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poiuytrewq0987
07-05-2012, 08:14 AM
General data on the language

Pomaks are those whose mother tongue is Pomakika (name in Greek -ÐïìÜêïé)/ Pomakci (name in their language); most linguists call that language Pomak and, sometimes, Bulgarian. The Pomak language belongs to the linguistic family of the Southern Slavic languages, and, within them, to the linguistic group of Bulgaro-Macedonian. There is no information on Pomak dialects. Although there is no written tradition, the appropriate alphabet to write the language is the Cyrillic. It is generally believed that Pomak is one of the various Bulgaro-Macedonian dialects which existed in the Southern Balkans before the emergence of modern nation-states and their corresponding literary languages.

Pomaks live in the three departments of Western Thrace: they are the main component of the Muslim (in fact today Turkish) minority in Xanthi. There have not been any official statistics since 1951 (and the preceding statistical data are not very trustworthy). The best estimate for the Pomaks today is a figure around 30,000. The Greek state gives an estimate of 35,000 (COMS, 1994); so do authors ‘acceptable’ to the Greek state: Hidiroglou (1991:45) and Notaras (1994:47). The 30,000 estimate is based on a Greek Helsinki Monitor/Minority Rights Group-Greece detailed estimation, on the basis of the census data and the synthesis of the minority communities as provided by both the Greek authorities and local minority sources. It is also the estimate of Nakratzas (1988:131) and De Jong (1994). Seyppel (1989:42) gives an estimate of 20,000-30,000.

Pomaks, along with Turks and Muslim Roma living in Thrace, are officially recognized as a religious Muslim minority, in accordance with the Treaty of Lausanne (1923) and formally enjoy the corresponding rights, though they have been treated as Turkish and not Pomak speakers by the authorities. So, there is no teaching of their language, despite the Treaty of Lausanne’s guarantee of education in the Muslims’ own language; this deficiency is admitted even by the official Greek authorities (COMS, 1994). Likewise, there is no teaching in Pomak, but it is sometimes used by teachers to explain some things orally to kindergarten and primary school pupils. If required, Pomak may be used in courts and interpreters will be provided, as this is guaranteed by the Treaty of Lausanne: nevertheless, Pomaks use Turkish in such occasions.

Western Thrace was first incorporated into Greece after World War I; its definite inclusion was the result of the Treaty of Lausanne (1923). The latter also called for an exchange of population between Greece and Turkey: all Muslims of Greece were to resettle in Turkey and all Orthodox of Turkey were to resettle in Greece. There were two exceptions: Muslims could stay in Thrace and Greeks in Istanbul (Constantinople in Greek), Gokceada (Imvros) and Bozcaada (Tenedos). The Muslims of Thrace were officially recognized as a minority, and had the rights to education in their own languages and to religious freedom. The Pomaks were officially recognized, therefore, as one component of the Muslim minority. Since 1951, Pomaks have been able to attend either Greek schools or Turkish schools. There have never been any Pomak schools, as, for the Greek state, Pomak is a language without a written form (COMS, 1994). Moreover, in the 1950s and 1960s, all minority schools and institutions were officially and compulsorily called Turkish rather than Muslim; the opposite went into effect in the late 1960s, under the junta, and has persisted ever since.

Pomaks are Muslims and their religious services are held in Arabic. Moreover, some distinct Pomak festivals in the Rodopi and Evros departments have been reported (COMS, 1994).

History of the community and the language

The historical origins of the Pomaks or Achrjani (as they also used to call themselves) are obscure (De Jong (1980:95); moreover, very little is known about their evolution, even as recently as in the XIX century. This ignorance therefore provides a fertile ground for another controversy in the Balkans. As Bulgarians, Greeks and Turks all claim that Pomaks are a component of their respective nations or simply want to assimilate them (Sarides, 1987), they provide different ‘national histories’ (or perhaps ‘national fictions’) which usually ‘devaluate or ignore “disturbing” facts’ (Seyppel, 1989:43 & 48).

Greek authors consider Pomaks to be the descendants of ancient Thracian tribes which were in turn Hellenized, Latinized, Slavized, Christianized and finally Islamized. Those of them who stayed in the mountains succeeded in remaining ‘pure’ descendants of these ancient tribes and they have many Greek, if not Homeric, words in their vocabulary. Greeks even use anthropometric and ‘blood-group’ research to prove that Pomaks are very different from Turks and are similar to Greeks (Seyppel, 1989:42; Sarides, 1987 and references therein; Hidiroglou, 1991 and references therein). For Greeks, Pomak is a derivative of the Ancient Greek word ‘Pomax’ (‘drinker’) which reflects the Thracians’ known habit of drinking; and Achrjani is a derivative of the ancient Thracian tribe of ‘Agrianoi’ (Seyppel, 1989:48).

Bulgarian historians insist on the Pomak language, which is a variant of Bulgarian, albeit with some specific characteristics. This proves to them that Pomaks are Bulgarians who, probably in the XVII century, were forced to be Islamized; nevertheless, they remained crypto-Christians and have in fact preserved Bulgarian culture in its ‘purest’ form (Seyppel, 1989:42; Sarides, 1987 and references therein; Hidiroglou, 1991 and references therein). The Bulgarian view, in its basic elements, appears to be the most widely accepted outside the area (Wilkinson, 1951:314-5; Poulton, 1993). For Bulgarians, ‘Pomak’ comes from either the Turkish term ‘Pomagach’ (‘helper’), reflecting the social position of Pomaks in the Ottoman period, or from the Bulgarian ‘Pomochamedanci’ (‘Islamized’); as for Achrjani, it is supposed to come from Old Bulgarian ‘Aagarjani’ (‘infidels’) (Seyppel, 1989:47).

Finally, Turks base their arguments on the Muslim religion of the Pomaks. According to them, they are the descendants of various Turkish tribes (Pechenegs, Avars, Kumans) which established themselves in the Southern Balkans before the latter’s conquest by the Ottomans. So, Pomaks are the oldest Turkish population in Europe and, perhaps, ‘pure-blooded’ Turks (Seyppel, 1989:42; Sarides, 1987 and references therein; Hidiroglou, 1991 and references therein). The word Pomak, in this version, comes from Turkish ‘Pomagach’ (‘helper’) and Achrjani from the Persian word ‘Ahiyan’ (the known religious fraternities) (Seyppel, 1989:48). Pomaks in Greece prefer to subscribe to the Turkish version of their origins, in accordance with the Turkish national identity they have developed in recent decades. On the other hand, Pomaks in Bulgaria (usually called Bulgarian Muslims) are divided: some have Bulgarian leanings, others Turkish leanings while others have a separate ethnic identity.

The Muslim Pomaks helped the Sultan crash the Bulgarian uprising in 1876, and subsequently disagreed with the San Stefano Treaty provisions which led to the stillborn Great Bulgaria: they revolted to create an autonomous administration which survived for many years, in some 20 localities in the Rhodope mountains (Dalegre, 1995:123-38). Besides, in 1913, during the short-lived ‘Republic of Gumuldjina’ in Thrace, created after the retreat of Bulgarian and Ottoman troops, the Pomaks who had been forcefully Christianized by Bulgarians returned to their Muslim religion. Also, after World War I in 1918, eight Pomak deputies of the Bulgarian parliament had sent a memo to Greek leader E. Venizelos and the French delegation, asking for Greece’s protection as a reaction to previous repeated efforts of the Bulgarians to fully assimilate them by Christianizing them, and eventually for Thrace’s annexation to Greece; at the same time, the representatives of the Turkish Committee of Gumuldjina petitioned to the Great Powers for Thrace’s autonomy, while other Pomaks favored Thrace to remain Bulgarian (Dalegre, 1995:168-71; Divani, 1995:60 -the latter omits the pro-Bulgarian petition); likewise, a Pomak delegation from Greece and Bulgaria made similar claims after World War II (Dalegre, 1995: 198-9; Sarides, 1987).

After 1923, Pomaks who lived in Greece outside Thrace had to resettle in Turkey because they were exchanged as Muslims in accordance with the Treaty of Lausanne. Only Pomaks in Thrace were exempted from this mandatory exchange of populations and stayed in Greece: they subsequently were among the most stringent opponents of the Kemalist reforms in Turkey, and therefore of the links between the Muslim minority in Thrace and the secular Turkish state.

During World War II, Bulgarians once again implemented a Bulgarization campaign among Pomaks, with some collaboration of the latter; as a consequence, the post-war Greek governments, from the time of the Civil War on, suspected the Pomaks of being the fifth column of communist Bulgaria; hence both the restricted military zone introduced in their mountain villages and the decision to send Pomak children to Turkish language schools, in an effort to distance them from Bulgarians. It is probably for that reason that Greek authorities decreed in 1954 that all Muslim institutions change their names to Turkish, as Turkey at the time was a trusted NATO ally in the Cold War era; fifteen years later, the military junta reversed Greek policy, in essence banning the word Turkish and substituting the word Muslim for it (Sarides, 1987). The post-1974 democratic Greek state has been upholding that ruling; but Pomaks have by now acquired a solid Turkish national identity and such measures can only aggravate the tensions and the feeling of discrimination among them.

Current situation of the community and the language

Through the end of 1995, most Pomaks lived in a military “restricted zone”, access to which required a special permission, hardly ever granted to foreigners and therefore to foreign scholars (Seyppel, 1989:44). The zone was abolished in November 1995. The inhabitants of the villages within the zone have had special identity cards which restrict their freedom of movement within the limits of the department (within 30 km from their village through 1992): to travel or resettle further away, they too need a permit from the authorities, although this provision appears not to be strictly enforced (Dimitras, 1991:78; & 1994:21-2). These special measures were not abolished in November 1995.

Pomaks identify themselves with the Turks and, in the presence of outsiders, would even change the language of communication among themselves from Pomak into Turkish (Seyppel, 1989:47; Frangopoulos, 1990:90; Dimitras, 1991:77). Most Pomaks have today a double identity: an ethnic Pomak and a national Turkish one (see Dede, 1994:13). This assimilation into the Turkish nation was certainly helped by the Greek state’s decision, in 1951, to introduce Turkish-language education for Pomaks in an effort to distance them from Bulgarians. But, it is believed that the main reason for the Muslim minority’s homogenization has been the Pomaks’ feeling that through their identification with Turks they would no longer be a minority into a minority, or have no one to defend their rights.

Some Pomaks go as far as denying the existence of an ethnic Pomak identity, just like some Arvanites, Vlachs, or Macedonians deny the existence of a separate ethnic identity besides their Greek national identity. Moreover, they hear with incredulity that their language can be written, believing that such efforts are aiming at distancing them from Turks (Frangopoulos, 1988:4).

So, there is no distinct Pomak leadership today: the community’s leaders form part of the Turkish minority leadership and defend Pomak interests as Turkish interests (Sarides, 1987). Pomaks, Turks and Muslim Roma in Thrace face many problems of discrimination from Greek authorities and a growing hostility from Greek public opinion (Helsinki Watch, 1990; Dimitras, 1991 & 1994). The persistent refusal of Greek authorities to respond to the minority’s demands led to a radicalization of the minority’s attitude, reflected also in the emergence since 1985 of independent minority candidates who have been receiving the majority of Muslim votes. Pomaks are also resenting the new effort of Greek authorities, evident since 1994, to attempt to dissociate them from the Turks and to give -at least to the most cooperating among- them some privileges, like access to higher education institutions or to officer rank during their military service: when Pomak leaders protest and remind that they have a Turkish national or ethnic identity, they become the object of violent, often insulting, attacks by Greek media (like Kathimerini) and political leaders (like the Parliament’s Speaker Apostolos Kaklamanis).

In education, the Pomak language has never been included in the educational curricula of the modern Greek state, but it is used as a means of communication among pupils at schools and, at the kindergartenand elementary level, sometimes by teachers. Otherwise, Pomaks attend the same schools with Turks and Muslim Roma in Thrace. According to Greek authorities, in 1994, for the whole Muslim (indeed Turkish) community, there were 231 Muslim elementary schools with 8,591 pupils and two minority secondary schools plus two Muslim seminars with 511 students: the secondary schools are obviously insufficient for the needs of the community, which is thus discouraged to send the children beyond primary school, although, according to Greek law, education is mandatory through the third year of secondary school. Many Pomak families, just like many Turkish families, therefore choose to send their children to schools in Turkey. Moreover, there is hardly any use of the language towards the authorities and in public services: in theory, Pomaks are allowed to address them in their language, through interpreters, but, as most speak Greek, they hardly ever opt to do it.

Today, most Pomaks are fluent in Turkish (the language of their education and the dominant language within the broad Muslim community), understand some Arabic (the language of the Koran) and can also speak Greek (a language they use to communicate with Greeks and Greek authorities). In the mountain villages, most speak Pomak at home; their language does not seem to be severely threatened with extinction and its use is not systematically discouraged by Greek authorities; nevertheless, as Pomaks identify with Turks, there is a tendency among the latter to discourage the use of Pomak, so as to achieve a better homogenization (i.e. Turkification) of the Muslim minority. Moreover, it appears that there is a slow decline in the use of the language among younger generations (De Jong, 1994). There are no studies on language use comparable to the ones for the other linguistic communities whose languages are not used at schools (Arvanites, Vlachs, Macedonians).

Finally, although Pomaks live on the other side of the Greek-Bulgarian frontier too, there are very few transfrontier contacts: in fact, since the beginning of the Cold War, border crossings to Bulgaria have been closed in the two departments with significant Pomak populations (Xanthi and Rodopi), as Greek authorities wanted to avoid Bulgarian infiltration of the Pomaks of Greece. In late 1995, Greece and Bulgaria agreed to reopen these crossings. Their closing was one reason why most Pomak villages had since then been included in restricted military zones, with special permits been required to enter in or leave from these zones, even through 1994.

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/pomaks.html

dralos
07-05-2012, 11:49 AM
poor bulgarians,they lost so much people by the deeds of serbs
ancient makis,pomaks,their history has much similarity with the albanian one,both have been damaged by serbian greed

morski
07-05-2012, 12:11 PM
Bulgarian historians insist on the Pomak language, which is a variant of Bulgarian, albeit with some specific characteristics.¹ This proves to them that Pomaks are Bulgarians who, probably in the XVII century, were forced to be Islamized; nevertheless, they remained crypto-Christians and have in fact preserved Bulgarian culture in its ‘purest’ form (Seyppel, 1989:42; Sarides, 1987 and references therein; Hidiroglou, 1991 and references therein). The Bulgarian view, in its basic elements, appears to be the most widely accepted outside the area (Wilkinson, 1951:314-5; Poulton, 1993). For Bulgarians, ‘Pomak’ comes from either the Turkish term ‘Pomagach’² (‘helper’), reflecting the social position of Pomaks in the Ottoman period, or from the Bulgarian ‘Pomochamedanci’ (‘Islamized’); as for Achrjani, it is supposed to come from Old Bulgarian ‘Aagarjani’ (‘infidels’) (Seyppel, 1989:47).


http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/pomaks.html

Some slight errors in this passage:

¹ Nothing specific. They speak the same dialect as their Christian neighbours.

² That's not a Turkish word. It's Bulgarian and comes from the verb pomagam(to help) and is also related to the word pomosht(help).

Azalea
07-05-2012, 12:30 PM
Pomaks identify themselves with the Turks and, in the presence of outsiders, would even change the language of communication among themselves from Pomak into Turkish (Seyppel, 1989:47; Frangopoulos, 1990:90; Dimitras, 1991:77). Most Pomaks have today a double identity: an ethnic Pomak and a national Turkish one (see Dede, 1994:13). This assimilation into the Turkish nation was certainly helped by the Greek state’s decision, in 1951, to introduce Turkish-language education for Pomaks in an effort to distance them from Bulgarians. But, it is believed that the main reason for the Muslim minority’s homogenization has been the Pomaks’ feeling that through their identification with Turks they would no longer be a minority into a minority, or have no one to defend their rights.

Another reason for this is the anti-muslim campagne done in the communist area of Bulgaria. Where Bulgaria forcefully tried to assimilate both Turks and Pomaks into Christian Bulgarians (by forbidding muslim/Turkish names etc.). I remember a study done about the Pomak ethnic identity from before the communist area, most Pomaks declared themselves as Pomak or Bulgarian muslim only whereas after the commnist area, most Pomaks choose to identify as Turk.

morski
07-05-2012, 12:32 PM
Another reason for this is the anti-muslim campagne in the communist area of Bulgaria. Where Bulgaria forcefully tried to assimilate both Turks and Pomaks into Christian Bulgarians (by forbidding muslim/Turkish names etc.). I remember a study done about the Pomak ethnic identity from before the communist area, most Pomaks declared themselves as Pomak or Bulgarian muslim only whereas after the commnist area, most Pomaks choose to identify as Turk.

Not into Christian Bulgarians, but secular citizens of the Bulgarian republic. We all had to be atheists bak then.

Archduke
07-05-2012, 12:35 PM
Another reason for this is the anti-muslim campagne done in the communist area of Bulgaria. Where Bulgaria forcefully tried to assimilate both Turks and Pomaks into Christian Bulgarians (by forbidding muslim/Turkish names etc.). I remember a study done about the Pomak ethnic identity from before the communist area, most Pomaks declared themselves as Pomak or Bulgarian muslim only whereas after the commnist area, most Pomaks choose to identify as Turk.

And what you want to prove with this? Most pomaks declare themselves as Bulgarians. I don't know from where you know that Pomaks choosed to indentify as Turks. Probably Pomaks in Turkey do it.

Azalea
07-05-2012, 12:36 PM
Not into Christian Bulgarians, but secular citizens of the Bulgarian republic. We all had to be atheists bak then.

Giving muslim Turks, Pomaks & Gypsies Christian Bulgarian names and forbidding them to speak Turkish is not exactly 'secularizing' them only. There was an obvious 'secret' agenda, which was to Bulgarify the ethnic minorities.

Azalea
07-05-2012, 12:37 PM
And what you want to prove with that? Most pomaks declare themselfs as Bulgarians. I don't know from where you know that Pomaks choosed to indentify as Turks. Probably Pomaks in Turkey do it.

I am not proving anything, I am trying to explain what's been written in this study. It's the study that says that a good part of the Pomaks identify with Turks or even as Turk.

morski
07-05-2012, 12:41 PM
Giving muslim Turks, Pomaks & Gypsies Christian Bulgarian names and forbidding them to speak Turkish is not exactly 'secularizing' them only. There was an obvious 'secret' agenda, which was to Bulgarify the ethnic minorities.

Well, Pomaks are not a real minority. They are more of an ethnographic group of the Bulgarian ethnos.

Half of the Bulgarian names aren't Christian. This religious bullshit was in the minds of the muftis only.

The process was aimed at homogenisation of the population that's for sure.

morski
07-05-2012, 12:42 PM
I am not proving anything, I am trying to explain what's been written in this study. It's the study that says that a good part of the Pomaks identify with Turks or even as Turk.

That holds true for the Pomaks in Greece and a very small fraction of those in Bulgaria.

Azalea
07-05-2012, 12:44 PM
Well, Pomaks are not a real minority. They are more of an ethnographic group of the Bulgarian ethnos.

Half of the Bulgarian names aren't Christian. This religious bullshit was in the minds of the muftis only.

The process was aimed at homogenisation of the population that's for sure.

Which is just another way of saying that there was an assimilation process going on (forcefully).

Azalea
07-05-2012, 12:46 PM
That holds true for the Pomaks in Greece and a very small fraction of those in Bulgaria.

Actually, I was speaking about the Pomaks in Bulgaria. Like I said, it was a study done about the ethnic identify of the Pomaks before and after the communist area. I'll find the study and show it to you.

poiuytrewq0987
07-05-2012, 12:47 PM
I am not proving anything, I am trying to explain what's been written in this study. It's the study that says that a good part of the Pomaks identify with Turks or even as Turk.

The study also mentions the reason why Pomaks in Western Thrace identify as Turkish.


Most Pomaks have today a double identity: an ethnic Pomak and a national Turkish one (see Dede, 1994:13). This assimilation into the Turkish nation was certainly helped by the Greek state’s decision, in 1951, to introduce Turkish-language education for Pomaks in an effort to distance them from Bulgarians.

The Greeks apply their racism on Bulgarians here but this time they did it to assimilate Bulgarian Pomaks into Turkish identity rather than Hellenize them.


But, it is believed that the main reason for the Muslim minority’s homogenization has been the Pomaks’ feeling that through their identification with Turks they would no longer be a minority into a minority, or have no one to defend their rights.

Same story in Aegean Macedonia where Macedonians are constantly discriminated unless they self-Hellenize to avoid mass-discrimination if they ever want the hope of getting equal treatment, make a good life, etc. The Greeks, once more, have shown they are the biggest racists on the Balkans.

morski
07-05-2012, 12:49 PM
Which is just another way of saying that there was an assimilation process going on (forcefully).

Yes, that was the whole idea of the operation.:rolleyes: But it was not religious as you imply, on the contrary - it was anti-religious.

Azalea
07-05-2012, 12:55 PM
Yes, that was the whole idea of the operation.:rolleyes: But it was not religious as you imply, on the contrary - it was anti-religious.

It was communistic so anti-religious, ofcourse. But you can not deny that the main goal was to assimilate these people into the mainstream Bulgarian ethnicity, which had a obvious and firm Christian character. It's no suprise that the names given to the muslims had a Christian character also. So no, there was no operation to 'Christinise' the muslims, but with Bulgarifying them, you are already Christinizing them indirectly.

morski
07-05-2012, 12:59 PM
It was communistic so anti-religious, ofcourse. But you can not deny that the main goal was to assimilate these people into the mainstream Bulgarian ethnicity, which had a obvious and firm Christian character. It's no suprise that the names given to the muslims had a Christian character also. So no, there was no operation to 'Christinise' the muslims, but with Bulgarifying them, you are already Christinizing them.

That's nonesense, since the state was officially secular and hostile to any religion and the new names given to the Muslims were probably around 50\50 Christian\Non-Christian.

I'm not denying anything. I'm well aware of the op and why it was carried on. And I remember the long lines of cars going South as well.

Onur
07-05-2012, 01:14 PM
The Greeks apply their racism on Bulgarians here but this time they did it to assimilate Bulgarian Pomaks into Turkish identity rather than Hellenize them.
There was a reason for that.

Actually Greek state are doing everything to separate Pomaks from Turks but they prefer them to get educated in Turkish instead of Bulgarian. As much as they hate, they have to do that because if they start Bulgarian education in Greece, then there is a danger of slavic speaking Macedonian population to apply these Bulgarian schools instead of Greek one.

So, they have chosen the "lesser evil" for the Greek state and they prefer 15.0000 Pomaks to get educated in Turkish rather than indirectly causing a million of slavic Macedonians in Greece to send their children to Bulgarian schools. If they would do that, then they would shoot their own foot with this action.

Onur
07-05-2012, 01:32 PM
I am following western Thrace media and i read a lot of articles about Pomaks. Karazaferis and his gang in LAOS party were saying that Pomaks should be set free from the "grasp of Turks"!!! They also have few pro-Greek Pomaks with them and founded associations for Pomaks and they spread stupid propaganda like they were supposedly an ancient Hellenic tribe!!! They did same for christian Gagauz Turks in Greece and now they aim for Pomaks.

So, atm the word "Turk, Turkish" is still forbidden to use in Greece for any school or association and several people gone jail because of this but contrary, it`s encouraged to use "Pomak"!!!

This is the webpage of a newspaper called "Zagalisa". It`s getting published specifically for the Pomak community in Greece, funded and delivered to the Pomaks for free by fascist LAOS party and Greek government. Ofc it`s full of pathetic claims of Greek propaganda and as usual, never ending Turkish-hate!!!

The articles are in Greek and this is google translation. Here are some of their articles;

Usual fabricated stories of big bad Turks!;

My mother, my own mom
My mother,
Three Turks came
Your daughter to get
Do not let my mom
Turks take to Nineteen year old daughter
growing up In Greek black soil
In Greek green meadow
Red flowers in meadow
Fruit trees and green shadows
How will endure my mom
Turks to get me

After all the folk songs are the songs of the people. Through folk songs that ordinary people of older ages had the opportunity to sing for the suffering, the pains, joys, sorrows, etc. The brutality of the Turks was not limited only to massacre women and children and elders. Those women were by force the Ottomans faced a daily physical and mental rape.

So now everyone should put aside their servility and the Janissaries and replace the genocidal offensive slogan of the Turkish minority of speech and truth: We are proud that we Pomaks!
http://zagalisa.gr/content/pomakiko-zaloggo-momtski-kamen

Turks are bad and we Pomaks are not related with them but with the beautiful Hellenes!!!


You Skopians, take your hands off from Pomaks of Greece and Alexander the Great. Both are ancient Hellenic only!!!:

Hands off the Pomaks!

Skopje comedy, Macedonians Encyclopedia
From the old Skopianoi had raised claims against Greek Pomaks of Thrace, claiming that the latter are Islamised Macedonians. On the issue but the "Makedonikis Encyclopedia" by the Academy of Sciences and Arts (MANU) FYROM in September 2009, the case became more serious. The Skopje rampant unbridled imagination and are rather difficult to follow.

As for the self-proclaimed Macedonians in Greece, urge them to continue to cooperate with the Turks in Thrace our Genocide (clubs, committees, media) and will soon see the benefits of this fascist cooperation based solely on public hate against Greece.
http://zagalisa.gr/content/kato-ta-xeria-apo-toys-pomakoys
Apparently, there are some Makedonski in Greece who cooperate with Turks of western Thrace and these people are bad bad fascist Skopiani who works with evil Turks to create hate against Greece. Hellenic Pomaks condemns both!!!


We, the hellenic Pomaks finally see the light and learn that Ataturk didn't even born in Salonika and this was just a Turkish lie!!!;

THE BIG LIE AND THE REVELATION OF TRUTH! Mustafa Kemal NOT BORN IN THESSALONIKI
The Zagalisa reveals today after a careful site investigation of several months, that the claim of the birth of Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) in Thessaloniki is a big and beautiful TALE, To mock the Turks themselves, but many Muslims in Thrace. A time will prove how easily the Turks used the lie to achieve their goals. But the truth is hidden, and to use their own start saying 'The sun is hidden in the mud! "

In 1934 the Greek government posted outside the house-monkey, a sign which stated that "Here was born Mustafa Kemal. The Turks were happy for the unexpected Greek gift, took monkey-house and then brought monkey furniture and other imitations of the palaces Dolmabahce and Topkapi Istanbul, even ... Kemal clothes and expose more to the museum, giving the impression to visitors of the museum now that the monkey furniture and costumes used in this house by himself Kemal. Kemal's hand never touched these faux furniture…

In many leaves the Turkish-speaking newspapers recorded more often pictures of clubs and minority schools in Thrace, who visited the house ... the great leader! It has become fashionable for each "Turk" Thrace! But the pilgrimage is Monkey Party…

ideological function painted with the pink monkey-house there is a strong and consistently directed more schools and clubs from Thrace to further deepen the consciousness of Turkification Pomaks.
Hmm Okay, we Pomaks also learned that Ataturk didn't even born in Salonika and it was just a plot of Ankara to further Turkify Pomaks in Greece!!! They bought monkey furniture for that monkey house and all the Turks and deceived Pomaks who goes there just joins a monkey party, nothing else!!!


And finally, Greek government advices to all the Hellenic Pomaks to learn this poem by heart!!!:

Born a Pomak
T’ was in a land
I opened my eyes
Where mountains spanned
A grand home small in size

With Alexander the great
I fought alongside
The enemy to abate
And my home to bide

In my earthly pace
I fought the beast
Peddlers of my race
On my race they feast

From my mother’s bosom
I learned a tale
That I’m treated as besom
Behind anyone’s trail

Neither turk
Nor slavic am I
Born a Pomak
A Thracian fighter I cry

The teachings of my parents
And my anscestors’ thoughts
Told me of conquerers in
extinction
Who came with dubious
distinction
Certain strangers…

Wouldn’t allow me to speak along
Nor to sing my own song
In native Pomak to speak
My own language to seek

But I am very proud
And I cry it out loud

That...

My native tongue is Pomak as heir
An important heritage to bear

http://zagalisa.gr/content/born-pomak

This is good for shits and giggles but you can clearly see their intention. They wanna make Pomaks hostile to the Turks of Thrace, christian Macedonians and Bulgarians too. They are trying to hellenize them by fabricating stupid stories.

Bugarash
07-06-2012, 07:03 PM
Pomaks are pure bulgarians-all the foreign propagandas can only suck it up!

sadly the greek state now forces the learning of turkish in western thracian schools...while their mother tongue is one of the purest dialects of the bulgarian language.

Queen B
07-06-2012, 08:29 PM
I am not proving anything, I am trying to explain what's been written in this study. It's the study that says that a good part of the Pomaks identify with Turks or even as Turk.
That's also true.
The Bulgarian state has ''abandon'' Pomaks, while the Turkish state is supporting the Turks. It even support them with cable TV, and stuff like that.
So, instead of getting no support of Bulgaria, some of them, who have no real ''passion'' about their identity, they identify as Turks, not matter if they are Pomaks.

There was a reason for that.

Actually Greek state are doing everything to separate Pomaks from Turks but they prefer them to get educated in Turkish instead of Bulgarian. As much as they hate, they have to do that because if they start Bulgarian education in Greece, then there is a danger of slavic speaking Macedonian population to apply these Bulgarian schools instead of Greek one.

What you say it makes absolutely NO sense. If Greek state was doing everything to seperate Turks from Pomaks, they would have quite a lot of Pomak/Bulgarian schools, instead of teaching Turkish.


So, they have chosen the "lesser evil" for the Greek state and they prefer 15.0000 Pomaks to get educated in Turkish rather than indirectly causing a million of slavic Macedonians in Greece to send their children to Bulgarian schools. If they would do that, then they would shoot their own foot with this action.
:rotfl:

Yeah- I have seen the ''millions'' in the elections or the celebrations/festivals.

Even with daily buses from Skopje are not more than 5.000 :rotfl:

I am following western Thrace media and i read a lot of articles about Pomaks.
All of the articles you posted from there were completely bullshit :rotfl:
From the ''supermarket'' which was in fact a donation center and from the Samaras video, which has nothing to do with the translation you posted :lol:

Don't make yourself a clown, my fellow moderator :wink

Bugarash
07-07-2012, 11:14 PM
Only this i recognise

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/348/kartazname.jpg

Queen B
07-08-2012, 09:02 PM
Only this i recognise

Like if anyone cares about what you recognise :coffee:

Bugarash
07-08-2012, 10:50 PM
Like if anyone cares about what you recognise :coffee:

Greeks do...the ghost of the bulgarian komitagjis still haunts the northern parts of Greece;)

Queen B
07-08-2012, 10:51 PM
Greeks do...the ghost of the bulgarian komitagjis still haunts the northern parts of Greece;)

Nothing haunted me for 16 years, though :cool:

Midori
07-08-2012, 10:56 PM
Only this i recognise

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/348/kartazname.jpg

Hahaha :coffee: Like dandelion said, who cares about what you and a couple of other Bugarashi recognise.

Bugarash
07-08-2012, 11:29 PM
How about this

Florina,Aridea,Ianitsa,Seres,Drama,Edesa,Komotini, Ksaniti-to Bulgaria
greeks keep the rest

thats fair:coffee:

Midori
07-08-2012, 11:30 PM
How about this

Florina,Aridea,Seres,Drama,Edesa,Komotini,Ksaniti-to Bulgaria
greeks keep the rest

thats fair:coffee:

No. And you're not getting Vardarska either.

Queen B
07-08-2012, 11:31 PM
How about this

Florina,Aridea,Ianitsa,Seres,Drama,Edesa,Komotini, Ksaniti-to Bulgaria
greeks keep the rest

thats fair:coffee:

Sorry but you played and you lost :coffee:

dralos
07-08-2012, 11:32 PM
No. And you're not getting Vardarska either.
vadarska is albanian,he already has recognized that:D

Midori
07-08-2012, 11:33 PM
vadarska is albanian,he already has recognized that:D

Dude just STFU, Christians are 70% of the population here :coffee: For example not a single Albo lives in my part of Skopje.

Archduke
07-08-2012, 11:34 PM
vadarska is albanian,he already has recognized that:D

only northwestern fyrom is 100% albo territory actually.

dralos
07-08-2012, 11:35 PM
Dude just STFU, Christians are 70% of the population here :coffee: For example not a single Albo lives in my part of Skopje.
not for long,and you believe maki sources:D
and why so mean,did i deserve it:(

Midori
07-08-2012, 11:35 PM
only northwestern fyrom is 100% albo territory actually.

Even that part isn't 100%

dralos
07-08-2012, 11:35 PM
only northwestern fyrom is 100% albo territory actually.
western fyrom and you may have eastern before those ancients die out:D

Bugarash
07-08-2012, 11:37 PM
Treaty of San Stefano was the closest to picture the ethnic reality in the region

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Bulgaria-SanStefano_-%281878%29-byTodorBozhinov.png/769px-Bulgaria-SanStefano_-%281878%29-byTodorBozhinov.png

Archduke
07-08-2012, 11:37 PM
western fyrom and you may have eastern before those ancients die out:D

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_937bsX4LAEM/SwJ-eVhnzwI/AAAAAAAADQY/bdlzqB_IgAU/s320/%C3%8F%C6%92%C3%8E%C2%BA%C3%8E%C2%BF%C3%8F%E2%82%A C.jpg

Bugarash
07-08-2012, 11:38 PM
vadarska is albanian,he already has recognized that:D

There is a process of albanization

you are breeding like rats and takingover

dralos
07-08-2012, 11:39 PM
There is a process of albanization

you are breeding like rats and takingover
yes and there is nothing to be ashamed for :thumb001:

Alially
06-11-2015, 04:18 PM
Today, pomaks are living in very isolated villages, the rest identified themselves as Turkish because they don't want to assimilate into Greek agency.
Also there are lots of intermarriage between Turks and pomaks. So those children identified as Turks

Pausanias
06-11-2015, 04:35 PM
Today, pomaks are living in very isolated villages, the rest identified themselves as Turkish because they don't want to assimilate into Greek agency.
Also there are lots of intermarriage between Turks and pomaks. So those children identified as Turks

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Look how much turkish they feel themselves:

Pomak students marching on 25 March.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_-UmVWbwVs

:rolleyes:

Böri
06-11-2015, 05:05 PM
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Look how much turkish they feel themselves:

Pomak students marching on 25 March.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_-UmVWbwVs

:rolleyes:

what's the proof these girls are Pomak? Greece moved many people to that area since the end of the war. Turks+Pomaks maybe minority today. Pomaks are Muslim Bulgarians actually but they are heavily Turkified as historical fact as they lived inside Balkan Turks for how many centuries. After the Balkan war, Orthodox Bulgarians made them pay heavy price for this, there were case of forced conversions to Orthodoxy but it didn't work in the end of the day.

Kaspias
12-26-2018, 06:38 PM
Hi, gravedigger Kaspias is here.

Since so many people ask about Pomaks i want to bump this thread. I read whole text of OP, i can say most of them true, maybe all. I also read comments too and 90% of them bullshit. Every people claim different thing as in real life. There were some people in this forum judging my identify, i hope they can understand me after read the text.


Today, pomaks are living in very isolated villages, the rest identified themselves as Turkish because they don't want to assimilate into Greek agency.
Also there are lots of intermarriage between Turks and pomaks. So those children identified as Turks

This is true. However, as a son of one of those intermarried ones, i also identify myself as Pomak, not only Turk.

Crn Volk
12-27-2018, 01:41 AM
Hi, gravedigger Kaspias is here.

Since so many people ask about Pomaks i want to bump this thread. I read whole text of OP, i can say most of them true, maybe all. I also read comments too and 90% of them bullshit. Every people claim different thing as in real life. There were some people in this forum judging my identify, i hope they can understand me after read the text.



This is true. However, as a son of one of those intermarried ones, i also identify myself as Pomak, not only Turk.

What is the relationship like with the Greek state?

Kaspias
12-27-2018, 05:29 AM
What is the relationship like with the Greek state?

Not good. They have same opinions with Turks.

ioan assen
12-28-2018, 08:32 AM
However, as a son of one of those intermarried ones, i also identify myself as Pomak, not only Turk.
Pomak is Bulgarian. Muslim one, but Bulgarian nevertheless. There are not only Orthodox Bulgarians, there are catholics and other faiths, including muslim. So do you feel Bulgarian or you view Pomak as totally different ethnicity to Bulgarians?

Kaspias
12-28-2018, 09:01 AM
Pomak is Bulgarian. Muslim one, but Bulgarian nevertheless. There are not only Orthodox Bulgarians, there are catholics and other faiths, including muslim. So do you feel Bulgarian or you view Pomak as totally different ethnicity to Bulgarians?

It is clear we are not totally different than Bulgarians. Language is similar even same changing villages to villages. Genetically we are homogeneus without any other mix. Bulgarians have different genetic variants too. The main difference is obviously religion. I dont know current case in Bulgaria, but i think they are getting absorbed in society. But Greece Pomaks' view of Bulgarians as enemy or neutral another nation. They actually have some historical reasons for that. For me, i should say i don't have any problem with both Bulgarian and Turk identity. But i prefer to identify myself as Pomak, as a different ethnic than Bulgarians. Unlike general view we have totally different culture. More similar with Turks because of religion. To sum up, as i said, i don't have any problem with Bulgarian identity and i like them actually. I just prefer to Pomak identify, there are a lot of assimulation process and i feel the pressure since my childhood. I want to stay as Pomak.

ioan assen
01-02-2019, 11:48 AM
It is clear we are not totally different than Bulgarians. Language is similar even same changing villages to villages. Genetically we are homogeneus without any other mix. Bulgarians have different genetic variants too. The main difference is obviously religion. I dont know current case in Bulgaria, but i think they are getting absorbed in society. But Greece Pomaks' view of Bulgarians as enemy or neutral another nation. They actually have some historical reasons for that. For me, i should say i don't have any problem with both Bulgarian and Turk identity. But i prefer to identify myself as Pomak, as a different ethnic than Bulgarians. Unlike general view we have totally different culture. More similar with Turks because of religion. To sum up, as i said, i don't have any problem with Bulgarian identity and i like them actually. I just prefer to Pomak identify, there are a lot of assimulation process and i feel the pressure since my childhood. I want to stay as Pomak.
Interesting take. The genetics in my view could hardly be a proof of ethnicity though as I feel we are very mixed on the Balkans. However I don't think the Pomak-BG difference could be big (if any). I suppose its like how a regional group (for example Moesians) compares to the Bulgarians as a whole. There would be differences of course. Maybe more so with the Pomaks, which till recently, were more close off and the intermarriages with other Bulgarians were more rare, due to religion, no doubt.
As for if Pomaks are absorbed in the Bulgarian society: I would say yes (younger ones at least), but there are some of course who prefer to stick to their society and to not intermarry with other Bulgarians. I had an acquaintance - Bulgarian pomak, who was religious (very observing muslim) who did see himself as somewhat different to the main body of Bulgarians (at least I got that impression), but said his sister was not religious, married to Bulgarian and he said she felt like Bulgarian nationally. So I guess it depends on the person really.
There have been clashes somewhat between Pomaks and orthodox Bulgarians historically, but I d say that doesn't prove we have different origin. Just look at the Macedono-Bulgarian relations in the last 50 years... :)
Its strange how on the Balkans the religion is stronger factor than say language/culture/ethnicity. Just look how the Bulgarians in Northern Greece were Hellenized or how Greeks in Southern Black Sea coast were Bulgarized. Its astonishing that those different ethnicities became part of the main ethnicity, into which country they decided to stay. I d say its due to the same religion. The Pomaks still are in a sense closed off to other Bulgarians (or it is probably both ways), cause of the religion. The only Balkan group who managed to integrate its people from all faiths, strangely enough, is the Albanians.
As for the language: maybe because of this closeness, the Pomaks in a way have managed to retain their dialect (not that different to official Bulgarian though). The main difference is that they have retained more Turkish words, which were until recently shared with other Bulgarians, but in the 20th century those words were replaced in the official Bulgarian with Russian or western ones. I know those old Turkish words (that disappeared in official Bulgarian), but they sound simply archaic.

Kaspias
01-02-2019, 01:35 PM
Interesting take. The genetics in my view could hardly be a proof of ethnicity though as I feel we are very mixed on the Balkans. However I don't think the Pomak-BG difference could be big (if any). I suppose its like how a regional group (for example Moesians) compares to the Bulgarians as a whole. There would be differences of course. Maybe more so with the Pomaks, which till recently, were more close off and the intermarriages with other Bulgarians were more rare, due to religion, no doubt.
As for if Pomaks are absorbed in the Bulgarian society: I would say yes (younger ones at least), but there are some of course who prefer to stick to their society and to not intermarry with other Bulgarians. I had an acquaintance - Bulgarian pomak, who was religious (very observing muslim) who did see himself as somewhat different to the main body of Bulgarians (at least I got that impression), but said his sister was not religious, married to Bulgarian and he said she felt like Bulgarian nationally. So I guess it depends on the person really.
There have been clashes somewhat between Pomaks and orthodox Bulgarians historically, but I d say that doesn't prove we have different origin. Just look at the Macedono-Bulgarian relations in the last 50 years... :)
Its strange how on the Balkans the religion is stronger factor than say language/culture/ethnicity. Just look how the Bulgarians in Northern Greece were Hellenized or how Greeks in Southern Black Sea coast were Bulgarized. Its astonishing that those different ethnicities became part of the main ethnicity, into which country they decided to stay. I d say its due to the same religion. The Pomaks still are in a sense closed off to other Bulgarians (or it is probably both ways), cause of the religion. The only Balkan group who managed to integrate its people from all faiths, strangely enough, is the Albanians.
As for the language: maybe because of this closeness, the Pomaks in a way have managed to retain their dialect (not that different to official Bulgarian though). The main difference is that they have retained more Turkish words, which were until recently shared with other Bulgarians, but in the 20th century those words were replaced in the official Bulgarian with Russian or western ones. I know those old Turkish words (that disappeared in official Bulgarian), but they sound simply archaic.

I agree most of words you said.

Genetically yes, there are some differences. I can post some examples from Bulgarian and Pomak individuals' genetic results if you interested. Difference is like between Bulgarians and Macedonians, similar amounts.

About absorbing, yes i was actually expecting this. Same case in Turkey too, even 90% of Pomaks who live in Turkey hate their Pomak identity and identify themselves as Turk. It is normal to Pomaks identify themselves as Bulgarian in Bulgaria. But in Greece things are different. Pomaks live with Turks - 90% of them already intermarried with Turks. - Some prefer identify himself/herself as Pomak and some Turk. Changing person to person. Some still live in isolated villages and even don't know Greek. All of them bilingual Pomak and Turkish. Speaking Turkish mostly.

Yes, there was some clashes but i think this hatred not directly from them. Bulgaria-Macedonia clashes are mostly politic. On the other hand there were no politic conflict between Pomaks and anyone. This was only about religion. Orthodox gangs were attacking muslim villages till the 1990s, from the late 1800s. - my grandmother's sister and her husband died during one of this attacks. Of course they were just random people and have nothing to do with government. We have a song about them:


https://youtu.be/x_6ymC_xS4A


Perhaps you know, there were forbidden zone in Greek side of the Rhodope Mountains. It was because of this attacks and communist movements. Inside of this zone there were no security, and all Pomaks were living in there. They were using different passports in order to enter the zone. Normal Greek or Turk people couldn't enter there. (Removed in 1995)

Pomaks couldn't organized and couldn't defend themselves, my grandfather were telling me 10% of the population died or kidnapped between 60-80s. But i'm not average Pomak example, my family was reeve-muhtar of Pomak villages of their region. Of course there were some people live peacefully. In sum, the main reason why Pomaks see Bulgarians are enemy is this. And quite recent conflict. I think it won't change for Greece Pomaks, most of them migrated to Turkish villages from their mountain villages after Greece government removed forbidden zone. They basically think Turks saved them. Turkish Pomaks already assimilated. I'm even not talking about Balkan Wars or Russo-Turkish war. Pomaks still remember these days, and still telling to their children. They see Serbs as biggest evils of the world. Even we have an expression. "Wicked as a Serb"

I admire Albanians for reach this. I agree with you.

Pomak language is dying, Greece and Turkish Pomaks are speaking Turkish. Bulgarian Pomaks are speaking actual Bulgarian.

Proto-Shaman
01-02-2019, 01:47 PM
haplogroup Q L330, so

Kaspias
01-02-2019, 01:48 PM
haplogroup Q L330, so

What? My paternal grandfather is Turk, not Pomak.