... Balkan Turks, who are they and where did they come from?

[poiuytrewq0987]

Do you believe they are mostly Anatolian settlers who moved to the Balkans when the Ottomans conquered the region or do you think they are by large Turkified/Ottomanized Balkanoids?

[Hurrem sultana]

A mix,,,probably they have some turkish blood,but balkanians dominate

[Kanuni]

I'll go with the second option.They are mostly Turkophile Balkanoids.

[Archduke]

They are Turkified Balkanoids. Onur is perfect example.

[Onur]

Not all of them can be turkified balkanites because the historical records mentions about the wave of migrations of semi nomadic Turks from Anatolia to Balkans and it`s something understandable because i am sure they liked the green pastures of Bulgaria and Romania for their flocks.

The toponymy in Balkans, the names of the towns, territories also supports this because there are a lot of town, village names related with yoruk turkmen groups. Actually there was many more in macedonia but Greece changed most of them after 1930s.

I believe in early times, these turks probably mixed with Vlachs at most. It`s quite likely that some Vlachs were originally Bulgar, Pecheneg, Hungarian and later Cuman nomads who got later assimilated with Latin tongue by Romans.

Historians Ovid Densusianu and Konstantin Jirecek considered that Megleno-Romanians descended from a mixture of Romanians with Pecenegs, settled in Moglen by the Byzantine Emperor Alexios I Komnenos in 1091.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megleno-Romanians
It wouldn't be surprise that after Yoruks came to Balkans from Anatolia, they intermarried with them because their lifestyle was same, breeding flocks and wandering around Balkans for greener pastures.

Ofc they are mixed with Bulgarians, Macedonians too but it`s obvious that who was the predominant group among them from their mothertongue. I mean the Torbesh in Macedonia speaks Macedonian, Pomaks speaks Bulgarian but the rest of the majority speaks Turkish.

[Talvi]

My bf is a turk from Balkan, but I think he is more turkish...

[Onur]

My bf is a turk from Balkan, but I think he is more turkish...
Talvi, just don't mind the Balkanites because you know, they have tendency to disregard all the Turkish elements in Balkans in every case.

[Kanuni]

Talvi, just don't mind the Balkanites because you know, they have tendency to disregard all the Turkish elements in Balkans in every case.

I know some people who consider Turkish themself.Actually i know two brothers one of them was calling himself staunch Turkish while his brother said stfu he even mentioned the tribe which they hail.:coffee:

[Pecheneg]

grandsons of hundreds of thousands of nomadic Turkish settlers from anatolia (konya, karaman, sivas, dulkadir etc regions) with balkan admixture.

[Pecheneg]

The conquest of the Balkans by the Ottomans set in motion important population movements, which modified the ethnic and religious composition of the conquered territories. This demographic restructuring was accomplished through colonization of strategic areas of the Balkans with Turks brought over from Anatolia, establishing a firm Turkish Muslim base for further conquests in Europe. Ottoman Empire used colonization as a very effective method to consolidate their position and power in the Balkans. The colonizers that were brought to the Balkans consisted of diverse elements, including soldiers, nomads, farmers, artisans and merchants, dervishes, preachers and other religious functionaries, and administrative personnel. Among the earliest arrivals were large numbers of pastoral peoples such as the Yürüks, Turcomans (Oghuz Turks), Tatars from Anatolia and Crimean Tatars (Qaraei or Kara Tatar) led by their chieftain Aktav.[41] As the Ottomans expanded their conquests in the Balkans, they brought nomads from Anatolia and settled them along the main highways and in the surrounding mountain regions. Densely populated Turkish colonies were established in the frontier regions of Thrace, the Maritsa and the Tundzha valleys. The colonization policies already begun under Orhan were continued by his successors Murat I (1360–84) and Bayezit I (1389–1402). Additional colonists, mostly nomads again, were established along key transportation and communication routes in Thrace, Macedonia, and Thessaly. The Ottoman authorities maintained these nomads in their tribal organization through the sixteenth century and began to settle them only during the seventeenth century.

In addition to voluntary migrations, the Ottoman authorities used mass deportations (sürgün) as a method of control over potentially rebellious elements in the Balkans and in Anatolia. Far away form their home bases, the potential threat of such elements was considerably reduced as in the case of the followers of the rebellious Karamani Pir Ahmed. Tribal resistance was followed by large-scale transfers of Karamanid Türkmen nomads to Rumelia. Deportations in both directions occurred throughout the fourteenth, fifteenth, and sixteenth centuries.

Seeing them as 100% Turkified balkanites is typical loser syptom.
Simply, people don't want to believe that they conquered and ruled by Turks for centuries.

[Rastko]

''Turks'' are heteregenous people anyways.

[Onur]

Seeing them as 100% Turkified balkanites is typical loser syptom.
Simply, people don't want to believe that they conquered and ruled by Turks for centuries.
Yes. This is a typical nature of losers. It`s like a traumatized person willingly losing his short term memory. Thats why butthurt Balkanites disregards anything related with Turks.


''Turks'' are heteregenous people anyways.
If we are not talking about some isolated peoples like Amazon tribes then every nation in the world are heterogeneous but the difference is some of them expresses this fact without any hesitance while others claims to be homogenous due to their own insecurities.

[Il Principe]

They are mostly Balkan locals who were under Ottoman occupation, fell victim to a collective Stockholm Syndrome, and started identifying with their rapists.

[purple]

Many Turks I've seen and personally know do not look like Turks at all. Or at least they are very, very different from the Turks from Turkey. It's possible that some Turks in Bulgaria are not Turks at all. That's my opinion:thumb001:

[Lithium]

Many Turks I've seen and personally know do not look like Turks at all. Or at least they are very, very different from the Turks from Turkey. It's possible that some Turks in Bulgaria are not Turks at all. That's my opinion:thumb001:

Same here, I have a friend who is has a Turkish name but she isn't religious at all. You can't even guess that she or someone from her family is Turkish just by looking at them.

[safinator]

They are mostly Balkan locals who were under Ottoman occupation, fell victim to a collective Stockholm Syndrome, and started identifying with their rapists.
Pretty much.

[Pecheneg]

They are mostly Balkan locals who were under Ottoman occupation, fell victim to a collective Stockholm Syndrome, and started identifying with their rapists.
said, germanicized cro-magnon.

[Kanuni]

said, germanicized cro-magnon.

:bowlol: Since when Cro-magnon is ethnicity!?

[Pecheneg]

This is hypocrisy, most people in here considered pontian greeks as "pure hellenes", while they are culturally, genetically, physically different (simply hellenicized caucaso-black sea people).
Hundreds of thousands of anatolian Turks placed in balkans by Ottomans (very well documented in ottoman archival datas).
ofc they mixed with local balkanites a lot, it doesn't make them assimilated balkanites.

[Pecheneg]

so where are the descendants of Karamanid Turkish tribes, Kara-Tatars of Aktav bey, nomadic Sarı Saltuk Turks etc. in balkans ? :rolleyes:

[Il Principe]

said, germanicized cro-magnon.

1. I do not belong to the Cro-Magnid sub-race.
2. There is no cultural or ethnic group called "Cro-Magnon".
3. The Germanic peoples, as a distinct meta-ethnic group, did not yet exist during the Cro-Magnon stage.
3. The education system in Turkey is clearly lacking.

[Insuperable]

Do not believe what Onur says. He actually thinks that Hungarians are Turks in denial.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51881&page=26
He did not say it exactly but that is what he wants people to believe:D

[Midori]

He actually thinks that Hungarians are Turks in denial.

:pound:

[Onur]

This is hypocrisy, most people in here considered pontian greeks as "pure hellenes", while they are culturally, genetically, physically different (simply hellenicized caucaso-black sea people).
Hundreds of thousands of anatolian Turks placed in balkans by Ottomans (very well documented in ottoman archival datas).
ofc they mixed with local balkanites a lot, it doesn't make them assimilated balkanites.
Yes, this is the case.

If you listen to them, all the rulers who reigned upon them are mixed with unknown origins but all our subjects are supposedly pure descendants of ancient peoples :D

As for the case with Hungarians, they are supposedly the deluded local slavs. For the Turks, we are supposedly the deluded local Anatolians, Greeks or whatnot

Who are supposedly the mixed ones? It`s the rulers who reigned upon them for 500-1000 years. And who claims these things? It`s the subjects who only recently was able to form their own states.

I think you can see the irony here :rolleyes2:

[Sultan Suleiman]

Hundreds of thousands of anatolian Turks placed in balkans by Ottomans (very well documented in ottoman archival datas).
ofc they mixed with local balkanites a lot, it doesn't make them assimilated balkanites.

Good lolz mate :D

[Pecheneg]

Do not believe what Onur says. He actually thinks that Hungarians are Turks in denial.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51881&page=26
He did not say it exactly but that is what he wants people to believe:D
You love these genetic maps, don't you?
because it makes you feel relaxed.
"ohh, Magyars never existed, we never defeated and conquered by them".

[Insuperable]

You love these genetic maps, don't you?
because it's makes you feel relaxed.
"ohh, Magyars never existed, we never defeated and conquered by them".

More exact than Turkish babbling. A fact is a fact. 2+2=4. Autosomally and by haplogroups they have nothing to do with Turks. Get over it

[Pecheneg]

Good lolz mate :D

It's a truth my bosnian mate.
Almost whole Karamanids (they were greatest rivals of the ottomans in anatolia and a powerful Turkish state/beylik) deported to Balkans .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Bulgaria

DNA research investigating the three largest population groups in Bulgaria: Bulgarians, Bulgarian Turks and Gypsies confirms with Y-chromosomal STR haplotype analysis that there are significant differences between the three ethnic groups

and about Kara-Tatars of central anatolia (sivas-bozok)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qaraei

As part of the Ottoman Army under their chiefs Minnet Bey and Minnetoglu Mehmed-beg they settled in (Filibe, Bulgaria) and conquered Bosnia.

[Hayalet]

It's hard to say from a purely genetical point of view, as there had been people moving back and forth between Anatolia and the Balkans before Turks even arrived in these regions.

But Balkan Turks, like other Turks, usually have a family history of Turkish ancestors from some centuries ago and/or a place of origin with a Turkish population. So no, you can't dismiss them as if they are Turcophone natives.

[Archduke]

Honestly, i know only one turkish girl, which have turanid traits, other turks i know are dinarid or pontid.

[iNird]

They are mostly Balkan locals who were under Ottoman occupation, fell victim to a collective Stockholm Syndrome, and started identifying with their rapists.

Well said.

Turks in Macedonia:

Maybe a Turkish member knows who these two singers are?

kYeMCNc1yPE

In the 2nd video notice how the music is closer to Southern Albanian music :rolleyes2:

eAVhlfqmxPs


Turks in Kosovo:

jB7erW6NndE

Turks in Bulgaria

l6OgD9Cb_xQ

[Vukodav]

I have a Turkish friend who knows all his paternal ancestors by name back to some pasha from Anatolia. he looks like a Turk also, very similar to Pecheneg (if that was his pic on avatar). he is a Serb nationalist though, probably because he is a refugee from Kosovo.

[Onur]

Some Turkish families of Macedonia have their own family trees dating back to 1400s. Since you are from Macedonia, so you can read this article;
http://www.kanal5.com.mk/default.aspx?mId=37&egId=13&eventId=63647

How about you Balkanites claiming to be descendants of people from antiquity? Do you even know who was your grandfather`s father? Do you have any idea what kind of mongrel are you?


The video you linked for Kosova. This is the town called Mamusha, well known Turkish town for centuries. Did you know that when Serbs slaughtering Albanians in Kosova, around 50.000 Albanians took refuge into that small town in 1990s? The reason was the Serbs knew very well that it`s a Turkish town, so they were scared to attack to them, so it was a safe heaven for you Albos. Turks of Mamusha did that to prevent Serbs fcking your sisters or throw your mothers in to the dam.


I have to say that the Balkanites in this forum are the most disrespectful ignorant bunch i have ever seen. Quite ironic for me but the Albanian forumers are worst but Serbs appears to be the most reasonable ones.

[Grizzly]

Mainly Turkified Balkanoids. The ones I've encountered all look European, don't speak a lick of Turkish and identify as Turkish for personal benefits. I know one of these so called Turks and she's pale, blonde hair and doesn't speak a lick of Turkish.. Alot of them were also forced to identify as Turkish especially in Macedonia and Kosova where the Yugo government signed a deal with Turkey to lower the Albanian population.

[Grizzly]

I have to say that the Balkanites in this forum are the most disrespectful ignorant bunch i have ever seen. Quite ironic for me but the Albanian forumers are worst but Serbs appears to be the most reasonable ones.

You have got to be kidding me.. All of your posts are about how Turkey has some sort of connection/influence with country X and you babble about how super Turkey is. You have also said numerous times that the Balkans is a infection and must be wiped out, you're not the Sultan lol..

[iNird]

The video you linked for Kosova. This is the town called Mamusha, well known Turkish town for centuries. Did you know that when Serbs slaughtering Albanians in Kosova, around 50.000 Albanians took refuge into that small town in 1990s? The reason was the Serbs knew very well that it`s a Turkish town, so they were scared to attack to them, so it was a safe heaven for you Albos. Turks of Mamusha did that to prevent Serbs fcking your sisters or throw your mothers in to the dam.


Look I don't doubt there were refugees in Mamusha (do you have a source for 50,000? the town barely consists of 6,000 people) but you need to stop with these fallacies.

What importance is the refugees that these people have taken in when the topic on hand that deals with the origins of Balkan Turks? These people in Mamusha could be the most generous group to Albanians but it still does not deal with the topic on hand. You do this quite often, you go off topic and use some irrelevant point to prove your point. It would be like me bringing up some famous Albanians in Turkish history everytime you bashed Albanians and say you Turks are not grateful. Do you see the error of your ways? Or do I need to explain it further to you? Now I understand my stance is not much better because I used some youtube video, and I admit this it isn't much, but atleast I stayed on topic. Can you do the same? Otherwise STFU.




I have to say that the Balkanites in this forum are the most disrespectful ignorant bunch i have ever seen. Quite ironic for me but the Albanian forumers are worst but Serbs appears to be the most reasonable ones.

See the above. Stop these red herring arguments!

[Midori]

How about you Balkanites claiming to be descendants of people from antiquity? Do you even know who was your grandfather`s father? Do you have any idea what kind of mongrel are you?


My ancestors didn't mix with Turks for sure.

[Pecheneg]

I have a Turkish friend who knows all his paternal ancestors by name back to some pasha from Anatolia. he looks like a Turk also, very similar to Pecheneg (if that was his pic on avatar). he is a Serb nationalist though, probably because he is a refugee from Kosovo.
yes it was my pic, where is he from, i mean which region in Turkey?
Perhaps he is my distant relative :D

[Pecheneg]

Mainly Turkified Balkanoids. The ones I've encountered all look European, don't speak a lick of Turkish and identify as Turkish for personal benefits. I know one of these so called Turks and she's pale, blonde hair and doesn't speak a lick of Turkish.. Alot of them were also forced to identify as Turkish especially in Macedonia and Kosova where the Yugo government signed a deal with Turkey to lower the Albanian population.
did you read my previous posts about Turkish migration to balkans you fool? Phenotype can say nothing about their origins. Those people live there for near half a milennia as grandsons of their conqueror ancestors.
And none of them forced to identify themselves as "Turkish, they were already Turks. But some shithole countries tried to assimilate them in 21.century. Its interesting to see the huge difference between grateful diaspora shiptars of my country and you. :)

[Kanuni]

And none of them forced to identify themselves as "Turkish, they were already Turks. But some shithole countries tried to assimilate them in 21.century. Its interesting to see the huge difference between grateful diaspora shiptars of my country and you. :)

This grateful thing of yours is quite ridicilous and naive.Turks are not treated badly here too so you can make a comparison with Albanians in Turkey,anyway i have seen Albanians in Turkey they didn't act as they own anything to anyone,they respect Turks because they feel so.Onur's babbling are quite obvious.He holds a hatred toward Albanians and projects things in his mind.

[Pecheneg]

This grateful thing of yours is quite ridicilous and naive.Turks are not treated badly here too so you can make a comparison with Albanians in Turkey,anyway i have seen Albanians in Turkey they didn't act as they own anything to anyone,they respect Turks because they feel so.Onur's babbling are quite obvious.He holds a hatred toward Albanians and projects things in his mind.
Albanians of here can't represent the whole albanian nation, but you gave us some ideas about your mentality.
i have still no negative feelings against albanian nation(except i've lost my friendly perspective), but you, as extremist racialist albanians of TA are different case.You can't blame Onur for Albanian reaction. You were already same before Turkish migration to TA :) i've already seen posts of albanians about us before my registration.

[Vukodav]

@Pecheneg, my Turkish friend is from Kosovo. Ottoman leftover.
nice to see your trolling hamlet here btw.

[Mordid]

Hawt Turkicised Balkanoid chicks come from my bed.

[morski]

In the words of one of the last Ottomans, Midhat Pasha(1822-1884):

After I've been ruling for many years the Danube Vilayet, I'll now state some concerns about Bulgaria and Rumelia. First, one should keep in mind that among the Bulgarians, who attract so much attention as of lately, there is one milion muslims. They did not come from Asia to settle in Bulgaria as it is usually believed. They are descendants of those Bulgarians who were Islamicised during the take-over and subsequent years. They are children of the same land, from the same race, from the same root. There are some among them who speak only the Bulgarian language.

cyrD1SHt1PA

[poiuytrewq0987]

In the words of one of the last Ottomans, Midhat Pasha(1822-1884):

After I've been ruling for many years the Danube Vilayet, I'll now state some concerns about Bulgaria and Rumelia. First, one should keep in mind that among the Bulgarians, who attract so much attention as of lately, there is one milion muslims. They did not come from Asia to settle in Bulgaria as it is usually believed. They are descendants of those Bulgarians who were Islamicised during the take-over and subsequent years. They are children of the same land, from the same race, from the same root. There are some among them who speak only the Bulgarian language.

cyrD1SHt1PA

If that is true then Bulgaria is technically 94% Bulgarian not 83%.

[Ushtari]

But Balkan Turks, like other Turks, usually have a family history of Turkish ancestors from some centuries ago and/or a place of origin with a Turkish population. So no, you can't dismiss them as if they are Turcophone natives.
Nope, most "Turks" in Kosovo are Turkicized Albanians.

[Pecheneg]

In the words of one of the last Ottomans, Midhat Pasha(1822-1884):

After I've been ruling for many years the Danube Vilayet, I'll now state some concerns about Bulgaria and Rumelia. First, one should keep in mind that among the Bulgarians, who attract so much attention as of lately, there is one milion muslims. They did not come from Asia to settle in Bulgaria as it is usually believed. They are descendants of those Bulgarians who were Islamicised during the take-over and subsequent years. They are children of the same land, from the same race, from the same root. There are some among them who speak only the Bulgarian language.

cyrD1SHt1PA
I have 2 question for you;
1. Where are the the descendants of deported Karamanid Turks, Kara-Tatars of filibe and other Turkish tribes of bulgaria? Do you really believe that those people are 100% assimilated bulgarians, while Ottomans documented the Turkish migration to bulgaria.
2.If these two population are same, then can you explain me the significant genetic differences between Turks of bulgaria and Bulgarians?

[Archduke]

1. Where are the the descendants of deported Karamanid Turks, Kara-Tatars of filibe and other Turkish tribes of bulgaria? Do you really believe that those people are 100% assimilated bulgarians, while Ottomans documented the Turkish migration to bulgaria.

They mixed with balkanians just like ottoman sultans did. As you can see there is very big difference between Osman I and Mehmed VI.

[morski]

I have 2 question for you;
1. Where are the the descendants of deported Karamanid Turks, Kara-Tatars of filibe and other Turkish tribes of bulgaria? Do you really believe that those people are 100% assimilated bulgarians, while Ottomans documented the Turkish migration to bulgaria.
2.If these two population are same, then can you explain me the significant genetic differences between Turks of bulgaria and Bulgarians?

I don't deny the presence of Ottoman relics in Bulgaria like the various Tatars, Cherkez, Kizilbash etc., they are not Turks, however. The Turks are in Turkey where the Turkish nation was constructed by Mustafa Kemal. Those in Bulgaria are Islamized and Turkified Bulgarians, various steppe muslims, etc - Ottoman relics.

[Pecheneg]

I don't deny the presence of Ottoman relics in Bulgaria like the various Tatars, Cherkez, Kizilbash etc., they are not Turks, however.

Kara Tatars were a Turkic tribe from central anatolia and had nothing to do with present day Tatars. btw, other Tatars are also Turkic people.


Kara-Tatars of central anatolia (sivas-bozok)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qaraei

As part of the Ottoman Army under their chiefs Minnet Bey and Minnetoglu Mehmed-beg they settled in (Filibe, Bulgaria) and conquered Bosnia.

Qizilbash

Turcoman tribes from Eastern Anatolia and Azerbaijan who had helped Shah Ismail I defeat the Aq Qoyunlu tribe were by far the most important in both number and influence, and the name Kizilbash is usually applied exclusively to them. Some of these greater Turcoman tribes were subdivided into as many as eight or nine clans, and included:
Ustādjlu
Rumlu
Shamlu
Dulkadir tribe
Afshar
Qajar
Takkalu
Qizilbashs are simply Turks with alevi faith.





The Turks are in Turkey where the Turkish nation was constructed by Mustafa Kemal.
Bullshit. Anatolia is known as Turchia/Tourkia/Turkey (the land of the Turks) since 11th-12th centuries, because of presence of Turkish nation!


Those in Bulgaria are Islamized and Turkified Bulgarians, various steppe muslims, etc - Ottoman relics.
no they are not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Bulgaria

DNA research investigating the three largest population groups in Bulgaria: Bulgarians, Bulgarian Turks and Gypsies confirms with Y-chromosomal STR haplotype analysis that there are significant differences between the three ethnic groups


and this is the answer

The Turks in Bulgaria are descendants of Turkic settlers who came from Anatolia across the narrows of the Dardanelles and the Bosporus following the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans in the late 14th and early 15th centuries, as well as Bulgarian converts to Islam who became Turkified during the centuries of Ottoman rule.
bulgarian Turks = Turks from anatolia + Bulgarian converts.

[morski]

I'd stick with what Midhat Pasha said.

[Anatolian Eagle]

This grateful thing of yours is quite ridicilous and naive.Turks are not treated badly here too so you can make a comparison with Albanians in Turkey,anyway i have seen Albanians in Turkey they didn't act as they own anything to anyone,they respect Turks because they feel so.Onur's babbling are quite obvious.He holds a hatred toward Albanians and projects things in his mind.

Well one of my good friends is of Albanian origin and is from Tirana, he doesn't deny his origins and he isn't racist, so I can confirm the Albanian part in this post...

[Gospodine]

Balkan Turks are predominantly Islamicized Balkan peoples.

Sure there are some ethnic Turks that have been living in the Balkan peninsula for generations; nobody here would deny that Halil Mutlu is Turkish even though he's Bulgarian-born.

Western Turkey is full of the descendants of Balkan peoples from Rumelia Eyalet, who left after the first Balkan War in 1912 when the Ottomans lost 85% of their European territory.
Most of them however have had their ethnic history erased upon entry to Turkey, which to due naturalization laws forbids names ending in "ic" or "ov" for instance.

A good example is the Turkish basketball team, the majority of which are probably Balkan-descended given their well-above average height in Turkey.

Hedo Türkoğlu parent's are from Sjenica in Serbia and he still speaks Serbian.

[east]

Qizilbash

Qizilbashs are simply Turks with alevi faith.




I was born in village in Northeast Bulgaria. The village consists of two districts (mahale) - Kizilbash and Turkish. People from both districts vary in appearance. Kizilbashs are higher, light tain, between them you can see people with blue eyes and fair hair. Turkish district people profess orthodox Islam and they are short stature, swarthy, dark hair and eyes. Kizilbashs are more educated. Teachers in the village from Ottoman rule were from this district. Hundreds of years between two districts has no one intermarriage.
My grands told me many times that we came from Greater Khorasan. The road was nord round Black See.
So, here is live evidence, that Kizilbashs in Bulgaria do not came from Anatolia.
We know in Konya live couple mln alevi, but they are not same people as we are.:)

[Pecheneg]

Not true. Kizilbas are just Turkmen with alevi feith. With great possibility I am one of them.
I was born in village in Northeast Bulgaria. The village consists of two districts (mahale) - Kizilbash and Turkish. People from both districts vary in appearance. Kizilbashs are higher, light tain, between them you can see people with blue eyes and fair hair. Turkish district people profess orthodox Islam and they are short stature, swarthy, dark hair and eyes. Kizilbashs are more educated. Teachers in the village from Ottoman rule were from this district. Hundreds of years between two districts has no one intermarriage.
My grands told me many times that we came from Greter Khorasan. The road was nord round Black See.
So, here is live evidence, that Kizilbashs in Bulgaria do not came from Anatolia.

My people are very different from them too.:)
wtf are you talking about?
my hometown is Sivas in central anatolia, a region at least 15-20% of it's population are Kizilbash, so i know them better than you!
Kizilbash is sub-ethnicity of Turkish, just like the Manav, Yörük, Tahtacı, Avshar, Karakechili etc, stop spreading nonsense!
And i bet you are not a Kizilbash, but just an imposter!
Here, Turkish sub-ethnicities / Turkey

Gacal, Avşar, Yörük, Manav,Türkmen, Tahtacı, Kıpçak, Nogay, Cerit, Karapapak, Muhacır, Terekeme, Azeri, Özbek, Harzem, Çepni, Oğuz, Kırımçak, Karaçay, Balkar, Yıva, Begitli, Büğdüz, Bayat, Yazır,Eymür, Karabölük, Alkaevli, İğdir, Üreğir, Tukirka, Ulayundluğ, Tüger, Çavuldur, Çarukluğ, Kumuk, Karakalpak, Uygur, Ahıska,Salurlu, Yerli, Pallık, Aydınlı, Abdal,Üçok, Sıraç, Nalcı, Çaylak, Teber, Beydili, Barak, Karabağlı, Şaman, Şamlı, Torbeş, Bayındır, Kınık, Ortakçı, Amuca, Bedrettinli, Karamanlı, Kırım Tatarı, , Başkırt, Karakeçili, Sarıkeçili, Torlak,Kızılbaş, Peçenek, Çıtak, Zeybek, Sancaklı, Dobrucalı, Kıbrıslı.


We know in Konya live couple mln alevi, but they are not Kizilbash/Turkmen.
wrong! Konya has 2 million people and most of them are sunni muslim!

[east]

wtf are you talking about?
my hometown is Sivas in central anatolia, a region at least 15-20% of it's population are Kizilbash, so i know them better than you!
Kizilbash is sub-ethnicity of Turkish, just like the Manav, Yörük, Tahtacı, Avshar, Karakechili etc, stop spreading nonsense!
And i bet you are not a Kizilbash, but just an imposter!
Here, Turkish sub-ethnicities / Turkey

Imposter ? I tell you the name of this village , go check my words. Go there and you will find much eveidences that Turks in Northeast Bulgaria (Dobruja and Ludogorie) are not come from Anatolia.
I type you here a word which is not Bulgarian either other Balkan language, but used in Deliorman - "paysinmak". Tell me what means it ?

[Illirico]

The Turks are not a people racially homogeneous. Originally they were the original Turkic with featured mongols but then with their barbaric invasions on the European, North African and Middle-East lands, they have absorbed at least 80% of foreign blood. The Balkan Turks may be North African, South-European or Gypsy ancestry, there are various odds. Personally, based on the genetics of the Turks, I might conclude that also the Turks of Turkey are not more Turkish-Turkic original. A part of Their race(38%) come from the European part of the southern Slavs, Albanians, Romanians, Bulgarians and Greeks.

Albanians have turks descendents? No, Turks have some albanian blood.
A BBC news article said there is an estimated 5 million Albanian descended Turks in 1999 but A Turkish newspaper said something like 1 million+ 3years ago:rolleyes:

According to 2012 study the Turkish genetic structure is unique and the ancestry of the Turks is 38% European, 35% Middle Eastern (Not Turkic-Turanid), 18% South Asian and 9% Central Asia.
(Uğur Hodoğlugil and Robert W. Mahley - Turkish Population Structure and Genetic Ancestry Reveal Relatedness among Eurasian Populations, Annals of Human Genetics, March 2012, Volume 76, Issue 2, pg. 128-141. )

[Onur]

My grands told me many times that we came from Greater Khorasan. The road was nord round Black See.
So, here is live evidence, that Kizilbashs in Bulgaria do not came from Anatolia.
We know in Konya live couple mln alevi, but they are not same people as we are.:)
Whether you came to Bulgaria from Anatolia or from the north of Blacksea, kizilbash turkmen groups are core integral part of Turkish people. You cannot present the ones in Bulgaria as different from the ones in Anatolia.

What you claim here is something like saying "Bavarians are not Germans" Thats absurd!!!


Also, if you are a kizilbash, they why you cant/don't speak Turkish? A true kizilbash turkmen never gets assimilated in Bulgaria

[Azalea]

^Because he is obviously not a Qizilbash but a confused Bulgarian. Probably a Pomak or something.

[StonyArabia]

Qizilbash were Shia fanatic Turkmen tribes that were Persianized. There name comes from the Red hats. The movement has it's origins in the Kharumyia cult which was mixture of ancient Zoroastrian and Islamic believes. The Safavids of Iran had that origin they eventually forced everyone in the region into Shiais, and waged a 150 years war against the Ottomans who were Sunnis. The Qizilbash are hated in Iraq for example by Christian Assyrians and Arab Sunni Muslims. Qizilbash in the Balkans sounds far fetched but I guess anything is possible.

[rashka]

There's a popular Serbian singer called Sheki Turkovich. His name sounds Turkish :lol:

csktBK54eRY
8pPeUpcUF08

[east]

Whether you came to Bulgaria from Anatolia or from the north of Blacksea, kizilbash turkmen groups are core integral part of Turkish people. You cannot present the ones in Bulgaria as different from the ones in Anatolia.

What you claim here is something like saying "Bavarians are not Germans" Thats absurd!!!


Also, if you are a kizilbash, they why you cant/don't speak Turkish? A true kizilbash turkmen never gets assimilated in Bulgaria

Sayin Onur biz Turkce konusuyoruz. Difference is dialect. Deliorman dialect do not coincidents with no one spoken dialect in Anadola, neither Turkiye.

Also we are different visualy from alevii living in Turkiye. Only common thing is religion. My friends have been there and told me this. ;)

[east]

^Because he is obviously not a Qizilbash but a confused Bulgarian. Probably a Pomak or something.

Sen hakli olabilirsin.
There are three versions of origin of Kizilbashs in Northeast Bulgaria.
1. Origin - Greater Khorasan , most possible we are Turkmen, driven away from there
2. Other Turk ethnicity which came nord way round Black Sea, such Gagauz people
3. We are Asparukh Bulgars which last long time pagan and during Otoman rule became Alevi/Kizilbash

I repeat again we are different from Alevii in Turkey visualy, culturaly , folk traditions and ctr.

[Gospodine]

There's a popular Serbian singer called Sheki Turkovich. His name sounds Turkish :lol:

No, no it doesn't. Turkovic was a very common name given to Islamic converts in the Balkans.

In the Ottoman era, ethnicity was almost synonymous religion, hence the term "Turk" was used interchangeably with Muslim. It has no bearing on the man's actual ancestry which is probably Balkan and not Anatolian.

[Onur]

No, no it doesn't. Turkovic was a very common name given to Islamic converts in the Balkans.

In the Ottoman era, ethnicity was almost synonymous religion, hence the term "Turk" was used interchangeably with Muslim. It has no bearing on the man's actual ancestry which is probably Balkan and not Anatolian.
You are wrong. Ottoman authorities and soldiers left Serbia/Bosnia in 1860s. There was no surnames back then but there was only nicknames for people. The word "Turk" was never used as a nickname either.

These people in Serbia, Bosnia adopted these surnames long after Ottoman era, so we couldn't force them for anything. Turkovic means "son of a Turk" and probably he had a Turkish ancestor in the past.

Serbian christians used the term "Turk" interchangeably with Muslims but you cannot give this as a surname otherwise there should be a lot of families with this surname. Which one of the muslim families would get this Turkovic surname, all of them or only some?


I think we spoke this in another thread before. Bosnians who has Sipahi, Turkovic surnames most likely has Turkish ancestors and it`s something normal. Do you really think no Serbian/Bosnian ever married with a Turk during ~500 year old Ottoman reign?

[Gospodine]

Turkovic means "son of a Turk" and probably he had a Turkish ancestor in the past.

:rolleyes2: No sh*t Sherlock.


I think we spoke this in another thread before. Bosnians who has Sipahi, Turkovic surnames most likely has Turkish ancestors and it`s something normal. Do you really think no Serbian/Bosnian ever married with a Turk during ~500 year old Ottoman reign?

Of course they inter-married, but no where near to the degree that you're assuming or indeed most Turks do.

You cannot determine what previous male-line ancestor a patronymic surname refers to and when said ancestor entered the family tree.
It could be a dozen or more generations back. That doesn't make anyone Turkish.

The same way the ethnonym "Hrvati" doesn't imply the Croats are of Iranic descent, despite the fact the name is likely of Iranic origin.

Southern Slavic patronymics more often than not referred to the family's profession or occupation.

The Bosniak surname "Spahi" simply meant someone who served in the Ottoman Cavalry Corps, it does not equate to ethnic Turk admixture.

Same goes for names like Mulahalilovic, Izetbegovic or Hadzic/Hodzic; you did not have to be an ethnic Turk to be a Mullah, a Bey or to make the pilgrimage to Mecca.


Serbian christians used the term "Turk" interchangeably with Muslims but you cannot give this as a surname otherwise there should be a lot of families with this surname. Which one of the muslim families would get this Turkovic surname, all of them or only some?

The literal meaning is deceptive.

Just the same way the English surname "Brown" commonly referred to an ancestor with a dark complexion, the surname "Turkovic" or a name like "Arapovic" (Son of the Arab) were more often than not descriptive or metaphorical.

The Italians and Spaniards use the terms "Moreno"/"Moro" in a similar manner to refer to darker-complected people who are said to look like "Moors".
E.g. Ludovico "il Moro" Sforza: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovico_Sforza

Patronymics generally fall into 3 categories: Geographical origin, Occupational Origin and Andecdotic.

The Anecdotic kind are often simply perceptive and have little to no historical basis.

This is true for patronymical naming systems the world over from Russia to Arab countries.

[Hurrem sultana]

No, no it doesn't. Turkovic was a very common name given to Islamic converts in the Balkans.

In the Ottoman era, ethnicity was almost synonymous religion, hence the term "Turk" was used interchangeably with Muslim. It has no bearing on the man's actual ancestry which is probably Balkan and not Anatolian.

But you have people that know their trace back to Ottoman era,and they know their forefathers came from Turkey

[Gospodine]

But you have people that know their trace back to Ottoman era,and they know their forefathers came from Turkey

Please...

Very imaginative, delusional people usually... like the majority of Balkanci on here who desperately search for non-existent roots outside of the Balkans.

List some examples, by all means.

[Hurrem sultana]

Please...

Very imaginative, delusional people usually... like the majority of Balkanci on here who desperately search for non-existent roots outside of the Balkans.

List some examples, by all means.

No not really


family Izetbegovic
family Cengic
family Zulfikarpasic

[Onur]

You cannot determine what previous male-line ancestor a patronymic surname refers to and when said ancestor entered the family tree.

It could be a dozen or more generations back. That doesn't make anyone Turkish.
Yes you can determine or at least it gives you a clue about it.


The Bosniak surname "Spahi" simply meant someone who served in the Ottoman Cavalry Corps, it does not equate to ethnic Turk admixture.
You are wrong. Spahi cavalry units were exclusively selected from Turks. Read this thread;

www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44478&page=6


Well, this is interesting because sipahis were cavalry units of Ottoman army and Ali is a personal name. Spahi soldiers were exclusively selected from Turks. Some of the sipahi soldiers was being elected to be a timarli sipahi and they were getting the administration of big farms in all over Ottoman lands and their responsibility was breeding horses and store wheat and other agricultural products to provide it to the army when needed. For example, when the army starts it`s campaign, they were stopping over the timarli spahi farms, getting their food and changing their horses with the fresh ones in the farm and then continue to their way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sipahi

So, my best guess is, this Fatmir Alispahic`s ancestor was a Turkish cavalry soldier named Ali.



In contrast to Jannisaries, Timarli Sipahis were always exclusively ethnic Turks. Provinces that did not have a Turkish population, like the Arabian peninsula, did not have timarli sipahis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sipahi


You can continue to fool yourself by thinking like no Turk ever intermarried with a Bosnian or with any other Balkan people during ~500 years. It`s fine by me if it`s good for your own mental health but do not try to present this as supposedly a truth here because it`s not.

We cant know the exact degree but you guys have Turkish blood as equally or maybe even more than Turks have Balkan blood in Turkey.

[Anatolian Eagle]

I say if east sees himself as a Kizilbash, just let him be... I don't think he has a reason to lie at all, at least as far as I can see here.

[iNird]

From the fifteenth century, in countries under Turkish rule, there were Christian feudals who became Turkish sipahis. In the Bosnian sancak (an administrative unit of the Empire), there were 111 Christian timars in 1469. In 1476, in the Smederevo sancak, there were more Christian than Muslim sipahis, and there were about 3,000 in Herzegovina at the beginning of the sixteenth century. This number continued to grow, and the sipahis from these areas played prominent roles on the battlefields of Europe, Asia and Africa. When Ottoman feudalism grew stronger, most of these had to convert to Islam to preserve their timars; those who did not were edged out, and finally disappeared completely.


http://battledescription.com/turkish-sipahi/

There is no source for this on wiki:


In contrast to Jannisaries, Timarli Sipahis were always exclusively ethnic Turks. Provinces that did not have a Turkish population, like the Arabian peninsula, did not have timarli sipahis.


I'm not trying to act like an expert on this subject but I don't think the link I posted is no more or less credible than the Wiki.

Also a picture of Hedo turkoglu(which I assume means son of a Turk in Turkish)

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_magic/files/2011/09/Hedo-Turkoglu1.jpg

Edit:

Also something else I found:


In the meantime, many Christian Sipahis converted to Islam and were reassigned to other parts of the empire so as to cut their connections with their country of origin

http://books.google.com/books?id=JgfNBKHG7S8C&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=%22christian+sipahis%22&source=bl&ots=trfo9jBhS-&sig=tZEeiDD_-N9hbCilfO8CgWbzQic&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UVLsT93PIaue6wHbopW2BQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22christian%20sipahis%22&f=false

[Onur]

There is no source for this on wiki:

I'm not trying to act like an expert on this subject but I don't think the link I posted is no more or less credible than the Wiki.
The source has been given in the next sentence. It`s written in the early 15th century;


Kanunname-i Sipahi (Book of law of Sipahis), that was written in Mehmed II era, clearly states that every sipahi (kapıkulu or timarli) must be of Turkish ancestry. It is thought that this was a way to control and to separate two fundamental army divisions (jannisary and sipahi) completely from each other and alienating Turks from capital-city politics while maintaining a controlled Turkish elite of bureaucracy and nobility in Anatolia and Balkans, without the danger of creating rival Turkish dynasties to the Ottoman throne(which was a central reason of destruction for earlier Turkish states).

Also Sipahis were horse archers and it`s a traditional Turkic custom, which cannot possibly be done by the christian balkanites because it required a dedication and hard work from very early age like 4-5 years old.

I am sure some christians slipped inside Sipahis just as some Turks entered the Janissary squad but this wasn't the norm but a rare exception. Also a christian who knows horse archery warfare techniques must have had a Turkish ancestry again.


Also a picture of Hedo turkoglu(which I assume means son of a Turk in Turkish)
Hedo`s ancestors are from Sanjak, Serbia who came to Turkey about ~100 years ago. He said that their family name was Turkovic in Sandjak and they changed to Turkoglu in Turkey but ofc both have same meaning anyway.

Watch this, he can speak Bosnian despite that they are in Turkey for 100 years;
eucsy_pNP-8

It looks like their parents taught him to speak Bosnian because we don't have such complexes in Turkey similar to Gospodine`s. We are not trying to hide anything here and no one insults each other as "Serbian, Bosnian, bulgarian" here unlike you do in Balkans by calling each other as "turks" in a derogative way.

[Pecheneg]

The Turks are not a people racially homogeneous. Originally they were the original Turkic with featured mongols but then with their barbaric invasions on the European, North African and Middle-East lands, they have absorbed at least 80% of foreign blood. The Balkan Turks may be North African, South-European or Gypsy ancestry, there are various odds. Personally, based on the genetics of the Turks, I might conclude that also the Turks of Turkey are not more Turkish-Turkic original. A part of Their race(38%) come from the European part of the southern Slavs, Albanians, Romanians, Bulgarians and Greeks.


another retard.
You fucking ignorant moron have no right to talk about genetics because your knowledge is "0"! europid admixture in Turks are not came from russians or shiptards! even the Uyghurs from Chinese border have large amount of europid+middle east admixture! Also pre-Turkic anatolia was already a west asian - european mixed!
btw you can't talk about origins because you are mostly e3b carrier shiptards who adopted indo-european language!


According to 2012 study the Turkish genetic structure is unique and the ancestry of the Turks is 38% European, 35% Middle Eastern (Not Turkic-Turanid), 18% South Asian and 9% Central Asia.
central-asian-Turanid-Turkic gene??? There is no such a thing.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0
Here, central asian dna (Turkmenistan)

South Asian 9.3%
West Asian 44.9%
Siberian 8.2%
African 0.2%
Southern 17.2%
Atlantic_Baltic 13.5%
East Asian 6.9%

ok let's estimate
central asian Turkmens are;
southern + atlantic baltic = 30.5% european
west Asian = 44.9% middle eastern
siberian+east asian = 15.1% Mongoloid (Turkic-Turanid according to you)

so, even the Turkmens of central asia are only %15 central asian-Turkic-Turanid according to this bullshit!


Albanians have turks descendents? No, Turks have some albanian blood.
A BBC news article said there is an estimated 5 million Albanian descended Turks in 1999 but A Turkish newspaper said something like 1 million+ 3years ago:rolleyes:

These few million people are not Turks, but diaspora albanians of Turkey, who fled from balkans in 19th and 20th centuries!
Turks accepted these refugees and placed them to best regions of anatolia! There are 2-3 million shiptards in Turkey but it doesn't mean we have albanian blood you idiot.

[Pecheneg]

Sen hakli olabilirsin.
There are three versions of origin of Kizilbashs in Northeast Bulgaria.
1. Origin - Greater Khorasan , most possible we are Turkmen, driven away from there
2. Other Turk ethnicity which came nord way round Black Sea, such Gagauz people
3. We are Asparukh Bulgars which last long time pagan and during Otoman rule became Alevi/Kizilbash

I repeat again we are different from Alevii in Turkey visualy, culturaly , folk traditions and ctr.

Famous Kizilbash Turks from history!

Shahkulu (from southern anatolia - Antalya)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Eahkulu_Rebellion

Pir Sultan Abdal (central anatolia - Sivas)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pir_Sultan_Abdal

Jelal (central anatolia - Bozok/Yozgat)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelali_revolts

The alevi-Turks of anatolia, called "kizilbash" (Red Heads in Turkish) because they were shah-supporters! The Ottomans were sunni muslims, while Safavid dynasty were shia !

"Kizilbash" term wasn't used until 16th century Ottoman-Safevid conflict (sunni-shia war).
But it's like i'm talking to a wall here, you imposter probably don't even know the Shia-Sunni conflict in 16th century or birth of the "Kizilbash" term.

The Turkoman Oghuz tribes (aka Seljuk Turks) moved from Khorasan to anatolia in between 11th-14th centuries.
Some of those tribes were shia-alevi and during the shia-sunni war in 16th century those nomadic Turkish shia tribes of central anatolia& azerbaijan called "Kizilbash", that's all !
Infact, "Kizilbash" is not an ethnicity ,but a faith. Even today, some zaza (iranic) tribes of eastern anatolia known as kizilbash.

[iNird]

Also Sipahis were horse archers and it`s a traditional Turkic custom, which cannot possibly be done by the christian balkanites because it required a dedication and hard work from very early age like 4-5 years old.




The 14-th century Ottoman army was also characterized by a large number of Christian elite troops, again including Sipahis


Such Christian Sipahi families usually converted to Islam after the second or third generation to confirm their position within the Ottoman military structure, mergining into a new Balk military aristocracy that differed from tha seen in the Asian provinces.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WjQfo3a1eVMC&pg=PA838&lpg=PA838&dq=christian+sipahis&source=bl&ots=YsL0dZIjQw&sig=ZfBRG59MtPPHT6hNaBc4y3i_WJQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CIXsT4uOGqGd6AHpy8zpBQ&ved=0CE8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=christian%20sipahis&f=false


I am sure some christians slipped inside Sipahis just as some Turks entered the Janissary squad but this wasn't the norm but a rare exception. Also a christian who knows horse archery warfare techniques must have had a Turkish ancestry again.

From the small research I did online, it didn't seem it was that rare.

Secondly to assert that a " christian who knows horse archery warfare techniques must have had a Turkish ancestry" is absurd. I will give you a break since I know English is not your first language but it appears you are claiming that a learned trait such as horse archery warfare is related to some sort of genetical inheritance (for lack of a better word.)




Hedo`s ancestors are from Sanjak, Serbia who came to Turkey about ~100 years ago. He said that their family name was Turkovic in Sandjak and they changed to Turkoglu in Turkey but ofc both have same meaning anyway.

Watch this, he can speak Bosnian despite that they are in Turkey for 100 years;
eucsy_pNP-8

It looks like their parents taught him to speak Bosnian because we don't have such complexes in Turkey similar to Gospodine`s. We are not trying to hide anything here and no one insults each other as "Serbian, Bosnian, bulgarian" here unlike you do in Balkans by calling each other as "turks" in a derogative way.

Not sure about 100 years. Here's an interview in Serbian where he says his parents were born in Sjenica

e2HeWKPoUQI

Maybe someone that knows Serbian/Bosnian can translate your video. If he claims in the video that his surname was Turkovic, fair enough.

BTW if Hedo is a Turk than fuck me royally.

:coffee:

[Pecheneg]

I say if east sees himself as a Kizilbash, just let him be... I don't think he has a reason to lie at all, at least as far as I can see here.
ofc there is no problem. But he is trying to show "Kizilbash" as different ethnicity, it's hilarious bcause even the word "Kizilbash / Kızılbaş" is Turkish.

[Gospodine]

You can continue to fool yourself by thinking like no Turk ever intermarried with a Bosnian or with any other Balkan people during ~500 years. It`s fine by me if it`s good for your own mental health but do not try to present this as supposedly a truth here because it`s not.

We cant know the exact degree but you guys have Turkish blood as equally or maybe even more than Turks have Balkan blood in Turkey.

I'm not fooling myself, I'm simply not falling for a romanticized, mythological ethnogenesis that is conjured up by ultra-nationalists such as yourself to lay claim to foreign lands you no longer have any connection to.

You, like many Turks on this forum, see the Balkans through the prism of Neo-Ottomanism when the fact of the matter is, Balkan people (in particular South Slavs), are one of the most genetically homogenous groups in Europe with the exception of very isolated outliers such as Icelanders or Lapps.

The most famous population geneticist of all time (Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza) can testify to this:
The extreme outliers are Lapps, followed by Sardinians...

... There is then a group of five less extreme outliers, in the following order: Greeks, Yugoslavs, Basques, Icelanders, and Finns.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&pg=PA268&lpg=PA268&dq=luca+cavalli+sforza+greeks+and+yugoslavs+less+e xtreme+outliers&source=bl&ots=Hl7SWcFH89&sig=64q5n_O0isgpRa_4s3X4xG9wWsE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=05XsT5WiL4iPiAfAypHoBQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Modern genetic analysis simply disproves any notion of significant admixture from Anatolia or the Middle East into the Balkans after the Neolithic period.
Notice how I said significant? I didn't none at all, but the Balkan people that have Turkish admixture ARE IN TURKEY. They left after the First Balkan War and prior to it when nationalist movements popped up everywhere.

Not that you should need to consult genetic evidence for that one anyway; just buy yourself a pair of glasses.

I like how you disregarded everything I mentioned about established naming conventions as well.
Thanks for conceding defeat.


Hedo`s ancestors are from Sanjak, Serbia who came to Turkey about ~100 years ago. He said that their family name was Turkovic in Sandjak and they changed to Turkoglu in Turkey but ofc both have same meaning anyway.

Don't be a friggin' liar man.

His parents came to Turkey in 1979 when he was born. They're from Sjenica, Serbia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2HeWKPoUQI

The a good portion of the Turkish National Basketball Team is Balkan in origin anyway, since most of them are well above average height in Turkey, but would fit right into the Dinaric region of the former Yugoslavia, home to the tallest people in Europe.

[Pecheneg]

@Gospodine
I know guys like you, your profile says you are an anti-nationalist but infact, you are extremely racist and much more nationalist than every Turk in this forum.

+500 years of Turkish presence in balkans caused some demographic changes as well as genetic changes. You can deny it forever, but it doesn't matter.
Ottomans brought many nomadic/semi-nomadic Turkish tribes to balkans from the heart of anatolia and all of them documented in Ottoman archives, those newcomers mixed with locals and their appearance changed due to the mixing with locals for centuries.

[Onur]

Balkan people (in particular South Slavs), are one of the most genetically homogenous groups in Europe with the exception of very isolated outliers such as Icelanders or Lapps.
There was no need to read rest of your post after this sentence. Have fun with the little world you created yourself in your mind.

[Illirico]

another retard.
You fucking ignorant moron have no right to talk about genetics because your knowledge is "0"! europid admixture in Turks are not came from russians or shiptards! even the Uyghurs from Chinese border have large amount of europid+middle east admixture! Also pre-Turkic anatolia was already a west asian - european mixed!
btw you can't talk about origins because you are mostly e3b carrier shiptards who adopted indo-european language!


central-asian-Turanid-Turkic gene??? There is no such a thing.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0
Here, central asian dna (Turkmenistan)

South Asian 9.3%
West Asian 44.9%
Siberian 8.2%
African 0.2%
Southern 17.2%
Atlantic_Baltic 13.5%
East Asian 6.9%

ok let's estimate
central asian Turkmens are;
southern + atlantic baltic = 30.5% european
west Asian = 44.9% middle eastern
siberian+east asian = 15.1% Mongoloid (Turkic-Turanid according to you)

so, even the Turkmens of central asia are only %15 central asian-Turkic-Turanid according to this bullshit!


These few million people are not Turks, but diaspora albanians of Turkey, who fled from balkans in 19th and 20th centuries!
Turks accepted these refugees and placed them to best regions of anatolia! There are 2-3 million shiptards in Turkey but it doesn't mean we have albanian blood you idiot.


During the Barbarian Invasion of South-Europe, Mongols Turks had a habit of stealing the beautiful women and their child in the South-Europe and bring them into their wild country and then rape them and train the childs. And so you did well in North Africa and the rest of the Middle East. And the result of your modern nation is visible, you are a people of mixed race, mestizo-hybrid. Your turanide myth is false. The Turkey of Turks Mongols no longer exists.;)

[Optimus]

There seems to be ~17-18% Balkan Y-DNA among modern Turks while 0% Turkish Y-DNA among Balkan nations.I don't think there was a systematic rape of womens,it was a multinational Muslim Empire with a ruling Turkic elite.Balkanites that were either loyal or converted to Islam seems to have been rewarded lands and many priviliges in the Empire.

[Pecheneg]

During the Barbarian Invasion of South-Europe, Mongols Turks had a habit of stealing the beautiful women and their child in the South-Europe and bring them into their wild country and then rape them and train the childs. And so you did well in North Africa and the rest of the Middle East. And the result of your modern nation is visible, you are a people of mixed race, mestizo-hybrid. Your turanide myth is false. The Turkey of Turks Mongols no longer exists.;)
and result of the Turkish invasion is visible in your brain.
There is no need to debate with such an idiot like you.
It seems +500 years Turkish rule caused heavy anal pains.
Turkish Oghuz tribes settled in anatolia and parts of balkans you loser, Turks in north africa were rulers&warriors.
almost 50% of your people are e3b y-chromosome carriers and you are still talking about mixing.



There seems to be ~17-18% Balkan Y-DNA among modern Turks while 0% Turkish Y-DNA among Balkan nations.I don't think there was a systematic rape of womens,it was a multinational Muslim Empire with a Turkic elite.Balkanites that were either loyal or converted to Islam seems to have been rewarded lands and many priviliges in the Empire.

what is balkan y-dna?
This so-called y-choromosome was already exist in pre-Turkic anatolia and probably leftover from neolithic you idiot.
Just like the west asian admixture among balkan people, also leftover from neolithic!

if you are talking about r1a or r1b, all of them are already exist in central asian Turks, such as Kyrgyz (~50% R1a), Turkmens (most common haplogroup R1b).

[Gospodine]

What's funny to me is that the Turks love to focus on how much Turkish influence is present in the Balkans and yet you never, ever hear about how much Balkan influence is present in Turkey, despite the fact some 10 to 15 million Turks have Balkan ancestry.

We never hear about any of these Turks. Most of them don't even know they have any Balkan roots because their ethnic identity was erased when they migrated to Turkey, their names were forcibly changed to Turkish ones, they were not able to educate their children in their native language nor have newspapers, radio stations or TV programs that broadcast in their language either.

Turkey actually has a law against "Insulting Turkishness". That speaks volumes about how strongly nationalist sentiment is entrenched in their culture.

[Optimus]

what is balkan y-dna?
This so-called y-choromosome was already exist in pre-Turkic anatolia and probably leftover from neolithic you idiot.
Just like the west asian admixture among balkan people, also leftover from neolithic!

First learn to debate in a civil manner.In every single post of yours you are using ad hominems.I bet you do that since you are very safe in internet.:)

I doubt EV13 was present in Anatolia which is estimated to be 11-13% since the pattern seems to be Western Balkans(Herzegovina)>Eastern Balkans also I2 and I1 something like 4-5%.You get the point now!?

[Pecheneg]

What's funny to me is that the Turks love to focus on how much Turkish influence is present in the Balkans and yet you never, ever hear about how much Balkan influence is present in Turkey, despite the fact some 10 to 15 million Turks have Balkan ancestry.

We never hear about any of these Turks. Most of them don't even know they have any Balkan roots because their ethnic identity was erased when they migrated to Turkey, their names were forcibly changed to Turkish ones, they were not able to educate their children in their native language nor have newspapers, radio stations or TV programs that broadcast in their language either.

Turkey actually has a law against "Insulting Turkishness". That speaks volumes about how strongly nationalist sentiment is entrenched in their culture.

sounds like very ...very armenian.

[Pecheneg]

First learn to debate in a civil manner.In every single post of yours you are using ad hominems.I bet you do that since you are very safe in internet.:)
actually, you are the safe one in internet.

[Optimus]

actually, you are the safe one in internet.

Yeah sure.:rolleyes: I am not the one acting like a keyboard warrior,it is you who is acting like tought guy.But i bet you are like a sheep IRL.

[Sturmgewehr]

sounds like very ...very armenian.

Actually it doesn't.

My grandfather has 2 uncles in Turkey, they went there during the early 30s, no one has ever heard of them since then, and that is only from my father's side, there have been many people who migrated from the Balkans to Turkey.

[Pecheneg]

Yeah sure.:rolleyes: I am not the one acting like a keyboard warrior,it is you who is acting like tought guy.But i bet you are like a sheep IRL.
you are the one acting like keyboard fighter, the first thing you did was creating "armenian genocide" thread. Otherwise i wouldn't give a single fuck to you.

[Sturmgewehr]

@Gospodine

+500 years of Turkish presence in balkans caused some demographic changes as well as genetic changes. You can deny it forever, but it doesn't matter.


Yeah OK, except that there is no evidence for ANY SIGNIFICANT genetic influx in the Balkans from Anatolia since the Neolithic Times.

[Optimus]

you are the one acting like keyboard fighter, the first thing you did was creating "armenian genocide" thread. Otherwise i don't give a single fuck to you.

Creating that thread doesn't mean acting like "keyboard fighter" lol.You have a very warped logic,but it is typical for your kind.To put it simple you cannot receive criticism.Typical narcissoid mindset.

And actually your behaviour deserves the title "keyboard fighter" not me because i didn't use ad-hominems or insults like you do in every single thread.

[Pecheneg]

Actually it doesn't.

My grandfather has 2 uncles in Turkey, they went there during the early 30s, no one has ever heard of them since then, and that is only from my father's side, there have been many people who migrated from the Balkans to Turkey.

1.question
Why they migrated to Turkey instead of their balkan brother countries?

2.question
Everything was ok, when Turks accept these hundreds of thousands of refugees and placed them to best regions of anatolia. now, what's the problem?

[Sturmgewehr]

1.question
Why they migrated to Turkey instead of their balkan brother countries?

I don't think there was any Particular reason for that since members of my blood line also migrated to Argentina and North America as well, in search for Jobs, I guess they thought of Turkey as a stable country, at least more stable than the rest around here so they went there.


2.question
Everything was ok, when Turks accept these hundreds of thousands of refugees and placed them to best regions of anatolia. now, what's the problem?

Yeah they made my Grandfather's uncles Sultans lol

They were probably cleaning toilets or shit like that, I am sure they weren't placed in Palaces or other ilks of edifices.

[Onur]

My grandfather has 2 uncles in Turkey, they went there during the early 30s, no one has ever heard of them since then, and that is only from my father's side, there have been many people who migrated from the Balkans to Turkey.
And what you mean by saying this?

I hope you don't have some weird story like supposedly big bad Turks caged your Albanian relatives and brainwashed them by using Chinese water blob to the head torture tactics?

[Sturmgewehr]

And what you mean by saying this?

I hope you don't have some weird story like supposedly big bad Turks caged your Albanian relatives and brainwashed them by using Chinese water blob to the head torture tactics?

I was trying to say that Gospodine had a point when saying that you always talk about the Ottoman impact in the Balkans and always omit the Balkan Impact on Turks, the rest is ad Hominen and Straw man Argument.

[Gospodine]

sounds like very ...very armenian.

Of course man. Everyone who disagrees with the Turks is an Armenian asshole.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I was trying to say that Gospodine had a point when saying that you always talk about the Ottoman impact in the Balkans and always omit the Balkan Impact on Turks, the rest is ad Hominen and Straw man Argument.

Balkan impact on Turkey is near to nil since all Balkans in Turkey are Turkicized nowadays except for recent immigrants.

[Hurrem sultana]

Ignore him,do not feed the troll :D

[Onur]

always omit the Balkan Impact on Turks, the rest is ad Hominen and Straw man Argument.
Can you please show me an example of Turkish member here denying the Balkan immigrants issue?

But i know your problem with our stance. You wanna hear us shouting like "All anatolians are Greeks and armenians, Balkan immigrants are Albos, bulgarians". We will never say such a thing because it`s not true.

So, i am afraid, regardless of how many times we speak about the Balkan immigrants, you still continue to claim that "you dismiss balkan immigrants of Turkey" because we wont give you the answer you wanna hear from us.

[Sturmgewehr]

Balkan impact on Turkey is near to nil since all Balkans in Turkey are Turkicized nowadays except for recent immigrants.

LOL, that shows that there is Balkan impact, that is Genetic Impact regardless if they are assimilated or not, plus The Byzantine Empire which was consumed by the Ottomans, Symbols such the Crescent moon and star were a Balkan thing, the Byzantinian Empire on the Anatolian part had a big Balkan population, all this population was consumed by the Seljuk Turks and so did their traditions.

[Sturmgewehr]

Can you please show me an example of Turkish member here denying the Balkan immigrants issue?

I was talking about the Balkan Impact on Turks, immigration is just one of them.


But i know your problem with our stance. You wanna hear us shouting like "All anatolians are Greeks and armenians, Balkan immigrants are Albos, bulgarians".

LOL, actually no, I think u r reflecting ur fears.


We will never say such a thing because it`s not true.

No one ever used the term ALL ANATOLIANS, ;), at least not ME.


So, i am afraid, regardless of how many times we speak about the Balkan immigrants, you still continue to claim that "you dismiss balkan immigrants of Turkey" because we wont give you the answer you wanna hear from us.


We don't need any answer to whatever u r talking about here.

What does the Central Asian Genetic Impact amongst Anatolians tell us?? Mind u elaborate on it a bit?

[Onur]

Symbols such the Crescent moon and star were a Balkan thing, the Byzantinian Empire on the Anatolian part had a big Balkan population, all this population was consumed by the Seljuk Turks and so did their traditions.
I keep reading interesting stuff from the forum today.

First Gospodine said that Balkanites are the most homogenous people on earth along with Lapps.

And now, Sturmgewehr claims that Turks adopted Crescent+star from Balkanites.

I wonder what will be the 3rd claim...

[Linet]

The toponymy in Balkans, the names of the towns, territories also supports this because there are a lot of town, village names related with yoruk turkmen groups. Actually there was many more in macedonia but Greece changed most of them after 1930s.

oh no Greek had even talked here but my baby's mind is to us :eyes...
Baby :love0031:...
Baby helloooooooo :wave:...Greeks were here 5000 years before you to think to immigrate to the area...we didnt expect you to come and give names to the cities we built....sorry....so we named them ourselves. But anyway, its not like you have big imagination, you just took our names and just change it abit like... Instanbul (i stin boli = to Polis (Greeks never say the whole name. we just call it Polis)), Ismir (i smirni), Isparta (i sparti)...etc... so no big deal :wink:


This is hypocrisy, most people in here considered pontian greeks as "pure hellenes", while they are culturally, genetically, physically different (simply hellenicized caucaso-black sea people).
Hundreds of thousands of anatolian Turks placed in balkans by Ottomans (very well documented in ottoman archival datas).
ofc they mixed with local balkanites a lot, it doesn't make them assimilated balkanites.

Oh my second love :eyes.... Pech darling, Greeks didnt even reply in this thread.....why again you talk about us? Truth hurts :puppy_dp:? Anyway to what you say i ll reply with what a great mind i know said....


Seeing them as 100% Turkified balkanites is typical loser syptom.
Simply, people don't want to believe that they conquered and ruled by Turks for centuries.

Well said, so darling, dont do the same to the Greeks of Pontus...sorry, they are Greeks, speak Greek, dance Greek....you know...the dances you love to copy and claim as yours :thumb001:


actually, you are the safe one in internet.

:D

Pech and Onur...come on....since you want to talk about the pontic Greeks, why dont you reply to me at the thread there :lightbul:? I wait like kid that knows is Chrismass :candy2 but nobody gives him present :pout:...come on, give me my present :santa2...reply to me...:eyes

[Hurrem sultana]

Crescent moon and star were a Balkan thing

It is a sign found in many parts of world

[Onur]

It is a sign found in many parts of world
Maybe but it`s the sign we use as our national symbol since 6th century AD, Gokturk empire. Thats a long before the Ottoman empire came to Balkans.

Don't be fooled by it`s treatment as a sign of islam today. It`s because islam has been represented under our banner since crusaders and christians saw that banner from Seljuks in Anatolia and middle-east.

[Linet]

Onuuuuuur...reply to me to teh thread about the Pontic Greeks....:eyes
....i am waiting...happily.... :D

[Sturmgewehr]

First Gospodine said that Balkanites are the most homogenous people on earth along with Lapps.

And I never supported Gospodine on that claim, only on the one I have already been elaborating and Population purity was not that one :)


And now, Sturmgewehr claims that Turks adopted Crescent+Moon from Balkanites.

STRAW MAN ARGUMENT.

I didn't say that.

I said it was a Byzantine Symbol and Byzantine Empire was mostly Dominated by Balkan people, it is also not weird that Greek was the official language, let's not forget that the Crescent moon and star symbol has been found amongst Roman and Byzantine Coins.


http://i50.tinypic.com/xaqfsj.jpg


Byzantine Coins
http://tjbuggey.ancients.info/images/hadstar.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ofsKG4Jlu5I/R7rc_Tk1k1I/AAAAAAAAAVg/bcPO70TAsuY/s1600-h/Moushmov_3233.jpg

SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS 193AD Nicopolis ad Istrum Genuine Ancient Roman Coin MOON STAR

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDg2WDUxMA==/$(KGrHqF,!hEE5o7Hq2IrBOmgBUIMqw~~60_35.JPG


CARACALLA Pautalia in Thrace 198AD Ancient Authentic Roman Coin STAR MOON RARE

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/CARACALLA-Pautalia-Thrace-198AD-Ancient-Authentic-Roman-Coin-STAR-MOON-RARE-/00/s/NTc2WDU3Nw==/$(KGrHqJ,!oEE63WY9D-sBO2p3vttMQ~~60_3.JPG

Tombstone of the roman soldier Marius son of Ructinus, from the Cohors I Montanorum at Magdalensberg in Carinthia, Austria, who died in his 25th year of service. The unit was stationed there in the 1st century AD. See also the two edelweiss blossoms (Leontopodium alpinum) at the top.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/CohMont1.jpg

[Onur]

I said it was a Byzantine Symbol and Byzantine Empire was mostly Dominated by Balkan people, it is also not weird that Greek was the official language, let's not forget that the Crescent moon and star symbol has been found amongst Roman and Byzantine Coins.
These coins and symbols you posted here are from 1-2nd century AD. So it`s a pagan Roman empire era before the division of east and west. Also medieval Greek was just one of the local tongues `till 7th century. Only after 7th century, Greek became official language.

Whatever the case, Turks in the Eurasia couldn't have possibly adopt crescent+star from Romans. Also Romans didn't use this as their coat of arms but Turks did since 6th century.

[Linet]

These coins and symbols you posted here are from 1-2nd century AD. So it`s a pagan Roman empire era before the division of east and west. Also medieval Greek was just one of the local tongues `till 7th century. Only after 7th century, Greek became official language.

Whatever the case, Turks in the Eurasia couldn't have possibly adopt crescent+star from Romans. Also Romans didn't use this as their coat of arms but Turks did since 6th century.

Read some history my love :eyes....
Greek became the official language the 5th century AC....of course unofficially, it was the actual spoken language long ago :wink....

[Sturmgewehr]

These coins and symbols you posted here are from 1-2nd century AD. So it`s a pagan Roman empire era before the division of east and west.

Which shows that the Crescent moon and star was not foreign to the Balkans or Byzantine Empire whichever term u prefer, Actually if u looked closer those Coins are found in Thrace and parts where the Byzantine Empire used to stretch.

Those symbols were in Use during Roman and Byzantine empire regardless if the empire was later divided or not, the division argument doesn't make much sense in the first place because it seems like u r trying to imply that the Byzantinians got the Moon and Star from somewhere else, the division only shows that the Byzantine Empire only used those symbols after the division so that argument doesn't hold any water.

u also missed this:

http://i50.tinypic.com/xaqfsj.jpg


Also medieval Greek was just one of the local tongues `till 7th century. Only after 7th century, Greek became official language.

Well before that Latin was Official, also, Greek becoming the official language after 7th Century doesn't confute my argument because Seljuks came 400 - 500 after the Greek was made an Official language in Byzantine Empire.


Whatever the case, Turks in the Eurasia couldn't have possibly adopt crescent+star from Romans.

I didn't say that, I think that symbol, just like Bosnian said, was a pretty common symbol among many tribes, the weird thing about it though is that Even though GokTurks used the Crescent M&S the Seljuks were never shown to have used that Symbol and most probably adopted it from the Byzantine Empire.


Also Romans didn't use this as their coat of arms but Turks did since 6th century.

Byzantines used it a lot, why does something have to be used as Coat of Arms???? I don't get this argument, English people never used Stars as their coat of Arms or whatever but Americans have 50 Stars on their flag.

[StonyArabia]

The Cresent and Moon was the symbol of the Arabian Goddesses Manat and Laat the daughters of the supreme and mother Goddess who created her husband from her thighs Al-Uza. It has nothing to do with Turks or Balkanites.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Our culture is based on nature worshipping
All of our mythology, is found on concepts taken from nature ,
Both sky and earth was sacred . Our Deities were nature forces including animals ,trees ,celestial objects...even our fighting strategies were imitating wolves..

Tengri means both God and Sky ,
Tengiz -Deniz -Sea (it's also Chinggis in Mongolian)

24 of Oguz tribes taken their names from Oguz khan's sons
Sun khan,Moon khan,Sky Khan,Star Khan ,Mountain khan ,Sea Khan,

Legend

According to legend, Oghuz was born in Central Asia as the son of Qara Khan, leader of the Turks. He starts talking as soon as he was born. He stops drinking his mother's milk after the first time and asks for kımız (an alcoholic beverage made with horse milk) and meat. After that, he grows up supernaturally fast and only in forty days he becomes a young adult. At the time of his birth, the lands of the Turks were preyed upon by a dragon named Kıyant. Oghuz arms himself and goes to kill the dragon. He sets a trap for the dragon by hanging a freshly killed deer to a tree, then kills the great dragon with his bronze lance and cuts off his head with his steel sword.

After Oghuz kills the dragon Kıyant, he becomes a national hero. He forms a special warrior band from the forty sons of forty Turk beys (clan chiefs)thus gathering the clans together. But his Chinese stepmother and half-brother, who is the heir to the throne, become intimitated by his power and convince Qara Khan that Oghuz was planning to dethrone him. Qara Khan decides to assassinate Oghuz at a hunting party. Oghuz learns about this plan and instead, kills his father to become the Khan. His stepmother and half brother flee to China.

After Oghuz becomes the khan, he goes to steppes by himself to praise and pray to Tengri (Sky-God). While praying he sees a circle of light coming from the sky, there was a supernaturally beautiful girl in the light. Oghuz falls in love with the girl and marries her. He has three sons which he names Gün (Sun), Ay (Moon) and Yıldız (Star). Later, Oghuz goes hunting and sees another supernaturally beautiful girl inside a tree. He marries her and has three sons which he names Gök (Sky), Dağ (Mountain) and Deniz (Sea).

After his sons are born, Oghuz Khan gives a great toy (feast) and invites all of his beys (lords). At the feast, he gives this order to his lords:

"I am became your Khan;

Let's all take swords and shields;

Kut (divine power) will be our sign;

Grey wolf will be our uran (warcry);

Our iron lances will be a forest;

Khulan will walk on the hunting ground;

More seas and more rivers;

Sun is our flag and sky is our tent."

Then, he sends letters to the Kings of the Four Directions, saying: "I am the Khan of the Turks. And I will be Khan of the Four Corners of the Earth. I want your obedience."

Altun Khan (Golden Khan), on the right corner of earth, submits his obedience but Urum (Roman), Khan of the left corner, does not. Oghuz declares war on Urum Khan and marches his army to the west. One night, a large male wolf with grey fur(which is an avatar of Tengri) comes to his tent in an aura of light. He says, "Oghuz, you want to march against Urum, I want to march before your army." So, the grey sky-wolf marches before the Turkish army and guides them. The two armies fought near the river İtil (Volga). Oghuz Khan wins the war. Then, Oghuz and his six sons carry out campaigns in Turkistan, India, Iran, Egypt, Syria, with the grey wolf as their guide. He becomes the Khan of the Four Corners of the Earth.

In his old age, Oghuz sees a dream. He calls his six sons and sends them to the east and the west. His elder sons find a golden bow in the east. His younger sons find three silver arrows in the west. Oghuz Khan breaks the golden bow in to three pieces and gives each to his three older sons Gün, Ay and Yıldız. He says: "My older sons, take this bow and shoot your arrows to the sky like this bow." He gives three silver arrows to his three younger sons Gök, Dağ and Deniz and says: "My younger sons, take these silver arrows. A bow shoots arrows and you are to be like the arrow." Then, he passes his lands onto his sons, Bozoks (Gray Arrows - elder sons) and Üçoks (Three Arrows - younger sons) at a final banquet. (Abū’l-Ghāzī identifies the lineage symbols, tamga seals and ongon spirit guiding birds, as well as specifying the political hierarchy and seating order at banquets for these sons and their 24 sons) Then he says:

"My sons, I walked a lot;

I saw many battles;

I threw so many arrows and lances;

I rode many horses;

I made my enemies cry;

I made my friends smile;

I paid my debt to Tengri;

Now I am giving my land to you."

[Linet]

Where is the moon and the star in that? :eyes

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Where is the moon and the star in that? :eyes

On the sky dear on the sky -Tengri..is our God
sun moon star..

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5634/imageaxdq.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/imageaxdq.gif/)
Uygur Flag named <3 GÖKBAYRAK <3 -skyflag

Mongols have crescent moon and sun..they had star too but removed it later

[Linet]

On the sky dear on the sky -Tengri..is our God

The symbol i mean...:valknut
...All nations and tribes had a sky God etc....:oldman:

[Anatolian Eagle]

The Cresent and Moon was the symbol of the Arabian Goddesses Manat and Laat the daughters of the supreme and mother Goddess who created her husband from her thighs Al-Uza. It has nothing to do with Turks or Balkanites.

It has nothing to do with Turks? The symbol is Turkic for God's sake, here's a Göktürk coin:
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/9265/233zz.gif

You can clearly see the crescent and star and I doubt Göktürks borrowed it from Arabs. There's nothing Arabic or Islamic about it, most of Muslim nations adopted the symbol from influence of either Mamluks or Ottomans...

[Onur]

It has nothing to do with Turks? The symbol is Turkic for God's sake, here's a Göktürk coin:
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/9265/233zz.gif

You can clearly see the crescent and star and I doubt Göktürks borrowed it from Arabs. There's nothing Arabic or Islamic about it, most of Muslim nations adopted the symbol from influence of either Mamluks or Ottomans...
You can see some pages of a catalog of Gokturk empire coins from 6-7th century here;
http://hartekin.name.tr/photo/11


This is a French miniature illustration drawn for the battle between Mongol army and Mamluk Turkic forces during the crusades of 13th century;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/BattleOfHoms1299.JPG

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Plus old Turkic Empire flags and modern Turkic state flags -most of them have moon ,star or sun on them..i cant send pictures now because my connection really sucks today :(

[Onur]

And read my message here about the interesting coincidence of medieval Hungarian Szekely flag, a group of people believed to be descendants of medieval Avars;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=965268&postcount=56



http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2139/rgiszkely.jpg

[Pecheneg]

Symbols such the Crescent moon and star were a Balkan thing


Gök-Türk Coins
http://i50.tinypic.com/2rzv02e.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/2wmh107.gif


Uyghur flag
http://i46.tinypic.com/xkww7c.gif


Khorasan Turkmen flag
http://i47.tinypic.com/zn09e1.jpg


Polish Tatar flag
http://i49.tinypic.com/j90jg5.gif


Iraqi Turkmen flag
http://i48.tinypic.com/ajm8tj.jpg


Qashqai flag
http://i45.tinypic.com/34s1p5h.jpg


Azerbaijan Flag
http://i48.tinypic.com/epfx2g.png


Khalaj flag
http://i50.tinypic.com/k9u03.jpg


Turkmenistan flag
http://i46.tinypic.com/jgp6au.png


Uzbekistan flag
http://i45.tinypic.com/1676pty.gif


Hungarian - Szekler flag
http://i50.tinypic.com/315bxp0.jpg


Turkish flag
http://i45.tinypic.com/106btpy.png


Karakalpak flag
http://i49.tinypic.com/15xv1wk.jpg


Tatar
http://i49.tinypic.com/9a8xad.png



It seems whole Turkic world from Chinese Great wall to Adriatic sea adopted this "balkan" symbol.
btw origin of "balkan" word.

The term "Balkan" itself comes from Turkish "Balkan", meaning "chain of wooded mountains".

[StonyArabia]

It has nothing to do with Turks? The symbol is Turkic for God's sake, here's a Göktürk coin:
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/9265/233zz.gif

You can clearly see the crescent and star and I doubt Göktürks borrowed it from Arabs. There's nothing Arabic or Islamic about it, most of Muslim nations adopted the symbol from influence of either Mamluks or Ottomans...

I was not saying it was adopted by the Arabs, rather it was used universally by some cultures. In Arabia it was symbol of the Goddess lanat and Manat daughters of the Supreme Arabian Goddess Al-Uzza who in fact created her husband from her theighs, from that union the Cresent and star arose, it was her symbol. Ancient Midianite Arabians often worshipped the Goddess Al-Uzza who had the symbol engraved in her forhead. Some Arabian tribes used that symbol long before any Turk or Turkish influence as their banner.

[Pecheneg]

more...





Bukhara - Uzbek flag during the Soviet era
http://i49.tinypic.com/2mqw7pj.png



First East Turkistan republic flag
http://i46.tinypic.com/2yjy4j9.png



Uzbek Khanate of Kiva (1511 - 1920)
http://i47.tinypic.com/nh021g.png



Uzbek Khorezm flag 1920-1925
http://i50.tinypic.com/m9om7p.png

[Pecheneg]

Yeah they made my Grandfather's uncles Sultans lol

They were probably cleaning toilets or shit like that, I am sure they weren't placed in Palaces or other ilks of edifices.

My maternal side, Crimean Tatars mostly placed in central anatolian plateau, while hundreds of thousands of albanian refugees placed in aegean coast and marmara.
They were not toilet cleaners or something, don't play the opressed,
Be grateful instead!
if your uncle want to return his great home albania, he can do it.
This applies to all the Albanian diaspora in Turkey, if we are so evil and trying to assimilate them, they can return their homes.

[Onur]

My maternal side, Crimean Tatars mostly placed in central anatolian plateau, while hundreds of thousands of albanian refugees placed in aegean coast and marmara.

They were not toilet cleaners or something, don't play the opressed,
Be grateful instead!
The Albanians in Turkey came from Macedonia and Kosova. Also Turkey didn't invite any of them but accepted them because they had nowhere to go. They had two option; Either undemocratic, paranoid state of Enver Hodja or the democratic Turkey and they decided slip among Turks and hoping to migrate to Turkey unnoticed.

Both Turks and Albanians were getting oppressed during WW-2 and Yugoslavia era and they were under constant pressure to leave their homes. Turkey became a shelter for them and these Albanians here comes up and criticize Turks for accepting them. Maybe we should had to leave them with their misery in Yugoslavia days or let them die because of WW-2.


Peçenek told you already and i am also a preservationist. So i prefer to see all Albanians out from Turkey. So if you want them back, start an initiative to get Albanians back from Turkey. I would be grateful to you all. Albania for Albanians and Turkey for the Turks. So get your Albanians back but also be grateful to us because we took care of them, provided them safe homes and jobs during hard times.

[dralos]

The Albanians in Turkey came from Macedonia and Kosova. Also Turkey didn't invite any of them but accepted them because they had nowhere to go. They had two option; Either undemocratic, paranoid state of Enver Hodja or the democratic Turkey and they decided slip among Turks and hoping to migrate to Turkey unnoticed.

Both Turks and Albanians were getting oppressed during WW-2 and Yugoslavia era and they were under constant pressure to leave their homes. Turkey became a shelter for them and these Albanians here comes up and criticize Turks for accepting them. Maybe we should had to leave them with their misery in Yugoslavia days or let them die because of WW-2.


Peçenek told you already and i am also a preservationist. So i prefer to see all Albanians out from Turkey. So if you want them back, start an initiative to get Albanians back from Turkey. I would be grateful to you all.
turkey wanted those albanians,thats why they signed a treat with yugoslavia

[Onur]

turkey wanted those albanians,thats why they signed a treat with yugoslavia
Tito forced us to sign a treaty to accept these people. They sentenced around 20 Turks of Macedonia to death, hanged them and imprisoned 100+ Turks. Then they forced Turks to go out from Macedonia.

Albanians were just being sneaky bastards to blend among Turks because of their distant Turkish relatives. They did this to get away from communist Yugoslavia. About 150.000 people came to Turkey from Macedonia, Kosova but Albanians was no more than 10% among them. 90% was Turks. Tito`s initiative was specifically against Turks. He was accusing them for being NATO spy.

When you look at the census figures of Macedonia from 1950s to 1990s, you can clearly see that Turkish people has been deported to Turkey by Tito and their place immediately replaced by more Albanians. I remember that there was about 250.000 Turks in Macedonia in 1950s and Albanian population was about half of the Turks and during Tito regime, Turkish people dropped below 100.000 and Albanians quadrupled.

This is the official census figures from Macedonia. Tito expelled them out after 1950 and you can clearly see the effect of it among Turkish population while Albanian population continued to rise up;
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1523/clipboard22.jpg

[dralos]

Tito forced us to sign a treaty to accept these people. They sentenced around 20 Turks of Macedonia to death, hanged them and imprisoned 100+ Turks. Then they forced Turks to go out from Macedonia.

Albanians were just being sneaky bastards to blend among Turks because of their distant Turkish relatives. They did this to get away from communist Yugoslavia. About 150.000 people came to Turkey from Macedonia, Kosova but Albanians was no more than 10% among them. 90% was Turks. Tito`s initiative was specifically against Turks. He was accusing them for being NATO spy.

When you look at the census figures of Macedonia from 1950s to 1990s, you can clearly see that Turkish people has been deported to Turkey by Tito and their place immediately replaced by more Albanians. I remember that there was about 250.000 Turks in Macedonia in 1950s and Albanian population was about half of the Turks and during Tito regime, Turkish people dropped below 100.000 and Albanians quadrupled.

This is the official census figures from Macedonia. Tito expelled them out after 1950 and you can clearly see the effect of it among Turkish population while Albanian population continued to rise up;
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1523/clipboard22.jpg
LOL most expelled were albanians,turks werent that much to begin with,and turks didnt posses any threat while albanians did,bcs we were very numerous and thats why we were deported to turkey and nobody forced turkey to accept the albanians but turkey want it bcs they saw them as turks while they werent turks atall

[iNird]

Tito forced us to sign a treaty to accept these people. They sentenced around 20 Turks of Macedonia to death, hanged them and imprisoned 100+ Turks. Then they forced Turks to go out from Macedonia.

Albanians were just being sneaky bastards to blend among Turks because of their distant Turkish relatives. They did this to get away from communist Yugoslavia. About 150.000 people came to Turkey from Macedonia, Kosova but Albanians was no more than 10% among them. 90% was Turks. Tito`s initiative was specifically against Turks. He was accusing them for being NATO spy.

When you look at the census figures of Macedonia from 1950s to 1990s, you can clearly see that Turkish people has been deported to Turkey by Tito and their place immediately replaced by more Albanians. I remember that there was about 250.000 Turks in Macedonia in 1950s and Albanian population was about half of the Turks and during Tito regime, Turkish people dropped below 100.000 and Albanians quadrupled.

This is the official census figures from Macedonia. Tito expelled them out after 1950 and you can clearly see the effect of it among Turkish population while Albanian population continued to rise up;
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1523/clipboard22.jpg

Not this shit again. How many times do I have to disprove you with this topic? Why do you never always look at the census from 1948? Yes you are right that many Albanians declared themselves as Turks to leave for Turkey.

In 1948, there were 197,603 registered Albanians (17.1%) and 95,940 registered Turks (8.3%).

In 1953, there were 162,524 registered Albanians (12.4%) and 203,928 registered Turks. (15.6%).

Why do you think the Albanian figure decreased by thirty-some thousand and the Turkish one nearly doubled in the span of 5 years? Mainly because Albanains and to lesser extent Gypsies and Macedonian Muslims declared themselves Turkish to take advantage of the program set to allow to emigrate to Turkey. These people were promised land mainly in Anatolia in unpopulated lands and had to be "turkish" to emigrate. Once this agreement was over, there was no incentive to declare as "turkish" hence the Turkish figure declined over time.


This policy encouraging what can only be described as "cleansing" was continued under communist Yugoslavia in the 1950's and 1960's through handshake deals with Turkey whereby anwhere between 80,000 and 150,000 'Turks" left Yugloslavia via Macedonia and Bulgaria for Turkey. Many were not in fact Turks at all nor did they speak Turkish, but were Albanians or Macedonian Muslims who took advantage of the offer to escape further persecution in Yugoslavia.

http://books.google.com/books?id=YVPshBLnW_cC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=there+are+80,000+to+150,000+albanians+turkey&source=bl&ots=EcDfAwhX_a&sig=ek_wkVRsxPvmcKg6qI732la5tEc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P5_tT4WrIK_K0AGIxdj1DQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=there%20are%2080%2C000%20to%20150%2C000%20albani ans%20turkey&f=false

There's also a research paper I was reading that emphasized the same thing. I can't find it but will post it when I can.

[iNird]

The Albanians in Turkey came from Macedonia and Kosova. Also Turkey didn't invite any of them but accepted them because they had nowhere to go. They had two option; Either undemocratic, paranoid state of Enver Hodja or the democratic Turkey and they decided slip among Turks and hoping to migrate to Turkey unnoticed.

Both Turks and Albanians were getting oppressed during WW-2 and Yugoslavia era and they were under constant pressure to leave their homes. Turkey became a shelter for them and these Albanians here comes up and criticize Turks for accepting them. Maybe we should had to leave them with their misery in Yugoslavia days or let them die because of WW-2.


Peçenek told you already and i am also a preservationist. So i prefer to see all Albanians out from Turkey. So if you want them back, start an initiative to get Albanians back from Turkey. I would be grateful to you all. Albania for Albanians and Turkey for the Turks. So get your Albanians back but also be grateful to us because we took care of them, provided them safe homes and jobs during hard times.

The purpose of the emigration in the 50's was to settle people on unpopulated lands. Turkey in the 1950's had a population of around 20 something million. It's not as if Turkey just generously accepted them, there was benefits for the state.

Also many of these Albanians have completely integrated into Turkish society. And even for those that want to go back to say FYROM for example, have many issues. Not from the Turkish authorities but mainly from the FYROMian ones. Many of these people have no records when they left since they were destroyed and have been told it would be difficult to get citizenship in FYROM. But that's for another topic.....

[Onur]

Not this shit again. How many times do I have to disprove you with this topic? Why do you never always look at the census from 1948? Yes you are right that many Albanians declared themselves as Turks to leave for Turkey.

In 1948, there were 197,603 registered Albanians (17.1%) and 95,940 registered Turks (8.3%).

In 1953, there were 162,524 registered Albanians (12.4%) and 203,928 registered Turks. (15.6%).

Why do you think the Albanian figure decreased by thirty-some thousand and the Turkish one nearly doubled in the span of 5 years? Mainly because Albanains and to lesser extent Gypsies and Macedonian Muslims declared themselves Turkish to take advantage of the program set to allow to emigrate to Turkey. These people were promised land mainly in Anatolia in unpopulated lands and had to be "turkish" to emigrate. Once this agreement was over, there was no incentive to declare as "turkish" hence the Turkish figure declined over time.

Show me a proof of Turkish population in Macedonia doubling between 1948 to 1953. Show me the official cencus figures.


If 150.000 Albanians expelled to Turkey between 1950s to 1970s then explain us how come Turkish population declined from 210.000 to 108.000 while Albanian population increased from 160.000 to 280.000? How come Albanians maintained this enormous population growth(nearly doubles) in Macedonia while 150.000 of them has already been sent to Turkey?
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1523/clipboard22.jpg


If only the Albanians expelled to Turkey and if there was an agreement between Turkey and Tito, then tell me why 9 Turkish people in Macedonia has been hanged, about 100 Turks has been jailed and Turkish newspapers, magazines has been banned before the expulsion began? IF there was an agreement between the governments already, then what was that fuss about? AND if Albanians was going to be expelled, then why only the Turks has been punished instead?


It`s obviously not but even if what you say would be true, then why you guys here criticizing Turkey for the opportunist Albanians of Yugoslavia who pretended as Turks to be able to migrate to Turkey? I already told you several times here, this was an action plan of Tito against the Turks of Macedonia. They hanged 9 Turkish teachers and journalists, imprisoned 100+ more by falsely accusing them with being NATO spies. Only Turks suffered here but your opportunist Albanians tried to take advantage of these events and leave filthy Yugoslavia by sneakily blending among the leaving Turks.

I am telling you, we don't want your lot here. Start an initiative to call Albanians back to Albania, i will the first guy who will donate money to that.

Albania for the Albanians, Turkey for the Turks. So get your Albos back and send us a thank you note for taking care of them for 50 years, then we will be cool. I know you guys are oppurtunist, ungrateful and hypocrite people but we deserve a thank you note for giving a proper life to your poor Albos here.

[iNird]

Show me a proof of Turkish population in Macedonia doubling between 1948 to 1953. Show me the official cencus figures.


I love how you post the census from Wiki and want me to post a source. :D

I tried to look at the sources for the past census in Wiki for Macedonia and it appears the links have been changed. I was able to find this on the Macedonian government website:

www.stat.gov.mk/pdf/SG2010/03.%20Naselenie.pdf

However, the 1948 figures are not done by ethnicity, only it shows the total population of 1,152,986. Which matches to the total on the Wikipage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia

Also I found this:


In the 1948 census there were 95940 declared Turks in Macedonia and 197389 Albanians, while in the 1953 census there were 162524 Albanians.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tj4Jd3izAE0C&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=1948+census+macedonia&source=bl&ots=3gDNdDV3VR&sig=2MUBEbdmFM3h2B_Kv3dgFCxmY8Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E8TtT6PNEuSw0QGfyrn5DQ&ved=0CH8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=1948%20census%20macedonia&f=false

The author in this source asserts that this might due to the political situation (author claims Albania and Yugo had good relations while Turkey and Yugoslavia not so much.)


If 150.000 Albanians expelled to Turkey between 1950s to 1970s then explain us how come Turkish population declined from 210.000 to 108.000 while Albanian population increased from 160.000 to 280.000? How come Albanians maintained this enormous population growth(nearly doubles) in Macedonia while 150.000 of them has already been sent to Turkey?

Because the 1953 of Turkish figure was inflated to begin with. Most likley, not everyone that registered as a Turk in 1953 was able to emigrate to Turkey and there are some cases of people returning back immediately. Once this deal ended, these people that registered as Turks registered back in 1953 registered back as Albanian in later years because there was no incentive.

Also it is hard to say exactly how accurate the census is but I think it can be used in a general sense. So it's hard to use exact math with the numbers because even the number of emigrants is questionable. I believe Macedonian authorities claim 80,000 left for Turkey and Turkish authorities claim it was around 150,000.


If only the Albanians expelled to Turkey and if there was an agreement between Turkey and Tito, then tell me why 9 Turkish people in Macedonia has been hanged, about 100 Turks has been jailed and Turkish newspapers, magazines has been banned before the expulsion began? IF there was an agreement between the governments already, then what was that fuss about? AND if Albanians was going to be expelled, then why only the Turks has been punished instead?


Look Albanians were also mistreated probably much more than Turks, there are probably plenty of historical examples. There are stories of partisans gathering Albanians in mosques and slaughtering them like lambs after the war. Albanians were the most prosecuted because they were the most prominent group and the larger threat to Yugoslavia. Vasa Cubrilovic (member of the Serbian nationalist group that staged the 1914 assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand in Sarajevo) wrote that Albanians should either be exterminated or expelled to Turkey ffs.

I can give you a personal example. One of our family friends is a 70 year old woman and her father sided with the fascists during WWII. Well after the war the FYROMian forces killed him and dragged his dead corpse around the town. The family left for Turkey from pressure of being killed.

I don't see where you come up with these tales that Albanians were free from persecution. I mean the name Alexander Rankovic sends shivers to many Albanians, you probably have no clue who he is.


I am telling you, we don't want your lot here. Start an initiative to call Albanians back to Albania, i will the first guy who will donate money to that.

Albania for the Albanians, Turkey for the Turks. So get your Albos back and send us a thank you note for taking care of them for 50 years, then we will be cool. I know you guys are oppurtunist, ungrateful and hypocrite people but we deserve a thank you note for giving a proper life to your poor Albos here.

You're such an emotional queer. Retorting to red herring arguments. You can't prove your point so you bring up that Albanians from Turkey should be sent back. Well I would be for the idea (as long as they speak Albanian,have not intermarried and identify as Albanian first) but who is it for me or even you to say where these people should go. These people have been there for 50 years and tell them they should leave their houses, businesses, properties and way of life is a bit impractical.

Also not only are you an emotional queer but you are a hypocritical queer as well. So is Greece for Greeks? Weren't you the one that said if Greeks touch the "Turks" in thrace "you will kick their ass?"

Oh yes, I found it:



But i have to warn you because if you dare to touch and harm Turkish minority in western Thrace, we surely kick your facist, anarchist asses.

You're an emotional-illogical idiot and full of duck tales concerning history.

How the fuck did you become a mod?

:coffee:

[iNird]

BTW, when Onur posts about history, I think I will post this:

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/graphics/news3/DuckTales_V3.jpg

[iNird]

This is what Aydin Babuna, Professoar atThe Ataturk Institute for Modern Turkish History wrote in on his papers concerning treatments of Albanians.


Vardar Macedonia and Kosovo became parts of the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes which was established in 1918 after the First World War. In this state, the Albanians of Kosovo and Macedonia were not recognized as a distinct nation and were suppressed by the Serbs. Macedonia was referred to as “South Serbia” and Kosovo as “Old Serbia.”10 The use of the Albanian language was prohibited and Albanians were forced to emigrate.11


The Serbian offcials frst tried to assimilate the Albanians by offering them education only in the Serbian language. Bosnian Muslim teachers with pro-Serbian orientation were used to help in this process. When it became clear that Serbianization of the Albanians was doomed to failure and that the Serbian schools might produce some Albanian intellectuals in opposition to the regime, the Serbian officials began to prevent the Albanians from attending the public schools. The Albanians were allowed to follow religious education only in the so-called Turkish schools, mektebs (elementary schools) and medreses (secondary schools), employing the Arabic of the Quran and Turkish as the medium of education. The Serbian rulers hoped that these schools would keep the Albanians backward, but the Albanians were to turn these schools into underground centers of nationalist education and anti-goverment activities.19



The Albanians offered resistance to the Yugoslav Communist regime until 1948 and were subject to many atrocities during this period. However, the ethnic distinctiveness of the Albanians was recognized for the first time by this new state and Albanian-language schools were opened in Kosovo, Macedonia, and Montenegro.22 After the Tito–Stalin break in 1948, relations between Yugoslavia and Albania, which took the side of Soviet Union, worsened. This was to have negative effects on the situation of the ethnic Albanians in Yugoslavia, who were already considered suspect. The Yugoslav government discriminated against the Albanians politically, economically, and socially. Most Albanian-language schools were closed and measures were taken against the Albanian intelligentsia and teachers of history and the Albanian language. The commemoration of national holidays and the display of Albanian national symbols were banned.23

Concerning the emigration to Turkey:


By 1953 many Albanians who were fearful about their position in Yugoslavia had declared themselves to be “Turks.” The Yugoslav authorities also took measures to encourage people in Kosovo and Macedonia to identify themselves as Turks. The Turks were declared a national minority and new Turkish schools were opened. Since the term “Turk” was still used in the region as a general term for Muslims, it was acceptable to the devout elements among Muslim Albanians. These develop- ments seem to have been not only the product of a policy of divide and rule but also part of a plan aimed at the removal of large numbers of Albanians.24 In accordance with the treaty of 1953 signed with Turkey, Yugoslavia allowed large-scale emigration of Yugoslav “Turks” to Turkey. Extensive emigration took place in the period following 1953.25 However, some of them were in fact Muslim Albanians (mainly from Macedonia and Kosovo) who had claimed to be Turks in order to take advantage of the emigration treaty.26

[Pecheneg]

I am telling you, we don't want your lot here. Start an initiative to call Albanians back to Albania, i will the first guy who will donate money to that.

and i'll be the second.

[iNird]

and i'll be the second.

LAWL Onur's butt buddy joins in. You live in Turkey brah, remove them yourself.

:laugh:

[dralos]

i bet the alboz are much more liked in turkey then these two turks here:D

[iNird]

i bet the alboz are much more liked in turkey then these two turks here:D

Everytime I meet a Turk here they are so quick to call me "brother" even these dark looking turanids. It's only Turks that propose such ideas. Albanians on the other hand just give them a weird look.

:laugh:

[iNird]

BTW I don't even dislike Turks. Even with the Turks that are in the Balkans, I don't have anything against them. If they chose to identify as Turkish then so be it. I just don't think they are Turkish. But these Turks that act like everything in the Balkans je Turkiye or when you have Onur pushing nationalistic Turkish ideas that Albanians were not suppressed during the Yugo time and denying the identity of these emigrants to promote Turkish ideas, that's when I cross. Other than that, I don't have anything against Turks (well Western Turks that appear to be more Balkan-like.)

I still don't see how Onur can be a mod here with his duck tales and fallacious arguments. Mods are supposed to set example for other users. Onur? Seriously Loki?

:coffee:

[Anatolian Eagle]

We don't have any problems with Albanians in Turkey... One of my good friends is of Albanian origin... FFS

[Pecheneg]

Everytime I meet a Turk here they are so quick to call me "brother" even these dark looking turanids. It's only Turks that propose such ideas. Albanians on the other hand just give them a weird look.

:laugh:
LoL, plz come and see your diaspora albanians in Turkey :laugh:
Even some of them are Turkish nationalists and claiming Turkish ancestry.
These people are just grateful lambs, they are happy and enjoying Turkish hospitality in my country.
But it's time to return home, i don't want these shiptard parasites in my country, when their relatives talking shitty about Turks.




BTW I don't even dislike Turks. Even with the Turks that are in the Balkans, I don't have anything against them. If they chose to identify as Turkish then so be it. I just don't think they are Turkish. But these Turks that act like everything in the Balkans je Turkiye or when you have Onur pushing nationalistic Turkish ideas that Albanians were not suppressed during the Yugo time and denying the identity of these emigrants to promote Turkish ideas, that's when I cross. Other than that, I don't have anything against Turks (well Western Turks that appear to be more Balkan-like.)

Those sneaky opportunist albanians pretended as Turk to be able to migrate Turkey.
Now their brothers trying to insult us from a shithole country. I bet you and your family will be the first immigrants to Turkey, when another balkan war breaks out.



We don't have any problems with Albanians in Turkey... One of my good friends is of Albanian origin... FFS
I, also had nothing against them until i realize some facts about them.
Those people are hypocrites, they were fine with Turks when they were fleeing from balkans as immigrants. it was impossible to find a single albanian like inird faggot at that time.

[Illirico]

True Albanians are not friends of Turks.

Turks are barbarian invaders of our lands, they are jackals and mongrels manipulated by extremist Islamic ideology take from Arabs.
The mentality of an typical turk is this: " Are you Muslim? Oh yeah, you are my brother, you are Turk now! " Turks can assimilated also africans and aborigens if they convert to Islam :rolleyes2:

[Pecheneg]

True Albanians are not friends of Turks.

Turks are barbarian invaders of our lands, they are jackals and mongrels manipulated by extremist Islamic ideology take from Arabs.
The mentality of an typical turk is this: " Are you Muslim? Oh yeah, you are my brother, you are Turk now! " Turks can assimilated also africans and aborigens if they convert to Islam :rolleyes2:
I'm a muslim Turk and neither you nor arabs are my brothers.
You are beggar, hypocrite and poor nation, that's why there are hundreds of thousands of albanian coward immigrants in my country and their contribution to my county is "0".

you wanna hear mentality of shiptar?

when he was poor and immigrant:
"dear Turks, please accept us as immigrants to your country, we are religion brothers, Ottomans were great, plizzz...accept us.
We admire you bla bla bla (crying)"


behind the screens:
"Turks are mongrels, dirty muslims, i don't like them, they are invaders, Ottomans were barbarians, i hate Turks bla bla bla"

and believe me, If another balkan war outbreak, history will repeat itself and those albanians will declare us as "religion brothers".

[Illirico]

I'm a muslim Turk and neither you nor arabs are my brothers.
You are beggar, hypocrite and poor nation, that's why there are hundreds of thousands of albanian coward immigrants in my country and their contribution to my county is "0".

Ahahah an turk that say poor to other:icon_rolleyes::laugh:
Ask to an germant how to your mestizo race are so backward culturally and mentality;)

Study says Turks are Germany's worst integrated immigrants

The study carried out by the Berlin-based Institute for Population and Development found that 30 percent of Turks and those of Turkish origin did not finish school and only 14 percent took the Abitur, or the final secondary school exam that is the required qualification for university. But more than 50 percent of those in other migrant groups manage to do the same, the report said.

Immigrants of Turkish origin were also found to be the least successful in the labour market: they are often jobless, the percentage of housewives is high and many are dependent on welfare, the study said. The state of Saarland was found to have the worst record – 45 percent of its Turks had no educational qualification of any kind.

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20090125-16987.html

Turks, A people who really want to do. You are Parasites , this is, you turko-mongol spend the day at the bar in the European nations that maintain you layabouts with subsidies that europeans pay for you.:mad:

[Linet]

None of you know a thing...i ll tell you exactly what happened....

BALKAN TURKS THE TRUE STORY....:old:

The Aliens from the Alpha Centaurus travelled 1.200 light years to come to earth for scientific reasons. When they came here and they saw how messed up we are :dizzy:, they decided that science can do nothign about :noidea: us and so they decided to troll us :dielaughing:.
Their UFO roamed over the Balkan skies and saw that there is a specific nation that was ruling by force or the nations of the area :1099:. so they decided to play with them. Into the middle of the night they abducted all the Turks that lived into the Balkans and put them into the painting area. They decided that the funniest part of all would be if they looked like the nations they had under their command :laugh:. So they painted them lighter, they gave them blue and green eyes and the mighty Centaurian plastic surgeon, Mr Araruka821 :elf, changed their faces.
When the surgeries finished his comment was "I am the best :cool:, my job is perfect :wohoo:, down there they ll be totally confused and the generations to come will discuss about those people ansestry :gossip: heheheheh :bounce:"

...and his words as you see came true...:icon_yes:

[Optimus]

None of you know a thing...i ll tell you exactly what happened....

BALKAN TURKS THE TRUE STORY....:old:

The Aliens from the Alpha Centaurus travelled 1.200 light years to come to earth for scientific reasons. When they came here and they saw how messed up we are :dizzy:, they decided that science can do nothign about :noidea: us and so they decided to troll us :dielaughing:.
Their UFO roamed over the Balkan skies and saw that there is a specific nation that was ruling by force or the nations of the area :1099:. so they decided to play with them. Into the middle of the night they abducted all the Turks that lived into the Balkans and put them into the painting area. They decided that the funniest part of all would be if they looked like the nations they had under their command :laugh:. So they painted them lighter, they gave them blue and green eyes and the mighty Centaurian plastic surgeon, Mr Araruka821 :elf, changed their faces.
When the surgeries finished his comment was "I am the best :cool, my job is perfect :wohoo:, down there they ll totally confused and the generations to come will discuss about those people ansestry :gossip: heheheheh :bounce:"

...and his words as you see came true...:icon_yes:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/images/uploads/287696.jpeg

[Hayalet]

Turks, A people who really want to do. You are Parasites , this is, you turko-mongol spend the day at the bar in the European nations that maintain you layabouts with subsidies that europeans pay for you.:mad:
If we are parasites, what would that make you? A lowlier form of parasites? Isn't one of your arguments in this thread that Turkey has been a destination for Albanian immigrants? Think about it. ;)

[Anatolian Eagle]

LoL, plz come and see your diaspora albanians in Turkey :laugh:
Even some of them are Turkish nationalists and claiming Turkish ancestry.
These people are just grateful lambs, they are happy and enjoying Turkish hospitality in my country.
But it's time to return home, i don't want these shiptard parasites in my country, when their relatives talking shitty about Turks.




Those sneaky opportunist albanians pretended as Turk to be able to migrate Turkey.
Now their brothers trying to insult us from a shithole country. I bet you and your family will be the first immigrants to Turkey, when another balkan war breaks out.



I, also had nothing against them until i realize some facts about them.
Those people are hypocrites, they were fine with Turks when they were fleeing from balkans as immigrants. it was impossible to find a single albanian like inird faggot at that time.

Don't speak behalf on Albanians based on some posters here then. Because I know some Albanians in Turkey and they're not threat to Turkey, and I think your post is very extreme.

[Onur]

I love how you post the census from Wiki and want me to post a source.
The cencus states which i have posted here has been taken from official stat.gov.mk website.


However, the 1948 figures are not done by ethnicity, only it shows the total population of 1,152,986.

Also I found this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tj4Jd3izAE0C&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=1948+census+macedonia&source=bl&ots=3gDNdDV3VR&sig=2MUBEbdmFM3h2B_Kv3dgFCxmY8Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E8TtT6PNEuSw0QGfyrn5DQ&ved=0CH8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=1948%20census%20macedonia&f=false
So you couldn't present any source because you say that the 1948 census wasn't done according to ethnic groups. Then i have i question for you;

If the census of 1948 wasn't done by asking ethnic affiliation, then how come you and your author in the book claims that the number of Turkish people in Yugoslavia doubled from 1948 to 1952?

I smell dirty shiptar nationalistic propaganda here !!!


You can't prove your point so you bring up that Albanians from Turkey should be sent back. Well I would be for the idea (as long as they speak Albanian,have not intermarried and identify as Albanian first) but who is it for me or even you to say where these people should go. These people have been there for 50 years and tell them they should leave their houses, businesses, properties and way of life is a bit impractical.
It is you who cant prove your point. I present my sources which shows the sudden drop in Turkish population but you couldn't provide any source for your mythical "doubling Turkish people" claim. You even accepted that your claim was a myth because you say that they didn't ask ethnicity in the census of 1948. So, it wasn't possible to know the exact number of different ethnic groups. Your claim comes out as a myth in the end.


So is Greece for Greeks? Weren't you the one that said if Greeks touch the "Turks" in thrace "you will kick their ass?"
Your ranting towards me fails again.

You cannot compare the local Turks of western Thrace with your opportunist sneaky Albos who came to Turkey in 1950 by pretending to be Turks. Turks are living in western Thrace for at least 650 years but your sneaky Albos managed to settle in Turkey only 50-60 years ago.



We don't have any problems with Albanians in Turkey... One of my good friends is of Albanian origin... FFS
I don't have any problem with our Albos either. In fact, i have 3 Albanian friends here, two of them are named as Ilir.

The problem is these Albanians in Kosovo, Albania and Macedonia. They have absurd propaganda solely based on myths, constantly accusing us by stealing their Albos yet it`s proven many times that they tricked us in every way to migrate to Turkey. They are also denying the Turkish identity in Kosova and Macedonia and trying to assimilate all the Turks in there. They also deny our identity in Turkey too because of some opportunistic shiptars came to Turkey in 1950s.

Btw dont think like this absurd Albo stance is limited with these shiptar nationalists on the internet. The official Albanian universities and academies publishes these lies and accuses Turks. I can provide sources for that if you wanna see. They completely deny Turkish identity in Balkans and some more absurd claims

[Anatolian Eagle]

True Albanians are not friends of Turks.

Turks are barbarian invaders of our lands, they are jackals and mongrels manipulated by extremist Islamic ideology take from Arabs.
The mentality of an typical turk is this: " Are you Muslim? Oh yeah, you are my brother, you are Turk now! " Turks can assimilated also africans and aborigens if they convert to Islam :rolleyes2:

Ahahahahahahahhahah

Another one who thinks he's being more "European" if he hates Turks good, lol

We have nothing to do with damn Arabs now, nor we ever had. There are many in Europe who insult your nationality the same exact way you're insulting mine, with same words of yours, go figure :thumbs up

[Pecheneg]

Don't speak behalf on Albanians based on some posters here then. Because I know some Albanians in Turkey and they're not threat to Turkey, and I think your post is very extreme.
I had nothing against albanians when i was new in this forum, i was always patient, but enough is enough.
I know these are bunch of extremist idiots but I can't stay silent while they are insulting my nation.

[Onur]

I deleted some absurd, offensive and unrelated posts, so please try to keep it civil.

[Anatolian Eagle]

I had nothing against albanians when i was new in this forum, i was always patient, but enough is enough.
I know these are bunch of extremist idiots but I can't stay silent while they are insulting my nation.


I don't have any problem with our Albos either. In fact, i have 3 Albanian friends here, two of them are named as Ilir.

The problem is these Albanians in Kosovo, Albania and Macedonia. They have absurd propaganda solely based on myths, constantly accusing us by stealing their Albos yet it`s proven many times that they tricked us in every way to migrate to Turkey. They are also denying the Turkish identity in Kosova and Macedonia and trying to assimilate all the Turks in there. They also deny our identity in Turkey too because of some opportunistic shiptars came to Turkey in 1950s.

Btw dont think like this absurd Albo stance is limited with these shiptar nationalists on the internet. The official Albanian universities and academies publishes these lies and accuses Turks. I can provide sources for that if you wanna see. They completely deny Turkish identity in Balkans and some more absurd claims

Turkophobia is popular in this forum, I know... So some will try hard to insult Turks just to achieve some support, or to prove how good "European" they are lol. But this is internet afterall. We can't "hate" every single nation because some hate us. I wouldn't talk this way if I didn't know Albanians in Turkey. I usually try to refrain from generalization to others because most of Turkophobia comes from generalization and blind hatred.

[Linet]

I deleted some absurd, offensive and unrelated posts, so please try to keep it civil.

You deleted my post :thumb001:
...yes it was the most offensive....you got it ... i suppose the others are right about you, i was the wrong one :coffee:

[iNird]

The cencus states which i have posted here has been taken from official stat.gov.mk website.


You're an idiot. Do you honestly believe the below:

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1523/clipboard22.jpg

Is from the official Macedonian site? The macedonian government wouldn't use imageshack to upload their pictures lol. Googling the image, it appears the image has only been posted on Theapricity and Macedoniantruth.org, most likely you uploaded the photo lol.


So you couldn't present any source because you say that the 1948 census wasn't done according to ethnic groups. Then i have i question for you;



You either misunderstood or I wrote it incorrectly. I could not find the census for 1948 by ethnicity on the official Macedonian site. I couldn't find it for 1953 either. But I posted a book that showed the result for 1948. I'll post it again:


In the 1948 census there were 95940 declared Turks in Macedonia and 197389 Albanians, while in the 1953 census there were 162524 Albanians.


http://books.google.com/books?id=tj4Jd3izAE0C&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=1948+census+macedonia&source=bl&ots=3gDNdDV3VR&sig=2MUBEbdmFM3h2B_Kv3dgFCxmY8Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E8TtT6PNEuSw0QGfyrn5DQ&ved=0CH8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=1948%20census%20macedonia&f=false


I smell dirty shiptar nationalistic propaganda here !!!


LULzzzzzzzzzzzz


It is you who cant prove your point. I present my sources which shows the sudden drop in Turkish population but you couldn't provide any source for your mythical "doubling Turkish people" claim. You even accepted that your claim was a myth because you say that they didn't ask ethnicity in the census of 1948. So, it wasn't possible to know the exact number of different ethnic groups. Your claim comes out as a myth in the end.


Reread my stuff again. Also read my subsequent post about the "Turkization" of Albanians in Kosova/Macedonia.


Your ranting towards me fails again.

You cannot compare the local Turks of western Thrace with your opportunist sneaky Albos who came to Turkey in 1950 by pretending to be Turks. Turks are living in western Thrace for at least 650 years but your sneaky Albos managed to settle in Turkey only 50-60 years ago.


LULzzzzz you mad. You're a hypocrite plain and simple. "Turks" (well self declared Turks) are newcomers to the Balkans by that logic meaning we have the right to kick them out? Come on.


The problem is these Albanians in Kosovo, Albania and Macedonia. They have absurd propaganda solely based on myths, constantly accusing us by stealing their Albos yet it`s proven many times that they tricked us in every way to migrate to Turkey. They are also denying the Turkish identity in Kosova and Macedonia and trying to assimilate all the Turks in there. They also deny our identity in Turkey too because of some opportunistic shiptars came to Turkey in 1950s.

Btw dont think like this absurd Albo stance is limited with these shiptar nationalists on the internet. The official Albanian universities and academies publishes these lies and accuses Turks. I can provide sources for that if you wanna see. They completely deny Turkish identity in Balkans and some more absurd claims

I'm not going to respond to this crap. Honestly crap and from a moderator.

Enjoy this pic because your posts are filled with:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/48/DuckTales_(Main_title).jpg/300px-DuckTales_(Main_title).jpg

[Onur]

I had nothing against albanians when i was new in this forum, i was always patient, but enough is enough.
I know these are bunch of extremist idiots but I can't stay silent while they are insulting my nation.
Peçenek, this absurd stance of Albanians is not limited with these shiptars on the net, you can trust me on that.

I have a professor in my university who works on the late Balkan history. He is of Albanian descent, immigrants from 1950s. He can speak perfect Albanian and he showed me some publications from Tirana university professors and Albanian history academy in Albanian language. They are clearly hostile to us and spreading these absurd propaganda.

I am also in contact with a Turkish teacher in Macedonia, centar Zhupa. She told me their struggles with these shiptars in Macedonia several times, like their census falsifications when counting Turks of Macedonia, purposely tryirg to get marry with Turks and Macedonian muslims and then building up pressure upon them to declare themselves as Albanians, adopting all the Ottoman mosques and other monuments in there, planting red eagle shiptar flags on top of it all and many more like these...

Already, why you think these internet Albos constantly speaking same propaganda everywhere? From where they learn these things? Obviously, they don't invent these all by themselves.


I believe they are doing this because they are perfectly comfortable atm in Balkans, dreaming about greater Albania while assimilating Turks in there but they get irritated when they hear the word "Turk" because they perceive us as a threat to their greater Albania goals.

[iNird]

LoL, plz come and see your diaspora albanians in Turkey
Even some of them are Turkish nationalists and claiming Turkish ancestry.
These people are just grateful lambs, they are happy and enjoying Turkish hospitality in my country.
But it's time to return home, i don't want these shiptard parasites in my country, when their relatives talking shitty about Turks.


Of course they are. They have fully integrated and brainwashed in Turkish society. I'm not an Albanian from Turkey so if you don't want them there, kick them out. I don't give a shit about your fallacious arguments.


Those sneaky opportunist albanians pretended as Turk to be able to migrate Turkey.
Now their brothers trying to insult us from a shithole country. I bet you and your family will be the first immigrants to Turkey, when another balkan war breaks out.

Turkey? Nigga plz. They went to turkey due to the political situation and they had no other options. I would like to visit Turkey but to live?

:coffee:


I, also had nothing against them until i realize some facts about them.
Those people are hypocrites, they were fine with Turks when they were fleeing from balkans as immigrants. it was impossible to find a single albanian like inird faggot at that time.

Lulzz u mad.

[Linet]

Edit....:eyes

[Linet]

Sorry Onur baby :hug2:
My mistake...:embarrassed

[safinator]

:rofl:
So much nosense from our Turkish "friends" in one thread.

[iNird]

:rofl:
So much nosense from our Turkish "friends" in one thread.

To be fair it's just Onur and his butt buddy Pickanek. These two are such emotional queers.

:coffee:

[iNird]

I don't have any problem with our Albos either. In fact, i have 3 Albanian friends here, two of them are named as Ilir.

Also I think this is a lie. I can't imagine Albanians from Turkey with the name Ilir (which means "to be free" in Albanian.) The Albanians in Turkey mostly have Turkish or Semitic names. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of Albanians with Semitic names here as well but I have never seen or heard of an Albanian from turkey with an Albanian first or last name. But who knows.........

[Onur]

You deleted my post :thumb001:
...yes it was the most offensive....you got it ... i suppose the others are right about you, i was the wrong one :coffee:
I didn't delete any of your posts. You are imagining things in your mind. I don't have time for your childish games.

[Kanuni]

I see Onur is still spreading his propaganda regarding the assimilation/treating of Turks in Macedonia.No one is trying to assimilate or trying to occupy Ottoman buildings there.That is a flawless argument anyway.All of the things he said are pulled straight from his ass lol.

This guy is full of retardation.Regarding Albanians in Turkey and Albanians here there is not any difference on treating Turks.No one treats them bad here either,everyone is free to voice his opinion.If someone dislikes Turks then you should grow some backbone and accept it, not chant in internet antiTurk/Turk hater.The problem here came when this smurf(Onur) wants to spread propaganda.Just put an eye to the thread where he has said that Greek army who made massacres to civilians was in fact Albanian without giving any reliable source.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52515

He is the same as Albanians in Turkey,a Balkan immigrant.Albanians in Turkey don't own anything to anyone.Go say this things in front of them and i assure you you'll remember your day well.

Btw in the battle of Canakkale two of the commanders were Albanian in descent.One of them was who prepared the defense of Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmet_Esat_B%C3%BClkat

You are the ones who are ungrateful and talk shit in internet especially calling Albanians there sneaky people.Grow up some balls and say this things in real life.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

BTW, when Onur posts about history, I think I will post this:

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/graphics/news3/DuckTales_V3.jpg

lol..we already have a duck in this forum but he is not Turk..:rolleyes:
just saying....

[Illirico]

Ahahahahahahahhahah

Another one who thinks he's being more "European" if he hates Turks good, lol

We have nothing to do with damn Arabs now, nor we ever had. There are many in Europe who insult your nationality the same exact way you're insulting mine, with same words of yours, go figure :thumbs up

The difference is that Albanians are Europeans, you turks instead no, you are mongrels of Asia. You can believe but you do not belong to Europe. Then as an serbian or fanatic yugoslavian say african to albanian also the albanian call serbian gypsy, african etc This is the beauty of balkan people, we hate each other for the fault of barbarian non-european turko-mongol invasion.:thumb001:

[Onur]

I see Onur is still spreading his propaganda regarding the assimilation/treating of Turks in Macedonia.No one is trying to assimilate or trying to occupy Ottoman buildings there.That is a flawless argument anyway.All of the things he said are pulled straight from his ass lol.
Harsh Albanization policies in Kosova and Macedonia is a fact. Stop denying it. You guys also demonstrated several times here that you completely deny Turkish identity in Balkans and blatantly considering them as "turkified albos".


I spoke with a Turkish teacher from Skopje before about the Albanization issue in Macedonia. She sent me few of her own pics from Debar. She told me that last summer, Albanian mayor took a decision to build a new road to her village. Few days later, when they wake up in the morning, they see that the 17th century Ottoman era mosque has been demolished during the nighttime, without any notice and all of sudden. Also there was 10s of old graves beside the mosque, probably from 17-18th century again and they see that they crushed all these graves too and lots of bones was on the ground.
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8140/im000040f.jpg

She told me that lots of Turkish people in town rushed to the mayors bureau to ask how and why this happened. His explanation was that the 17th century mosque was standing on the path of the new road and it had to be demolished to be able to continue the construction and they promise that new mosque will be build there.

Here is the new mosque in Wahhabi style with albanian flag on top of it;
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/2130/im000044.jpg

She is an active member of a Turkish association in Macedonia and she was on Turkish tv channels b4, spoke about the difficulties of Turkish minority in Macedonia. She said that there is no Turkish school in Debar anymore and she had to move to Skopje to be able to work in a Turkish language school. They`ve met with the education ministry in Macedonia on behalf of her association and they spoke about the Turkish schools in Bitola and Debar. When they ask about the situation of Turkish schools in these cities, the officer of education ministry blatantly answered to them like "Isn't the Turkish soup operas enough for you?". Ofc the administrator in education ministry was Albanian.

So she basically said that Turkish children in Macedonia are kinda encouraged to study in Albanian because there is no Turkish schools even in Debar or in places where Turkish people still more than Albanians, there is no Turkish schools but there is Albanian one.

She also told me the falsifications of Albanian officers in the previous census. She said that Albanian officers purposely used regular pencils when they counted aged Turks in their home and then they erased their ethnicity mark and changed it to Albanian option with a ballpoint pen afterward.

[Anatolian Eagle]

The difference is that Albanians are Europeans, you turks instead no, you are mongrels of Asia. You can believe but you do not belong to Europe. Then as an serbian or fanatic yugoslavian say african to albanian also the albanian call serbian gypsy, african etc This is the beauty of balkan people, we hate each other for the fault of barbarian non-european turko-mongol invasion.:thumb001:

lol I appreciate your efforts to make me sink down to your level and to insult you same way but no gtfo please. There are hella tons of people in Europe that look down to Albania the same way you look down to Turkey, they don't even recognize Albania as a European. Keep it going, there will be always people who will "love" you for your words that even you don't believe or have no clue about. rofl :coffee:

[Onur]

This is the web site of Balkan immigrants association in Turkey;
http://www.rumelibalkanfederasyonu.org/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1115:ueskuepte-5-asrlk-osmanli-camiinin-kalan-parcalar-dozerle-yerlebir-edildi&catid=8:makedonya&Itemid=44

In the article from last year, it says that Arasta mosque built in 15th century has been destroyed by bulldozers. It was the Albanian IVZ association who did this by their own will and without any permission. It also says that just one month b4 this incident occurs, Cair municipality already agreed with the municipality of Bursa in Turkey to finance all the restoration work of Arasta mosque and everyone in Turkey, including the governor of Bursa has been shocked about this sad news because it was already decided that all the funds were going to come from them and everything for the restoration work had already been set up.

The mosque destroyed by the Albanians, built in 15th century;
http://www.kanal5.com.mk/upload/vesti/WESTIII/dzamija_carsija_1.jpg

The construction of the new mosque on top of the Ottoman mosque ruins, probably in Wahhabi style and surely with an Albo flag on top of it;
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/mitatos/arasta001-1.jpg



Here are more examples of Albanians hijacking Turkish history and confiscating of the Ottoman Turkish buildings in Macedonia;

16th century Ottoman mosque in Tetovo, confiscated with an albanian flag;
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4058/5137846166_03e65b0d74_b.jpg

Tetovo castle built by the Turks, hijacked with an Albanian eagle signs;
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1421/5098596283_397552d97d_o.jpg


Do you want me to post more of those pictures of Albanians either destroying or confiscating every Ottoman era monuments in Macedonia and Kosova by planting Albanian flags and symbols everywhere?

I have some contacts in Macedonia and i know what kind of sneaky businesses your Albanian lot are up to in there.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Albanin hate of Turks is so pathetic. All Albanians have is a bunch of Illyrian delusions of past glories gone. Meanwhile the Turks have a history of 2000 years and most of it is of Turks strong and not pathetic like Albanian Turk haters.

[iNird]

I see Onur is still spreading his propaganda regarding the assimilation/treating of Turks in Macedonia.No one is trying to assimilate or trying to occupy Ottoman buildings there.That is a flawless argument anyway.All of the things he said are pulled straight from his ass lol.

This guy is full of retardation.Regarding Albanians in Turkey and Albanians here there is not any difference on treating Turks.No one treats them bad here either,everyone is free to voice his opinion.If someone dislikes Turks then you should grow some backbone and accept it, not chant in internet antiTurk/Turk hater.The problem here came when this smurf(Onur) wants to spread propaganda.Just put an eye to the thread where he has said that Greek army who made massacres to civilians was in fact Albanian without giving any reliable source.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52515

He is the same as Albanians in Turkey,a Balkan immigrant.Albanians in Turkey don't own anything to anyone.Go say this things in front of them and i assure you you'll remember your day well.

Btw in the battle of Canakkale two of the commanders were Albanian in descent.One of them was who prepared the defense of Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmet_Esat_B%C3%BClkat

You are the ones who are ungrateful and talk shit in internet especially calling Albanians there sneaky people.Grow up some balls and say this things in real life.

It's funny though they call us haters but none of the Albanians from FYROM or Kosova or calling for Turks to change their identity or to move out of these countries if they don't like it in this thread. As soon as these Turks are criticized they attack like wild dogs.

[poiuytrewq0987]

It's funny though they call us haters but none of the Albanians from FYROM or Kosova or calling for Turks to change their identity or to move out of these countries if they don't like it in this thread. As soon as these Turks are criticized they attack like wild dogs.

Turks are our comrades and if they are insulted or made up about in an utterly ridiculous way of course they will attack like wild dogs against Albanin defamers and delusionals.

[iNird]

Harsh Albanization policies in Kosova and Macedonia is a fact. Stop denying it. You guys also demonstrated several times here that you completely deny Turkish identity in Balkans and blatantly considering them as "turkified albos".


You have no clue what you are talking about. There are public and private Turkish schools in FYROM. The Turks in Kosova enjoy many rights, none of which the Albanians in Turkey get.


I spoke with a Turkish teacher from Skopje before about the Albanization issue in Macedonia. She sent me few of her own pics from Debar. She told me that last summer, Albanian mayor took a decision to build a new road to her village. Few days later, when they wake up in the morning, they see that the 17th century Ottoman era mosque has been demolished during the nighttime, without any notice and all of sudden. Also there was 10s of old graves beside the mosque, probably from 17-18th century again and they see that they crushed all these graves too and lots of bones was on the ground.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8140/im000040f.jpg

She told me that lots of Turkish people in town rushed to the mayors bureau to ask how and why this happened. His explanation was that the 17th century mosque was standing on the path of the new road and it had to be demolished to be able to continue the construction and they promise that new mosque will be build there.

Here is the new mosque in Wahhabi style with albanian flag on top of it;
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/2130/im000044.jpg


This could be true but it sounds like one mosque was destroyed for another mosque. I wouldn't call this "Albanianization" or an attack on Turkish identity.



She is an active member of a Turkish association in Macedonia and she was on Turkish tv channels b4, spoke about the difficulties of Turkish minority in Macedonia. She said that there is no Turkish school in Debar anymore and she had to move to Skopje to be able to work in a Turkish language school. They`ve met with the education ministry in Macedonia on behalf of her association and they spoke about the Turkish schools in Bitola and Debar. When they ask about the situation of Turkish schools in these cities, the officer of education ministry blatantly answered to them like "Isn't the Turkish soup operas enough for you?". Ofc the administrator in education ministry was Albanian.


First off, I find it hard for her not to get a job as a Turkish teacher in Macedonia. I don't think you realize this but there are many private Turkish schools in Macedonia.

Secondly, the official Macedonian government website reports there are 62 primary and lower schools carried out in Turkish out of 990 in 2010. Roughly 6.2% of primary and lower schools are carried out in Turkish (and I don't think this even counts the private schools.)

Also there were 9,011 Turkish students enrolled in primary and secondary schools in Macedonia out of 201,914 students for 2010. Roughly 4.4% of students enrolled in lower and primary school in Macedonia for 2010 were Turks. It appears that Turkish students have more than enough schools to attend to. In fact, on the census for 2002 the Turks made up under 4% of the population. It appears Turks are representative in the educational system. So please enough with your duck tales.

Here's the link btw:

www.stat.gov.mk/Publikacii/2.4.12.06.pdf

Also the Official Macedonian government website reports 77 Turkish kids enrolled in primary or secondary school in Debar/Dibra and Bitola has 15.

PS:

Albanians make up under 4% of the population in Bitola. Not sure they have much on the impact in public affairs.

[iNird]

Turks are our comrades and if they are insulted or made up about in an utterly ridiculous way of course they will attack like wild dogs against Albanin defamers and delusionals.

LOL. You created this thread for one. Secondly no one really attacked them, we gave our opinion on this topic that Balkan Turks are most likely not of "Turkish" descent. That is all. No one has stated that these Balkan Turks must assimilate or should be kicked out. These turks on the other hand.......

[iNird]

This is the web site of Balkan immigrants association in Turkey;
http://www.rumelibalkanfederasyonu.org/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1115:ueskuepte-5-asrlk-osmanli-camiinin-kalan-parcalar-dozerle-yerlebir-edildi&catid=8:makedonya&Itemid=44

In the article from last year, it says that Arasta mosque built in 15th century has been destroyed by bulldozers. It was the Albanian IVZ association who did this by their own will and without any permission. It also says that just one month b4 this incident occurs, Cair municipality already agreed with the municipality of Bursa in Turkey to finance all the restoration work of Arasta mosque and everyone in Turkey, including the governor of Bursa has been shocked about this sad news because it was already decided that all the funds were going to come from them and everything for the restoration work had already been set up.

The mosque destroyed by the Albanians, built in 15th century;
http://www.kanal5.com.mk/upload/vesti/WESTIII/dzamija_carsija_1.jpg

The construction of the new mosque on top of the Ottoman mosque ruins, probably in Wahhabi style and surely with an Albo flag on top of it;
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/mitatos/arasta001-1.jpg



Here are more examples of Albanians hijacking Turkish history and confiscating of the Ottoman Turkish buildings in Macedonia;

16th century Ottoman mosque in Tetovo, confiscated with an albanian flag;
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4058/5137846166_03e65b0d74_b.jpg

Tetovo castle built by the Turks, hijacked with an Albanian eagle signs;
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1421/5098596283_397552d97d_o.jpg


Do you want me to post more of those pictures of Albanians either destroying or confiscating every Ottoman era monuments in Macedonia and Kosova by planting Albanian flags and symbols everywhere?

I have some contacts in Macedonia and i know what kind of sneaky businesses your Albanian lot are up to in there.

I wouldn't call these buildings Turkish exactly they were ottoman buildings. There's a good chance they were built by Albanians. Also I wouldn't call the destruction of the mosque an "Albanian" doing. If they were destroyed for say an Albanian school or an Albanian historical site or an Albanian historical statute, sure. But for another mosque? Probably more of an islamic agenda than an Albanian one.....

Edit:

After doing a bit of wiki resesarch (which you love so much). I found the following about it:


Tetovo Kale Fortress (Baltepes Fortress), located on the top of the Baltepes hill, above Tetovo. It was built in 1820 from Abdurahman Pasha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetovo


The direct cause of the uprising, was the arresting and liquidation of the local Albanophone pashas, most notably that of Abdurrahman Pasha of Tetovo and his two brothers, Havzi Pasha of Üsküb (now Skopje) and Hussein Pasha of Kustendil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Revolt_of_1843%E2%80%931844#cite_note-4

It appears it was built by an Albanian pasha. Not sure how reliable it is. The source can't be any worse than your duck tales.

[Kanuni]

I have already stated my opinion,your arguments are flawed Onur.There is no chance you can destroy a 16-17th century mosque in a night.Don't make up things and there is no Wahhabi style of Mosque since Wahhabis are quite in minority and don't even hold any importance,moreover if you just know a bit about Wahhabis you will know that they are not nationalistic at all so they will never put a Albanian flag in a Mosque.

Regarding the eagle on the castle lol you are such a retard.I have heard you were posting anti-Albanian comments on macedoniantruthweb/forum or whatever it is.What the hell a Turkish nationalist has to do in that forum anyway!?:laugh:

I am waiting when you will drop off all of this pseudo-science you are using in this forum.How come the Greek army who commited massacre upon civilians and who participated in the Anatolian invasion was Albanian according to you?You are seeing Albanians everywhere.Sod off.

[iNird]

Seriously this guy is so delusional. The way he twists facts and stories to support the Turkish cause is sickening. And he's a Mod? LOL.

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMjEzOTk1MzQwNl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwODE1MDIzMQ@@._ V1._SY317_CR5,0,214,317_.jpg

[rashka]

A number of Turks in Kosovo lived amongst Serbs and there were no problems, as far as I know. Is there a reason for this? Perhaps it is because those ones spoke Serbian and not Albanian? I am not sure how many Turks were expelled from Kosovo or killed by Albanians. I did hear of some or they might have been gypsies that were killed.

[dralos]

A number of Turks in Kosovo lived amongst Serbs and there were no problems, as far as I know. Is there a reason for this? Perhaps it is because those ones spoke Serbian and not Albanian? I am not sure how many Turks were expelled from Kosovo or killed by Albanians. I did hear of some or they might have been gypsies that were killed.
keep smoking that shit:D

[Anatolian Eagle]

Most of Balkan Turks are actually Anatolian Turks who were exiled to Balkans by Ottomans. Most notably of them are Karamanids (Turks). Their beylik were conquered by Ottomans and Ottomans exiled a considerable number of their population to Balkans and seperated it in order to prevent to further trouble or rebellions coming from them. I believe they also did same thing to other Anatolian Turkish principalities/beyliks after Ottomans conquered their territory. And some people actually think Turks had awesome timez under Ottoman Empire. sigh

[Onur]

Most of Balkan Turks are actually Anatolian Turks who were exiled to Balkans by Ottomans. Most notably of them are Karamanids (Turks). Their beylik were conquered by Ottomans and Ottomans exiled a considerable number of their population to Balkans and seperated it in order to prevent to further trouble or rebellions coming from them. I believe they also did same thing to other Anatolian Turkish principalities/beyliks after Ottomans conquered their territory. And some people actually think Turks had awesome timez under Ottoman Empire. sigh
Thats true. After the major defeat against Timur in 1402 and the role of the Turkmen beys who were sided with Timur against the monarchy, the whole Ottoman strategy was to exile the potentially rival Turkmen tribes of Anatolia to Balkans to prevent any rebellion against the monarchy. Some of them has been exiled to today`s Iran, Iraq and Azerbaijan, the rest has been exiled to Balkans.

[Azalea]

Dumb Albanian cherry-picking of Ottoman history. It's funny how the Ottoman Empire all of the sudden changes into an multi-ethnic empire when it comes to architecture and other stuff they like, but at the same time, how they are being despised for being barbaric Turkic invaders. Idiots. The Ottoman Empire has never been an Empire ruled by one single ethnic group. Like with most Empires, the Elites and the rulers were made-up by the various peoples of the Empire. So the castle, wether it's builed by an Albanian or not, was Ottoman.

[Kanuni]

Dumb Albanian cherry-picking of Ottoman history. It's funny how the Ottoman Empire all of the sudden changes into an multi-ethnic empire when it comes to architecture and other stuff they like, but at the same time, how they are being despised for being barbaric Turkic invaders. Idiots. The Ottoman Empire has never been an Empire ruled by one single ethnic group. Like with most Empires, the Elites and the rulers were made-up by the various peoples of the Empire. So the castle, wether it's builed by an Albanian or not, was Ottoman.

Dumb cherry picking is by your side.The argument was completely other not cherrypickg of Ottoman History.

According to Onur's logic i suppose Italians/Greeks should blame the Macedonians for trying to occupy the Skopje Fortress by puting the Macedonian flag there which was built during Roman/Byzantine times.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/KaleFortress-Skopje1.JPG/300px-KaleFortress-Skopje1.JPG

[Pecheneg]

Most of Balkan Turks are actually Anatolian Turks who were exiled to Balkans by Ottomans. Most notably of them are Karamanids (Turks). Their beylik were conquered by Ottomans and Ottomans exiled a considerable number of their population to Balkans and seperated it in order to prevent to further trouble or rebellions coming from them. I believe they also did same thing to other Anatolian Turkish principalities/beyliks after Ottomans conquered their territory. And some people actually think Turks had awesome timez under Ottoman Empire. sigh


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qaraei#Etymology
Don't forget the Kara-Tatars of central anatolia.

As part of the Ottoman Army under their chiefs Minnet Bey and Minnetoglu Mehmed-beg they settled in (Filibe, Bulgaria) and conquered Bosnia.

and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_of_Bulgaria

DNA research investigating the three largest population groups in Bulgaria: Bulgarians, Bulgarian Turks and Gypsies confirms with Y-chromosomal STR haplotype analysis that there are significant differences between the three ethnic groups. The study revealed a high number of population-specific haplotypes and a low degree of haplotype sharing between the three ethnic communities.

[Onur]

According to Onur's logic i suppose Italians/Greeks should blame the Macedonians for trying to occupy the Skopje Fortress by puting the Macedonian flag there which was built during Roman/Byzantine times.
Another absurd logic by an Albo.

Turks were ruling in there exactly as 100 years ago and Turks are still lives in there as a minority.

Roman connection with Macedonia ended loooonnng time ago and there is no Roman citizen living in Macedonia anymore.


You Albanians have no right to pollute Ottoman era monuments with your mythical illyria flags while Turkish people still lives in there. You cannot adopt these and present it as supposedly your own.

It`s not even Albania ffs, these are in the republic of Macedonia. What kind of people you have in there? with zero respect neither to Turks nor to Macedonians and with a blatant arrogance by planting your own flag on someone else`s monument in someone else`s country.

[Kanuni]

Another absurd logic by an Albo.

Turks were ruling in there exactly as 100 years ago and Turks are still lives in there as a minority.

Roman connection with Macedonia ended loooonnng time ago and there is no Roman citizen living in Macedonia anymore.


You Albanians have no right to pollute Ottoman era monuments with your mythical illyria flags while Turkish people still lives in there. You cannot adopt these and present it as supposedly your own.

It`s not even Albania ffs, these are in the republic of Macedonia. What kind of people you have in there? with zero respect neither to Turks nor to Macedonians and with a blatant arrogance by planting your own flag on someone else`s monument in someone else`s country.

Absurd logic is from Turk side.


Dumb Albanian cherry-picking of Ottoman history. It's funny how the Ottoman Empire all of the sudden changes into an multi-ethnic empire when it comes to architecture and other stuff they like, but at the same time, how they are being despised for being barbaric Turkic invaders. Idiots. The Ottoman Empire has never been an Empire ruled by one single ethnic group. Like with most Empires, the Elites and the rulers were made-up by the various peoples of the Empire. So the castle, wether it's builed by an Albanian or not, was Ottoman.

You say one thing one time and you change your statements as i change my underwear.Most of Turks from Skopje region are in fact Albanians and Torbesh who speak the Turkish language.They can actually trace their origin from Albanian families.Personally i know many cases of that.

Let us suppose that most of those Turks came from Anatolia.Neither them and neither Macedonians are native to Skopje or WestMacedonia.So putting the flag there is not disrespect to anyone.We can do whatever we want.If you don't know shit about history then either shut up or GTFO.You seem to be very connected to FYROM.I bet your blood is calling on it.

[iNird]

Not that I give a shit but how many ancient Greek/Roman buildings and monuments are now claimed by Turks. FFS Hagia Sophia used to be a Church, now a mosque and now a museum. And you people want to talk about desecrating ancient monuments?

Putting an Albanian flag on a castle, in a predominately Albanian area is not the end of the world. Who are you to tell us where we can or can not put up our flags? This Turkish arrogance is unmatched. We'll do as we please and we'll answer to Macedonians and maybe to some of these "Turks" in Macedonia, but we don't give a shit what what a Turk from Turkey has to say.

[iNird]

Let the hypocrisy begin:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Maiden_tower.JPG

A Turkish flag on the Maiden tower.

Some ancient fortress (probably Greek/Roman)

http://static8.depositphotos.com/1020626/874/i/950/depositphotos_8742772-Ancient-fortress-with-Turkish-flag.jpg

:coffee:

[iNird]

And with that, I'm out of this thread. Onur will come in with his duck tales and twist how the Turks have the right to put up flags because they are more legitimate or some shit. More useless, fallacious and unbased claims to support his pro-Turkish ideas.

Great mod choice. If everyone on this forum argued the way he did it would be a mad house.

:coffee:

[Gospodine]

Dumb Albanian cherry-picking of Ottoman history. It's funny how the Ottoman Empire all of the sudden changes into an multi-ethnic empire when it comes to architecture and other stuff they like, but at the same time, how they are being despised for being barbaric Turkic invaders. Idiots. The Ottoman Empire has never been an Empire ruled by one single ethnic group. Like with most Empires, the Elites and the rulers were made-up by the various peoples of the Empire. So the castle, wether it's builed by an Albanian or not, was Ottoman.

What's funny to me is how Turks only embrace their "Ottoman" heritage when it's convenient for them to do so.

If we were talking about the Armenian Genocide, a lot of Turks would emphasize the distinction between the new republic of Turkey and the Ottoman Empire as two totally different, non-consecutive political entities that cannot be held responsible for each others policies (just like they did on the Armenian Genocide thread).

When it comes to the Balkans though, it seems anything once touched by the Ottoman Empire is Turkish, people with vaguely Turkish surnames are Turkish, we all have distant Turkish ancestry, etc...

When the opposite is more likely; there are untold millions of people in Western Turkey with Balkan roots and most of them are largely unaware of their ancestry because it's been thoroughly Turkified. Their names were forcibly changed, their native languages were forbidden to be used in schools or businesses as well as in community newspapers/radio stations/TV programs and their contact with their country of origin was severely limited.

But no, the Turks would rather focus on scattered, insignificant ethnic minorities in Bulgaria and Macedonia and South Slavic people with last names that sound "Turkish".

To this day, the fact that ethnic Turks or people who self-declare as ethnic Turks still live Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece, Serbia and Albania in relatively large numbers, in their own ethnically-conscious communities where they are free to use their language, customs and religious practices as they see fit, speaks volumes about how much more tolerance was preached in the Balkans as opposed to Turkey.

There were exceptions like Communist Bulgaria for instance, but for the most part the ethnic Turk minorities lived secluded and amicable lives.
Even inter-marriage between ethnic Turks and Balkan ethnic groups is not that uncommon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srgjan_Kerim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A2z%C4%B1m_%C3%96zalp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muamet_Asanovski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yksel_Osmanovski

Now give me an example of a half Turk, half Armenian person of any note. Or a half Turk, half Kurd.

[Pecheneg]

What's funny to me is how Turks only embrace their "Ottoman" heritage when it's convenient for them to do so.

When we denied it?
i personally dislike later Ottomans for some reasons, that's all.



When the opposite is more likely; there are untold millions of people in Western Turkey with Balkan roots and most of them are largely unaware of their ancestry.
and you are such a hypocrite, according to you; there is no single person with Turkish roots in balkans, but in Turkey there are billions of Turkified balkanites right? You consider all balkan immigrants as Turkified, while actually most of them were Balkan Turks.
Bosnians of Turkey very aware of their origins. They know who they are!

Fnnega2JfDg
WuEjhk3dMTU

[Gospodine]

Pecenek you can't even distinguish between millions and billions.

If you want to debate at least don't deliberately misquote people like a retard, alright?

As for the Bosnians in your cherry-picked YouTube videos, they're only allowed this degree of ethnic affirmation because they're Bosniaks and because they're Muslim (at least in name).

Turks have some bizarre, romanticized national image of Bosniaks as their kindred spirits in the Balkans who keep alive old Ottoman traditions; when the fact of the matter is most Bosnians are largely indifferent to Turkey or couldn't give a crap about it.

In fact thousands of religious Turks go to Sarajevo to study because they're allowed to wear hijabs, unlike in Turkish universities.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/05/us-bosnia-turkey-universities-idUSTRE6343VJ20100405

I'm willing to bet every last one of those Turkish-Bosnians, if they are indeed naturalized citizens of Turkey, has changed their surnames because the Turks don't like Slavic-sounding names and speak nothing but Turkish.

I only heard some song being sung in broken Serbo-Croat, everyone in those videos seems fluent in Turkish.

Now show me videos of Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Arabs or Albanians in Turkey retaining their language, customs and ethnic identity?

Oh that's right, that would constitute "Insulting Turkishness", charges which a carry a potential prison term of up to 10 years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_301_%28Turkish_Penal_Code%29


there is no single person with Turkish roots in balkans,

Stop misquoting seriously.



Of course they inter-married, but no where near to the degree that you're assuming or indeed most Turks do.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=985160&postcount=66

[Onur]

and you are such a hypocrite, according to you; there is no single person with Turkish roots in balkans, but in Turkey there are billions of Turkified balkanites right? You consider all balkan immigrants as Turkified, while actually most of them were Balkan Turks.
Bosnians of Turkey very aware of their origins. They know who they are!
Peçenek, isn't it funny the guy who accuses Turkey for turkifying Bosnians cannot speak Bosnian language himself while he is probably the first generation born in Australia BUT the Bosnians who lives in Turkey since 1860s still speaks Bosnian while proudly expressing their roots? I am quite sure that the descendants of this Gospodine guy and the other Bosnians in Australia will only speak English and carry the names like John, Marry, Jack. How ironic isn't it?

I always see cases like that. It`s also same for Armenians. For example, i saw lots of Armenians from France accusing Turkey for denying the rights of Armenians while these so-called Armenians from France are catholics adhere to French catholic church, named as Jean Pierre or Jacques and totally ignorant to Armenian language despite the fact that they are just the 2nd generation of Armenians in France. While Armenians in Turkey still adhere to their own Armenian orthodox church, speaks Armenian perfectly today and have proper Armenian names like Hrant, Aram, Dikran for more than 900+ years. No one ever told these people to use Turkish names like Mehmet, Ahmet but they are using their own proper Armenian names while living under Turkish regime for 900+ years.


Now show me videos of Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Arabs or Albanians in Turkey retaining their language, customs and ethnic identity?
You have zero knowledge about Turkey and you come up here blatantly asking about the existence of Armenians, Greeks of Turkey retaining their culture. You are totally ignorant about these issues.

[Pecheneg]

Pecenek you can't even distinguish between millions and billions.

it was an allusion you smartass.

[Gospodine]

Peçenek, isn't it funny the guy who accuses Turkey for turkifying Bosnians cannot speak Bosnian language himself

Where are you pulling this from? Aside from your ass.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978051&postcount=45
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978054&postcount=46
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978078&postcount=50
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=977938&postcount=12
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980387&postcount=28
http://www.theapricity.com/forum
/showpost.php?p=980401&postcount=32 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980401&postcount=32)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980432&postcount=36
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978113&postcount=52
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=985882&postcount=204

You can also talk to the Serbian mod Lena and ask her to confirm it for you as well.

Strawman argument: Demolished.

Next one?

Now would you mind refuting my posts... rather than throwing a tantrum like a child.

[Anatolian Eagle]

Where are you pulling this from? Aside from your ass.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978051&postcount=45
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978054&postcount=46
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978078&postcount=50
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=977938&postcount=12
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980387&postcount=28
http://www.theapricity.com/forum
/showpost.php?p=980401&postcount=32 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980401&postcount=32)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980432&postcount=36
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978113&postcount=52
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=985882&postcount=204

You can also talk to the Serbian mod Lena and ask her to confirm it for you as well.

Strawman argument: Demolished.

Next one?

Now would you mind refuting my posts... rather than throwing a tantrum like a child.

Lena is Serbian. Why can't bosnian confirm you? :rolleyes:

[Pecheneg]

Well, I'm fine with Bosniaks and even this australo-bosnian propoganda machine can't change mine mind about them.

[Gospodine]

Well, I'm fine with Bosniaks and even this australo-bosnian propoganda machine can't change mine mind about them.

Lol.
Real humanitarian right here.

And I don't hate Turks. But I hate Turkish nationalism, just the same way I dislike Balkan nationalism and you can go through my posting history to see the amount of times I've argued with Balkan Nordicist idiots on here, despite the fact I've only been a member for a few days.

Me saying there are millions of people descended from the Balkans in Turkey is not nationalism, since I've never claimed that as a result we have some sort of cultural, historical or territorial claim to Turkey.

I'm simply stating, contrary to popular belief in Turkey, there is more ethnic admixture on your side, not ours.

Turks live in the past too much. They think we're all bitter over the Ottoman invasion or something and we're playing the "sore loser" game, but the truth of the matter is, even in historically strongly anti-Turkish countries such as Serbia, there is a new wave of outreach and reconciliation:
http://www.sundayszaman.com/sunday/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=264013

[Pecheneg]

7
I only heard some song being sung in broken Serbo-Croat, everyone in those videos seems fluent in Turkish.
Now show me videos of Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Arabs or Albanians in Turkey retaining their language, customs and ethnic identity?

Search it yourself !, i can't waste my time on hateful people like you.
show me a single Turk in Armenia retaining his langauge, customs, ethnic idendity you hypocrite pseudo-liberal polyanna!

[Anatolian Eagle]

Search it yourself !, i can't waste my time on hateful people like you.
show me a single Turk in Armenia retaining his langauge, customs, ethnic idendity you hypocrite pseudo-liberal polyanna!

Which Turks in Armenia? :coffee:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Comparison_table_of_armenian_azeri_kurdish_po pulation_of_armenia.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Comparison_table_of_armenian_azeri_kurdish_po pulation_of_armenia.jpg

[Gospodine]

Why can't bosnian confirm you? :rolleyes:

Do you see the part where her and I are having a conversation?

My god you people are laughable. I should in all honesty be asking you to confirm to me you're 18 and have an education because you're probably several years younger and school holidays have just started, hence why you're following me around like flies to turds on this forum.

May also interest you to know she agrees with my sentiment:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=960897&postcount=2

[Kanuni]

@Gospodine don't waste your time by debating this ultra internet nationalist Turks.If you just speak your mind what do you think on a issue you are hateful person/imposer/ungrateful/Turk hater/anti Turk.I am telling you this guys are not accustomed to free speech.

Besides, you said no national insult here as per downgrading the Turks in comparison with what many others do but they consider it as ultra hateful comments.

[Pecheneg]

Lol.
Real humanitarian right here.

And I don't hate Turks. But I hate Turkish nationalism, just the same way I dislike Balkan nationalism and you can go through my posting history to see the amount of times I've argued with Balkan Nordicist idiots on here, despite the fact I've only been a member for a few days.

Me saying there are millions of people descended from the Balkans in Turkey is not nationalism, since I've never claimed that as a result we have some sort of cultural, historical or territorial claim to Turkey.

I'm simply stating, contrary to popular belief in Turkey, there is more ethnic admixture on your side, not ours.

Turks live in the past too much. They think we're all bitter over the Ottoman invasion or something and we're playing the "sore loser" game, but the truth of the matter is, even in historically strongly anti-Turkish countries such as Serbia, there is a new wave of outreach and reconciliation:
http://www.sundayszaman.com/sunday/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=264013
presence of diaspora albanians and bosnians in Turkey doesn't mean balkan admixture in Turkish people. It's like afro-american presence in usa, doesn't mean average american citizen have afro admix.


"And I don't hate Turks. But I hate Turkish nationalism"
Very popular words from pseudo-liberal :laugh: don't play the angel for God's sake.

[Linet]

My bunny :bunny000: was shot and powned :blink:

[Gospodine]

presence of diaspora albanians and bosnians in Turkey doesn't mean balkan admixture in Turkish people. It's like afro-american presence in usa, doesn't mean average american citizen have afro admix.
.

So you agree there are far more Balkan people in Turkey than vice versa?
I believe you also quoted that Wiki article that stated the genetic distances between Bulgarians, Bulgarian Turks and Bulgarian Roma are significant, hence it stands to reason that the Turks in the Balkans didn't inter-marry with the local population in any significant number.

Obviously since genetic testing hasn't been done on this issue (in Turkey) and probably never will be given the politics involved, we can't be certain but given the massive exodus of people from the Balkans into Turkey in the late 1800's and early 1900's (and this was on the order of many millions at the least), I think it stands to reason Western Turkey has a strong Balkan influence.

[Pecheneg]

@Gospodine don't waste your time by debating this ultra internet nationalist Turks.If you just speak your mind what do you think on a issue you are hateful person/imposer/Turk hater/anti Turk.I am telling you this guys are not accustomed to free speech.

says albanian ultranationalist. and yes, you hate us.
you and your compatriots are also racists as hell.

[Anatolian Eagle]

Do you see the part where her and I are having a conversation?

My god you people are laughable. I should in all honesty be asking you to confirm to me you're 18 and have an education because you're probably several years younger and school holidays have just started, hence why you're following me around like flies to turds on this forum.

May also interest you to know she agrees with my sentiment:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=960897&postcount=2

I'm following you??? wtf

:jump0000::bowlol:

If you at least spent 1 second to read my post carefully you'd see I'm not asking if she agrees with you in 1 single post or not, I remember she said you don't even know Bosnian and using Google Translator. That was my point

Yes I'm only 6 years old but at least I know wtf I'm saying. Who's laughable? LOL

[Pecheneg]

So you agree there are far more Balkan people in Turkey than vice versa?
i never denied albanian and bosnian presence in my country!
since the migration of balkan Turks in 19th&20th centuries (it brougt also many non-Turk albanian, bosnian etc), today there are more balkan people in Turkey than vice versa.
But i can't say the same thing for 15th-16th-17th-18th-19th centuries.

[Kanuni]

says albanian ultranationalist. and yes, you hate us.
you and your compatriots are also racists as hell.

That is just a straw man coming from you.None of Albanian posters here are racist.You just project things in your mind,you think everyone hates you.

[Lena]

Lena is Serbian. Why can't bosnian confirm you? :rolleyes:

I am Serbian, but we speak the same lang. and being born, raised and schooled here, in Balkans, unlike many other posters, I do believe that my judgement is of at least, let's call it, different value.
On the other hand, it's true that I can't confirm someone's ethnicity, but it goes for all Balkan posters, not exclusively poster you talk about.
I think it's not a big deal at all, even Serbs don't fully agree on every topic- If we all think the same, it means that no one is really thinking.

[Anatolian Eagle]

I am Serbian, but we speak the same lang. and being born, raised and schooled here, in Balkans, unlike many other posters, I do believe that my judgement is of at least, let's call it, different value.
On the other hand, it's true that I can't confirm someone's ethnicity, but it goes for all Balkan posters, not exclusively poster you talk about.
I think it's not a big deal at all, even Serbs don't fully agree on every topic- If we all think the same, it means that no one is really thinking.

We sorted it out in PMs. I told him that I trust your judgement, since I trust you most, my point was however bosnian's stance because she was Bosnian here herself. If I haven't seen bosnian's words about him I wouldn't even question it from the beginning. :coffee:

[Gospodine]

my point was however bosnian's stance because she was Bosnian here herself.

And she's an expert on all things Bosnian because...?

Like I told you, she doesn't live there, neither do I. Her guess is as qualified as anyone's which on the Internet equates to sh*t in terms of credibility on the given subject matter.

I never proclaimed myself to be some pioneering, Bosnian scholar with an intimate knowledge on all aspects of my country.

Nor do I see how that is at all relevant to TURKEY and Turk-related issues in the slightest.

So because someone's geographically closer to a given region which we happen to be discussing, they are more informed about that region's history?

Most Balkan people (especially here) still believe in the myth that they are some kind of Russo-Norse Slavs from beyond the Carpathians that settled in and replaced the indigenous Paleo-Balkan people in the 6th and 7th century, when that's just a load of nonsense.

I'm trying to make the point that outside perspectives, free from the usual dogmatic ethnic/historical tension and harbouring less indoctrinated, pre-programmed prejudice (especially in a place like the Balkans) are more insightful than native opinions on certain matters.

Bosnian even went so far as to say that Serbian/Bosnian aren't the same language, which again, is hilarious and shows a deeply-entrenched nationalist mindset.

How do you expect an unbiased view of something from people who won't agree on the most basic and thoroughly proven concepts?

[Anatolian Eagle]

And she's an expert on all things Bosnian because...?

Like I told you, she doesn't live there, neither do I. Her guess is as qualified as anyone's which on the Internet equates to sh*t in terms of credibility on the given subject matter.

I never proclaimed myself to be some pioneering, Bosnian scholar with an intimate knowledge on all aspects of my country.

Nor do I see how that is at all relevant to TURKEY and Turk-related issues in the slightest.

So because someone's geographically closer to a given region which we happen to be discussing, they are more informed about that region's history?

Most Balkan people (especially here) still believe in the myth that they are some kind of Russo-Norse Slavs from beyond the Carpathians that settled in and replaced the indigenous Paleo-Balkan people in the 6th and 7th century, when that's just a load of nonsense.

I'm trying to make the point that outside perspectives, free from the usual dogmatic ethnic/historical tension and harbouring less indoctrinated, pre-programmed prejudice (especially in a place like the Balkans) are more insightful than native opinions on certain matters.

Bosnian even went so far as to say that Serbian/Bosnian aren't the same language, which again, is hilarious and shows a deeply-entrenched nationalist mindset.

How do you expect an unbiased view of something from people who won't agree on the most basic and thoroughly proven concepts?

Allright mate, this is getting beyond me. As I said, I'll believe you since you have Lena and Vrhbosnian as referral. And sort the rest of discussion with bosnian or something... Because she isn't even aware of what's being talked about here.

[Bugarash]

Balkan turks arent turks.

I'll give one example from Yuruk people in Macedonia.

40% of the ones I saw have blue eyes or blonde hair!
just compare them with the ones who live in central Anadolia and you will get your answer.

dont even want to get into the rest details.

[Onur]

Balkan turks arent turks.

I'll give one example from Yuruk people in Macedonia.

40% of the ones I saw have blue eyes or blonde hair!
just compare them with the ones who live in central Anadolia and you will get your answer.

dont even want to get into the rest details.
Bugarash, i see you made a fast return to the forum by posting 10s of messages under an hour but you better calm down and look for the earlier posts.

These are the Yoruks from Macedonia;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42919

And these are the Yoruks from southwestern Turkey. They have never been to Balkans before. They always lived in Anatolia unlike their brothers in Balkans who migrated to Balkans in 14-15th century;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48012


See their pictures, and compare yourself.

[Bugarash]

10s?
I think they were more like 15?

Im telling you that most of the turks in the balkans are in fact assimilated slavs.

In Bulgaria half of the declared turks are gypsies and pomaks-muslim bulgarians.

[Optimus]

10s?
I think they were more like 15?

Im telling you that most of the turks in the balkans are in fact assimilated slavs.

In Bulgaria half of the declared turks are gypsies and pomaks-muslim bulgarians.

Pretty much agree.Their fake national awareness is keeped up by Turkish state propaganda and their finances because they want a space and argument to put their nose in Balkan affairs.

[Bugarash]

Pretty much agree.Their fake national awareness is keeped up by Turkish state propaganda and their finances because they want a space and argument to put their nose in Balkan affairs.

Exactly I know personally examples...about a torbesh from Debar that studied with me- he olso declared to be a turk,didint know turkish.

he stayed in a apartment in town with some other ''turkish students'' with paid meals all free and financed by a turkish NGO

but there are olso many cases of slavic muslims who are confused,they are muslim but cant mingle with their christian brothers so they turn to the side of the turks.

the gypsies are different story...

[Pecheneg]

Balkan turks arent turks.
It hurts you i know but they are Turks.


I'll give one example from Yuruk people in Macedonia.

40% of the ones I saw have blue eyes or blonde hair!
just compare them with the ones who live in central Anadolia and you will get your answer.

dont even want to get into the rest details.

Im telling you that most of the turks in the balkans are in fact assimilated slavs.
this is your dream.
tell me who assimilated them? bunch of Turkic ghosts?
Balkan Turks look different due to the mixing with locals, that's all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_of_Bulgaria

DNA research investigating the three largest population groups in Bulgaria: Bulgarians, Bulgarian Turks and Gypsies confirms with Y-chromosomal STR haplotype analysis that there are significant differences between the three ethnic groups. The study revealed a high number of population-specific haplotypes and a low degree of haplotype sharing between the three ethnic communities.
^ B.Zaharova, S. Andonovaa, A.Gilissenb, J.Cassimanb, R.Decorteb, I. Kremenskya: “Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in three major population groups in Bulgaria” Sofia-Bulgaria, Leuven-Belgium


"Trying to show Balkan Turks as Turkified slavs" is simply inferiority complex symptom. People relax themselves with such tales. :coffee:

[Azalea]

Balkan turks arent turks.

I'll give one example from Yuruk people in Macedonia.

40% of the ones I saw have blue eyes or blonde hair!
just compare them with the ones who live in central Anadolia and you will get your answer.

dont even want to get into the rest details.

There are hardly any Yoruks in Central Anatolia, einstein. Yoruks live in the Mediterranean & Eagean cost. And if you are interested, this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48012) is what they look like. But other than that, you really convinced me. I mean, nothing defines Turkishness more than eye colour. :lol:

[Azalea]

Pretty much agree.Their fake national awareness is keeped up by Turkish state propaganda and their finances because they want a space and argument to put their nose in Balkan affairs.

And how exactly is this done? Please explain. :D

[Pecheneg]

There are hardly any Yoruks in Central Anatolia, einstein.

Turkish nomads of central anatolia usually called themselves "Turkoman / Türkmen" and there were huge tribal confederations in central anatolia such as "Boz ulus" (35.226 families) and "Ulu yörük(41.001 families)
http://www.anadoluasiretleri.com/Page.php?pid=26
but ofc there are not nomads in present-day central anatolia, since Ottomans forcibly placed them in between 17th-19th centuries.

[Azalea]

Turkish nomads of central anatolia usually called themselves "Turkomans" and there were huge tribal confederations in central anatolia such as "Boz ulus" (35.226 families) and "Ulu yörük(41.001 families)
http://www.anadoluasiretleri.com/Page.php?pid=26
but ofc there are not nomads in present-day central anatolia, since Ottomans forcibly placed them.

What's your point, Pecheneg? Yoruk is nothing more than a name used for present-day nomads. And present day (semi-)nomads only live in the regions I wrote before. Because if having nomad ancestry means that you are Yoruk, then we might as well say that all Turkey is Yoruk.

[Pecheneg]

What's your point, Pecheneg? Yoruk is nothing more than a name used for present-day nomads. And present day (semi-)nomads only live in the regions I wrote before. Because if having nomad ancestry means that you are Yoruk, then we might as well say that all Turkey is Yoruk.
i misunderstood when you said this :D

There are hardly any Yoruks in Central Anatolia
there were Yörüks(nomads) in central anatolia too, that's my point.

[Onur]

there were Yörüks(nomads) in central anatolia too, that's my point.
Yes, there was a lot before but most of them has been settled long time ago as you said.

AFAIK, the last remaining ones has been settled after the population exchange in 1923 because when the christians gone, there was a lot of desolated villages in central Anatolia and the last remaining yoruks has been settled in these villages.

[Bugarash]

It hurts you i know but they are Turks.


this is your dream.
tell me who assimilated them? bunch of Turkic ghosts?
Balkan Turks look different due to the mixing with locals, that's all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_of_Bulgaria


"Trying to show Balkan Turks as Turkified slavs" is simply inferiority complex symptom. People relax themselves with such tales. :coffee:

You have many documents of ottoman officials who admit that the turks in Bulgaria are not real turks but muslim bulgarians.

Today in Bulgaria the turkish population can be devided in two branches:

half of the ones who daclare to be turks are in reality gypsies and tatars who think they are turks.
The entire tatar population in Bulgaria that was pretty strong in the past today is almost extinct-assimilated into turks.

while the other half are pomaks-bulgarian muslims.

Im not saying there hasnt been any mixing with the turkish nomad tribes but the main roots of the turkish population in Bulgaria are bulgarian.

Turks in Bulgaria have nothing to do with the ones in Turkey they even speak a turkish dialect that turks in Turkey hardly understand.

[Azalea]

You have many documents of ottoman officials who admit that the turks in Bulgaria are not real turks but muslim bulgarians.
Oh really? Why don't you show us those?


Today in Bulgaria the turkish population can be devided in two branches:

half of the ones who daclare to be turks are in reality gypsies and tatars who think they are turks.
The entire tatar population in Bulgaria that was pretty strong in the past today is almost extinct-assimilated into turks.

Tatars are a Turkic people, it's no wonder that they assimilate easy into the mainstream Turkish population. However, you can not assimilate into something that doesn't exist. According to you, there are no Turks, yet, Gypsies, Tatars and 'muslim Bulgarians' manage to assimilate into Turks. That's quite a wonder.

Also, Bulgarian Tatars have settled in Turkey mostly.


while the other half are pomaks-bulgarian muslims.

Pomaks do not speak Turkish and the majority doesn't identify as Turk. They have their own ethnicity, language and culture.


Im not saying there hasnt been any mixing with the turkish nomad tribes but the main roots of the turkish population in Bulgaria are bulgarian.

Bulgarian? Please, don't let me laugh. The first Bulgars were a Turkic people who got assimilated into the Slavic population in the Balkans. So a Bulgarian saying that Turks in Bulgaria are not Turks but Bulgarians, is paradox and outragious.


Turks in Bulgaria have nothing to do with the ones in Turkey they even speak a turkish dialect that turks in Turkey hardly understand.

Someone should kick that arrogance out of you really. Seriously.. the fuck are you talking about? Bulgarians Turks, as other Turks in the Balkans, speak just Turkish with a local accent. It's very easy to understand for us simply because it's the same language. But ofcourse, you as someone who doesn't speak or understand Turkish, knows better. Idiot.

[Azalea]

i misunderstood when you said this :D

there were Yörüks(nomads) in central anatolia too, that's my point.

There were nomads everywhere in Turkey? Not only in Central Turkey, but also in Northern, Eastern, Western, Southern. Yet, they don't exist anymore simply because they don't have a nomadic lifestyle - which is what Yoruk means, nomad.. So I really don't understand what your point is.

[Bugarash]

Pomaks do not speak Turkish and the majority doesn't identify as Turk. They have their own ethnicity, language and culture.


Yes

they speak bulgarian language,most have a bulgarian ethnicity and maintain bulgarian culture but some of them cant find themseves or may I say cant adopt in the sea of their christian bulgarian brothers plus if we add the turkish propaganda so you have a result where some of them declare to be turks even without knowing a word in turkish.

same thing with the torbesh in Macedonia even at a much higher rate...

[Bugarash]

Bulgarian? Please, don't let me laugh. The first Bulgars were a Turkic people who got assimilated into the Slavic population in the Balkans. So a Bulgarian saying that Turks in Bulgaria are not Turks but Bulgarians, is paradox and outragious.


TURKIC!
do you know the difference between turkic and todays turks?

the turkic Bulgars were assimilated into the slavs-The end

then the occuping seljuk ottoman turks came and during the time many of the natives were converted to islam-mostly by force and some under their own will and with that adopted turkish ethnicity.

90% of the turks in Bulgaria-if we put aside the gypsies and the ones who are mixed with tatars look the same as the christian bulgarians.

the turks from Anadolia are another world compared to them.

[Optimus]

And how exactly is this done? Please explain. :D

Bugarash mentioned a point.Despite that your state is officially secular they still use Islam as a tool to gain support among Muslim Slavs in Balkans.Now don't say me all of them are Turks since you from Turkey are barely Turkic yourself.:lol:

[rashka]

I will just give a little input here concerning Turks of Serbia. According to my relatives who had Turkish neighbors, these Turks were not assimilated and were in fact Turks who lived amongst Serbs yet had their own communities going but they were very few. However that is not to say that they didn't get assimilated in some Bosnians.

[Bugarash]

Example from Novi Pazar-Serbia

the bosniaks are olso at some level confused about their nationality
again,islam is a tool that is used by the turkish state to influence the slavic muslims

http://www.trt.net.tr/medya/resim/2010/07/12/66c53cab-ae2f-40ae-83c5-95b4d107e9c4-444x333.jpg

http://www.vesti-online.com/data/images/2010-07-12/77724_slika297236_ig.jpg

http://www.vesti-online.com/data/images/2010-07-12/77774_slika297257_ig.jpg[/IMG]

http://b92s.net/pics/gallery/2010/07/72533544c3c21b3889bf513010858.jpg

http://www.sandzaknews.com/slike/kolumna-27.jpg

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

TURKIC!
do you know the difference between turkic and todays turks?


not difference but part-whole correlation ,dimwits
now focus!!

Turks are a part of main Turkic people

You need to read this and memorise because we all fed up with that repeatative and boring idiocy ...




Turkic peoples


Turkic peoples, any of various peoples whose members speak languages belonging to the Turkic subfamily of the Altaic family of languages. They are historically and linguistically connected with the T’u-chüeh, the name given by the Chinese to the nomadic people who in the 6th century ad founded an empire stretching from Mongolia and the northern frontier of China to the Black Sea. With some exceptions, notably in the European part of Turkey and in the Volga region, the Turkic peoples are confined to Asia. Their most important cultural link, aside from history and language, is that with Islam, for, with the exception of the Sakha (Yakut) of eastern Siberia and the Chuvash of the Volga region of Russia, they are all Muslim.

The Turkic peoples may be divided into two main groups: the western and the eastern. The western group includes the Turkic peoples of southeastern Europe and those of southwestern Asia inhabiting Anatolia (Asian Turkey) and northwestern Iran. The eastern group comprises the Turkic peoples of Central Asia, Kazakhstan, and the Uighur Autonomous Region of Xinjiang in China. Turkic peoples display a great variety of ethnic types.

Little is known about the origins of the Turkic peoples, and much of their history even up to the time of the Mongol conquests in the 10th–13th centuries is shrouded in obscurity. Chinese documents of the 6th century ad refer to the empire of the T’u-chüeh as consisting of two parts, the northern and western Turks. This empire submitted to the nominal suzerainty of the Chinese T’ang dynasty in the 7th century, but the northern Turks regained their independence in 682 and retained it until 744. The Orhon inscriptions, the oldest known Turkic records (8th century), refer to this empire and particularly to the confederation of Turkic tribes known as the Oğuz; to the Uighur, who lived along the Selenga River (in present-day Mongolia); and to the Kyrgyz, who lived along the Yenisey River (in north-central Russia). When able to escape the domination of the T’ang dynasty, these northern Turkic groups fought each other for control of Mongolia from the 8th to the 11th century, when the Oğuz migrated westward into Iran and Afghanistan. In Iran the family of Oğuz tribes known as Seljuqs created an empire that by the late 11th century stretched from the Amu Darya south to the Persian Gulf and from the Indus River west to the Mediterranean Sea. In 1071 the Seljuq sultan Alp-Arslan defeated the Byzantine Empire at the Battle of Manzikert and thereby opened the way for several million Oğuz tribesmen to settle in Anatolia. These Turks came to form the bulk of the population there, and one Oğuz tribal chief, Osman, founded the Ottoman dynasty (early 14th century) that would subsequently extend Turkish power throughout the eastern Mediterranean. The Oğuz are the primary ancestors of the Turks of present-day Turkey.

Farther east, in Central Asia, the Uighur were driven out of Mongolia and settled in the 9th century in what is now the Xinjiang region of northwestern China. Some Uighur moved westward into what is now Uzbekistan, where they forsook nomadic pastoralism for a sedentary lifestyle. These people became known as Uzbek, named for a ruler of a local Mongol dynasty of that name.

The Mongol conquests, which began in the early 13th century, caused a general series of movements of the Turkic peoples that continued for several centuries. The Mongols eventually brought under their domination almost all the areas held or inhabited by Turkic peoples. The Kipchak, a Turkic people who had moved from the Irtysh River southwest across Kazakhstan to establish themselves in what is now southwestern Russia, were destroyed by the expanding Mongols in 1239, and the last remnants of the declining Seljuq empire in Iran were likewise subjugated. But when the Mongol empire was divided following Genghis Khan’s death (1227), a process of Islamization and Turkification ensued that resulted in the virtual absorption by the Turks of those Mongols outside Mongolian territory. The influence of the Mongol rulers diminished, and real power in Central Asia passed to their Turkic provincial governors, one of whom, Timur, was able to extend his own authority over most of southwestern Asia and parts of South Asia in the late 14th century. In the 15th century, Russian expansion south toward the Caspian Sea drove the Turkic inhabitants there eastward into what is now Kazakhstan, where they are known as Kazakh.

Because of these processes of migration, conquest, intermarriage, and assimilation, many of the Turkic peoples that now inhabit Central and Southwest Asia are of mixed origins, often stemming from fragments of many different tribes, though they speak closely related languages. Apart from the Turks of Turkey, none of the Turkic peoples can be said to have had any continuous national or political existence until the formation, after the Russian Revolution of 1917, of the various Soviet republics and, after 1955, of the Xinjiang region in China. The achievement of independence by Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Turkmenistan in 1991 was the most important political development among the Turkic peoples since the Russian Revolution of 1917.

The most numerous of the Turkic peoples, after the Turks of Turkey, is the Uzbek of Uzbekistan and Afghanistan. Their name seems to have originated from Öz Beg, the greatest khan of the Golden Horde, who embraced Islam; the name came to be applied to the Muslim ruling class of the Golden Horde.

Another numerous group is the Kazakh, who are thought to have been formed from the Kipchak tribes that constituted part of the Golden Horde. Most of them live in Kazakhstan; there are also a large number of Chinese Kazakh in Xinjiang and neighbouring Gansu and Qinghai provinces of China.

The Kyrgyz, whose origin is obscure, chiefly inhabit Kyrgyzstan. There is a small minority of Kyrgyz in Afghanistan and western China.

The Turkmen were until 1924 a nomadic tribal people with no political unity. Most of them live in Turkmenistan; there are also large groups in Iran and Afghanistan and others in Iraq, Syria, and Turkey.

The Azerbaijani, who inhabit Azerbaijan and northwestern Iran, are one people; they were divided between the Russian and Persian empires in 1828 by the Treaty of Turkmanchay.

The Karakalpak, who are closely allied to the Kazakh, inhabit Karakalpakstan, which is a portion of Uzbekistan. The Tatars consist of two groups, those living in Tatarstan, a republic in Russia, and those inhabiting the Crimean Peninsula; the latter were deported from their homes en masse in 1944 and forcibly resettled in Uzbekistan, but since 1989 they have been returning to Crimea. The Tatars in Tatarstan are thought to be descended from indigenous Turkic tribes of the Kipchak group.

The Bashkir are widely dispersed in the eastern part of European Russia, where they have their own republic, and beyond the Ural Mountains. Although the Bashkir language is purely Turkic, their culture is mixed

The Karachay and Balkar of the Russian Caucasus Mountains are of uncertain origin. In the course of many centuries, they have become mixed with the Ossetes (Ossetians), from whom they are anthropologically indistinguishable. They were deported during World War II to areas in Central Asia but have since been allowed to return.

The Sakha of Siberia are classified as a Turkic people because of their language, but little is known of their origin. They are believed to have emigrated northward from the region of Lake Baikal; their culture is in some respects identifiable with that of adjoining Siberian peoples.

The Chuvash are one of the largest non-Slav communities inhabiting the Volga region of southwestern Russia. They are Russian Orthodox Christians, and their language suggests that they are of Turkic origin.

The Uighur form the predominant population of the Xinjiang region of western China; a small number live in the Central Asian republics as well. See also Azerbaijani, Bashkir, Chuvash, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Tatar, Turkmen, Uighur, Uzbek, and Sakha.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/609972/Turkic-peoples/609972yblinks/Year-in-Review-Links


you can't exclude and divide western turkic tribes from eastern ones....
we are branches of same anchient tree ..understand ignoramus?

and don't ever try to teach our culture to us again!!

[Pecheneg]

TURKIC!
do you know the difference between turkic and todays turks?

Yea i know, "Turkic" and "Turkish" are both anglo-saxon terms and doesn't exist in Turkic languages.

Turkic is meta-ethnicity and Turkish is sub-ethnicity of Turkic.


Now don't say me all of them are Turks since you from Turkey are barely Turkic yourself.:lol:
Turks are 100% Turkic, being Turkic have nothing to do with mongoloid admix. Most western Turkic nations like Karachay-Balkar-Azeri-Crimean Tatar-Kumyk-Qashqai etc are pred. caucasoids just like Turks.

btw indo-european languages spread from steppes by indo-european nomads, while most present-day indo-european speakers have nothing to with original indo-europeans from eurasian steppes.

[Pecheneg]

TURKIC!
do you know the difference between turkic and todays turks?

the turkic Bulgars were assimilated into the slavs-The end

then the occuping seljuk ottoman turks came and during the time many of the natives were converted to islam-mostly by force and some under their own will and with that adopted turkish ethnicity.

90% of the turks in Bulgaria-if we put aside the gypsies and the ones who are mixed with tatars look the same as the christian bulgarians.

the turks from Anadolia are another world compared to them.

enough of your bullshit.
Bulgarian Turks are 100% Turks, they are also genetically different than Bulgarians as i mentioned in my previous posts.
They were placed by Ottomans and they lived there for +500 years.
btw, you have nothing to do with Turkic Bulgars, except the Turkic name "Bulgar". No language, no religion, no cultural relationship.

[Optimus]

Turks are 100% Turkic, being Turkic have nothing to do with mongoloid admix. Most western Turkic nations like Karachay-Balkar-Azeri-Crimean Tatar-Kumyk-Qashqai etc are pred. caucasoids just like Turks.

btw indo-european languages spread from steppes by indo-european nomads, while most present-day indo-european speakers have nothing to with original indo-europeans from eurasian steppes.

Caucasoid is a wide term.Arabs and Pashtuns are Caucasoid too but they are not similar to Europeans.;)

And i don't see your point about IE people.Everyone aknowledges that PIE have left minimal ancestry in some people but others have a lot of paternal ancestry from them like Poles,Ukrainians,Russians,Pashtuns,North Indians.

[Pecheneg]

@siberiancoldbreeze
The main reason of this fuss is inferiority complex and envy.
Guess why they are obsessed with Turks, while we don't give a damn.
They feel relaxed when they think balkan Turks are Turkified natives.
so be it, leave them alone. :thumb001:

[Bugarash]

enough of your bullshit.
Bulgarian Turks are 100% Turks, they are also genetically different than Bulgarians as i mentioned in my previous posts.
They were placed by Ottomans and they lived there for +500 years.

Turks in turkey are everything but not turkic
they are a mix of the many anadolian people that lived theire before their arrival as well a mixture of assimilated slavs and greeks.

Turks in Bulgaria are distinct to the turks in Turkey...it is enough to go some km south or east of Ankara and find youreself in Pakistan.
but you dont even have to go that far,the difference starts even from western Anadolia.

Izmir is alright because there are many slavic settlers from the balkans.

Today the turkish elite is made out of ''turks'' with roots of the balkans...their control Turkey especialy her military top officials.

The settlers from the balkans are the cream of turkish society.
The same way most of the turkish sultans and grand viziers were greeks,bulgarians,serbs,albanians,bosniaks...
We can point out even Kemal Mustafa's background in this context...


btw, you have nothing to do with Turkic Bulgars, except the Turkic name "Bulgar". No language, no religion, no cultural relationship.

You should see how do Chuvash and Gagauz costumes looks like-same as todays bulgarian!

Volga tatars,Chuvash,Gagauz=Bulgarian subgroups

[Anatolian Eagle]

You should see how do Chuvash and Gagauz costumes looks like-same as todays bulgarian!

Volga tatars,Chuvash,Gagauz=Bulgarian subgroups

Gagauzs are Oghuz Turks and they have nothing to with Bulgarians.

Chuvashes are said to be descendants of Volga Bulgars who didn't migrate down to Balkans and stayed in the region instead. Unlike modern-day Bulgarians whom adopted Slavic language, they speak Chuvash language which is close to old Bulgar language as Chuvash language belongs to the same language family with old Bulgar langauge: Oghur-Turkic. Volga Tatars are probably closest Turkic group to the Chuvashes but their language is Tatar and it doesn't belong to Oghur subgroup.

[Pecheneg]

It's like saying Germans are not Germanic, don't be hilarious, Turks are %100 Turkic, it has nothing to do with mongoloid genes, otherwise 90% of the Turkic nations are not Turkic either.
Btw, Bulgarians are not Slavs nor Turkic, but natives who adopted slavic language thats all. There ls no single connection between Turkic peoples (Tatars, Chuvash, Gagauz etc) and bulgarians. This is a dream of wannabe Turkic.
and there was no Turkish sultan with bosniak,greek,serb,bulgarian etc origin, because they were direct descendants of Osman Ghazi, founder of the Ottoman empire, so don't be fool. There were ofc grandviziers of balkan origin, bcs it was multicultural empire, there were also armenian pashas. 
Balkan diaspora(albanians, bosniaks etc) in Turkey are not cream society or something, you are probably talking about Balkan Turks! 
You are very pathetic nationalist, who believe bulgarians are relatives of Volga Tatars. What a joke.
Btw how much admix do you have from true IE speakers from eurasian steppes?
You have no connection with Turkic peoples, you are not even slavs, deal with it.

[Bugarash]

So if you are turkic why dont you look like your central asian brothers?

While we do look like Chuvash,Gagauz and Volga tatars-not (the mongol admixture ones)

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

they are not Oguz..that's the reason..
you are not following aren't u?

[Onur]

So if you are turkic why dont you look like your central asian brothers?

While we do look like Chuvash,Gagauz and Volga tatars-not (the mongol admixture ones)
Bugarash, at least we know who we are and what was our history.

Can you show me a single Bulgarian today, who exactly knows his past? Can you tell me who you are? Your original language was not Slavic, then what it was? Turkish, Iranian, Afghan Pashtun? Who were your ancestors? Shallow unknown peoples like illyrians, thracians or they were some peasants under Roman slavery? Cuman, Pechenek warriors? Dacian sheep farmers? Vlachs? Gagauz?

Who were they, a bunch of intermingled peasants without a traceable history?

[Bugarash]

Bugarash, at least we know who we are and what was our history.

Can you show me a single Bulgarian today, who exactly knows his past? Can you tell me who you are? Your original language was not Slavic, then what it was? Turkish, Iranian, Afghan Pashtun? Who were your ancestors? Shallow unknown peoples like illyrians, thracians or they were some peasants under Roman slavery? Cuman, Pechenek warriors? Dacian sheep farmers? Vlachs? Gagauz?

Who were they, a bunch of intermingled peasants without a traceable history?

Only in your head bulgarians have a problem with who they are ottomanus!
but I do know that everyone around Bulgaria have problems with who they themlselves are,especially the ''macedonians''...

Todays Bulgarians are the children of bulgars,slavs and the ancient people of the balkans,having problems understanding that?

the proto-bulgars were a turkic-iranic tribe with a turkic language
while modern bulgarian language is slavic and not only that but the bulgarian language is the base of all other slavic languages.

the oldest slavic litterecy schools were bulgarian,the cyrilic script was invented by bulgarians,the first students of ciril and methody were bulgarians...

[Bugarash]

they are not Oguz..that's the reason..
you are not following aren't u?

Oguz moguz

look at the early ottoman sultans-pure mongols

today you dont look like mongols
and why is that?

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

You are just trolling..where is your source?
pls post here we want to see your pure Mongoloid Ottomans:coffee:

[Bugarash]

Sultans and early ottomans

http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/Pictures1/im39.jpg

http://www.altarmodeling.com/images/kanuni_sultan_suleyman8.jpg

http://www.muslimheritage.com/uploads/Painting_atelier_of_OttomanSultan.JPG

http://www.altarmodeling.com/images/kanuni_sultan_suleyman7.jpg

[Bugarash]

siege of Belgrade

http://www.studiolum.com/wang/hu/nandorfehervar/12.jpg

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

miniatures...hahahahaaa
so these are your proofs?

now wake up and smell the coffee..

Even Mongols are not pure Mongoloid ..Central Asia is not China..
IT'S EURASIA .

HOW CAN OTTOMANS,COMING FROM SOUTH WESTERN PART OF CENTRAL ASIA, BE MORE MONGOLOID THEN MONGOLS THEMSELVES?
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/932/tumblrm1678dl1bn1qlsr3b.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/137/tumblrm1678dl1bn1qlsr3b.jpg/)

Rare Blond Mongol Girl

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/7481/younguyghurboy.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/younguyghurboy.jpg/)
Uygur boy from East Turkistan




Mongolian themselves are genetically 81-95% Mongoloid, east Mongolians being almost 100% Mongoloid and West Mongolians being a bit below 80% Mongoloid. It's interesting to know that Mongolian also carry 6% Caucasian Y-DNA and most of them are R1a