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Onur
06-17-2012, 01:30 PM
Here is an interesting article about the origin of Croats from a Croatian historian Emil Hersak;

AVARS, BULGARS AND CROATS

a) The cornerstone of Croatian history is the statement, made by Constantine Porphyrogenitus in the 10th century, that the Croats, originating from the "White Croats" in the North, arrived in Dalmatia in the reign of emperor Heraclius. On the emperor's order they supposedly took up arms, expelled the Avars from the land, and settled in it themselves (De administrando imperio XXXI). It was, of course, during the reign of Heraclius (610-641) that the Avars were defeated at Constantinople, that the above-mentioned Avar-Bulgar conflict broke out in Pannonia, and that Kubrat established Great Bulgaria in the North Pontic Area. Hence, suggestions have existed for a long time that there might have been cause and effect factors relating these events to the Croat migration, and that there even might be an ethnogenetical link between the Avars, Bulgars and Croats.

b) A major point in the theories has been a migration legend that is recorded in the corpus of Porphyrogenitus' work. As the legend goes: a tribe of the White Croats, led by five brothers - KLOUKAS, LOBELOS, KOSENTZES, MOUHLO and HROBATOS, and two sisters named TOUGA and BOUGA (b/v transliteration can be changed in the Byzantine Greek text) come to Dalmatia, where they found the Avars holding the land. After a time of warring they were able to defeat the Avars and subjugated them, but some of the descendants of the Avars survived in Croatia, and - as the text says explicitly - it can be seen that they are Avars (the idea is that the descendants of the Avars preserved some type of Mongoloid appearance, distinct from the Croat population) (De administrando imperio XXX).

c) Even today this legend has been generally taken as authentic, i.e. as an authentic legend reflecting more complex history, not exact history itself. For one thing it was recorded quite early (i.e. in the 10th century), at a time when the Medieval Croatian Kingdom was still relatively powerful, and without doubt a country about which the Byzantines wanted to gather various strategic details (the report of as much as 100.000 foot soldiers and 60.000 horsemen in the DAI is, of course, exaggerated to stress the importance). Several authors have assumed that the legend was first conveyed to the Byzantines by some member of the Croat nobility, who knew it from oral tradition. This is a real possibility, for a time-span of 300 years, although a bit stretched, is not too much for some oral tradition, especially in a society in which laws and other social traditions are still being transmitted by word of mouth (as was the case in Medieval Croatia), and especially in the nobility, which as a rule preserves memories of its origins much longer than the general population. Another indicative detail concerns one of the names of the brothers "Kosentzes" is in fact nothing other then the title "kosez", written with an Old Slavic nasal /e/. Quite genuine, since the "kosezi" truly were a noble class, well distributed in the Slovenian lands and in parts of northern Croatia, and especially in a region of Old Carantania that was known in the 11-12th century as Pagus Chrouuat. Kosentzes and Hrobat (whose name is an obvious eponym of the Croats) are the two most important brothers in the legend.

d) If the two sisters mentioned in the legend are excluded - as has for often been done! - The story fundamentally tells of FIVE brothers from a foreign land (the location of "White Croatia", despite the details, is still disputed) coming and defeating the Avars, in the first part of the 7th century. Hence, both recently, and in the past, there have been serious attempts to link the story with that of the Bulgar khan Kubrat and his FIVE SONS! Furthermore, it has been noted that Kubrat's name appears in Greek, Latin, Arabic and Slavic sources in several variations: Koubratos, Kobratos, Krobatos, Kouber (his son?), Crobatus, Chudbadr, Chubraat, Quetrades, Kour't?. Equating the form Krobatos, with the Hrobatos in the Croat tradition, the English historian J. Bury was once quick in concluding: "This Croatian legend has a strong family resemblance to the Bulgarian legend of Krobat (or Kubrat) and his five sons, and I therefore think that we should hardly hesitate to take Krobat and Hrobat as the same prehistoric hero of the Hunnic people..." (unfortunately my translation back to English of a Croatian translation of Bury's words - for the original see: J. Bury. A History of the later Roman empire from Arcadius to Irene (395-800). vol II London, 1889, 275-275). In his following sentences, Bury attempted also to derive the Croatian title "ban" (governor, viceroy) from Bayan, the name of the Avar khan who had led his people to Pannonia, or even from Batbayan, the eldest son of Kubrat. This type of concluding quickly led to the birth of the "Turkic" theory of Croatian origins.

e) However the two sisters, as I said, were excluded from most interpretation. To this day it seems that almost nobody takes them seriously, yet they might throw some light on another detail that was noticed at the turn of the 19-20th century that was to influence future research. Namely, at this time A.I. Pogodin indicated the relevance of that two stone plates from the former Greek colony Tanais at the mouth of the Don, dated from the 2nd-3rd centuries, on which were the names Khoroathos and Khorouathos, along with the comment that a Khoroathos or Khorouathos had been an arkhontos in Tanais during the reign of Julius Sauromatus (175-211). If the name was derived from an ethnonym, as seemed very plausible, and since a Turkic presence at the mouth of the Don in the 2nd-3rd was not deemed possible, the most likely conclusion was that the name must be Iranian, i.e. Sarmatian (or Alanic). However, there were also some attempts at finding a Caucasian etymology, and one author, in the same context, even tried to derive the name of the other brother "Kosentzes", or "Kosez", from the "Kasogs" appearing in the Russian Primary Chronicle and in the Poem of Prince Igor. But that the Croatian ethnonym itself could have been indigenous to the Don-Azov area was further strengthened by a high concentration of ethnonyms with an -at suffix in this area. Along with various Iranian and other speculations as to what it meant, Trubachev finally suggested that it might be derived from *xarva(n)t, meaning in Iranian something like "those that have women". Such an interpretation was supported by the indications of a higher status of women among the (Iranian) Sarmatians, and maybe of some form of matrilineal descent, if not actual "matriarchy". Even the Greek myth of the Amazons, and their supposed geographic location by the Black Sea was pertinent in this regard. Thus, it would seem that the sisters in the Croat ethnogenetic legend may perhaps not be only a casual variation.

f) Interestingly, Paul the Deacon, in this History of the Langobards (that I have already mentioned in connection with the Bulgars in Molise), wrote that the Langobards, on the way to Pannonia, had to fight a group of Amazons at a river crossing and right after that they were confronted by a group of Bulgars! (Historia Langobardorum, I: 16-17). Would it be too much to see in this half-mythical/half-historical reference a faint indication of a Croat, Proto-Croat or Iranian groups that might have been in some sort of close relationship with a tribe of Bulgars? Most probably it would, at least until we have more information. But for me it is intriguing to think about it.

g) I must add that besides the Turkic and Iranian theories on the origins of the Proto-Croats, there has also been a Gothic theory, an indigenous "Illyrian" theory and obviously a Slavic, or more precisely "purely Slavic" theory. Each of these interpretations corresponded to a certain time, and to the needs of the time. Thus the Gothic theory appeared in the 12-13th century in the "Historia Salonitana" of Thomas the Archdeacon and in Chronicle of the Priest of Dioclea (Pop Dukljanin), who both equated Croats with Goths. Personally, although not excluding the possibility of a Germanic trace in the Croat ethnogenesis, I believe that the Gothic theory was a new dynastic myth, that replaced the original (i.e. authentic) legend of the five brothers and two sisters, precisely at a time when the Croatian kings were trying to reaffirm their political right to the land they were ruling. In the late 11th century, after the schism in Christianity, Croatia was moving away from former ties with Byzantium, in which dynastic affirmation could be based on the story of Heraclius allowing the Croats to settle in Dalmatia as "foederati" of the Empire. Therefore it was more opportune to invent a Gothic genealogy, just as the Romans had once invented a Trojan genealogy, and the Britons had in their turn invented a Roman genealogy (cf. Geoffrey of Monmouth's "History of the British Kings"). But why pick Goths? Croatia had in fact once been part of Theodorik's Ostrogoth Kingdom, but the reason is most likely not this. Rather, of all the "barbarians" Theodorik's Goths had somehow left the best imagine of themselves in the medieval vision, to the point of being credited with doing God's work in eliminating the "sinful" Roman Empire. In this light, as Herwig Wolfram noted, even at the Council of Basil (1431-1449) the Austrians and Swedes were still arguing about which of them were the true descendants of the Goths (H. Wolfram, The History of the Goths. University of California Press, 1988. p. 2). It was only during the Renaissance that "Gothic" became a distasteful term, maybe because it had been used as positive in the era the Renaissance people were turning away from. Then typically, Croatian "literati" followed the trend and soon invented an illustrious Illyrian origin for the Croats, going back to the Roman days. This type of Illyrianism, soon expanded to include other Slavic-speaking peoples as well, and by the early 19th century it began to merge fully with Pan-Slavism, and eventually with "Yugoslavism" (which is only a subvariation of Pan-Slavism, with certain peculiar traits of its own).

h) Now, while it is truly impossible (and silly) to try to deny the dominant role of Slavs in Croatian ethnogensis, it was another problem when Pan-Slavist ideology, taken to the extreme, tried a priori to refute any possibility of non-Slavic elements being involved in the ethnogenesis of either the Croats, or any other Slavic-speaking people (cf. the fate of the Norman theory in Russia, that finally resulted in willful destruction of Scandinavian archaeology material in that country). In our case, the problem was compounded by Yugoslav state ideology, where Gothic, Turkic, Iranian theories were officially regarded not only as necessarily false, but also as subversive. True, the attempts to revive Gothicism were highly problematic (to say the least), since they were in some cases inspired by the racist views of Nordic and/or Germanic superiority that were being strongly in the first part of the 20th century. Gothicism taken literally, not in the way I tried to describe it in the previous paragraph, ALMOST became the official doctrine in Croatia during the wartime pro-Nazi regime. It was therefore logical that after W.W.II Gothicism was banned in the new Communist Yugoslavia, to the point of negating that any Germanic groups might have left some traces in the Croatian ethnogenesis. Likewise, there was no discussion on the Turkic and Iranian theories, except to say how impossible and ridiculous they were. Thus, it came rather as shock, when about ten years ago the state media mentioned that some historians were claiming that "Croats were not Slavs". In fact, the late Nada Klai? (who was at the end of her career and had already earned herself the image of an iconoclast) had favorably commented the works of O. Kronsteiner ("Gab es unter den Alpenslawen eine kroatische etnische Gruppe", etc.), and W. Pohl ("Das Avarenreich und die kroatischen Ethnogenesen"), published some time earlier in the Weiner slavistisches Jahrbuch (vol 24 B, 1978). Kronsteiner and Pohl were claiming that the first Croats (Proto-Croats) were an Avaric warrior class or category among the Alpine Slavs. Besides the title "ban" that I already noted, other significant Mediaeval titles were added to this thesis: "cacatius" (kagan) used as a title among the Carantanian princes, the above mentioned "kosez" - apparently from Turkic gaziz/chaziz/haziz, and even župan, first noted in the sources in 777 in the Latinised form "jopan", relating to the Carantania. Obviously, since the Slovenes had with much justification claimed the historical legacy of the Mediaeval Carantanian state this Avaric-Croat-Carantanian reinterpretation hit their ethnovision as well. There had, of course, been earlier attempts to link the beginning of Slovene political organisation with a Croat group (e.g. by Ljudmil Hauptmann before W.W.II), but in the ideology of the Yugoslav state such suggestions were avoided, since they were seen as overt expressions of Croatian nationalism.

i) As for the Iranian theory, it was confined for some time only to "political emigrants" living abroad. S. Saka?, who had upheld it in 1937, presented a new elaboration in an émigré journal in 1945. Only in the late 1980s did it become better known in Croatia. I am somewhat pleased to say that the journal "Migration Themes" of which I am the editor-in-chief published a short paper by Ivo Goldstein, Nada Klai?'s successor as the head of the Dept. of Mediaeval History at the University of Zagreb, in which he described the Iranian theory as "the least unlikely" (see: "O etnogenezi Hrvata u ranom srednjem vijeku", Migracijske teme, 1989, br. 2-3, pp. 221-227). Today, however, the Iranian theory is well on its way to becoming almost official in Croatia. It is mentioned explicitly in textbooks, and is nicely depicted in the secondary school historical atlas (see: Hrvatski povijesni zemljovidi. Zagreb, Školska knjiga, 1993. p. 7). Unfortunately, the extreme Iranism that was developed among our émigrés abroad is also very present, so that the search for roots often ends up in Afghanistan or Iran proper, at any rate in Achaemenian antiquity, i.e. in the 6-5th centuries BCE, where there was once a region called in the Avestan texts Xarauvati, and in Greek - Arakhosia. This seems to be good example of how in a relatively small modern nation, or more precisely in a nation who feels itself to be small, an illustrious ancestry is once again being invented, to fill the need of a genuine identity that has been repressed by decades of ideological violence.

h) I personally do believe that an Iranian component in Proto-Croat ethnogenesis is likely (not to say "least unlikely"), but here one cannot go much further than Tanais and the Don, and likewise such Iranism is nothing exceptional in the Slavic-speaking world. As to the Turkic theory, which even Trubachev later adopted, I can't rule it our either, yet I am pretty certain that some of the words or titles suggested as Avaric or Turkic, such as župan (which has cognates in Polish and Baltic), most probably have a different origin. If people on this list will be interested I will attempt to gather a list of possible Avar, Bulgar or Old Turkic loans in Croatian but this might take some time. On the other hand, the reasons why the Turkic theory was not received with hardly as much "public favour" in Croatia, as the Iranian interpretation was, probably lies also in deep-rooted and very unfortunate prejudices, that can be traced to Mediaeval visions of Gog and Magog, Tatars and Tartarus, and to memories preserved in the chronicles and epic poems of battles with the Huns, Avars, Magyars, Tatars and Ottoman Turks. Croatia was often at the endpoint of all these invasions, and the historical coat-of-arms of my country, a red and white checkerboard shield (now in the middle of our national flag), symbolizes in heraldry a battlefield (just as it does in the game of chess). Interestingly enough, an even older symbol that can also be seen on our coat-of-arms (in the present version) is a moon and star on a blue night sky. However, this is probably irrelevant.

by Emil Heršak
Institute for Migration and Ethnic Studies,
22.09.1996
Zagreb, Croatia.

emil.hersak@zg.hinet.hr

http://groznijat.tripod.com/fadlan/e_hersak.html

Onur
06-17-2012, 01:37 PM
This is the oldest chronicle about the Croats written by the Byzantine Emperor himself, Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (10th century AD) named "De Administrando Imperio";


Croats comes to Dalmatia by using the path from eastern Bavarian lands. Avars rules in Dalmatia at that time but Croats defeats them and subjugates some of them;
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/3391/clipboard01km.jpg


Croats defeats Franks and gains autonomy in Dalmatia. Some of them asks to be baptized from Rome;
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/4094/clipboard02r.jpg

This PDF has both English translation and the original Greek text;
http://depositfiles.com/files/42uuu8xz3

Insuperable
06-18-2012, 10:24 PM
Heheheh
Since the genetics I have posted can not link Turks and Hungarians I do not see what is the reason of inviting me here or opening this thread except for trolling
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=964238#post964238
Because of stuff like this I do not know what are you still doing here - a Turk trying to deeuropeanize everyone
You have posted numerous historical sources which point to Hungarian link with Turks which you took from your ass or historians took them from their ass because genetics can not lie. The same thing you are doing now.

Here is an autosomal data
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1093/genmap1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/812/genmap1.jpg/)

Here are our haplogroups
I1 8%
I2a+I2a* 42%
I2b 1%
R1a 30%
R1b 8%
G 1%
J2 3.5%
E 6%

Since the text above mention Dalmatia constantly I2a in Dalmatia reaches up to 60-70%. The rest are mainly R1a, R1b, G...
Avars were presumebly mostly J1 ( 60% ) which is almost non existent.

Onur
06-18-2012, 10:39 PM
You do the same thing again. This thread is about the 10th century Croats but you are posting some pictures of blond Dalmatians of 2012 and accusing me with "deeuropeiaaninaiaiization", whatever that means, is this even a word?

Avars was J1 semitic like Arabs?!!! Forget it, you are not worth discussing about anything like most of the Balkanoid species here.

Keep posting more blonds, best thing you can do

Archduke
06-18-2012, 10:46 PM
Onur, what is this crap? You write shit about Bulgarians, and now you start writing shit about Croats.

Insuperable
06-18-2012, 10:47 PM
You do the same thing again. This thread is about the 10th century Croats but you are posting some pictures of blond Dalmatians of 2012 and accusing me with "deeuropeiaaninaiaiization", whatever that means, is this even a word?

Avars was J1 semitic like Arabs?!!! Forget it, you are not worth discussing about anything like most of the Balkanoid species here.

Keep posting more blonds, best thing you can do

But I have posted recognizable people who are currently on TV playing football not a cherry picked blond people from the street and I have posted all Dalmatians playing. But forget it you have autosomal and haplogroup data above.

Regarding Avars and J1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus

And what does it mean the thread is about 10th century Croats? Haplogroups are haplogroups and autosomal data is autosomal data. Are you that fucking stupid?

Insuperable
06-18-2012, 10:49 PM
Onur, what is this crap? You write shit about Bulgarians, and now you start writing shit about Croats.

Yes why is he tolerated?

Kanuni
06-18-2012, 10:51 PM
History has taken a different direction.

Now linguistics,history and genetics are combined to make sense of the past.What Onur writes is bullshit and revolves on his own identity crisis.

Onur
06-18-2012, 11:00 PM
Regarding Avars and J1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus
You are an idiot. This is the Avars of today`s Caucasus, they have no relation with the Turkic Avars of early medieval era.


I just posted an article written by Emil Heršak here, without any comment. If you have problems with it, go to the Zagreb university and yell to him, not to me or come to Istanbul to piss on the walls of Hagia Sophia because Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus wrote such things for your people in 10th century.

Insuperable
06-18-2012, 11:22 PM
You are an idiot. This is the Avars of today`s Caucasus, they have no relation with the Turkic Avars of early medieval era.

My mistake and excuse me for not giving a fuck about Avars or any Turkic tribes


I just posted an article written by Emil Heršak here, without any comment. If you have problems with it, go to the Zagreb university and yell to him, not to me or come to Istanbul to piss on the walls of Hagia Sophia because Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus wrote such things for your people in 10th century.

I do not care if my mother wrote that because scientific genetic proof>old historical proof. If we are talking about Eurasian people than we should have Q or N or P haplogoup or whatever among Croats but it IS NON-EXISTENT among Croats except that
in all of Croatia haplogroup P* has been found in two Croatian island. On one its presence was 6% and on the other it was 14% which would make all together around 3000 people and this is not worth mentioning Avars. The whole purpose of this thread was for you to show some connection with either Turks or Turkic tribes like Avars by putting these among larger text. Fuck you.

Amarantine
06-19-2012, 08:22 AM
:icon_ask:It was boring to me to read long post, but I would like to know if were white Croats, what happened with black Croats!?:bored0:

Duke
06-19-2012, 10:28 AM
:icon_ask:It was boring to me to read long post, but I would like to know if were white Croats, what happened with black Croats!?:bored0:

Colors were used to designate north, west, south, and east in the past.

Drawing-slim
06-19-2012, 11:07 AM
Croats are our illyrian blood brothers.
But, roman empire managed to assimilate them something they couldn't do further south, today albania/kosovo..

Then slavs came and same thing happened, they mixed co-existed with slavs but not us albanians. The simple proof of kosovars being under serbian and otoman rule forever amd never lost their albanian/illyrian language culture dispite being not allowed by turks to practice albanian while serbs were alowed to do anything they wanted, is a testament that no one can refute.
Also Arbereshet in italy today 600 year later still speak albanian perfect. another undisputed proof how well we preserve our language culture heritage.

This is why croats have a deep secret admiration for us. Dispite dukes trolling for fun here sometimes, or because he is maybe mad at his grand grand father for losing this albanian language:D

Insuperable
06-19-2012, 02:20 PM
Croats are our illyrian blood brothers.
But, roman empire managed to assimilate them something they couldn't do further south, today albania/kosovo..

Then slavs came and same thing happened, they mixed co-existed with slavs but not us albanians. The simple proof of kosovars being under serbian and otoman rule forever amd never lost their albanian/illyrian language culture dispite being not allowed by turks to practice albanian while serbs were alowed to do anything they wanted, is a testament that no one can refute.
Also Arbereshet in italy today 600 year later still speak albanian perfect. another undisputed proof how well we preserve our language culture heritage.

This is why croats have a deep secret admiration for us. Dispite dukes trolling for fun here sometimes, or because he is maybe mad at his grand grand father for losing this albanian language:D

But where does this now come from?
All of you were saying that we came with Slavs in the 7th century.
Since most of you like to say that todays Dalmatians share some of this mystic Illyrian blood I do not see how can that be since Albanians have 45% haplogroup E, followed by R1b around 20% and J2 which is close to 20%.
In Dalmatia haplogroup E frequencies are very low, haplogroup I2a is very high, R1b is low.....
So my whole point is that when you combine this ancestral markers with autosomal data it is evident that Dalmatians ( or Croats as a whole ) do not share much with Albanians. Because of that you can choose between two options.
One option and the most accepted is that we came with the Slavic expansion, pushed Illyrians of that time southwards and from some of these Illyrians we have todays Albanians ( I say some because historians show that you are actually a mix of Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians )
The second option is that we were Illyrians but your tribe cut off and you later mixed with Dacians, Thracians... because our ancestreal data show that we have very little in common except for Northern Albania where I2a is present around 10-15% which would nicely explain that.
Since you all were proponents of the option one I do not see where does that come what you said in your post.

safinator
06-19-2012, 02:24 PM
But where does this now come from?
All of you were saying that we came with Slavs in the 7th century.
Since most of you like to say that todays Dalmatians share some of this mystic Illyrian blood I do not see how can that be since Albanians have 45% haplogroup E, followed by R1b around 20% and J2 which is close to 20%.
In Dalmatia haplogroup E frequencies are very low, haplogroup I2a is very high, R1b is low.....
So my whole point is that when you combine this ancestral markers with autosomal data it is evident that Dalmatians ( or Croats as a whole ) do not share much with Albanians. Because of that you can choose between two options.
One option and the most accepted is that we came with the Slavic expansion, pushed Illyrians of that time southwards and from some of these Illyrians we have todays Albanians ( I say some because historians show that you are actually a mix of Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians )
The second option is that we were Illyrians but your tribe cut off and you later mixed with Dacians, Thracians... because our ancestreal data show that we have very little in common except for Northern Albania where I2a is present around 10-15% which would nicely explain that.
Since you all were proponents of the option one I do not see where does that come what you said in your post.
Again you make the same error.
I2a(The one present in high frequencies in Dalmatia) reaches significant frequencies only in southern Albania, in Northern Albania(Kosovo also) it's not common at all.

Panopticon
06-19-2012, 02:26 PM
Hg I is less than 10% among northern Albanians (Kosovars belong to that group as well) and not all of it is I2a even.

safinator
06-19-2012, 02:28 PM
Hg I is less than 10% among northern Albanians (Kosovars belong to that group as well) and not all of it is I2a even.
Actually I1 is more common than I2a there.

Insuperable
06-19-2012, 03:19 PM
Actually I1 is more common than I2a there.

hahahahaahhahaahah


Hg I is less than 10% among northern Albanians (Kosovars belong to that group as well) and not all of it is I2a even.


Again you make the same error.
I2a(The one present in high frequencies in Dalmatia) reaches significant frequencies only in southern Albania, in Northern Albania(Kosovo also) it's not common at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HaplogroupI2.png
It is a map of a specific I2a1b present on Balkans, southeastern and eastern Europe. The same I2a I am talking about.
Google haplogoup I2 and you will find that map so do not be confused because it says HaplogroupI2.png thinking that it is a map for I2 a not a specific I2a1b

For fuck sake how many time do I need to repeat myself?

Insuperable
06-19-2012, 03:20 PM
And in any case as you can see we do not have much in common regardless of that

safinator
06-19-2012, 03:32 PM
hahahahaahhahaahah





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HaplogroupI2.png
It is a map of a specific I2a1b present on Balkans, southeastern and eastern Europe. The same I2a I am talking about.
Google haplogoup I2 and you will find that map so do not be confused because it says HaplogroupI2.png thinking that it is a map for I2 a not a specific I2a1b

For fuck sake how many time do I need to repeat myself?
You shoould say ahah at yourself(Genial using maps instead of real haplogroup frequencies eh)

Y-Dna Albanians (http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html)

Arbereshe Y-dna (http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html) (Tosks basically)

Albanians from Kosovo (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full)(Ghegs basically) I haplogroup it's only 7.96 %

Illirico
06-19-2012, 03:37 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png/800px-HaplogroupI2.png

Quiet croat, this dna is not Illyrian;)

This myte is spread to Igenea FYROM propaganda:rolleyes2:

I2a1b1

Former I2a2a in the Y2010 tree. I2a1b1 (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%). Haplogroup I2a1b1 is also commonly found in north-eastern Italians. There is also a high concentration of I2a2a in north-east Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I2a1b1 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I2a1b1 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula.

Panopticon
06-19-2012, 03:38 PM
hahahahaahhahaahah





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HaplogroupI2.png
It is a map of a specific I2a1b present on Balkans, southeastern and eastern Europe. The same I2a I am talking about.
Google haplogoup I2 and you will find that map so do not be confused because it says HaplogroupI2.png thinking that it is a map for I2 a not a specific I2a1b

For fuck sake how many time do I need to repeat myself?

We have shown you studies that prove the otherwise. That's much more reliable than a map which are sketches based on trends. The reason it's like that on that map is to give the spread of I2a1b continuity and not be too confusing. And what study is that map based on?

It seems like you have a deep wish to be closer to Ghegs.

Illirico
06-19-2012, 03:40 PM
The name Dalmatia derives from the name of the tribe of the Dalmatae, which is connected with the Illyrian word delme, dele in modern Albanian, meaning "sheep" in English.

Dalmatia belong to the history of Illyrians Albanians not Croats that descendend to an ancient iranian tribe.

Insuperable
06-19-2012, 03:41 PM
You shoould say ahah at yourself(Genial using maps instead of real haplogroup frequencies eh)

But Tosks are southern Albanians and I laughed at him because he said that I1 is more comon in Northern Albania


Y-Dna Albanians (http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html)

Arbereshe Y-dna (http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html) (Tosks basically)

Albanians from Kosovo (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full)(Ghegs basically) I haplogroup it's only 7.96 %

I gave you a map and you can see that I2a ( presumebly I2a1b because of the map ) makes about 10% which is mostly located in Northern Albania
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

safinator
06-19-2012, 03:45 PM
But Tosks are southern Albanians and I laughed at him because he said that I1 is more comon in Northern Albania



I gave you a map and you can see that I2a ( presumebly I2a1b because of the map ) makes about 10% which is mostly located in Northern Albania
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-38Or80_CcWg/T2GKmR2YIBI/AAAAAAAAJwE/K2jN2vtuex8/s1600/618px-JeanLucPicardFacepalm.jpg
You can't understand or you don't want?
I'm out of here.

Insuperable
06-19-2012, 03:45 PM
That nicely fits with the option number two but even then we have nothing in common.

Panopticon
06-19-2012, 03:46 PM
But Tosks are southern Albanians and I laughed at him because he said that I1 is more comon in Northern Albania

You should look at the name you're replying to instead of looking at the picture and assume that it must be I who claimed that. It was actually Safinator, and he's right, northern Albanians and Kosovars have more I1 than I2a.

Maps aren't reliable in comparison to actual studies, btw. The actual studies show that northern Albanians (Ghegs, Kosovars) have more I1a than I2a, while the opposite is true for Tosks.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with the actual topic.

Insuperable
06-19-2012, 03:55 PM
You should look at the name you're replying to instead of looking at the picture and assume that it must be I who claimed that. It was actually Safinator, and he's right, northern Albanians and Kosovars have more I1 than I2a.

Maps aren't reliable in comparison to actual studies, btw. The actual studies show that northern Albanians (Ghegs, Kosovars) have more I1a than I2a, while the opposite is true for Tosks.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with the actual topic.

WTF is wrong with you people? People can lost their nerves by arguing with you.
I2a1b makes about 10-15% ( differs from a study to study but it is mostly in that range ) in Albania and it is mostly present in Northern Albania and the percentage of I1 is 2% in the whole Albanian than it is not possible in either case that I1 is higher whether in Northern or Southern Albania except maybe in a certain areas whether in Northen or Southern Albania.

Insuperable
06-19-2012, 03:56 PM
And that is not what I want to argue about. In either of those two options modern Croats nor southern or northern have nothing to do with modern Albanians

Panopticon
06-19-2012, 04:16 PM
WTF is wrong with you people? People can lost their nerves by arguing with you.
I2a1b makes about 10-15% ( differs from a study to study but it is mostly in that range ) in Albania and it is mostly present in Northern Albania and the percentage of I1 is 2% in the whole Albanian than it is not possible in either case that I1 is higher whether in Northern or Southern Albania except maybe in a certain areas whether in Northen or Southern Albania.

I2a is higher overall among Albanians, but not among Ghegs (Kosovars, northern Albanians) where I1 is higher while I in general is relatively low. It is possible because it is so as proven by studies. I don't understand why you just can't accept it.

Insuperable
06-19-2012, 04:22 PM
I2a is higher overall among Albanians, but not among Ghegs (Kosovars, northern Albanians) where I1 is higher while I in general is relatively low. It is possible because it is so as proven by studies. I don't understand why you just can't accept it.

I have posted a map of I2a1b and in any case forget about it. I do not want to argue specifically about that but you as always diverge from the main point

Sultan Suleiman
06-19-2012, 04:29 PM
Djeco izađite napolje...

Duke
06-20-2012, 01:51 PM
Why did Kurds infected this thread?

Illirico
06-20-2012, 05:38 PM
Common Origin of Croats, Serbs and Jats


Croats as Hrvati, Haravaitii, Arachosians or Sarasvatians, descendants of the ancient inhabitants of the Harauti province & the Haravaiti or Sarasvati River. Their mention on legendary inscriptions of Darius the Great. Croatian flag based on the chessboard, Croatian religion derived from primordial Iranic Sun-worship. Common origin of Croats and Serbs. Their relations with the Sarmatians, Saura Matii or Surya Madas, the Solar Medes. False claims of The Indian Express refuted. Scythian or Saka origin of Jats. Consequent commmon origin of Jats, Croats and Serbs. Genetic proof for the same is presented.


"The Croats of the Don, then had to come in ancient times from Iran. On a stone inscription of the King Darius (522-486 B.C.) the nation of the Haruavat-is appears among the 23 subject nations. The Persian sacred books of the Avesti (Vendidad) call that nation the Harahvaiti. The provinces settled by that nation encompassed in those times the southern half of modern south Afghanistan, the whole of Baluchistan and the eastern part of modern Iran. In that ancient province ought we to look for the paleo-fatherland of the modern Croats." (Mandic 1970, Chapter 1)


"Here the Iranian Croats mingled with the numerous local Slavic tribes and adopted the Slavic language from them. Meanwhile after the collapse of the Hunnic Empire the Croats organized the local Slavs into a state and gave them their national name. Before the invasion of the Avars ca. 560 the White or Western Croats created along with the Antes a great state extending north of the Carpathians from the upper Elbe to the upper Dniester. (35: Niederle, 263-266; Dvornik, The Slavs, 277-297) R. Heinzel is of the opinion that the Carpathians of the old Germanic Hervarsaga took their name from the Croats who called them the Harvate mountains i.e. Croatian mountains. (36: Heinzel, 499; Dvornik, op. cit., 284, sq.)" (Mandic 1970, Ch.1)


"There are old Croatian customs and national poems that have been cited as evidencing lingering traces of the fire and sun worship of the Iranians. Fire, the essence of human origin, the sun, and the great boiling cauldron around which the warriors spring in the age old kolo or circle dance, all these are ingredients in the national lore of the Croatian nation. The Croat vilas or fairy witches resemble the peris of Iranian mythology. Then there is the legendary Sviato zov, the personification of strength, a being almost too huge for the earth to bear. He is strongly reminiscent of the "elephant-bodied" Rustum of Persian legend." (Guldescu 1964, pt.1.II)

Genetics
A scholarly Croatian society called ZDPPH recently held a conference on the Iranic origin of Croats, where genetic evidence was presented. According to the society's president Nedjeljko Kujundzic, "Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin." (Hina 2000) Two days after the news conference, the book "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" by Mate Marcinko was released in which much additional proof was presented.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

Duke
06-20-2012, 05:39 PM
Common Origin of Croats, Serbs and Jats


Croats as Hrvati, Haravaitii, Arachosians or Sarasvatians, descendants of the ancient inhabitants of the Harauti province & the Haravaiti or Sarasvati River. Their mention on legendary inscriptions of Darius the Great. Croatian flag based on the chessboard, Croatian religion derived from primordial Iranic Sun-worship. Common origin of Croats and Serbs. Their relations with the Sarmatians, Saura Matii or Surya Madas, the Solar Medes. False claims of The Indian Express refuted. Scythian or Saka origin of Jats. Consequent commmon origin of Jats, Croats and Serbs. Genetic proof for the same is presented.







Genetics
A scholarly Croatian society called ZDPPH recently held a conference on the Iranic origin of Croats, where genetic evidence was presented. According to the society's president Nedjeljko Kujundzic, "Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin." (Hina 2000) Two days after the news conference, the book "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" by Mate Marcinko was released in which much additional proof was presented.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

Compare

Kurd
ygVFaqZUTZc
RjdWyjB_fvw


VS


Albo

ymWV7njULY4
2FUIZDqjpgI


We Albanians are Kurds mixed with south slavs, we must learn to accept it

Illirico
06-20-2012, 05:43 PM
Compare :rolleyes2:



http://shahidul.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/president-of-croatia-84221.jpg



http://www.misterinatura.altervista.org/foto/yeti.jpg



Difference?

Duke
06-20-2012, 05:47 PM
Compare :rolleyes2:



http://shahidul.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/president-of-croatia-84221.jpg



http://www.misterinatura.altervista.org/foto/yeti.jpg



Difference?

How would half gypsie prove anything?

I posted something important about us Albanians, we officially never had contacts with Kurds, while our folk, and customs is the almost the same.

There are some Kurds that even have same hats as us...

Rastko
06-20-2012, 08:42 PM
Sarmatians-Proto Slavs-Modern South Slavs.

Prince Carlo
06-21-2012, 01:31 PM
Kurd
RjdWyjB_fvw


Many of those Kurds have a familiar look.

Ushtari
06-21-2012, 01:39 PM
Outside Balkan

Prince Carlo
06-21-2012, 01:51 PM
Outside Balkan

Those Kurds are obviously from Anatolia. Iranian Kurds look gypsy.

Ushtari
06-21-2012, 01:59 PM
Those Kurds are obviously from Anatolia. Iranian Kurds look gypsy.
i was referring to Croats

Drawing-slim
06-21-2012, 02:08 PM
...

Gospodine
07-04-2012, 07:08 PM
I find it hilarious that the Croats and Onur here disagreed so much because both nation's ethnogenesis highly parallels each other.

The Croats get their name (and possibly but not conclusively certain elements of their toponyms, cultural symbols, personal/noble names, etc.) from some variation or another of an Iranic tribe that dwelled in the Caucasus-Black Sea region.

Modern day Turks are native Anatolians with a minute amount of Turkic admixture who adopted the language and certain aspects of the culture of Oghuz Turkic tribes that came into Anatolia via the Caucasus.

Having an Iranic ethnonym does not make the Croats "Iranians" or Indo-Iranian or in anyway shape or form genetically/ancestrally-related to the people that gave them their ethnonym.

It was simply another example of "Elite Dominance" that allowed certain, limited aspects of an Iranic tribe's culture to be transferred to some of the Proto-Slavs who dwelled in the Slavic Urheimat of Ukraine, before they moved south into the Balkans.

A similar scenario is plausible for the ethnoynm "Srbi"/"Serboi"/"Surabos"/"Sorabi" but has less validity because Srbi could well come from a Proto-Indo-European root "Ser".

Gospodine
07-04-2012, 07:22 PM
According to the society's president Nedjeljko Kujundzic, "Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin."

Please don't post this shit again.

Iranians as in the Persian ethnic group native to Iran (and not ancient tribes/peoples) are pred. J2a, with large amounts of Caucasian G, Central Asian Q and N, with some geographically isolated pockets of R1a1a (20-25%) of a South-West Asian clade, not related to the European R1a1 found in high frequency amongst Poles, Ukrainians and Russian.

J2a is practically non-existent in Croatia. As are G, Q and N.

In fact Iranians are one of the LEAST SIMILAR Near Eastern populations to Europeans.

Szegedist
03-31-2013, 07:44 PM
There is also a theory that they are descendants of Goths who speak a Slavic language by accident.

Here are some more theories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_Croats

As far as Avars go, they mixed with some of the Slavs in the Carpathian Basin, and were later assimilated by Hungarians.

Agramer
04-04-2013, 02:02 PM
Sarmatians implented parts of their culture to some proto-Slavs who then implented parts of their culture to people they encountered here Celto and Romano Illyrians.
Then we had later parts of Italian,German and Hungarian influx.
That's our origin I believe.

Sisak
04-24-2013, 10:07 AM
[SIZE=4]result of genetic analysis - Djakovo area
http://sokacgranicar.bloger.index.hr/

Sisak
04-24-2013, 10:08 AM
result of genetic analysis - Djakovo area

subota, ožujak 9, 2013
GENETIČKO PODRIJETLO ŠOKAČKIH RODOVA
Ivan Jurić, Agronomski fakultet Sveučilišta u Zagrebu

Knjiga Genetičko podrijetlo Hrvata; etnogeneza i genetička otkrića (Jurić 2003. i 2005a) pobudila je veliko zanimanje znanstvenih krugova pa i šire javnosti i pokrenula polemike o dosadašnjim teorijama o hrvatskom podrijetlu. Posebno su postavljana pitanja o veličini uzorka, odnosno broja analiza na osnovu kojih je napisana autorova knjiga. S ciljem stjecanja novih spoznaja o genetičkom podrijetlu Hrvata autor je pokrenuo opširnija istraživanja na većem uzorku uz analize nekih subpopulacija unutar hrvatskog naroda. Kao Šokca posebno ga je zanimala populacija Šokaca. Znatan broj uzoraka je i s područja bivše općine Đakovo. Rezultati uzoraka s područja bivše općine Vinkovci (18 uzoraka) već su objavljeni u Godišnjaku Ogranka Matice hrvatske Vinkovci (Jurić 2007.).

UVOD

Provode se istraživanja varijabilnosti na Y kromosomu Hrvata. Uzorci se uzimaju od Hrvata s područja Hrvatske i Bosne i Hercegovine. Do sada su završene analize 173 uzorka, a među njima i 42 analize Šokaca. Cjeloviti rezultati planiraju se obraditi u novoj knjizi.

Šokci kojih su uzorci analizirani potomci su starosjedilaca s područja županija Vukovarsko-srijemske, Osječko-baranjske i Brodsko-posavske. U istraživanjima sam posebnu pažnju posvetio Šokcima, jer sam Šokac i svi moji preci su Šokci. Ranije sam istraživao neolitizaciju u Hrvatskoj i udio potomaka neolitskih doseljenika (Jurić 2005b), te pretpostavio da bi Šokci možda mogli imati veći udio neolitskih haplotipova, jer su se do nedavno bavili isključivo poljodjelstvom i jer obitavaju na području plodnog tla. Zato je moguće pretpostaviti da je ovo područje bilo izuzetno interesantno neolitskim doseljenicima i da se veliko naseljavanje toga područja u neolitiku odražava i na sadašnju strukturu haplotipova Šokaca.

Uzorke sam počeo uzimati od Šokaca doseljenih u Zagreb, zatim od članova Vinkovačkih šokačkih rodova i Mikanovčana, a na kraju sam odlučio da uzorkovanje proširim i na područje Osječko-baranjske i Brodsko-posavske županije.

Uzorci su uzeti iz slijedećih šokačkih rodova: Apić (Vinkovci), Augustinović (Semeljci), Babaić (St. Mikanovci), Balić (Antin), Barić (Kondrić), Benak (Baranjsko Petrovo Selo), Brlić (Davor), Budrovac (Budrovci), Ciganović (Budrovci), Cvrković (Vinkovci), Čavčić (Podvinje), Čordašić (Vinkovci), Debelić (Prkovci), Ferić (Sapci), Ferić (Slavonski Kobaš), Jerković (St. Mikanovci), Josipović (Koritna), Jurić (St. Mikanovci), Juzbašić (Županja), Kapetanović (Donja Motičina), Kablarević (St. Mikanovci), Kedačić (Budrovci) Liščić (Vinkovci), Mandić (Široko Polje), Marinović (Beketinci), Martinović (St. Mikanovci), Pačarić (Semeljci), Pejaković (St. Mikanovci), Petričević (St. Mikanovci), Ručević (St. Mikanovci), Ručević (Budrovci),Senčić (Vinkovci), Subotić (Nijemci), Šalić F. (Viškovci), Šalić T. (Viškovci), Šokčević (Gunja), Takšić (Vinkovci), Vragolović D. (Strizivojna), Vragolović J. (Strizivojna), Vučevac (Prkovci), Vuković (Gašinci), Zaluški (Vinkovci).

U zagradi je mjesto iz kojega davatelju uzorka potječe najstariji poznati mu predak po slijedu muških predaka očeve loze.

Analize Y kromosoma navedenih uzoraka obavljene su u SAD, na osnovu mogućnosti koje pruža Genographic Project, a koji provode National Geographic i IBM.

Svaki davatelj uzorka dobio je od National geographica i IBM-a tri dokumenta: dokument o rezultatu analize, dokument o geografskim područjima mutacija, i opis rezultata analize. Rezultati su prikazani u sustavu i nomenklaturi Y kromosom konzorcija (YCC), s manjim izmjenama National Geographica, pa sam taj sustav nazvao «Nomenklaturom National Geographica» (NNG). Kako su prvi rezultati uzorka iz Hrvatske prikazani u Eu-sustavu (Semino i sur. 2000.), jer je YCC sustav postavljen kasnije, koristiti ću se i Eu- sustavom, jer ću na taj način moći usporediti rezultate sadašnjih istraživanja s istraživanjima Ornelle Semino i suradnika iz 2000. godine.

Davatelji uzoraka s istim prezimenima nisu u srodstvu po očevoj lozi u slijedu muških predaka kroz generacije u kojima znaju svoje pretke. Analize dvaju Ručevića i Ferića pokazale su da nisu srodni po očinskim lozama, jer imaju različite haplogrupe. Analize dvaju Šalića imaju vrlo malu razliku na lokusu 391, a analize dvaju Vragolovića su identične. Svi uzorci s istim prezimenima su uzeti u analizu.


O različitostima unutar haplotipova po Eu sustavu i haplogrupa po NNG sustavu neće se detaljnije raspravljati i zbog novopredložene nomenklature i sistematizacije unutar haplogrupe I (za Hrvate najznačajnije). Po toj novoj specifikaciji veći broj istraživanja će se tek objavljivati.

Haplotip Eu7 nazivati ću hrvatskim, Eu18 baskijskim, Eu19 slavenskim, a haplotipove Eu4 i Eu9 neolitskim haplotipovima.

REZULTATI ISTRAŽIVANJA I RASPRAVA O REZULTATIMA

Kao što su rezultati s područja Vinkovaca (Jurić 2007.) uspoređeni s prvim analizama uzorka iz Hrvatske u radu Ornelle Semino i suradnika (2000.), tako se u tablici 1. uspoređuju rezultati 42 uzorka Šokaca s rezultatima istraživanja Semino i suradnika iz 2000. godine.

Ističem da su rezultati Semino i suradnika prvi rezultati analiza uzoraka iz Hrvatske.

Tablica 1.

Genetička struktura analize 42 uzorka Šokaca i rezultati 58 uzoraka iz rada Semino i suradnika.

VIDJETI TABLICU NA LINKU

Redoslijed haplotipova u tablici 1. poredan je po utvrđenom vremenu pristizanja potomakaHomo sapiensa na povijesno područje Hrvatske.

Rezultati prikazani u tablici 1. pokazuju da Šokci najviše odstupaju od rezultata Semino i suradnika u postotku slavenskog haplotipa Eu19. Šokci ga imaju manje 12,64% (29,31-16,67). S druge pak strane Šokci imaju znatno više predaka (Eu4 i Eu9) koji su pristigli prije oko 8.000 godina, arheološki vrlo dobro istraženim neolitskim doseljavanjem za vrijeme starčevačke kulture. Kod Šokaca je Eu4 haplotipa više za 5,01%, a haplotipa Eu9 za 1,97%, odnosno oba neolitska haplotipa je kod Šokaca više 6,98%. Hrvatskog haplotipa Eu7 Šokci imaju više 5,17%. Šokci imaju više i baskijskog haplotipa za 1,56%. Kod Šokaca je nađen haplotip Eu15 (2,38%) koji nije nađen u istraživanjima Semino i suradnika ali su u tim istraživanjima nađeni haplotipovi Eu11 i Eu16 (3,45%), koji u istraživanjima Šokaca nisu nađeni. Haplotip Eu11(M201) se također svrstava u neolitsku skupinu haplotipova.

Haplotip Eu18, odnosno haplogrupa R1b u NNG sustavu.

Sisak
04-24-2013, 10:09 AM
Nosioci haplotipa Eu18, odnosno haplogrupe R1b potomci su prvih doseljenika Homosapiensa u Europu. Možemo reći da su to najstariji Europljani. Njihovo doseljavanje je počelo prije oko 45.000 godina iz pravca Urala kamo su došli iz centralne Azije.

Nemamo nikakvih elemenata za hipotezu da su na područje Hrvatske preci Šokaca nosilaca ovoga haplotipa pristigli nekim kasnijim doseljavanjem. Razmještaj njihovih potomaka po Hrvatskoj i BiH sugerira da su njihovi preci ovdje od prvih doseljavanja. Ipak, ako detaljnija istraživanja pokažu da je na područjima gdje je postojao utjecaj Kelta ovoga haplotipa nešto više, tada će se moći pretpostaviti da su Kelti mogli pridonijeti povećanju ovoga haplotipa među Hrvatima. Naravno, preci svakoga Hrvata mogli su pristići na područje Hrvatske i pojedinačnim doseljavanjem, ali je sigurno da je postotak takovih doseljavanja malen.

Haplogrupa R1b nađena je kod sljedećih davatelja uzoraka: Balić (Antin), Marinović (Beketinci), Pejaković (St. Mikanovci), Ručević (Budrovci), Vučevac (Prkovci). Nastanak njihovih mutacija označen je s dva markera: M343 i M269.

Ove haplogrupe ima najviše na zapadu Europe, posebno je visok postotak među Baskima s čijeg područja se stanovništvo širilo na sjever poslije ledenoga doba. Ova haplogrupa je velika značajka Iraca, ali stanovništvo se u Irsku doseljavalo poslije ledenog doba.

Haplotip Eu15, odnosno haplogrupa K2 po NNG nomenklaturi

Ovaj Y kromosom dosad nije nađen u Hrvatskoj. Redoslijed mutacija označen markerima je slijedeći: M168-M89-M9-M70. Mutacija je nastala na Bliskom ili Srednjem istoku. U Europu je pristigao prije oko 30.000 godina. Misli se da je to prvo doseljavanje potomakaHomo sapiensa s Bliskog istoka preko Male Azije pa Balkanskog poluotoka, ali i obalama Mediterana (Wells 2006). Ovo otkriće je značajno jer pomaže razumijevanju pojava novih paleolitičkih kultura u Europi. Smatra se da su povećanju ove haplogrupe u Mediteranu mogli pridonijeti i Feničani doseljavanjem u kolonije koje su osnivali, a Feničani su imali značajan udio haplogrupe K2 (Wells 2006, Jurić 2007.)

Ovu haplogrupu ima Kablarević (St. Mikanovci). Haplogrupu K2, odnosno haplotip Eu15, radi lakšeg svladavanja nomenklature mogli bi nazvati feničanskim haplotipom (haplogrupom).

Rod prezimena Kablarević jedini je u Hrvatskoj, a nosilac je izuzetno rijetkog Y kromosoma. Za sada ovu pojavu treba smatrati slučajnošću, ali ovaj slučaj može biti poticaj da se pristupi istraživanju varijabilnosti haplogrupa unutar prezimena.

Haplotip Eu7, odnosno haplogrupa I po NNG nomenklaturi

U haplogrupu I svrstani su haplotipovi Eu7 i Eu8. Ovo spajanje je pojasnilo podrijetlo haplotipa Eu8. Naime, jasno je da je Eu8 nastao mutacijom iz Eu7 i to iz mutacije koja je označena P37.2 za koju je sigurno da je nastala uz istočnu jadransku obalu.

Nastala mutacija koja je označena kao Eu8 označena je markerom M26. Po najnovijem načinu označavanja različitosti u haplogrupi I (Underhill i sur. 2007.) veza ta dva haplotipa je sljedeća: I2a*(P37.2)-I2a1*(M26). Ovim novim tumačenjem postalo je nedvojbeno da se Eu8, koji se javlja raštrkano po Mediteranu, tamo pojavio seljenjem predaka Hrvata s jadranske obale na obale diljem Sredozemnog mora. Tih davnih iseljenika s naše obale naročito je mnogo na Sardiniji, Korzici pa i u okolici Cadiza, zapadno od Gibraltara gdje je nekada bila fenička kolonija. Ovim spoznajama odbačena su neka ranija mišljenja da je Eu8 (M26) razmješten po obalama Sredozemlja pristizao sa zapada Europe.

Haplogrupu I od analiziranih Šokaca imaju sljedeći davatelji uzoraka: Apić (Vinkovci), Augustinović (Semeljci), Babaić (St.Mikanovci), Brlić (Davor), Ciganović (Budrovci), Čavčić (Podvinje), Debelić (Prkovci), Ferić (Sapci), Jerković (St.Mikanovci), Juzbašić (Županja), Kapetanović (Donja Motičina), Liščić (Vinkovci), Mandić (Široko Polje), Pačarić (Semeljci), Ručević (St. Mikanovci), Subotić (Nijemci), Šalić F. (Viškovci), Šalić T. (Viškovci), Takšić (Vinkovci), Vragolović D. (Strizivojna) i Vragolović J. (Strizivojna).

Preci po očevoj lozi davatelja uzoraka s haplogrupom I pristigli su u Europu s Bliskog istoka prije oko 20.000 godina. Noviji izračuni (Underhill i sur. 2007.) pokazuju da je to vjerojatnije bilo i ranije, možda i prije 28.000 godina. U opisu rezultata koja je iz SAD-a, odNational Geographica, dobio svaki pripadnik ove haplogrupe I, stoji da je ovim doseljavanjem naseljen Balkan («Occupying the Balkans»). Istočno od Hrvatske i BiH kasnijim neolitskim doseljavanjem smanjuje se udio haplogrupe I, dok je na hrvatskom povijesnom području haplogrupa I (haplotip Eu7) najučestalija, s većim udjelom nego kod bilo kojeg drugog naroda. Ova haplogrupa je glavna značajka Hrvata pa sam je zato nazvao i hrvatskim haplotipom odnosno hrvatskom haplogrupom. Unutar haplogrupe I po NNG nomenklaturi nađeni su sljedeći markeri: M170, P37.2, M253 i M227.

Sisak
04-24-2013, 10:10 AM
Osim Hrvata veliki udio haplogrupe I imaju i Bošnjaci te Šveđani i Norvežani. To znači da je poslije ledenog doba, kada se u Skandinaviji otopio led, najbrojnije doseljavanje bilo s tople jadranske obale. Istočno od Karpata najveći udio haplogrupe I nađen je među Moldavcima. Od istočnoeuropskih naroda izgleda da ove haplogrupe najviše imaju Bjelorusi. Među Nijemcima najviše ga je na području Pruske i oko Kiela. Na području Švedske s kojeg su u pohode polazili Vikinzi udio haplogrupe I visok je otprilike kao i kod Hrvata. Veliki je udio haplogrupe I i kod Danaca. Ovakav razmještaj haplogrupe I pobudio je značajan interes, pa je na simpoziju održanom na Sveučilištu Cambridge haplogrupa I bila temeljito analizirana i raspravljena. Istaknuto je da je ova haplogrupa europska paleolitička značajka. Kod toga treba istaknuti da je Underhill najveći autoritet kada je u pitanju metodika analiza Y kromosoma. Iznesena je i hipoteza da su nosioci ove haplogrupe I govorili vlastitim, očito predindoeuropskim, jezikom. Kako su paleolitski nosioci haplogrupe I (haplotipa Eu7) preci Hrvata više od bilo kojeg drugog naroda bilo bi logično početi tragati za eventualnim ostacima toga jezika.

Haplotip Eu4, odnosno haplogrupa E po NNG nomenklaturi

Preci ove haplogrupe su na Bliski istok preko Sueza počeli pristizati prije oko 30.000 godina. Bili su sudionici pokretanja neolitske revolucije, za koju sve više autora smatra da je bila dosada najveće ubrzanje razvoja ljudskog društva. U tome su razdoblju stvoreni uvjeti porasta brojnosti ljudi za nevjerojatnih 50.000%. Naime, u neolitskoj revoluciji pripitomljene su biljke i životinje te je počela proizvodnja hrane. Tada je otkrivena tehnika proizvodnje keramike, a osmišljenim oslikavanjem keramike započinju i prvi «zapisi». Povećanjem populacije ljudi na Bliskom istoku, s toga prostora počelo je seljenje na sve strane svijeta pa i preko Male Azije na Balkanski poluotok te dalje na sjever, zapad i istok ostatka Europe. Na područje s kojega su uzeti uzorci Šokaca nosioci ove haplogrupe donose starčevačku kulturu kojom započinje neolitizacija. Najstariji nalaz koji dokazuje započetu neolitizaciju nađen je kod Zadubravlja i star je preko 8.000 godina.

Među Šokcima ova haplogrupa je utvrđena na sljedećim davateljima uzoraka: Ferić (Slavonski Kobaš), Cvrković (Vinkovci), Čordašić (Vinkovci), Martinović (St. Mikanovci), Vuković (Gašinci).

Marker svih davatelja je M35 i svrstani su u suphaplogrupu E3b. Ovu haplogrupu svrstao sam među neolitske haplotipove (haplogrupe), jer su preci davatelja ove haplogrupe širili neolitsku revoluciju po Europi. Narodi sjeverne Afrike imaju veliki udio ove haplogrupe kao i Grci, Albanci, pa i Srbi.

Haplotip Eu9, odnosno haplogrupa J po NNG nomenklaturi

Preci nosilaca haplogrupe J također spadaju u neolitske donosioce revolucionarnih promjena na područje Europe, a pristižu prije oko 8.000 godina. Veliki udio ove haplogrupe imaju žitelji Bliskog istoka te Mezopotamije. Veliki postotak imaju ga i Turci, Kurdi, a Židovi ga smatraju svojom značajkom. Među Šokcima nađen je na davateljima: Josipović (Koritna), Šokčević (Gunja) i Zaluški (Vinkovci). Unutar ove haplogrupe nađeni su markeri M172 koji su označeni kao haplogrupa J2 i marker M304 označen kao haplogrupa J. Davatelj uzorka Šokčević ima zajedničkog pretka s banom Šokčevićem pa sada znamo da je Ban imao haplogrupu J2(M172), odnosno haplotip Eu9.

Haplotip Eu19, odnosno haplogrupa R1a po NNG nomenklaturi

Ova haplogrupa nastala je mutacijom označenom markerom M17 tek prije oko 15.000 godina. Smatra se da je nastala u ukrajinskoj, a možda i u ruskoj stepi. Nosioci ove genetičke značajke početkom topljenjem leda, odnosno zatopljenja širili su se na sjever prema Finskoj, Norveškoj i Švedskoj, slično kao što su se zatopljenjem i otapanjem leda na sjever širili i nosioci baskijskog i hrvatskog haplotipa. Ova slavenska haplogrupa glavno je obilježje Rusa, Ukrajinaca, Bjelorusa, Poljaka, Slovaka, pa i Mađara, ali ne i Hrvata, Čeha, Slovenaca, Srba, Bošnjaka i Makedonaca, naroda čiji jezik pripada slavenskoj grupi jezika.

Poslije domestikacije konja u ukrajinskoj stepi populacije ove haplogrupe usvajaju tehniku jahanja, koriste borna kola i počinju prodore na jug na područje Perzije, Indije, Male Azije, Grčke, pa i zapadno od Dunava. Nazivaju ih raznim imenima: Arijcima, Hetitima, Medijcima, a kasnije Skitima. Na područja Perzije i Indije šire indoeuropski jezik, a na zapadu vjerojatno samo povećavaju razlike unutar već postojećeg indoeuropskog jezika. Značajni prodor na hrvatsko povijesno područje započinje oko 1100 godina prije Krista. Pristigli konjanici su vladajući sloj Daljske i Bosutske grupe, grupe Martijanec-Kaptol, grupe Budinjak, Kolapijana i Japoda, uz veliki utjecaj među Liburnima. Pristizanje ovih konjanika je izuzetno dobro registrirano arheološkim nalazima.

Po dosada poznatoj različitosti unutar haplogrupe R1a, i njenim razmještajem po Hrvatskoj i BiH, moguće je postaviti hipotezu da je ovim prodorom prije oko 3000 godina na područje Hrvatske pristigao najveći broj predaka današnjih nositelja ove haplogrupe. Sigurno je ova haplogrupa pristizala i seobom naroda. Međutim, prije oko 2.500 godina prevlast konjanika Azije je tolika da se kasnija pristizanja ovoga haplotipa mogu tumačiti kroz pridruživanje stanovništva s ovim haplotipom azijatskim prodorima Huna, Avara i Mongola. Veći broj tada pristiglih nosilaca slavenskog haplotipa vjerojatno su već bili u istočnoj Panoniji s druge strane dunavskog limesa. Šokci davatelji uzorka koji su imali Eu19 haplotip odnosno haplogrupu R1a su: Barić (Kondrić), Benko (Baranjsko Petrovo Selo), Budrovac (Budrovci), Jurić (St. Mikanovci), Kedačić (Budrovci), Petričević (St. Mikanovci), Senčić (Vinkovci). Unutar ove haplogupe utvrđena su dva markera; M17 i SRY 10831.2, a oba su označena kao suphaplogrupa R1a1.

Hrvatski haplotip Eu7, odnosno haplogrupa I, najveća je značajka Hrvata, čak i onih koji imaju druge haplotipove odnosno haplogrupe

Već sam nekoliko puta napisao da je Eu7, odnosno haplogrupa I najveća ili barem vrlo značajna genetička značajka svih Hrvata, pa i onih koji imaju druge haplotipove. Objašnjenje je dosta jednostavno pa ipak ima dosta zahtjeva da to detaljnije objasnim. Iznesena tvrdnja počiva na činjenici da se genetičko podrijetlo duboko u prošlost otkriva preko različitosti dijela Y kromosoma koji se ne rekombinira, a taj dio Y kromosoma je maleni dio cijelog genoma svakog pojedinca. Prema Sykesu (2006.) na Y kromosomu su samo 27 gena, a neki misle da ih je samo nekoliko funkcionalnih. Na svim kromosomima svako ljudsko biće ima oko 30.000 gena. Te gene svakom pojedincu po određenim genetičkim zakonitostima prenose svi njegovi preci, znači preci različitih haplogrupa.

Kako je među Šokcima oko 50% nositelja Eu7, znači hrvatskog haplotipa (haplogrupe I), tada po zakonu vjerojatnosti Šokci u prosjeku imaju 50% predaka nositelja Eu7, odnosno haplogrupe I pa su oko 50% gena naslijedili od predaka s hrvatskim haplotipom i taj haplotip im je najbrojnija genetička značajka.

Nalazio sam osobe koje su u srodstvu s mojim šukundjedovima i koje su naslijedile Y kromosom po muškom slijedu potomaka. Tragao sam za takvim potomcima 8 mojih šukundjedova, oni su iz kućnih zadruga (rodova): Jurića, Vragolovića, Petričevića, Babaića, Kablarevića, Kulundžića, Jerkovića i Pejakovića. Za 7 loza mojih šukundjedova prikazani su haplotipovi (haplogrupe) u ovom radu, a još uvijek nisam našao slijed loze Kulundžića. Moj šukundjed, kao Europljanin s najranijim pristiglim precima, iz loze je Pejakovića i baskijskog je haplotipa Eu18 te sam njegovom lozom dobio oko 12,5% gena od svih dobivenih gena 8 šukundjedova. Iz druge loze po starosti u Europi mi je šukundjed Kablarević haplogrupe K2 i od njega sam također naslijedio oko 12,5% gena. Imam tri šukundjeda nosioca hrvatskog haplotipa Eu7 (Vragolović, Babaić, Jerković) i od njih sam naslijedio oko 37,5% gena, a šukundjedovi sa slavenskim haplotipovima Eu19 su iz zadruga Jurić i Petričević i od njih sam naslijedio oko 25% gena, a za 12,5% gena od šukundjeda Kulundžića još uvijek ne znam haplotip. Kod iznošenja ovih podataka treba reći da su i šukundjedovi imali gene od svojih predaka raznih haplotipova i da su oni dalje prenosili gene dobivene iz loza tih haplotipova.

Sisak
04-24-2013, 10:11 AM
Naravno, postoji vjerojatnost da u matičnim knjigama nisu upisani stvarni biološki preci, ali i učestalost takvih pojava trebala bi biti korelativno povezana s postocima haplotipova u populaciji.

Prema tome, postoci haplotipova u nekoj populaciji prenose se na potomstvo kao postoci svih gena. Postotak haplogrupe I među Hrvatima trebao bi biti i prosječni postotak gena Hrvata naslijeđenih od predaka s haplogrupom I. To vrijedi za sve haplogrupe. Naravno, svaki prosjek neke populacije ima i standardnu devijaciju.

ZAKLJUČCI

Šokci su autohtoni kao i ostali dio hrvatskog naroda.

Možemo zaključiti da je glavna genetička značajka svih Šokaca hrvatski haplotip Eu7, odnosno haplogrupa I.

Šokci imaju nešto veći udio neolitskih haplogrupa.

Najveća razlika između Šokaca i rezultata uzorka iz cijele Hrvatske koje je publicirala Semino i suradnici 2000. godine je postotni udio slavenskog haplotipa, kojega Šokci imaju svega 16,67%, a u istraživanjima Ornelle Semino iznosio je 29,31%. Na osnovu analiza koje nisu objavljene (Jurić 2007) sigurno je da je udio slavenskog haplotipa kod Šokaca znatno manji od prosjeka ostalog dijela Hrvatske, ali viši od uzorka iz zapadne Hercegovine i Splitsko-dalmatinske županije.

ZAHVALA

Na donaciji za obavljanje analiza uzoraka s đakovačkog područja zahvaljujem se Gradu Đakovu i tvrtci „Đakovačka vina“ d.d. Na trudu oko pronalaženja donatora i davatelja uzoraka zahvaljujem se gospodinu. Marinku Zirdumu, predsjedniku Ogranka Matice hrvatske, Đakovo. Zahvalan sam na osobnoj donaciji gospodinu Luki Bebiću, čijim sredstvima su financirani troškovi analiza dijela uzoraka Šokaca. Zahvalan sam sinu Davoru na lektoriranju teksta prije predaje za tisak. Na pomoći pri pripremi ovoga rada zahvaljujem se dipl.ing. Mirjani Mihelčić i mr.sc. Vlatki Čubrić Čurik.