Should Turkey recognize Armenian Genocide?

[Optimus]

I think it is time for Republic of Turkey to see forward and recognize the systematic killings of Armenian population during the WWI.

All of historians recognize it as the first modern genocide made upon a population.They caused the death of 1-1.5 million Armenians.

The problem is that the goverment of Ankara is stubborn and don't want to aknowledge the word "genocide" while meantime most genocide scholars and historians accept that there has been a genocide upon Armenians.Armenian Genocide is the second most studied after the Holocaust.

[Optimus]

The Roots of Genocide: The Ottoman Empire

The Armenian people have made their home in the Caucasus region of Eurasia for some 3,000 years. For some of that time, the kingdom of Armenia was an independent entity--at the beginning of the 4th century AD, for instance, it became the first nation in the world to make Christianity its official religion--but for the most part, control of the region shifted from one empire to another. During the 15th century, Armenia was absorbed into the mighty Ottoman Empire.

The Ottoman rulers, like most of their subjects, were Muslim. They permitted religious minorities like the Armenians to maintain some autonomy, but they also subjected Armenians, who they viewed as “infidels,” to unequal and unjust treatment. Christians had to pay higher taxes than Muslims, for example, and they had very few political and legal rights.

In spite of these obstacles, the Armenian community thrived under Ottoman rule. They tended to be better educated and wealthier than their Turkish neighbors, who in turn tended to resent their success. This resentment was compounded by suspicions that the Christian Armenians would be more loyal to Christian governments (that of the Russians, for example, who shared an unstable border with Turkey) than they were to the Ottoman caliphate.

These suspicions grew more acute as the Ottoman Empire crumbled. At the end of the 19th century, the despotic Turkish Sultan Abdul Hamid II--obsessed with loyalty above all, and infuriated by the nascent Armenian campaign to win basic civil rights--declared that he would solve the “Armenian question” once and for all. “I will soon settle those Armenians,” he told a reporter in 1890. “I will give them a box on the ear which will make them…relinquish their revolutionary ambitions.”

The First Armenian Massacre


Between 1894 and 1896, this “box on the ear” took the form of a state-sanctioned pogrom. In response to large scale protests by Armenians, Turkish military officials, soldiers and ordinary men sacked Armenian villages and cities and massacred their citizens. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians were murdered.

The Rise of the Young Turks


In 1908, a new government came to power in Turkey. A group of reformers who called themselves the “Young Turks” overthrew Sultan Abdul Hamid and established a more modern constitutional government. At first, the Armenians were hopeful that they would have an equal place in this new state, but they soon learned that what the nationalistic Young Turks wanted most of all was to “Turkify” the empire. According to this way of thinking, non-Turks--and especially Christian non-Turks--were a grave threat to the new state

World War I


In 1914, the Turks entered World War I on the side of Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. (At the same time, Ottoman religious authorities declared jihad, or holy war, against all Christians except their allies.) Military leaders began to argue that the Armenians were traitors: If they thought they could win independence if the Allies were victorious, this argument went, the Armenians would be eager to fight for the enemy. As the war intensified, Armenians organized volunteer battalions to help the Russian army fight against the Turks in the Caucasus region. These events, and general Turkish suspicion of the Armenian people, led the Turkish government to push for the “removal” of the Armenians from the war zones along the Eastern Front.

Genocide Begins


On April 24, 1915, the Armenian genocide began. That day, the Turkish government arrested and executed several hundred Armenian intellectuals. After that, ordinary Armenians were turned out of their homes and sent on death marches through the Mesopotamian desert without food or water. Frequently, the marchers were stripped naked and forced to walk under the scorching sun until they dropped dead. People who stopped to rest were shot.

At the same time, the Young Turks created a “Special Organization,” which in turn organized “killing squads” or “butcher battalions” to carry out, as one officer put it, “the liquidation of the Christian elements.” These killing squads were often made up of murderers and other ex-convicts. They drowned people in rivers, threw them off cliffs, crucified them and burned them alive. In short order, the Turkish countryside was littered with Armenian corpses.

Records show that during this “Turkification”campaign government squads also kidnapped children, converted them to Islam and gave them to Turkish families. In some places, they raped women and forced them to join Turkish “harems” or serve as slaves. Muslim families moved into the homes of deported Armenians and seized their property.

In 1922, when the genocide was over, there were just 388,000 Armenians remaining in the Ottoman Empire.

The Armenian Genocide Today


After the Ottomans surrendered in 1918, the leaders of the Young Turks fled to Germany, which promised not to prosecute them for the genocide. (However, a group of Armenian nationalists devised a plan, known as Operation Nemesis, to track down and assassinate the leaders of the genocide.) Ever since then, the Turkish government has denied that a genocide took place. The Armenians were an enemy force, they argue, and their slaughter was a necessary war measure. Today, Turkey is an important ally of the U.S. and other Western nations, and so their governments have likewise been reluctant to condemn the long-ago killings. In March 2010, a U.S. Congressional panel at last voted to recognize the genocide.

Source (http://www.history.com/topics/armenian-genocide)

[Hurrem sultana]

Most nations will never,just like serbs wont recognize their genocide against Bosniaks

[Optimus]

Most nations will never,just like serbs wont recognize their genocide against Bosniaks

It just shows their hypocrisy and twisted mindset.Those crimes should be aknowledged and focus on the future.Instead of doing this i have seen the contrary reaction from these countries.It is kinda sad.

[cmd_]

The Republic of Turkey was established after the Armenian genocide. This massacare was carried out by the Zionist crypto-Jewish organization called "Young Turks." Alexander Parvrus (Jew) who was a Marxist theoretician & member of the Jewish Bund, became the head financial & political advisor of the "Young Turks", who orchestrated the gruesome slaughter of 600,000 - 1,800,000 ethnic Armenians, stealing their land & wealth.

Parvus profited handsomely from an arms trade company he established with Turkey, supplying the very weapons for this genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6nmeh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Turks
http://www.jewishracism.com/Jewish_Genocide_Enlarged.pdf

I believe the killings took place but I don't think Turkey should take the blame for it.

[Anatolian Eagle]

No.

[Optimus]

No.

Elaborate on your choice please.Do you deny Armenian Genocide which is supported by mainstream scholars/historians?No sane person can refuse what happened in WWI,ofcourse if you switch to the conspiracy things just as your friend.

[Anatolian Eagle]

Elaborate on your choice please.Do you deny Armenian Genocide which is supported by mainstream scholars/historians?No sane person can refuse what happened in WWI,ofcourse if you switch to the conspiracy things just as your friend.

Who's my friend? I hardly hold any conspiracy. Can you please tell me how come Armenians were amongst most wealthy communities and never faced any discriminination till World War I? Why the hell did Ottoman authorities decided to exile many Armenians outside Turkish and Kurdish inhabited areas out of sudden, do you also think it was just because they were Armenians?

[Optimus]

Who's my friend? I hardly hold any conspiracy. Can you please tell me how come Armenians were amongst most wealthy communities and never faced any discriminination till World War I? Why the hell did Ottoman authorities decided to exile many Armenians outside Turkish and Kurdish inhabited areas out of sudden, do you also think it was just because they were Armenians?

Hypocrite!

This is what William Ramsay wrote about the condition of Armenians after having visited the Ottoman Empire in 1890:


Turkish rule...meant unutterable contempt...The Armenians (and Greeks) were dogs and pigs...to be spat upon, if their shadow darkened a Turk, to be outraged, to be the mats on which he wiped the mud from his feet. Conceive the inevitable result of centuries of slavery, of subjection to insult and scorn, centuries in which nothing belonged to the Armenian, neither his property, his house, his life, his person, nor his family, was sacred or safe from violence – capricious, unprovoked violence – to resist which by violence meant death.

The massacre was done by Young Turks the ideological creators of modern day Turkey.Armenians were overtaxed by Turks throughout their rule.

[Anatolian Eagle]

Hypocrite!

This is what William Ramsay wrote about the condition of Armenians after having visited the Ottoman Empire in 1890:



The massacre was done by Young Turks the ideological creators of modern day Turkey.Armenians were overtaxed by Turks throughout their rule.

OH RLY? Speaking about quotes from 1890s, then how about these, genius? Before accusing me of hypocrisy, you refrain yourself from hypocrisy.

"The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries is to stir disturbances, to get the Ottomans to react to violence, and thus get the foreign powers to intervene."
Sir Philip Currie, the British Ambassador in Istanbul, 28 March 1894 (British Blue Book, Nr.6 1894, p.57? Or p. 87)

"The Dashnaks and Hunchaks have terrorized their own countrymen, they have stirred up the Muslim people with their thefts and insanities, and have paralyzed all efforts made to carry out reforms; all the events that have taken place in Anatolia are the responsibility of the crimes committed by the Armenian revolutionary committees."
Williams, The British vice-consul, writing from Van. (March 4, 1896, British Blue Book, Nr. 8 1896, p.108.)

''I do not deny the existence and the active propagandism of Armenian revolutionarists. I do not even deny that, to some extent, the religious war has been stimulated by Armenian political agitators.''
Antranig Azhderian, "The Turk and the Land of Haig, or Turkey and Armenia - Desciptive, Historical, and Picturesque," The Mershong Company, New York, 1898, p. 364.

"When I say that the Armenian massacres were caused by the Armenian revolutionists, I tell the truth, and a very important one, but it is not the whole truth. It would be more correct to say that the presence of the revolutionists gave occasion and excuse for the massacres. That the Turks were looking for an excuse, no one can doubt who has traversed that country."
George Hughes Hepworth, "Through Armenia on Horseback" (NY, 1898, p. 339)

[Vasconcelos]

A little less hypocrisy (and hypocracy) and we'd all be much better..

[Anatolian Eagle]

"If Turks were (thieves) and (brigands) like (Europeans claim, the) Armenians (would not) have had their prosperous lives, which continued until 1896"
General Mayewsky, Ambassador to Erzurum and Van, commenting on massacres by Armenians in the late 19th Century, translated from the Russian language, "The Statistic of Van and Bitlis Provinces," Ottoman Military Printing Office (1914)

[Onur]

Armenians killed about 250.000 people in just few years before being deported out from eastern Anatolia. Some eastern Anatolian cities like Erzurum, Van, Sivas has been totally destroyed and razed to the ground as well as totally massacring it`s inhabitants with the help of Russian army. This is fully documented with the letters and telegrams of Armenian leaders writing like "There is not even a Turkish cattle remained alive in Erzurum, let alone people". Thats exactly why Armenians never desires to go to the war crimes court in Hague because we can easily open the ugly chapters in their history. So, instead they prefer the likes of Sarkozy in France to handle this issue in parliaments with deputies who are totally ignorant to the real history.

Armenian deportation from Anatolia was totally justified. If same thing would happen today, i wouldn't even wait for the death of 250.000 Turks to deport them out.

Turkey will not recognize anything `till Armenians recognizes the massacre of 250.000 Turks and Kurds committed by them during a period of a year `till 1915. There will be no peace between Armenia and Turkey before the Armenian leaders comes to eastern Anatolia and see the mass graves of 100s of Turkish civilians burned alive by their armed gangs.

[Optimus]

This is just exposure of Turkish nationalist mindset.They are one of the biggest narcissoids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism) .They love themself too much and think they are the best,they view Europeans with highly negative stance.

Just look what they are doing to Armenians and Kurds now.

They describe Kurds as subhuman terrorists with all their force while they play a game that Armenians should apologize firstly.Go figure it.

[Anatolian Eagle]

This is just exposure of Turkish nationalist mindset.They are one of the biggest narcissoids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism) .They love themself too much and think they are the best,they view Europeans with highly negative stance.

Oh dear, cry me a river :rotfl:

[Onur]

Just look what they are doing to Armenians and Kurds now.

They describe Kurds as subhuman terrorists with all their force while they play a game that Armenians should apologize firstly.Go figure it.
So what? I should have hide the fact that Armenians also massacred Kurds during WW-1 just because of our current problems with the Kurds? Why would i do that? Yes, the current PKK terrorist Kurds are subhumans but this doesn't change the fact that their ancestors has been massacred by the Armenians.

Armenians started to massacre Turks and Kurds at first. They did that in the name of creating their mythical Armenian kingdom. They failed to do so and rightfully deported out afterwards.

Now, who should apologize who? Should we apologize them for preventing the creation of Armenian kingdom inside Turkey? No, i will never apologize for that.

Around 100.000 Armenians living in Turkey today but there was more than 2 million indigenous Azerbaijani Turks living in today`s Armenia before 1920s. Today, there is not even single Azeri in Armenia. Where are they, what happened to millions of Azerbaijanis in there?

[Optimus]

Oh dear, cry me a river :rotfl:

hehe shifting as always,couple of facts are not crying,but your staunch narcissism don't let you aknowledge.Turkish diaspora are known as the biggest whinners in Western Europe.


So what? I should have hide the fact that Armenians also massacred Kurds during WW-1 just because of our current problems with the Kurds? Why would i do that? Yes, the current PKK terrorist Kurds are subhumans but this doesn't change the fact that their ancestors has been massacred by the Armenians.

Armenians started to massacre Turks and Kurds at first. They did that in the name of creating their mythical Armenian kingdom. They failed to do so and rightfully deported out afterwards.

Now, who should apologize who? Should we apologize them for preventing the creation of Armenian kingdom inside Turkey? No, i will never apologize for that.

Around 100.000 Armenians living in Turkey today but there was more than 2 million indigenous Azerbaijani Turks living in today`s Armenia before 1920s. Today, there is not even single Azeri in Armenia. Where are they, what happened to millions of Azerbaijanis in there?

Armenians are very ancient people living in East-Anatolia,while since when the ethnonym Turk came in use?How come Armenians want to create a state inside Turkey when you are just a bunch of invaders yourself and have no historical basis in comparison with Armenian pretensions.

And i sense the double hypocrisy here,i bet that you don't give a fuck about Kurds at all but now since the situation calls for it you put the killing of Kurds as your pretext.Turkish goverment has done alot of atrocities against Kurdish population and putting that guilt to the PKK.

Btw do you have any reliable unbiased source for your claim Armenians massacring Kurds/Turks before that.

Also Azeris are just Turkic speaking Iranians and they have nothing to do with areas that are populated by Armenians.

[Onur]

Btw do you have any reliable unbiased source for your claim Armenians massacring Kurds/Turks before that.
I cant be arsed to present sources to you because i know that it wont change anything for you. If you are curious, then search for yourself. I just briefly explained the Turkey`s stance to you. If you don't like that, then fine by me but i really wondered why a Macedonian interesting with Armenian issue that much? What for? Whats got to do with you while you clearly have no idea what happened in Anatolia during WW-1? Are you an Armenian imposter or something?


Also Azeris are just Turkic speaking Iranians and they have nothing to do with areas that are populated by Armenians.
Azeris are iranic? According to whom? Then why they are speaking Turkish for 1000s of years? show me a proof of their Iranian speaking ancestry. And whats this got to do with the fact that the extermination of two million Azerbaijani people in today`s Armenia after 1920s? Regardless of Iranians or Turks, they have been exterminated and expelled out from there. That was my point.

And who says that the present day Armenians are same as the Armenians of 2000 years ago? How you know?

[Optimus]

I cant be arsed to present sources to you because i know that it wont change anything for you. If you are curious, then search for yourself. I just briefly explained the Turkey`s stance to you. If you don't like that, then fine by me but i really wondered why a Macedonian interesting with Armenian issue that much? What for? Whats got to do with you while you clearly have no idea what happened in Anatolia during WW-1? Are you an Armenian imposter or something?

You are just out of arguments and that is why you accuse me of being Armenian.I have writen in Macedonian with members here.So you fail.

I just asked out of curiosity.It seems to be a common theme talking about this in internet.And you have no reliable sources regarding that what i have asked for.You have conflicting writing.Sorry,but you need to recognize the unjustice your ancestors have made to Armenian people.



Azeris are iranic? According to whom? Then why they are speaking Turkish for 1000s of years? show me a proof of their Iranian speaking ancestry. And whats this got to do with the fact that the extermination of two million Azerbaijani people in today`s Armenia after 1920s? Regardless of Iranians or Turks, they have been exterminated and expelled out from there.

And who says that the present day Armenians are same as the Armenians of 2000 years ago? How you know?

Azeris are Turkic speaking Iranians,every sane person knows that.Every scholar supports that.It seems that only your mindset believes what you want to.

Armenians are native there where they belong.Their DNA speaks about this.Your argument is flawed.Try it harded.:coffee:

[Pecheneg]

Optimus is probably an armenian imposter
Hundreds of thousands of Turks and Kurds killed in eastern anatolia by armenians with the help of their russian masters.

and about Azeris; they were Turkish-speakers and Turkic rulers of iran for last 1000 years you idiot.

[SKYNET]

everywhere in the world were a many genocides, many than in Armenia. So what?

[Optimus]

Optimus is probably an armenian imposter
Hundreds of thousands of Turks and Kurds killed in eastern anatolia by armenians with the help of their russian masters.


That is all you can do throwing ad-hominems of being an imposter because you cannot refute arguments.That is how your mindset works.If someone criticizes you automatically he is either Kurdish or Armenian imposter.I have spoken in Macedonian to members here so no i am not Armenian imposter dumbo.

I have posted a valid question which is supported by mainstraim scholars and only refuted by your people.

[Queen B]

I think it is time for Republic of Turkey to see forward and recognize the systematic killings of Armenian population during the WWI.

They won't because they think that genociding people is normal :coffee:
They didn't do it only against Armenians, but also again Pontic Greeks.

[Vasconcelos]

everywhere in the world were a many genocides, many than in Armenia. So what?

What?

[Linet]

What?

Surprised? :rolleyes:
...He is an American...they half killed half the planet for its energy resources..what did you expect...

[SKYNET]

what the hell is going on here? It is my opinion about

[Pecheneg]

That is all you can do throwing ad-hominems of being an imposter because you cannot refute arguments.That is how your mindset works.If someone criticizes you automatically he is either Kurdish or Armenian imposter.I have spoke in Macedonian to members here so no i am not Armenian imposter dumbo.
We ruled them for 1000 years and we did nothing to them until 20th century. so, what happened in 20th century? You know nothing about 1915 armenian-Turkish conflict so you better shut up newbie idiot! Here, some civilians numbers (massacred by armenians with the help of russians)

1910 Muş (10 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
21 February 1914 Kars-Ardahan (30 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Van (44 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Van (150 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Bitlis (16 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Muş (80 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Bitlis-Hizan (113 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1915 Van (5 thousand 200 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
February 1915 Haskay (200 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
February 1915 Dutak (3 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
April 1915 Bitlis (29 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
April 1915 Muradiye (10 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
April 1915 Van (120 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
May 1915 Van (20 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
July 1915 Muş-Akçan (19 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
August 1915 Müküs (126 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 May 1915 Bitlis (40 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 May 1915 Bitlis (123 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
15 January 1916 Terme (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1 April 1916 Van-Reşadiye (15 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
May 1916 Muş (500 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 May 1916 Van-Tatvan(thousand 600 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 May 1916 Bitlis (10 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 May 1916 Pasinler (2 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 May 1916 Tercan (563 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 May 1916 Van (44 thousand 233 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 May 1916 Malazgirt (20 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 May 1916 Bitlis (12 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Köprüköy-Van (200 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (15 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (8 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (8 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (80 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1916 Van (15 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
23 May 1916 Of (5 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
23 May 1916 Trabzon (2 thousand 86 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
23 May 1916 Van (3 yüz civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
25 May 1916 Bayezid (14 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
June 1916 Van-Abbasağa (14 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
June 1916 Edremid-Vastan (15 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 June 1916 Şatak-Serir (45 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 June 1916 Şatak (thousand 150 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
7 June 1916 Müküs-Serhan (121 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
14 August 1916 Bitlis (311 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1919 Sarıkamış (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1919 Tiksin-Ağadeve (5 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1919 Nahçivan (4 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 January 1919 Zaruşat (86 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
21 January 1919 Kilis (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 January 1919 Antep (1 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
25 January 1919 Kars (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
26 February 1919 Adana-Pozantı (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
18 May 1919 Osmaniye (1 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
13 June 1919 Pasinler (3 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
3 June 1919 Iğdır (8 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
July 1919 Sarıkamış (803 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
July 1919 Kurudere (8 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
July 1919 Sarıkamış (695 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
4 July 1919 Akçakale (180 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
5 July 1919 Kağızman (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
7 July 1919 Kars-Göle (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 July 1919 Mescitli (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
8 July 1919 Gülyantepe (10 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 July 1919 Kağızman (6 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 July 1919 Kurudere (8 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 July 1919 Mescitli (20 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
19 July 1919 Bulaklı (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
19 July 1919 Pasinler (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
24 July 1919 Kars-Kağızman (9 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
August 1919 Muhtelif köyler (2 thousand 502 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
15 August 1919 Erzurum (153 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
15 August 1919 Erzurum (426 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
September 1919 Allahüekber (3 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 September 1919 Ãœnye (12 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
14 September 1919 Sarıkamış (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
November 1919 Adana (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
11 November 1919 Maraş (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 November 1919 Ulukışla (7 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
7 December 1919 Adana (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Göle (600 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Kars (3 thousand 945 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Haramivartan (138 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Nahçivan (64 thousand 408 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1920 Nahçivan (5 thousand 307 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
February 1920 Kars civarı (561 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1 February 1920 Zaruşat (2 thousand 150 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
2 February 1920 Şuregel (thousand 150 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
10 February 1920 Çıldır (100 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
28 February 1920 Pozantı (40 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 March 1920 Zaruşat (400 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
9 March 1920 Zaruşat (120 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
16 March 1920 Kağızman (720 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 March 1920 Şuregel-Zaruşat (2 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 April 1920 Gümrü (500 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
28 April 1920 Kars (2 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
5 May 1920 Kars (thousand 774 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
22 May 1920 Kars (10 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
2 July 1920 Kars-Erzurum (408 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
2 July 1920 Zengebasar (thousand 500 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
27 July 1920 Erzurum (69 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
May 1920 Kars-Erzurum (27 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
August 1920 Oltu (650 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
August 1920 Kars-Erzurum (18 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
15 October 1920 Bayburt (thousand 387 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
20 October 1920 Göle (100 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
17 October 1920 Pasinler (9 thousand 287 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
18 October 1920 Tortum (3 thousand 700 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
19 October 1920 Erzurum (8 thousand 439 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
26 October 1920 Kars civarı (10 thousand 693)
October 1920 Aşkale (889 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1 December 1920 Kosor (69 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
3 December 1920 Göle (508 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
4 December 1920 Kosor (122 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
4 December 1920 Kars-Zeytun (28 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
4 December 1920 Sarıkamış (thousand 975 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
6 December 1920 Göle (194 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
7 December 1920 Kars-Digor (14 thousand 620 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
14 December 1920 Sarıkamış (5 thousand 337 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
29 November 1920 Zaruşat (thousand 26 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
December 1920 Erivan (192 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Nahçivan (12 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Bayburt (580 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Arpaçay (148 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Karakilise (6 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1921 Karakilise ( 6 thousand civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
February 1921 Zenibasar (18 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
21 November 1921 Pasinler (53 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
21 November 1921 Erzurum (thousand 215 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1918 Hınıs (870 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
1918 Tercan (580 civilian turks killed by armenian militia)
March 1922 Maraş (4 civilian turks killed by armenian militia).

We will never recognize that shit! This is our answer, got it?

[Hess]

Turks have a long history of genocide and subjugation against Europeans, Bulgarians and Pontic Greeks being two prime examples.

[Pecheneg]

armenians killed hundreds of thousands of Turks in eastern anatolia&caucaus, why wasn't that a genocide?

thousands of civilian Turks killed in greece by greeks, why wasn't that genocide?

russians killed hundreds of thousands of central asian Turks (Kazakh ,Turkmen, Kyrgyz, Uzbek etc) why wasn't that genocide?

russians killed hundreds of thousands of muslim northern caucasians and (circassian, chechens, lezgin, karachay, balkar, Nogai) and Crimean Tatars why wasn't that genocide?

americans killed hundreds of thousands of vietnamese, iraqi, afghan civilians, why wasn't that genocide?

hiroshima and nagasaki, why wasn't that genocide?

native americans, where are they??

hundreds of thousands of african slaves died in ships during the slave trade, why wasn't that genocide?

hundreds of thousands of south asian & indians killed by british and other european colonizers, why wasn't that genocide?

40-60 million people died in WW-2 and most of them were civilians, why wasn't that genocide?

fuck you and your hypocrisy!

[Linet]

thousands of civilian Turks killed in greece by greeks, why wasn't that genocide?


Da what? :blink:
...i suppose that was a joke? :eyes

[Pecheneg]

Da what? :blink:
...i suppose that was a joke? :eyes

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52515
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52559

[Queen B]

Da what? :blink:
...i suppose that was a joke? :eyes

He must be mistaken and wanted to say about the Pontic Greek genocide, the Chios Massacre (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52624) and the Pogrom of 55 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52530)

[Linet]

He must be mistaken and wanted to say about the Pontic Greek genocide, the Chios Massacre (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52624) and the Pogrom of 55 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52530)

Dand....whats wroing with you? :confused:
You forgot 1922 and 1974 :icon_ask:....are you getting old :whistle:? ... :silly000:

[Optimus]

We ruled them for 1000 years and we did nothing to them until 20th century. so, what happened in 20th century? You know nothing about 1915 armenian-Turkish conflict so you better shut up newbie idiot! Here, some civilians numbers (massacred by armenians with the help of russians)


You did nothing to them until your ideological predecessors the Young Turks lay down to todays Turkish Republic.Your argument of Armenian massacre against Turkish/Kurdish civilians with the help of Russians is flawless.Quote reliable sources please.


We will never recognize that shit! This is our answer, got it?

You call a genocide made upon 1-1.5 million people "shit".It says something of your chauvinistic mindset.My supposition of Turkish narcissoism is quite right.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Doesn't Turkey have laws against talking about the Armenian Genocide, and criticising Ataturk?

Nothing should be off-limits, and if it is, it begins to smell, like the laws against Holocaust denial / revisionism.

What do the Turkish have to lose by admiting that Armenians had their population systematically reduced by such planned methods? Perhaps the Armenians waged a war of conquest, without planning actual genocide?

Just admit it, and don't ban discussion of it. :(


gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Noun:
The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

[Queen B]

Dand....whats wroing with you? :confused:
You forgot 1922 and 1974 :icon_ask:....are you getting old :whistle:? ... :silly000:

I don't forget, noone does :coffee:

[Pecheneg]

Doesn't Turkey have laws against talking about the Armenian Genocide, and criticising Ataturk?

Nothing should be off-limits, and if it is, it begins to smell, like the laws against Holocaust denial / revisionism.

What do the Turkish have to lose by admiting that Armenians had their population systematically reduced in such as way? Perhaps the Armenians waged a war of conquest, without planning actual genocide?

Just admit it, and don't ban discussion of it. :(
It was a deportation and most armenians died from starvation&illness.
armenians, also killed hundreds of thousands of Turks and Kurds in caucasus-east anatolia.
Turks lost 3 million people in ww1 and most of them were civilians!
stupid armenians tried to create greater armenia, killed hundreds of thousands of Turks and eventually they got what they deserved !

[Linet]

It was a deportation and most armenians died from starvation&illness.
armenians, also killed hundreds of thousands of Turks and Kurds in caucasus-east anatolia.
Turks lost 3 million people in ww1 and most of them were civilians!

The silly question of the day :eyes
....If as you said...Armenians were the richest :wof: among the population...how could they die out of starvation and illness? :chin:

[Pecheneg]

The silly question of the day :eyes
....If as you said...Armenians were the richest :wof: among the population...how could they die out of starvation and illness? :chin:
it is a very well known fact, it was a deportation, we didn't gas them!

[Optimus]

1-1.5 million MY ASS! you stupid faggot, you believe every fucking thing you read on internet, don't you?

Hold your tongue shaman.You cannot debate in civil manner which is typical for your kind.You have no single arguments that is why you resort in ad-hominems to skip off the discussion.

Every single reliable scholar supports the genocide and now you come and say me you believe in every internet article?

Be rational you arrogant idiot.

[Pecheneg]

Hold your tongue shaman.You cannot debate with armenian asslicker like me.
Every single armenian&pro-armenian scholar supports the genocide and now you come and say me you believe in every internet article? Be stupid and submit imperialism.

F-i-x-e-d.

[Linet]

it is a very well known fact, it was a deportation, we didn't gas them!

Ok deportation :wink...then why didnt they get money and their staff with them? they said..."Yo guys...lets take nothing :desert:...lets leave our money and fortune to the Turks :Cash:...lets let our kids die :goodnight:....lets see who off us will survive :zombie00:....see you at the other side :rip:"

[Optimus]

Armenian Genocide is refused only by Turkish pseudo-intellectual kitchens.I must support my blind nationalism.I know you are not Armenian but i have no arguments therefore i throw ad-hominems upon you that you are Armenian imposter.

I am one arrogant bastard who have taken no moral courses in childhood.My father was always arrogant and beating my mother that is why i act like a enraged monkey in every thread.


Refixed.;)

[Linet]

F-i-x-e-d.

You have dirty tongue :shocked:...you know :eusa_eh:

[Gospodine]

The Ottoman Empire's long history of brutal mistreatment of ethnic minorities (particularly Orthodox Christians) hardly begins at the Armenian Genocide but that was the most concerted and premeditated act of genocide.

The Greek/Pontic Genocide, the Kurdish Genocide, the Assyrian Genocide, the Hamidian Massacres (which pre-date the Armenian Genocide by 20 years), the Adana Massacre (predates it by 6 years), the Devshirme system of forced conversion and enslavement of Christian boys from the Balkans/Caucasus to staff the Janissary Corps as well as the suppression of the 1876 Bulgarian Uprising, all the way to the more recent Istanbul Riots of 1955 that forced the tiny remaining Greek minority of Istanbul out for good, the invasion of Cyprus and subsequent war crimes committed; Ottoman and Turkish history has no shortage of violently suppressing any nationalistic/abolitionist sentiments. They are continuing well into the modern era with the suppression of the Kurdish Independence movement and the war against the PKK (Kurdistan Worker's Party).

I mean for god's sake there's a law in Turkey against "Insulting Turkishness" and journalists who actively criticize the Turkish position on the Armenian Genocide have a convenient habit of winding up dead, i.e. Hrant Dink and these guys: http://cpj.org/killed/europe/turkey/

Granted ethnic separatism is what tore the Ottoman Empire apart and some of the ethnic/nationalist elements in the late 1800's and early 1900's were serious threats to Ottoman military supremacy, even to the Sultan himself (Abdul Hamid II) who was the victim of an assassination attempt in 1905 organized by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation.
The Armenians were seen as proxies of the Russians and European powers during WWI, but they were hardly military a viable threat against Ottoman sovereignty in the Caucasus, which had long since receded to Russia at the end of the Russo-Turkish Wars.

Even if the Armenians constituted a serious threat, attempting to wipe them out or force them out of the Caucasus had no strategic merit, it was sheer retribution by The Young Turks who were fervent Pan-Turkic nutjobs and simply wanted to grab as much land as they possibly could after their devastating loss in the First Balkan War (1912-1913) where they conceded 85% of their European territory.

Pan-Turkism is a laughable concept that has no historical, cultural or genetic basis but unfortunately it is very seriously endorsed by the upper echelons of Turkish government who see Azerbaijan, Turkic minorities of the Caucasus and Central Asia as bastions of Turkish nationalism and spend millions of dollars in beaming all sorts of propaganda to these people and expanding the influence of extremist Pan-Turkic organisations like "The Grey Wolves". Mehmet Ali Agca, Pope John Paul II's would-be assassin was a member.

[Hurrem sultana]

The Ottoman Empire's long history of brutal mistreatment of ethnic minorities (particularly Orthodox Christians) hardly begins at the Armenian Genocide but that was the most concerted and premeditated act of genocide.

The Greek/Pontic Genocide, the Kurdish Genocide, the Assyrian Genocide, the Hamidian Massacres (which pre-date the Armenian Genocide by 20 years), the Adana Massacre (predates it by 6 years), the Devshirme system of forced conversion and enslavement of Christian boys from the Balkans/Caucasus to staff the Janissary Corps as well as the suppression of the 1876 Bulgarian Uprising, all the way to the more recent Istanbul Riots of 1955 that forced the tiny remaining Greek minority of Istanbul out for good, the invasion of Cyprus and subsequent war crimes committed; Ottoman and Turkish history has no shortage of violently suppressing any nationalistic/abolitionist sentiments. They are continuing well into the modern era with the suppression of the Kurdish Independence movememnt and the war against the PKK (Kurdistan Worker's Party).


Yet the Balkans are 95% christian,ah those evil ottomans :rolleyes:

[Linet]

Bosnian vs Bosnian :blink:
...Someone pass me the pop corn....:D

[Pecheneg]

Ok deportation :wink...then why didnt they get money and their staff with them? they said..."Yo guys...lets take nothing :desert:...lets leave our money and fortune to the Turks :Cash:...lets let our kids die :goodnight:....lets see who off us will survive :zombie00:....see you at the other side :rip:"

because we were at war with too many enemies, our lands were invaded, our people were deported from caucasus-crimea-balkans, we had lost hundreds of thousands of our sons in battlefields! our homeland was divided ! armenians should be thankful because we didn't kill all these backstabbers!

[Linet]

Yet the Balkans are 95% christian,ah those evil ottomans :rolleyes:

Bosn, thats irrelevant....he give you dates and facts and you throw a random sophistry....naughty naughty naughty :eyes

[Onur]

The silly question of the day :eyes
....If as you said...Armenians were the richest :wof: among the population...how could they die out of starvation and illness? :chin:
dear! Linet, i am afraid you don't know anything about this issue.

There was two type of Armenians in Ottoman empire;
The ones in Istanbul, Izmir and other big cities. They were fully involved in Ottoman politics, rich landowners, artisans and tradesmen. They also took the control of central bank of the empire from Jews after 1900.

The second type was the Armenians who were living in southeastern Anatolia, together with the Kurds and Turks. They were the ones who formed armed gangs with the support from Russia and France. They killed the local Kurdish and Turkish people in there.

While the southeastern Anatolia was fully under the terror of these armed bandits, the Armenians in the west didn't involve to this kind of stuff. While the British empire started their campaign in Canakkale (Gallipoli), Armenians in the east started major massacres upon civilians at the same time. In the end, Ottoman authorities got fed up with them after loosing ~250.000 civilians and they decided to expel out all the Armenians from there but the Armenians of Istanbul has been exempted from this expulsion because they didn't involve any crimes. Already, when Ottoman empire decided to expel the Armenians of the east, our foreign minister was an ethnic Armenian from Istanbul.

The children of these Armenians in the west, still living in Turkey today.


I am telling you, the Ottoman authorities was so naive and stupid in my terms. I would never wait for them to kill ~250.000 civilians during WW-1, while our army was busy in stupid middle-east. I would never delay deportation of the Armenian traitors while we were losing 250.000 more young people in Gallipoli. I would deport them right at the start of the WW-1 because it was so obvious that Armenians of the east was going to form an alliance with our enemy Russia to backstab us in WW-1. They were just peons of Russia in WW-1 and today, Armenia is still a peon of Russia after 100 years.

[StonyArabia]

russians killed hundreds of thousands of muslim northern caucasians and (circassian, chechens, lezgin, karachay, balkar, Nogai) and Crimean Tatars why wasn't that genocide?

The largest genocide of the 19th century was the Circassian genocide. Although it effected mostly the Adyghe and related kin folks, but other nearby Caucasian tribes suffered the same fate. Circassia was reduced to utter ashes by the Russian and Ukrainian Cossacks who brutalized the innocent pagan and nominal Muslim Circassian tribes. Men were slaughtered in the most ruthless manner. Women were taken into slavery, and they were forced out of their homes, expelled and not to return. The majority choose to settle in Anatolia and the Levant. There lands was now allowed to settle by Russian, Ukrainian colonists alongside Ossets and others. Of course this is only but one of the forgotten chapters of history. Sochi is where the mass graves of Circassian women and children are buried, and hence the protest against the olympic games there.

http://s11.postimage.org/po7q22zg3/Circassianpro.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
upload images (http://postimage.org/)


http://s14.postimage.org/juty9010x/sochiland.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
picture hosting (http://postimage.org/)



The massacre of the Circassians, a forgotten people, serves as the subject of Stephen D. Shenfield’s essay. The Circassians were forced to resettle after the tsarist conquest of their territory. Their homeland rested in the northwestern Caucasus and on the northeastern shore of the Black Sea--along the southern border of the Russian empire. Before the Russian invasion, Circassia possessed two million people and an area of 55,663 square kilometers.They fought against Russian invasions from 1763-1864 and ultimately were defeated, with many Circassians being deported to Turkey. The decision to deport the Circassians came in 1860; the Russians invaded from the north, accompanied by mobile columns of riflemen and Cossack cavalry; four thousand Circassian families left for Turkey. In 1862, Russian soldiers burned Circassian villages and trampled the crops; those who fled died in the forests and mountains of hunger and exposure. The Russian General Babich took his soldiers south, burning Circassian villages along the way. In May 1864, the remaining Circassians bonded together in a frenzied battle and emerged triumphant over the Russian invaders; the victory, however, proved to be short-lived because the Russians returned with more artillery and soundly defeated the Circassian men and women; dissatisfied by only killing the Circassian adults, the triumphant Russian soldiers sought out the children and shot cannon shells at them.


The Circassians fought against Russian conquest for over a century, from 1763 to 1864 –longer than any other people of the Caucasus, even the Chechens. Their final defeat in the
1860s led to massacre and forced deportation, mainly across the Black Sea to Turkey, in the
course of which a large proportion of them perished.[/B]


In Chechnya and Daghestan [the central and eastern parts of the northern Caucasus] the Russians were satisfied
with the natives’ submission, but on the Black Sea coast they intended to gain possession of the wide and fertile
Circassian lands to provide for a part of the great wave of Russian peasant migration resulting from
emancipation of the serfs in 1861. Every year Cossacks and peasant migrants from central Russia were
penetrating farther and farther up the affluents of the [Rivers] Kuban, Laba, Belaya and Urup. These new
villages and stanitsy [Cossack settlements] were frequently raided by the Circassians who resented the Russian
settlement of their tribal lands.








fuck you and your hypocrisy!

Can't disagree there!!

[Pecheneg]

Refixed.;)

i don't give a fuck anymore because you are butthurt anti-Turkish faggot and you couldn't even reply my previous posts about real genocides!

[Linet]

dear :fwhat:? Deeeear :shocked:? Where is your love? Your passion? You break my heart :cry2....call me in sweeter way...:eyes...i need affection :puppy_dp:

....well baby :baby2000:...still numbers are numbers...and we talk about women and children...where they also in gangs? :icon_ask:

[Pecheneg]

The largest genocide of the 19th century was the Circassian genocide.
CW, it can't be genocide, because the victims were muslim Northern Caucasians like Circassians, Karachays, Nogais, Tatars...

[Gospodine]

Yet the Balkans are 95% christian,ah those evil ottomans :rolleyes:

What does that have to do with the fact that the Ottoman Empire did not elevate Christians to the same social status as Muslims?

You couldn't own land, you couldn't study/work/own property/firearms, marry legally or really become any sort of functioning member of society.
You had to pay taxes, you had your sons taken from you and sent into the military academies or harems for daughters, etc.

You do realize Kurds and Assyrians are also Muslims and have been victims of Ottoman genocide as well?

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Surprised? :rolleyes:
...He is an American...they half killed half the planet for its energy resources..what did you expect...

why did Mayflower pilgrims migrated to Amerika in the first place?
Oh that was religious genoside against protestants..
Do not even mention Bloody Mary's killing one million Protestants

..and inquisitions ..don't forget them..total bloodbath

there is also Algerians murdered by French
Azteks murdered by Spanish

and three times in our history Jews either massacred or exiled by Europaeans and fled to Turkic lands..one to Khazars Land ,Second ,During Ottoman era and thirdly from Nazi Germany ..

European history is full of mass murders to their own people and other races

we are not europeans ,that's the main reason of trollfest here..

[StonyArabia]

CW, it can't be genocide, because the victims were muslim Northern Caucasians like Circassians, Karachays, Nogais, Tatars...

Indeed, everyone knows that Peçenek.

[Onur]

The largest genocide of the 19th century was the Circassian genocide.
Completely agreed. Also not only the Circassians, Russians also deported millions of Turkic people like Tatars to Siberia, to their certain death.

It`s been calculated that the number of indigenous central Asians, Eurasians died by the hands of Russians between 1860-1950 is no less than 25 million.

[Linet]

why did Mayflower pilgrims migrated to Amerika in the first place?
Oh that was religious genoside against protestants..
Do not even mention Bloody Mary's killing one million Protestants

..and inquisitions ..don't forget them..total bloodbath

there is also Algerians murdered by French
Azteks murdered by Spanish

and three times in our history Jews either massacred or exiled by Europaeans and fled to Turkic lands..one to Khazars Land ,Second ,During Ottoman era and thirdly from Nazi Germany ..

European history is full of mass murders to their own people and other races

we are not europeans ,that's the main reason of trollfest here..

Yeah i agreee to all...:thumb001:
...They are all 100% true....but that doesnt change the fact that Armenians were brutaly slaughtered....2 wrongs doesnt make 1 right....

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Yeah i agreee to all...:thumb001:
...They are all 100% true....but that doesnt change the fact that Armenians were brutaly slaughtered....2 wrongs doesnt make 1 right....
Do you know Ottoman Armenians and Ottoman Turks were same level citizens

And why on earth after hundreds of years Armenians had catolic and protestant sects ?
French and American against Russian, played the game over Armenians...
same as they do now over Kurds..use these nations against us..

who brought these sects to Ottoman Armenians and made them enemies ,carried European Christian sect crises to Ottoman lands? And why did they created two ,three opponent hostile communities .. Who stirred them ,divided them?
i love those imperialist western countries playing innocent..

even first novel in Turkish was written by Ottoman Armenian Hovseb Vartanyan


Akabi's Story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vartan_Pasha

The novel relates an impossible love story between two young people issued from different communities which cultivate hostility between each other, either latent or evident, in the true fashion of Romeo and Juliet and many other stories produced by different cultures throughout the ages. Akabi is a daughter of Gregorian Armenians, and Hagop, her reciprocated lover, is a Catholic. Despite being an early novel and having been written by a male writer, Akabi character is the more prominent of the two principal heroes. Furthermore, although a Catholic himself, Vartan Pasha is totally impartial in his observations on the behavior of the characters from the two communities, advantaging neither one nor the other, and not shying away from criticizing both. The novel is rich in its number of secondary characters and in short but astute depictions of these. Nevertheless, although social issues are briefly or indirectly touched upon, the definite central theme of the novel is love. And love has a number of rules independent of the social environment from which it rose. The loved one dominates the relationship and the lover has to suffer a lot and make many efforts to reach his beloved, and this well after the brief initial period of happiness till the tragic end.

[Anatolian Eagle]

hehe shifting as always,couple of facts are not crying,but your staunch narcissism don't let you aknowledge.Turkish diaspora are known as the biggest whinners in Western Europe.

I've shown you the facts, which you said nothing about but ignored, now you come around question my knowledge accusing Turks of narcissism. Ironically the quotes I've given you weren't even from Turks, but Europeans including an Armenian. And the biggest whiners in Europe are the Armenian diaspora, they can cleanse balls of any European politican just to get their so-called "genocide" recognized politically without historical knowledge. Go figure :thumb001:

[Optimus]

i don't give a fuck anymore because you are butthurt anti-Turkish faggot and you couldn't even reply my previous posts about real genocides!

Your mom and dady are probably cousins which can explain why you are such a inbreed retard and constantly use ad-hominems.



I've shown you the facts, which you said nothing about but ignored, now you come around question my knowledge accusing Turks of narcissism. Ironically the quotes I've given you weren't even from Turks, but Europeans including an Armenian. And the biggest whiners in Europe are the Armenian diaspora, they can cleanse balls of any European politican just to get their so-called "genocide" recognized politically without historical knowledge. Go figure :thumb001:

That is irrelevant,i am saying you there was a systematic killing of Armenian people and recognized by mainstream scholars while you and your companions refuse that,typical for your kind i must say.I rest my case here.Have a good sleep kido.

[Incal]

What does that have to do with the fact that the Ottoman Empire did not elevate Christians to the same social status as Muslims?

You couldn't own land, you couldn't study/work/own property/firearms, marry legally or really become any sort of functioning member of society.
You had to pay taxes, you had your sons taken from you and sent into the military academies or harems for daughters, etc.

You do realize Kurds and Assyrians are also Muslims and have been victims of Ottoman genocide as well?

Finally, a decent Bosnian member on this forum!

[Gospodine]

Finally, a decent Bosnian member on this forum!

It's annoying that most Bosnians will side with Turkey just out of principle, simply due to our historical relationship with our Christian neighbors.

You can't have it both ways. You can't demand people recognize Srebrenica and other Yugoslav war massacres as acts of genocide but then turn a blind eye to Armenia; which was Srebrenica multiplied by a factor of 1,000.

It's also ironic that both Serbia and Turkey are very strong historical revisionists that deny their state's participation in any war crimes but demand that the other recognize either Armenia or Srebrenica as an act of genocide.

[Hayalet]

You couldn't own land, you couldn't study/work/own property/firearms, marry legally or really become any sort of functioning member of society.
Christians in the Ottoman Empire had the right to everything you listed there.


You had to pay taxes, you had your sons taken from you and sent into the military academies or harems for daughters, etc.
Paying tax was a universal thing last time I checked. As for the devshirme practice, it was applied to an extremely limited number of individuals throughout the centuries.


You do realize Kurds and Assyrians are also Muslims and have been victims of Ottoman genocide as well?
Assyrians are and were Christians, whereas an Ottoman genocide of Kurds sounds like a figment of your imagination.

[Hurrem sultana]

What does that have to do with the fact that the Ottoman Empire did not elevate Christians to the same social status as Muslims?

You couldn't own land, you couldn't study/work/own property/firearms, marry legally or really become any sort of functioning member of society.
You had to pay taxes, you had your sons taken from you and sent into the military academies or harems for daughters, etc.

You do realize Kurds and Assyrians are also Muslims and have been victims of Ottoman genocide as well?

The ottoman empire was not any worse than any other country or empire would have been at that time.I dare to say it was a bit better even,,since at least they did not kill you if you did not convert to islam!! The ahdnama of sultan Fatih in Bosnia is one example of it! it speaks for it self....for those times,it is like a human rights right guarantee


It is not true that Christians could not study,lol.And the paying taxes..well it is part of islam,and it certainly more humane than "convert or die or move"

[Methmatician]

The ottoman empire was not any worse than any other country or empire would have been at that time.

The Polish(Kingdom)-Lithuanian commonwealth and French Empire were better in terms of human rights.

[Gospodine]

The ottoman empire was not any worse than any other country or empire would have been at that time.I dare to say it was a bit better even,,since at least they did not kill you if you did not convert to islam!!

You are right in that case. Compared to the Arab Caliphates and even Medieval Europe the Ottomans were leagues ahead when it came to ethnic harmony, but when the Empire began to fragment they clamped down on ethnic minorities brutally in an attempt to squash any nationalist/independence movements.

Most of the massacres occurred towards the end of the Empire's reign.


whereas an Ottoman genocide of Kurds sounds like a figment of your imagination.

Yeah I forget Kurds have a great time in Turkey.

Let's not derail.

[Hurrem sultana]

Might be Medvjed,but it still does not change the fact the empire was really tolerant for its age

[Hayalet]

Yeah I forget Kurds have a great time in Turkey.
That Kurds don't have a great time in Turkey ≠ Ottomans genocided Kurds

[Hurrem sultana]

You are right in that case. Compared to the Arab Caliphates and even Medieval Europe the Ottomans were leagues ahead when it came to ethnic harmony, but when the Empire began to fragment they clamped down on ethnic minorities brutally in an attempt to squash any nationalist/independence movements.

Most of the massacres occurred towards the end of the Empire's reign.



Yeah I forget Kurds have a great time in Turkey.

Let's not derail.


Kurds had a great time in Ottoman Empire,not Turkey

Any islamic state is not allowed to force upon anyone any religion,since it goes against the basic teachings of Koran.That is the reason why you today live as a muslim in a 95% christian balkan,if ottomans were like any other empire at that time Balkan today would have been 90% islamic

[Hurrem sultana]

What does that have to do with the fact that the Ottoman Empire did not elevate Christians to the same social status as Muslims?

We are talking about a different society with different values in a very different time from our modern times.You have to judge them by taking into account the time and place

[Incal]

It's annoying that most Bosnians will side with Turkey just out of principle, simply due to our historical relationship with our Christian neighbors.

You can't have it both ways. You can't demand people recognize Srebrenica and other Yugoslav war massacres as acts of genocide but then turn a blind eye to Armenia; which was Srebrenica multiplied by a factor of 1,000.

It's also ironic that both Serbia and Turkey are very strong historical revisionists that deny their state's participation in any war crimes but demand that the other recognize either Armenia or Srebrenica as an act of genocide.

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg183/Incal_x/bucket/N2FEP.gif

[Linet]

We are talking about a different society with different values in a very different time from our modern times.You have to judge them by taking into account the time and place

A war is a war and a genocide is a genocide...

[Onur]

That is the reason why you today live as a muslim in a 95% christian balkan,if ottomans were like any other empire at that time Balkan today would have been 90% islamic
This is partly the reason of harsh criticism against Ottoman empire today. I mean the tolerance of Ottoman empire towards christians.

As we perfectly know, Turks could have destroy every church in Bulkans and Anatolia and shut down the orthodox patriarchy, kill all the Byzantine remains of Rum/Greek speakers if they wanted to do so. Who could have stop them in 1390s AD? EU courts of human rights or UN?!!!

If they would have desire to do so, they didn't even have to destroy churches at all. They could have expel all the christians of Balkans to the north, to the Hapsburg territories and convert all Balkans from Greece to Hungary to some kind of muslim Turkish land in just few decades in 1390s. Already the catholic Hapsburgs could have handle the Orthodox Balkanite peasants and convert them to catholicism in few decades or burn them alive as it`s been happened to all heretics in western Europe.

If Turks would do as such, the christianity of Balkans would have been something like a fairytale which no one even remembers today. BUT they didn't do such a thing and thats exactly why we are getting harsh criticism from Balkan people.

Only the 5% of Balkans has been islamized during ~550 year reign of the Ottoman empire but Wahhabis managed to islamize even more people in Europe in the recent 20 years with the Saudi money.

[Optimus]

^That is pure crap and you know it.Ottoman economy rellied mostly on taxes that subjucated Christian nations needed to pay it.More Muslim converts in empire meant less taxes and less furtune.Anyway tax paying was typical for every Empire.

A total extermination of nations was impossible since that would have backstabbed them and the early Ottoman leaders knew that very well that is why they created the Devsirme system.

[Incal]

There are 2 things fucking muslims love more than anything in this world: Allah and Money. So if they couldn't turn infidels into muslims they would leech them to death. A win win situation for Mohammedans.

[Linet]

This is partly the reason of harsh criticism against Ottoman empire today. I mean the tolerance of Ottoman empire towards christians.

As we perfectly know, Turks could have destroy every church in Bulkans and Anatolia and shut down the orthodox patriarchy if they wanted to do so. Who could stop them in 1390s? EU courts of human rights or UN? If they would have desire to do so, they didn't even have to destroy churches at all. They could have expel all the christians of Balkans to the north, to Hapsburg territories and convert all Balkans from Greece to Hungary to some kind of muslim Turkish land in just few decades in 1390s.

If they would do as such, the christianity of Balkans would have been something like a fairytale which no one even remembers today. BUT they didn't do such a thing and thats exactly why we are getting harsh criticism from Balkan people.

Only the 5% of Balkans has been islamized during ~550 year reign of the Ottoman empire but Wahhabis managed to islamize even more people in Europe in the recent 20 years with the Saudi money.

Go see Cyprus....
...Go check Smirni and Constantinoupolis :odinsleipnir: ...do you see a lot of Churches my baby :baby2000: ? ...all the churches have been leveled to the ground...nothing is left to remind the old glory and the empire...:desert:
Actually go check your entire country...from Cesaria to Prusa...and Adana and come and tell me where our glorious temples are now...

[Anatolian Eagle]

That is irrelevant,i am saying you there was a systematic killing of Armenian people and recognized by mainstream scholars while you and your companions refuse that,typical for your kind i must say.I rest my case here.Have a good sleep kido.

I'm not saying Turks are totally innoncent on this matter. Maybe if you at least dropped one single tear for Armenian crimes agaisnt Turks, Kurds or Azeris I would take your drama a little bit serious. All you're doing here is to sound more patriotic than an average Armenian or try to get some appreciation by bashing Turks and insulting them, which is a common tool to get some support here. Have you ever heard about Khojaly Genocide? Even if you've heard it, I doubt you'd have courage to talk about it here. Then you come around speak about hypocrisy. How pathetic.

[Loki]

Kurds had a great time in Ottoman Empire,not Turkey

Any islamic state is not allowed to force upon anyone any religion,since it goes against the basic teachings of Koran.That is the reason why you today live as a muslim in a 95% christian balkan,if ottomans were like any other empire at that time Balkan today would have been 90% islamic

because now they have the best chance ever in establishing greater kurdistan ...

[Optimus]

I'm not saying Turks are totally innoncent on this matter. Maybe if you at least dropped one single tear for Armenian crimes agaisnt Turks, Kurds or Azeris I would take your drama a little bit serious. All you're doing here is to sound more patriotic than an average Armenian or try to get some appreciation by bashing Turks and insulting them, which is a common tool to get some support here. Have you ever heard about Khojaly Genocide? Even if you've heard it, I doubt you'd have courage to talk about it here. Then you come around speak about hypocrisy. How pathetic.

Pointing some facts is not insulting,Turkish members started to use ad hominems on me because they lack facts/arguments.Khojali massacre was a 1992 event and the death reports are ~650 civilians while the WWI massacre included 1-1.5 million civilians something which is totally refuted by Turks and often play the victim cards just to change the direction of events,in this case the Kurds whom your compatriots label them as subhuman/criminals/terrorists.That was evident in this thread when i was insulted.A Turk member opened a thread about massacred Turk civilians by Greek army but no one insulted him.You should see the difference now!

Don't try to play victim when your compatriots lack manners and cannot debate without lowbrow personal insults.

[Amarantine]

They should and to appology to Armenians.

[Anatolian Eagle]

Pointing some facts is not insulting,Turkish members started to use ad hominems on me because they lack facts/arguments.Khojali massacre was a 1992 event and the death reports are ~650 civilians while the WWI massacre included 1-1.5 million civilians something which is totally refuted by Turks and often play the victim cards just to change the direction of events,in this case the Kurds whom your compatriots label them as subhuman/criminals/terrorists.That was evident in this thread when i was insulted.

I've shown you facts, you've shown one quote and in return I've shown you ~ten more yet you're still blabbering about "lacking facts" lol. I've never seen my Kurdish compatriots subhuman/criminal/terrorist or something, that's just your creation and attempt to put words in my mount, sigh, what an unimaginable level of false accusation. Right, so just because it's ~650 does it make is less of a crime? At least Turkey has decency of admitting Armenian casaulties based on it's archives, saying "Many Armenians have died but so did the Turks", while no single Armenian crime is neither recognized or even mentioned by Armenian authorities, instead it's them who's playing the victim, by labeling Armenians as totally innoncent angels that never harmed anyone else.

[Anatolian Eagle]

A Turk member opened a thread about massacred Turk civilians by Greek army but no one insulted him.You should see the difference now!

Don't try to play victim when your compatriots lack manners and cannot debate without lowbrow personal insults.

I didn't insult you lol. If another Turk did it's his problem, not mine. Stop editing posts while I'm replying to it!

[Onur]

They should and to appology to Armenians.
We can apologize to them, only when the Armenians admits the truth and apologize to us first.

The truth about their traitorous alliance with our enemies during WW-1 and the brutal massacre of ~250.000 Turkish civilians in the name of creating their mythical Armenian kingdom inside Anatolia, stretching from Mediterranean to Caucasus.

[Linet]

....Yes....also the people of the Balkans must apologise to the Turks for having the courage to fight back and defend themselves...:thumbs:

[Optimus]

I've shown you facts, you've shown one quote and in return I've shown you ~ten more yet you're still blabbering about "lacking facts" lol. I've never seen my Kurdish compatriots subhuman/criminal/terrorist or something, that's just your creation and attempt to put words in my mount, sigh, what an unimaginable level of false accusation. Right, so just because it's ~650 does it make is less of a crime? At least Turkey has decency of admitting Armenian casaulties based on it's archives, saying "Many Armenians have died but so did the Turks", while no single Armenian crime is neither recognized or even mentioned by Armenian authorities, instead it's them who's playing the victim, by labeling Armenians as totally innoncent angels that never harmed anyone else.

I am not denying Kholaji massacre,that crime should be aknowledged.But the glass should be broken with Turkey firstly and aknowledge it's dark past.Most of Turks i have seen label the Kurds with such terms that is not lie at all.Caring for them when the situation calls for it is hypocritic.I am tired of you using ad nauseum Armenians are not angels etc etc without any reliable staunch fact.So i won't bother replying to you anymore.Bye.



I didn't insult you lol. If another Turk did it's his problem, not mine. Stop editing posts while I'm replying to it!

I don't see the wrong thing with editing my post.I wanted to add something to it,where would i know that you are replying to me.:confused:
If you did insult me i would have pointed to you.That is why i generalized.

[Anatolian Eagle]

....Yes....also the people of the Balkans must apologise to the Turks for having the courage to fight back and defend themselves...:thumbs:

Who mentioned them now, or called them for apologize? There we go, it's the same card being being played again :rolleyes:

[Linet]

Who mentioned them now, or called them for apologize? There we go, it's the same card being being played again :rolleyes:

...the thing is that Turks apologise for noone...
...Do they apology for the Balkans? Do they apology for the Armenians? There is always an excuse for their most heinous actions...
...No matter what Armenian army did or did not do....Turks still massacred women and children and tried to lead them to extinction....so all the rest...are just excuses....

[Anatolian Eagle]

I am not denying Kholaji massacre,that crime should be aknowledged.But the glass should be broken with Turkey firstly and aknowledge it's dark past.Most of Turks i have seen label the Kurds with such terms that is not lie at all.Caring for them when the situation calls for it is hypocritic.I am tired of you using ad nauseum Armenians are not angels etc etc without any reliable staunch fact.So i won't bother replying to you anymore.Bye.

God, how many Turks have you even met lol. I assume the Turks you met were from YouTube or something? I'm not caring for them when the situtation calls or something, it's called stating facts regardless without being afraid or caring of ethnic origin of the victims and being fair, just because Turkey has some problems with it's Kurdish minory won't make me exclude them. I also could exclude them just to point out Turks were the sole victims but that would be misinformation. Yes, please don't bother replying to me anymore because you're like a broken tape and I don't like broken tapes. Bye.


I don't see the wrong thing with editing my post.I wanted to add something to it,where would i know that you are replying to me.:confused:
If you did insult me i would have pointed to you.That is why i generalized.

Nothing wrong with it. But generalization is bad, bad, bad. It's the sole reason of blind prejudice.

[Anatolian Eagle]

...the thing is that Turks apologise for noone...
...Do they apology for the Balkans? Do they apology for the Armenians? There is always an excuse for their most heinous actions...
...No matter what Armenian army did or did not do....Turks still massacred women and children and tried to lead them to extinction....so all the rest...are just excuses....

No matter what their army did or did not do? :confused:
I can understand Armenians but why Balkans? Let me guess, because Ottoman Empire occupied there centuries ago? The Crusaders invaded Seljuk Empire many times and killed women and children -except Crusaders and Seljuk Turks allied once- but not like I'm going to ask Europe to apologize for this :coffee:

[Optimus]

10 pages of discussion and Turkish members used heavy ad hominems and personal insults.

The reason for it is because they are not accustomed to open criticism.They expect that everyone will glorify them while if someone criticizes them is antiTurk.

http://rsrc.psychologytoday.com/files/imagecache/article-inline-full/blogs/624/2011/03/57596-49806.jpg

[Onur]

Linet, Greeks did the same thing to Cham Albanians but you did it after the war ended while there was even no reason to expel them out anymore. You Greeks expelled out more than 35.000 Cham Albanians by claiming that they cooperated with Germans but without any proper proof.

RhuhdMgAkdk

Afaik, It`s still forbidden for these Albanians to enter Greece today. Why dont you apologize them first and let them come back to their indigenous lands?

OR is it bad when Turks expels Armenians out after killing 250.000 of our people but is it OK when Greeks does the same after the war ended?

Maybe we are being the naive here and Turkish government should start a common initiative with Albanians for the international recognition of the genocide of Albanians in Chameria? Just listen to the eyewitness accounts in the video, you Greeks chopped the hands and legs of these people after the war ended.

[Queen B]

Linet, Greeks did the same thing to Cham Albanians but you did it after the war ended while there was even no reason to expel them out anymore. You Greeks expelled out more than 35.000 Cham Albanians by claiming that they cooperated with Germans but without any proper proof.

Cham Albanians got the fuck out of here, because they collaborated with the Nazis.
Sory, I didn't know that we should thank them for the massacres.



Afaik, It`s still forbidden for these Albanians to enter Greece today. Why dont you apologize them first and let them come back to their indigenous lands?
Apologize for what? For kicking their asses off because they collaborated with Nazis?
:loco:

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Cham Albanians got the fuck out of here, because they collaborated with the Nazis.
Sory, I didn't know that we should thank them for the massacres.


Apologize for what? For kicking their asses off because they collaborated with Nazis?
:loco:

:D:rolleyes::eek:

[Hess]

The ottoman empire was not any worse than any other country or empire would have been at that time.

let's add up the deaths

Pontic Genocide (http://www.evxinospontos.com/English/Genocide.htm)- 350,000
Assyrian Genocide (http://www.evxinospontos.com/English/Genocide.htm)- 250,00
Bulgarian Massacres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batak_massacre)- 15,000
Armenian Genocide (http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocide/armenian_genocide.htm)- 1,500,000

That's over 2.1 million people; Can you name a single European Empire that massacred as much?

[Incal]

We can apologize to them, only when the Armenians admits the truth and apologize to us first.

The truth about their traitorous alliance with our enemies during WW-1 and the brutal massacre of ~250.000 Turkish civilians in the name of creating their mythical Armenian kingdom inside Anatolia, stretching from Mediterranean to Caucasus.

That's what happens when you invade other people's lands: They will try to get rid of you any chance they can.

[Pecheneg]

That's what happens when you invade other people's lands
You know what? Every nation on earth are actually invaders from somewhere. Is it so hard to realize?

[Demhat]

This is just exposure of Turkish nationalist mindset.They are one of the biggest narcissoids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism) .They love themself too much and think they are the best,they view Europeans with highly negative stance.

Just look what they are doing to Armenians and Kurds now.

They describe Kurds as subhuman terrorists with all their force while they play a game that Armenians should apologize firstly.Go figure it.


I am neither a fan of Turkish nationalism/Hypocrisy nor am I a support of their politics against Armenians but for the sake of honesty, as far as my Parents and also our relatives tell me, Armenians from Ex Soviet indeed tried to "invade" Anatolia and did massacre a whole bunch of my ancestors too. Those Armenians were mostly Dashnaks (Nationalists who believe in their duty to rebuild the Armenian Empire). And unfortunately the native Anatolian Armenians, who had no fault on this had to pay the consequences.

I think it was not necessary to deport the Anatolian Armenians and indeed in my opinion there was a "genocide" made on Anatolian Armenians. What I try to say, even victims are not always as clean as it looks.

But like I said there was definitely a mass killing on (mostly) innocent Armenians in World War 1. And an Apology is not too much asked imo.

[Pecheneg]

I am neither a fan of Turkish nationalism nor am I a support of their politics against Armenians but for the sake of honesty, as far as my Parents and also our relatives tell me, Armenians from Ex Soviet indeed tried to "invade" Anatolia and did massacre a whole bunch of my ancestors too. Those Armenians were mostly Dashnaks (Nationalists who believe in their duty to rebuild the Armenian Empire). And unfortunately the native Anatolian Armenians, who had no fault on this had to pay the consequences.

I think it was not necessary to deport the Anatolian Armenians and indeed in my opinion there was a "genocide" made on Anatolian Armenians. What I try to say, even victims are not always as clean as it looks.

But like I said there was definitely a mass killing on (mostly) innocent Armenians in World War 1.
There was also mass killing on innocent Turks and Kurds of eastern anatolia by tashnak armenian gangs especially in regions like erzurum, van, muş..
Kurds and Turks are on same boat, at least in this issue.
armenians should stop playing the "victim"!
They tried to create greater armenia, killed hundreds of thousands with the help of Russians, when the Turks were at war with allied powers and numerous rebels. The young men were in battlefields and villages were unprotected, armenians saw this as an oppurtunity to create greater armenia!

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

That's what happens when you invade other people's lands: They will try to get rid of you any chance they can.

so says a European descendant person on American natives land..:rolleyes:

[Pecheneg]

so says a European descendant person on American natives land..:rolleyes:

Don't you know? All native americans died because of mysterious plague. :rolleyes:

[Onur]

Cham Albanians got the fuck out of here, because they collaborated with the Nazis.
Sory, I didn't know that we should thank them for the massacres.


Apologize for what? For kicking their asses off because they collaborated with Nazis?
:loco:
OK Dandelion, i already said the same thing but the problem is, you guys here keep yelling at us for the Armenians when i say exactly the same thing;

Armenians got the fuck out of here, because they collaborated with the Russians.
Sory, I didn't know that we should thank them for the massacres.


Apologize for what? For kicking their asses off because they collaborated with Russians?
:loco:
This is the problem. It`s perfectly fine when you speak about Albanians like that but we became "big bad barbarian Turks" when we say the same thing.

Don't be a hypocrite.

[Linet]

Armenians from Ex Soviet indeed tried to "invade" Anatolia and did massacre a whole bunch of my ancestors too. Those Armenians were mostly Dashnaks (Nationalists who believe in their duty to rebuild the Armenian Empire).
I think it was not necessary to deport the Anatolian Armenians and indeed in my opinion there was a "genocide" made on Anatolian Armenians. What I try to say, even victims are not always as clean as it looks.

What was the crime of the Armenians and the Greeks of Pontus? :confused3:


You know what? Every nation on earth are actually invaders from somewhere. Is it so hard to realize?

Really? :icon_ask:
how about Greeks? Who did we kill to get our land :fwhat:? (except our own selves :rolleyes2:)


Linet, Greeks did the same thing to Cham Albanians but you did it after the war ended while there was even no reason to expel them out anymore. You Greeks expelled out more than 35.000 Cham Albanians by claiming that they cooperated with Germans but without any proper proof.

OR is it bad when Turks expels Armenians out after killing 250.000 of our people but is it OK when Greeks does the same after the war ended?


The Chams Albanians helped the Nazis as Dand said :flyingdev... Greeks after WW2 chased down anyone who helped the Nazis and especially our own kind first, the few Greeks who did so and ashamed us....:thumb down2

If anything like that has happened, Albanians would yell it in every thread :argue:...do they? No :nono:...you know better than them :chin: ? No :no000000:...but they have the brains to understand my cutie baby....when you...eh well...you are just a baby, my baby :baby2000:


No matter what their army did or did not do? :confused:
I can understand Armenians but why Balkans? Let me guess, because Ottoman Empire occupied there centuries ago? The Crusaders invaded Seljuk Empire many times and killed women and children -except Crusaders and Seljuk Turks allied once- but not like I'm going to ask Europe to apologize for this :coffee:

Centuries ago? Do you think you gave us our freedom out of the bottom of your good heart :love0031:? We paid our freedom with blood....and for the last 200 years, we continue to pay with blood now and then your aggresiveness....also the 400 years that you had us under slavery, well slavery....does that ring a bell to you? Death, rapes and killings...should we thank our executioners?
Oh and about the crusaders...why should i care? Crusaders first of all attacked to Constantinoupolis, they are the reason we weakned and so you succeed to take Constantinoupolis...Do we accuse them? Yes sure...bad crusaders, but thats all. They didnt try to wipe us from the face of the earth.

Also whats your logic :dunno:? If i beat you up and your mama come to me to ask me why i did it, i can use as excuse that Hess beat me up yesterday? So? thats an excuse? He did that so i can do worse? Thats paranoia and what a criminal would use as excuse...he killed so i can too...why only him?

[Linet]

Don't you know? All native americans died because of mysterious plague. :rolleyes:

Ok...so? :blink:
If i beat you up because i am bad , then you can go beat up and rape Imago Dei and Loony and then use what i did to you as excuse :icon_ask:?
great logic :thumbs:
....It rocks...:clap2:

Actually with Americans as your excuse if even more crazy :twitch00:...is like i beat up Hess and you go and do those staff...:crazy:

[Pecheneg]

Really? :icon_ask:
how about Greeks? Who did we kill to get our land :fwhat:? (except our own selves :rolleyes2:)

The most common y-choromosome in greece, e3b originated in africa.
http://i46.tinypic.com/xp0pz7.png
so a significant percentage of modern greek population originally came from there as invaders. :thumb001:

[Linet]

The most common y-choromosome in greece, the e3b originated in africa.

so a significant percentage of modern greek population originally came from there as invaders. :thumb001:

And we beat who? Who lived here? :eyes

[Svipdag]

Acknowledge, maybe, but apologise ? What would be the point of it ? You don't imagine for a moment that, whoever apologises to whom first, the apology would be sincere, do you ?

As I've said elsewhere, an apology made under duress is hypocrisy. An insincere apology is nothing but a worthless lie. And, if both apologies are lies, what the hell difference does it make who apologises to whom first ?
I know, it's a matter of saving face. So, when did the Turks and Armenians become Chinese ?


"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." - Benjamin Franklin

[Linet]

Acknowledge, maybe, but apologise ? What would be the point of it ? You don't imagine for a moment that, whoever apologises to whom first, the apology would be sincere, do you ?

As I've said elsewhere, an apology made under duress is hypocrisy. An insincere apology is nothing but a worthless lie. And, if both apologies are lies, what the hell difference does it make who apologises to whom first ?
I know, it's a matter of saving face. So, when did the Turks and Armenians become Chinese ?


"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." - Jonathan Swift

Of course it wouldnt be enough...
....for for Turks to admit and apologise for anything :blink ? After that the apocalypse will take place :pray:

[Viljuska]

The ottoman empire was not any worse than any other country or empire would have been at that time.I dare to say it was a bit better even,,since at least they did not kill you if you did not convert to islam!! The ahdnama of sultan Fatih in Bosnia is one example of it! it speaks for it self....for those times,it is like a human rights right guarantee


It is not true that Christians could not study,lol.And the paying taxes..well it is part of islam,and it certainly more humane than "convert or die or move"Thanks for informing us of "Pax Ottomana" :rolleyes:

[Pecheneg]

opression and cruelty of the Turks
here, ahidnama by Ottoman Emperor Mehmed-II

"I, the Sultan Khan the Conqueror,

hereby declare the whole world that,

The Bosnian Franciscans granted with this sultanate firman are under my protection. And I command that:

No one shall disturb or give harm to these people and their churches! They shall live in peace in my state.
These people who have become emigrants, shall have security and liberty. They may return to their monasteries which are located in the borders of my state.
No one from my empire notable, viziers, clerks or my maids will break their honour or give any harm to them!
No one shall insult, put in danger or attack these lives, properties, and churches of these people!
Also, what and those these people have brought from their own countries have the same rights...
By declaring this firman, I swear on my sword by the holy name of Allah who has created the ground and sky, Allah's prophet Mohammed, and 124,000 former prophets that; no one from my citizens will react or behave the opposite of this firman!"

http://i50.tinypic.com/18i24n.jpg

[Optimus]

The most common y-choromosome in greece, e3b originated in africa.
http://i46.tinypic.com/xp0pz7.png
so a significant percentage of modern greek population originally came from there as invaders. :thumb001:

You better use your brain kid.E3b now called EV13 is regarded to be a Mesolithic Southern European lineage by Cruciani.Most of other lineages R1b,R1a,J2 are Neolithic newcomers from Asia.

This is offtopic anyway.Your point is totally unrelated with the topic and flawless to say.

[Linet]

Mmmmm Bosnians.....:eyes
....Whats their religion again? :wink

[Hurrem sultana]

Mmmmm Bosnians.....:eyes
....Whats their religion again? :wink

Islam,,Christianity

[Linet]

Islam,,Christianity

In what analogy?

[Pecheneg]

You better use your brain kid.E3b now called EV13 is regarded to be a Mesolithic Southern European lineage by Cruciani.Most of other lineages R1b,R1a,J2 are Neolithic newcomers from Asia.

This is offtopic anyway.
It's a scientific fact, e3b originated in africa.
it is older than other lineages but doesn't change the fact that it is originally from africa.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Mmmmm Bosnians.....:eyes
....Whats their religion again? :wink


lol Ottomans provided shelter for Jew Sepheradims too ..who exiled them ?

[Optimus]

It's a scientific fact, e3b originated in africa.
it is older than other lineages but doesn't change the fact that it is originally from africa.

You know nothing of scientific facts.You just want to take things out of context.We all originate in Africa at a given timeline.I am saying you it is in Europe from Mesolithic times meanwhile there is very big chances R1b-M269* entered Europe via North Africa,i guess according to you that makes them African too.

[Linet]

lol Ottomans provided shelter for Jew Sepheradims too ..who exiled them ?

In the case of the Bosnians, it proves nothing of generocity...but a great diplomatic mind with amazing ruling abilities....:thumbs up
Think of it, if you dont get why and what he succeeded by this one move...then i ll tell you how i mean it...

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

In the case of the Bosnians, it proves nothing of generocity...but a great diplomatic mind with amazing ruling abilities....:thumbs up
Think of it, if you dont get why and what he succeeded by this one move...then i ll tell you how i mean it...

Do you expect a multicultural empire would be moved with emotions ?


- 1453: The (3) third liberation of Jews in (Konstantinopel) - (Istanbul). The great Jewish community had been liberated from Christian persecution, mastery, oppression and slavery, by Ottoman Turks, the Emperor Fatih Sultan the Ist Mehmet Khan in Istanbul-(Turkey).

check this too ..that's real genocide not a political fairytale..


We should always remember the following people and occurences and not forget, to note under no circumstances: The countless mislaying victims of Turkey, the turkish citizens, former Turkish citizens, Turkish descent Jews&Turks, the helpless victims, children, families and elderly displaced during the Holocaust-Shoa 1933-1945 from Nazi-Germany, Nazi- allies countries and Nazi- occupied European countries that were murdered systematically in many death camps gas chambers and burned..

Furthermore, the unique Turkish Diplomats and Diplomatic Corp during the Holocaust-Shoa 1933-1945 with their live saving actions from Nazi-Germany, Nazi- allies countries and Nazi- occupied European countries. Saving lives of helpless Jews and Jewish descent families and children, to remember.

World wide the unique helping hand of Turkey and Turkish Nation, like in the past and during the Holocaust-Shoa 1933-1945 saving lives of countless European Jews, Jewish descent families, children, elderly and sick people.


- The Jews relive: Expulsion, slaughter and burned live at stake in, Germany Bavaria King Ludwig X - 1470 , Spain - 1490 - 1492, Portugal - 1497, Italy - Sicily - 1500, France - 1501, Greece - 1520, Apulia - Vatican - 1537, Bohemia - 1542, Ancona Marrano Jews Italy - 1556, and in Caucasia by the Armenians 1865 and 1913 and 1919.
http://www.desperate-hours.eu/english/links_eng.htm

[Linet]

Do you expect a multicultural empire would be moved with emotions ?

check this too ..that's real genocide not a political fairytale..


I dont expect anything... :nono:
But Pech post it as a show of Turkish courtecy :angel: which was proof of how clever :lightbul: that Sultan was...but courtecy no...
...I admit that it was really a brilliant move....one small deed so much gain....so much gain...that guy was really smart....:thumbs:

[Demhat]

What was the crime of the Armenians and the Greeks of Pontus? :confused3:





Read my post again. Anatolian Armenians (for most part) had no fault, Armenians were separated into two Groups, One living in the Ottoman Empire and another in the Russian Empire. The ones living in the Russian Empire invaded together with Russians Anatolia and a few Anatolian Armenians collaborated with them. These Armenians from Russian Empire where Dashnaks (ultra nationalists who believe all the way from Caspian to Mediterranean should be Armenia). So the question is, should we see the Armenians of this time as "collective" or two different groups. In case one "the Armenians" should also be blamed , in the other case it looks different and the Anatolian Armenians were killed without any fault. However the response on Ottoman side was excessive and unnecessary, almost as if they were looking for a reason to get rid of all Armenians. Of course People of Kurdish origin (mostly Bandits and prisoners who were promised money and their liberty) were also part of this killings. But like I said its really complicated. You dont need to support the Armenian side 100% to feel sorry for the innocent Children and Woman which died in this process. Someone who has seen photos of the deportation and does not feel any compassion is not a Human in my eyes.

Of course the same goes for the people killed by Dashnaks.

This is my opinion no one has to agree.

However this is not my process so I shall stay out of this.

[Linet]

Read my post again. Anatolian Armenians (for most part) had no fault

....:rolleyes:
....that was rhetoric....it wasnt really a question... :D
...and it was directed to the Turks here ;)

[Anatolian Eagle]

At least Demhat has decency of being honest and fair on this matter, pointing wrongs of both sides, and I praise him for this.

[Incal]

so says a European descendant person on American natives land..:rolleyes:


Don't you know? All native americans died because of mysterious plague. :rolleyes:

I have both European and Native ancestors, One.

Two, my European ancestors came way after Independence, so they didn't invade a thing. As a matter of fact they gave jobs and helped a lot of natives.

And Three, at least in the particular case of my country, there are more natives these days than in the past. Sadly I can't say the same about Greeks and Armenians in the territory known these days as Turkey.

[Onur]

Two, my European ancestors came way after Independence, so they didn't invade a thing. As a matter of fact they gave jobs and helped a lot of natives.

And Three, at least in the particular case of my country, there are more natives these days than in the past. Sadly I can't say the same about Greeks and Armenians in the territory known these days as Turkey.
Turks came to Anatolia at least 1000 years ago and we reign supreme in here longer than anyone else, including Greeks.

So, we were here even 500+ years earlier than the first European man stepped on the America for the first time.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

I have both European and Native ancestors, One.

Two, my European ancestors came way after Independence, so they didn't invade a thing. As a matter of fact they gave jobs and helped a lot of natives.

And Three, at least in the particular case of my country, there are more natives these days than in the past. Sadly I can't say the same about Greeks and Armenians in the territory known these days as Turkey.

good excuses..

Yes ,you are white as an angel..:rolleyes:

[Xenomorph]

Yes, they should. Both sides should acknowledge what they did.

[Incal]

good excuses..

Yes ,you are white as an angel..:rolleyes:

Not an angel but at least neither me or any of my ancestors have lived in a house or a place taken away from others and that's enough for me.



Turks came to Anatolia at least 1000 years ago and we reign supreme in here longer than anyone else, including Greeks.

So, we were here even 500+ years earlier than the first European man stepped on the America for the first time.

Even in places such as Van or Smyrna?

[Linet]

Even in places such as Van or Smyrna?

Constantinoupolis was our capital for more than 1000 years and we lived there even after Turks came...Greeks left the place just 60 years ago....on 1955...

Smirni and the other cities of the coast were Greek for 3000 years....we left on 1922 because of the Turkish hospitality....

[Optimus]

Constantinoupolis was our capital for more than 1000 years and we lived there even after Turks came...Greeks left the place just 60 years ago....on 1955...

Smirni and the other cities of the coast were Greek for 3000 years....we left on 1922 because of the Turkish hospitality....

Constantinoples was not a Greek city,deal with it.That part of territory was always inhabited by Thracians and the city itself was built by Constantine a Thraco-Illyrian/Dardanian.It was the capital of Byzantine Empire/Roman Empire who eventually at a latter stage adopted Greek language as official.Enough of your Greek chauvinism.

[Hayalet]

Even in places such as Van or Smyrna?
Yes. Turks conquered Van in around 1071 and have been controlling it ever since. Whereas Izmir was first conquered by Turks in 1076 and it has been under continuous Turkish control since 1310. Both predate Columbus in the Americas, you see.

[Linet]

Constantinoples was not a Greek city,deal with it.That part of territory was always inhabited by Thracians and the city itself was built by Constantine a Thraco-Illyrian/Dardanian.It was the capital of Byzantine Empire/Roman Empire who eventually at a latter stage adopted Greek language as official.Enough of your Greek chauvinism.

You know about teh Thracians too :rolleyes2:? How good? As good as you know about Macedonians? :wink
Thracians were Greeks...and when Alexander took them to his army, he took them as Greeks, unlike your Peonian ancestors that he called them friendly foreigners ....:thumbs up

[Incal]

Constantinoples was not a Greek city,deal with it.That part of territory was always inhabited by Thracians and the city itself was built by Constantine a Thraco-Illyrian/Dardanian.It was the capital of Byzantine Empire/Roman Empire who eventually at a latter stage adopted Greek language as official.Enough of your Greek chauvinism.

Dude please, don't derail the thread with your FYROMian propaganda. You have the Makedonija sub-forum for that.

[Onur]

Even in places such as Van or Smyrna?
Yes, Izmir and Van are Turkish cities since 1070s. Don't get fooled by the survival of Byzantines `till 1453. In fact, Byzantine empire was practically no more since 11th century and continued to survive as a small city state in the European part of Istanbul but in the middle of Turks from all around. They isolated themselves with giant walls inside the city and there was no technology to destroy these walls `till 1400s. Also it was not possible to properly siege the city because they had exit from the seaside.

So they adopted Chinese way to survive, building giant walls all around and in fact, if there would be a technology to destroy, Istanbul would probably be a Turkish city since 11th century like the rest of Anatolia. When the cannon technology advanced in 15th century, Mehmet II. built the most biggest cannons in the world and destroyed the walls.


Ohh, the Crusaders occupied the city from 1200 to 1300 but that was because of the stupidity of Byzantines. They opened the gates themselves and took 10.000s of Crusader soldiers inside by hoping that they would shoo the Turks out from Anatolia but in the end, crusaders killed all the stupid Byzantines inside the city and the poor Byzantine emperor himself took refuge to the Turks to save his life. Thats how they were able to occupy the city in 1200s.

[Linet]

Yes. Turks conquered Van in around 1071 and have been controlling it ever since. Whereas Izmir was first conquered by Turks in 1076 and it has been under continuous Turkish control since 1310. Both predate Columbus in the Americas, you see.


And continuus Greek population since 1000 BC...how about that? :coffee:

[Optimus]

You know about teh Thracians too :rolleyes2:? How good? As good as you know about Macedonians? :wink
Thracians were Greeks...and when Alexander took them to his army, he took them as Greeks, unlike your Peonian ancestors that he called them friendly foreigners ....:thumbs up

Thracians were not Greek.Don't be such a silly person.Otherwise bring me sources where it states firmly that Thracians were Greek offshot.


Dude please, don't derail the thread with your FYROMian propaganda. You have the Makedonija sub-forum for that.

Did i say Constantinople was Macedonian?No,i said Thracians lived there before Greeks and the city itself was built by a Thraco-Illyrian/Dardanian named Constantine.I don't see any propaganda here.

[Queen B]

OK Dandelion, i already said the same thing but the problem is, you guys here keep yelling at us for the Armenians when i say exactly the same thing;

This is the problem. It`s perfectly fine when you speak about Albanians like that but we became "big bad barbarian Turks" when we say the same thing.

Don't be a hypocrite.
Personally, I didn't even mention Armenians, but I mentioned Pontic Greeks.

[Onur]

Eastern Roman empire was even more multicultural than Ottoman one. There are western European traveler notes from 14-15th century which mentions about the local peoples of Constantinople speaking around 10-15 different languages like Georgian, Turkish, various slavic tongues, Latin, Vlach Roumanian, Italian, French, Armenian and many more

[Linet]

Thracians were not Greek.Don't be such a silly person.Otherwise bring me sources where it states firmly that Thracians were Greek offshot.
Did i say Constantinople was Macedonian?No,i said Thracians lived there before Greeks and the city itself was built by a Thraco-Illyrian/Dardanian named Constantine.I don't see any propaganda here.

Such a baby :baby2000:

In the context of diplomatic contacts between the two sides, the German Emperor Otto I (962-973), founder of the later Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, sent Lombard Liutprand, bishop of Cremona, to Constantinople, to negotiate with emperor Nikiforos Fokas, regarding the match of his son, Otto II with Theophano, a greek princess. But it seems that the bad behavior the Byzantines showed to Liutprand - the latter having been sent there as a representative of the German prince, that is a usurper of Roman legality in the Byzantines' eyes - enraged him so much that he wrote a very passionate and strongly critical report on his trip to Constantinople with the Latin title: "De Legatione Constantinopolitana". This text, which probably reflected not only his personal views but also the prevailing attitudes in the Western world, is considered to be useful for modern historians, in order for them to trace the roots of Western anti-Greek feelings. In this book the Greeks are presented as "frivolous," "stupid", "flatterers," "covetous," "deceitful," "crooks," "untrustworthy," "liars," "traitors" etc. , This opinion the Middle-Age Westerners held about Byzantine Greeks may be interpreted in the light of certain "inferiority complexes" of the early Medieval West towards the thriving eastern empire.


In particular, according to Liutprand :

The Emperor cheats (...) and does not tell anyone the truth. He did as the Greeks always do".

- "Greeks are of uncertain faith: Latins, look carefully! Do not believe them, nor hear their words. How much more will they lie in order for Argos to prevail! ".

- "The perjurer Greece."

- "The deception derives from the Greeks, so that everyone can judge them from a single crime."

- "How much ready are the Greeks to swear on the head of another."

- "The skimpy dinner begins and ends with lettuce, once closed the dinner of their ancestors."

As you see this guy hated Byzantines, he called them Greeks and offended them in every way possible...
Do you think his plan was to prove that Byzantines were Greeks? :eyes...i dont think so...i bet for him teh fact that they were Greeks was a fact and so he was swearing about them as such :angry:


About the Thracians, i have to analyse you or else i m sure you wont understand :wacko:...so i ll do it in another occassion :wink

[The Lawspeaker]

I believe that if the genocide is based on historical facts then it should be recognised.. but for what I can see is the recognition in most countries based on intense Armenian lobbying and thus on nothing else but bribery.

[Linet]

Eastern Roman empire was even more multicultural than Ottoman one. There are western European traveler notes from 14-15th century which mentions about the local peoples of Constantinople speaking around 10-15 different languages like Georgian, Turkish, various slavic tongues, Latin, Vlach Roumanian, Italian, French, Armenian and many more

Onur my love :hug2:...
1. read some history :book2:
2. Dont speak my love :zip-lip:, i may love your fantasies :flypig: but you ruin your image :party000:...so only wisper those imaginary stories :fhhorse: to my ear :icon_whisper:....that i love you and i wont misunderstand :eyes

[Fortis in Arduis]

Every Turkish person in the entire world should write a personal letter of apology to every single Armenian, apart from the Kardashians, who are plastic dolls made in China.

[Linet]

, apart from the Kardashians, who are plastic dolls made in China.

:silly000:

[SKYNET]

there are a simple examples of the genocide in the caucasus as circassians and other ethnic caucasian groups. Russia itself still doesn't recognize this massacre. Hey people, that's not fair.

[Pecheneg]

I believe that if the genocide is based on historical facts then it should be recognised.. but for what I can see is the recognition in most countries based on intense Armenian lobbying and thus on nothing else but bribery.

off-topic, but there is someone insulting me via tagging in every single thread and i want to know who is that moron.

[The Lawspeaker]

off-topic, but there is someone insulting me via tagging in every single thread and i want to know who is that moron.

I am not sure whether I am allowed to tell you but I will hunt down that person as the Staff does not take kindly to people that use insulting tags.

[StonyArabia]

there are a simple examples of the genocide in the caucasus as circassians and other ethnic caucasian groups. Russia itself still doesn't recognize this massacre. Hey people, that's not fair.

The difference is Circassians don't create lobbies and their tribal leaders said to move on rather than dwell in the past. By dewlling in the past they can never move ahead. As well most Circassians don't hold the whole Russian people gulity for the crimes that occurred but rather just remember those who were killed. It was the largest genocide in the 19th century, today Russians many of whom are Russified Ukrainians and Ossets are the dominant ethnic group in Adyghea which is composed of 63% well the Adyghes makeup only 23% in their homeland.

[Gospodine]

but for what I can see is the recognition in most countries based on intense Armenian lobbying and thus on nothing else but bribery.

Lol... Armenian lobbying... from who? The band System of a Down?

Pan-Turkism is a far more well-funded and politically powerful lobbyist movement than Armenian nationalist groups.

The list of dead Turkish journalists with liberal views in regards to ethnic minorities is quite long:
http://cpj.org/killed/europe/turkey/

[The Lawspeaker]

Lol... Armenian lobbying... from who? The band System of a Down?

Pan-Turkism is a far more well-funded and politically powerful lobbyist movement than Armenian nationalist groups.

The list of dead Turkish journalists with liberal views in regards to ethnic minorities is quite long:
http://cpj.org/killed/europe/turkey/
The fact is, though, that the recognition of the genocide was only passed here in my country and in other countries in Europe after intensive Armenian lobbying and for that alone I think that recognition should be withdrawn. Recognition that is not based on historical evidence but on political corruption is not recognition. Why ? Because we would first need conclusive evidence and a real independent investigation into the Armenian genocide.

What happened now is just a perversion of the political process and Dutch jurisprudence and nothing but a hostile Armenian attack on Dutch jurisprudence and the Dutch political process.

[Hurrem sultana]

Gospodine whats up with you talking bad about Turkey from Australia? we have greater enemies,Armenians never recgonized Srebrenica...it is all politics,the armenians on this forum were worse than chetniks

[Anatolian Eagle]

Lol... Armenian lobbying... from who? The band System of a Down?

Pan-Turkism is a far more well-funded and politically powerful lobbyist movement than Armenian nationalist groups.

The list of dead Turkish journalists with liberal views in regards to ethnic minorities is quite long:
http://cpj.org/killed/europe/turkey/

How many Turkish diplomats were killed by ASALA, backed by Armenian government itself? And yes, Armenian lobby activities are much more effective compared to Turkish one. Most of Turkish diaspora are living in foreign countries for more wealthy life, not because of Turkey's political goals or to fund pan-Turkism. There's no point in funding pan-Turkism in Europe.

[Gospodine]

Gospodine whats up with you talking bad about Turkey from Australia? we have greater enemies,Armenians never recgonized Srebrenica...it is all politics,the armenians on this forum were worse than chetniks

Like I said to you before:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980132&postcount=64

I don't care for Armenian nationalists, I hate them as equally as Turkish ones, but I'm not going to be prejudice towards a group of people simply because they're Orthodox Christians which seems to be your underlying motivation.

[Hurrem sultana]

Like I said to you before:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980132&postcount=64

I don't care for Armenian nationalists, I hate them as equally as Turkish ones, but I'm not going to be prejudice towards a group of people simply because they're Orthodox Christians which seems to be your underlying motivation.
You have no reason to hate people just like that

[SKYNET]

The Armenian American lobby is a term used to describe the loose coalition of groups and individuals who influence United States foreign policy in support of Armenia and its policies.

Zbigniew Brzezinski ranks the three most effective ethnic lobbies in the United States as the Israeli American Lobby, the Cuban American lobby and the Armenian American lobby.

The lobby is credited with considerable success in persuading Congress to favor Armenian interests. Among its achievements are $90 million in aid annually for Armenia, the continuation of Section 907 of the Freedom Support Act blocking aid to Azerbaijan, success in stalling an arms deal with Turkey, and support for official US governmental recognition of the Armenian Genocide of 1915-1921.

While the Armenian lobby has been effective in a number of public relations campaigns, it has been—after more than 25 years of effort—a woeful failure regarding their primary goal, the recognition of the Genocide of Armenians by the United States government. No matter identity of the president or the ruling political party, the Armenian lobbyists have been unable to change United States policy regarding Genocide recognition.

The Armenian American Political Action Committee (A.A.P.A.C.), is a political action committee founded by Albert A. Boyajian.

The Armenian National Committee of America works to initiate legislation on issues of concern to the Armenian American community, such as strengthening Armenia as a secure, prosperous and democratic state; supporting Nagorno Karabagh's right to self-determination and independence within secure borders; increasing U.S. aid levels to Armenia to promote economic and democratic development; securing direct U.S. aid to Nagorno Karabagh; ensuring the appropriate commemoration of the Armenian Genocide; and encouraging Turkey and Azerbaijan to lift their blockades and adhere to international standards for human rights and humanitarian practices.

The Armenian Assembly of America aims to "strengthen U.S./Armenia and U.S./Nagorno Karabakh relations, promotes Armenia's and Karabakh's democratic development and economic prosperity and seeks universal affirmation of the Armenian Genocide" via "research, education and advocacy."

The Armenian Youth Federation-Youth Organization Of The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (AYF-YOARF). In the early 1990s the AYF found a new challenge: Nagorno-Karabakh. In 1988 the struggle for independence in the Karabagh region started. AYF became involved in fund raising activities to supply much-needed funds to the people in Karabakh. Even after the independence of Nagorno-Karabagh in 1991 and the cease-fire in 1993, the AYF continued to help the region. In 1994 the AYF Western Region decided to create a program, called the AYF Youth Corps, that sent about ten youths that year and continues to send up to 15 each summer. The mission of the Youth Corps is to help rebuild schools, camps, churches, etc. in the various regions of Nagorno-Karabakh.

source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_lobby_in_the_United_States




it like as U.S. financial Aid to Israel

[Anatolian Eagle]

The Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA) (Armenian: Հայաստանի Ազատագրութեան Հայ Գաղտնի Բանակ, ՀԱՀԳԲ) was an Armenian militant organization, that operated from 1975[2] to early 1990s.[6] It is considered a terrorist organization by some sources,[7][8][9] other sources describe it as guerrilla[10][11][12][13] and armed[14] organization. 46 people were killed and 299 injured as a result of ASALA attacks and assassinations. The stated intention of ASALA was "to compel the Turkish Government to acknowledge publicly its responsibility for the deaths of 1.5 million Armenians in 1915, pay reparations, and cede territory for an Armenian homeland".[15] The principal goal of ASALA was to reestablish historical Armenia that would include eastern Turkey and the Soviet Armenia.[16] The territory to be ceded would be the area promised to the Armenians at the never-ratified Treaty of Sèvres in 1920 by US President Woodrow Wilson, "Wilsonian Armenia".[17]

The group received considerable clandestine support from Armenian diaspora in Europe and in the USA.[18]

Suffering from internal schisms, the group was relatively inactive in the 1990s, although in 1991 it claimed an unsuccessful attack on the Turkish ambassador to Hungary. The organization has not engaged in militant activity since then.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASALA

[Onur]

Lol... Armenian lobbying... from who? The band System of a Down?
You don't know anything about this issue.

Armenian diaspora is the biggest and most powerful lobby in the world after the Jewish one. There are Armenian politicians in all over Europe and America, mainly in France, Belgium, USA. They are directly funding Armenian state with billions every year and funding the so-called "genocide recognition" lobbies with 100s of millions.

For the last 20-30 years, there is not even single government cabinet in France without at least one Armenian minister. Also, French press and judiciary is full with Armenian journalists and high judges. Ofc no need to count Russia because it`s their "mother Russia".

I can easily say that the Armenian diaspora is more richer, powerful and more influential than the Armenian state itself.

[Fortis in Arduis]

I can easily say that the Armenian diaspora is more richer, powerful and more influential than the Armenian state itself.

More influential still, and with greater gravitas is this:

http://granthestonfitness.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/kim-kardashian-buttock-augmentation.jpg

which would seek to draw all and everything within its orbit, and would smother the entire world if we were to let it! :eek:

[Gospodine]

You have no reason to hate people just like that

You have no reason to tell me how to think.

Just because I'm not like every other self-loathing Bosnian you happen to know with a strong inferiority/victimization complex coupled with an exposure to 3 decades of Pan-Islamist/Nationalist propaganda from the likes of idiots such as Izetbegovic and Mustafa Ceric, does not make me any less qualified to voice my opinion on this sh*t than you.

You keep repeating whatever nonsense your parents put into your head about Serbs and Orthodox people and why we should love Turks; I'll try and be rational and view the issue from a 3rd-person perspective rather than let my ethnicity determine how I should feel.


Gospodine whats up with you talking bad about Turkey from Australia?

Bosnian, what's up with you defending the slaughter of innocent Armenians 100 years ago from Sweden?

You know what, you're right. I should be thanking the Turks for conquering the Balkans 500 years ago and sowing the seeds of ever-lasting ethnic hatred that to this day continues to divide a population that could not be more similar to their neighbors if they tried.

There's nothing more productive than killing each other over witch hunts that started 500 years ago.


we have greater enemies,

Who is we exactly?

I have no enemies. I don't hate Turks. Turks are Turks.
Bosnians are Bosnians.

I don't hate them and I have no reason to be more sympathetic towards them at the same time.

The Ottoman Empire did miraculous things that Catholic Europe at the time couldn't dream of.
It lasted for over 700 years under the rule of a single dynasty; one of the longest-lasting contiguous empires in history.
They united over 100 different ethnic groups within their borders.
They were militarily unmatched for 2 centuries and could have very easily came to dominate Austria and parts of Northern Italy had they not lost the Siege of Vienna.
They preserved much of ancient Greek, Persian, Babylonian and Egyptian innovations and discoveries in science, medicine, astronomy and maths that would have otherwise been lost.

They also did despicable things that put them in the same league as blood-thirsty Catholic Europe of that era who was content to burn every book that wasn't the Bible and slaughter women for witchcraft, invade Jerusalem and spark a protracted, pointless conflict with the Saracens, etc...

Stop taking my stance so personally and be rational.


Armenians never recgonized Srebrenica...

And we never recognized their genocide.

[Hurrem sultana]

Dude if you wanna speak about Bosnians,start with learning our lanaguge

You cant know the situation in Bosnia,i am there every year,i am close to them and yet i never try to talk like you do...what can you know from Australia,you visit Bosnia every 5-6 year? no offense but seriously,calm down.I am not taking it seriously you are.Seriouly you might have been reading a lot of geek material from the forums,and a lot of serbian propaganda

[Onur]

Dude if you wanna speak about Bosnians,start with learning our lanaguge
So he cant speak Bosnian? then grats for your first imposter in the forum Bosnian.

You know we have few of them here, either claiming that they are genetically Anatolian or simply as a Turk but totally ignorant of Turkish and keeps polluting around with their absurd political stance.

It looks like you Bosnians have one of them too.

[Gospodine]

Turks came to Anatolia at least 1000 years ago and we reign supreme in here longer than anyone else, including Greeks.

That doesn't change the fact that from the 1st millennium BC up until roughly 1300 AD the various Hellenic empires and states (under various names but ethnically and culturally the same) were the dominant power in the Aegean, the Ionian coast and Asia Minor.

That's a span of 2000 plus years.

There were Greek speakers in Anatolia before Turkic speakers had even moved into Central Asia which at the time was dominated by Iranian-speaking steppe nomads.

[Gospodine]

Dude if you wanna speak about Bosnians,start with learning our lanaguge

You cant know the situation in Bosnia,i am there every year,i am close to them and yet i never try to talk like you do...what can you know from Australia,you visit Bosnia every 5-6 year? no offense but seriously,calm down.I am not taking it seriously you are.Seriouly you might have been reading a lot of geek material from the forums,and a lot of serbian propaganda

All you're doing is using ad hominem attacks to try and vaguely discredit people when someone's trying to debate something seriously here.

You haven't even commented once on the legitimacy of Turkish claims that the deportation of Armenians didn't actually kill that many in the first place.

You just continue posting derailing nonsense and questioning people because they have a different opinion than yours.

Either debate it or GTFO. Simple as that.

Why are you here? To say that you're qualified to voice an opinion on the Armenian genocide because you're Bosnian and therefore somehow you know "more" about Turksih history than the average person?

You're seriously laughable. You do nothing but inject sentimental crap into a debate like:

"BUT YOU'RE BOSNIAN WHY DON'T YOU AGREE WITH ME???"

[Hurrem sultana]

So he cant speak Bosnian? then grats for your first imposter in the forum Bosnian.

You know we have few of them here, either claiming that they are genetically Anatolian or simply as a Turk but totally ignorant of Turkish and keeps polluting around with their absurd political stance.

It looks like you Bosnians have one of them too.

No he does not,honestly...a kid that is brought up in Australia,and ignorant of his language...shows what kind of upbringing he had.I mean,my childhood was outside bosnia too but i still speak it perfectly

He has no idea about Bosniaks and our mentality,culture....i am sure the only "conection" is through all these forums(silly)

[Hurrem sultana]

All you're doing is using ad hominem attacks to try and vaguely discredit people when someone's trying to debate something seriously here.

You haven't even commented once on the legitimacy of Turkish claims that the deportation of Armenians didn't actually kill that many in the first place.

You just continue posting derailing nonsense and questioning people because they have a different opinion than yours.

Either debate it or GTFO. Simple as that.

Why are you here? To say that you're qualified to voice an opinion on the Armenian genocide because you're Bosnian and therefore somehow you know "more" about Turksih history than the average person?

You're seriously laughable. You do nothing but inject sentimental crap into a debate like:

"BUT YOUR BOSNIAN WHY DON'T YOU AGREE WITH ME???"

I just dont see the interest behind all your attacks here? what is that good for? and it is kinda sad that you are bosnians,thats all

I have been here for a longer time,i know the armenian members here who always stood up for serbs and against bosniaks..so seriosuly,i could care less about them.I feel sorry for all innocent killed people,but i have no intentions discussing that on the forums

[The Lawspeaker]

He is probably some "Greek" or "Armenian" Australian in an identity crisis. :) Don't let yourself be trolled, people.

[Queen B]

He is probably some "Greek" or "Armenian" Australian in an identity crisis. :) Don't let yourself be trolled, people.

Yeah, sure, everyone must be Greek to hate Turks. :rolleyes2:

[Gospodine]

You cant know the situation in Bosnia,i am there every year,i am close to them and yet i never try to talk like you do...

You're mad because I see you for what you are (which these idiots around here can't do) and I know people like you all too well because I've grown up around them my entire life.

Nemam vrijeme za ovakve infantilne razgovore s tobom. Ako hoces ozbilno razgovoriti, onda nauci da ne preuvelicavas tvoje misljenje u svaka thread sta ima neke veze sa Balkanski historija ili kultura, i molim te dadni nesto drugo osim tvoje emoticije.
Dosadno me je da cujim uvijek ista prica od Bosanci svaki put "a kuke nas, jadni Bosanci nemamo srece, mismo naj zrtvi, mi ne mozemo nikad bit krivi".

[Incal]

He is probably some "Greek" or "Armenian" Australian in an identity crisis. :) Don't let yourself be trolled, people.

Bosnian or not, this guy's have really good arguments. Best new poster in a looong time.

[Gospodine]

He has no idea about Bosniaks and our mentality,culture....i am sure the only "conection" is through all these forums(silly)

And you're really a Jew with no connection to Bosnia.

:thumb001:

Nothing to see here folks just another deluded Balkan nationalist.

[Svipdag]

What does it matter what Turkey SHOULD do ? They aren't going to, anyhow.


"AVDACIA PRO MURO HABETVR" - GAIVS SALLVSTIVS CRISPVS

[Gospodine]

Bosnian or not,

Just because I don't happen to speak my native language fluently anymore does not mean I am no less interested in my country's history, culture, language, etc.

[Linet]

So he cant speak Bosnian? then grats for your first imposter in the forum Bosnian.

You know we have few of them here, either claiming that they are genetically Anatolian or simply as a Turk but totally ignorant of Turkish and keeps polluting around with their absurd political stance.

It looks like you Bosnians have one of them too.

Said the Turk who wasnt Turk but a Balkan immigrant....:eyes
Well baby :baby2000:... if he was just throwing staff you would be right :thumb001:. But what he says is always based in logic and cold facts that you, people, cant shake. Thats the reason you team up :smilie_auslachen: and attack him in personal level. His logic is solid, you cant attack that, his facts are undeniable, so you cant attack them either...so lets go personal and gag him :eusa_silenced:....lets order him to stop having opinion :zip_lip.


....

Your have one of the best mindsets i have seen...:hail:. I totally love :embarrassed the way you reply, so clever, accurate and logic...pure logic and facts....

[The Lawspeaker]

And you're really a Jew with no connection to Bosnia.

I have seen her speak Bosnian on several occassions. Do you speak it ?

[poiuytrewq0987]

No, nor does it need to.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

I know one thing..all this discussion here is pointless
Thanks to our warrior skills we are one single indigenious people who does not fell under European assimilation ,protected our culture and even ruled over them..You can get painkillers to stop your stomach pain if you are having hard time in digesting this fact: Europeans were ruled by Altaic Asian people.

I wonder how would be world if Aztek kulture was not murdered by Europeans..none of these nature based cultures survived ,their people ,language ,lifestyles are brutally destroyed ..Want us to apoligise?
You must apologise from the planet and Mother Earth , your type of civilisation is against nature , murdering native cultures ,plundering the sources of other people , You are killing the earth...
Hypocracy and whitewashing is making me puke..

[Gospodine]

I have seen her speak Bosnian on several occassions. Do you speak it ?

Not as well as her (bosnian) since I have lived outside of Bosnia for the past 15 years but more than well enough.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978051&postcount=45
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978054&postcount=46
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978078&postcount=50
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=977938&postcount=12
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980387&postcount=28
http://www.theapricity.com/forum
/showpost.php?p=980401&postcount=32 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980401&postcount=32)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980432&postcount=36
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978113&postcount=52

[The Lawspeaker]

-----
Thanks to a divided Eastern Europe the Ottomans could get as far as Vienna and maybe that was just as well or we Dutch would have been dead. Massacred to extinction by the Spanish.

Thanks to a united Eastern Europe (Poles, Holy Roman Empire, Venetians and later on Austrians and Russians. And even more later in history British, French etc etc.) you were kicked out of mainland Europe. Following exactly the same route the Ottoman invaders had taken from 1453 onwards. But history doesn't start at 1453. It began much earlier with Byzantium and before that with the crusades when Islam conquered, subjugated and in a lot of cases massacred native Middle Eastern populations to extinction.

Look who shouldn't be talking. :rolleyes:;)

[The Lawspeaker]

Not as well as her since I have lived outside of Bosnia for the past 15 years but more than well enough.


Why did you leave ?

[Gospodine]

Why did you leave ?

Think back to what happened in the early 1990's in the Balkans. There's your answer.

[The Lawspeaker]

Think back to what happened in the early 1990's in the Balkans. There's your answer.

Then why haven't you returned then. Dayton was in 1995.

[Gospodine]

Then why haven't you returned then.

Have you been there since 1995?

No? Then shutup please.

She doesn't live there either fyi, not that's it's at all relevant but she seems to think because she visits Bosnia more often than I do she's more qualified to talk about things she has Googled once or twice in her lifetime. lol

I've visited numerous times; but I think you'll see the majority of Ex-Yugo posters on here live outside of their birth country.

[The Lawspeaker]

Have you been there since 1995?

No? Then shutup please.

She doesn't live there either fyi, not that's it's at all relevant but she seems to think because she visits Bosnia more often than I do she's more qualified to talk about things she has Googled once or twice in her lifetime. lol
Have you ? I am European and things aren't so shitty here as what the colonial "press" may claim. Most Yugoslavs here, in the Netherlands, have long since returned home.

[Hurrem sultana]

Not as well as her (bosnian) since I have lived outside of Bosnia for the past 15 years but more than well enough.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978051&postcount=45
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978054&postcount=46
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978078&postcount=50
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=977938&postcount=12
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980387&postcount=28
http://www.theapricity.com/forum
/showpost.php?p=980401&postcount=32 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980401&postcount=32)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980432&postcount=36
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=978113&postcount=52


That is google translate..sorry,,but you cant fool us

[Hurrem sultana]

I have been outside Bosnia just as long as you,yet i speak perfectly Bosnian.....so who has more right to speak here? you speak some kind of google bosnian

[Gospodine]

Still waiting for your response buddy:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=985756&postcount=168

[Incal]

Dude if you wanna speak about Bosnians,start with learning our lanaguge

Most retarded argument ever.

[Gospodine]

Most Yugoslavs here, in the Netherlands, have long since returned home.

... Yes and?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_diaspora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_diaspora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_diaspora

There are roughly 2 million Bosnians abroad. That's half of our current population.

[Hurrem sultana]

1.He does not look bosnian
2.he does not speak bosnian
3.His ideas are not typical for bosnians

[SKYNET]

he's just trolling, don't pay attention please :p

[The Lawspeaker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_diaspora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_diaspora
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_diaspora

There are roughly 2 million Bosnians abroad. That's half of our current population.

Listen: I live here and that means that my information is a lot more accurate then whatever wikipedia pulls out it's arse (you know.. it can be edited ?) Most Yugoslavs here in the Netherlands (and we had a whole bloody lot of them back in the day) have long since returned to their native homelands. So.. why not join them ?

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

as I said its pointless ..we are rivals and our debate is fruitless since you will never accept what your destructive culture did to planet..always will find excuses and claim your innocence, but make us scapegoats..

BTW I am not a fan of Ottomans ,but they are only one empire we founded ..we founded many of them ,all were multicultural, multireligious multi racial ,because thanks to our our wholistic ways, we handle chaos and differences better ..so Our empires provided shelter for the ones who were exiled from Europe and Middleast due to religious differences .

[Linet]

What do you care where he lives or what he speaks? :chin:
Why dont you just care to proove wrong his arguments....oh...i suppose you cant....:rolleyes:
So if you cant beat him in conversation you do the next best thing....not let him talk :taped-shut:
It really reminds me of some courts in tyranic states that the person that the state accuse is not permited to defend himself...dont speak because we cant think of anything to reply to you...well done :thumbs up

[The Lawspeaker]

as I said its pointless ..we are rivals and our debate is fruitless since you will never accept what your destructive culture did to planet..always will find excuses and claim your innocence, but make us scapegoats..

BTW I am not a fan of Ottomans ,but they are only one empire we founded ..we founded many of them ,all were multicultural, multireligious multi racial ,because thanks to our our wholistic ways, we handle chaos and differences better ..so Our empires provided shelter for the ones who were exiled from Europe and Middleast due to religious differences .


You were no better than we were, that's for sure.

[Lena]

That is google translate..sorry,,but you cant fool us

It isn't google translate. It's more than obvious the way he writes 'creten' instead of 'kreten' that he's utilizing his own lang capacity, otherwise there wouldn't be such a 'typos'.

[Gospodine]

It isn't google translate. It's more than obvious the way he writes 'creten' instead of 'kreten' that he's utilizing his own lang capacity, otherwise there wouldn't be such a 'typos'.

Hvala vam ljepo.

[Hurrem sultana]

Hvala vam ljepo.

Hvala vam lijepa:D

[Hurrem sultana]

It isn't google translate. It's more than obvious the way he writes 'creten' instead of 'kreten' that he's utilizing his own lang capacity, otherwise there wouldn't be such a 'typos'.

Did not notice the creten part ,other than that,,previse je nekako "neprirodno" ,ne znam....ali nije puno veci nivo od googleta:D

[The Lawspeaker]

Hvala vam lijepa:D

Spelling errors and grammatical errors ?

[Hurrem sultana]

Spelling errors and grammatical errors ?

yeah

not the biggest though

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

What do you care where he lives or what he speaks? :chin:
Why dont you just care to proove wrong his arguments....oh...i suppose you cant....:rolleyes:
So if you cant beat him in conversation you do the next best thing....not let him talk :taped-shut:
It really reminds me of some courts in tyranic states that the person that the state accuse is not permited to defend himself...dont speak because we cant think of anything to reply to you...well done :thumbs up

are we in a fight?
i hardly think so..i m not trying to win something ..just pointing that, these debates are not getting us anywhere ,that's all

i just sincerely am very unhappy with this supermarket -skyscraper invasion everywhere on world..i feel the planet is suffering because of our unending
consumerism ..walls ,buildings everywhere, even can't breath..suffocating ..depressing...i wish i was born in 13th century in Asia..:(

its all :"Human against nature" culture pervaded every continent..
now we are victorious ..Are we happy?

[Lena]

Spelling errors and grammatical errors ?

No, both are correct.

[Hurrem sultana]

No, both are correct.

No "Hvala vam lijepa" is a bosnian saying,,,if you say "Hvala vam lijepo" it means "thank you in a nice way" but it is not the saying gospodin wanted

[Lena]

Hvala vam ljepo.

Nema na čemu i nije vezano isključivo za tebe kao člana, već više za lična zapažanja.

[Hurrem sultana]

lol look at all the serbs aplaudin to gospodin

maybe he is a balkanian,but not a bosniak one :D

[Lena]

No "Hvala vam lijepa" is a bosnian saying,,,if you say "Hvala vam lijepo" it means "thank you in a nice way" but it is not the saying gospodin wanted

LOL! Bosnian :D I find it hilarious...it's absolutely the same meaning, just so you know in a future :wink

[Gospodine]

lol look at all the serbs aplaudin to gospodin

maybe he is a balkanian,but not a bosniak one :D

Please child... the grown-ups are talking.

Stvarno si jedna dosadna seljacina. Ajde smiri se malo. Majne emocije, zivi ces duze.

[The Lawspeaker]

Please child... the grown-ups are talking.

Mind your tongue a bit, newcomer.

[Lena]

lol look at all the serbs aplaudin to gospodin

maybe he is a balkanian,but not a bosniak one :D

Just because he disagrees with you? I don't know... :D
I haven't read a single word from that poster yet, but I guess I'll run over this thread fast to see what pushed your buttons to the point to dispute his origins.

[Hurrem sultana]

Please child... the grown-ups are talking.

Stvarno si jedna dosadna seljacina. Ajde smiri se malo. Majne emocije, zivi ces duze.

Hmmm not zivi ces but "zivjet ces".Only seljaci say "zivi ces"..so who is seljacina?:D

[Gospodine]

Mind your tongue a bit, newcomer.

I am.
Good to see you're an impartial mod that doesn't show bias.

[Hurrem sultana]

I am.
Good to see you're an impartial mod that doesn't show bias.

You think you have the right to critisize mods after being here 2 days?

[The Lawspeaker]

Gospodine. There are many cultures were people don't take kindly to newcomers insulting (let alone questioning their authority !) either mods or those who have seniority on this forum . Like Bosnian. My culture is one of those: if you had pulled this stunt on a Dutch forum then God help you.

[Hurrem sultana]

Gospodine. There are many cultures were people don't take kindly to newcomers insulting (let alone questioning their authority !) either mods or those who have seniority on this forum . Like Bosnian. My culture is one of those: if you had pulled this stunt on a Dutch forum then God help you.

Exactly.2 days here,and his only contribution is hate comments...let us first get to know you,maybe we all would be more tolerant towards you:rolleyes:

[Queen B]

Exactly.2 days here,and his only contribution is hate comments...let us first know you,maybe we all would be more tolerant towards you:rolleyes:

True. If he was longer here, he could call a mod a dumb twat like Dusan called me, and nothing happens to him :coffee:

[The Lawspeaker]

True. If he was longer here, he could call a mod a dumb twat like Dusan called me, and nothing happens to him :coffee:

Didn't Dusan get the boot the other day ?

[Gospodine]

Nema na čemu i nije vezano isključivo za tebe kao člana, već više za lična zapažanja.

Nisam ni mislijo na to.

Sve ostalo je bila normalna diskusija, osim kad je ona pocela napravit frka od moj nasljedstvo.

[Hurrem sultana]

True. If he was longer here, he could call a mod a dumb twat like Dusan called me, and nothing happens to him :coffee:

Dushan is story for him self,,,but calling women bad names seems to be part of the albanian/macedonian male culture:coffee:

[Queen B]

Didn't Dusan get the boot the other day ?
No.

[Linet]

Come on Dand you are Greek...you can have your religion, personality, country and beliefs insulted by anyone....the species under protection are others....you must survive alone....
if i call you a dumb bitch....its fine since you are greek...if i called you child and you are Turk or anything else...its a heavy insult....:thumbs:
...Oh....crap...i am Greek too...i dont have amnesty...oh in my case i can really get banned :blink:

[The Lawspeaker]

No.

I must be mistaken then. I thought I saw his name in grey. :confused:

[Hurrem sultana]

Come on Dand you are Greek...you can have your religion, personality, country and beliefs insulted by anyone....the species under protection are others....you must survive alone....
if i call you a dumb bitch....its fine since you are greek...if i called you child and you are Turk or anything else...its a heavy insult....:thumbs:
...Oh....crap...i am Greek too...i dont have amnesty...oh in my case i can really get banned :blink:

Have you read the insults from the albanians towards me? i see no reactions from you ,i would respect your opinion on this more if you were a bit more fair towards all sides:thumb001:


but oh well lets go back to the thread

[poiuytrewq0987]

True. If he was longer here, he could call a mod a dumb twat like Dusan called me, and nothing happens to him :coffee:

Please... I only called you that because you were repeatedly insulting my people in another thread about Bulgarian-Macedonian reconciliation... a topic of absolutely no relevance to Greeks (but I know you'll counter this with Macedonia je Greek blabla)... so mind your business.


Dushan is story for him self,,,but calling women bad names seems to be part of the albanian/macedonian male culture:coffee:

Nope, certainly not. I have high respect for women and I treat them very well. If a little well-deserved name-calling is going to make your mind about an entire people then dear lord, I can't imagine what you think of Turks who do honor killings...

[The Lawspeaker]

Please... I only called you that because you were repeatedly insulting my people in another thread about Bulgarian-Macedonian reconciliation... a topic of absolutely no relevance to Greeks (but I know you'll counter this with Macedonia je Greek blabla)... so mind your business.
.
Mind your tongue.

[Incal]

Exactly.2 days here,and his only contribution is hate comments...let us first get to know you,maybe we all would be more tolerant towards you:rolleyes:

The only intolerant person here is you, who can't tolerate any person who doesn't share your hive like mentality.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Mind your tongue.

Sorry but if Greeks try to soil my name, it won't work.

[The Lawspeaker]

Sorry but if Greeks try to soil my name, it won't work.
Your behaviour was commented on by a moderator.

[Linet]

Have you read the insults from the albanians towards me? i see no reactions from you ,i would respect your opinion on this more if you were a bit more fair towards all sides:thumb001:


but oh well lets go back to the thread

Have they ever called you names? Was i there in that thread, that they offended you and said nothing? I doubt it...and i really dont read every thread...

[Viljuska]

I don't care for Armenian nationalists, I hate them as equally as Turkish ones, but I'm not going to be prejudice towards a group of people simply because they're Orthodox Christians which seems to be your underlying motivation.
Yeah, bosnian is a hardcore nationalist and Ottoman lover.
You will not be able to explain this stuff to her :)

[poiuytrewq0987]

Your behaviour was commented on by a mod.

Dandelion commented about me for what reason? To bring up a closed case, to provoke a response from me? She certainly has succeeded in that regard.

[The Lawspeaker]

Dandelion commented about me for what reason? To bring up a closed case, to provoke a response from me? She certainly has succeeded in that regard.
She used your name as an example of a precedent that had been set. Look up the meaning of the word.

I'll even help you (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/precedent):

prec·e·dent   [n. pres-i-duhnt; adj. pri-seed-nt, pres-i-duhnt] Show IPA
noun
1.
Law . a legal decision or form of proceeding serving as an authoritative rule or pattern in future similar or analogous cases.
2.
any act, decision, or case that serves as a guide or justification for subsequent situations.
adjective pre·ce·dent
3.
preceding; anterior.

[Hurrem sultana]

Yeah, bosnian is a hardcore nationalist and Ottoman lover.
You will not be able to explain this stuff to her :)

Lol no i am not,i am against nationalism,but when i see nationalism i usually react nationalistically ...other than that,i have nothing against any people:thumb001:

[poiuytrewq0987]

She used your name as an example of a precedent that had been set. Look up the meaning of the word.

My arse, dandelion insulted my people repeatedly, and I called her that as a payback for the repeated insults by her. If you don't like it, take it up with Loki. If you don't want to talk about it then don't bring it up here. Simple as that.

[The Lawspeaker]

My arse, dandelion insulted my people repeatedly, and I called her that as a payback for the repeated insults by her. If you don't like it, take it up with Loki. If you don't want to talk about it then don't bring it up here. Simple as that.

You were corrected on your behaviour by a mod. If you seek to ignore the "advise" given to you by the mod because you would seek to undermine his authority then we can always take your case to the Staff section and talk about it there. I am giving you a very clear signal now, Dusan: shape up. Clear ?

[Queen B]

Nope, certainly not. I have high respect for women and I treat them very well. If a little well-deserved name-calling is going to make your mind about an entire people then dear lord, I can't imagine what you think of Turks who do honor killings...
If high respect is calling someone and dumb twat, I don't want to see you being non-respectfull.

[poiuytrewq0987]

You were corrected on your behaviour by a mod. If you seek to ignore the "advise" given to you by the mod because you would seek to undermine his authority then we can always take your case to the Staff section and talk about it there. I am giving you a very clear signal now, Dusan: shape up. Clear ?

Please... the case was closed long ago. Dandelion brought it up for no good reason except to soil my name without telling all the facts behind the reason why I called her that. Just because one has moderator status doesn't mean she/he will get any special treatment from me. This is the end of it.

[The Lawspeaker]

Please... the case was closed long ago. Dandelion brought it up for no good reason except to soil my name without telling all the facts behind the reason why I called her that. Just because one has moderator status doesn't mean she/he will get any special treatment from me. This is the end of it.

Very well, Dusan. You have now walked into a path which you shouldn't have taken.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Very well, Dusan. You have now walked into a path which you shouldn't have taken.

Go ahead do what you must but I am not going to kneel because you think I should. :wave:

[Queen B]

My arse, dandelion insulted my people repeatedly, and I called her that as a payback for the repeated insults by her. If you don't like it, take it up with Loki. If you don't want to talk about it then don't bring it up here. Simple as that.
Show me WHERE I insulted your people. exactly where.
But bare in mind that I can bring you to see COUNTLESS of your insults.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Show me WHERE I insulted your people. exactly where.
But bare in mind that I can bring you to see COUNTLESS of your insults.

Not going to even bother. I am sure you have already sanitized with your mod powers you have. :coffee: Now bugger off and quit with your obsession about me.

[The Lawspeaker]

Go ahead do what you must but I am not going to kneel because you think I should. :wave:

You don't have to kneel before a mod but when a mod tells you to shape up you shape up. Try messing with a copper - he'll beat you to a pulp and he arrest you. You don't seem to understand what a moderator is. Let me explain it to you: Loki is the chief of police here.. and people like Dandelion or myself wear a badge. Ignore a caution given to you will run you into trouble with the law on this forum. Do you understand ?

[Linet]

Please... the case was closed long ago. Dandelion brought it up for no good reason except to soil my name without telling all the facts behind the reason why I called her that. Just because one has moderator status doesn't mean she/he will get any special treatment from me. This is the end of it.

It has nothing to do with her being mod but with respect to the person you have a conversation with... To throw offences when you arent able to reply is a very easy method that anyone can do... i am preety sure she didnt use any offensive name against you when you on the other side did....

[poiuytrewq0987]

You don't have to kneel before a mod but when a mod tells you to shape up you shape up. Try messing with a copper - he'll beat you to a pulp and he arrest you. You don't seem to understand what a moderator is. Let me explain it to you: Loki is the chief of police here.. and people like Dandelion or myself wear a badge. Ignore a caution given to you will run you into trouble with the law on this forum. Do you understand ?

Dandelion is what we call a corrupt cop if we're using your definition of moderator-cops. :thumb001:

[Linet]

Ok...and you called me a funny bitch to a thread that you didnt like what i said....since i am not a mod, is ok i suppose...:wink:

[Onur]

Show me WHERE I insulted your people. exactly where.
But bare in mind that I can bring you to see COUNTLESS of your insults.
As much as i think this is not the place to discuss this BUT i wont be able to prevent myself because...

Take a look at your avatar Dandelion. You are calling them monkeys on a picture of their national flag.

Imho, No one should be allowed to use such an avatar, including a mod.

[Queen B]

Not going to even bother. I am sure you have already sanitized with your mod powers you have. :coffee: Now bugger off and quit with your obsession about me.

Because you ll never find any insult, and you just throw shit , to explain why you called me a dumb twat....

No problem :coffee:

[StonyArabia]

Well both sides should open the archieves and see what happened. The lobbying often tends to show one side bias and often is not willing to admit it's wrong doing. So I don't see why they don't want an open dailague.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Ok...and you called me a funny bitch to a thread that you didnt like what i said....since i am not a mod, is ok i suppose...:wink:

I didn't call you that. Don't make up sh!t about me.

[The Lawspeaker]

Dandelion is what we call a corrupt cop if we're using your definition of moderator-cops. :thumb001:

Then that is a case for internal affairs and not for you. You will still listen to that copper when the copper tells you to shape up. Because (s)he has a badge and you don't.

[Linet]

As much as i think this is not the place to discuss this BUT i wont be able to prevent myself because...

Take a look at your avatar Dandelion. You are calling them monkeys on a picture of their national flag.

Imho, No one should be allowed to use such an avatar, including a mod.

Really? want to see what he was posting the days before Dand to put that? Because i remember very well...... VERY WELL.... the flag of Greece with svastika on it and othe rnice stuff....