The Binding of Fenrir

[Rachel]

.. in Kevin Crossley Holland 's Version of Norse Myths particularly the myth of The Binding of Fenrir it seems that after Tyr offers his hand and Fenrir is bound and cannot escape that all the gods laugh and make merry but do not acknowledge the cries of paining coming from the god who sacrificed his hand in order to do so?

something seems wrong here... do the Northern gods have no compassion ??

And what about Loki... after all of his trickster ways why do they not simply do away with him.. why do they continuously allow him to start mischief ?

[Gooding]

.. in Kevin Crossley Holland 's Version of Norse Myths particularly the myth of The Binding of Fenrir it seems that after Tyr offers his hand and Fenrir is bound and cannot escape that all the gods laugh and make merry but do not acknowledge the cries of paining coming from the god who sacrificed his hand in order to do so?

something seems wrong here... do the Northern gods have no compassion ??

And what about Loki... after all of his trickster ways why do they not simply do away with him.. why do they continuously allow him to start mischief ?

I think the Aesir and the Vanir are compassionate when they can afford to be.I'm more than certain that the goddess of healing, Eir, was tending Tyr after Fenrir tore his hand away and as Tyr is an honorable god, he kept the pledge of honor that the wolf demanded of all of them. Loki strikes me almost as being ( in a very real sense) a necessary evil.He brings the reality of consequences to the Aesir,Vanir and Jotnar alike and after he verbally lashes the Aesir and Vanir at the Lokasenna, he is hunted down and punished. I think Loki's an interesting character in that he does bring growth and change, but he goes about it using destruction.The events Loki sets in motion lead directly to Ragnarok and the new world after. Thor and Odin both value the sort of street smarts that Loki brings to the table and they rely on him as a travelling companion in many tales.

[Rachel]

I
Thor and Odin both value the sort of street smarts that Loki brings to the table and they rely on him as a travelling companion in many tales.

This was something else i noticed in another myth ( from the same book ) The building of the Asgard's Wall.. it seems in this myth that Odin looks to Loki like as his right hand man, asking him for advice and taking it and then warmly welcoming Loki back in after Loki uses gifts to get back in the good graces of the all father ?

It seems that if Odin and Thor trust in him that the rest of the gods do as well without much hesitation ...?

[Svarog]

Loki strikes me almost as being ( in a very real sense) a necessary evil.

This is actually one of the greatest shortest explanation of the Loki's character I ever read/heard, I am not sure would I use the word evil but for sure balance needs to exist and that is where Loki comes in and why he is character of greatest importance, surely one of the most interesting ones.

[Gooding]

Yeah..in the distant past, I recall reading that Odin and Loki sealed themselves to each other in a blood binding ceremony and therefore Loki was accepted and honored(for awhile) by the Aesir and Vanir alike for his cunning and ruses to strengthen the Aesir and to give them the means of thwarting their enemies.

[Skandi]

Ethologist Dr. Valerius Geist of the University of Calgary, Alberta wrote that Fenrir's maiming and ultimate killing of Odin, who had previously nurtured him, was likely based on true experiences of wolf behaviour, seeing as wolves are genetically encoded to rise up the pack hierarchy and have on occasion been recorded to rebel against and kill their parents. Geist states that "apparently, even the ancients knew that wolves may turn on their parents and siblings and kill them."[42]
ok it's from Wiki but it is still valid I feel.

[Rachel]

well theres another aspect of it, Tyr has his hand ripped off by the wolf and he crys out in pain.. this would seem to make him human... from other myth stories i have read it seems that other cultures ( celtic mostly) there gods don't feel pain... in fact they cause it more then they feel it... so what makes our gods... Gods ? if they feel pain in one story and in another myth ( The Theft of Idun's Apples) they feel hunger and cold... these qualities are the same qualities that we feel here so what makes them different...

if nothing else makes them different why can't we be gods..?


ok it's from Wiki but it is still valid I feel.

But Loki is the father.. not odin so why kill Odin and not Loki..? I mean this wolf speaks so why not plan revenge against the father who birthed him and then did not come to his rescue..?

[Gooding]

The difference being that they govern the universe and are regarded by myself at least as Elder Kin..

[Skandi]

well theres another aspect of it, Tyr has his hand ripped off by the wolf and he crys out in pain.. this would seem to make him human... from other myth stories i have read it seems that other cultures ( celtic mostly) there gods don't feel pain... in fact they cause it more then they feel it... so what makes our gods... Gods ? if they feel pain in one story and in another myth ( The Theft of Idun's Apples) they feel hunger and cold... these qualities are the same qualities that we feel here so what makes them different...

if nothing else makes them different why can't we be gods..?
We can, there are presidents of non gods being elevated by marriage. I suspect that the gods are old heroes, that have been elevated to godhood, Sigurd was probably on the way there before the Christians arrived.


But Loki is the father.. not odin so why kill Odin and not Loki..? I mean this wolf speaks so why not plan revenge against the father who birthed him and then did not come to his rescue..?
I doubt it needs to be that specific, Odin is the father of the gods, and I don't think that Loki was involved in the upbringing. Do we normally do things logically? Or maybe Fenrir saw more, maybe he knows he is just waiting or that Loki would be powerless in a direct confrontation with the Aesir.

[Rachel]

I doubt it needs to be that specific, Odin is the father of the gods, and I don't think that Loki was involved in the upbringing. Do we normally do things logically? Or maybe Fenrir saw more, maybe he knows he is just waiting or that Loki would be powerless in a direct confrontation with the Aesir.

well i do have a tendency to over think things ... my brain is on over drive right now...

[Psychonaut]

.. in Kevin Crossley Holland 's Version of Norse Myths particularly the myth of The Binding of Fenrir it seems that after Tyr offers his hand and Fenrir is bound and cannot escape that all the gods laugh and make merry but do not acknowledge the cries of paining coming from the god who sacrificed his hand in order to do so?

something seems wrong here... do the Northern gods have no compassion ??

And what about Loki... after all of his trickster ways why do they not simply do away with him.. why do they continuously allow him to start mischief ?

Let's take a look at the tale as it's presented in the original sources before we jump to any conclusions. ;)


The gods decided to shackle the wolf Fenrisulfr (Fenrir), but the beast broke every chain they put upon him. Eventually they had the dwarves make them a magical ribbon called Gleipnir from the noise a cat makes when it moves, the sinews of a bear, the breath of a fish, the spittle of a bird, the beard of a woman, and the roots of a mountain. The gods took those items from the world and that is why they do not exist today. Fenrir refused to be bound with it unless one of the gods put his hand in the wolf's mouth.


Tyr agreed, and the other gods bound the wolf. After Fenrir had been bound by the gods, he struggled to try and break the rope. When the gods saw that Fenrir was bound they all laughed, except Tyr, who had his right hand bitten off by Fenrisulfr.


Of great importance these asas seem to me to be, and it is not wonderful that you have great power, since you have such excellent knowledge of the gods, and know to which of them to address you prayers on each occasion. But what other gods are there? Har answered: There is yet an asa, whose name is Tyr. He is very daring and stout-hearted. He sways victory in war, wherefore warriors should call on him. There is a saw, that he who surpasses others in bravery, and never yields, is Tyr-strong. He is also so wise, that it is said of anyone who is specially intelligent, that he is Tyr-learned. A proof of his daring is, that when the asas induced the wolf Fenrer to let himself be bound with the chain Gleipner, he would not believe that they would loose him again until Tyr put his hand in his mouth as a pledge. But when the asas would not loos the Fenris-wolf, he bit Tyr's hand off at the place of the wolf's joint (the wrist; Icel. úlfliðr). From that time Tyr is one-handed, and he is now called a peacemaker among men.

I think that you might be reading a bit much into that one line. Most of the myths, especially those in the Poetic Edda, don't really read like contemporary fiction. The Gods don't fill the same kinds of roles that a normal character does; their roles are archetypal. The actions they perform are done in the course of fulfilling their function within the schemata of their particular mythos. The sacrifice of Tyr is not something that was avoidable; it is not something to be lamented; it was a necessary act within the Germanic cosmos, one that can't really be compared to the loss of a human's hand.

[Rachel]

If it was not meant to be compared why does the Myth from the book that i am currently reading mention it at all? why mention the cold and the hunger that the gods feel from the myth of " the Theft of Iduns Apples. " if it was not important why add it..? for detail... that dosnt seem right... most gods in other cultures are all powerful , feel no pain, no emotion they just are.. the feelings of our gods are important otherwise these traits would not have been brought up... no?

[Lyfing]

Our gods and goddesses have plenty of feelings. What they feel is very important to me. Sometimes I will sit around and remember their stories. Like with friends and family I remember how it is to feel like each other. Like we are in it together. To take part in the joys and the sorrows..

There are a few stanzas from the Poetic Edda that really stick out to me that I am moved by..

To think of love-sick Frey..


“How tell thee my yearning, oh youth, as thou wishest--
why heavy my heart?
The alf's beam shineth all these long days,
but ligher groweth not my longing.”

Skirnismal 4, Hollander trans.

Oh, how I know the love-sickness. He is heavy of heart because of falling in love. He is good at bringing about the babies too..!! Those two go hand in hand.

What to think of Frigga? Balder is dead. He is the best in us and he lives in us. She, we can call her Nerthus..and Jord..she is Mother Earth..we are her children..she goes round and round..just look at day and night..she cries..but she knows ( even though she never says ) what the eternal return is all about..


Neither cleanses his hands nor combed his hair
till Baldr's slayer he sent to Hel;
but Frigg did weep in Fensalir
the fateful deed: know yet further, or how?

Voluspa 33, Hollander trans.

Our hearts sunk in sorrow..


“For Balder the beer brewed here standeth,
a shield lies over the shining drink;
in sorrow are sunk the sons of Othin.
I was loath to speak, now let me cease.”

Baldrs draumar 7, Hollander trans.

At Ragnarok we will battle and we will live again. This is one of the ways they live with us. We are their descendants and we act like them. Frigga will be happy. She knows all of this already. We all do. It goes in cirlces. Like her spindle. Yggdrasil tembles.

…

Odin is known as a god of frenzy. Frenzy is a feeling. Our gods are named after feelings. Every one of them. When I think about them they make me feel something. Like the pinch while sleeping..we are alive..we are dreaming them inasmuch as our dreams become ours..

As a side note..I came up with this thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=58496#post58496) to talk about Tyr (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=58496#post58496)..

Later,
-Lyfing