Should Belgium be split up?

[Gratis]

Would it be better if the Walloons and Flemish had their own states, or became part of France and the Netherlands? Or is the current arrangement fine?

[The Lawspeaker]

Let it be the way it is. Maybe they just need some constitutional reforms but that's about it. I think the good way of solving the Brussels problems would be to chuck out the immigrants and then make it attractive for the Flemish to move in so the linguistic situation would become 50/50 again.

[The Lawspeaker]

Besides.. I always hear that the Walloons don't feel like joining France and the Flemish don't like joining the Netherlands and both have their historical reasons. Then let Belgium be Belgium.

[Damião de Góis]

Don't know, but i think Belgian nationalism isn't very strong. Flemish on the other hand...

[Comte Arnau]

It's not just Flanders or Wallonia, as not all of Oil Belgium speaks Walloon, but also Picard or even Champagnese and Lorrain. As well as an eastern area where they speak Central Franconian (Ripuarian and Luxembourgish).

[Osprey]

Its a peaceful little nation, why bother?

[Albion]

Besides.. I always hear that the Walloons don't feel like joining France and the Flemish don't like joining the Netherlands and both have their historical reasons. Then let Belgium be Belgium.

This isn't what you've said in the past.

I think Flanders should join the Netherlands anyway. I'm not sure about Wallonia, I said it should join France in the past but I don't like where it's heading, Wallonia might be better off alone.

[The Lawspeaker]

This isn't what you've said in the past.

I think Flanders should join the Netherlands anyway. I'm not sure about Wallonia, I said it should join France in the past but I don't like where it's heading, Wallonia might be better off alone.
I want to keep Belgium together until it can be reunited for dynastic reasons into a kind of devolved United Kingdom through intermarriage between the Belgian and Dutch Royal Families. In that way the country won't be split up and stays together and both countries can still do their own thing in the way both England and Scotland can do their own things (tax systems, home rule, laws, education system, healthcare system etc.) and whether a unification of the Dutch and Belgian parliaments will be needed ? I am not sure. But it doesn't have to go much further than an Union of the Crowns.

[Albion]

I want to keep Belgium together until it can be reunited for dynastic reasons into a kind of devolved United Kingdom through intermarriage between the Belgian and Dutch Royal Families. In that way the country won't be split up and stays together and both countries can still do their own thing in the way both England and Scotland can do their own things (tax systems, home rule, laws, education system, healthcare system etc.) and whether a unification of the Dutch and Belgian parliaments will be needed ? I am not sure. But it doesn't have to go much further than an Union of the Crowns.

I see. A union of the crowns is too loose though. Britain, Canada, Jamaica and NZ have a union of crowns for example yet they have no real political union.

A political union like the UK would probably be better, but with a federal structure implemented from the start.

[The Lawspeaker]

I see. A union of the crowns is too loose though. Britain, Canada, Jamaica and NZ have a union of crowns for example yet they have no real political union.

A political union like the UK would probably be better, but with a federal structure implemented from the start.

That could work as well but the union should be devolved from the start so f.i "Westminster" Brussels only deals with matters of national importance such as the infrastructure, the wider economy and foreign affairs. The rest should be left to The Hague and the Belgian government in Brussels. There should be a single currency: let's make it the Guilder (Gulden/Florin) or the Franc (frank/franc).

Some organisations that we have now could be united such as the public news stations, the infrastructure boards, the wider way in which the economy is ran (the blueprint for that could the Dutch Polder Model), the ANWB with it's Belgian sister organisation, the railways, the armed forces.

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

Belgium should be split up... Let Flanders reunite with the Netherlands again like it was before the Spanjards split us up.

Atm it is the most logical choice. On many fronts we are already interlinked, specially were it comes to law enforcement and penal system (some of the Dutch prisons are currently used to accommodate Belgian prisoners) and Armed forces.

Most people in Flanders want to be either independant or united with the Netherlands anyway. I very recently purchaced some property in a town called Baarle wich is part in the Netherlands (Baarle-Nassau) and part in Flanders (Baarle-Hertog) and what I gathered from the locals there (after spending an afternoon in a local pub) is that they hate Belgium and absolutely loathe those Wallonians with their french tongues...

And I mean lets face it... Who would want to live in a country were a group of wannabe french is basicly holding you for ransom, cause without the good people of Flanders the annual income of Wallonia would plumet and to top it off they try to force the french language on you...

[The Lawspeaker]

And I mean lets face it... Who would want to live in a country were a group of wannabe french is basicly holding you for ransom, cause without the good people of Flanders the annual income of Wallonia would plumet and to top it off they try to force the french language on you...
The Walloons themselves are being victimised by their own "socialist" party and they have already seen their own dialects replaced by standard French during the late 18th and 19th century under French rule. I think we should definetely give them a chance and not reward France for imperialism and piss-poor behaviour. The Walloons, after all, fought the Eighty Years War alongside us and many protestants fled north after they lost the war.

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

The Walloons themselves are being victimised by their own "socialist" party and they have already seen their own dialects replaced by standard French during the late 18th and 19th century under French rule. I think we should definetely give them a chance and not reward France for imperialism and piss-poor behaviour. The Walloons, after all, fought the Eighty Years War alongside us and many protestants fled north after they lost the war.
Nice non argument there Tuan... Give 'm a chance for what? To be indepent? Sure. To dominant the people of Flanders? Cause thats what their trying to do. I would say NO!!!!

And were are THEY being victimised? Flanders wants independance, and with good reason, and all the Walloons are doing is putting Flanders in a head lock over this. And why? Money. Everyone with a wee bit of knowledge about Belgium knows that its annual Government budget goes for the best part towards Wallonia. So who is the victim here? On top of that you have the linguistic issue. Wallonia trying to force the french language on the people of Flanders.

So what if their dialects got replaced? That gives 'm the right to do the same on other peoples? So what if they were in a war at some point. So many peoples were, and as you so courtesly pointed out we (the Dutch) fought along side them. That means the Flanders people too Tuan cause they were part of the Netherlands remember? I dont get it anyways why you need to bring some irrelevant facts from the past into this.

So because little boy Wallonia got bullied in school makes it right for them to do the same to the people of Flanders?

[The Lawspeaker]

Nice non argument there Tuan... Give 'm a chance for what? To be indepent? Sure. To dominant the people of Flanders? Cause thats what their trying to do. I would say NO!!!!

And were are THEY being victimised? Flanders wants independance, and with good reason, and all the Walloons are doing is putting Flanders in a head lock over this. And why? Money. Everyone with a wee bit of knowledge about Belgium knows that its annual Government budget goes for the best part towards Wallonia. So who is the victim here? On top of that you have the linguistic issue. Wallonia trying to force the french language on the people of Flanders.

So what if their dialects got replaced? That gives 'm the right to do the same on other peoples? So what if they were in a war at some point. So many peoples were, and as you so courtesly pointed out we (the Dutch) fought along side them. That means the Flanders people too Tuan cause they were part of the Netherlands remember? I dont get it anyways why you need to bring some irrelevant facts from the past into this.

So because little boy Wallonia got bullied in school makes it right for them to do the same to the people of Flanders?
The Walloons were also part of the Netherlands, Holle. For much longer then they have been independent. Holy Roman Empire, United Kingdom of the Netherlands, remember ? Besides: we all know who pays Vlaams Blok (yes I know they changed their name but they haven't changed themselves): they are as pro-Zionist as can be so I don't take them seriously. And during WWI and WWII their forebears collaborated with the krauts.

[Albion]

Flanders ~ England
Wallonia ~ Wales / Northern Ireland.


Why no one in the media ever makes this comparison is beyond me, maybe they just don't know much about Belgium? :confused:

[Albion]

Besides: we all know who pays Vlaams Blok (yes I know they changed their name but they haven't changed themselves): they are as pro-Zionist as can be so I don't take them seriously. And during WWI and WWII their forebears collaborated with the krauts.

That's no reason to disregard the views of the Flemish people though.

[The Lawspeaker]

That's no reason to disregard the views of the Flemish people though.

It is. Since they have been let to believe that their former franskiljons (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franskiljons) masters were the same people as the Walloon workers. A bit like how the average Labour, GreenLeft and PVV voter here should be disregarded for their views. Besides: the Flemish hardly ever rose up against their oppressors: the Walloons did on several occassions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_general_strikes) and they were struck down most of the time (in 1893 it led to a bloodbath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_general_strike_of_1893)). There was also another revolt in 1896 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_jacquerie_of_1886). The most recent of such general strikes/revolts was in 1960/1961.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Let's be realistic about the situation of Belgium. It is not going to break up or join another country because of one reason and only one ... Brussels is the capital of the EU. How do you think it would look to the international crowd if the nation that is hosting the capital city of the EU was suddenly destabilized to address nationalist interests? Not good. It is precisely why nothing will ever change about Belgium except status quo will continue to be maintained.

[poiuytrewq0987]

That said, I think Belgian citizens should just come together and forget their Flemish, Walloonian, whatever and start being proud for being Belgian and become something like Switzerland.

[The Lawspeaker]

Let's be realistic about the situation of Belgium. It is not going to break up or join another country because of one reason and only one ... Brussels is the capital of the EU. How do you think it would look to the international crowd if the nation that is hosting the capital city of the EU was suddenly destabilized to address nationalist interests? Not good. It is precisely why nothing will ever change about Belgium except status quo will continue to be maintained.

Kindly shove your pro-EU sentiments up your backside. You don't have to live under that appaling regime. You're in America.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Kindly shove your pro-EU sentiments up your backside. You don't have to live under that appaling regime. You're in America.

It's not me being pro-EU, simply stating the reality.

[The Lawspeaker]

It's not me being pro-EU, simply stating the reality.

Not really. Kindly take your talk of all sorts of unions which you don't have to live under somewhere else.

[Xenomorph]

Kindly shove your pro-EU sentiments up your backside. You don't have to live under that appaling regime. You're in America.

Well he does have a point. Whether one likes the EU or not, as long as Brussels is its capital, and Belgian schism is unlikely for PR reasons at the very least.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well he does have a point. Whether one likes the EU or not, as long as Brussels is its capital, and Belgian schism is unlikely for PR reasons at the very least.

Why not focus on America ? The EU is done for. :D

[Xenomorph]

Why not focus on America ? The EU is done for. :D

The powers-that-be seem to be working their dambdest to save it and don't seem to consider disintegration an option. I don't think it will collapse any time soon, but membership will probably stay frozen for a while. Who knows, really?

[The Lawspeaker]

The powers-that-be seem to be working their dambdest to save it and don't seem to consider disintegration an option. I don't think it will collapse any time soon, but membership will probably stay frozen for a while. Who knows, really?

You really should read the last news. Spain needs help. Cyprus needs help. Greece is hopeless Italy will probably follow and then probably Slovakia and maybe even France. So the EU is done for.

[Xenomorph]

You really should read the last news. Spain needs help. Cyprus needs help. Greece is hopeless Italy will probably follow and then probably Slovakia and maybe even France. So the EU is done for.

Those countries are fucked, but Germany and others have just put too much money and effort into the EU to have it go down the tubes. A massive project like the EU doesn't just go away over night. What might happen is that it might greatly contract in membership to northern European countries, with the southern countries sign separate economic agreements with the EU.

If the EU can be fazed in a way that political and economic stability can be maintained, I'm all for it. But a sudden EU collapse woudl greatly hurt markets everywhere. This will all have to be a gradual process.

[The Lawspeaker]

Those countries are fucked, but Germany and others have just put too much money and effort into the EU to have it go down the tubes. A massive project like the EU doesn't just go away over night. What might happen is that it might greatly contract in membership to northern European countries, with the southern countries sign separate economic agreements with the EU.

If the EU can be fazed in a way that political and economic stability can be maintained, I'm all for it. But a sudden EU collapse woudl greatly hurt markets everywhere. This will all have to be a gradual process.
You don't get it, don't you ? Without a Eurozone the EU is over. The EU doesn't have any real legitimacy outside that and some treaties which are not enjoying any popular support.

[Xenomorph]

You don't get it, don't you ? Without a Eurozone the EU is over. The EU doesn't have any real legitimacy outside that and some treaties which are not enjoying any popular support.

So how does one faze out the euro without causing major waves in the world economy? Decentralized countries handling their own affairs could probably do far better than they are now, but the infrastructure of the EU will need to be phased out reponsibly or countries could go into scared turtle mode, shriveling the European economy at least temporarily.

[The Lawspeaker]

So how does one faze out the euro without causing major waves in the world economy? Decentralized countries handling their own affairs could probably do far better than they are now, but the infrastructure of the EU will need to be phased out reponsibly or countries could go into scared turtle mode, shriveling the European economy at least temporarily.
Who cares if countries just leave it or phase it out ? It's not your problem, American. That's the problem for the politicians and economists here - and of course (in case we finally get the vote but don't count on it) the people.

[Xenomorph]

Who cares if countries just leave it or phase it out ? It's not your problem, American. That's the problem for the politicians and economists here - and of course (in case we finally get the vote but don't count on it) the people.

I care because an unplanned collapse would wreck markets everywhere. Ultimately, yes, it's in the hands of the Europeans, but the last thing the world needs is disorder similar to what happened when the USSR collapsed. The EU in a number of ways is a world power and its collapse would have major ramifications everywhere.

[The Lawspeaker]

I care because an unplanned collapse would wreck markets everywhere. Ultimately, yes, it's in the hands of the Europeans, but the last thing the world needs is disorder similar to what happened when the USSR collapsed. The EU in a number of ways is a world power and its collapse would have major ramifications everywhere.


That would be up to us here. If it has an effect on Americans it is not important at all. What is important is the effects it will have on us here.

[Xenomorph]

That would be up to us here. If it has an effect on Americans it is not important at all. What is important is the effects it will have on us here.

Yes, it is important. A damaged American market would further damage the European one; the EU is a massive entity that is crucial to the world market. Its rapid collapse would be bad for everyone. I completely agree that it will be up to the Europeans to decide what happens to it, but they shouldn't act like they live in a bubble.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, it is important.
No it isn't. Focus on your own problems for once. Your country doesn't have to poke it's stupid, unwanted nose in other people's affairs all the time.

[Xenomorph]

No it isn't. Focus on your own problems for once. Your country doesn't have to poke it's stupid, unwanted nose in other people's affairs all the time.

Did I ever said that the US should intervene in the EU or force some resolution to the current problems? No, I simply said that Europeans should realize that their actions have considerable ramifications beyond their borders and that this should be taken into consideration. I don't see why you're being so hostile.

[The Lawspeaker]

Did I ever said that the US should intervene in
You seem to consider a fall of the EU and the Euro to be important because of the "consequences it might have for America". The consequences are not important. I personally think that we in Europe shouldn't give a shit how many American investors go bankrupt. The only thing that matters is that a collapse of the EU and the Euro should give the Europeans some breathing space.

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

The Walloons were also part of the Netherlands, Holle. For much longer then they have been independent. Holy Roman Empire, United Kingdom of the Netherlands, remember ? Besides: we all know who pays Vlaams Blok (yes I know they changed their name but they haven't changed themselves): they are as pro-Zionist as can be so I don't take them seriously. And during WWI and WWII their forebears collaborated with the krauts.OMFG Here we go again... Please stop with those infernal insignificant facts that contribute nothing to the discussion at hand. Involving your hatred against everything German and everything rightwinged is really getting tiresome.

Back on topic... True Wallonia was ones a part of the Netherlands yet this was after the 80 year old war. Before that they were part Of the Roman Empire of German Nations. The Germans didn't wan't them either and neither did the Netherlands.

Are you aware of what Wallonian means Tuan. Roughly translated it means Stranger. From the Germanic word "Weleas" used to indicate that someone doesn't speak Germanic. It also means "Roman" in Old French. And these people were ones Dutch? Not by choice I assure you.

Now before you go all hissyfitting again about Zionists, collaboraters and more hoody blabla you might wanna stick to the actual facts at hand. You know the fact presented to us from 2012.

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

Who cares if countries just leave it or phase it out ? It's not your problem, American.
Last time I checked this was an open discussion board Tuan.

Whats with the "ad hominem" temper?

I've seen you reply to matters on this board wich basicly do not concern you so why shouldn't others do the very same?

Iemand op zo'n grove manier de mond proberen te snoeren siert je niet kameraad.

[Onur]

Let's be realistic about the situation of Belgium. It is not going to break up or join another country because of one reason and only one ... Brussels is the capital of the EU.
The one and only reason which keeps Belgium united is the EU and when EU falls, Belgium will fall too. French politicians already said that if Belgium falls, they are ready to embrace Walloon territories. Then Netherlands gets the Flemish one and the case closes.

Belgium is just a fake country created by French elite. There is no such a nation as Belgians and there was never b4 either. There are just French and Flemish people in there. French elite desired to create a second Switzerland, a new country, united on top power which comes from external support. Thats how they created Belgium and branded it as the so-called capital of European Union. So, it continues to survive due to EU but they couldn't even form a government for more than a year, breaking the world record of post-war Iraq in this.

British MEP Nigel Farage summarizes what is Belgium and what`s not.
XjIHwTWwaMg

Belgian President doesn't even know Belgian anthem and he thinks French anthem is also theirs, whatta disastrous failure this is!!!

[dralos]

here in belgium we stopped talking about splitting belgium up a long time ago bcs its just a fairytale,the only thing that is going to be split is brussel halle vilvoorde

[The Lawspeaker]

Back on topic... True Wallonia was ones a part of the Netherlands yet this was after the 80 year old war. Before that they were part Of the Roman Empire of German Nations. The Germans didn't wan't them either and neither did the Netherlands.
And so were we. There was a reason why so Walloons fled north when the Spanish beat down the insurrection down South. Ever heard of a Waalse Kerk ? My ancestors attended those.



Are you aware of what Wallonian means Tuan. Roughly translated it means Stranger. From the Germanic word "Weleas" used to indicate that someone doesn't speak Germanic. It also means "Roman" in Old French. And these people were ones Dutch? Not by choice I assure you..
They have been with us for far longer then they have been independent and that is the only thing that counts. Besides: do you really want the French border at Maastricht ? We know that French expansionism is like.

Besides: I rather support Walloons than then Flemish "nationalists" with their history of collaboration. First with the invading Germans in 1914-1918 and 1940-1944 when the Germans massacred Fleming and Walloon alike (look up the Rape of Belgium or the invasion of Belgium in 1940 and the countless massacres in 1944) and now with the Israeli's. I only support nationalist that are actually nationalist.

I don't base my political stance on cheap right-wing propaganda. I focus my political stance on the experiences taught us by human history and if everyone would do the same thing things would actually work.

[Albion]

And so were we. There was a reason why so Walloons fled north when the Spanish beat down the insurrection down South. Ever heard of a Waalse Kerk ? My ancestors attended those.

So you have a pro-Walloon position because your ancestors were Walloons or just attended their churches?


They have been with us for far longer then they have been independent and that is the only thing that counts. Besides: do you really want the French border at Maastricht ? We know that French expansionism is like.

You could say the same about Wales but if they want to leave England then it's up to them.

[The Lawspeaker]

So you have a pro-Walloon position because your ancestors were Walloons or just attended their churches?
Partially. But also because the Flemish "nationalists" have always collaborated: first with the Germans and then with the Israeli's (like today). They cannot be trusted in any way, shape or form. And neither can the Dutch "nationalists" of the same thing which collaborate with America and Israel. The Walloons, in that respect, have shown their meddle.




You could say the same about Wales but if they want to leave England then it's up to them.
After you plundered their resources they are good enough to go ? Besides I don't want the French border anywhere near Maastricht because then 50 years later the population would be frenchified and the border would be at Rotterdam. You know what the French are like.

[Albion]

After you plundered their resources they are good enough to go ?

What resources Tuan? Coal and slate? The middle class Welsh sold that themselves and used the working class Welsh as cheap labour. I don't think Welsh exploiting Welsh is really any of our concern.
All the resources in Wales are found in England in much greater quantity. We have much more slate and coal than they ever did and have exploited our own sources of it. As for the Gold, well the Romans mined it all out before we got here.

Just because a region has resources it doesn't necessarily mean it is exploited by the other regions btw. If anything the Welsh would still be backwards peasants without all the benefits brought to them by England. It was our people that brought roads, railways and ports to enable that enabled their backwards country to trade with the world.

And are you going to apply this piss-poor argument to Flanders now? Wallonia has coal, Flanders must then surely have exploited it, right?

The plundering of resources is what you proposed the Dutch do in Suriname in the past, now you're using it as a weapon.


Besides I don't want the French border anywhere near Maastricht because then 50 years later the population would be frenchified and the border would be at Rotterdam. You know what the French are like.

That's a better argument, but the language border in Flanders hasn't shifted much in recent decades (apart from around Brussels). I think the Flemish are too patriotic to start speaking French, in the past it was an elite takeover by Francophiles.

[The Lawspeaker]

What resources Tuan? Coal and slate?
It built Brittania, mate. :thumb001:




That's a better argument, but the language border in Flanders hasn't shifted much in recent decades (apart from around Brussels). I think the Flemish are too patriotic to start speaking French, in the past it was an elite takeover by Francophiles.
Actually it has shifted a lot during history. Most of what is now Wallonia used to the Flemish-speaking as well. The proto-Dutch language border in France ran just south of Calais during the 8th century and until way in the 20th century the majority of the French Netherlands were Flemish-speaking.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/FlemishinDunkirkdistrict.PNG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Kaartfransvlaanderen.jpg

[Albion]

Actually it has shifted a lot during history. Most of what is now Wallonia used to the Flemish-speaking as well. The proto-Dutch language border in France ran just south of Calais during the 8th century and until way in the 20th century the majority of the French Netherlands were Flemish-speaking.


Are there any Dutch or Walloon websites you can refer me to for further information? I don't think I'll find much in English.

[The Lawspeaker]

Are there any Dutch or Walloon websites you can refer me to for further information? I don't think I'll find much in English.

I am not sure but what you could try is De Roepstem- which can be found in the Dutch section. It looks at things from the Whole Netherlands- perspective.

[The Lawspeaker]

Are there any Dutch or Walloon websites you can refer me to for further information? I don't think I'll find much in English.

I am not sure but what you could try is De Roepstem (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33022&highlight=roepstem)- which can be found in the Belgian section. It looks at things from the Whole Netherlands- perspective. First of all: the Walloon participation (http://www.roepstem.net/geuzen.html) in the Dutch Revolt against Spain.

[The Lawspeaker]

About the French Netherlands (http://www.roepstem.net/vlaanderen.html).

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

And so were we. There was a reason why so Walloons fled north when the Spanish beat down the insurrection down South. Ever heard of a Waalse Kerk ? My ancestors attended those. Again absolutely irrelevant.



They have been with us for far longer then they have been independent and that is the only thing that counts. Besides: do you really want the French border at Maastricht ? We know that French expansionism is like. Been with us? Don't flatter yourself Tuan, its not like they had a choice did they? And neither had the Netherlands.


Besides: I rather support Walloons than then Flemish "nationalists" with their history of collaboration. First with the invading Germans in 1914-1918 and 1940-1944 when the Germans massacred Fleming and Walloon alike (look up the Rape of Belgium or the invasion of Belgium in 1940 and the countless massacres in 1944) and now with the Israeli's. I only support nationalist that are actually nationalist. Again you choose a line of argumentation of non relevance. But alright fair enough... So Wallonia is innocent of ever collaborating with an invader? Remember "Rex"? Leon Degrelle and his Wallonian Legion? All volunteers for the Waffen SS?


I don't base my political stance on cheap right-wing propaganda. I focus my political stance on the experiences taught us by human history and if everyone would do the same thing things would actually work.No you base your stance on your hatred against everything right winged and German.

"The anti-fascists of today shall be the fascists of tomorrow."

[The Lawspeaker]

Again absolutely irrelevant.
Not irrelevant because they stood at the birth of this country.



Been with us? Don't flatter yourself Tuan, its not like they had a choice did they? And neither had the Netherlands.Of course they had. Rise up. And they rose up together with us and were crushed.


Again you choose a line of argumentation of non relevance. But alright fair enough... So Wallonia is innocent of ever collaborating with an invader? Remember "Rex"? Leon Degrelle and his Wallonian Legion? All volunteers for the Waffen SS?
A couple of Walloons: once. The Flemish: every friggin invader. They could have learned it from the French themselves to be honest.


No you base your stance on your hatred against everything right winged and German.
And thus on history. The right-wing let the immigrants and the Germans killed 200K of my and your countrymen in one war alone in case you have forgotten all about that. And more if you take in the Belgian victims as well.


"The anti-fascists of today shall be the fascists of tomorrow."
A cheap quote that is barely applicable. Most anti-free speech laws came into effect under right-wing governments. Yes.. PC came into effect during the 1980s here where the right-wing government cleverly used the far-left to do the dirty work for them when it came to the CD.

[Breedingvariety]

There is no such nationality as Belgian. Belgium is artificial country.

I think countries should be nation states.

[The Lawspeaker]

There is no such nationality as Belgian. Belgium is artificial country.

I think countries should be nation states.
And that's why you live in America ? :D

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

Not irrelevant because they stood at the birth of this country. And how is that relevant in 2012?


Of course they had. Rise up. And they rose up together with us and were crushed. Very funny... Collaboration with whom? The Spanjards? It was Philips II who forced the Netherlands and Wallonia into an union.



A couple of Walloons: once. The Flemish: every friggin invader. They could have learned it from the French themselves to be honest. And that makes it right? That makes your refined argumentation complete? You will stoop to any level to win a discussion wont you?



And thus on history. The right-wing let the immigrants and the Germans killed 200K of my and your countrymen in one war alone in case you have forgotten all about that. And more if you take in the Belgian victims as well. Your and my countrymen slayed about 500k people in the colonies or sold them as slaves. You forgot about that? You constantly try to play the Dutch victim card and blame those awefull Germans, but we Dutch werent saints either so stop with the BS.



A cheap quote that is barely applicable. Most anti-free speech laws came into effect under right-wing governments. Yes.. PC came into effect during the 1980s here where the right-wing government cleverly used the far-left to do the dirty work for them when it came to the CD.Appearntly it is very very applicable. And cheap? perhaps. Yet so is your way of dominating disussions with argumentation purely based on historical events. Dominating... Fascist.... Ring a bell?

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

There is no such nationality as Belgian. Belgium is artificial country.

I think countries should be nation states.Absolutely spot on... Belgium is known as the monarchy with no subjects aswell as the nation without people...

[The Lawspeaker]

And how is that relevant in 2012?
Very relevant. Trust the ones you can trust.


Very funny... Collaboration with whom? The Spanjards? It was Philips II who forced the Netherlands and Wallonia into an union.
Wrong. That union had existed 800 years prior to the Philips II. Starting off with Charlemagne.



Your and my countrymen slayed about 500k people in the colonies or sold them as slaves. You forgot about that? You constantly try to play the Dutch victim card and blame those awefull Germans, but we Dutch werent saints either so stop with the BS.
Aha. So white guilt is perfectly applicable but the poor Germans never did anything wrong.



Appearntly it is very very applicable. And cheap? perhaps. Yet so is your way of dominating disussions with argumentation purely based on historical events. Dominating... Fascist.... Ring a bell?
Hey it was the right that brought them in and the CDA, VVD and PVV haven't removed them yet. Why ? Because it won't suit their purposes: low wages.

[Xenomorph]

A somewhat off-topic question; but besides the newly Frenchized population of Brussels, are most Walloons descended from Germanic speakers or Romanized Celts?

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

A somewhat off-topic question; but besides the newly Frenchized population of Brussels, are most Walloons descended from Germanic speakers or Romanized Celts?




Are you aware of what Wallonian means Tuan. Roughly translated it means Stranger. From the Germanic word "Weleas" used to indicate that someone doesn't speak Germanic. It also means "Roman" in Old French.

[The Lawspeaker]

A somewhat off-topic question; but besides the newly Frenchized population of Brussels, are most Walloons descended from Germanic speakers or Romanized Celts?

Probably a mixture as that part of the Lowlands were the borderlands and even more so when the French marched north. There is a lot of Celtic blood in the Southern part of the Netherlands and in Flanders as well. There are Germanic words and even entire phrases and Germanic grammar in Belgian French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_French) AND Walloon dialects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_language) and there are French words in Flemish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Dutch) and even Brabantic Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabantian).

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

Very relevant. Trust the ones you can trust. So because they "founded" a nation and were part of the Wallonian church means they should be trusted? Bs argumentation if I ever witnessed some...



Wrong. That union had existed 800 years prior to the Philips II. Starting off with Charlemagne. No it did not cause untill the 1500s Wallonia was part of Germany.




Aha. So white guilt is perfectly applicable but the poor Germans never did anything wrong. Nowhere did I state that did I? Stick too facts in replys given please.



Hey it was the right that brought them in and the CDA, VVD and PVV haven't removed them yet. Why ? Because it won't suit their purposes: low wages.Bla bla bla left right right left. A nice term given to us by fucking jews, so what of it? You keep blasting this board with every little minute detail about the wrongs of "right". You twisting my words is futile.

Like your little friends out there in the left field are so perfect. Condoning pheadophilia, race-mixing, multiculturalism as a whole, culture suicide and so forth...

So your opinion is that right winged politicians never ever did anything right? You gullible sod... Please hand in your welfare check cause a righty was responsible for you getting just that. Better yet it was that righty that led the Germans to invade your homeland. That righty was also responable for your oppertunity to go back to school.

[The Lawspeaker]

So because they "founded" a nation and were part of the Wallonian church means they should be trusted? Bs argumentation if I ever witnessed some...
Yes.. And a very good one too: countries that have invaded us or threatened us or trying to take over parts of our country (hello France, hello Germany) or that have managed to mess up this country by injecting completely alien ideas here (hello United States) should not be trusted. Besides: did you know that the religious fire that led to the Eighty Years' War started in Wallonia ? Yes.. the Iconoclasm did start in Wallonia. Maybe you should also look up where the Belgic Confession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_de_Bres) (still in use in Dutch and Belgian churches) comes from ? Hell .. maybe you could look up what the very word Belgium means and how we called ourselves during the days of the Dutch Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_republic) (tip: use the Latin name).



No it did not cause untill the 1500s Wallonia was part of Germany.

There was no such thing as Germany. Germany didn't exist until 1870. What did the exist was the Holy Roman Empire and the Low Countries as a whole were part of the Burgundian Circle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_Circle).




Bla bla bla left right right left. A nice term given to us by fucking jews, so what of it?
Wrong. A term dating back to the French Revolution.


Like your little friends out there in the left field are so perfect. Condoning pheadophilia, race-mixing, multiculteralism as a whole, culture suicide and so forth...
I am more thinking about the left-wing of the 1950s. Those problems that you mentioned only came up during the 1980s. Gee.. I wonder why.


So your opinion is that right winged politicians never ever did anything right? You gullible sod... Please hand in your welfare check cause a righty was responsible for you getting just that. Better yet it was a righty that led the Germans to invade your homeland. That righty was also responable for your oppertunity to go back to school.
The very idea would now be considered left-wing. So what has the right been doing over the past 60 years apart from privatising and breaking down that was build under Drees ? Nothing.

[Onur]

And that's why you live in America ? :D
Thats true. USA is also an artificial country just as Switzerland, but their pillars which holds them intact are stronger than Belgium`s.

Both Switzerland and USA are based on capitalism. The whole world`s money is getting controlled by New York and Zurich. These are THE capitals or "Das Kapital" said by Karl Marx. Switzerland and USA falls only when the world capitalism falls.

On the other hand Belgium is solely based on EU and it falls when EU falls.

[The Lawspeaker]

Thats true. USA is also an artificial country but just as Switzerland, their pillars which holds them intact are stronger than Belgium`s.
America is indeed artificial. One big bloody Flevoland.


Both Switzerland and USA are based on capitalism. The whole world`s money is getting controlled by New York and Zurich. These are THE capitals or "Das Kapital" said by Karl Marx. Switzerland and USA falls only when the world capitalism falls.
Look up Swiss history, Onur. They have been around for a bit longer than you seem to think. :coffee:


On the other hand Belgium is solely based on EU and it falls when EU falls.
Belgium was created in 1830. 120 years before someone even began to think about a EU.

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

Yes.. And a very good one too: countries that have invaded us or threatened us or trying to take over parts of our country (hello France, hello Germany) or that have managed to mess up this country by injecting completely alien ideas here (hello United States) should not be trusted. So Spain forcing Wallonia upon the Dutch had nothing to do with us being invaded? Hmmm yeah I see the the big picture now. of you trying to worm your way out that is.




There was no such thing as Germany. Germany didn't exist until 1870. What did the exist was the Holy Roman Empire and the Low Countries as a whole were part of the Burgundian Circle. I'm so sorry Tuan. I'll choose my words more carefully next time. By Germany I ofcourse (as already mentioned in one of my previous posts but reading doesnt seem to be a virtue here) meant Holy Roman Empire of German Nations.




Wrong. A term dating back to the French Revolution. Uhu couple hundreds of years ago. And reintroduced during the 1900s... Is this btw the best reply you came up with? No German WWII philosophy anywhere?



I am more thinking about the left-wing of the 1950s. Those problems that you mentioned only came up during the 1980s. Gee.. I wonder why. Yeah ofcourse mate... Lets devide left winged politics up in eras shall we? You know how fucking stupid that makes you look?



The very idea would now be considered left-wing. So what has the right been doing over the past 60 years apart from privatising and breaking down that was build under Drees ? Nothing.Wow really? So you are actually claiming that NS never was right winged? But fair enough (again)... Back then it was right winged politics that got you that wellfare check. (wich is bad bad bad) Nowadays (cause it is considered left-winged) its allright for you to pick up that same wellfare check cause?

But leave no mistake right wing is still very very bad. (even tho wellfare was their idea but lefties nicked it)

[The Lawspeaker]

So Spain forcing Wallonia upon the Dutch had nothing to do with us being invaded? Hmmm yeah I see the the big picture now. of you trying to worm your way out that is.
Spain didn't force them on us. Charlemagne did.




I'm so sorry Tuan. I'll choose my words more carefully next time. By Germany I ofcourse (as already mentioned in one of my previous posts but reading doesnt seem to be a virtue here) meant Holy Roman Empire of German Nations.
And they had been in it forever. Actually: we were already part of the very same circle.



Uhu couple hundreds of years ago. And reintroduced during the 1900s... Is this btw the best reply you came up with? No German WWII philosophy anywhere?
You can look that up for yourself. Basic maatschappijleer.



Wow really? So you are actually claiming that NS never was right winged? But fair enough (again)... Back then it was right winged politics that got you that wellfare check. (wich is bad bad bad) Nowadays (cause it is considered left-winged) its allright for you to pick up that same wellfare check cause?

But leave no mistake right wing is still very very bad. (even tho wellfare was their idea but lefties nicked it)
NS was left-wing, yes. The birth of the welfare state dates from after WWII. You know.. Drees. Which was Rooms-Rood. PvdA-KVP.

[Onur]

Look up Swiss history, Onur. They have been around for a bit longer than you seem to think. :coffee:

Belgium was created in 1830. 120 years before someone even began to think about a EU.
This might be the case but Switzerland is the center of world capitalism together with NY. Swiss economy is solely based on banking system and they are acting like a safe depot for the world`s money. This is same for New York. As you know, some mega companies and banks in NY are richer than the some countries in the world, e.g Wallmart is richer than Greece, Apple is richer than whole African countries.

And Belgium is the center of EU and it totally depends on EU for everything.

[The Lawspeaker]

This might be the case but Switzerland is the center of world capitalism together with NY. Swiss economy is solely based on banking system and they are acting like a safe depot for the world`s money. This is same for New York. As you know, some mega companies and banks in NY are richer than the some countries in the world, e.g Wallmart is richer than Greece, Apple is richer than whole African countries.

And Belgium is the center of EU and it totally depends on EU for everything.
You really should look up the rest of European history, mate. :) We house just about every international legal organisation that is in existence today. It doesn't make my country a courtroom, does it ?

[Onur]

We house just about every international legal organisation that is in existence today. It doesn't make my country a courtroom, does it ?
You cant compare these countries with Holland. Holland is a true nation but they are not. I mean what happens if those legal organizations goes away? i am sure you can deal with it because you are not depend on these. OR think about worse, what happens if capitalism falls? I am sure you survive and hold on together by consuming and selling your cheese, milk and other lovely products and eventually you restart everything from scratch. You can have your Holland only for the Dutch people because all immigrants goes away in that case :)

But think about USA or Swiss. What happens when capitalism falls and all the banks goes bust? Americans and Swiss don't have that strong bond you have in Holland. They fall instantly and people abandons, goes away. It`s same for the Belgium.

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

Spain didn't force them on us. Charlemagne did. Dude Charles the great was 800 ad. The spanjards forced us into union right before the 80 year war wich was from 1568 till 1648. Wallonia was part of the Holy Roman Empire Of Germans Nations till 1500. So where did Charles make them? Your full of it.




And they had been in it forever. Actually: we were already part of the very same circle. Had been in what forever? And how was the Netherlands part of the German nations? Really man your talking in absolute riddles.



You can look that up for yourself. Basic maatschappijleer. Why dont you enlighten me? You seem to be doing a very good job in letting links to historical facts do all the talking and thinking for ya, so why not now?




NS was left-wing, yes. The birth of the welfare state dates from after WWII. You know.. Drees. Which was Rooms-Rood. PvdA-KVP.Man you really try to twist your words into a valid argument but alas thou dont succeed. If I spend one half hour on this board I can dig up so many threads were you label NS right winged it would make your head spin and not stop for 6 million years.

You are constantly forming some sort of an "opinion" to suite your needs. Even if it contradicts previously opted opninions. Very sad indeed.

[Ouistreham]

Most people in Flanders want to be either independant or united with the Netherlands anyway.

This is a lie. The Flemish are arch-dominant in Belgium and use Brussels and Wallonia as colonies: even Bart De Wever's NVA has no intent to withdraw from there!



without the good people of Flanders the annual income of Wallonia would plumet...

Another lie.


and to top it off they try to force the french language on you

This is just the opposite, douchebag!

[Breedingvariety]

You Ouistreham and Holle Bolle Gijss are on the same side of the issue. Don't let interpretations divide you. All your disagreements come from the fluke of history that is Belgium. Fight alongside to share the country between France and the Netherlands. Fight alongside to end EU.

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

douchebag!Very nice to meet you too...:rolleyes:

[Albion]

This might be the case but Switzerland is the center of world capitalism together with NY. Swiss economy is solely based on banking system and they are acting like a safe depot for the world`s money. This is same for New York. As you know, some mega companies and banks in NY are richer than the some countries in the world, e.g Wallmart is richer than Greece, Apple is richer than whole African countries.

And Belgium is the center of EU and it totally depends on EU for everything.

Switzerland was one of the poorest nations in Western Europe until a few decades ago, now it is amongst the richest by GDP per capita.
I suppose finance grew in Europe once the loans from America were phased out. The City of London is probably more important than Switzerland in all this, 75% of European finance passes through there. To an extent it is an outpost of New York though whilst Switzerland acts as the place to stash the cash.
In the UK the tax avoiders go to Jersey, Bermuda or the Cayman Islands. The rich have quite an elaborate system going.

[Breedingvariety]

To an extent it is an outpost of New York though whilst Switzerland acts as the place to stash the cash.
In the UK the tax avoiders go to Jersey, Bermuda or the Cayman Islands. The rich have quite an elaborate system going.
If you want to guillotine the super rich, you need to ambush them. It is hard with all modern surveillance technologies. But it is necessary to set an example.

We need extremely bloody revolution in all European nations.

If you don't do it, they will run away with the loot, like they ran away from Northern Italy. Or worse, they will stay, and continue to loot you.

[Ouistreham]

Swiss economy is solely based on banking system

— Bullshit! Through the 20th century Switzerland developed a superior expertise in mechanical and electrical engineering, and is still leading in these fields.

You may not have noticed it, but basically almost everything in everyday life depends on Swiss patents. Just a trivial example: most plastic packaging of daily use were developed by Swiss companies, and the best ones are still produced with Swiss-made machinery and toolings.

Same for fine chemicals, pharmaceuticals etc. Do I need to list the super-efficient Swiss multinational firms that dominate the world markets? Even as for foodstuffs (Nestlé).

The banking system developed in the post WW-1 years but just as an icing over the cake.

The secret with Switzerland is that, as soon as the WW1 years, they realized that their traditional policy of not being involved in big military and political alliance systems had to be extended on the economical and technological fields. Being self-sufficient in all possible fields is a scope everybody in Switzerland agrees with.

This is a lesson all EU countries should have listened to.

[Holle Bolle Gijss]

Same for fine chemicals, pharmaceuticals etc. Do I need to list the super-efficient Swiss multinational firms that dominate the world markets? Even as for foodstuffs (Nestlé).

Nestlé isn't Swis...

Only headoffice is located there...

[Onur]

You may not have noticed it, but basically almost everything in everyday life depends on Swiss patents. Just a trivial example: most plastic packaging of daily use were developed by Swiss companies, and the best ones are still produced with Swiss-made machinery and toolings
Ohhh c`mooon, just one oil-rich Arab`s deposit to one of the Swiss banks is probably bigger than your plastic packing companies total budget. The Swiss state the money barons in there are just using the Arab`s billions of dollars money in return of it`s total safety and anonymity.


The City of London is probably more important than Switzerland in all this, 75% of European finance passes through there.
Yes, you are right but Swiss is not a nation unlike England and their survival depends on these external factors. I mean, England just goes bust without these but Switzerland disintegrates.

[Albion]

Ohhh c`mooon, just one oil-rich Arab`s deposit to one of the Swiss banks is probably bigger than your plastic packing companies total budget. The Swiss state the money barons in there are just using the Arab`s billions of dollars money in return of it`s total safety and anonymity.


Yes, you are right but Swiss is not a nation unlike England and their survival depends on these external factors. I mean, England just goes bust without these but Switzerland disintegrates.

I doubt that either Switzerland or the UK would collapse. The UK is acting like guarantor to the banks in the City of London but in reality I don't think it'd happen.
Financial services account for something like 10% of GDP - it'd be more like a massive kick in the teeth if the banks went bust and took our money down with them.

I doubt Switzerland would prop up the financial services sector there. Their per capita GDP would probably go down significantly though.

The only places which would likely collapse without the finance sector would be Jersey and Lichtenstein.
France and Germany have smaller finance sectors.

[Dandelion]

I voted:


Yes, Wallonia should become part of France and Flanders part of the Netherlands.

[Dandelion]

The Walloons, after all, fought the Eighty Years War alongside us and many protestants fled north after they lost the war.

Actually, the overwhelming majority chose the side of the Spaniards. A minority moved to the North indeed. In the parts controlled by the Hapsburg dynasty out of necessity to escape persecution, in the Prince-Bishopric of Liège out of precaution.
Most Walloons, however, were avid supporters of the regime unlike in the Dutch provinces where Protestantism had a larger spread and where even Catholics had their reasons to oppose the Spanish regime (it was a Dutch revolt before it was a Protestant revolt). It were all Walloon provinces who became part of the Union of Arras (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unie_van_Atrecht#Relatie_met_Walloni.C3.AB) eventually.

Even today Walloons see little in a dynastic reunification of the Netherlands with themselves included. The holiday of the French Community in Belgium is even the day when the Dutch forced were forced to retreat out of Brussels at September 27 1830. It was after all due to efforts of volunteers of Liège that it was made possible, led by the Frenchman Charles Rogier.

[Loki]

Besides.. I always hear that the Walloons don't feel like joining France and the Flemish don't like joining the Netherlands and both have their historical reasons. Then let Belgium be Belgium.

I wasn't aware of this ...

I thought it good that the Flemish join their Lower-Franconian-speaking brethren to the north, and perhaps ... Brussels could become an EU city-state much like Rome is the Vatican city-state? :D

[Dandelion]

Flemish don't want it today, but society surely takes interesting turns. I remember Flemish proles feeling antipathy toward Dutch 15-20 years ago, nowadays people see the Dutch more in a positive light safe a few exceptions.

One can hardly blame people, as a negative perception of the Dutch kind of aids the Belgian state. An imaginary 'enemy' comes in handy for a failed state.

Also the fact people have their opinion of the Dutch is also because of the shared culture/language. Often times state borders create artificial rivalry which is often blown out of proportion to such an extent the masses believe it's justified and real. It often denotes similarity or at least compatibility, or at least a shared spirit (=/= mentality per se).

[Geminus]

I support a split up in case the German community in Belgium is added to Germany back again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-speaking_Community_of_Belgium

But as far as I know they've got some autonomy and are able to preserve their German culture. Because of this it's not some kind of urgency.

[Heart of Oak]

Belgium should be split from ear to ear....
with a jack hammer, espesialy wear Dralos lives...

[MST3K]

I wasn't aware of this ...

I thought it good that the Flemish join their Lower-Franconian-speaking brethren to the north, and perhaps ... Brussels could become an EU city-state much like Rome is the Vatican city-state? :D

I agree with the Brussels city-state. :thumb001:

[Albion]

I agree with the Brussels city-state. :thumb001:

A part of me likes the idea but another doesn't. Cutting off an infected limb to save the body is what is being proposed here and it's kind of sad to see Brussels taken from Flanders.

On another thread regarding English devolution I suggested London being a separate "capital territory" for the UK, not administered as part of England. It'd be kind of like ACT (Canberra) or Brussels I suppose.
Whilst it would be good for England (the country wouldn't be run from and for London) it would also be a great loss. London is after all England's capital and much of the south and London are intertwined. However it is quite apart from the rest of England and full of immigrants and their offspring. So that makes me more for it.
But if we allow capital cities to leave their countries then how long before the world breaks up into city states? There's a lot to consider here.
I've seen Londoners half-jokingly proposing a city state within or outside of the UK. They are a bit up their own arse really.

I think that if the Scots remain a part of the UK then devolution should be revised into a federation whereby each constituent country has equal powers. That Scotland can function as a nearly sovereign nation whilst Wales functions as a province and England as remnant UK is ridiculous - why such a variation in powers?

There's no need to divide England into little regions though. It could be run from it's old capital in Winchester or from some other location more geographically central.

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2012/devolutionv.png

The only problem I can see with it is that the UK would be dominated by the interests of England and London and they'd either ally against the interests of the other countries or compete.

[Tony]

I'd very like to see once again Gallia Belgica.
An only country from Strasbourg to Amsterdam, from Paris and Le Havre to Koln, same phenotypes and timber houses, same climate and landscape, and plants too, it would be cool.

http://ancientrome.ru/map/prov/gallia03.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

I agree with the Brussels city-state. :thumb001:

I disagree. Brussels should be the capital of a United Netherlands. It was our capital when we were still part of the Holy Roman Empire and when we were the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.

[Albion]

I disagree. Brussels should be the capital of a United Netherlands. It was our capital when we were still part of the Holy Roman Empire and when we were the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.

It's a bit far south though, kind of like England and the UK being run from London. If I lived in Gelderland and found my country run from Brussels I'd be pissed.
Amsterdam is much more central and a nice city. The two capitals thing just doesn't make sense though, it's not like the government couldn't administer the country from Amsterdam instead of the Hague (how did that come about anyway?).

In England I'd like to see us run from a more central location but sadly a lot of our cities are either too small or too crap to be designated as capitals. I mean who'd want to be run from Birmingham? :rolleyes2:
Winchester is one of our old capitals and has nice architecture and a good feel to it but sadly it's quite far south. Chester is another potential capital but it's too close to Wales and the sea.

[The Lawspeaker]

Amsterdam is much more central and a nice city. The two capitals thing just doesn't make sense though, it's not like the government couldn't administer the country from Amsterdam instead of the Hague (how did that come about anyway?).

A long long story but let's put it this way: Amsterdam was always the New York City of the Netherlands and The Hague it's Washington D.C after Brussels remained in the Southern-controlled part. Amsterdam has always been jealous of that so they did secure the official position of capital in 1815 and constitutionally in 1983. I don't think they should have it and that the capital should be The Hague and in the case of a reunification it should be Brussels. (particularly when the Walloons would join us in the formation of a Whole Netherlands and they should be more than welcome to join our ranks whether some Flemish nationalists like it or not).

I think that when a reunification takes place the Netherlands should rebuild the Koudenberg Palace (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleis_op_de_Koudenberg) in the direct vicinity of where it once stood (it's not possible to build it at it's old location since the place is now the location of the Royal Palace and several other buildings) and designate it as Parliament House and turn Brussels into our version of Berne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bern).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Paleis_op_de_Koudenberg.jpg

There is a reason why Amsterdam should not be the capital as it would focus all political and economic power in the Randstad Conurbation and I really believe that power should be spread as equally as possible.

[Pretan]

In England I'd like to see us run from a more central location but sadly a lot of our cities are either too small or too crap to be designated as capitals. I mean who'd want to be run from Birmingham? :rolleyes2:
Winchester is one of our old capitals and has nice architecture and a good feel to it but sadly it's quite far south. Chester is another potential capital but it's too close to Wales and the sea.

York! :D

[Ouistreham]

Originally Posted by Tuan Belanda:
"I always hear that the Walloons don't feel like joining France"


I wasn't aware of this ...

Of course, no way you could be aware of something that has no reality.


Brussels could become an EU city-state much like Rome is the Vatican city-state? :D

Since the EU has no future at all, Brussels as a city-state would become an English speaking Arabic-Turkish Caliphate (with American blessing of course) in the heart of Europe.

This shall be avoided at all cost.

[Dandelion]

(particularly when the Walloons would join us in the formation of a Whole Netherlands and they should be more than welcome to join our ranks whether some Flemish nationalists like it or not).


Don't forget the 'whether some Walloons like it or not'. Historically even some Dutchmen weren't fond of the idea:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unie_van_Atrecht#Relatie_met_Walloni.C3.AB


Van oudsher worden de Walen met de vinger gewezen voor de scheuring van de Nederlanden. Zo liet de historicus van de Staten Gilbert Roy zich al direct na de totstandkoming van de Unies in 1579 laatdunkend uit over de "Walons Espaignolisez, qui se sont vestus de la brutale tyrannie, pestulance et arrogance Espaignole...". Emanuel van Meteren schreef in 1608 de scheuring van de Nederlanden toe aan "...onbehoorlijke handelinghe der Walen". Na het Twaalfjarig Bestand beaamde Adriaen Valerius deze stelling. P.C. Hooft voegde er in 1635 aan toe, dat er daarom niet veel te verwachten viel van een vereniging met de Waalse gebieden. Charles de Coster schreef in De Legende van Uilenspiegel (1896, pp. 636–637): "Belgieland wierd verwoest door de Walen die ontevreden waren over de Pacificatie van Gent dewelke, naar men zeide, allen haat moest uitdooven. En de Waalsche Paternosterknechten, met groote zwarte rozenkransen om den hals, van dewelke tweeduizend te Spienne, in Henegouwen, wierden gevonden, stalen onder hun tweeduizend, twaalfhonderd ossen en peerden, kozen het beste uit velden en sompen, ontvoerden vrouwen en meidekens, aten steeds zonder betalen, en verbrandden in de schuren de gewapende boeren, die zich niet gedwee de vrucht van hunne noeste vlijt lieten ontrooven."

[Heart of Oak]

York! :D

I agree, York is very nice n clean, beautiful buildings, loverly city wall and if Im not mistaken, has always been a important city.

But on the other hand, Liester is a large city, in the midlands, but it dose have a high crime rate, mass unemployment and drugs are rife...
with some cash pumped into it, and a better police presence it could make a reasonable capital...

Of coarse bath would be my choice, but it is very small, small parsels and all that, only kidding...:thumb001:

[Heart of Oak]

On the matter of Belgium, I agree with Loki, what he says makes sense to me...

however I do believe the part that contains Dralos should be segregated, from the rest of the world, perhaps bulldozed to the ground...

[poiuytrewq0987]

The one and only reason which keeps Belgium united is the EU and when EU falls, Belgium will fall too. French politicians already said that if Belgium falls, they are ready to embrace Walloon territories. Then Netherlands gets the Flemish one and the case closes.

Belgium is just a fake country created by French elite. There is no such a nation as Belgians and there was never b4 either. There are just French and Flemish people in there. French elite desired to create a second Switzerland, a new country, united on top power which comes from external support. Thats how they created Belgium and branded it as the so-called capital of European Union. So, it continues to survive due to EU but they couldn't even form a government for more than a year, breaking the world record of post-war Iraq in this.

British MEP Nigel Farage summarizes what is Belgium and what`s not.


Belgian President doesn't even know Belgian anthem and he thinks French anthem is also theirs, whatta disastrous failure this is!!!

True, Belgium is essentially Dutch version of Macedonia. I don't think Wallonian part of Belgium should go to France. France is large enough a country whereas the Netherlands is tiny in comparison. It would do the balance of power in Europe a lot of good if Belgium was annexed to Netherlands I think.

[dralos]

i dont think belgians want to be annexed to holland,they're happy with belgium being independent

[dralos]

On the matter of Belgium, I agree with Loki, what he says makes sense to me...

however I do believe the part that contains Dralos should be segregated, from the rest of the world, perhaps bulldozed to the ground...
harsh words my friend but it would be oke if it segregated with me being the only mand and all the rest beautiful women:D
and a horse when you visit to see how it is living the belgian dream:D

[Mraz]

i dont think belgians want to be annexed to holland,they're happy with belgium being independent

http://static.ladh.eu/pictures_news/art_119854.jpg

[dralos]

look how happy they are:D

[Albion]

True, Belgium is essentially Dutch version of Macedonia. I don't think Wallonian part of Belgium should go to France. France is large enough a country whereas the Netherlands is tiny in comparison. It would do the balance of power in Europe a lot of good if Belgium was annexed to Netherlands I think.

Wallonia doesn't have a large enough population, territory or economy to make much difference.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Wallonia doesn't have a large enough population, territory or economy to make much difference.

A reunited Netherlands would be like a Poland in the west. Population of the country would be increased to 28 million, its GDP increased to $1.3 trillion, its territorial reach increased to something-90,000 km. Another modest gain could also be made if Luxembourg were to become part of this reunited kingdom.

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/lowcountries/nl181539.gif

[Dandelion]

What is being called 'Flemish'-speaking on that map is actually Dutch-speaking. To me Flemish is only the historical South-Western dialects of Dutch, all other claims are anti-intellectual.
Sadly very prominent in the 19th century. All Germanic-speakers were collectively called 'Flemish'-speaking, hence you even see the German speaking parts being called such in the map above. The yokels hijacked civilisation in that era. Be aware that we're talking about Belgium here. :p