for fish - lithuanian žuvis (ž from lithuanian is pronounced as romanian j).

There is here a list of reconstructed dacian words with lots of them being said to have cognates in lithuanian but I searched some of them with google translate and could not find :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words

But lithuanian folk costumes are not too close to those from Romania,while those from Balkans are almost identical to romanian folk costumes.

From wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language)
The extinct Dacian language may have developed from Proto-Indo-European (PIE) in the Carpathian region around 2,500 BC and probably died out by AD 600.


These dates simply mean that it must had had a lot of archaic features. Again it may not necessarily show any special connection to Lithuanian apart from that Indo-European as I showed earlier. Lithuanian is considered as one of the least changed Indo-European languages. It has changed, but less than many other living languages.

From wikipedia again:
A hypothesis that Thracian (or in other scenarios, Daco-Thracian) and the Baltic languages[citation needed] or the Balto-Slavic languages form one branch of Indo-European has also been proposed[citation needed]. Here again due to the scanty evidence, though many close cognates exist between Balto-Slavic and Thracian, there is not enough evidence to demonstrate that Thracian and Balto-Slavic or Thracian and Baltic (excluding Slavic in some scenarios) form one branch of Indo-European.

[korkolola]

I am terribly sorry for annoying exteremly advanced people here with my pseudoscientifc findings, which do not prove 'Lithuanians out of Dacians theory' (didn't know one exists)! ;)

[member]

I am terribly sorry for annoying exteremly advanced people here with my pseudoscientifc findings, which do not prove 'Lithuanians out of Dacians theory' (didn't know one exists)! ;)

I don't understand what do you expect to hear. Your post may have provoked wrong assumptions and I tried to clearly explain that it's just a tale and nothing more. I can not help if you demonstrate butthurt tone here because of that.

J. Basanavičius created a theory that Lithuanians hail from several ancient tribes of Balkans (including Dacians). So yeah, you can say that such theory exists.

[korkolola]

I don't understand what do you expect to hear. Your post may have provoked wrong assumptions and I tried to clearly explain that it's just a tale and nothing more. I can not help if you demonstrate butthurt tone here because of that.

J. Basanavičius created a theory that Lithuanians hail from several ancient tribes of Balkans (including Dacians). So yeah, you can say that such theory exists.


I don't expect anything from you. :D Keep your tone for yourself. :) No scientific proof - OK, I assumed it is like that, but was wondering if anyone here has heard of it before and I am interested where the story originates from. Bye!

[Mordid]

I've never heard that South Lithuanians are descendants of Dacians.

[Rereg]

I've never heard that South Lithuanians are descendants of Dacians.

South-eastern Balts from Lithuania are self-hating lithuanized Poles.

[Dacul]

Well that is a theory that dacians were balto-slavic language speakers.
Think this is also what that lithuanian woman scientist with "the goddess theory" Marija Gimbutas is saying.
What is certain now is that now in romanian language,after latin language,most words from common use are cognates with slavic/old slavic languages.And the percentage is quite high,think it is at least 20%.
Whatever,there is R1A1 in Romania,but no idea what branches .
I do not know if the branches of R1A1 in Lithuania are not various and I do not know if branches of R1A1 in Romania are not various also.
So this could be the only link on Y DNA to sustain this.
Another link could be with mt-dna tests,I think if mt-dna tests will be done most romanian women are slavic + balto slavic mix.

[member]

But modern Romanians aren't the same as ancient Dacians, they're only partially Dacian.


Samples of ancient Dacian remains should be used in the first place for deciding such things, no?

If Romanians are partially Slavic it may very well be later influences.

Besiddes, Dacian language died out 600 AD and it's still argued when and where Slavs originated. some say not earlier than hundreds of years after Christ. It may be that if Dacians had Slavic genes it means that they were a bit mixed with ancestors of Slavs who at the time weren't already Slavs and of course didn't speak a Slavic language. Who knows.

[Daos]

I've read quite a few books about the Dacians, so I did stumble upon this theory, but I don't know what to make of it. Wouldn't there be archaeological evidence of Dacian presence in Lithuania, or indeed all the way to Lithuania? To my knowledge the northernmost evidence of Dacian presence is in Zakarpattia, Ukraine.

[Dacul]

A theory might be like this:
Dacians were iranians since you can not explain otherwise the 30% on average admixture from middle-east/caucasian in Romania and Balkans.
And you can not explain otherwise from where slavic language got the cognates with west iranic languages.Which are plenty.You can not explain either the use of kaval at all Balkanic nations and in Romania.
So actually is very possible that thracians were the old proto-slavs+balto-slavs and were speaking some proto-balto-slavic languages.And the cognates in lithuanian are from thracian ancestry.
Think actually these (balto-slavs+slavs) were called the thracians.
And after dacians came and conquered thracians from Romania and Balkans they also spread toward Russia and Ukraine and Poland and Central Europe and gave there leading class and changed the language.And from here west iranic cognates in slavic languages and also the presence of I2-din.
After Roman Empire conquered Balkans and also a part of Romania and it seems that most dacians from Romania were fighting as paid soldiers in Roman Empire army so this is how language in Dacia/Romania got very closed to popular latin.
After goths came and they also further changed the language and this is how slavic languages were born.
I2-din suggested to be spread from north-east Romania and Dinaric Alps toward all slavic countries and not reversed.I know serbians and alboz might not like it,but it makes a lot of sense.
Just a theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages#Influence_on_neighboring_language s
"The Romanian language in particular shows strong and profound Slavic influences at all levels, including phonetics, syntax, and grammar. "

What seems more certain is the link between the name of the dacians (which seems to have been - wolf people) and old slavic religion,in which supreme deity was a wolf.And all slavs were told to descend from that wolf so they were called "wolf people".
Now if this religion was actually brought by dacians it also explains how ancient religion of baltic people does not have anything with wolves.

[member]

Balto-Slavic languages do not hail from some Iranian language(s).

The phonological changes which set Balto-Slavic apart from other Indo-European languages probably lasted from c. 3000 to 1000 BCE, a period known as common Proto-Balto-Slavic.[2] Kortlandt (1990) links the earliest stages of Balto-Slavic development with the Middle Dnieper culture which connects the Corded Ware and Yamna cultures. Kurganists connect the latter two cultures with the so-called "Northwest (IE) group"[3] and the Iranic-speaking steppe nomads, respectively. This fits with the linguistic evidence in that Balto-Slavic appears to have had close contacts with Indo-Iranian and Proto-Germanic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic_language#Proto-Balto-Slavic

No definite evidence has yet been found that demonstrates that Thracian or Daco-Thracian belonged on the same branch as Albanian or Baltic or Balto-Slavic or Greco-Macedonian or Phrygian or any other IE branch. For this reason textbooks still treat Thracian as its own branch of Indo-European, or as a Daco-Thracian/Thraco-Dacian branch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

[Dacul]

Balto-Slavic languages do not hail from some Iranian language(s).

The phonological changes which set Balto-Slavic apart from other Indo-European languages probably lasted from c. 3000 to 1000 BCE, a period known as common Proto-Balto-Slavic.[2] Kortlandt (1990) links the earliest stages of Balto-Slavic development with the Middle Dnieper culture which connects the Corded Ware and Yamna cultures. Kurganists connect the latter two cultures with the so-called "Northwest (IE) group"[3] and the Iranic-speaking steppe nomads, respectively. This fits with the linguistic evidence in that Balto-Slavic appears to have had close contacts with Indo-Iranian and Proto-Germanic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic_language#Proto-Balto-Slavic

No definite evidence has yet been found that demonstrates that Thracian or Daco-Thracian belonged on the same branch as Albanian or Baltic or Balto-Slavic or Greco-Macedonian or Phrygian or any other IE branch. For this reason textbooks still treat Thracian as its own branch of Indo-European, or as a Daco-Thracian/Thraco-Dacian branch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language
You did not even read with attention what I have wrote.
I said that thracians were speakers of balto-slavic languages.
And that dacians,who were iranians came and conquered a part of balto-slavs/thracians.
And changed the language of these people.
After,under the influence of goths and their language slavic languages are born.
Because in slavic languages most cognates are with balto-slavic but there are also cognates with west iranic languages and with scandinavian languages.
How can you know about thracian language when so few of it was preserved?
You can not know.
What happened to thracians,where did they were gone?
Lol.

[Birka]

I have often read that Lithuanian is the most closely related active language to Sanskrit.

http://www.lituanus.org/1982_1/82_1_01.htm

[member]

You did not even read with attention what I have wrote.
I said that thracians were speakers of balto-slavic languages.
And that dacians,who were iranians came and conquered a part of balto-slavs/thracians.
And changed the language of these people.
After,under the influence of goths and their language slavic languages are born.
Because in slavic languages most cognates are with balto-slavic but there are also cognates with west iranic languages and with scandinavian languages.
How can you know about thracian language when so few of it was preserved?
You can not know.
What happened to thracians,where did they were gone?
Lol.

Stop making fun of yourself.

Read some books, because your theory is worth shit.

[Daco Celtic]

One of my best friends is half Lithuanian. The natural bond of Lithuanians-Dacians.