Bell Beaker examples

[Goswinus]

The following excerpt is selected from E.A. Hooton's Up from the Ape (New York, 1947, revised edition) describes the prevalent Bell Beaker type, or British Bronze age type, as a morphological subdivision of the Dinarid race.
At the end of his outline though, and in regard of contemporary Britain, he thinks this type lives on in small diluted numbers and rather in the majority of cases as a composite race or metamorphic race, meaning one in which a characteristic and stabilized combination of morphological and metrical features has been effected by a lenghty and perpetual intermixture
of two primary races within a zone of relative isolation, in this case, a Nordic-Alpine cross grown taller and more rugged than either parental races through hybrid vigour.


British Bronze Age (Beaker type)

Distinguishing Characters:
A. Head form: more massive and globular, less pointed than Dinaric
B. Face form: broader in malar region, squarer, gonial angles more marked
C. Nose form: fleshier than the ordinary Dinaric nose, shorter
D. Skin color: usually florid or ruddy
E. Hair color: oftener reddish
F. Body build: heavier and broader than average Dinaric(?)

In the Bronze Age, or just before the introduction of bronze, Britain
was invaded by tall, massive roundheads who seem to have come from
about the same area near the mouth of the Rhine and northwestern
Germany from which the later Anglo-Saxons sailed. Probably other
brachycephals came to England later during this period, but the custom
of cremation obscures their racial affinities. British anthropologists
have long recognized a contemporary English and Scottish type as
probably surviving from these Bronze Age invaders or as an effect of
recombination of the same subracial elements.

It is tall, heavy-boned, weighty and, in middle and advanced years,
obese. The skin is usually florid or beefy, the eyes blue or light
mixed. Sometimes, however, and especially in Shetland, and in parts of
North England, and Scotland, and Ireland, the hair and skin are dark.
The head is massive, brachycephalic and sometimes rather flattened
behind. If the high, pointed Armenoid-Dinaric brachycephaly exist in
this type, it is uncommon. Brow-ridges are heavy, malars prominent,
and the face rather broad, but not short. The nose is usually long,
wide, and convex-decidely beaky. Beard and body hair are strongly
developed.

It has ordinarily been considered an Alpine-Nordic cross, and it is
clear enough that both of these elements frequently enter into its
composition. However, the nasal convexity and occasionally flattened
occiput perhaps qualify the type more correctly as Dinaric. This is
the opinion of Coon, who points out that the blend could not have been
formed in situ in Britain because of the absence of any antecedent
Alpine type that is an essential ingredient. As a matter of fact, Coon
thinks that the brachycephlic element in the John Bull type is closer
to the ancient massive Borreby type that the supposedly reduced Alpine
derivative.

If the Dinaric theory of British Bronze Age origins is correct, the
type harks back in respect of its nasal convexity to some ultimately
Middle or Near Eastern element, much adultered and modified by
admixture with western European types. As a matter of fact, probably
some of the so-called Bronze Age types are merely crosses of later
Nordic longheaded blonds with the pure Alpines(?).

[Goswinus]

The planoccipital component in the Beaker Folk is often but erroneously regarded as a Dinaric property and hence pushing the Dinaric element to the foreground, despite that the issues are complex; the large, rugged cranio-facial aspects and the scheme of pigmentation don't gell well together with what is known of the generic Dinaric, which in itself is a moot point as it's ample variegated manifestation in Europe and the fact that European Dinarics compared to their Asian counterparts are larged headed, gives good reason to assume that what goes for the proper Dinaric in Europe is none less than a representative of the Anatolid race, while others are special blends or native European races undergoing independently from any genetic flow a process of dinarization.

Absorption of local populations surely has had its impact on the Beaker Folk, but not necessary did it lead to attentuation of features.
In their west-bound wanderings, they would encounter in the Ardennes the small-built, sturdy Furfooz type, basically a protomorphic Alpine which still today regionally appears present, commingled in NE France with the blond Noric race though, that next to the Cromagnoid Alpines or Borreby, constitute the bi-polar core element of the Beaker Folk - stronger graded into a dinaroid morphology, less corpulent, tending to a sinewy constitution, long-faced and rather fair in pigmentation.
Further down the Southern Netherlands and the Seine-Oise-Marne region had a strong Alpine bearing, but by the end of the Neolitic however the Nordic/Nordoid element is on the rise and the Alpine present is diminishing.

[Goswinus]

This period might have been contigent to the emergence of the Subnordic race.

SubNordic is perhaps a misnomer, donned to various subraces in the classification of respective anthropologists. The SNPA is widely known.
Originally Deniker relates it to a mesocephalic variety of the East Baltic race, identified as Vistulian. It was also a subdivision of Georges Montandon's Greater Blond Race (a Nordish concept avant-la-lettre), whichencompasses Nordic and Nordoid races which aren't equally blond, long-headed and so on.
It was not the Nordic-Alpine stabilized blend as conceived by Coon (imo misreading Montandon), The Nordish Compact by R. McCullough and the SNPA. In fact, Montandon calls this special blend "pseudo-dinaroid": taller than average, chestnut brown-haired, rather fair-skinned, brachycephalic (curvo/planoccipital condition not specified) and unlike 'true' Dinarics, face and head form are harmonious, probably meaning that a round or squad shaped face is grafted to a globular and/or short head.
It's in this respect more a problem of semantics.

In my view, the British Bronze Age type is either a local manifestation of the Borreby race or could belong to the Subnordic category if one accepts it to cover various outcomes of a Nordic-Alpine cross:
a) essentially the stabilized pseudo-Dinaroid, a more progressive Alpine.
b) a re-emerged Borreby through hybrid vigour, stronger dinaricized compared to the typical Borreby.
c) a brachycephalic Nordic/Nordoid, often barely distinguishable from a pure Nordic, except in head shape. As rounding of the skull in the occipital area was seen in neolithic Germany, it can be acribed to a tendency in the race itself without interference of a foreign element.

[007]

An example of the type in question, Steve Rackman.

[Kanuni]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Beaker_culture.png


This new (Bell Beaker) type was tall, round headed and frequently planoccipital; its nose was prominent and narrow; its face triangular and of moderate length. In its associated morphological features, it forecast the appearance of the Dinaric race.

Carleton Stevens Coon
Races of Europe
(Chapter V, section 13)
Summary and conclusions
Macmillam Press
1939


The Bell Beaker group is more extreme in many ways; the browridges are often heavy, the general ruggedness frequently greater. The faces are characteristically narrow, the orbits medium to high, the nasal skeleton high and aquiline; the occiput frequently flat. The stature for six males reached the high mean of 177 cm.

Carleton Stevens Coon
Races of Europe
(Chapter V, section 7)
The Copper Age in Europe North of the Mediterranean Lands: Danubian Movements and Bell Beakers
Macmillam Press
1939


These Dinarics did not come from central Asia, nor from Mesopotamia or Egypt. Facially, they resemble the dolichocephalic residents of Asia Minor and the eastern Mediterranean coastlands of the period during which they first appeared, in that both have in common a high-bridged, high-rooted nose, high orbits, and a sloping forehead. Until further evidence is found, it is safer to hold that the culture-bearing Dinarics of the Bronze Age developed in the Syrian highlands, where a similar type of brachycephaly is now present...

As the Bell Beaker people, these newcomers traveled from Spain to the Rhineland and to central Europe, where they were the first disseminators of metal. Having appeared in the Rhineland in considerable numbers, they mixed with the older Borreby sub-stratum, which had remained there since the Mesolithic, and with Corded people coming from the east. This triple combination moved bodily down the Rhine and across the North Sea to Britain.

Carleton Stevens Coon
Races of Europe
(Chapter V, section 13)
Summary and conclusions
Macmillam Press
1939



A succession of Kurgan waves of expansion was set out, the fourth influencing the Vucedol culture of Yugoslavia. This was significant for the further 'Kurganization' of Europe by the Bell Beaker people.

The Bell Beaker complex, an offshoot of the Vucedol Bloc, continued Kurgan characteristics. The Bell Beaker people of the second half of the 3rd millennium BC were vagabonding horse riders and archers in much the same way as their uncles and cousins, the Corded people of northern Europe and the Catacombe Grave people of the North Pontic region. Their spread over central and Western Europe to the British Islands and Spain, as well as the Mediterranean Islands terminates the period of expansion and destruction.
(Marija Gimbutas, 1973)


Colin Renfrew
Archaology and Language
Chapter 3: Lost Languages & Forgotten Scripts
Page: 39
Penguin
1987


It seems likely that the Beaker folk arrived along the same route as their Mediterranean kinsmen, the Neolithic farmers (see: Section 2). The Beaker people were not just another branch of the Mediterranean type, as Coon insisted to his death (see: Adventures & Discoveries, 1981). It will be shown when the subject is taken up in the next part of this section that this differentiation does have a genetic basis. For now, Harrison adds more insight on the matter:

Similar conclusions were drawn for France and adjoining territories and it is clear that these large, round, steep heads are not to be derived from Mediterranean populations.

R.J Harrison
The Beaker Folk
Chapter 7
Page 160-162
Thames & Hudson, London
1980


It is, therefore, possible that the present Dinaric populations of the Dinaric Alps and the Carpathians may be derived in part from this eastward invasion. The small numbers and scattered burial habits of the Bell Beaker people on the more densely populated plains of Europe must have made them of much less ethnic importance there than in the mountains.

Carleton Stevens Coon
Races of Europe
(Chapter V, section 7)
The Copper Age in Europe North of the Mediterranean Lands: Danubian Movements and Bell Beakers
Macmillam Press
1939



In their Rhineland center, the more numerous Bell Beaker people had constant relationships with the inhabitants of Denmark, who were still burying in corridor tombs. Furthermore, the Corded people, one branch of whom invaded Jutland and introduced the single-grave type of burial, also migrated to the Rhine Valley, and here amalgamated themselves with the Bell Beaker people, who were already in process of mixing with their Borreby type neighbors. The result of this triple fusion was a great expansion, and a population overflow down the Rhine, in the direction of Britain.

Carleton Stevens Coon
Races of Europe
(Chapter V, section 13)
Summary and conclusions
Macmillam Press
1939



The main work on Bell Beaker physical anthropology has centered on the skeletons found with Beaker pottery in Central and Western Germany where five main types of skulls were sorted out. Of prime importance is a large round skull with a flattened occipital bone at the back. This type, according to Gerhardt, forms the core of the Beaker population. The men, in particular were strongly built and before the appearance of Bell Beakers, their physical type was not often found in Germany or anywhere else north of the Alps…

R.J Harrison
The Beaker Folk
Chapter 7
Page 160-162
Thames & Hudson, London
1980



…in all primitive societies where metal work is carried out, the people concerned exist as separate tribes, castes or communities. They exist among other craftsmen but without interbreeding (…) When they traveled among the tribal societies of Central Europe, they evidently lived apart from the barbarians… Very widely the metal workers are wandering groups who trade while they work.


The Evolution of Man and Society
C.D Darlington
Page 130
Simon & Schuster
New York
1969


Gerhardt pointed out that...there seemed to be a fusion of several tribes, without any intermixing. The men had the typical large, round, steep heads; it was the women who were largely responsible for the mixed character of the population as a whole…foreign men could have married women from the surrounding communities, who would be different in each area where Beaker pottery was introduced by the newcomers (…) In Bell Beaker contexts, these special skulls are known from Britain, France and even Spain (…)

R.J Harrison
The Beaker Folk
Chapter 7
Page 160-162
Thames & Hudson, London
1980


According to Darlington, a PhD and pioneering Geneticist and Anthropologist:

…the shaping of the stones at Stonehenge uses the same technique as that of the Egyptian obelisks…

Further, the stone circle is a feature of the worship of certain Beaker people known in other countries who on the trade journeys passed close by the Presley mountains where they had found the bluestones for their altar.

The people who speak Celtic languages must owe their special character rather to the earlier people who existed in the Western countries, people who arose from the fusion of Neolithic, Megalithic and Bell Beaker people, people with the largest Paleolithic content in Europe.

The Evolution of Man and Society
C.D Darlington
Page 146
Simon & Schuster, New York
1969

[Ushtari]

According to Agrippa, Albanians are closest to the Bell beakers in phenotype

[Kanuni]

According to Agrippa, Albanians are closest to the Bell beakers in phenotype

Probably,since their remains show heavy Dinarization.

[Prince Carlo]

Bell Beakers were mostly R1b. I think that Basque are the most similar to them.


Gerhardt pointed out that...there seemed to be a fusion of several tribes, without any intermixing. The men had the typical large, round, steep heads; it was the women who were largely responsible for the mixed character of the population as a whole…foreign men could have married women from the surrounding communities, who would be different in each area where Beaker pottery was introduced by the newcomers (…) In Bell Beaker contexts, these special skulls are known from Britain, France and even Spain (…)

This makes sense to me. Bell Beaker graves has a lot of Mtdna haplos diversity.

[Ibericus]

Albanians ? Lol they are not even part of the bell beaker culture.

[Panopticon]

Albanians ? Lol they are not even part of the bell beaker culture.

Bell Beaker populations probably migrated to the Balkans through Central Europe. They settled particularly in mountainous areas. That is also where Bell Beakeroid (Dinaroid) phenotypes are (by far) the most common. There is no question that Albanians resemble the basic phenotype of the Bell Beakers much more than Iberians f.e. even if the Bell Beaker culture did not exist in the Balkans.

[Anthropologique]

Much of the Coon material is laughable. I find it interesting that, despite the fact that much of what he posited has been discredited, people still reference the guy.:rolleyes2:

[Anthropologique]

Bell Beaker populations probably migrated to the Balkans through Central Europe. They settled particularly in mountainous areas. That is also where Bell Beakeroid (Dinaroid) phenotypes are (by far) the most common. There is no question that Albanians resemble the basic phenotype of the Bell Beakers much more than Iberians f.e. even if the Bell Beaker culture did not exist in the Balkans.

You need to read Barry Cunliffe.

[Anthropologique]

Bell Beakers were mostly R1b. I think that Basque are the most similar to them.



This makes sense to me. Bell Beaker graves has a lot of Mtdna haplos diversity.

The Atlantic theory...

Southern Portugal has the oldest Bell Beaker sites.

[Ibericus]

Bell Beaker populations probably migrated to the Balkans through Central Europe. They settled particularly in mountainous areas. That is also where Bell Beakeroid (Dinaroid) phenotypes are (by far) the most common. There is no question that Albanians resemble the basic phenotype of the Bell Beakers much more than Iberians f.e. even if the Bell Beaker culture did not exist in the Balkans.
Dude...the bell beaker culture actually started in Iberia.

[Panopticon]

Dude...the bell beaker culture actually started in Iberia.

I know that. Yet the Bell Beakers were Dinaroid, meaning that Albanians and other Dinaroid populations will resemble them much more than Iberians.

[Kanuni]

Well, i think even the Basques are not similar to early Bell Beakers since they probably looked too WestAsian/MENA at early stage.

The closest one to appearance would come the North Mesopotamian/ EastAnatolian Taurids.

[morski]

The Bell Beaker group is more extreme in many ways; the browridges are often heavy, the general ruggedness frequently greater. The faces are characteristically narrow, the orbits medium to high, the nasal skeleton high and aquiline; the occiput frequently flat. The stature for six males reached the high mean of 177 cm.

So, like this fellow?

http://content7.flixster.com/photo/11/28/01/11280173_ori.jpg

http://www.nowhavefun.com/celebritypictures/d/140141-1/27+Sean+Bean+picture.jpg

[Ibericus]

I know that. Yet the Bell Beakers were Dinaroid, meaning that Albanians and other Dinaroid populations will resemble them much more than Iberians.
Bell Beakers were R1b folk, there is 90% of R1b in Basques while only 15% in Albania.

[Kanuni]

Much of the Coon material is laughable. I find it interesting that, despite the fact that much of what he posited has been discredited, people still reference the guy.:rolleyes2:

Dienekes quoted him.I suppose he is laughable to you too.:rolleyes2:

Anyway,R1b in Western Europe is because of founder effect/genetic drift they didn't left much of autosomal impact.In WestAsia/Northern Mesopotamia the diversity is higher and the clades are older.So it is obviously that they will resemble more the early Bell Beakers.

[Panopticon]

Bell Beakers were R1b folk, there is 90% of R1b in Basques while only 15% in Albania.

16% for Albania, for Albanians in general: about 20%. That's not important though, we're discussing phenotype not Y-DNA. If the case was Y-DNA you would have been right, however. And in that case, Albanians are characteristically close to the Bell Beakers in many ways, especially the Cranium is quite similar to that of the Bell Beakers. Probably due to the selection of Dinaroid traits that had perhaps been introduced by the Bell Beakers but which is also favourable for a mountainous area, at least the same evolutionary tendencies.

[Prince Carlo]

16% for Albania, for Albanians in general: about 20%. That's not important though, we're discussing phenotype not Y-DNA. If the case was Y-DNA you would have been right, however. And in that case, Albanians are characteristically close to the Bell Beakers in many ways, especially the Cranium is quite similar to that of the Bell Beakers. Probably due to the selection of Dinaroid traits that had perhaps been introduced by the Bell Beakers but which is also favourable for a mountainous area, at least the same evolutionary tendencies.

Man wake up! The CI can change in a couple of generation. DNA is what really matters.

[Panopticon]

Man wake up! The CI can change in a couple of generation. DNA is what really matters.

Sure. But how hard is it to get that Albanians show Dinaroid features similar to Bell Beakers? Are you vaccinated against contextual comprehension? The only argument is that the phenotypes among Albanians are similar to the phenotypes of the Bell Beakers. Agrippa seems to claim that at least. This does not imply a strong genetic continuation between the two, however.

[Anthropologique]

Dienekes quoted him.I suppose he is laughable to you too.:rolleyes2:

Anyway,R1b in Western Europe is because of founder effect/genetic drift they didn't left much of autosomal impact.In WestAsia/Northern Mesopotamia the diversity is higher and the clades are older.So it is obviously that they will resemble more the early Bell Beakers.

Well, Dienekes uses him for comparative purposes. I really doubt he agrees with much of what Coon wrote.

[Ibericus]

Anyway,R1b in Western Europe is because of founder effect/genetic drift they didn't left much of autosomal impact.
It's imposible to not left autosomal impact, when we are talking about 60-70% of paternal lineages in Western Europe ! In fact, there is a high correlation between R1b and the autosomal components like Western-Euro or Atlanto-Med

[Anthropologique]

Sure. But how hard is it to get that Albanians show Dinaroid features similar to Bell Beakers? Are you vaccinated against contextual comprehension? The only argument is that the phenotypes among Albanians are similar to the phenotypes of the Bell Beakers. Agrippa seems to claim that at least. This does not imply a strong genetic continuation between the two, however.

Where's the evidence?

[Ibericus]

Sure. But how hard is it to get that Albanians show Dinaroid features similar to Bell Beakers? Are you vaccinated against contextual comprehension? The only argument is that the phenotypes among Albanians are similar to the phenotypes of the Bell Beakers. Agrippa seems to claim that at least. This does not imply a strong genetic continuation between the two, however.
But if Bell Beakers are so similar to Albanians, why they weren't part of the Bell Beaker Culture ? Sounds surrealistic.

[Kanuni]

Well, Dienekes uses him for comparative purposes. I really doubt he agrees with much of what Coon wrote.

He quoted only the part of description of Bell Beaker remains.Anyway i didn't quote solely Coon or implying something.You are free to disclaim anything.

And i disagree with you R1b==Atlantic.It is obviously that they were WestAsian intruders so their autosomal diluted by time by breeding with local womens.

By the way i don't agree that Albanians would be the closest to Bell Beakers.That is far fetched IMO.

[Anthropologique]

Bell Beaker had nothing to do with Albania or other Balkan regions. It was mainly a Western European cultural phenomenon.

[Panopticon]

Where's the evidence?

Archaeological evidence. Bell Beaker remains were primarily Dinaroid-Cromagnoid.


Bell Beaker had nothing to do with Albania or other Balkan regions. It was mainly a Western European cultural phenomenon.

Bell Beaker populations did actually penetrate into the Balkans. No, it was not part of the Bell Beaker culture, but that Bell Beaker element did travel to the Balkans. Along with it came that basically Dinaroid-Cromagnoid element of the Bell Beakers. It is worth to mention that while the Bell Beakers also came to the Balkans, the Bell Beakers also were in Central Europe through which that Bell Beaker element has further influenced the Balkans.

http://www.bris.ac.uk/archanth/staff/heyd/Krakow1.pdf


But if Bell Beakers are so similar to Albanians, why they weren't part of the Bell Beaker Culture ? Sounds surrealistic.

They were influenced by it. I explain that above and I included a pdf which speaks of archaeological evidence of Bell Beaker presence in the Balkans.

To lay this down. The original statement was that Albanians are the population that is the closest to the old Bell Beakers in phenotype. The Bell Beakers were basically Dinaroid-Cromagnoid, therefore the premise is that for the Albanians to be close to the Bell Beakers by phenotype they would have had to be a basically Dinaroid-Cromagnoid population, which they are.

[Ibericus]

Bell Beaker populations did actually penetrate into the Balkans. No, it was not part of the Bell Beaker culture, but that Bell Beaker element did travel to the Balkans. .
Man, you are contradicting yourself. If the Bell Beaker populations penetrated into the Balkans, that means the Bell Beakers was not related to balkans.

[Anthropologique]

Archaeological evidence. Bell Beaker remains were primarily Dinaroid-Cromagnoid.



Bell Beaker populations did actually penetrate into the Balkans. No, it was not part of the Bell Beaker culture, but that Bell Beaker element did travel to the Balkans. Along with it came that basically Dinaroid-Cromagnoid element of the Bell Beakers. It is worth to mention that while the Bell Beakers also came to the Balkans, the Bell Beakers also were in Central Europe through which that Bell Beaker element has further influenced the Balkans.

http://www.bris.ac.uk/archanth/staff/heyd/Krakow1.pdf


They were influenced by it. I explain that above and I included a pdf which speaks of archaeological evidence of Bell Beaker presence in the Balkans.

To lay this down. The original statement was that Albanians are the population that is the closest to the old Bell Beakers in phenotype. The Bell Beakers were basically Dinaroid-Cromagnoid, therefore the premise is that for the Albanians to be close to the Bell Beakers by phenotype they would have had to be a basically Dinaroid-Cromagnoid population, which they are.

Western Iberia, where the oldest Bell Beakers sites are located, has many people with Cro-Magnon traits.

[Kanuni]

It's imposible to not left autosomal impact, when we are talking about 60-70% of paternal lineages in Western Europe ! In fact, there is a high correlation between R1b and the autosomal components like Western-Euro or Atlanto-Med

Wrong again.R1b has bigger diversity in Anatolia,don't make me use ad nauseum this arguments,and they lack the WestEuropean component.

The autosomal DNA can be diluted with couple of generation through breeding with local women.I don't see why it is impossible.

I know it is hard to accept that your grand grand grand father was a brown Anatolian annihilating the local people with a doner sword but anyway.:coffee:

[Ibericus]

Wrong again.R1b has bigger diversity in Anatolia,don't make me use ad nauseum this arguments,and they lack the WestEuropean component.

The autosomal DNA can be diluted with couple of generation through breeding with local women.I don't see why it is impossible.

I know it is hard to accept that your grand grand grand father was a brown Anatolian annihilating the local people with a doner sword but anyway.:coffee:
I never said that R1b is of european origin. What Im saying is that these R1b folk in Western-Europe , due to mixing with previous mesolithic populations and due to genetic drift, because W.Europe is a cul-de-sac, created their own autosomal components with time, such as the Western-Euro or Atlantic, otherwise explain me why these programs like Admixture creates these type of components in Europe, what are they made of if not R1b folk ??

[Panopticon]

Man, you are contradicting yourself. If the Bell Beaker populations penetrated into the Balkans, that means the Bell Beakers was not related to balkans.

I'm not even claiming that the Balkans was part of the Bell Beaker culture. And this doesn't contradict me at all, you would have understood that if you had understood anything to begin with. Yes, they penetrated into the Balkans, and due to selection of Dinaroid traits, the basic element of the Balkans (in particular Western Balkans) is Dinaroid.


Western Iberia, where the oldest Bell Beakers sites are located, has many people with Cro-Magnon traits.

That's not necessarily the same. Bell Beakers craniums were large, brachycephal and characteristically often with a flat occiput. As far as I know, that hardly exists in Iberia. The Bell Beaker being essentially Dinaroid has a close relationship to Dinarids.

If you don't understand what the other part is saying, we even discuss with him to begin with? You clearly have problems with what I'm saying because neither of you understood what I was talking about and you were basically arguing with straw-men.

[Anthropologique]

Archaeological evidence. Bell Beaker remains were primarily Dinaroid-Cromagnoid.



Bell Beaker populations did actually penetrate into the Balkans. No, it was not part of the Bell Beaker culture, but that Bell Beaker element did travel to the Balkans. Along with it came that basically Dinaroid-Cromagnoid element of the Bell Beakers. It is worth to mention that while the Bell Beakers also came to the Balkans, the Bell Beakers also were in Central Europe through which that Bell Beaker element has further influenced the Balkans.

http://www.bris.ac.uk/archanth/staff/heyd/Krakow1.pdf



They were influenced by it. I explain that above and I included a pdf which speaks of archaeological evidence of Bell Beaker presence in the Balkans.

To lay this down. The original statement was that Albanians are the population that is the closest to the old Bell Beakers in phenotype. The Bell Beakers were basically Dinaroid-Cromagnoid, therefore the premise is that for the Albanians to be close to the Bell Beakers by phenotype they would have had to be a basically Dinaroid-Cromagnoid population, which they are.

Are you saying that the Balkan region was influenced by Bell Beaker culture over time? What corpus of research is there that proffers evidence of a pattern of long-distance exchange between the core Bell Beaker peoples in the west and Balkan populations?

South-west Europe (Iberia and Southern and Western France) is majority Atlantic in phenotype, with some clear Paleo and CM influences (specifically in far western regions.) If the first Bell Beakers had a major Dinarid element, why do we find so little of it today in the Atlantic zone?

[Panopticon]

Are you saying that the Balkan region was influenced by Bell Beaker culture over time? What corpus of research is there that proffers evidence of a pattern of long-distance exchange between the core Bell Beaker peoples in the west and Balkan populations?

As I showed in the earlier post, there has indeed been archaeological evidence of the presence of Bell Beakers in the Balkans. That's not the point, however. The basic Dinaroid-Cromagnoid element that came with the Bell Beakers came to the Balkans, settled for the most part in the mountainous regions and the Dinaroid traits in particular were further selected for.

I'm not arguing that the Balkans were part of the Bell Beaker culture, although obviously influenced by it. I'm arguing that phenotypically, they have the elements that are the most similar to each other; Dinaroid in particular and Cromagnoid.


South-west Europe (Iberia and Southern and Western France) is majority Atlantic in phenotype, with some clear Paleo and CM influences (specifically in far western regions.) If the first Bell Beakers had a major Dinarid element, why do we find so little of it today in the Atlantic zone?

Because of selective pressures. Those traits weren't selected for in Iberia and are therefore not common. Ancestral genes don't correlate with phenotype.

[Anthropologique]

As I showed in the earlier post, there has indeed been archaeological evidence of the presence of Bell Beakers in the Balkans. That's not the point, however. The basic Dinaroid-Cromagnoid element that came with the Bell Beakers came to the Balkans, settled for the most part in the mountainous regions and the Dinaroid traits in particular were further selected for.

I'm not arguing that the Balkans were part of the Bell Beaker culture, although obviously influenced by it. I'm arguing that phenotypically, they have the elements that are the most similar to each other; Dinaroid in particular and Cromagnoid.



Because of selective pressures. Those traits weren't selected for in Iberia and are therefore not common. Ancestral genes don't correlate with phenotype.

Yes, selective pressures, of course. Still, it is puzzling that Dinaric types are today encountered so infrequently in Iberia, if it's true that the original Bell Beaker peoples were a blend of Dinarid and Cro-Magnon.

[Panopticon]

Yes, selective pressures, of course. Still, it is puzzling that Dinaric types are today encountered so infrequently in Iberia, if it's true that the original Bell Beaker peoples were a blend of Dinarid and Cro-Magnon.

I'm not completely sure, are you being ironic? Selection is always a very important factor, it's the most important reason as to why all different populations look like they do.

The examinations of Bell Beaker remains have shown that the Bell Beakers were in fact Dinaroid-Cromagnoid.

[Damião de Góis]

Bell Beakeroid (Dinaroid)

How do you know this? Bell Beaker culture are from 2800 – 1800 BC.

[Panopticon]

How do you know this? Bell Beaker culture are from 2800 – 1800 BC.

Examinations of skeletons from burial grounds done by several anthropologists.

[Insuperable]

You all are puzzled why some look and morphology is present in Iberia and in Britain and in the Balkans by arguing about Dinarids and Cromagnoids, arguing based on an extinct anthropology. You will get far.;)

There is about tons of liferature out there about nations history and prehistory based on genetic data.
You live in stone age.
Horten wants to prove that we all are connected with Albanians:D

[Damião de Góis]

Examinations of skeletons from burial grounds done by several anthropologists.

Coon and Gunther? I'm not sure if they should be quoted... i don't think modern anthropologists use terms like "Dinaric". Also, i have no idea of what skeletons they examined (if any), but this doesn't make sense if we look at where Bell Beaker culture was widespread:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Beaker_culture.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

[Dilberth]

Dinarization is a process,it's not really well established type.

[Dilberth]

Btw you who dismiss racial anthropology should not write on this subforum.

[Damião de Góis]

Btw you who dismiss racial anthropology should not write on this subforum.

I just said it was outdated. But i could be wrong, feel free to show me modern physical anthropologists. What i meant was that if skeletons were found now, they wouldn't be "classified", and i doubt people are taught how to classify on anthropology courses at university.

[gold_fenix]

well baskid for example have strong dinaric features but they are dolicocephalic , all these teories fail with a genetical problem, the basques the second people in Europe with highest often of R1b, null autosomal DNA in West Asian or SA component and they the oldest in Europe, either we have to forget that the oldest hominid rest in Europe come from Iberia

[Dilberth]

I just said it was outdated. But i could be wrong, feel free to show me modern physical anthropologists. What i meant was that if skeletons were found now, they wouldn't be "classified", and i doubt people are taught how to classify on anthropology courses at university.

It is not the question is it outdated or not,question is why bother writting on anhropology section if you dismiss it?My post wasn't dirrected to you but to Solin.

[Panopticon]

You all are puzzled why some look and morphology is present in Iberia and in Britain and in the Balkans by arguing about Dinarids and Cromagnoids, arguing based on an extinct anthropology. You will get far.;)

There is about tons of liferature out there about nations history and prehistory based on genetic data.
You live in stone age.

Anthropology isn't as worthless as you deem it to be. There clearly are certain morphological traits that correlate together, call it Dinarid or whatever you want to, but those traits are still going to be there. The argument was an anthropological one, so please, try going through this before you reply.


Horten wants to prove that we all are connected with Albanians:D

I don't. The original claim that Albanians are closest to Bell Beakers phenotypically is not mine either. Agrippa claimed that, but I guess your usual inexpressive opinions are better.

Try posting something constructive for a change.


Coon and Gunther? I'm not sure if they should be quoted... i don't think modern anthropologists use terms like "Dinaric". Also, i have no idea of what skeletons they examined (if any), but this doesn't make sense if we look at where Bell Beaker culture was widespread:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Beaker_culture.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

Yes, Coon and Guenther. :D You can call it Dinarid, x, y or whatever, but the traits related to certain types will still be the same.

The Bell Beakers did find their way to the Balkans, however. That seems to be agreed on. http://www.bris.ac.uk/archanth/staff/heyd/Krakow1.pdf

The Bell Beaker populations of Central Europe probably went further down south to the Balkans. It's clear that Central Europe influenced the Balkans regions, not only the Bell Beakers but several other cultures.

But let's say that the Bell Beakers had a Dinaroid and Cromagnoid element, then the premise would be that for Albanians to resemble the Bell Beakers phenotypically, then they would need to have those basic phenotypes.

They do have those basic elements, actually the Dinarid element is very strong and the Cromagnoid element is rather strong as well. And certain traits are found especially among Albanians: brachycephal skulls with flattened occiputs.

It isn't even necessary for the Bell Beakers to have influenced that region (which they actually did), the only thing necessary is the selection of Dinaroid traits for the development of such a type, independently of the Bell Beakers or not.

Just let me make this clear, the argument isn't whether Albanians are the closest to the Bell Beakers in terms of genetics, culture, etc., the argument is that there is a possibility of phenotypical resemblance greater than any other population.

[Ibericus]

But it's not even sure the Bell Beaker culture consisted of a uniform popultion, but instead we could be talking of different populations participating of that culture. We only have one R1b tested, and is from Germany.

[Sikeliot]

Bell Beaker culture would likely be related to the Paleolithic Southern European components we find in genetic analysis/West Med/Basque type genes.

[Dilberth]

They do have those basic elements, actually the Dinarid element is very strong and the Cromagnoid element is rather strong as well. And certain traits are found especially among Albanians: brachycephal skulls with flattened occiputs.

Those racial caracteristics are found in some South Slavic populations as well.But I guess they are Albanians in denial.

[Panopticon]

But it's not even sure the Bell Beaker culture consisted of a uniform popultion, but instead we could be talking of different populations participating of that culture. We only have one R1b tested, and is from Germany.

That's true. This would probably have had to be specified to certain populations. It's not likely that the Bell Beaker culture which existed over a very large area was uniform.

[Kanuni]

Those racial caracteristics are found in some South Slavic populations as well.But I guess they are Albanians in denial.

As much as i don't agree with Horten or Agrippas claim i think you are trying to put words at him.

This is what he said



It isn't even necessary for the Bell Beakers to have influenced that region (which they actually did), the only thing necessary is the selection of Dinaroid traits for the development of such a type, independently of the Bell Beakers or not.

Just let me make this clear, the argument isn't whether Albanians are the closest to the Bell Beakers in terms of genetics, culture, etc., the argument is that there is a possibility of phenotypical resemblance greater than any other population.

O.T Those guys were probably highly patriarchal i doubt they could have included foreigners at their group.Anyway more testing of ancient remains would clear things out.

[Breedingvariety]

O.T Those guys were probably highly patriarchal i doubt they could have included foreigners at their group.
I think you meant chauvinistic.

[Insuperable]

I just said it was outdated. But i could be wrong, feel free to show me modern physical anthropologists. What i meant was that if skeletons were found now, they wouldn't be "classified", and i doubt people are taught how to classify on anthropology courses at university.

There are many physical anthropologists because modern physical anthropology has nothing to do with racial or physical anthropology studied on forums by people who are even 16 years old

[Dilberth]

Racial anthropology was banned after ww2 for we all know what reasons.

[Insuperable]

Btw you who dismiss racial anthropology should not write on this subforum.

I simply gave an advice. Why bother with something outdated when many questions are already answered by other means?

[Insuperable]

Racial anthropology was banned after ww2 for we all know what reasons.

but then we did not have advanced genetic science as now, did we?

[Dilberth]

but then we did not have advanced genetic science as now, did we?

I said racial antropology was dismissed because it was not politically correct.Genetic science was not advanced when that happened,just after ww2.

[Ibericus]

Racial anthropology was banned after ww2 for we all know what reasons.
A lot of racial anthorpology has been debunked thanks to genetics.

[Insuperable]

I said racial antropology was dismissed because it was not politically correct.Genetic science was not advanced when that happened,just after ww2.

It was however still studies way after ww2. Coon?

Anyway in many cases there are no correlations between classifications morphology and genetics. So fuck that.
I have already explained why so many times.

Do I have to remind you what it is said in the first paragraph?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_race
.........rejected............

[Dilberth]

Modern science, especially biological anthropology is full of non-logic, political correct absurds. For example most modern
anthropologist don't belive in separate human races.
Using wikipedia as source?lol.
Anyway,I simply can't understand if you dismiss racial anthropology,why you write on this subforum at all?
You could chase girls instead.

[Transhumanist]

Man wake up! The CI can change in a couple of generation. DNA is what really matters.

I was ignorant to just how true this was, until fairly recently. You are not exaggerating. It can change in a matter of just a few generations.

[Insuperable]

Modern science, especially biological anthropology is full of non-logic, political correct absurds. For example most modern
anthropologist don't belive in separate human races.
Using wikipedia as source?lol.
You could chase girls instead.

How can you say that modern anthropology is full of non-logic based on pure wishes. People go to 8 years in college and some enter history and people want to go versus them because they do not agree with them simply based on pure wishes.

It is very much important to understand what does that mean when they say that they do not believe in separate human races.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics#Lewontin.27s_argument_and_critic ism
Read that better and you will see that there are differences between what we call races.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Human_genetic_diversity:_Lewontin%27s_fallacy%2 2_%28scientific_paper%29
You can see that modern genetics do start to define the concept of race or human subrace or human race ( White, Black... ) or whatever you want.

When people do a dna test you will actually get a percentages of how many European, how many African based on genetic distances. Wow this politically incorrect science actually allows us to define genetic distance, just wow.
WHAT MORE DO PEOPLE WANT?

I am simply arguing that the concept of European subraces in many cases has no correlation with genetics and indeed it has not.
As I have said on some other thread before people have developed algorithms with variables such as temperature, elevation, pressure which can predict changes on human morphology and/or genetics and therefore too narrow classifications are not valid.
I just find it funny that people who are scientifically illeterate always want to counterargument people who go up to 8 years on college.


Anyway,I simply can't understand if you dismiss racial anthropology,why you write on this subforum at all?

I do not know why people are wasting their brain power on this when there is much much much more precise tool. Why not waste brain power there?
Too hard? It is much easier to look at people?

I simply gave an perfectly valid advice as I have said in previous posts.

[Dilberth]

You should make a thread about correlation of modern anthropology and subraces.This was discussed on another thread,it was offtopic,and it's offtopic here.
If I wouldn't believe in existance of subraces,I wouldn't be comming to this subforum at all.

[Prince Carlo]

I was ignorant to just how true this was, until fairly recently. You are not exaggerating. It can change in a matter of just a few generations.

Local environmental conditions can have a significant impact on the development of head shape.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalic_index

[Anthropologique]

I just said it was outdated. But i could be wrong, feel free to show me modern physical anthropologists. What i meant was that if skeletons were found now, they wouldn't be "classified", and i doubt people are taught how to classify on anthropology courses at university.

"Physical anthropology" currently exists as biological anthropology. It focuses more on forensics and relies heavily on autosomal DNA data. The typologies used habitually in the 19th and parts of the 20th century to classify phenotypes no longer hold much validity in the discipline. Many categories have been redefined.

[Sikeliot]

I suspect they'd have been more Baskid than Dinarid proper.

[Kanuni]

I suspect they'd have been more Baskid than Dinarid proper.

Unlikely.I'll say none of Modern European ethnicities resemble them at their earlier stage.Albanians resembling them because their remains show Dinarization is a LOL.

[CelticViking]

Christopher Eccleston
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ee/Ninth_Doctor.jpg/200px-Ninth_Doctor.jpg


Felicity Ward

http://l.yimg.com/ea/img/-/090615/felicity-ward400-153bg4t.jpg

[Osprey]

http://newspaper.li/static/ac928f0b48258753c8889dd38b989429.png

[Libertas]

Beauties all!

[British-Wolf]

http://topnews.in/light/files/John-Lennon_10.jpg
John Lennon. Bell Beaker-Brunn

[sashahappy]

What is Bell Beaker?

[sashahappy]

Interesting type.

[Sisak]

Coon and Gunther? I'm not sure if they should be quoted... i don't think modern anthropologists use terms like "Dinaric". Also, i have no idea of what skeletons they examined (if any), but this doesn't make sense if we look at where Bell Beaker culture was widespread:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Beaker_culture.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

Belly bakers were imitators of Vuchedol culture.

[d3cimat3d]

http://newspaper.li/static/ac928f0b48258753c8889dd38b989429.png

This dude is way to short to be a Bell-Beaker. They were tall Dinarids from what I gathered.

[Caismeachd]

Billy Connolly always comes to mind whenever I think of Bell Beaker.

http://bbc.co.uk/iplayer/images/episode/p00948dt_640_360.jpg

http://bill-mcfarland.com/billyconnolly.jpg

[Leon_C]

I definitely think I have bell beaker infleunce after reading this since my occiput is almost flat and I have borreby type cromagnid influence. I think my father is a good example of a Borreby Keltic/Dinaric Bell beaker type, if I can get a photo I will post it.

[Leon_C]

http://i.imgur.com/ukWaf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H6HES.jpg

I think super Hans and Richard Armitage are slightly bell beaker influenced North Atlantids, their Dinaric component looks quite different from the typical Balkan Dinarid, both are mesocephalic but do not looks keltic.

[Neuron]

Heard somewhere they resemble Dinarics.

[Awesomedy]

Would you say their a blend of either Keltic-Nordid + Norid or Keltic-Nordid + Paleo-Atlantid?

[Anthropologique]

Would you say their a blend of either Keltic-Nordid + Norid or Keltic-Nordid + Paleo-Atlantid?

I would bet primarily Paleo Atlantic.

[Holokosten]

So are a lot of Brits dinaric?

[Grab the Gauge]

Yes. They were Borreby men.

[redeyednewt]

Bell Beakers were mostly R1b. I think that Basque are the most similar to them.



This makes sense to me. Bell Beaker graves has a lot of Mtdna haplos diversity.


Heard somewhere they resemble Dinarics.



I have read this as well, but I am not an expert in YDNA haplogroups, phenotypes, etc.

[Joso]

Archaeological evidence. Bell Beaker remains were primarily Dinaroid-Cromagnoid.



Bell Beaker populations did actually penetrate into the Balkans. No, it was not part of the Bell Beaker culture, but that Bell Beaker element did travel to the Balkans. Along with it came that basically Dinaroid-Cromagnoid element of the Bell Beakers. It is worth to mention that while the Bell Beakers also came to the Balkans, the Bell Beakers also were in Central Europe through which that Bell Beaker element has further influenced the Balkans.

http://www.bris.ac.uk/archanth/staff/heyd/Krakow1.pdf



They were influenced by it. I explain that above and I included a pdf which speaks of archaeological evidence of Bell Beaker presence in the Balkans.

To lay this down. The original statement was that Albanians are the population that is the closest to the old Bell Beakers in phenotype. The Bell Beakers were basically Dinaroid-Cromagnoid, therefore the premise is that for the Albanians to be close to the Bell Beakers by phenotype they would have had to be a basically Dinaroid-Cromagnoid population, which they are.

Stop with the retardedness, Basques also look dinaro-cromagnoids

[Boudin]

https://pmsol3.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/averageenglishman.jpg?w=584

You made this?

[Boudin]

As I have said on some other thread before people have developed algorithms with variables such as temperature, elevation, pressure which can predict changes on human morphology and/or genetics and therefore too narrow classifications are not valid.

Where could one read more about this?

[CordedWhelp]

Wouldn't the Irish be the closest to "pure" Beaker-folk? Grace O'Malley, where are you!?