Reform or withdrawal from the EU?

[Albion]

In Britain there is currently a bit of a debate within the ruling coalition about whether Britain should withdraw from the EU. Some argue it should and that this would enable it to seek new trading partners around the world whereas others claim reform is all that is needed.
Generally speaking most people in Britain whether Euroskeptic or not think that EU powers go beyond what is necessary and interfere too much with the governing of the country.

To me the EU is a good idea but in its current form it is very badly implemented. I like the idea of European co-operation but the EU just goes too far.


So the question is this - personally would you like to see the EU reformed, your country withdraw from it or for it to remain as it is at the moment?


Pros and cons of the EU:

Pros:


Large, single market (largest in the world in fact)
Standards set across the continent for many things
Support for farming and industries
Allows countries to speak with one voice thus giving greater influence (should in theory, but not always in practice).
Makes it harder for external countries to manipulate members (although internal countries often still do that).
Trade agreements with most countries in the world that matter.


Cons:


Undemocratic
Too much interference
Often overrules national parliaments or fines countries that don't do as they're told
Too many rules and regulations that infringe upon sovereignty
The CAP - nice idea, but in practice it needs reform. At the moment it benefits French and Southern European farmers much more than Northern European states.
Common Fisheries Policy - throwing excess fish overboard, dead into the sea? What muppet thought up that one? Also it has openned national waters to international fleets and led to seas such as the North Sea being depleted
The Euro - bad idea from the start. In my opinion it should be gradually phased out and replaced back with national or regional currencies.
Schengen agreement - originally not part of the EU. It was a bad idea though, especially since much of Eastern Europe has porous borders and should be replaced by border posts or smaller, regional movement areas (such as Common Travel Area)




Ultimately myself I want EU to be greatly reformed (and Euro phased out) but I doubt this will ever happen. To leave the EU would probably be a mistake, but it cannot be allowed to continue as it is at the moment.

So what do you think, what are your opinions?

[The Lawspeaker]

I think that the EU cannot be reformed... and thus the Netherlands should withdraw. We can remain in the Common Market if we would join the EFTA first.

[Graham]

UKIP are correct about it being a token statement from the Tory party. Cameron has already promised a referndum.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.


We don't need the EU & scaremongering. You can't make an artificial country that pulls in all sorts of directions.

[arcticwolf]

Withdrawal, no doubt.

[Moonbird]

Schengen agreement - originally not part of the EU. It was a bad idea though, especially since much of Eastern Europe has porous borders and should be replaced by border posts or smaller, regional movement areas (such as Common Travel Area)


It was actually the Schengen agreement that made me turn against the idea of EU. But even if it was to be removed I now support a withdrawal.

[Tel Errant]

1)Reform the EU and get out of Schengen and the Eurozone. I don't see the beneficit of a total withdrawal from the common market.

2)Reactivate the Françafrique (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7afrique) networks and invest massively in Africa, giving up volontarilly such a rich land to the Chineses is stupid.

[ficuscarica]

I want a GIP version of the UKIP. Basically I share the position of Nigel Farage.

[Pretan]

I voted UKIP at last election, my motive is clear.

[Partiasn]

Pros:


Large, single market (largest in the world in fact)
Standards set across the continent for many things
Support for farming and industries
Allows countries to speak with one voice thus giving greater influence (should in theory, but not always in practice).
Makes it harder for external countries to manipulate members (although internal countries often still do that).
Trade agreements with most countries in the world that matter.




These are all really cons if you examine them closely.


Large, single market (largest in the world in fact)

You already have that with cross nation Internet economy, It does not need a governing body to regulate it. And because of that there is no barrier for entry.


Standards set across the continent for many things

Standards set by governing bodies, generally are both politically motivated and stall innovation. The EU is not needed for standards.


Support for farming and industries

Also bad.
The only industries that will receive support is large centralized corporations, who don't give a dam about local industry or small business.
In fact they will do everything in their power to stamp it out. Which in the current energy decline world will hurt you further on down the road.


Allows countries to speak with one voice thus giving greater influence (should in theory, but not always in practice).


Maybe but it will be a compromised influence where NO ONE gets what they came to the table for.

Makes it harder for external countries to manipulate members (although internal countries often still do that).


That one you answered yourself.
"(although internal countries often still do that)."


Trade agreements with most countries in the world that matter.


Trade Agreements with countries, boils down to trade agreements with governments, and those governments don't contribute a dam thing to the input or production. Wast, more wast, and fraud on top of that.

Trade Agreements should be made by local municipalities or companies in your own area, that way >>YOU<< will get the benefit, not some governing body or corporate CEO.

[Damião de Góis]

I don't remember life without the EU since i was too young when we joined, so i can't say if we were better before. But i definitely can say we were better before the Euro.

However, it's known that the EU killed our fishing and agriculture in exchange for "funds".

[Graham]

Does a Large, single market not bring about uncompetitive artificialness? Kind of what it's like now.

A centralised European Union, where the majority of countries slump.

[The Lawspeaker]

Does a Large, single market not bring about uncompetitive artificialness? Kind of what it's like now.

A centralised European Union, where the majority of countries slump.

It can also protect us from Chinese imports.

[Graham]

It can also protect us from Chinese imports.

All we get from China is a fucking Panda! We had to pay for. :mad:

[The Lawspeaker]

All we get from China is a fucking Panda! We had to pay for. :mad:

How about all the stuff that is now made in China ?

[Partiasn]

It can also protect us from Chinese imports.

How can a large wasteful bureaucracy, protect you form Chinese Imports???

Here is an Idea, Open Source the products, trash things like Patent Laws and Copyright, and produce most or all the simple products locally.

Seems really stupid to transport raw materials all over the world to make simple items.

The only thing that makes this economic model work is >> LEGAL RESTRICTION<<. If we keep using this sort of wasteful economic model we will exhaust the earth's resources, and most likely not have a planet left to live on.

If you can see my point?

[The Lawspeaker]

How can a large wasteful bureaucracy, protect you form Chinese Imports???

Here is an Idea, Open Source the products, trash things like Patent Laws and Copyright, and produce most or all the simple products locally.

Seems really stupid to transport raw materials all over the world to make simple items.

The only thing that makes this economic model work is >> LEGAL RESTRICTION<<. If we keep using this sort of wasteful economic model we will exhaust the earth's resources, and most likely not have a planet left to live on.
That's idiotic. The only ones that would benefit from it would be the Chinese since they then can freely copy and sell traditional European products such as regional products under the original names.

[Pretan]

It's about time the "Conservative" Party here in the UK gave us an EU referendum, like they promised. I doubt they will though, despite many true-conservative backbenchers campaigning for it, they are outnumbered by Neo-Cons and Career politicians within the party. The Career politicians know the British public would vote overwhelmingly against the EU and thus will never give us the choice, claiming that it "isn't the right time".(the "right time" being when the opinion polls suite them, which will never happen much like our referendum)

Millions of British soldiers have died over the centuries defending British Sovereignty and Independance, for these traitors to give it away is nothing more than High Treason. Which deserves nothing more than :flynch:

[Osprey]

The EU is arguably a drain on the British
economy. A huge amount of money given
to the EU is allocated to bureaucracy and
wasteful spending such as the Common
Agricultural Policy (CAP). In 2006, a
whopping 45% EU spending went towards the CAP. To put this in perspective, that's almost half EU
spending allocated towards an industry
that employs only 5% EU citizens and generates 1.6% GDP. This is truly unneccessary and is unequally
distributed, France reportedly benefitting
immensely, while countries with very
little agricultural sectors seeing few
benefits, and yet expected to foot the bill
for this wasteful policy.

[Partiasn]

That's idiotic. The only ones that would benefit from it would be the Chinese since they then can freely copy and sell traditional European products such as regional products under the original names.

I'm not sure what a "traditional European products" are.

In any-case the technology wave will not be held back and the realty with the arrival of Robotics to manufacturing, most of the stuff we are producing around the world can be almost produced for free, on a local basis.

That means It would be cheaper for Europeans to manufacture their own products than to transport resources to China, manufacture the goods, the ship it back to China.

7-Eu1gAgVFE
4Tx-YjzVgtM
k-mfRsIBcAw

Ironically I think Nationalism is the key to making most of this work, because there is going to have to be, small committed groups of people that are willing to dump, the current system for a better future life.

[The Lawspeaker]

I'm not sure what a "traditional European products" are.

Exactly. And that's why you should stay out of European affairs. A European would know exactly what I am talking about. :thumb001:

[Partiasn]

Exactly. And that's why you should stay out of European affairs. A European would know exactly what I am talking about. :thumb001:

I would not say that I am overly concerned at what Europeans do financially because it more or less does not affect my life.

On the other hand I am concerned with what happens to individual Germanic cultures.

At this point I do not like the idea of any group tying themselves to a sinking ship, and think that looking forward to what might happen in the future is a good idea.

On the other hand forcing a decision on any group or individual is not really what I believe in. So they are free to do as they see fit.

[The Lawspeaker]

I would not say that I am overly concerned at what Europeans do financially because it more or less does not affect my life.

On the other hand I am concerned with what happens to individual Germanic cultures.

At this point I do not like the idea of any group tying themselves to a sinking ship, and think that looking forward to what might happen in the future is a good idea.

On the other hand forcing a decision on any group or individual is not really what I believe in. So they are free to do as they see fit.
And that's exactly the problem. What do you think would happen to traditional local products (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_origin) (like Edammer cheese, for example) if all patents would be relinquished ? Let me tell you what would happen: the Chinese would take over everything.

[Albion]

I think that the EU cannot be reformed... and thus the Netherlands should withdraw. We can remain in the Common Market if we would join the EFTA first.

Maybe so, I suppose we'll see if it reforms over the next for years.


UKIP are correct about it being a token statement from the Tory party. Cameron has already promised a referndum.

I know what you mean, he isn't really for leaving the EU as he claims. That what he announced recently was just a lie, he used the vaguest language possible when talking about it - he doesn't want a referendum at all.

UKIP are basically just old fashioned Tories really.


I want a GIP version of the UKIP. Basically I share the position of Nigel Farage.

I always find it hilarious when he addresses the European Parliament, the stiff upper lip thing is soon forgotten. :D

[Graham]

I know what you mean, he isn't really for leaving the EU as he claims. That what he announced recently was just a lie, he used the vaguest language possible when talking about it - he doesn't want a referendum at all.

UKIP are basically just old fashioned Tories really.


Cameron has more in common with Tony Blair than the Tory back benchers who are practically UKIP.

[PetiteParisienne]

I pretty much agree with you entirely. Major reform is needed at the very least.

[Albion]

2)Reactivate the Françafrique (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7afrique) networks and invest massively in Africa, giving up volontarilly such a rich land to the Chineses is stupid.

We should emulate this, help the Africans develop whilst doing well from the deal ourselves.



You already have that with cross nation Internet economy, It does not need a governing body to regulate it. And because of that there is no barrier for entry.


An internet economy based on trading physical goods is held back by red tape in each member state anyway. It is an area where the EU hasn't regulated it much yet.


Standards set by governing bodies, generally are both politically motivated and stall innovation. The EU is not needed for standards.

It does to an extent. When you have a lot of little countries there is a need to have similar standards with some things.


Also bad.
The only industries that will receive support is large centralized corporations, who don't give a dam about local industry or small business.
In fact they will do everything in their power to stamp it out. Which in the current energy decline world will hurt you further on down the road.


Well the money from CAP goes to farmers, not so much corporations.


That one you answered yourself.
"(although internal countries often still do that)."

I was speaking more of America and Russia as the external countries, Germany and France run the show within the EU whilst Britain and Poland veto everything.

Trade agreements with most countries in the world that matter.

[Albion]

Does a Large, single market not bring about uncompetitive artificialness? Kind of what it's like now.

A centralised European Union, where the majority of countries slump.

In a way, yes. It means we don't compete as much with the rest of the world (free trade) but it also means our industries and workers are protected to an extent.

[Xenomorph]

From what I've read, the greatest problem of the EU is micromanagement of individual states. The EU should focus on promoting free trade, not telling countries had tomanage their own economic affairs. Greater military cooperation between EU members would be a good thing.

[Albion]

I think to keep the benefits of a large market (the reason we joined the EU in the first place) but get rid of the corrupt EU that we should join the EFTA as Tuan said.
Britain was a founding member but left when it was clear that the other major economies in Europe were in the EC.
But the EFTA and EU are essentially a single market now anyway since they have an agreement, so we'd get what we joined the EU for and ditch that corrupt organisation.

And all this crap we hear from the scaremongerers about losing political influence in Europe - what political influence? Its a Franco-German led affair.
The EFTA countries are some of the most prosperous, independent countries in the world. Furthermore if Britain joined then the EFTA would become attractive to other countries in Europe, some that haven't been able to join the EU or are against it. I think Turkey would likely follow Britain into the EFTA (Britain and America are attempting to court it) but it wouldn't be a problem as it would in the EU - the EFTA is all about trade. Also it is a large, expanding market to trade with.
With Britain in, the EFTA could then negotiate deals with many Commonwealth countries (1/4 of the world) and influence and help develop the poorer nations of the world whilst benefiting from it ourselves.

I think we should withdraw from the EU then, if it cannot be reformed to a more EFTA-like organisation then the EFTA is the logical answer. To reform it would probably take decades and be a massive task and maybe not possible.

[The Lawspeaker]

From what I've read, the greatest problem of the EU is micromanagement of individual states. The EU should focus on promoting free trade, not telling countries had tomanage their own economic affairs. Greater military cooperation between EU members would be a good thing.

Membership of the EFTA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFTA) combined with a restoration of the Western European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union) (a military alliance) would suffice. As soon as that is sorted out we can leave NATO and let America deal with it's own shit and in the meanwhile let the Eurocrats of Brussels suck a fat one too. Talk about hitting two birds with one stone. :thumb001:

[Albion]

From what I've read, the greatest problem of the EU is micromanagement of individual states. The EU should focus on promoting free trade, not telling countries had tomanage their own economic affairs. Greater military cooperation between EU members would be a good thing.

Free trade in industrialised economies with developing ones is basically a byword for outsourcing.
That is why a single free trade market between industrialised countries only is a good idea. Trade agreements for specific resources and goods can be negotiated with developing countries, but not full and equal access to industrialised markets.

The argument that protectionism holds back the developing world has one major flaw - why should we trade with them anyway?
So we should trade on our terms, not out of some bleeding-heart sympathy for third worlders.

[Contra Mundum]

I want my country out of the EU!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[The Lawspeaker]

I want my country out of the EU!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

You're not even in it.

[Contra Mundum]

The only ones who support the EU are greedy capitalists, and Jews, who aren't loyal to any country in the first place, outside of Israel.

[Albion]

Membership of the EFTA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFTA) combined with a restoration of the Western European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union) (a military alliance) would suffice. As soon as that is sorted out we can leave NATO and let America deal with it's own shit and in the meanwhile let the Eurocrats of Brussels suck a fat one too. Talk about hitting two birds with one stone. :thumb001:

Tell Russia and the US that we're neutral with a nice set of treaties and jointly develop nuclear weapons based on the French programme and the old British one. America will likely ask for Trident back and cancel the nuke sharing deals with Germany.

Let the US and Russia have any future Cold War without Europe being involved this time. ;)

[Contra Mundum]

http://art-1st.com/mediac/400_0/media/Fuck~you~EU~Dog~Shirt~by~Charlie.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

Tell Russia and the US that we're neutral with a nice set of treaties and jointly develop nuclear weapons based on the French programme and the old British one. America will likely ask for Trident back and cancel the nuke sharing deals with Germany.

Let the US and Russia have any future Cold War without Europe being involved this time. ;)
Exactly. And if necessary let the jerries have their nukes too and put the nuclear programs under joint European command.

[Partiasn]

And that's exactly the problem. What do you think would happen to traditional local products (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_origin) (like Edammer cheese, for example) if all patents would be relinquished ? Let me tell you what would happen: the Chinese would take over everything.

I think we have a mismatch of understanding here.

All the Chinese need to do to replicate your cheese is run a chemical analyze on the stuff and Presto, they have the formula. Although that is not what I was talking about.

What I was trying to point out is that, it would be better to ditch international trade on things like well say "Edammer cheese" what ever that is?

So I'm FOR LOCAL Production, but against international trade on things that can be manufactured locally such as food. Also Furniture, Automobiles, and any number of things that can be locally manufactured.

You want to build an Interplanetary Cruiser then great, collaborate on it. But with modern tech there is no reason to import most of this stuff.

[Partiasn]

Tell Russia and the US that we're neutral with a nice set of treaties and jointly develop nuclear weapons based on the French programme and the old British one. America will likely ask for Trident back and cancel the nuke sharing deals with Germany.

Let the US and Russia have any future Cold War without Europe being involved this time. ;)

Honestly I do not see a "New Cold War" between Russia and the US. The motivation is no longer there, and on the American side or the people at least would NOT back the US government in that agenda as we did in the 1950's - 1980's.

Russia on the other hand realized a long time ago that they did not need 40,000 Nukes to take out the United States government. All they really needed was one Nuke on Washington DC, game over. On top of this I suspect that they also know that Biologicals are a dam sight more effective than Nukes, and most likely have a supply of them.

This being said, why would the EU want to wast boat loads of money on WW2 weapons systems such as nukes. Not to mention the tones and tones of toxic waste that comes from them. Both the US and Russia have ridiculous amounts of this stuff that cannot be contained or disposed of?

[Jackson]

Unreformable. What it's developing into was planned from the start.

I regard European law as false and unlawful in this country by our constitution, and so it must be removed as immediately as possible.

[Bloodsport]

I have a borderline fanatic hatred to this bureaucratic illegitimate thing we call the 'EU' and I'd like to see it fold.

[Jackson]

I have a borderline fanatic hatred to this bureaucratic illegitimate thing we call the 'EU' and I'd like to see it fold.

Same, although we are not the fanatics, they are. It's not a matter of liking to see it fold. It must fold, and it will fold, and be erased absolutely. I don't want anything left but dust and bad memories, although we will likely have a whole host of other problems when it goes.

[Bloodsport]

Same, although we are not the fanatics, they are. It's not a matter of liking to see it fold. It must fold, and it will fold, and be erased absolutely. I don't want anything left but dust and bad memories, although we will likely have a whole host of other problems when it goes.

It will be erased indeed, and unfortunately it will leave a lot of problems behind after it goes. But fundamentally it has to go. The EU could have been a great thing if it was constructed with individual liberty and democracy in mind, but it's an overly bureaucratic, corrupted and I'd say imperialistic idea (even Barroso likened the EU to an empire).

[Jackson]

It will be erased indeed, and unfortunately it will leave a lot of problems behind after it goes. But fundamentally it has to go. The EU could have been a great thing if it was constructed with individual liberty and democracy in mind, but it's an overly bureaucratic, corrupted and I'd say imperialistic idea (even Barroso likened the EU to an empire).

I agree with first half, fundamentally disagree with the idea that it could be a great thing. It's not needed. Even at the most base level it's illegal in my country, so it cannot be allowed. And when you actually look at it's similarities to the Soviet System, it's pretty frightening. The only difference between this and a traditional empire is the lack of a military conquest.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I

Large, single market (largest in the world in fact)
Standards set across the continent for many things
Support for farming and industries
Allows countries to speak with one voice thus giving greater influence (should in theory, but not always in practice).
Makes it harder for external countries to manipulate members (although internal countries often still do that).
Trade agreements with most countries in the world that matter.



Except for external manipulation being more difficult these are all cons. But if whole of europe can screw with you then really it's just as bad, or worse. I can't imagine Russia demanding that Spain stop becoming an agricultural producer for example, that's absolutely insane.

This basically gives big business a free run to do whatever the hell they want. They don't have to worry that their new brain destroying antidepressant won't get approved, so long as they can bribe or better yet appoint a couple unelected politicians to make sure it is. Bankers don't have to worry about regulation because they elect their own policemen.

In theory it's bad. In practice it's the most trolololo insanity ever imagined that makes the soviets look like very reasonable people.

Most of your cons are also minor compared to your "pros".

And you forgot the one big one obvious con:
A billion muslims moving around freely into your country if they can jump the fences of just one country in all of europe. If anything borders should be clamping down like crazy.

[Bloodsport]

I agree with first half, fundamentally disagree with the idea that it could be a great thing. It's not needed. Even at the most base level it's illegal in my country, so it cannot be allowed. And when you actually look at it's similarities to the Soviet System, it's pretty frightening. The only difference between this and a traditional empire is the lack of a military conquest.

Well maybe I was being idealistic. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely etc. Give some people the reigns over 500m+ people and they will go power crazy.

Also think it's the best thing for the UK to leave the EU. The UK is independently minded and still has one of the world's best economic systems regardless of what people say. The EU only hinders it.

[Jackson]

Well maybe I was being idealistic. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely etc. Give some people the reigns over 500m+ people and they will go power crazy.

Also think it's the best thing for the UK to leave the EU. The UK is independently minded and still has one of the world's best economic systems regardless of what people say. The EU only hinders it.

That is true. I think power affects at pretty much all levels, it's the damage being done to the previous systems that i find among the most disgusting aspects.

Perhaps somewhat ironically, my opposition to the EU has strengthened my respect for other countries in Europe. Perhaps because they are being done over worse than we are, especially in some cases.

[Bloodsport]

That is true. I think power affects at pretty much all levels, it's the damage being done to the previous systems that i find among the most disgusting aspects.

Perhaps somewhat ironically, my opposition to the EU has strengthened my respect for other countries in Europe. Perhaps because they are being done over worse than we are, especially in some cases.

Granted there is no Gulag or licences you need to apply for to leave your regional unit, but the similarities between the EU and the USSR are striking.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM2Ql3wOGcU

I have no ill feeling towards other European countries, and I'm completely for let's say 'European co-operation'. But it has to be off of each countries own accord, not forced.

[Jackson]

Granted there is no Gulag or licences you need to apply for to leave your regional unit, but the similarities between the EU and the USSR are striking.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM2Ql3wOGcU

I have no ill feeling towards other European countries, and I'm completely for let's say 'European co-operation'. But it has to be off of each countries own accord, not forced.

Exactly. I want nothing more than to cooperate peacefully with other European countries, especially in areas of trade and science. But a political union is not required to do it, and is detrimental in my opinion.