The Cornish are Anglo-Saxons

[Beorn]

Aberystwyth-born geneticist, Prof Steve Jones, concurs with the latest findings, saying the Welsh and the Irish are among the most homogeneous people in the world - though they remain markedly different from the English.

Prof Jones and colleagues at University College London, spent years creating a genetic map of the Y chromosome, which is passed by males from generation to generation.
The results show the Welsh are related to the Basques of northern Spain and southern France and to native Americans. All are descended from the Kets people of western Siberia.

Prof Jones, author of Y - The Descent of Man, said the Y chromosomes showed a marked difference between males on the Welsh and English side of the border.
"This shows that in the Dark Ages, when the Anglo-Saxons turned up, there was the most horrible massacre on the English side. They killed everybody and replaced them.
"The Welsh Y chromosome is similar to that of the Basques. In the male line, at least, the Welsh and the Basques are survivors or relics of a period before huge numbers of farmers filled Europe from the Middle East.
"There has been much less inter-breeding in Wales than you might expect. Wales and Ireland have the most homogenous group of males anywhere in the world."

The genetics show that the Welsh are not related to the Cornish, despite the similarity of their languages. "The Cornish are in effect Anglo-Saxons who for a time used a language that was hanging around."
The genes of Scottish males also showed considerable inter-mixing with outsiders. Prof Jones said genetics provided more reliable clues to the distant past than language. He said the Y chromosome common among Welsh males was an ancient one.

In 2001, scientists at the University of London, led by Professor David Goldstein, discovered that Welsh and Irish Celts were the "genetic blood-brothers of Basques".
Researchers concluded that the gene patterns of the three races passed down through the male line were all "strikingly similar".
Basques can trace their roots back to the Stone Age and are one of Europe's most distinct people, fiercely proud of their ancestry and traditions.

The research added to previous studies which have suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.Source (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/)

[Äike]

This is quite logical, as the Basques inhabited most of Western Europe before the Indo-European invasion.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1781/68892229.gif

[Beorn]

This is quite logical, as the Basques inhabited most of Western Europe before the Indo-European invasion.

I didn't post it for the theory of Basque inhabitation of Europe, as that has been covered to its death over the years (:D) but mainly to the outright hookey theory concerning the Cornish, etc...

I'm sure Trefelin can fill us in on his thoughts of Professor Steve Jones.

[Angantyr]

The Welsh, the Basquue and the Amerindians are all descended from the Ket?!?!

All you have to do is ignore genetics, archaeology and linguistics and that makes perfect sense.

What a ginormous pile of crap!

[Treffie]

I didn't post it for the theory of Basque inhabitation of Europe, as that has been covered to its death over the years (:D) but mainly to the outright hookey theory concerning the Cornish, etc...

I'm sure Trefelin can fill us in on his thoughts of Professor Steve Jones.

I remember reading this a while back - he's a nutjob and I don't understand why he sees the Cornish people as solely Anglo-Saxon. There was a lot of migration from Cornwall to the industrial areas of the UK, esp Wales (hence my ancestry) but not everyone left. In addition to this, Cornwall has been greatly Anglicised but the Celtic population wasn't out-bred. In any case, more recent evidence suggests that England is approximately a Celtic/Anglo-Saxon split.

As for the Ket link, I've no idea how he comes up with this either, I mean they're Siberians for goodness sake - he's clearly delusional.

[EWtt]

I guess the relation between Celts and Ket people goes as far as Y-chromosome haplogroup R and haplogroup Q having common origin from haplogroup P.

[Loki]

Prof Jones, author of Y - The Descent of Man, said the Y chromosomes showed a marked difference between males on the Welsh and English side of the border.
"This shows that in the Dark Ages, when the Anglo-Saxons turned up, there was the most horrible massacre on the English side. They killed everybody and replaced them.


Is this the final nail in the coffin for the anti-English "intellectuals", who for decades belittled the Germanic genetic contribution to the British Isles?

[Bridie]

I would be very interested in finding out about distributions of mtDNA in the British Isles. Concentrating only on Y chromosomal DNA only tells part of the story. In fact, finding out about autosomal DNA and X chromosome DNA would be interesting too.

Does anyone have any info. regarding maternal inheritance and migration patterns in the Isles? Are they consistent with Y-DNA patterns?

[Brännvin]

Maybe it might be usable for you..

European mtDNA haplogroups frequency (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml)

[Iago]

At the end of the day we are British.

I'm sick of these foreigners telling us what we are.

Let me tell you, I spit on Sweden and Estonia.

I couldn't give a flying fuck about your countries or who the fuck you are.

[Eldritch]

At the end of the day we are British.

I'm sick of these foreigners telling us what we are.

Let me tell you, I spit on Sweden and Estonia.

I couldn't give a flying fuck about your countries or who the fuck you are.

What the hell are you doing on this forum then?

[Liffrea]

Sniff.....smell like Taff to me.:D

They weren't labelled the "west Welsh" for nothing.....

[Imperivm]

What do you folks make of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgqjLMESS78&feature=related

[antonio]

The Welsh, the Basquue and the Amerindians are all descended from the Ket?!?!

All you have to do is ignore genetics, archaeology and linguistics and that makes perfect sense.

What a ginormous pile of crap!

I always regard Welsh former footballer and trainer John Benjamin Toshack as some kind of overfeeded Amazonian native...and Basques too. :D

[Osweo]

To be honest, I can't be bothered reading the original article.

I will say this, however; Cornwall's position makes it less likely a refuge for older pre-Celtic Britons, than many parts of Wales.

I would expect more input from the 'original' Continental Celtics in the Dumnonian peninsula, and would say the same for the greater part of England, where this type has survived the Germanic invasions genetically, if not ethnoculturally.

[Jarl]

Odd statement. Particularly if one pays a visit to Cornwall's old cemetaries... The ethnicity is extinct, though there is some degree of local identity. However, to claim they are "Anglo-Saxons" is a bit of a wishful thinking.

[Osweo]

Odd statement. Particularly if one pays a visit to Cornwall's old cemetaries...
Why? What do you see there?
I live just over the border, in Devon, and have been in Cornwall quite a bit lately. I go to see the parish churches when I can, in hope of early mediaeval sculpture, mostly, but I look at the graves outside too, from simple nosiness. Graves both old and new show a high proportion of peculiarly Cornish surnames, most of non-English origin from a linguistic point of view.

The ethnicity is extinct, though there is some degree of local identity.
The language died out. The Cornish stayed where they were. There is an immense sense of local identity.

I think you could call it ethnic, indeed. The thing is, the way we talk about these matters here on such fora is not how ordinary working men and women talk. That's why people are a bit iffy about whether the Cornish are an 'ethnicity' or not; this is not a natural English word, but a learned term.

It might be a good idea to approach this like a trained poll-taker, market researcher or political surveyor; Don't ask a Cornishman or an Englishman whether there are ethnic differences between them. Ask other subtler questions, that have more deeper connections to what 'ethnicity' actually is.

I suppose a lot of the relevant points of the 'ethnicity checklist' would receive a 'tick'.

However, to claim they are "Anglo-Saxons" is a bit of a wishful thinking.
Nah, it's pure idiocy!

Though Cornish nationalists should acknowledge that there IS an Anglo-Saxon influence in Cornwall, even in BLOOD. There was some early penetration of West Saxons across the Tamar.

[Jarl]

Graves both old and new show a high proportion of peculiarly Cornish surnames, most of non-English origin from a linguistic point of view.

And that is what I hand on my mind! ;) Not many Norfolk Angles or Essex Saxons burried there.

[Albion]

Is this the final nail in the coffin for the anti-English "intellectuals", who for decades belittled the Germanic genetic contribution to the British Isles?

Yes, Germanic peoples have had quite a bad press since WWII when governments decided to link "Germanic / Teutonic" with Hitler's concept of "Aryanism"


[QUOTE=Iago;150329]At the end of the day we are British.

I'm sick of these foreigners telling us what we are.

Let me tell you, I spit on Sweden and Estonia.

I couldn't give a flying fuck about your countries or who the fuck you are.

What the hell man?! What have they done to us? Nothing! The Swedes and Estonians amongst other peoples have been quite good to us I think (and we're not exactly a easy country to get along with).
Most research on British origins is done by just that, Brits, although there's Oppenheimer who's done a bit on it too, he's a German Jew.

[Óttar]

What do you folks make of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgqjLMESS78&feature=related
Indeed, what do you folks make of this. :confused:

[Liffrea]

This tends to be quite a contentious area with certain types getting a hard on over their pet theories, on the one hand we have those who insist the English are “Celts” who forgot all about it, the other group tend to be various sorts who insist the English are “Germanic” and part of some mythical North Sea continuity, personally I find both theories idiotic. Even if we can speak of some type of “Celtic” and “Germanic” over group in the 21st century certainly neither label applies to the English. All cultures arise from various elements but more so in the case of people’s like the English, Scottish and French. Celtic? Germanic? Germano-Celt? No, just English it is the only label that has any meaning and the only one I feel we need.

[Libertas]

No they are not!

[Nglund]

YES THEY ARE!

[Libertas]

Don't be frivolous.
They are tall and dark-haired as a group and show few Anglo-Saxon traits.
Their Celtic language persisted until the 18th century.

[Treffie]

I always regard Welsh former footballer and trainer John Benjamin Toshack as some kind of overfeeded Amazonian native...and Basques too. :D

Funny, I always thought that Toshack was an east European surname. Turns out that it originates in Fife, Scotland (http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Toshack-family-history-sct.ashx). Also found this;

MCINTOSH
Definition: Son of the chieftain, with -in- meaning 'the' and -tosh- representing Toshack, from the Welsh 'tywysog' meaning 'prince.'

[Osweo]

Funny, I always thought that Toshack was an east European surname. Turns out that it originates in Fife, Scotland (http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Toshack-family-history-sct.ashx).

Heh, like those Slavonic Flintoffs, McCluskeys and Toaduffs! :D



Also found this;

MCINTOSH
Definition: Son of the chieftain, with -in- meaning 'the' and -tosh- representing Toshack, from the Welsh 'tywysog' meaning 'prince.'

'From' might be stretching it, as it may be a cognate from the common ancestor;

This interesting name is of Scottish origin, and derives from the Old Gaelic "toisech" which has the meaning "chief, leader" or "front man". In modern Gaelic the spelling is "Taoiseach" (the title given to the Irish head of Government). The word also occurs in Old Welsh as a proper name, "Torisaci", and in modern Welsh is found as "tywysog", prince. There appears to have been two original septs of this name, one in Perthshire and the other in Inverness.

Read more: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/mackintosh#ixzz1Nh5uD7kn

[Bridie]

Don't be frivolous.
They are tall and dark-haired as a group and show few Anglo-Saxon traits.
Their Celtic language persisted until the 18th century.

Hard to know what Anglo-Saxon traits are exactly....

[Osweo]

Hard to know what Anglo-Saxon traits are exactly....

Perfidy, hypocrisy and bloody-mindedness. That's why you all luv us so. :D

Actually, I'd say it was pretty much impossible for an ethnic group comprising more than 500 inbreds to have a common look. Obviously, there will be certain recogniseable types, but never just one. Our older authors were either woefully simplistic in this respect, or have been read by moderns in a lazy simplistic way. :p

[Boudica]

Who the f&^% are the Cornish?

[Wyn]

Who the f&^% are the Cornish?

A Brythonic people, as Boadicea's people were.

Or perhaps they are in fact Germanic, who knows at this point? ;) They are native to Cornwall, regardless. That you've never even heard of them is alarming.

[Jack B]

Who the f&^% are the Cornish?

The people of Cornwall.

[Osweo]

Who the FUCK is Boadicea?

The correct spelling is 'Boudicca'. ;)

As for the Cornish, well... Americans who are not especially interested in savoury pastry confections, ancient metallurgical trade routes or early modern piracy don't really need to know. Rest easy in your ignorance, or learn to use Google and/or Wikip(a)edia.

[Treffie]

Who the f&^% are the Cornish?

Seeing as you've given yourself an ancient Celtic name, I would have thought that you would have been more versed in the ancient Brits ;)

[Boudica]

Who the FUCK is Boadicea?

The correct spelling is 'Boudicca'. ;)

As for the Cornish, well... Americans who are not especially interested in savoury pastry confections, ancient metallurgical trade routes or early modern piracy don't really need to know. Rest easy in your ignorance, or learn to use Google and/or Wikip(a)edia.

Boadicea is a way that it can alternatively be spelled, it can also be spelled boudicca, and in welsh as buddug, but thank you. Your a funny one, calm down though, I did not mean to offend your Cornish people, I have heard of them numerous times but I could not recall exactly who they were/what they did. But thank you everyone for such helpful answers :) I'm a human being, I guess I just forget things some times god forbid that. :lol00002:

[Bridie]

Boadicea is a way that it can alternatively be spelled, it can also be spelled boudicca, and in welsh as buddug, but thank you. Your a funny one, calm down though, I did not mean to offend your Cornish people, I have heard of them numerous times but I could not recall exactly who they were. :lol00002:

Os is Irish, not Cornish. ;)

[Boudica]

God, you people are friendly :D I'll stop posting in the thread now, I shall stop being so ignorant for forgetting details about these people! I shall never ask people who obviously know about them again in a joking matter! Blasphemy! :eek:

[Osweo]

Boadicea is a way that it can alternatively be spelled,
A demonstrated scribal error, rather. :coffee: Not an 'alternative', but an irritatingly widespread and self-perpetuating mistake.

I have heard of them numerous times but I could not recall exactly who they were/what they did.
They still exist. Despite my best efforts. :tsk:

Os is Irish, not Cornish. ;)
:rage:
SOWS ov vy! :D

I shall stop being so ignorant for forgetting details about these people!

I consider who the FUCK I am to be rather more than a detail about myself. ;)

[Boudica]

I'm sure it was a scribal error, my dearest scholar. looove you <3

http://www.sendflowerstomumbai.com/images/uae-roses-heart.jpg

[Berrocscir]

There's a different cultural 'vibe' in Cornwall, that's for sure. It's possible this is due to victorian romanticism of course.

[supergiovane]

Jessie J.'s last name is Cornish.

[Beorn]

The Cornish have a ceremony of digging a trench between them and England.

Thought I might just add this. :)

[Albion]

The Cornish have a ceremony of digging a trench between them and England.

Thought I might just add this. :)

Who cares, they can fill it with aligators for all I care, England subsidises the whole county and there are no excuses such as oil for them either.
Ungrateful bastards.

[The Ripper]

I've been watching the HBO series called Deadwood, and in it appear numerous Cornish miners, known for their "Clannish behaviour" and labour organizational activities, making them a pain in the ass for the capitalists exploiting the gold finds. There's also a few scenes where we hear them discussing in Cornish, but this must be a mistake, I understood the language died out already before the end of the 19th century?

[Beorn]

Ungrateful bastards.

Extremist nationalists are a bitch. I'd say the rest of the Cornish are grateful, but 'can we have our land back now, please?'


I've been watching the HBO series called Deadwood, and in it appear numerous Cornish miners, known for their "Clannish behaviour" and labour organizational activities, making them a pain in the ass for the capitalists exploiting the gold finds. There's also a few scenes where we hear them discussing in Cornish, but this must be a mistake, I understood the language died out already before the end of the 19th century?

Depends really. My grandad could just about speak Cornish (to himself) but could have a conversation on par with a Cornishman via a letter.

I wouldn't be so surprised to learn of insular communities living in The Great America who spoke Cornish.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

:)

[Osweo]

Even in 1815 you'd have trouble finding anyone who could string a Cornish sentence together with decent grammar. Stop pulling the legs of the poor foreigners, Beorni! :p

[Albion]

The Cornish language has been revived but is largely a joke, it is the bastard offspring of Welsh and Breton mixed in with rare relics of Cornish proper.
Another conlang.

[Treffie]

The Cornish language has been revived but is largely a joke, it is the bastard offspring of Welsh and Breton mixed in with rare relics of Cornish proper.
Another conlang.

It's definitely not a conlang :confused:

[Albion]

It's definitely not a conlang :confused:


A planned or constructed language—known colloquially as a conlang—is a language whose phonology, grammar, and/or vocabulary has been consciously devised by an individual or group, instead of having evolved naturally.

Cornish evolved naturally, then died out, then was glued back together with Welsh and Breton filling in the gaps in Unified Cornish.

[Osweo]

I looked into the various disputes about resurrecting Cornish some fifteen or so years ago. Celtabria is being unnecessarily harsh about the efforts that have been made. We do after all have some very substantial texts in the language, and the 'gap filling' is far more thought out than merely taking stuff from the sister tongues.

I wish you'd get a more bloody English name, and all! :rage :D

[Albion]

I looked into the various disputes about resurrecting Cornish some fifteen or so years ago. Celtabria is being unnecessarily harsh about the efforts that have been made. We do after all have some very substantial texts in the language, and the 'gap filling' is far more thought out than merely taking stuff from the sister tongues.

Well I suppose its better than the attempts at bringing Cumbric back from the dead anyway. I think its been dead too long and too little survives for that.


I wish you'd get a more bloody English name, and all! :rage :D

Who, me? Celtabria is useful, nobody else on the internet uses it and so it is unique, it is just a name I invented. My real name is not much better either, Greek-derived first name, Celtic substratum English surname.

[Logan]

Extremist nationalists are a bitch. I'd say the rest of the Cornish are grateful, but 'can we have our land back now, please?'

It was decided long ago.

'In 814 Egbert, with Coenwulf’s permission, led a vigorous war against the West Welsh of Damnonia (Devon), whom previous kings had left unmolested. He laid the land to waste , and compelled its king to do him homage. Egbert regarded 814 as an important year in the growth of his power. For his charters of 826 are dated “in the twenty-fourth year of his kingly power, and the fourteenth since he obtained his suzerainty,” meaning he had become a overlord over princes, and these must be those of Damnonia. He annexed what remained of Devonshire to his dominions at this date, leaving only Cornwall to the native kings'

815-824

'Cornwall was always an important strategic point for the fleets. Egbert’s interest in Cornwall marked the beginning of a new chapter in his reign. In 815 he “laid waste West Wales (Cornwall) from eastward to westward.” Egbert compelled the king of Cornwall to do him homage, he annexed what remained of Devonshire to his realm, leaving only Cornwall to the Cornish king. Afterward he forced the king of Cornwall to hand over to the West Saxon church a tenth part of that area.'

Alfred the Great held properties in East Cornwall. The English incursions were more extensive durning and after the time of Athelstan. Many of the towns and places are English as is Callington and Camelford. Both these two named and others as well relate to the conquest. Have a look at a modern or an old phone directory. The dialect of East Cornwall is more Devonshire and less West Cornwall. That East Cornwall is and has been for centuries predominately English is no mystery. :cool:

[Boudica]

Wait, everything that I've heard of the Cornish says that they are completely different..?

[Logan]

Wait, everything that I've heard of the Cornish says that they are completely different..?

How so? Perhaps I made little sense or you heard wrongly.

[Boudica]

How so?

I thought that they were seen as being distinct from the English and having more in common with the other Celtic areas of the UK like Wales and other Celtic places.. I also thought that they were regarded as being an ancient group of people..

[Logan]

I thought that they were seen as being distinct from the English and having more in common with the other Celtic areas of the UK like Wales and other Celtic places.. I also thought that they were regarded as being an ancient group of people..


You are not wrong at all. I was making attempt at addressing some queries posted earlier in the thread.

What I related is nonetheless true as well. That the population relates to a Celtic Cornish Tradition is not too dissimilar, to someone in a particular American State identifing themselves as such, whether or not their ancestry does in fact go very far back in the area. The East bit of Cornwall has for a very long time been more English than Old Cornish.

This is not ment to disrespect the old Cornish, but to remember the others. West Cornwall is more what you might have in mind.

[Logan]

Extremist nationalists are a bitch. I'd say the rest of the Cornish are grateful, but 'can we have our land back now, please?'

http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~harvey/UK/cornwall.gif

http://www.kaniksu.com/maps/districts/maps/old-cornwall-map.jpg

'Around 710, Ina, King of the West Saxons, attempted to destroy Dumnonia. Over the next fifty years, several battles took place with the Saxons mainly victorious. However, in 722, Roderic, King of the Britons in Wales and Cornwall, repelled Adelred, King of Wessex. In 807 Viking Danes formed an alliance with the Cornish against the Saxons. The Saxon, Egbert of Wessex conquered Cornwall in 814 but was unsuccessful in subjugating the people despite having laid waste the land. The Cornish eventually rose against Egbert only to be defeated at Galford on the River Lew in West Devon.

In 838 a Cornish-Danish alliance was initially successful in a number of skirmishes with Egbert, but was eventually defeated in a pitched battle at Hingston Down, near Callington. This was the last battle against the Saxons.

In 878 Doniert, king of the Cornish, was drowned in the River Fowey. Doniert’s Stone stands in St. Cleer parish. This comprises of the stumps of two 9th century stones bearing Latin inscriptions and intricate patterns

Athelstan, the grandson of Alfred, attacked the south western Celts in 927, forcing their withdrawal from Exeter. There is no record of him taking his campaigns into Cornwall. It seems probable that Hywel, King of the Cornish, agreed to pay tribute thus avoiding further attacks and maintaining a high degree of autonomy. This supposition is supported by the fact that, in 931 King Athelstan set up a bishopric at St. Germans.

In 936 Athelstan’s settlement had fixed the east bank of the River Tamar as the boundary between Anglo-Saxon Wessex and Celtic Cornwall. The river still marks the division between Cornwall and Devon...'

http://www.cornwalls.co.uk/history/ancient/

This being the political division. The English settlemens, and people remain to this day.

[Albion]

The dialect of East Cornwall is more Devonshire and less West Cornwall. That East Cornwall is and has been for centuries predominately English is no mystery

...

The East bit of Cornwall has for a very long time been more English than Old Cornish.

This is not ment to disrespect the old Cornish, but to remember the others. West Cornwall is more what you might have in mind.

Indeed, I have long held the view that Cornwall's border should be drawn closer to Truro.
The only problem is then you'd get Cornish Nationalists decrying "Devonwall" even though the East isn't actually Cornish and hasn't been since Cornwall's conquest.

[Cedric]

They don't want independence. They want to remain a part of the UK. They want devolution and recognition as a constituent country? At least that's what I've heard...

[Albion]

They don't want independence. They want to remain a part of the UK. They want devolution and recognition as a constituent country? At least that's what I've heard...

Most Cornish Nationalists I've seen have wanted to remain within the UK with a devolved assembly akin to that in Wales. Cornish Nationalists do look a lot to Wales as their example.
I suppose there's nothing wrong with that, but England should get a good devolution settlement too.

Of course it does raise the question whether the UK government has the authority to change the borders of the two united kingdoms - England and Scotland.
Already we have seen some waters in the Solway Firth pass to Scotland and although Wales has been given self government, it is uncertain whether if the UK were to break up what would be the relationship between them and England since Wales was incorporated into England in a previous act of union.

It'd be interesting to know if Wales and England still are essentially one nation, with one part being autonomous (Wales) or two separate nations now. I suppose they're still one nation, since most laws still apply to both England and Wales.

If the UK were to breakup, I think for all intents and purposes England, Wales and Cornwall would probably stay together, perhaps with devolution for Wales and Cornwall and perhaps England (although I don't hold my breath).
In law, laws can be said to be by the 'Laws of England and Wales' or 'Laws of England', so a remnant UK made up of the three would probably become known as 'England and Wales' with Cornwall as an autonomous area of England.

Wales and Cornwall have been with England for a long time and in a large part their economies rely on England.
As much as they might complain about England, I don't think there is a strong movement for breaking away - they seem to be content so long as they get self government.

A UK without Scotland and Northern Ireland would almost certainly continue to include England, Wales and Cornwall, a settlement whereby they all get self-rule within a federation wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Burgomaster]

Genetically, the Cornish people are the most 'Friesian' people to live in the South West of England (in 65%+ of the Cornish population is more similar, genetically, to the Friesians than the Welsh). In actual fact, the English county with the highest 'Briton' population is Dorset, where over 60% of the population is genetically very similar to the Welsh. FACT! ;)

[Libertas]

Well the Cornish certainly don't LOOK Frisian. The survey is faulty.

Cornishmen are mainly dark-haired or brown-haired with far less blond hair in adults than Frisians.

[Logan]

Genetically, the Cornish people are the most 'Friesian' people to live in the South West of England (in 65%+ of the Cornish population is more similar, genetically, to the Friesians than the Welsh). In actual fact, the English county with the highest 'Briton' population is Dorset, where over 60% of the population is genetically very similar to the Welsh. FACT! ;)

Entirely possible. It would be interesting to see your source.


Well the Cornish certainly don't LOOK Frisian. The survey is faulty.

Cornishmen are mainly dark-haired or brown-haired with far less blond hair in adults than Frisians.

Depends greatly upon the area of. It is a different mixture.

[Osweo]

Is this 'Frisian' thing just male haplogroups? Entirely inappropriate to talk of such data in this way. :coffee:

[Logan]

Is this 'Frisian' thing just male haplogroups? Entirely inappropriate to talk of such data in this way. :coffee:

Awaiting the source. I would not think it to be. Haplogroups do indicate population movements; however, a 65% Frisian likeness would not mean a 65% population movement, but rather the survival or success of in a particular location at the time of reckoning.

I do not believe that MtDNA can be of an equal use, nor can a DeCODEme's genome test. We seem at present to be left with the many traditional methods amongst which is physical observation and NRY.

[Osweo]

and NRY.

The North Riding of Yorkshire. :suomut:

[Logan]

The North Riding of Yorkshire. :suomut:

:D or Non Recombinant Ydna

[Imperivm]

I had always thought that Cornwall, and most of the West country are the most 'Old Briton' looking peoples? You tend to find a lot of brown/blue eyed gracile mediterranid people. My paternal side has the typical West country mediterranid look about it (also note my haplotype). However, note the amount of people that moved about since the Industrial Revolution- for example: my surname was almost entirely found in Devon, but when the railway network was fully laid down in the West country you start to see more of my name found across the south of England. I wonder if any physical anthropology studies were done before the railways were built? :icon_ask:

[Logan]

A few decades after the new mode of transportation.
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/beddoe1.jpg
I wouldn't think Professor Beddoe to be too far off in method or in general observational conclusions.

[MacGomery]

I am about 1/4 English . My last name Plumley is Engilsh . My family came to the colonies from Wells , Pirdy , Somerset. From the the welsh border theory you would think all the Native Brits and Celts were slaughtered by Saxons on the other side of the border . Would the Native Somersetshire folk be mostly Germanic? I also had some family came from Halifax Yorkshire area. I am over half lowland Scots ( Ayrshire ) by way of Northern Ireland to America. Montgomery , Wallace , Brown , Walker , Gordon , and Seton.

[Libertas]

A few decades after the new mode of transportation.
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/beddoe1.jpg
I wouldn't think Professor Beddoe to be too far off in method or in general observational conclusions.

Professor Beddoe described local types in his "Races of Britain" and the Cornish were very different in his view from the blonder more "Saxon" types in say Hampshire and taller and darker than neighbouring Devon.

[Logan]

I am about 1/4 English . My last name Plumley is Engilsh . My family came to the colonies from Wells , Pirdy , Somerset. From the the welsh border theory you would think all the Native Brits and Celts were slaughtered by Saxons on the other side of the border . Would the Native Somersetshire folk be mostly Germanic? I also had some family came from Halifax Yorkshire area. I am over half lowland Scots ( Ayrshire ) by way of Northern Ireland to America. Montgomery , Wallace , Brown , Walker , Gordon , and Seton.

Mine is English as well. The origin of which is a Domesday Manor in the South-East. The Ydna is thought to be of the North Sea Germanic People. Its location might attest to the English incursions.

I believe most of the total slaughtering to have been in the early period. I read somewhere that it was not uncommon to have been given the option to surrender. Survival of women, and entire populations in some areas is not in doubt.


Professor Beddoe described local types in his "Races of Britain" and the Cornish were very different in his view from the blonder more "Saxon" types in say Hampshire and taller and darker than neighbouring Devon.

http://www.cornwall-beaches.co.uk/images/districts-map.gif

I do not think him without error. From his map, and from many other sources it can be seen that Cornwall differs from East to West. I am not convinced that the English type was a ever a pure race. Much as you might find a latter Viking with the discriptive name of Erik the Black.

[Osweo]

Was Beddoe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Beddoe)really a 'professor'? :sherlock: He was a doctor, and a gifted man who did what he could with the limited means at his disposal in the 1860s, but he wasn't a career scholar.

[Logan]

Was Beddoe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Beddoe)really a 'professor'? :sherlock: He was a doctor, and a gifted man who did what he could with the limited means at his disposal in the 1860s, but he wasn't a career scholar.:eek:



A late Victorian scholar. I recalled only at bit of what is below. Ta. Benjamin Franklin received honorary doctorates from the University of St. Andrews 1759, and the University of Oxford 1762. Beddoe it would seem, in a stricter sense, lacked the recognition that he well deserved. Another Sherlock Holmes.:cool:

John Beddoe

M.D., F.R.S & C

Ex-President of the Anthropologacai Society of London and of the Bristol Naturalist's Society, Foreign Associate of the Anthropological Society of Paris,
Corresponding Member of the Anthropological Society of Berlin, Honorary Member of the Anthropological Societies of Brussels and of Washington and of the Philosophical Institute of Bath.

[Albion]

The Cornish are Cornish

The English are English

Honestly, who cares whether they're Celtic or Germanic? So long as they aren't something totally awful like Somalis or anything that isn't European then I'm not bothered.

The end.

[Logan]

English has many meanings. It can refer to one born in or resides in an English county. Cornwall is as much English as is Yorkshire. I would not think being Cornish and being English to be a dichotomy. I always considered myself both. This thread exists due to a wee minority within Cornwall.

[Septentrion]

The Welsh, the Basquue and the Amerindians are all descended from the Ket?!?!

All you have to do is ignore genetics, archaeology and linguistics and that makes perfect sense.

What a ginormous pile of crap!

What nonsense is this? Are you O.K.? Welsh are Britons, Basques are Iberians, both Welsh and Basques are Europids! Amerindians are not Europids, I believe they'll be insulted to be group with the Basques or "pale faces" such as the Welsh.

[Septentrion]

Source (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/)

Garbage.

[Septentrion]

The Cornish are English, firstly because Cornwall is a county in the South-West England region. Though Cornwall was most likely the last part of England to be conquered by the Saxons. Cornish resisted Saxon invasion longer than any other Celtic kingdom outside of Wales. Cornwall is actually part of the Celtic Nations of Europe, too. However the " Germanic" cast among the Cornish is higher than among the Welsh. For example, Germanic paternal lineages account for 45% of all Cornish males in comparison to 25% for the Welsh. So Cornwall is genetically less Germanic than the rest of England, but still as Germanic as the most Germanic part of France (Nord-Pas-de-Calais).

[Septentrion]

Don't be frivolous.
They are tall and dark-haired as a group and show few Anglo-Saxon traits.
Their Celtic language persisted until the 18th century.

Stop relying on myths. The Cornish are not as dark as you might think, approximately 30% have blond hair and 3% red hair. Cornwall is not the darkest-haires county in England, contrary to some old perception of the Cornish.