Kurds do not divide Turkey but Invade

[Bugarash]

It would be smart for Turkey to let the kurds have a indipendent Kurdistan because the number of kurds is growing from the current 20 million in Turkey alone-about 35% of the total population and dues entering a phase that threats the survival of the entire turkish state.

With a indipendent Kurdistan the turks will benifit.



Kurds do not divide Turkey but Invade

Today half of the Kurds are living in western cities such as Ankara, İzmir, Bursa,İzmit,Adana,Antalya, Mersin, Konya, Manisa, Aydın,Samsun.

Even in Thracian and Blacksea region, the Kurdish population has been rapidly spreading. Such that, more Kurds have been living in the other parts of Turkey than the place that the Kurdists call Kurdistan. Furthermore Kurds have been obtaining the most important positions where they live, and have been rapidly rising economically, socially and culturally. Besides Kurdish population have a growth rate that is incomparable to the Turkish population.

According to the calculations, in 20-25 years Kurdish population will exceed the Turkish population. In this respect conscious and planned actions have been being carried out, the Kurdish population-growth has been being consciously encouraged. While this is done, in the cities such as Tokat, Amasya, Afyon Kastamonu, Sinop, Çankırı, Zonguldak,Samsun, Ordu, Sakarya, Giresun, Trabzon, Gümüşhane, Çorum, Edirne, Uşak,Kırıkkale, Bartın, Karabük where Turks are the majority, under the name of “family planning” the Turkish population-growth is tried to be restrained.

Turkish population-growth has stopped and it even shows a tendency to decrease. However, the family planning works in the Southeast have been failed because of the Kurdists that make the region population conscious in this respect. What’s more, by the AKP government’s coming to power the family planning in the Southeastern region has been ceased and the programme of distributing money per child has been started. In other words even more increase of Kurdish population has been intended. For Kurdish families, having many children has got to the point of a conscious movement.

According to the claim of Haftalık magazine;

In Turkey, Turkish population growth ceased 10 years ago, and for 5 years it has entered into a decreasing phase. The number of Turks decrease by 0.8% each year while Kurds increase at least by 3% each year. It is said that the population growth in Turkey is a Kurdish product. While agreeing this claim, I also think that the increase of arabs and gipsies should not be ignored.

One of the important declarations that reveals the aim of the Kurdistanization of Turkey belongs to the assassinated famous Kurdist journalist Musa Anter. Musa Anter by saying “İstanbul is the biggest Kurdish city.” “We are not so stupid to wish the division of Turkey and give up on İstanbul, Ankara and İzmir.” has very simply and bravely gave voice to the main goal that Kurds have in their mind. And maybe because of this and such declarations he made, for revealing the hidden aims he has been assassinated by PKK thinking that he harms Kurdism.

Today many holding companies of Turkey are owned by Kurds. Many giant corporations such as Toprak Holding and Ceylan Holding are owned by Kurds. Apart from this, Kurds dominate the business branches that bring hot money with a 75% share. Kurds have come to a dominating position in commerce in every region and city, it should not be very difficult to estimate that Kurdish riches support Kurdism, but do this in a very skilful and sneaky way.

The donations that make the Kurdish singers that earn large sums of money to Kurdist organizations are not a secret. The cultural storm that is blown in the media by the Kurdish origined singers who take part for free in the organizations that are organized by DEHAP (a pro-Kurdish political party) municipalities is based on the politics of the Kurdization of the cultural and artistic climate of Turkey. The Turkish culture which is tried to be captured by the Kurdish songs or the musical products with a Kurdish accent and the TV series that are produced in the frames of the Kurdish cultural identity faces degeneration and assimilation.

In politics, as well, a Kurdization has been experienced in its true meaning. At least half of the deputies and ministries in the Grand National Assembly of Turkey are Kurdish origined. Not only the Southeast deputies but also an important portion of the Central and Western Anatolia deputies are Kurdish origined. In this point, it should be recalled that Mesut Barzani said “I have seventy five men in the Grand National Assembly of Turkey.” If Barzani has seventy five men then Talabani must have at least that much of men as well. And think about the number of the deputies that are Apo (Abdullah Öcalan, the founding leader of PKK) supporters.

The Kurdish origined deputies would not hesitate to do what is required by their fundamental identity when the appropriate political and social atmosphere forms (they already do it sneakily). In order to give you an idea about it, let us remind you the voting that took place in the near past. The political attitudes of the East and Southeast deputies that upon the wishes of Barzani and Talabani rejected as a whole the offer of the USA to the Turkish army to carry out a joint operation to northern Irak are known.

In order to demonstrate the power of Kurds in politics, we should, as well, recall that the former Minister of Foreign Affairs, Abdullah Gül boasted by more than half of the AKP deputies being Kurdish origined. Anyway, Abdullah Gül himself is not a Turk either. His family moved to Kayseri from Siirt in the past.

The statement of Baykal (leader of the Republican People’s Party, CHP) is tragic but true

He states in a statement he made to Takvim newspaper:

“Kurds can have the most beautiful yalı (a seaside house in Istanbul) and the most beautiful girls of Istanbul. Our everything is common. For this reason Kurds would not want a separation either.”

Tragic but a true determination. Let’s figure it out it. Except a couple of idiot Kurds, no Kurd wants separation. Their intention is not to divide or to get divided but to get the resources and the cities of Turkey. In the meanwhile, they will, of course, consider it a gain if they can obtain an autonomy in the cities that they will get the majority in the Eastern and Southeastern Anatolia.

As some shallow minded people believe, the name of the real danger is not the “separatist Kurds”, but the “invasive Kurds”."

[Baltic_Pagan]

Turks are going to burn in Hell. All they do is mock God

[Linet]

Kurds are the ancient tribe of Kardouchs and are described as living in the very same lands they live today, from the ancient Greek writters since 400BC :old at least. I can recall Anabasis from Xenophon :book2: that is clear about them and i m sure nobody here can accuse him for anti-Turkish feelings....(except my Onur baby :baby2000: who can easily do that :eyes)

[Bugarash]

If you move some km from Ankara everything looks like Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Currently in Turkey there is a state within the state-which has the potential to become the master state.

[shshmuk]

Kurds are the ancient tribe of Kardouchs and are described as living in the very same lands they live today, from the ancient Greek writters since 400BC

You're confusing the Armenians with the Kurds apparently...
No kurd lived in the eastern part of today's Turkey in very ancient times, as those territories were Armenia. You'll even not find the name "Kurd" in very ancient sources. Kurds appeared in Armenia somewhere in the 10th century or so, and not in all Armenia. They were brought in masses later, by the Turks, from the south where is the original land of the Kurds who are most probably the descendants of ancient Medians.

[Hayalet]

It would be smart for Turkey to let the kurds have a indipendent Kurdistan because the number of kurds is growing from the current 20 million in Turkey alone-about 35% of the total population and dues entering a phase that threats the survival of the entire turkish state.
That's not true at all. Like I said in another thread:


And Kurds, while they are certainly numerous (about 12 million according to surveys), are some light years away from becoming a majority in Turkey, where ethnic Turks are nearly 60 million people.

Don't know the source for the article you posted, but it's a shame that baseless alarmism is so popular among some nationalist circles in Turkey.

[Bugarash]

Survays?
most survays and estimates show that the population of kurds in Turkey is between 15-20 million.

while turks are no more than 50 million-a number that includes as turks a entire bunch of other ethnicities-bosniaks,pomaks-muslim bulgarians,albanians,circassians,tatars...

So think about it,you can give the kurds their own state,or you can resume keeping them breed and having 20% of the territory of turkey looking as a military zone?

[Linet]

You're confusing the Armenians with the Kurds apparently...
No kurd lived in the eastern part of today's Turkey in very ancient times, as those territories were Armenia. You'll even not find the name "Kurd" in very ancient sources. Kurds appeared in Armenia somewhere in the 10th century or so, and not in all Armenia. They were brought in masses later, by the Turks, from the south where is the original land of the Kurds who are most probably the descendants of ancient Medians.

I am talking about the Karduchs....i think i was specific :icon_ask: and i also said one of the sources....:book2:
if you disagree on something i said :sad_shakefist:...then oppose me with facts and proofs :argue:... not because you think i may confused something.... because i havent :wink
...Except if Amernians are the descendants of the Karduchs... then i will have to apologise for the mistake :)

[Hayalet]

Survays?
most survays and estimates show that the population of kurds in Turkey is between 15-20 million.

while turks are no more than 50 million-a number that includes as turks a entire bunch of other ethnicities-bosniaks,pomaks-muslim bulgarians,albanians,circassians,tatars...
:no000000:

The results of a detailed survey from a few years ago:

The survey shows that people have no restraints in expressing their
ethnic identity. Of the total population of 73 million, 55 million 484
thousand are ethnically Turkish. There are 11 million 445 thousand
Kurds living in Turkey.
Those 55 million become 60 when you add up the ones who identify with things that are natural subgroups of "Turkish".

[shshmuk]

I am talking about the Karduchs....i think i was specific :icon_ask: and i also said one of the sources....:book2:
if you disagree on something i said :sad_shakefist:...then oppose me with facts and proofs :argue:... not because you think i may confused something.... because i havent :wink
...Except if Amernians are the descendants of the Karduchs... then i will have to apologise for the mistake :)

OK. But Karduchs were mentioned to live in Corduene, a small region in the south of historic Armenia and Van vilayet in today's Turkey. Is Corduene all eastern part of Turkey where today's most Kurda live in Turkey? Your post was misleading, as I'm sure, anyone who read it would think that you speak about a larger territory.

By the way, people of Corduene weren't only Karduchs-Kurds, but also the Armenians.

The three principalities of Corduene, Moxoene, and Zabdicene are referred to as Carduchian dynasties by Toumanoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corduene)
And then read about Moxoene.

It was an ancient Armenian province, which was bounded on the south by a part of Assyria called Aruastan (Arowastan) by the Armenians. [1] It was governed by Armenian princes. Their descendants still reigned there in the tenth century. [1] The principality of Moxoene, along with Corduene and Zabdicene, is considered to be a Carduchian dynasty[2].

Before the Armenian Genocide in 1915 the district contained sixty villages, forty of which were inhabited by Armenians
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxoene)

By the way, my mother's grandmother was from one of the villages of Moxoene. So, in some sense, yes, the Armenians of that region could also claim ancestry from Karduchs...

[Onur]

Survays?
most survays and estimates show that the population of kurds in Turkey is between 15-20 million.

So think about it,you can give the kurds their own state,or you can resume keeping them breed and having 20% of the territory of turkey looking as a military zone?
Kurds are around 12 million, 15 million at most today but it`s true that while Turkish population stabilized for a decade but kurds are breeding like rabbits. This is also part of their agenda as it says in the article but the situation is not that bad so far.

Also, can you give me the source of your english article in the first post? Where did you take this?


I am talking about the Karduchs....i think i was specific :icon_ask: and i also said one of the sources....:book2:
if you disagree on something i said :sad_shakefist:...then oppose me with facts and proofs
Before asking for sources from her you better give us sources to prove your first claim of today`s kurds are supposedly being the descendants of karduch from 500 BC.

[Linet]

My reply is about the Kurds....i dont try to show that Amrenians wasnt there, what i say is that Kurds were there too...maybe not in Armenian lands...but in lands that are today occupied by Turkey.... :)
...i try to find the map of Xenophon's route iin order to see the exact areas that were inhabited by the Cardouchs (Καρδούχοι)...
...i also wrote it in Greek...for some reason in gives more results like that and then you can find more english sources as well....

[Optimus]

I wouldn't be surprised if Kurds will demographically overtake over Turkey.The same thing is happening with immigrants in Western Europe.Like some say if you ask too much you will get nothing.The same song will be sung in Turkey,they should have given that part of land to Kurdistan.But Turks will never give up since the eastern part is highly important to them strategic wise.

[Linet]

Before asking for sources from her you better give us sources to prove your first claim of today`s kurds are supposedly being the descendants of karduch from 500 BC.

babyyyyyy....:puppy_dp:
...why are you talking to me like that :cry2:...be more cute to your love :eyes

baby :baby2000:...i already said....Kirou Anabasis, Xenophon is the writter :book2: ....even in wiki if you copy the greek word Καρδούχοι....the result will be the Kurds....ok my baby :hug2: ?

[shshmuk]

... what i say is that Kurds were there too...maybe not in Armenian lands...but in lands that are today occupied by Turkey.... :)


Dear Linet, I understand your intentions. But let's be honest, the "lands today occupied by Turkey", as you say, where Kurds now live WERE NOT inhabited by the Kurds in very ancient times. And talking only about one small region where the ancestors of Kurds lived (or even maybe not, as that's just an opinion that Karduchs are the ancestors of Kurds and Xenophon spoke about Karduchians and not Kurds) is not very serious.

[shshmuk]

....even in wiki if you copy the greek word Καρδούχοι....the result will be the Kurds....

You're really funny :) If you copy the word Mouse in the Google, the result will be... Micky Mouse :D

[Linet]

Yes...not very serious....because Kurds and K-a-rduchs dont even sounds alike.... :wink
Well, is not what i say...and as far as i know is not debatable by any historian the fact that Kuds=Karduchs....
well maybe you know more...but i ll follow the known line :)

[Linet]

You're really funny :) If you copy the word Mouse in the Google, the result will be... Micky Mouse :D

yes....but if you know some english or greek or any language...then you ll be able to see that the reason that you get that result is because they are considered to be the same tribe... :wink
....do you know how to read or need some help? :eyes

[Transhumanist]

By the way, my mother's grandmother was from one of the villages of Moxoene. So, in some sense, yes, the Armenians of that region could also claim ancestry from Karduchs...

Certainly sounds reasonable.

2012 “Between a Rock and a Hard Place: Musasir, Kumme, Ukku and Šubria – the Buffer States between Assyria and Urartu.” In S. Kroll et al. (ed.), Urartu-Bianili. Acta Iranica 51 (Leuven 2012) 243-264.

Dr. Karen Radner (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/history/about_us/academic_staff/dr_karen)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/assyria_ararat.jpg



None of the political and religious centres which we shall encounter in our survey has been excavated (with the possible exception of Ukku), but the conspicuous lack of written materials – monumental and archival may be more than just the result of archaeological fortunes: Subria, Kumme and Musasir can certainly be described as (linguistically and culturally) Hurrian states, and, as in Mittani before them, royal display of power may have taken other forms than the monumental inscriptions known from Assyrians, Urartians or Hittites. The bureaucrats, whom we expect to find in the shadow of a major temple such as the temples of the storm god of Kumme and of Haldi of Musasir, may have used other ways to keep their books than writing on clay tablets.

....

This first known depiction of the god would seem to strengthen the view that there is a conceptual link between Haldi and Mithra, a connection assumed by the traditional Armenian designation for the blind rock portal at Van, which the Urartians called ‘Door of Haldi’ 71, as Mheri dur ‘Door of Mher (Mithra), of which the more common name Meher Kapısı is but a translation into Turkish. This association may already have been established in the Achaemenid period when Urartian traditions played an important role in the shaping of royal ideology; Mithra appears from the reign of Artaxerxes II (404-359 BC) onwards in royal inscriptions 72 and perhaps before that in the Persepolis Fortification Tablets.73 Armen Petrosyan 74 has recently analysed the striking similarities between the two deities and argued, convincingly in my view, that they are part of the same stream of tradition.

To return to the special connection between Haldi, the city of Musasir and the Urartian royal dynasty,76 the crown prince of Urartu was appointed or at least confirmed as the future king under Haldi’s auspices in Musasir, and they and their top officials routinely visited the Haldi temple, apparently following a certain schedule. If we bear in mind that it was known to the Urartians as ‘The City’, we may be tempted to describe Musasir as the Holy City of the Urartians, and especially their kings. Is a comparison with Rome’s role for the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire too far-fetched? Musasir’s special role for Urartian kingship was obvious also to the Assyrians, and this is utilised in the narrative of the capture of the city by Sargon, as presented to Assur and the Assyrian public: after the lengthy enumeration of the spoils taken from temple and palace, the narrative suddenly jumps to the reaction of Rusa of Urartu who collapses in despair over the news, tearing his crown from his head in the process.77 Kathryn F. Kravitz has described this very appropriately as ‘Rusa’s symbolic de-coronation’, implying that ‘Rusa’s kingship was essentially disabled by Sargon’s Eighth Campaign’78 – in reality, Rusa was out of Assyrian reach when he learned of the sack of Musasir and the description given of his reaction in the Letter to Assur is rather more likely to reflect wishful thinking than the report of an eye witness in Assyrian service. But still, the fact that Musasir’s capture and the desecration of Haldi’s temple could be envisaged as a crippling blow not just against the kingdom and its inhabitants but also, and especially, against Assyria’s arch-enemy speaks clearly of its importance as Urartu’s ritual focal point. Yet we must bear in mind that this ‘holy city’, to use the words of Shalmaneser I, is already attested as a transregional centre of considerable cultural influence centuries before the dynasty founded by Ispuini in the late 9th century BC took control of Urartu.

....

In Middle Assyrian texts, Hurrian-speakers – whether they lived in Assyria or elsewhere – are designated as Subarû / Subrû145 and already this detail alerts us to the fact that first millennium Subria may also be termed a Hurrian state: the Subrian language required the assistance of interpreters to be understood by Assyrians146 (some Hurrian words, with translations, are preserved in a letter from Sargon’s correspondence).147 That the kingdom preserved the ancient heritage of the Hurrian tradition into the 8th and 7th century BC, when Assyrian sources offer us some insight, is clear from the fact that the members of the royal house bore Hurrian names, like Sargon’s ally Hu-Tessub, Esarhaddon’s contemporary Ik-Tessub and his son […]gi-Tessub. The Tigris Grotto, perhaps Subria’s most important sanctuary (see below), was a natural shrine, combining the attractions of a spring and a mountain cave, and this fits well with Hurrian concepts of the divine.148 Furthermore the scholars of Subria pursued Hurrian disciplines: they performed the ancient art of augury and the scapegoat rituals typical of the Hurrian tradition.149

....

Assyrian practice and the fact that the Tigris was considered a major deity in the Hurrian world lead us to conclude that the ‘Tigris source’ was as famous and important a sanctuary as the temples of Haldi at Musasir and of the storm god at Kumme. It may be significant, then, that Esarhaddon composed a Letter to Assur, detailing the invasion of Subria, just as Sargon had done after the capture of Musasir and the looting of Haldi’s temple, the only other well-known example of this text genre. Esarhaddon’s text is broken where we expect the account of the invasion of Subria, but the spoils taken from that country are later given to the gods of Assyria, and at least part of these riches must have originated from Subrian sanctuaries. Is it coincidence that both the sack of Musasir and the invasion of Subria are reported to Assyria’s divine overlord in a Letter to Assur, or is this the direct result of the underlying similarities between the cases – an existing alliance with Assyria, secured by a treaty, broken; a sanctuary sacred to and frequented by the Assyrians violated – that may have required the composition of such an account which one might then interpret as a defence statement forwarded to the divine court of law which decided the fate of all according to the Mesopotamian world view? How we see this matter influences how we judge the significance of Sargon’s and Esarhaddon’s actions in Musasir and Subria – and the importance of the ancient Hurrian cult centres in the wider world.

[shshmuk]

well maybe you know more...

No, I don't know more. I just know that hypocrisy is not a good thing...

[Linet]

Sure its not....as well as attacking to someone who hasnt attacked you is wrong... :)
...even worse when you attack your ally...is also stupid...:wink

[shshmuk]

yes....but if you know some english or greek or any language...then you ll be able to see that the reason that you get that result is because they are considered to be the same tribe... :wink
....do you know how to read or need some help? :eyes

Yes, I can read. To be "considered as something" doesn't mean to BE that thing for 100%.

If you ask the scientists, most of them will say that our ancestors were monkeys...

[shshmuk]

Sure its not....as well as attacking to someone who hasnt attacked you is wrong... :)
...even worse when you attack your ally...is also stupid...:wink


To correct your error doesn't mean to attack your person...

[Turkophagos]

http://s12.postimage.org/vhhor6wal/kurdistan_map3b.jpg


:nod

[Linet]

i was accepting to correct me but i dont accept the irony...i can tell the difference...and i love it since really consider it as high intellect expression...but i dont accept it when is directing to the wrong target....
...also...we are talking about the Kurds in Turkey....i dont see how does that affect an Armenian or Armenia in any kind of way. If you are Turk then ok but then again, i wouldnt consider you as friendly to care...

[Onur]

...also...we are talking about the Kurds in Turkey....i dont see how does that affect an Armenian or Armenia in any kind of way. If you are Turk then ok but then again, i wouldnt consider you as friendly to care...
It effects them too because Armenians lay claim for the same lands. Both Kurds and Armenians claims that they are direct descendants of some antique population from 5000 BC and this is their land. You should know this "direct descendants of antiquity" stories better than me Linet, because you are supposedly hellenes from antiquity too, right?

[Linet]

It effects them too because Armenians lay claim for the same lands. Both Kurds and Armenians claims that they are direct descendants of some antique population from 5000 BC and this is their land. You should know this "direct descendants of antiquity" stories better than me Linet, because you are supposedly hellenes from antiquity too, right?

Yes...but i was clear that i only know that in ancient times there were the Carduchs there and i said i dont know if Armenians are their descendants or not.... i also said i talk about the Kurds of Turkey.....

yes my baby :baby2000:, i know how it feels someone like my baby :hug2: to want with silly claims to prove that you arent child of your father :propeller: and i didnt intent anything like that against the Armenians....


Onur baby...but more cute to your love :eyes

[Turkophagos]

It effects them too because Armenians lay claim for the same lands. Both Kurds and Armenians claims that they are direct descendants of some antique population from 5000 BC and this is their land. You should know this "direct descendants of antiquity" stories better than me Linet, because you are supposedly hellenes from antiquity too, right?



History has to do nothing about who will be controlling Asia Minor. It's about who has the power to. You're gonna keep it as long as you have the means to but sooner or later Greeks, Armenians, Kurds and Arabs will co-operate and take back what really belongs to them.

[shshmuk]

we are talking about the Kurds in Turkey....i dont see how does that affect an Armenian or Armenia in any kind of way. If you are Turk then ok but then again, i wouldnt consider you as friendly to care...

How? Just how do you feel when the homeland of your grandparents is inhabited by your race's murderers who are claimed to be the owners of that land who, as you make think the uneducated about this subject, had always lived in those lands, even from the 5th c. BC. Because, as I said, your initial post could be understood just like that.

And why a Christian girl or a Greek would come to aid the Kurds? Only because today they are the enemies of the Turks? But do you know that most of Armenians (and perhaps Greeks too, I don't know about them) in historical territories of Armenia, that is, today's eastern Turkey, were murdered more by Kurds than Turks ans the Kurds stole all what my people had in the lands of historic Armenia and now live in the houses of my ancestors.

So you think this doesn't have anything with the Armenians?

Do you know what I feel when I see on the map of my ancestors the word Kurdistan written in bold? And those ancestors of mine weren't in some immemorable historical times. My paternal grandfather was born in Kars, my my mother's grandparents whom I have seen were refugees from the Bitlis and Van vilayets and they lost most of the members of their family in 1915.

So where the Turks to be blamed, so also the Kurds... No difference for me.

And how can you call me a Turk, only because I'm correcting your error concerning history...

[Bugarash]

:no000000:

The results of a detailed survey from a few years ago:

Those 55 million become 60 when you add up the ones who identify with things that are natural subgroups of "Turkish".

First of all,the real number of real turks in Turkey is unknown

pomaks-muslim bulgarians,circassians,bosniaks,albanians,gypsies, arabs declaring to be turks are counted in millions.

btw I think you only have a census based on mother tongue for the nonkurds and you count everyone that is born to one turkish parent as a turk?

[Linet]

Shsh...you confuse something... i really know almost nothing about Armenia and Kurds...i know only those things that have to do with the Greek history. Thats why i knew about the Carduchs, because it was written in our scripts. I didnt know that you have claims there and i only stated a historical fact that no matter what is true.
I dont really like Kurds but i like the Armenians due to historcal and religious reasons. My target was Turkey and not Armenia. In any case nobody denies the fact that Armenians are a native to its land nation and i know how it is the killers of my nation to live in our houses very very very very well. Also i know how it is the murderer to try to show himself as the victim and leaches and others to try to prove them right. I wouldnt wish and i wouldnt do that to anyone....not even if he was an enemy....

[morski]

Turks are going to burn in Hell. All they do is mock God

Which God, pagan girl?:D

[Albion]

I'm not sure whether Turks or Kurds are worse. Kurds are IE but Turks have much Anatolian and Greek blood whereas Kurds are just some Iranics.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of Kurds at Constantinople instead of Turks, it is kind of weird even thinking about anyone but Greeks, Turks or Armenians in present day Turkey.

We have a saying in England - better the enemy you know than the enemy you don't. I don't know how Kurds behave, I suspect they'll be worse than Turks so we'd better keep the Turks. Time for the Turks to start breeding then. :thumb001:

[Linet]

Kurds at Constantinoupolis :shocked: ?
I rather prefer the Turks.... :icon_confused:

[Hayalet]

First of all,the real number of real turks in Turkey is unknown

pomaks-muslim bulgarians,circassians,bosniaks,albanians,gypsies, arabs declaring to be turks are counted in millions.

btw I think you only have a census based on mother tongue for the nonkurds and you count everyone that is born to one turkish parent as a turk?
There is no official census in Turkey on ethnicity. But there has been one detailed, unguided survey where adults could identify themselves however they wished. Here are the results:


Turkish: 81.33%

Local Identity: 1.54%
- Manav; 0.59%
- Laz; 0.28%
- Turkmen; 0.24%
- Domestic regions; 0.22%
- Yörük; 0.18
- Anatolian Turkish tribes; 0.03%

Asian Turks: 0.08%
- Tatar; 0.04%
- Azeri; 0.03%
- Central Asian Turkic tribes; 0.01%

Of Caucasian descent: 0.27%
- Circassian; 0.19%
- Georgian; 0.08%
- Chechen; 0.004%

Of Balkan descent: 0.22%
- From Balkan countries; 0.12%
- Bosniak; 0.06%
- Turkish from Bulgaria; 0.04%

Immigrants: 0.40%
- "Muhacir"; 0.22%
- Balkan immigrants; 0.16%
- Regions in foreign countries; 0.02%

"Muslim Turkish": 1.02%
- Muslim; 0.58%
- Muslim Turkish; 0.44%

Alevi: 0.35%

General definitions: 0.36%
- From Turkey; 0.23%
- From the Earth; 0.12%
- Ottoman; 0.01%

Kurdish-Zaza: 9.02%
- Kurdish; 8.61%
- Zaza; 0.41%

Arab: 0.75%

Non-Muslims: 0.10%
- Armenian; 0.08%
- Greek; 0.01%
- Jewish; 0.004%
- Assyrian; 0.004%

Roma/Gypsies: 0.03%

From other countries: 0.05%
- European; 0.02%
- Asian; 0.01%
- Russian; 0.01%
- Iranian; 0.004%
- The Americas or Africa; 0.004%

Citizen of the Turkish Republic: 4.45%

Based on mother tongue, the percentage of Turkish-speakers is even more:


85 % OF TURKEY SAYS “TURKISH IS MY MOTHER TONGUE”

Turkish: 84.54%

Kurdish: 11.97%

Arabic: 1.38%

Zazaki: 1.01%

Other Turkic Languages: 0.28%

Balkan Languages: 0.23%

Laz: 0.12%

Other: 0.12%

Circassian: 0.11%

Armenian: 0.07%

Caucasian Languages: 0.07%

Greek: 0.06%

West European Languages: 0.03%

Romani Language: 0.01%

Jewish: 0.01%

[Bugarash]

LOL

just look at those stats

Of Balkan descent: 0,22%:D
Roma/Gypsies: 0,03%:D

[Hayalet]

Of Balkan descent: 0,22%:D
The vast majority of people who have ancestry from the Balkans in Turkey are ethnically Turkish and identify themselves as such.


Roma/Gypsies: 0,03%:D
Gypsies in Turkey, as in anywhere else, are a special minority, isolated from the mainstream population. They may not be perfectly represented in this study; but the basics are clear, no room for anyone to conjure up millions out of thin air.

[Bugarash]

The vast majority of people who have ancestry from the Balkans in Turkey are ethnically Turkish and identify themselves as such.

What about the millions of bosniaks,pomaks,albanians,tatars,circassians?

these are the rough numbers closest to reality:

turks-40 million
kurds-20 million
other 10 million

I mean if we go by the ethnic background logic,half of the ottoman sultans and veziers were greeks,albanians,bosniaks,bulgarians,serbia and georgians

what to say then about the population?

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Tatars are Turkic !! Not foreign for God's sake....

[morski]

Turkic≠Turkish.

[Gospodine]

Kurds are the ancient tribe of Kardouchs and are described as living in the very same lands they live today, from the ancient Greek writters since 400BC :old at least. I can recall Anabasis from Xenophon :book2: that is clear about them and i m sure nobody here can accuse him for anti-Turkish feelings....(except my Onur baby :baby2000: who can easily do that :eyes)

It's "Qardu" Linet.

Comes from Assyrian and is related to the Ancient Kingdom of Urartu.

Kurds have one of the most heterogeneous history in the Middle East, being a fusion of Medes, North-Western Semites, Armenians, Old Azaris, Anatolians and various Turkic groups.

It's funny because it puts them in the same category as Turks. Just they ended up speaking Indo-Iranian while the Turks ended up with Turkish.

The Kurds along with the Armenians (based on linguistic and genetic traces) are probably two of the most unreduced descendant groups of the Hurrians and Urartians:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Orientmitja2300aC.png

[Pecheneg]

Turkic≠Turkish.
Turkic is meta-ethnicity, while Turkish is ethnicity.
Turkish is part of Turkic, just like the Turkmen, Karachay, Kazakh, Uzbek, Qashqai etc.


Tatars are Turkic !! Not foreign for God's sake....
"Crimean Tatar" is one of the sub-ethnicities of Turkish, just like the Manav, Yörük, Kızılbaş, Avşar, Karapapak, Terekeme, Ahıskalı, Balkan Turk etc.
My maternal side is crimean Tatar from ankara/polatlı and they identify themselves 100% Turkish.

[StonyArabia]

"Crimean Tatar" is sub-ethnicity of Turkish, just like the Manav, Yörük, Kızılbaş, Avşar, Karapapak, Terekeme, Ahıskalı, Balkan Turk etc.
My maternal side is crimean Tatar from ankara/polatlı and they identify themselves 100% Turkish.

I don't think the Qizilbash are Turks, they are scum bags truth be told, and are part of the Persianate civilization. I heared most of them were of Persian and Kurdish origins who adopted Shia and Alevism then Turkified.

[Pecheneg]

I don't think the Qizilbash are Turks, they are scum bags truth be told, and are part of the Persianate civilization. I heared most of them were of Persian and Kurdish origins who adopted Shia and Alevism then Turkified.
Well "Kizilbash" infact is a faith,not an ethnicity. I'm talking about Turkish Kizilbashs (Alevis) of anatolia. There are also Kurdish, Zaza, Iranian Kizilbashs...

[morski]

"Crimean Tatar" is one of the sub-ethnicities of Turkish, just like the Manav, Yörük, Kızılbaş, Avşar, Karapapak, Terekeme, Ahıskalı, Balkan Turk etc.
My maternal side is crimean Tatar from ankara/polatlı and they identify themselves 100% Turkish.

No, it's not.

[Onur]

I don't think the Qizilbash are Turks, they are scum bags truth be told, and are part of the Persianate civilization. I heared most of them were of Persian and Kurdish origins who adopted Shia and Alevism then Turkified.
Kizilbash people are definitely Turks. They were identified as such due to their Alevi belief and their traditional red headgear, hence the term "kizil-bash".

They were perceived as hostile by the Ottoman state in 17th century because of their faith being closer to the Safavids and at least half of them has been escaped to Safavid lands, meaning today`s northern Iran and southern Azerbaijan. Ofc some of them has been Persianized throughout time.

So, they are definately not Persians. They are Turks who have been Persianized.


There are also Kurdish, Zaza, Iranian Kizilbashs...
Kizilbashs are Turkmen people and Alevism is a Turkish originated sect of islam. It`s some kind of mix of Tengrism, Sufism and Shiite beliefs.

The ones you say as "Kurdish or Iranian kizilbashs" are definately Kurdified or Iranianized Turkmens. Neither Iranians nor Kurds had any kizilbash alevi culture. It`s an authentic Turkmen culture.

[Lathander]

Turkic≠Turkish.

A lot of non-turkmen turkic people in Turkey are generally turkish nationalist and pan-turanist.They played an active role in battle against communism.

[Lathander]

According to CIA Factbook %70-75 of Turkish citizens are ethnic Turks,which equals around 55 million Turks.

[Lathander]

Well "Kizilbash" infact is a faith,not an ethnicity. I'm talking about Turkish Kizilbashs (Alevis) of anatolia. There are also Kurdish, Zaza, Iranian Kizilbashs...

As far as I know kizilbash was used for alevi turkmen nomads,not alevis of other ethnicities.

[Partizan]

1.Kurds aren't ancient,their history is fabricated by Russian and Westerner historians.Minorsky is one of examples.Now Izady does it with even more hilarious arguments than von Daniken has.

They claim Saladin was Kurdish but his brothers had Turkic names(Tuğtekin,Börü etc.).They don't even really know who is their ancestors,some say it's Medes,some say Karduchs,some say Korduene...Even there are Kurds claiming Viking ancestry :lol:

2.Kurds can breed like bacterias,however a Turkish resistance is getting power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8j2OGS7Nrk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDl7mJEZgzE

Kemalist or Conservative,rightist or leftist,we all Turks are one heart and one fist when some scum wants to divide our land.We're not gonna be second Yugoslavia or a new Iraq.Atatürk's body is dead but his soul is still alive,imperialists and their toys should know that.

[Demhat]

As far as I know kizilbash was used for alevi turkmen nomads,not alevis of other ethnicities.

hm surprisingly 99.9% of Turkmens are Sunni.

[Partizan]

hm surprisingly 99.9% of Turkmens are Sunni.

He doesn't mean Turkmens of Turkmenistan.He means Turkish Alevis of Turkey,who have Turkoman origins.

[Demhat]

1.Kurds aren't ancient,their history is fabricated by Russian and Westerner historians.



The tested Kurdish individuals have all shown very homogeneous ancestry mate, in fact one of the most homogeneous in the Region.
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2012/06/kurdish-autosomal-dna-based-eurogenes.html

While I have seen samples of some Turkish individuals which would have fit much better in the Balkans, among Kurds or Armenians. And some of these individuals are registered here too. Now ask for yourself which group is made up and which belongs to an old autochthonous substrata.

[Su]

And some of these individuals are registered here too. Now ask for yourself which group is made up and which belongs to an old autochthonous substrata.

Mention all their nick names and link to their dna results as source.

[Demhat]

He doesn't mean Turkmens of Turkmenistan.He means Turkish Alevis of Turkey,who have Turkoman origins.


Turkish Alevis are supposed to be of Turkmen origin, while Turkmens are all Sunni. Makes not much sense to me sorry.

[Pecheneg]

hm surprisingly 99.9% of Turkmens are Sunni.
We are talking about Turkmens of Iran, Anatolia & even Balkans (Seljuk-Ottoman era).
Alevi faith is quite ifluenced by Tengriism, no doubt.

Some examples of Kizilbash-Alevi Turkmens in History

Shahkulu (caused a Baba Tekeli rebellion) - (Antalya)
Jelal of Bozok (caused Jelali rebellion) - (Yozgat)
Pir Sultan Abdal - (Sivas)
Nadir Shah (Avshar Turk) - Iran
Sarı Saltuk - Balkans (dobruja)

[Demhat]

Mention all their nick names and link to their dna results as source.

Ask the Turkish users registered here those who are meant will tell you. Well thats at least what a friend told me and he also gave their names.

[Su]

Ask the Turkish users registered here those who are meant will tell you. Well thats at least what a friend told me and he also gave their names.

Nice try.

So you cant tell their nick names and giving their dna results ? I see:rolleyes::coffee:

[Azalea]

hm surprisingly 99.9% of Turkmens are Sunni.

Good thinking, smartass.

Not.

Turkmen origin does not mean actual ancestry from the modern Turkmens of Turkmenistan. Turkish people, together with other Oghuz people, are as much Turkmen as the people from Turkmenistan. Turkmen is nothing more than another name for Oghuz people.

[Demhat]

We are talking about Turkmens of Iran, Anatolia & even Balkans (Seljuk-Ottoman era).
Alevi faith is quite ifluenced by Tengriism, no doubt.

Some examples of Kizilbash-Alevi Turkmens in History

Shahkulu (caused a Baba Tekeli rebellion) - (Antalya)
Jelal of Bozok (caused Jelali rebellion) - (Yozgat)
Pir Sultan Abdal - (Sivas)
Nadir Shah (Avshar Turk) - Iran
Sarı Saltuk - Balkans (dobruja)


Turkmens in Iran are shii while Turkmens in Iraq,Turkey and their homeland Turkmenistan are Sunni. beside some Alevis with suggested (not proven) Turkmen origin. I have never seen real Turkmens who belong to Alevi faith. Yet it is pretty much possible that there are Turkmens which have adopted Alevism as religion.

That Alevism as Shamanic elements doesnt have to say much since shamanism is a shared Iranic-Turkic religious component. Kalasha in Pakistan are also Shamanic and Yezidis to also possess shamanic rituals.

I believe that Alevism is a religion which has developed out of Iranic-Turkic traditions mixed with Shii Islam.

[Partizan]

The tested Kurdish individuals have all shown very homogeneous ancestry mate, in fact one of the most homogeneous in the Region.
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2012/06/kurdish-autosomal-dna-based-eurogenes.html

While I have seen samples of some Turkish individuals which would have fit much better in the Balkans, among Kurds or Armenians. And some of these individuals are registered here too. Now ask for yourself which group is made up and which belongs to an old autochthonous substrata.

Well,I'm talking about history.I don't have too much knowledge on Kurdish genetics.

But many Turks in anthropological forums end with Central Asian admixture,like Ashina is %10 Asian.

Moderately,Asian in Turkish DNA is %8 but it's also %16 in Turkmens:
http://i45.tinypic.com/2ihtd7n.png

From dodecad,with "subtitles" of Pecheneg :p

BTW problem is,almost all Turkic people say the same thing about their origins,Xioung-nu is ancestor for all.

But Kurds?Some think they are Medes,some claim Korduene ancestry,some claim Sumerian etc.

You guys don't even have a common history idea.Basques or Sorbs don't have countries too but they have a common history sense.Or even mostly non-Semitic Askenazi Jews got stock with common Zionist sense but you guys lack it...Leave being nation,you are even not an ethnicity.

[Demhat]

Good thinking, smartass.

Not.

Turkmen origin does not mean actual ancestry from the modern Turkmens of Turkmenistan. Turkish people, together with other Oghuz people, are as much Turkmen as the people from Turkmenistan. Turkmen is nothing more than another name for Oghuz people.


Turkmens are a branch of Oghuz just like Anatolian Turks are but Turkmen is not another name for Oghuz people. Even I know that my smartie :D

[Azalea]

Turkmens are a branch of Oghuz just like Anatolian Turks are but Turkmen is not another name for Oghuz people. Even I know that my smartie :D

You clearly lack a lot of knowledge about Turkic people and history. The ethnonym Turkmen was always used for and by Oghuz people. Ever wondered why Turkish people outside of Turkey, in Syria and Iraq, are called Turkmens?

Lecture yourself or simply shut up when it comes to things you know nothing of. Here, start with Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_Turks

[Demhat]

Well,I'm talking about history.I don't have too much knowledge on Kurdish genetics.

But many Turks in anthropological forums end with Central Asian admixture,like Ashina is %10 Asian.

Moderately,Asian in Turkish DNA is %8 but it's also %16 in Turkmens:
http://i45.tinypic.com/2ihtd7n.png

From dodecad,with "subtitles" of Pecheneg :p

BTW problem is,almost all Turkic people say the same thing about their origins,Xioung-nu is ancestor for all.

But Kurds?Some think they are Medes,some claim Korduene ancestry,some claim Sumerian etc.

You guys don't even have a common history idea.Basques or Sorbs don't have countries too or even mostly non-Semitic Askenazi Jews got stock with common Zionist sense but you guys lack it...Leave being nation,you are even not an ethnicity.

Well If we are genetically so homogeneous we cant be historically hetrogenous. The thing is

Kurds claiming Karduchoi, Hurrian, Mede, Scythian etc. ancestory doesnt have to say that they are not of the same origin. Indeed Medes and Scythians where in many places counted as one people. in Western Asia Heredotus counted several Scythian tribes among Medes.

And did you know that karduchois where just another extension of Scythian/Mede + Hurrian tribes? They spoke an Iranic language yet believed in the Sun, and the Sky God Teshub.

So nothing wrong about that.

Kurds are simply a homogenized mix of autochthonous and Iranic groups. Just like Central Asian Turkics are with Iranic and East Asian elements.

[Demhat]

You clearly lack a lot of knowledge about Turkic people and history. The ethnonym Turkmen was always used for and by Oghuz people. Ever wondered why Turkish people outside of Turkey, in Syria and Iraq, are called Turkmens?

Lecture yourself or simply shut up when it comes to things you know nothing of. Here, start with Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_Turks

Good ok lets say Turks are also a branch of Turkmens. Yet the large majority of Turks are Sunni too. Only the Alevi Turks supposed to have Turkmen/Turkic origin are not. How about that?

Like I said Alevism cant be purely of Turkic origin since it has to be evolved somewhere in Iran because Alevism is absent in Central Asian Turkic tribes.

I would say its a mix of Iranic/Turkic elements with Shia Islam

[Demhat]

Nice try.

So you cant tell their nick names and giving their dna results ? I see:rolleyes::coffee:

Well If I believe my friend one of them has already joined the discussion, Ashina.

[Azalea]

Good ok lets say Turks are also a branch of Turkmens. Yet the large majority of Turks are Sunni too. Only the Alevi Turks supposed to have Turkmen/Turkic origin are not. How about that?

I have no idea what you are trying to say. The greatest Shia/Alevi Empires were ruled by Oghuz Turks (Sefavids, anyone?) and still a large part of the Oghuz Turks are Alevi/Oghuz (Azeri's). Also, I don't get what religion has much to do with Turkmen origin.


Like I said Alevism cant be purely of Turkic origin since it has to be evolved somewhere in Iran because Alevism is absent in Central Asian Turkic tribes.

I would say its a mix of Iranic/Turkic elements with Shia Islam

I never said that Alevism is purely Turkic. Yet, I do believe that it's main roots lies in Tengriism. Iranic influenec is clear. But it's more than that alone. Alevism has absorbed influences of many religions and traditions, including Christanity.

[Azalea]

Well If I believe my friend one of them has already joined the discussion, Ashina.

What's with my DNA?

[Partizan]

Well If we are genetically so homogeneous we cant be historically hetrogenous. The thing is

Kurds claiming Karduchoi, Mede, Scythian etc. ancestory doesnt have to say that they are not of the same origin. Indeed Medes and Scythians where in many places counted as one people. in Western Asia Heredotus counted several Scythian tribes among Medes.

And did you know that karduchois where just another extension of Scythian/Mede + Hurrian tribes? They spoke an Iranic language yet believed in the Sun, and the Sky God Teshub.

So nothing wrong about that.

Kurds are simply a homogenized mix of autochthonous and Iranic groups. Just like Central Asian Turkics are with Iranic and East Asian elements.

Heredotus is also called as "the greatest liar".He also wrote that Scythians looked and dressed way different than Iranic Persians.

BTW there are Kurds claiming Sumerian or even Viking ancestry too.And many Kurds hate Persians despite being proud "Aryans" :lol:

BTW read Prof.Dr.Mario Alinei,Caucasoid in Central Asian Turks isn't Iranic at all,original Turkic people migrated from West to East,that's why Etruscan-Magyar-Turkic runes are almost same:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/34Etruscans/EtruscanAndHungarianEn.htm

It's true Turkic people are a mix of Caucasoid and Mongoloid,it even differs from region to region but culture and language is very similar.Azerbaijani TURKS and Anatolian TURKS can understand each other well whereas Hakkari "Kirmanchs" and Diyarbakir "Zazas" can't understand each other,what an ethnicity...

[Demhat]

I have no idea what you are trying to say. The greatest Shia/Alevi Empires were ruled by Oghuz Turks (Sefavids, anyone?) and still a large part of the Oghuz Turks are Alevi/Oghuz (Azeri's). Also, I don't get what religion has much to do with Turkmen origin.

Well And this is most probably the birthplace of Alevism. Northwest Iran
The Safavid empire was mixed of Azeri and Kurdish origin at the beginning till the end.

Even the term Hizir was first used in this area.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_dynasty




I never said that Alevism is purely Turkic. Yet, I do believe that it's main roots lies in Tengriism. Iranic influenec is clear. But it's more than that alone. Alevism has absorbed influences of many religions and traditions, including Christanity.

You didnt but someone else did. Like I said Tengrism is a branch of Shamanism which is a ethno-religios traiditon among Turkic as well Iranic tribes like Kalasha and Yezidis.

Thats why I am saying Alevism =Iranic/Turkic + Shia Islam.

[Demhat]

Heredotus is also called as "the greatest liar".He also wrote that Scythians looked and dressed way different than Iranic Persians.

So whats wrong about that? Persians did cloth differently from Scythians. Persians adopted the clothes of Elamites. Heredotus also claimed about Amazon Fighter woman in the Steppes and it was confirmed by archeologists.



BTW there are Kurds claiming Sumerian or even Viking ancestry too.And many Kurds hate Persians despite being proud "Aryans" :lol:

As I said Kurds are a mix of autochthonous and Iranic tribes so do you think they did not absorb Sumerian genes? About the Viking part this is new to me. I only know about a Turkish PM claiming Kurds are Viking invaders. stop lying.




It's true Turkic people are a mix of Caucasoid and Mongoloid,it even differs from region to region but culture and language is very similar.Azerbaijani TURKS and Anatolian TURKS can understand each other well Not as much as you thing even though Anatolian Turks are simply an extension of Azeris with additional Armenian, Balkanic and Kurdish input.



whereas Hakkari "Kirmanchs" and Diyarbakir "Zazas" can't understand each other,what an ethnicity...


So can Anatolian Turks understand Turkmens from Turkmenistan and Uzbeks?

Come on you translate this to me. Beside some words I am not expecting much.

nj7MZaqoCfo

TFlEPB1xKTg


Now show me how much you understand each other :)

[Demhat]

What's with my DNA?

According to some people your results end up somewhere in Western Iran and similar to some Kurdish samples.

[Azalea]

According to some people your results end up somewhere in Western Iran and similar to some Kurdish samples.

I end up in Northwestern Iran because of my higher Mongoloid admix, lol. My results are not very similar to Kurdish samples. Whoever told you that was lying or simply interpreted my results wrongly.

My results can be viewed right here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40217).

Although, I do have some very distant Kurdish ancestry according to genealogical research. But going by my DNA results, it's insignificant.

[Loki]

I don't like Kurds :(

[Azalea]

I don't like Kurds :(

There are good and bad people in every group, Loki! Always remember that.

[Anatolian Eagle]

I'm amazed Demhat hasn't accused anyone else for racism yet. WOW SHIT.

[Demhat]

I end up in Northwestern Iran because of my higher Mongoloid admix, lol. My results are not very similar to Kurdish samples. Whoever told you that was lying or simply interpreted my results wrongly.

My results can be viewed right here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40217).

Although, I do have some very distant Kurdish ancestry according to genealogical research. But going by my DNA results, it's insignificant.

yet you land somewhere in Kurdish area and because of your higher mongolid input your more distant to Anatolian Turks so making it more heterogenous also there is another Turkish users with headscarf whoms results are most similar to Armenian or even Georgian results and she even has less mongolid influences than most Turks as far as I know.

[Azalea]

What's your point? :)

[Loki]

There are good and bad people in every group, Loki! Always remember that.

I know! :D I meant it half-serious, I'm no racist. :P

However I dislike the fact that Kurds with Turkish citizenship are so fakely loyal to Turkey (only when it suits them) and would probably wish for the disintegration of Turkey in favour of a Greater Kurdistan. I say this from experience, speaking with Kurdish people ...

Physically they appear different from your average non-Kurdish Anatolian Turk too. The latter is more aligned with Europeans - both genetically and historically. I view Kurds as Middle Easterners.

[Demhat]

I know! :D I meant it half-serious, I'm no racist. :P

However I dislike the fact that Kurds with Turkish citizenship are so fakely loyal to Turkey (only when it suits them) and would probably wish for the disintegration of Turkey in favour of a Greater Kurdistan. I say this from experience, speaking with Kurdish people ...

Physically they appear different from your average non-Kurdish Anatolian Turk too. The latter is more aligned with Europeans - both genetically and historically. I view Kurds as Middle Easterners.

Kurds are not entirely Anatolian so that you can expect them all to look like other Anatolians. And also there is no homogeneous Anatolian look since Anatolia was populated by many different populations. Many if not the majority of Kurds in Britain are from Iraq or Iran. Kurds cluster more into the core area of West Asia them being a cross between Anatolia, North Mesopotamia and West Iran.

While all Turks are ultimately from Anatolia.

Considering Kurds as West Asian would be the best fitting.

[Su]

Well If I believe my friend one of them has already joined the discussion, Ashina.

So what do you mean? She's an ethnic Turk.

[Su]

I know! :D I meant it half-serious, I'm no racist. :P

However I dislike the fact that Kurds with Turkish citizenship are so fakely loyal to Turkey (only when it suits them) and would probably wish for the disintegration of Turkey in favour of a Greater Kurdistan. I say this from experience, speaking with Kurdish people ...

Physically they appear different from your average non-Kurdish Anatolian Turk too. The latter is more aligned with Europeans - both genetically and historically. I view Kurds as Middle Easterners.

Thank you this is exactly how I feel and think about it.

[Anatolian Eagle]

Kurds are not entirely Anatolian so that you can expect them all to look like other Anatolians. And also there is no homogeneous Anatolian look since Anatolia was populated by many different populations. Many if not the majority of Kurds in Britain are from Iraq or Iran. Kurds cluster more into the core area of West Asia them being a cross between Anatolia, North Mesopotamia and West Iran.

While all Turks are ultimately from Anatolia.

Considering Kurds as West Asian would be the best fitting.

I can agree with the post above. It makes sense.

[Demhat]

I can agree with the post above. It makes sense.

Well this is the fastest way to explain it to outsiders who still compare both Groups to each other expecting them to look exactly like each other while there was never in history a universal Anatolian look at first and second Kurds are and never claimed to be entirely Anatolian. Also yet most Turks being Anatolian have also absorbed a good chunk of Balkan, Caucasian Levant and Iranian genes. The Kurds extend from Eastern Anatolia all the way into West Iran/North Mesopotamia and are by looks mostly a cross between Anatolian, Western Iranian and North Mesopotamian Elements.

Most Kurds from North Iraq I have seen looked like a cross between West Iranians, Levantines and Anatolians. While Kurds from Syria looked mostly Northern Syrian, which looks basically like a cross between Anatolian and Levant elements. Anatolian Kurds look mostly Anatolian with additional Northwest Iranian and Levant input. There you have the basic differences to Turks.

And it is also not surprising to hear from Users living in Germany that they cant distinguish between Kurds and Turks while from Users living in Britain that they can, because Kurds in Britain are mainly Iraqi, Iranian while Kurds in Germany for most are Anatolian Kurds.

I have some very good Photos I will share later to show the basic differences between Groups in Western Asia.

[Otsi lap]

From Dodecad:

DOD611 is Turkish but is more like Balkan people.
DOD435 is Turkish but is more like Balkan people.
DOD853 is Turkish but is more like Balkan people.
DOD675 is Turkish but is more like As(syrian) people.
DOD743 is Turkish but is more like Kurdish people.
DOD049 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.
DOD287 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.
DOD833 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.
DOD434 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.
DOD623 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.

We have clear evidence that genetically Alevi Kurds/Zazas are very similar to Sunni Kurds, Shiite Kurds and Yezidi Kurds (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2012/06/kurdish-autosomal-dna-based-on.html).

At FTDNA, there is an Alevi Turk that turned out to be very Zaza/Kurdish by genetic ancestry. Additionally, I would not be surprised if DOD743 also turned out to be a Turkish Alevi because of his strong genetic affinity towards Kurds.

The longest Euclidean distance measured between a Kurdish individual and the three Kurdish references [Kurd (Yunusbayev), Kurd (Harappa), Kurd (Xing)] is just 6.8.
This is a pretty narrow cluster for Kurds.

Just compare this narrow "Kurdish" distance of just 6.8 to the distance of Turks from Turkey and Cyprus. The Turks have a highly diverse genepool and thus, make a much larger cluster. The largest distance measured between a Turkish individual and the Turkish reference [Turks (Dodecad)] is 24.7.

# ID Distance
1 Turkish_D 0.0
2 Turks 3.6
3 DOD433 3.8
4 DOD838 4.1
5 DOD284 6.4
6 DOD109 6.4
7 DOD846 6.9
8 DOD259 7.4
9 DOD756 7.5
10 DOD477 7.9
11 DOD309 8.5
12 DOD856 8.8
13 DOD937 9.0
14 DOD434 9.7
15 DOD759 10.5
16 DOD722 10.5 (Cyprus)
17 DOD843 10.5
18 DOD729 10.7
19 DOD328 11.3 (Cyprus)
20 DOD784 11.4
21 DOD833 11.9
22 DOD938 12.8
23 DOD761 12.9
24 DOD675 13.1
25 DOD859 13.4
26 DOD624 13.7
27 DOD635 14.2 (Cyprus)
28 DOD721 14.4 (Cyrpus)
29 DOD898 14.8
30 DOD623 15.1
31 DOD837 15.7
32 DOD743 16.6
33 DOD435 18.4
34 DOD764 18.4
35 DOD287 22.3
36 DOD853 23.9
37 DOD611 24.7
38 DOD049 24.7

BTW, some Turks left the Dodecad Ancestry project because they disagreed with the findings of the project.

[Sophie]

Alevis are ultimately Azeris I believe.

[Su]

From Dodecad:

DOD611 is Turkish but is more like Balkan people.
DOD435 is Turkish but is more like Balkan people.
DOD853 is Turkish but is more like Balkan people.
DOD675 is Turkish but is more like As(syrian) people.
DOD743 is Turkish but is more like Kurdish people.
DOD049 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.
DOD287 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.
DOD833 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.
DOD434 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.
DOD623 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.

We have clear evidence that genetically Alevi Kurds/Zazas are very similar to Sunni Kurds, Shiite Kurds and Yezidi Kurds (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2012/06/kurdish-autosomal-dna-based-on.html).

At FTDNA, there is an Alevi Turk that turned out to be very Zaza/Kurdish by genetic ancestry. Additionally, I would not be surprised if DOD743 also turned out to be a Turkish Alevi because of his strong genetic affinity towards Kurds.

The longest Euclidean distance measured between a Kurdish individual and the three Kurdish references [Kurd (Yunusbayev), Kurd (Harappa), Kurd (Xing)] is just 6.8.
This is a pretty narrow cluster for Kurds.

Just compare this narrow "Kurdish" distance of just 6.8 to the distance of Turks from Turkey and Cyprus. The Turks have a highly diverse genepool and thus, make a much larger cluster. The largest distance measured between a Turkish individual and the Turkish reference [Turks (Dodecad)] is 24.7.

# ID Distance
1 Turkish_D 0.0
2 Turks 3.6
3 DOD433 3.8
4 DOD838 4.1
5 DOD284 6.4
6 DOD109 6.4
7 DOD846 6.9
8 DOD259 7.4
9 DOD756 7.5
10 DOD477 7.9
11 DOD309 8.5
12 DOD856 8.8
13 DOD937 9.0
14 DOD434 9.7
15 DOD759 10.5
16 DOD722 10.5 (Cyprus)
17 DOD843 10.5
18 DOD729 10.7
19 DOD328 11.3 (Cyprus)
20 DOD784 11.4
21 DOD833 11.9
22 DOD938 12.8
23 DOD761 12.9
24 DOD675 13.1
25 DOD859 13.4
26 DOD624 13.7
27 DOD635 14.2 (Cyprus)
28 DOD721 14.4 (Cyrpus)
29 DOD898 14.8
30 DOD623 15.1
31 DOD837 15.7
32 DOD743 16.6
33 DOD435 18.4
34 DOD764 18.4
35 DOD287 22.3
36 DOD853 23.9
37 DOD611 24.7
38 DOD049 24.7

BTW, some Turks left the Dodecad Ancestry project because they disagreed with the findings of the project.

How comes you ignored DOD846 ? How comes you could put DOD846 neither in Caucasus nor in Balkans nor in any other ethnicites ?

[Sophie]

It's true. Alevi Turks are actually of Azeri origins. Most of these Alevi tribes were forced to switch from their native Azerbaijani language to Anatolian Turkish during the late Ottoman period when Ottomans annexed eastern Anatolia from Safavid Persia.

Alevism itself is a branch of the Shia religion. It's rather distinct from the Sunnism practiced by Anatolian Turks.

[Pecheneg]

It's true. Alevi Turks are actually of Azeri origins. Most of these Alevi tribes were forced to switch from their native Azerbaijani language to Anatolian Turkish during the late Ottoman period when Ottomans annexed eastern Anatolia from Safavid Persia.

Alevism itself is a branch of the Shia religion. It's rather distinct from the Sunnism practiced by Anatolian Turks.

Well, there were alevi Turkoman tribes even in meditterenean (southern anatolian) region? how come?
Were they Azeris too?
Here, rebel leader of the Alevi Turkomans of Teke region
Shahkulu from antalya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Eahkulu_Rebellion

[Demhat]

From Dodecad:

DOD611 is Turkish but is more like Balkan people.
DOD435 is Turkish but is more like Balkan people.
DOD853 is Turkish but is more like Balkan people.
DOD675 is Turkish but is more like As(syrian) people.
DOD743 is Turkish but is more like Kurdish people.
DOD049 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.
DOD287 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.
DOD833 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.
DOD434 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.
DOD623 is Turkish but is more like Caucasus people.

We have clear evidence that genetically Alevi Kurds/Zazas are very similar to Sunni Kurds, Shiite Kurds and Yezidi Kurds (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2012/06/kurdish-autosomal-dna-based-on.html).

At FTDNA, there is an Alevi Turk that turned out to be very Zaza/Kurdish by genetic ancestry. Additionally, I would not be surprised if DOD743 also turned out to be a Turkish Alevi because of his strong genetic affinity towards Kurds.

The longest Euclidean distance measured between a Kurdish individual and the three Kurdish references [Kurd (Yunusbayev), Kurd (Harappa), Kurd (Xing)] is just 6.8.
This is a pretty narrow cluster for Kurds.

Just compare this narrow "Kurdish" distance of just 6.8 to the distance of Turks from Turkey and Cyprus. The Turks have a highly diverse genepool and thus, make a much larger cluster. The largest distance measured between a Turkish individual and the Turkish reference [Turks (Dodecad)] is 24.7.

# ID Distance
1 Turkish_D 0.0
2 Turks 3.6
3 DOD433 3.8
4 DOD838 4.1
5 DOD284 6.4
6 DOD109 6.4
7 DOD846 6.9
8 DOD259 7.4
9 DOD756 7.5
10 DOD477 7.9
11 DOD309 8.5
12 DOD856 8.8
13 DOD937 9.0
14 DOD434 9.7
15 DOD759 10.5
16 DOD722 10.5 (Cyprus)
17 DOD843 10.5
18 DOD729 10.7
19 DOD328 11.3 (Cyprus)
20 DOD784 11.4
21 DOD833 11.9
22 DOD938 12.8
23 DOD761 12.9
24 DOD675 13.1
25 DOD859 13.4
26 DOD624 13.7
27 DOD635 14.2 (Cyprus)
28 DOD721 14.4 (Cyrpus)
29 DOD898 14.8
30 DOD623 15.1
31 DOD837 15.7
32 DOD743 16.6
33 DOD435 18.4
34 DOD764 18.4
35 DOD287 22.3
36 DOD853 23.9
37 DOD611 24.7
38 DOD049 24.7

BTW, some Turks left the Dodecad Ancestry project because they disagreed with the findings of the project.


Bro I know that. I could now tell some truths I know but I am simply dont saying it just out of respect for Alevi Turks who believe they originated from Turkmens and because I have no desire for another long discussion with Turks.


Today they are Turks but I know that many Turkish Alevis in Yozgat trace their ancestors back to Dersim and Maras Alevis.

[Sophie]

Well, there were alevi Turkoman tribes even in meditterenean (southern anatolian) region? how come?
Were they Azeris too?
Here, rebel leader of the Alevi Turkomans of Teke region
Shahkulu from antalya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Eahkulu_Rebellion

Yes, but keep in mind that back then their language wasn't yet called "Azeri" . They called themselves Turkomens and they originated from modern day Azerbaijan. Many of these Azeri tribes migrated to Anatolia as far as the Aegean sea. This is evident in the family names of even Greeks (afshariditis, Karamanlides, etc.)
They were very loyal to the Safavids because of their shared religion, language, culture, and origins. I imagine though that maybe some of these tribes were later assimilated into the Sunni school of thought, and their language has been changed from their native Azerbaijani to the Anatolian Turkish.

[Pecheneg]

Bro I know that. I could now tell some truths I know but I am simply dont saying it just out of respect for Alevi Turks who believe they originated from Turkmens.


Today they are Turks but I know that many Turkish Alevis in Yozgat trace their ancestors back to Dersim and Maras Alevis.

Turkish Alevis usually trace their origins back to Khorasan.
And yes, alevi Turks originated from Turkmens, such as Avshars, they were most powerful Turk tribe in Azerbaijan&Iran and they were shia/alevi.

[StonyArabia]

Azeris are basically Turkified Kurds.

[Pecheneg]

Yes, but keep in mind that back then their language wasn't yet called "Azeri" . They called themselves Turkomens and they originated from modern day Azerbaijan. Many tribes migrated to Anatolia as far as the Aegean sea. This is evident in the family names of even Greeks (afshariditis, Karamanlides, etc.)
They were very loyal to the Safavids because of their shared religion, language, culture, and origins. I imagine though that maybe some of these tribes were later assimilated into the Sunni school of thought, and their language has been changed from their native Azerbaijani to the Anatolian Turkish.
LoL, even today, Azerbaijan language and Turkish is very much mutually intelligible and i don't think there was a significant difference between these 2 Oghuz dialects in that era.

[Su]

Azeris are basically Turkified Kurds.

I admit some Azeris look kurdish, but how comes some of them look non-kurdish rather more "Asian" or plain Turkish?

[Pecheneg]

Azeris are basically Turkified Kurds.
no they aren't.
anatolian Turks are caucaso/anatolians + Turkomans with some balkan influence, while Azeris are Pers/Iranians + Caucasians + Turkomans.
and note that both 2 populations have almost same amount of mongoloid admixture ( Turks = ~7% , Azeris = ~7%)

[Demhat]

Turkish Alevis usually trace their origins back to Khorasan.
And yes, alevi Turks originated from Turkmens, such as Avshars, they were most powerful Turk tribe in Azerbaijan&Iran and they were shia/alevi.

You do know that in Khorasan we have over an million Kurds and the Turkmens there are all Sunni but the Kurds are Shia/Alevis/Sunni mixed.

[StonyArabia]

I admit some Azeris look kurdish, but how comes some of them look non-kurdish rather more "Asian" or plain Turkish?

Azeris cluster with Kurds and Iranians. They don't evedn cluster with Anatolians or other Caucasians, despite they have relationship with them genetically. It's because they have Turkic admix, but the base of Azeri is basically NorthWestern Iranian like Kurds with some Turkic and Caucasian influences which are minor. The Safavids were Kurds who adopted Turkic tongue and so were the Qizilbash.

[Sophie]

LoL, even today, Azerbaijan language and Turkish is very much mutually intelligible and i don't think there was a significant difference between these 2 Oghuz dialects in that era.

I don't know just how much truth there is to that tbh. They are generally known to be two distinct languages and are classified as two separate languages by the Ethnologue. They however are both Oghuz languages and share a very similar history and origin.

[Demhat]

Azeris cluster with Kurds and Iranians. They don't evedn cluster with Anatolians or other Caucasians, despite they have relationship with them genetically. It's because they have Turkic admix, but the base of Azeri is basically NorthWestern Iranian like Kurds with some Turkic and Caucasian influences which are minor. The Safavids were Kurds who adopted Turkic tongue and so were the Qizilbash.

exactly in Safavid times there was a language replacement from Kurdish to Turkish. This is why I once wrote many Parts of Kurdish areas in Northwest Iran where replaced by "Azeris" who infact were turkified.

[Sophie]

Hahaha, I'm sorry but Azeris aren't Turkified Kurds.

Pecheneg was the closest. They are mainly a mixture of Old Azari Iranians + Caucasian Albanians + Oghuz Turks.

[Demhat]

Hahaha, I'm sorry but Azeris aren't Turkified Kurds.

Pecheneg was the closest. They are mainly a mixture of Old Azari Iranians + Caucasian Albanians + Oghuz Turks.

Azari iranians were formerly Kurds and than mixed with Oghuz Turks and become the Azeris we know today.

[Pecheneg]

Azeris cluster with Kurds and Iranians. They don't evedn cluster with Anatolians or other Caucasians, despite they have relationship with them genetically. It's because they have Turkic admix, but the base of Azeri is basically NorthWestern Iranian like Kurds with some Turkic and Caucasian influences which are minor. The Safavids were Kurds who adopted Turkic tongue and so were the Qizilbash.
lol according to genetics, even Turkmens of Turkmenistan cluster with eastern Iranians. As i said before, Azeris are basically Turko+Iranian+Caucasus mix.

btw, Safavids were not the only Turkic dynasty in Azerbaijan

Atabegs of Azerbaijan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atabegs_of_Azerbaijan

Ildeniz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ildeniz

Avsharids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsharid_dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avshar_Turkmen

Kajars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajar_dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajars

Jalayirids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalayirids

Chobanids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobanids

[Sophie]

Azari iranians were formerly Kurds and than mixed with Oghuz Turks and become the Azeris we know today.

Educate yourself :thumb001:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Azari_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_Turks

[Demhat]

Educate yourself :thumb001:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Azari_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_Turks



Wikipedia is the least source I would trust yet, it would be fine if you would read it yourself. the old Azari language was a Northwest Iranic language just like Talysh which itself is believed to be the most similar to Kurdish or even derived from it. While Persian, the language today spoken by most Iranians is Southwest Iranic.


Azari is believed to be a part of the dialect continuum of Northwest Iranian languages. As such, its ancestor would be close to the earliest attested Northwest Iranian languages, Median

[Sophie]

Wikipedia is the least source I would trust yet, it would be fine if you would read it yourself. the old Azari language was a Northwest Iranic language just like Talysh which itself is believed to be the most similar to Kurdish or even derived from it. While Persian, the language today spoken by most Iranians is Southwest Iranic.

related to Kurdish yes, but you cannot call it Kurdish just because it is related. That would be like saying Balochis are also Kurds just because they also speak a Northwestern Iranian language. Same with Mazanderanis, Gilakis, Taylshis, Zazas, etc. Are you going to try and claim all these people too? Just because they happen to speak Northwestern Iranian languages.?

The Kurdish identity/culture is a very distinct one among Iranic people's. And these people had all already formed their own identities long before the Kurdish one came into existence.

[StonyArabia]

lol according to genetics, even Turkmens of Turkmenistan cluster with eastern Iranians. As i said before, Azeris are basically Turko+Iranian+Caucasus mix.

btw, Safavids were not the only Turkic dynasty in Azerbaijan

Atabegs of Azerbaijan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atabegs_of_Azerbaijan

Ildeniz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ildeniz

Avsharids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsharid_dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avshar_Turkmen

Kajars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajar_dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajars

Jalayirids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalayirids

Chobanids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobanids

Yes the Safavids were of Kurdish origins though. Azeris have little true Caucasus blood they are not close to the Adyghe, Chechens ,or Balkars. Azeris are basically NorthWestern Iranians like Kurds are but with Turkic influence.

[Demhat]

related to Kurdish yes, but you cannot call it Kurdish just because it is related. That would be like saying Balochis are also Kurds just because they also speak a Northwestern Iranian language. Same with Mazanderanis, Gilakis, Taylshis, Zazas, etc. Are you going to try and claim all these people too? Just because they happen to speak Northwestern Iranian languages.?

The Kurdish identity/culture is a very distinct one among Iranic people's. And these people had all already formed their own identities long before the Kurdish one came into existence.

I think you should start to educate yourself before making false claims. No one claimed Gilakis Mazandaranis being Kurdish yet the areas where they lived were once settled by Kurds we have Persian sources about it. And also sources which show us that Safavids at the beginning were Kurdish and become azerified. And since when zaza have become a separate ethnicity? Since the invention of Wikipedia? The Zaza identity started out of the Kurdish, their language is considered closely related to the branch of Gorani Kurdish their traidtions etc are distinct from other Northwest Iranic groups and only similar to that of Kurdish.

[Onur]

I admit some Azeris look kurdish, but how comes some of them look non-kurdish rather more "Asian" or plain Turkish?
The reason is Azeri Turks have Iranian mixture if you consider that the Azeris ruled in Iran for centuries and Azerbaijan territories were united before Russia invaded the northern parts of it. Thats why some of them looks similar to Kurds but not because Azeris have kurdish mixture because there is no such a thing.


I don't know just how much truth there is to that tbh. They are generally known to be two distinct languages and are classified as two separate languages by the Ethnologue. They however are both Oghuz languages and share a very similar history and origin.
Yes, it`s a seperate language from Turkish of Turkey but i can say that we Turks of Turkey have higher mutual intelligibility with an Azerbaijani comparing to intelligibility of an Irish guy and an American speaking English.


Yes the Safavids were of Kurdish origins though. Azeris have little true Caucasus blood they are not close to the Adyghe, Chechens ,or Balkars. Azeris are basically NorthWestern Iranians like Kurds are but with Turkic influence.
Safavids were predominantly Azeris and alevi Turkmens. Your claim of Safavids being Kurds are laughable. You should take a look at historical kurdish population. Kurds might have 20 million population figure today but this is a result of their aggressive breeding policy in the last century. kurds in 16th century was a tiny group of people, a mere unimportance, unheard by many, let alone being powerful enough to form a state in Iran.

[Yalquzaq]

1: So-called "Old Azari" language theory is juat a theory, not a fact. Besides, making any connection to modern-day Azeri Turks are problematic because "Azeri" as an ethnic or nationality name is a new one. You can see in Russian Empire sources that Azeri Turks was called Tatar by ethnic name in Russian Empire. This term are still used in Georgia. In Iran it was Tork, but it was changed by Reza Shah as part of his broader assimilation policy, which included changing person names, place names and so on. The "Tork" term to designate Iranian Azeris are still most popular. Even when Khamenei gave speech before an Azeri crowd, he said "Turk and Fars are brothers" he didn't say "Azeri and Fars are brothers".

2: Azerbaijani Turks are made-up of several Turkoman tribes, I.E there is no "Azeri" ethnicity but different (but same origin) Oghuz tribes which makes-up the ethnicity we call Azerbaijani Turks. This includes Afshar tribe, Ayrim, Shahseven, Padar, Bayat, Qarapapakh, Qaradaghli, Baharlu and so on. Shahseven tribe are still nomadic.

3: That Sheikh Safi (the founder of Safaviyya order) was a Kurd who moved from "Kurdistan" to Azerbaijan is a theory only, while in historical sources we see him being mentioned as "Ey Tork-E Pir". However, even if we accept this theory, later Safavi Sheihks was already Turkoman by blood and native Azerbaijani speakers. Shaykh Junayd, grandfather of Shah Ismail from his father side (his grandfather from his mother side was Uzun Hasan), married into Uzun Hasan's sister, the ruler of Ak-Qoyunlu. His son (and already relative of Uzun Hasan) married Uzun Hasan's daughter, also mother of Shah Ismail. Thus, Shah Ismail was full Turkoman by blood.

And your attempt to say that north-west Iran was Kurdish before arrival of Oghuz Turks by using Sheikh Safi theory are also absurd, as according to these theories he was not a native of Ardabil. :p

4: Safavis was not only about its Sheikhs, all of followers of Safaviyya order and Safavi Sheikhs was various Turkoman tribes of Anatolia and Azerbaijan, whom became known by the name Qizilbash. The reason why Safavid Empire came to existence was these various Turkoman Qizilbash tribes, whom also formed the backbone of Safavid military force.

5: Safavid court, military language was Azerbaijan Turkish. Shah Ismail was himself a poet in Azeri Turkish, he wrote his poems in Azeri Turkish under pen-name of Khatai, for that reason hes known as Shah Ismail Khatai among Azeri Turks. His poems are also very popular among Anatolian Alavi Turks.

[Yalquzaq]

"CircassianWine", I'm really amazed by your several posts regarding connection between Azeri Turks and so-called northwestern Iranians and Kurds. :)

I somehow have doubt if you even have a slighest clue of Azerbaijani culture, traditions and so on. And with regards to the origins, I think you don't even know the fact that Azeri ethnicity as you know it are formed-up by several tribe/clans, sub-branches, all of which are Oghuz. Even the Great Soviet Encylopedia mentions: Ayrim, Qarapapakh, Padar, Qaradaghli, Shahsevens are groups which forms Azerbaijani ethnicity.

And I also would advice you to look at these photos.

http://i50.tinypic.com/1e2mip.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2uy3oea.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/33ws8wh.jpg

http://azab.az/9.jpg

http://globalvoicesonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/novruz35.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/kajtrl.jpg

[Yalquzaq]

But seriously, you even claimed that Qizilbash were Kurds. :picard2:

While it is well known that all of Qizilbash came from various Turkoman tribes, and non-Turks in Safavids was known as "Tadjik", which was a term used for Persians.

Some of Qizilbash tribes or "Oymaqs" (Azerbaijani word for tribe): Ustajlu, Shamlu, Qajar, Afshar, Rumlu, Zulqadir, Tekelu, Varsaq, Turgudlu, Shahseven, Qaradaghli, Qaramanlu, Bayat, Ansarlu, Baharlu and so on.

[Pecheneg]

1: So-called "Old Azari" language theory is juat a theory, not a fact. Besides, making any connection to modern-day Azeri Turks are problematic because "Azeri" as an ethnic or nationality name is a new one. You can see in Russian Empire sources that Azeri Turks was called Tatar by ethnic name in Russian Empire. This term are still used in Georgia. In Iran it was Tork, but it was changed by Reza Shah as part of his broader assimilation policy, which included changing person names, place names and so on. The "Tork" term to designate Iranian Azeris are still most popular. Even when Khamenei gave speech before an Azeri crowd, he said "Turk and Fars are brothers" he didn't say "Azeri and Fars are brothers".

2: Azerbaijani Turks are made-up of several Turkoman tribes, I.E there is no "Azeri" ethnicity but different (but same origin) Oghuz tribes which makes-up the ethnicity we call Azerbaijani Turks. This includes Afshar tribe, Ayrim, Shahseven, Padar, Bayat, Qarapapakh, Qaradaghli, Baharlu and so on. Shahseven tribe are still nomadic.

3: That Sheikh Safi (the founder of Safaviyya order) was a Kurd who moved from "Kurdistan" to Azerbaijan is a theory only, while in historical sources we see him being mentioned as "Ey Tork-E Pir". However, even if we accept this theory, later Safavi Sheihks was already Turkoman by blood and native Azerbaijani speakers. Shaykh Junayd, grandfather of Shah Ismail from his father side (his grandfather from his mother side was Uzun Hasan), married into Uzun Hasan's sister, the ruler of Ak-Qoyunlu. His son (and already relative of Uzun Hasan) married Uzun Hasan's daughter, also mother of Shah Ismail. Thus, Shah Ismail was full Turkoman by blood.

And your attempt to say that north-west Iran was Kurdish before arrival of Oghuz Turks by using Sheikh Safi theory are also absurd, as according to these theories he was not a native of Ardabil. :p

4: Safavis was not only about its Sheikhs, all of followers of Safaviyya order and Safavi Sheikhs was various Turkoman tribes of Anatolia and Azerbaijan, whom became known by the name Qizilbash. The reason why Safavid Empire came to existence was these various Turkoman Qizilbash tribes, whom also formed the backbone of Safavid military force.

5: Safavid court, military language was Azerbaijan Turkish. Shah Ismail was himself a poet in Azeri Turkish, he wrote his poems in Azeri Turkish under pen-name of Khatai, for that reason hes known as Shah Ismail Khatai among Azeri Turks. His poems are also very popular among Anatolian Alavi Turks.
:thumb001:

[Sophie]

1: So-called "Old Azari" language theory is juat a theory, not a fact. Besides, making any connection to modern-day Azeri Turks are problematic because "Azeri" as an ethnic or nationality name is a new one. You can see in Russian Empire sources that Azeri Turks was called Tatar by ethnic name in Russian Empire. This term are still used in Georgia. In Iran it was Tork, but it was changed by Reza Shah as part of his broader assimilation policy, which included changing person names, place names and so on. The "Tork" term to designate Iranian Azeris are still most popular. Even when Khamenei gave speech before an Azeri crowd, he said "Turk and Fars are brothers" he didn't say "Azeri and Fars are brothers".

2: Azerbaijani Turks are made-up of several Turkoman tribes, I.E there is no "Azeri" ethnicity but different (but same origin) Oghuz tribes which makes-up the ethnicity we call Azerbaijani Turks. This includes Afshar tribe, Ayrim, Shahseven, Padar, Bayat, Qarapapakh, Qaradaghli, Baharlu and so on. Shahseven tribe are still nomadic.

3: That Sheikh Safi (the founder of Safaviyya order) was a Kurd who moved from "Kurdistan" to Azerbaijan is a theory only, while in historical sources we see him being mentioned as "Ey Tork-E Pir". However, even if we accept this theory, later Safavi Sheihks was already Turkoman by blood and native Azerbaijani speakers. Shaykh Junayd, grandfather of Shah Ismail from his father side (his grandfather from his mother side was Uzun Hasan), married into Uzun Hasan's sister, the ruler of Ak-Qoyunlu. His son (and already relative of Uzun Hasan) married Uzun Hasan's daughter, also mother of Shah Ismail. Thus, Shah Ismail was full Turkoman by blood.

And your attempt to say that north-west Iran was Kurdish before arrival of Oghuz Turks by using Sheikh Safi theory are also absurd, as according to these theories he was not a native of Ardabil. :p

4: Safavis was not only about its Sheikhs, all of followers of Safaviyya order and Safavi Sheikhs was various Turkoman tribes of Anatolia and Azerbaijan, whom became known by the name Qizilbash. The reason why Safavid Empire came to existence was these various Turkoman Qizilbash tribes, whom also formed the backbone of Safavid military force.

5: Safavid court, military language was Azerbaijan Turkish. Shah Ismail was himself a poet in Azeri Turkish, he wrote his poems in Azeri Turkish under pen-name of Khatai, for that reason hes known as Shah Ismail Khatai among Azeri Turks. His poems are also very popular among Anatolian Alavi Turks.


Old Azeri is extinct today, but isn't just a "theory". The indiginous people of Azerbaijan before becoming Turkic speakers, spoke Old Azari.


Azari, also known as Old Azeri (Persian: آذری‎ Āḏarī, [ɑːzæri], also spelled Adari, Adhari), was the Iranian language once spoken in Iranian Azerbaijan. Some linguists believe the southern Tati dialects of Azerbaijan, like those spoken by the Tats[1] around Khalkhal, Harzand and Keringan to be remnants of Azari.[2][3][4] In addition, Old Azari is known to have strong affinities with Talysh.[5]

Azari was the dominant language in Azerbaijan before it was replaced by a Turkic language, also known as the Azeri (or Azerbaijani) language.[4]

Azari is believed to be a part of the dialect continuum of Northwest Iranian languages. As such, its ancestor would be close to the earliest attested Northwest Iranian languages, Median. As the Northwestern and Southwestern Iranian languages had not yet developed very far apart by the first millennium AD, Azari would also still have been very similar to classical Middle Persian.

Azari was spoken in most of Azarbaijan at least up to the 17th century, with the number of speakers decreasing since the 11th century due to the Turkification of the area. According to some accounts, it may have survived for several centuries after that up to the 16th or 17th century. Today, Iranian dialects are still spoken in several linguistic enclaves within Azarbaijan. While some scholars believe that these dialects form a direct continuation of the ancient Azari languages,[4] others have argued that they are likely to be a later import through migration from other parts of Iran, and that the original Azari dialects became extinct.[6]

The name "Azari" is derived from the old Iranian name for the region of Azarbaijan[citation needed]. The same name for the region, in a Turkified form, was later adopted also to designate the modern Turkic language "Azeri".

According to Vladimir Minorsky, around the 9th-10th century:[7]:
“ "The original sedentary population of Azarbayjan consisted of a mass of peasants and at the time of the Arab conquest was compromised under the semi-contemptuous term of Uluj("non-Arab")-somewhat similar to the raya(*ri’aya) of the Ottoman empire. The only arms of this peaceful rustic population were slings, see Tabari, II, 1379-89. They spoke a number of dialects (Adhari, Talishi) of which even now there remains some islets surviving amidst the Turkish speaking population. It was this basic population on which Babak leaned in his revolt against the caliphate. ”

Clifford Edmund Bosworth says[8]:
“ " We need not take seriously Moqaddasī’s assertion that Azerbaijan had seventy languages, a state of affairs more correctly applicable to the Caucasus region to the north; but the basically Iranian population spoke an aberrant, dialectical form of Persian (called by Masʿūdī al-āḏarīya) as well as standard Persian, and the geographers state that the former was difficult to understand ”

Professor Igrar Aliyev states that[9]:
“

1. In the writing of medieval Arab historians (Ibn Hawqal, Muqqaddesi..), the people of Azarbaijan spoke Azari. 2. This Azari was without doubt an Iranian language because it is also contrasted with Dari but it is also mentioned as Persian. It was not the same as the languages of the Caucasus mentioned by Arab historians. 3. Azari is not exactly Dari (name used for the Khorasanian Persian which is the Modern Persian language). From the research conducted by researchers upon this language, it appears that this language is part of the NW Iranian languages and was close to Talyshi language. Talyshi language has kept some of the characteristics of the Median language.
”

Aliyev also mentions that the medieval Muslim historians like Baladhuri, Masudi, Ibn Hawqal and Yaqut have mentioned this language by name.[9] Medieval historians and scholars also record that the language of the region of Azarbaijan, as well as its people there, as Iranians who spoke Iranian languages. Among these writes are Istakhri, Masudi, Ibn al-Nadim, Hamza Isfahani, Ibn Hawqal, Baladhuri, Muqaddasi, Yaghubi, Hamdollah Mostowfi, and Khwarazmi.[4]

According to Gilbert Lazard[10]:
“ Azarbaijan was the domain of Adhari, an important Iranian dialect which Masudi mentions together with Dari and Pahlavi. ”

According to Professor. Richard Frye: Azari was a major Iranian language and the original language of Azerbaijan region and Azari gradually lost its stature as the prevalent language by the end of the 14th century.[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Azeri_language

[Yalquzaq]

Yes it is, a language close to Persian might have been spoken, but it was not called "Azari". And like said, it dosen't have much relevance anyway as modern-day Turks of Azerbaijan never used such denonym. So all I got to say is "whatever".

Another thing is, we do know that on territority of northern Azerbaijan (north of Araxes) existed a native Caucasian kingdom, known by the name of Caucasian Albania, thus, it is absurd to make any connections between whatever native population of Azerbaijan before Oghuz mass-migrations. If we go by such logic, one should claim that Azeri Turks to north and south of Araxes are different peoples, which really sounds absurd, no? And more so by the fact that were not always separated, only since 1800s. Populations always changed on every corner of world, and in our case there was a mass-migration of tribes over course of centuries.

[Sophie]

Yes it is, a language close to Persian might have been spoken, but it was not called "Azari". And like said, it dosen't have much relevance anyway as modern-day Azerbaijani Turks of Azerbaijan never used such denonym. So all I got to say is "whatever".

Another thing is, we do know that on territority of northern Azerbaijan (north of Araxes) existed a native Caucasian kingdom, thus, it is absurd to make any connections between whatever native population of Azerbaijan and current Turkic one. If we go by such logic, one should claim that Azeri Turks to north and south of Araxes are different peoples, which really sounds absurd, no? And mroe so by the fact that were not always separated, only since 1800s. Populations always changed on every corner of world, there was a mass-migration, which actually took place in centuries.


The Caucasian Albanians in the north and the Old Azari Iranians in the south had close relations with eachother. You can't just forget the history of a people just because their language has changed. In fact, most of the Azeri traditions/customs/culture has its roots in pre-Turkic times.

And what you say is funny because "Azerbaijan" itself is of Iranian origin. "Atar" = fire "Paygan" = place of worship. It literally means "Place of Fire Worship" because that region was the centre of Zoroastrianism in ancient times.



Baku Atashgah/Zoroastrian Fire Temple:


http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/5-Atashgah-Baku.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3268/3130381382_6a47d779c3_z.jpg?zz=1

[Yalquzaq]

There was mass-migrations of Oghuz tribes, not a language change.

Then you must not be much aware with traditions/customs/culture of Azerbaijan. We have Dede Qorqud legends for instance, not Avesta. :)

Geographical name is just a geographical name. Modern-day Macedonian Slavs are not ancient Greek Macedonians just because they share the same name.

[Sophie]

There was mass-migrations of Oghuz tribes, not a language change. That is certainly not true, we have legends of Dede Qorqud, not Avesta. :)

Geographical name is just a geographical name. Modern-day Macedonian Slavs are not ancient Greek Macedonians just because they share the same name.

Of course there was a mass migration, but these Oghuz Turks married with the natives.

I will use the same analogy as yours... Russians and Macedonians are both Slavic right? But there's obviously still a big difference between them because Macedonians are the result of Slavs marrying the native Greeks. It's the same with the Oghuz Turks and Old Azari Iranians...

[Yalquzaq]

First of all, we cannot talk about a massive native population anyway. But we actually do know about massive migrations from historical sources. 1: Seljuq period, 2: Ilkhanate period, 3: Qara-Qoyunlu and Ak-Qoyunlu period, 4: Safavid period (migration of Turkoman tribes from Anatolia and Syria who had joined Qizilbash movement).

Azerbaijan was specially the favourite destination of Turkic tribes because of its geographical conditions. Its pretty non-mountainous unlike adjacent regions, and have always had vast amount of grasslands. Even in hilly areas. There is a fairly large Steppe called Mughan Steppe aswell, home to nomadic Shahseven tribe.

They are different groups of Slavs. They are pretty close (or same) to their own group, like Bulgarians and Serbians. I'm not saying that we are similiar to Kazakh or Kyrgyz, but our own Oghuz kins, which we are.

[Sophie]

First of all, we cannot talk about a massive native population anyway. But we actually do know about massive migrations from historical sources. 1: Seljuq period, 2: Ilkhanate period, 3: Qara-Qoyunlu and Ak-Qoyunlu period, 4: Safavid period (migration of Turkoman tribes from Anatolia and Syria who had joined Qizilbash movement).

Azerbaijan was specially the favourite destination of Turkic tribes because of its geographical conditions. Its pretty non-mountainous unlike adjacent regions, and have always had vast grasslands. It has a vast steppe called Mughan Steppe aswell.

They are different groups of Slavs, there are almost certain differences between different groups. Turkmens of Central Asia are actually not that different from Western Oghuz, their language are as close as 78% to Azeri (and 72% to Turkish), they are similiar in many other things. We don't talk about Kazakhs or Kyrgyz here, but our Oghuz kins to east of Caspian Sea, who are fairly similiar.

The languages are similar of course. They are all Oghuz Turkic languages:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Map-Oguz_Language_World.png


What I'm talking about is history, culture, and genetics though. Historically, the native people of Azerbaijan were related to other Caspian Iranians (Talyshis, Gilakis, Mazandaranis, etc). While the people of Caucasian Albania were closely related to modern Udins.

Culturally, it is also the same. Azeris have many Iranic and Caucasian elements in their culture, from their music to their dances to their traditional clothings etc.

Lastly, genetically it's also the case. Azeris cluster much closer to other Iranians and Caucasians then they do with the Turkmens or Salars which shows that the majority of their genetic makeup comes from the natives, not the Oghuz Turks.

[Yalquzaq]

But such view of history are problematic, populations, like said, always changed. Once Scythians ruled vast steppes of Russia, later they was replaced by Kypchaks-Cumans, and now these territorities are Russia, populated by Russians.

Uzbeks, which you probably would view as more "Turkic" has much more Persian influence, from language to their culture. Cultures are always influenced by each other, it dosen't tells us about ancestry.

I respect your views, but they are too simplistic.

[Sophie]

But such view of history are problematic, populations, like said, always changed. Once Scythians ruled vast steppes of Russia, later they was replaced by Kypchaks-Cumans, and now these territorities are Russia, populated by Russians.

Uzbeks, which you probably would view as a more "Turkic" nation has much more Persian influence, from language to their culture. Cultures are always influenced by each other, it dosen't tells us about ancestry.

I respect your views, but they are too simplistic.

But that's how we find out about our ancestry... by investigating such things. Uzbeks don't have Persian ancestry, they have ancestry from the ancient Soghdians, Bactrians, and Chorasmians who were East Iranian people.

[Yalquzaq]

I didn't say Uzbeks had Persian ancestry, but their culture are evidently influenced from foreign cultures, including Persian. What I'm saying is that cultures are always influenced by each other.

In any case, no one can claim to be pure or something, but idenity are not formed this way, which we can agree.

Overall, I think we agree with each other, no nation is pure. :)

[Sophie]

I didn't say Uzbeks had Persian ancestry, but their culture are evidently influenced from foreign cultures, including Persian. What I'm saying is that cultures are always influenced by each other.

In any case, no one can claim to be pure or something, but idenity are not formed this way, which we can agree.

Overall, I think we agree with each other, no nation is pure. :)

I agree with that. :thumb001:

[ChildOfTheJin]

You're confusing the Armenians with the Kurds apparently...
No kurd lived in the eastern part of today's Turkey in very ancient times, as those territories were Armenia. You'll even not find the name "Kurd" in very ancient sources. Kurds appeared in Armenia somewhere in the 10th century or so, and not in all Armenia. They were brought in masses later, by the Turks, from the south where is the original land of the Kurds who are most probably the descendants of ancient Medians.

You're wrong. The Kurds lived South of Van and Armenians lived North of Van. The Kurds and Armenians lived side by side. This is probably because of the Hurrians. Both majority of Kurds and Armenians have Hurrian ancestry.

[Yalquzaq]

Everything with regards to ethnic origin of Safaviyya are explained here.

"In his work "The Role of the Anatolian Turkmens in the Foundation of the Safevid State", Prof. Faruk Sumer, citing Ahmet Kesrevi's "Shayk Savi ve Tebareş" and Z.V. Togan's article published in 1957 in French, shows Şah Ismail's lineage to descend from a Kurd from Sincar named Firuz Shah. The Azerbaijani historian Prof. Oktay Efendiyev, in his own work "The Safevid State", says that Togan's views in the aformentioned article are based on a 1592 copy of the work "Saffatu-s Safa", which was plagiarized with certain additions; but that in the original copy, which was recopied by the Safevid Dervish Tevekkul ibn- Bezzaz, there are no such claims. In the same work, Professor Efendiyev writes that Shayk Safiyeddin, at the root of the dynasty, was Turkish. Azerbaijan Academy of Science member Dr. Mirza Abbasli, examining manuscripts in the "Saffatu-s Safa", quotes the following narrative: "One day Shayk Safi had sat down. he saw the wall of the mihrab split. A man emergedand said to the Shayk: 'Ey Ulu Turk...' (O, Turkish Saint)". His grace and perfection became so clear that he was always remembered as "The Turkish Saint".

In his article "On the Origins of the Safevids", Dr. Mirza Abbasli writes that in one of the important Safavid sources, "Cihan-Aray-i Shah Ismail Safevi", Shayk Safi, at his first meeting with his guide and teacher Shayk Zahid Gilani, was identified as a Turkish youth (Cevan-i Tork) who had come from Ardabil to Gilan.

One the subject of the dynasty being "Seyyid", that is, descended from the Prophet (pbuh), most researchers suggest that this was invented for the purpose of linking the Safevi dynasty with holiness. Along this line, Dr. Mirza Abbasli, in the abovementioned article, writes that in the work "Tarih-i Guzide" by Shayk Safi's contemporay Hamdullah Mustofi, the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), his sons (as) and his companions (ra) are extensively mentioned, but although Shayk Safi is spoken of as a grand Shayk , no mention is made either of any family ties or close relationship with the Prophet (pbuh) .

Fuat Koprulu also says that in sources from Shayk Safi's time, no claim appears that he descends from a line of Seyyids. Professor Frank Sumer writes that claims of the Safevis' seyyid status appear in the second half of the fifteenth century. In his Doctoral Thesis, "Iranian Culture and Civilization in the Safevi Period", published in 1971, Ishafan University Professor Huseyin Mircaferi writes: "In the work 'Saffatu-s Safa', recently reedited by Mir Huseyin to the Shiite point of view during the reign of Shah Tahmasb I, the view that the Safevis descend from the line of Imam Musa Kazim (as) is very common. But research on various original copies of Ahmet Kesrevi's "Saffatu-s safa" shows that the safevi lineage is not Seyyid, and that even in the trust of Qaraqoyunlu Cihanshah, there is no indication of Shayk Safi sharing their Seyyid status.

Different views have been suggested concerning the origins of the Safiviyye order, to which the dynasty belonged. Again, in the old writings of the "Saffatu-s Safa", it is recorded that disciples of the order include the Ahis, Mevlevis and Kubrevis. Louis Massignon, in his Encyclopedia of Islam article titled "Tarikat", characterizes the order as the Kizilbash and Turkish branch of the Suhreverdi order, and the late A. Golpinarli says that it is a branch of the Halvetiye order. Professor Ismail Hakki Uzuncarsili writes in his work "Osmanli Tarihi" that the founder of the order was connected to Shayk Zahid Geylani and married his daughter Bibi Fatima; and when Shayk Zahid died, his will dictated that his status as Shayk passed onto Safiyeddin.

Also, the Ottoman historian Hulvi writes in his work "Lemazat" that safiyeddin was Shayk and a member of the Halvetiye order. The Russian historian Petrusevskiy says in his work "Islam in Iran" that the first Safevi Shayks were Sunni. Z.V. Togan says that Shayk Safi was recorded as Sunni in Qaraqoyunlu Cihan Shah's waqf documents. Prof. Faruk Sumer says that up until Hoca Alaeddin Ali, the Shayks were Sunni. During the time of Hoca Alaeddin Ali the order took on a Shiite character, and his son Shayk Cuneyd adopted Shiasm completely. For this reason a rift developed between him and his uncle Cafer, and thereafter the order split into two branches, one Sunni and the other Shiite."

Of course, like mentioned, later Safavi Sheikhs were already Turkoman by blood even if we would assume them originally as non-Turk, but above is some real facts.

[Bugarash 1893]

I spoke to an Iraqi Kurd today-his family lives in Istanbul.
He told me that he doesnt speak Turkish!
Said that he is in the trade business and that everything in that sector flows in Kurdish.

Seems to me the Kurds are on the rise there,becoming more influential in society...when I asked him about Kurdistan within Turkey and the chance of them getting autonomy,he replies:
Most Kurds in Turkey dont really want autonomy,but want the entire country!

This is one in the series of stuff that definitely makes me draw a conclusion that Turks have a worst problem with Kurds than Macedonia has with Albanians!
Albanians dont want/cant take all of Macedonia.

[Hayalet]

Said that he is in the trade business and that everything in that sector flows in Kurdish.
Lying maggot. :lol:

[Bugarash 1893]

Lying maggot. :lol:

Im telling you what he told me.
I havent got an inside view on the issue,just telling you from what a random Kurd I met today told me.

[Hoca]

I heard Bulgarian Turks are growing in Bulgaria. They are during business with Turkey entirely in Turkish language xD Good luck with that Kurd getting Istanbul. If we are going to play numbers game we have 300 million Turks in the world to reconolize the Balkan and elsewhere.

[Bugarash 1893]

I heard Bulgarian Turks are growing in Bulgaria. They are during business with Turkey entirely in Turkish language xD

Turks in Bulgaria


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qJkaUKaoXs

Kurds in Turkey


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oldPXYLcOk8

[Hayalet]

Im telling you what he told me.
Then he would be the one who is a lying maggot. But I know you better than to believe that.

[Bugarash 1893]

Then he would be the one who is a lying maggot. But I know you better than to believe that.

Yeah I made it all up just to lie to a guy with a username Altay.:rotfl::picard1:

[Onur]

I spoke to an Iraqi Kurd today-his family lives in Istanbul.

He told me that he doesnt speak Turkish!
It`s not impossible but i still think either you or he is lying.


Said that he is in the trade business and that everything in that sector flows in Kurdish.
This is practically impossible.


Seems to me the Kurds are on the rise there,becoming more influential in society...when I asked him about Kurdistan within Turkey and the chance of them getting autonomy,he replies:

Most Kurds in Turkey dont really want autonomy,but want the entire country!
Well, it`s not like they can get the whole country but there are Kurds who said that the biggest Kurdish city in the world is Istanbul due to more than 2 million kurds living in there. There are some among them who dares to say that.

They are constantly expanding their mythical kurdistan and it`s reached to our southern med. coasts so far `till Hatay, Mersin and `till Blacksea coasts to the north, up to the border with Georgia.


This is one in the series of stuff that definitely makes me draw a conclusion that Turks have a worst problem with Kurds than Macedonia has with Albanians!

Albanians dont want/cant take all of Macedonia.
Ofc the kurdish problem in Turkey is 10 times bigger than the Albanian problem in Macedonia. They are terrorizing us for 30 years nonstop. If Turkey didn't get divided so far, it`s because of it`s strength. If Albos in Macedonia would have same power and determination as the kurds, then Macedonia would be destroyed in few months.

[Issy]

Is there no ethnic Turks in south eastern Turkey? or are they predominately Kurdish?

[Hoca]

Is there no ethnic Turks in south eastern Turkey? or are they predominately Kurdish?

There are also Arabs, Turkmen, Turks and others. And Kurds that are bound to Turkish republic and are hostile to Turkish republic. We need to deport them to Iraq IMHO.

[adsız]

Is there no ethnic Turks in south eastern Turkey? or are they predominately Kurdish?

There are. There are also kurdified Turks .Actually, Diyarbakır is a Turkmen city historically.


"Ne kadar dillerinin unutarak, değişik dillerinin sözlerini kullanırsalar bile, Diyarbakır, Mardin, Van, Batman, Adana, Şanlıurfa ve başka şehir, ilçe, köyler çoğunluk olarak Türkmendiler ve Türkmen oldukları tüm belgelerle arşivlerde bellidir."

http://www.altinmiras.com/?Syf=26&Syz=141748

[ChildOfTheJin]

There are also Arabs, Turkmen, Turks and others. And Kurds that are bound to Turkish republic and are hostile to Turkish republic. We need to deport them to Iraq IMHO.

Only if Turks crawl back to the Altay.

[ChildOfTheJin]

There are. There are also kurdified Turks .Actually, Diyarbakır is a Turkmen city historically.


"Ne kadar dillerinin unutarak, değişik dillerinin sözlerini kullanırsalar bile, Diyarbakır, Mardin, Van, Batman, Adana, Şanlıurfa ve başka şehir, ilçe, köyler çoğunluk olarak Türkmendiler ve Türkmen oldukları tüm belgelerle arşivlerde bellidir."

http://www.altinmiras.com/?Syf=26&Syz=141748

Ha in your fucking dreams.

[Hoca]

Only if Turks crawl back to the Altay.

We never crawled. That would be you. You never had a country as gypsy of the middle-east. We know were we came from.. the almighty Altay, whereas Kurds don't even know where they come from. When we came to Anatolia Kurds didn't even exist.

[ChildOfTheJin]

We never crawled. That would be you. You never had a country as gypsy of the middle-east. We know were we came from.. the almighty Altay, whereas Kurds don't even know where they come from. When we came to Anatolia Kurds didn't even exist.

Right so you're from the almighty Altay, if that place is so great why don't you fuck off back to there then? Didn't the Chinese build a wall to keep you pests out?

Your logic: Kurds are from the moon :picard1:

Damn t*rk...

[Hoca]

Right so you're from the almighty Altay, if that place is so great why don't you fuck off back to there then? Didn't the Chinese build a wall to keep you pests out?

Your logic: Kurds are from the moon :picard1:

Damn t*rk...
K*rd, you never match the Turks, you try to be European, you try to have a country, you try to oust the Turks and tell us they belong to Altay. Dude.. we have a country. It is you who doesn't have a country and never had a country in written history. GTFO filthy terrorist.

[ChildOfTheJin]

K*rd, you never match the Turks, you try to be European, you try to have a country, you try to oust the Turks and tell us they belong to Altay. Dude.. we have a country. It is you who doesn't have a country and never had a country in written history. GTFO filthy terrorist.

Well someone's pissed hahaha :crazy: :pound:

How about you go do this to a sheep :whoo:

[adsız]

kürdic ne lan amk ??? :)

Bu şerefsizi gördükten sonra gel de ırkçı olma..!

[MarkyMark]

Wait a minute. I truly want to know the answer to this. I was under the impression Kurds were originally from the Zagros mountains...If this is true, then why do they want land from Syria, Turkey, and Iraq?

[wvwvw]

It would be smart for Turkey to let the kurds have a indipendent Kurdistan because the number of kurds is growing from the current 20 million in Turkey alone-about 35% of the total population and dues entering a phase that threats the survival of the entire turkish state.

With a indipendent Kurdistan the turks will benifit.

Turkish Kurdistan is very rich in energy resources and lies in a key strategic position, so Turkey will do anything to prevent the creation of an Independent Kurdistan.

[Hayalet]

Turkish Kurdistan is very rich in energy resources
No, it isn't. Turkey imports over 70% of its energy. There are some major dams and hydroelectric power plants in the southeast, but those provinces are predominantly populated by ethnic Turks.

[legolasbozo]

No, it isn't. Turkey imports over 70% of its energy. There are some major dams and hydroelectric power plants in the southeast, but those provinces are predominantly populated by ethnic Turks.

Yes it is. At first İ also didn't believe this rumours but it talks about 200 billion dollars underground mines except oil. Because there were no proper research till lately because of PKK terror.

http://ekonomi.milliyet.com.tr/-petrol-haric-200-milyar-dolarlik-rezerv-var-/ekonomi/ekonomidetay/27.03.2013/1685987/default.htm

[legolasbozo]

Wait a minute. I truly want to know the answer to this. I was under the impression Kurds were originally from the Zagros mountains...If this is true, then why do they want land from Syria, Turkey, and Iraq?

Exactly, who want us to deported central asia, they can f*ck off their zagros mountains.

[Wolverine]

Can't Turks just get the fuck out from a European cultural forum if they think they're from altay? You tell Kurds they wanna be European when you wandered from Mongolia without a land yourself? :rotfl2

Turks are hated by the whole world anyway, in China they were unwanted, and got pressed westward, in Middle East they were unwanted and now they're unwanted in Europe, and hated by almost every single ethnicity of Europe. They were alone responsible for the Armenian genocide and fall of the Roman Empire.

I hope the Turks get deported to Mongolia and Asia again so the Chinese can do their final execution.

[Hayalet]

Yes it is. At first İ also didn't believe this rumours but it talks about 200 billion dollars underground mines except oil. Because there were no proper research till lately because of PKK terror.

http://ekonomi.milliyet.com.tr/-petrol-haric-200-milyar-dolarlik-rezerv-var-/ekonomi/ekonomidetay/27.03.2013/1685987/default.htm
No, it isn't. If there has been no proper research so far, what are you even talking about? And minerals like copper, gold or silver aren't energy resources.

[ariel]

Wait a minute. I truly want to know the answer to this. I was under the impression Kurds were originally from the Zagros mountains...If this is true, then why do they want land from Syria, Turkey, and Iraq?

as far as i know the kurds originated in central asia...

[denz]

Right so you're from the almighty Altay, if that place is so great why don't you fuck off back to there then? Didn't the Chinese build a wall to keep you pests out?

Your logic: Kurds are from the moon :picard1:

Damn t*rk...

Kurds are from where they belong which i m talking about pure one. If we need such chinese walls, it would be best fit in istanbul. Unfortunately, we cant see who is innocent, who is fundamentalist.

[legolasbozo]

Can't Turks just get the fuck out from a European cultural forum if they think they're from altay? You tell Kurds they wanna be European when you wandered from Mongolia without a land yourself? :rotfl2

Turks are hated by the whole world anyway, in China they were unwanted, and got pressed westward, in Middle East they were unwanted and now they're unwanted in Europe, and hated by almost every single ethnicity of Europe. They were alone responsible for the Armenian genocide and fall of the Roman Empire.

I hope the Turks get deported to Mongolia and Asia again so the Chinese can do their final execution.


A spanish wannabe kurd pretending like danish? too many bullshit. And anatolia is my homeland you genious, but even you have no idea where were you from. Fuck off to your zagnos or wherever it is mountains.

[Wolverine]

A spanish wannabe kurd pretending like danish? too many bullshit. And anatolia is my homeland you genious, but even you have no idea where were you from. Fuck off to your zagnos or wherever it is mountains.
No it's the country of Greeks, Armenians and Kurds. You already have Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Krygistan, Mongolia and China, you can find plenty of people in China you're related to and I'm not Kurdish, and I've never stated that on this forum.

[Wolverine]

as far as i know the kurds originated in central asia...

Kurds came from Iran they were the Medes who overpowered the brutal Assyrians.

[Hoca]

Kurds came from Iran they were the Medes who overpowered the brutal Assyrians.

I'm sure you are Kurdish now, haha. Only some Kurdish internet pseudo-historians believe Medes are related to Kurds. There is gap of thousands of years between them and no possible way to prove the link.

[ariel]

Kurds came from Iran they were the Medes who overpowered the brutal Assyrians.

the name kurdish appear only in the medieval period...its seem who the kurds are not natives here....

[Wolverine]

I'm sure you are Kurdish now, haha. Only some Kurdish internet pseudo-historians believe Medes are related to Kurds. There is gap of thousands of years between them and no possible way to prove the link.
Do you read any history at all? Are you're saying that Vladimir Minorsky was a Kurd? The Medes didn't just disappear, they got descendants and I've read that they linguistically are much similar to the Kurdish language.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Lol @ the Turks in this thread :picard1:

[ChildOfTheJin]

Wait a minute. I truly want to know the answer to this. I was under the impression Kurds were originally from the Zagros mountains...If this is true, then why do they want land from Syria, Turkey, and Iraq?

Kurds, as far as I know, are not from the traditional borders of Anatolia which excludes North Kurdistan. The Zagros mountains runs through South Kurdistan and East Kurdistan. Kurds are descended from the Hurrians/Halafs, Medes, Gutians and lots of other people. Kurds even have Greek (Due to Hellenic empires) ancestry and Italian (due to the Romans) ancestry. If you are interested in Kurdish history, look up the texts of Izady which clears up everything.

[ChildOfTheJin]

as far as i know the kurds originated in central asia...

Actually Jewish and Arabic sources say that Kurds are descended from 500 Jinns who bred with Slavic girls and then settled in the Near East.

[Hoca]

Haha, Kurds and their view on history, a people who never had a country grocery shopping their identity from history.. instead tell me when was the last time you had a country?

[ChildOfTheJin]

the name kurdish appear only in the medieval period...its seem who the kurds are not natives here....

It appears throughout history like the KARDuchis for example and the etymology of the word has Sumerian origins.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Haha, Kurds and their view on history, a people who never had a country grocery shopping their identity from history.. instead tell me when was the last time you had a country?

LOL you sounded so bitchy in that post
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kurdish_dynasties_and_countries

[Hoca]

LOL you sounded so bitchy in that post
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kurdish_dynasties_and_countries
LOL, wikipedia.. as usual no sources of course.

Instead of giving me crappy wikipedia links, give me an answer to this.. when was the last time Kurds had a country?

[ChildOfTheJin]

LOL, wikipedia.. as usual no sources of course.

Instead of giving me crappy wikipedia links, give me an answer to this.. when was the last time Kurds had a country?

LOL@thisstupidnewb :picard1:

There are sources on wikipedia, check them out yourself.

[legolasbozo]

LOL@thisstupidnewb :picard1:

There are sources on wikipedia, check them out yourself.

So what happened to your pkk? as far as i know you gonna establish your country? but they declareted permanent ceasefire. So you iraq kurd has to deal with other issues in your country, not in my country you ignorant boy. Anatolia is my homeland, what if i'm Greek or Armenian, but i feel Turk, do i have to go back central asia? You are kurd from holland and you feel yourself kurd, so go back to your filthy homeland.

[MarkyMark]

Can't Turks just get the fuck out from a European cultural forum if they think they're from altay? You tell Kurds they wanna be European when you wandered from Mongolia without a land yourself? :rotfl2

Turks are hated by the whole world anyway, in China they were unwanted, and got pressed westward, in Middle East they were unwanted and now they're unwanted in Europe, and hated by almost every single ethnicity of Europe. They were alone responsible for the Armenian genocide and fall of the Roman Empire.

I hope the Turks get deported to Mongolia and Asia again so the Chinese can do their final execution.

Well the Turks from Turkey are just Anatolians for the most part. If the Anatolians abandoned Islam, the Turkish language, and the Turkish name then they would probably get along much better with people. But if you are talking about the Turanic Central Asians then I agree with you.

[Wolverine]

Well the Turks from Turkey are just Anatolians for the most part. If the Anatolians abandoned Islam, the Turkish language, and the Turkish name then they would probably get along much better with people. But if you are talking about the Turanic Central Asians then I agree with you.
Turks are Turanid too, they just have it distantly in them because they mixed with so many people that they also got some West Asian influence with the invasions of Arabs, Persians and Armenians. They don't look like what the ancient Hittites looked like who were much purer and Nordid looking.

[adsız]

Kurds are not from the traditional borders of Anatolia ....Kurds are descended from the Hurrians/Halafs, Medes, Gutians ... Kurds even have Greek ancestry and Italian ancestry.


Kurds are descended from 500 Jinns who bred with Slavic girls

Make up a nation, history.

:)

"Greek and italian ancestry" >>>> i liked this too.. very much. :)

[Anatolian Eagle]

...ancient Hittites looked like who were much purer and Nordid looking.

:bowlol:

[adsız]

:bowlol:


Some in TA are really too funny.. :)

[Wolverine]

:bowlol:
The ancient Anatolians looked like Greeks, you don't look like Greeks, you're just a mishmash of everything.

[Anatolian Eagle]

bla bla bla

That sounds even more of nonsense, that's where the "pure and Nordid" looks is from? lol you're probably the worst nordicist in this forum

[Wolverine]

That sounds even more of nonsense, that's where the "pure and Nordid" looks is from? lol you're probably the worst nordicist in this forum
You're totally foreign to Europe, you look predominately hispanic. You've only had Turkey for 500 years before that it was Greek and I'm sorry but Greeks don't look like Turks at all. Greeks look more Dinaro-Mediterennean. :)

[Anatolian Eagle]

You're totally foreign to Europe, you look predominately hispanic. You've only had Turkey for 500 years before that it was Greek and I'm sorry but Greeks don't look like Turks at all. Greeks look more Dinaro-Mediterennean. :)

You're making yourself sound worse in every post you make. Yes Turks are hispanic and ancient Anatolia was consisting of Nordids before Turks.

And only 500 years? Lulz. You either know nothing about Turks at all or you're just plain ignorant, waste of time.

[Wolverine]

You're making yourself sound worse in every post you make. Yes Turks are hispanic and ancient Anatolia was consisting of Nordids before Turks.

And only 500 years? Lulz. You either know nothing about Turks at all or you're just plain ignorant, waste of time.
How much then? It's not even even 600. And I weren't saying you were Hispanic, I said you looked like Hispanics, and neither did I say that the Anatolians were Nordid. I said that they looked more like Nordids. I wouldn't have said aryan, since you always get stamped as a nazi by saying that.

[Musso]

"Kurds even have Greek ancestry and Italian ancestry."

source???

[ChildOfTheJin]

"Kurds even have Greek ancestry and Italian ancestry."

source???

23andme, all the Kurds that I know, that have taken a test, have little bit of Italian and/or Greek ancestry but it's not a very significant number.

[ChildOfTheJin]

i liked this too.. very much. :)

I liked your mum too :thumb001:

[legolasbozo]

I liked your mum too :thumb001:

Sorry but you kurds have so inferiority complex that try to embrace your swarthyness by make a fake correlation with italians,greeks, and spanish people. Do you know why? Because you guys try to involve that well known "mediterranean concept" and to make this, someone claim they have italian anchestry, some write they have spanish grandma(!) sorry but this is just pathetic, don't try to be someone else, just be yourself!

[ChildOfTheJin]

Sorry but you kurds have so inferiority complex that try to embrace your swarthyness by make a fake correlation with italians,greeks, and spanish people. Do you know why? Because you guys try to involve that well known "mediterranean concept" and to make this, someone claim they have italian anchestry, some write they have spanish grandma(!) sorry but this is just pathetic, don't try to be someone else, just be yourself!

I am myself, I have been classified as a PREDOMINENT (EASTERN) MEDITERRANID and I am proud of it! You seem so obsessed with my Spanish side, why do you think I have a Spanish flag right beside my Kurdish and Dutch flags in my room? Because that's who I am!

[legolasbozo]

I am myself, I have been classified as a PREDOMINENT (EASTERN) MEDITERRANID and I am proud of it! You seem so obsessed with my Spanish side, why do you think I have a Spanish flag right beside my Kurdish and Dutch flags in my room? Because that's who I am!

Here we go, as far as i know you wrote both of your grandmother's name was gül but then you referred it her real name was rosa?

[ChildOfTheJin]

Here we go, as far as i know you wrote both of your grandmother's name was gül but then you referred it her real name was rosa?

Rosa? Her real name was Bonita, my grandfather called her gule.

[Linet]

What does the fact that Kurds look like this or that has to do anything with the subject you are discussing? :chin:

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Because they recently became relatives with Jew too..

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1626606/posts

If they think they can find political support, they would claim brotherhood with Chinese...

that must be called universal brotherhood ,everyone is their relative

[Musso]

I would think any Mediterranean influence in Kurds would be extraneous, because Kurds are an Iranic people and are more closely tied to Iranians more than anybody else.

[ChildOfTheJin]

I would think any Mediterranean influence in Kurds would be extraneous, because Kurds are an Iranic people and are more closely tied to Iranians more than anybody else.

Iranids are Mediterranids

[ChildOfTheJin]

Because they recently became relatives with Jew too..

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1626606/posts

If they think they can find political support, they would claim brotherhood with Chinese...

that must be called universal brotherhood ,everyone is their relative

Did you read Linet's post?



What does the fact that Kurds look like this or that has to do anything with the subject you are discussing?


Title of topic:

Kurds-do-not-divide-Turkey-but-Invade

And your post?


Because they recently became relatives with Jew too..

Anyway... The common ancestor between Kurds and Jews resided in Northern Mesopotamia.

[Wolverine]

I would think any Mediterranean influence in Kurds would be extraneous, because Kurds are an Iranic people and are more closely tied to Iranians more than anybody else.
Iranids are more closesly related to Mediterannids than anybody else.

[Musso]

Iranids are Mediterranids

I'm saying more it would be rather extraneous if Kurds cluster with Italians or Greeks. I would think Kurds should cluster strongly with Iranian ethnic groups.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Yes, I've read and that is my answer..
You became relatives with almost everyone recently ..

[Wolverine]

I'm saying more it would be rather extraneous if Kurds cluster with Italians or Greeks. I would think Kurds should cluster strongly with Iranian ethnic groups.
You know nothing of Kurds. The difference between Kurds and Iranians are that Kurds have fairer skin and a more Robust look with more CM influence and light eyes are more frequent in Kurds while Iranians have more East Iranid influence with onviously much darker skin and shorter height.

[Musso]

You know nothing of Kurds. The difference between Kurds and Iranians are that Kurds have fairer skin and a more Robust look with more CM influence and light eyes are more frequent in Kurds while Iranians have more East Iranid influence with onviously much darker skin and shorter height.

I'm talking about genetic clustering. Kurds cluster with Iranians. As for looks, there's significant overlap though Southern Iranians will be on average darker than the Kurds of Anatolia.

[adsız]

i liked your mum too :thumb001:

loki,

this is allowed ?

[ChildOfTheJin]

loki,

this is allowed ?

No it's not allowed, along with half the things you have said in this forum. Your fault, you offend me then I offend you, that's how life is, get that through your posh brain.

[Linet]

No family members, no dirty talking :no:
Doesnt matter how much you disagree....

[adsız]

No it's not allowed, along with half the things you have said in this forum. Your fault, you offend me then I offend you, that's how life is, get that through your posh brain.

But i never use bad words against at your relatives.

Then ,

If it is a matter of mother, ask YOUR KURDISH HOMELESS MOTHER in caves..What WE HAVE BEEN DOING FOR A THOUSAND YEARS...!

Saddam Hussein was a hero. Chemical Ali was too. :)
Arabs will exterminate you in Iraq soon. This time You will have no US soldiers on your mother to offer your daughter in order for them to protect you. You know it..

[adsız]

Linet,

That is what he always does.

Why not ban yet ?

[Musso]

But i never use bad words against at your relatives.

Then ,

If it is a matter of mother, ask YOUR KURDISH HOMELESS MOTHER in caves..What WE HAVE BEEN DOING FOR A THOUSAND YEARS...!

Saddam Hussein was a hero. Chemical Ali was too. :)
Arabs will exterminate you in Iraq soon. This time You will have no US soldiers on your mother to offer your daughter in order for them to protect you. You know it..

Adsiz, you could have taken the higher ground....

and I don't understand how a person is a hero for exterminating innocent civilians.

[adsız]

Mother is holly in my culture , Musso. You must know it.

The son of bitch kurd know it and insult my mother ..

And this is the second time he is doing that.
I reported both, no action.

Then....


He is a son of bitch ...!

I like Saddam fucked them up in Iraq. They deserved it.

If i were Saddam, i would fuck all of them..!

[adsız]

-----

[Musso]

Mother is holly in my culture , Musso. You must know it.

The son of bitch kurd know it and insult my mother ..

And this is the second time he is doing that.
I reported both, no action.

Then....


He is a son of bitch ...!

I like Saddam fucked them up in Iraq. They deserved it.

If i were Saddam, i would fuck all of them..!

Same in my culture. And it's wrong for anyone to insult one's mother.

----

You might be angry with this particular Kurd, but I don't understand how a man who killed innocent women and children can be liked. Basic humanity. The killing of innocent civilians is universally wrong.

[ChildOfTheJin]

But i never use bad words against at your relatives.

Then ,

If it is a matter of mother, ask YOUR KURDISH HOMELESS MOTHER in caves..What WE HAVE BEEN DOING FOR A THOUSAND YEARS...!

Saddam Hussein was a hero. Chemical Ali was too. :)
Arabs will exterminate you in Iraq soon. This time You will have no US soldiers on your mother to offer your daughter in order for them to protect you. You know it..

Oh was he? So the fact that he killed thousands of Turkmen and a sizeable amount of Azeris doesn't bother you? I know that Kurdistan will be freed from tyrannical hands. If the Arabs can fuck us, why aren't they?

My comments are the fault of the Turks, your ignorant and two-faced comments can piss people off. You want me to respect you? You should respect me first, it was your comment that provoked me.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Mother is holly in my culture

The son of bitch kurd

lol... Hypocrisy

[legolasbozo]

lol... Hypocrisy

Politics not works how you wish, westerners need asala and they can found a space to live, but when living conditions was over, it stopped suddenly. Your god apo terrorized kurdish right in Turkey, the man reason was to destabilize the country, and since the reason has been over, now he is trying to make peace. İ guess you know that pkk announced permanent ceasefire? So don't make your mind up with politics. Just try to prove kurds are aryan, kurds are white, your granmother is spanish etc.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Politics not works how you wish, westerners need asala and they can found a space to live, but when living conditions was over, it stopped suddenly. Your god apo terrorized kurdish right in Turkey, the man reason was to destabilize the country, and since the reason has been over, now he is trying to make peace. İ guess you know that pkk announced permanent ceasefire? So don't make your mind up with politics. Just try to prove kurds are aryan, kurds are white, your granmother is spanish etc.

Apo God? I don't believe in a God mate :) Ocalan or rather the PKK improved Kurdish rights, if it wasn't for them I would be known as a 'Mountain Turk' The ceasefire happened because of the Turkish Government and many Turkish nationalists are angry at Erdogan for 'surrenduring to terrorist demands' Ocalan has been trying to make peace for years but your ignorant Government never listened, if they did they could have avoided at least a thousand deaths.

Weren't you that guy that said Turks are European and white?

[legolasbozo]

Apo God? I don't believe in a God mate :) Ocalan or rather the PKK improved Kurdish rights, if it wasn't for them I would be known as a 'Mountain Turk' The ceasefire happened because of the Turkish Government and many Turkish nationalists are angry at Erdogan for 'surrenduring to terrorist demands' Ocalan has been trying to make peace for years but your ignorant Government never listened, if they did they could have avoided at least a thousand deaths.

Weren't you that guy that said Turks are European and white?

1) you are not Kurd from turkey 2)even if you were, you are living in diaspora so don't have any idea about the situation, do you know that Mountain Turk perception has over 20 years before? Do you know for 5-6 years kurdish is second language in schools? Do you know kurdish language has an academic importance in universities? İf that was what were you looking for why pkk didn't abonden gunfight then? Some turks are angry but also some radical kurds as well. They are questionning their struggle, what for? But this is peace so both side looking forward to victory, consequences won't make everbody happy. İf you ask my opinion, i want free kurdistan. İ don'twant to live with those barbars in my country, i don't want those lunatics ignorants in my lovely cities istanbul, izmir, antalya. They canlive their holly amed freely, but i don'twant any seperatist or apoist inistanbul, izmir etc. İ never said we are white, european etc, but if that was the case Turks are more european and white than kurds but who give a damn about that.

[Linet]

İ don'twant to live with those barbars in my country, i don't want those lunatics ignorants in my lovely cities istanbul, izmir, antalya.

What an irony http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/girls/m04113.gif...
...I dont want the Barbarians in my lovely cities either, but i am sure we are talking about different people :chin:
....Sorry i couldnt hold it :icon_rolleyes:

[legolasbozo]

What an irony http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/girls/m04113.gif...
...I dont want the Barbarians in my lovely cities either, but i am sure we are talking about different people :chin:
....Sorry i couldnt hold it :icon_rolleyes:

İ'm anatolian you are greek i have no claim for athene so you couldn't have for istanbul. But if you or kurds dare to capture the city, and rules it 600 years then i will give whole my rights on it, deal? What are you waiting for, be my guest.

[Linet]

İ'm anatolian you are greek i have no claim for athene so you couldn't have for istanbul. But if you or kurds dare to capture the city, and rules it 600 years then i will give whole my rights on it, deal? What are you waiting for, be my guest.

You didnt built Athena, we built Smirni...see the difference? :chin:

[Turkophagos]

İ'm anatolian you are greek i have no claim for athene


We don't have any claims for ankara or batman either.

[legolasbozo]

You didnt built Athena, we built Smirni...see the difference? :chin:


İzmir has a high levant population, venetan, brit, german, flaman etc. They are still living there and if you ask me they have had a great contribution to izmir. But if you mention about ephesus and all that ancient stuff you are right. But if we have to go back in time, the cradle of the civilization was middle east so all we must deported somewhere else then?


We don't have any claims for ankara or batman either.

Oh really? Then why you tried to capture afyon, eskişehir at Mikrasiatiki ekstrateia?

[Turkophagos]

Oh really? Then why you tried to capture afyon, eskişehir at Mikrasiatiki ekstrateia?


Eskisehir and afyon are neither ankara nor batman.

[Linet]

İzmir has a high levant population, venetan, brit, german, flaman etc. They are still living there and if you ask me they have had a great contribution to izmir. But if you mention about ephesus and all that ancient stuff you are right. But if we have to go back in time, the cradle of the civilization was middle east so all we must deported somewhere else then?


:picard1:
Smirni darning was built by us and was a metropolis for us for 3000 years....

[legolasbozo]

Eskisehir and afyon are neither ankara nor batman.

Eskişehir and afyon are neither izmir nor istanbul. Were there any greek population density or contrubition made by you on those cities? Or you just wanted to occupy them? The thing is human nature expect more. So simple. When it gets the opportunity tries to capture, tries to increase its power. Byzantine Empire was like that, ottomans so was, and when you got the opportunity you came till afyon, if you would keep your chance you would have moved to Ankara, don't cheat on me. And you will allways be waiting till the end to capture smyrna and constantinapole again, andwe will defend it to the end. God knows who will win. What i am saying before blame us, blame human nature.


By the way i m against backward mindset people settlement in istanbul, whether turk or kurd. And i m defending living together in peace like many years before, but if you want to take it back after hundreds years later, i just can say be my guest.

[Hayalet]

Eskişehir and afyon are neither izmir nor istanbul.
All four cities were predominantly Turkish during the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-22.

[European mixer]

Free Kurdistan and muslims tell us that they're brother and sisters and do things like this to each other. Then again muslims are natural born hypocrites.

[alanr]

If Armenians actually believe they have a historic claim over Eastern Anatolia or that they will ever be able to lay claim on it I actually feel sorry for them.

[alanr]

Mother is holly in my culture , Musso. You must know it.

The son of bitch kurd know it and insult my mother ..

And this is the second time he is doing that.
I reported both, no action.

Then....


He is a son of bitch ...!

I like Saddam fucked them up in Iraq. They deserved it.

If i were Saddam, i would fuck all of them..!

Did he now? Saddam also butchered Turkmens and stuck his middle finger to Turkey on several occasions, yet Turkey didn't have the balls to mutter a word, but then again, in is prime he had the 4th strongest army in the world, but that didn't stop us Kurds from fighting him, and nothing will. We are fighting 4 countries at the same time, and surviving, who else can make that claim?

Arabs are going to do what? America left two years ago and our army is still marching. We have surrounded Kirkuk now :) I don't know if you read the news or not, but the Iraqi army is busy fighting Sunni Arabs in Iraq you uneducated pathetic excuse of an ape.

[alanr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfu7MvsVF5E

[Armenian Bishop]

If Armenians actually believe they have a historic claim over Eastern Anatolia or that they will ever be able to lay claim on it I actually feel sorry for them.

If your reference to Eastern Anatolia includes the Armenian Highlands of Western Armenia, then you're sadly deluded, if you think that Armenians don't have a historic claim to Western Armenia. Whether Armenians can actually reclaim Western Armenia is another matter -- unclear and open to speculation.

[alanr]

If your reference to Eastern Anatolia includes the Armenian Highlands of Western Armenia, then you're sadly deluded, if you think that Armenians don't have a historic claim to Western Armenia. Whether Armenians can actually reclaim Western Armenia is another matter -- unclear and open to speculation.

Armenians don't have a significant population to make such claims, nor will you any time soon. Optimism is good, but to suggest that Northern Kurdistan will ever be called Armenia is plain stupidity, it's either going to be Northern Kurdistan or Eastern Turkey to be honest. I'm all for compensating Armenians for what happened, but with everything has it's limits. Financial support and official recognition of the genocide is my belief if Armenians admit and apologise for massacring 5000 Kurds in Rawanduz with the help of Russia.

[Musso]

Armenians don't have a significant population to make such claims, nor will you any time soon. Optimism is good, but to suggest that Northern Kurdistan will ever be called Armenia is plain stupidity, it's either going to be Northern Kurdistan or Eastern Turkey to be honest. I'm all for compensating Armenians for what happened, but with everything has it's limits. Financial support and official recognition of the genocide is my belief if Armenians admit and apologise for massacring 5000 Kurds in Rawanduz with the help of Russia.

The Armenian Highlands have always been the ancestral lands for the Armenian people, with the heartland being the Ararat plains. There´s really no room to debate here regarding the historical accuracy of that. The absence of Armenians is not due to historical fallacy but due to human crafted crime, in which Kurds were participants. Though Kurds have apologized, so at least there´s that.

[Armenian Bishop]

Armenians don't have a significant population to make such claims, nor will you any time soon. Optimism is good, but to suggest that Northern Kurdistan will ever be called Armenia is plain stupidity, it's either going to be Northern Kurdistan or Eastern Turkey to be honest. I'm all for compensating Armenians for what happened, but with everything has it's limits. Financial support and official recognition of the genocide is my belief if Armenians admit and apologise for massacring 5000 Kurds in Rawanduz with the help of Russia.

The guest commentary by Toros Sarian, in Muriel Mirak-Weissbach's newsletters, is quiet informative: He concludes that Armenians probably didn't kill 5,000 Kurds in Rawanduz (in 1916), because the sources, which support the accusation, are obscure and unreliable. Here is an excerpt which debunks the Rawanduz accusation, with the news article source-link in blue:

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.mirak-weissbach.de/Toros-Sarian/Toros-Sarian.html&sa=U&ei=GwmGUar1BKnziwKUoYCQCA&ved=0CBgQFjAA&sig2=JCo9UJSB5TfdcD2E8kd9lQ&usg=AFQjCNEmSaWAr9S6gU3zyWjJXaJ6H8Ao_A

Kutlay writes: “At some places they released Kurds in prison to kill Armenians. However Armenian Fedayeen and organisations, during the Russian invasion of the Kurdistan, responded with the same massacres. According to some sources, 5000 Kurds were killed in May 1916 in the city of Rawanduz.[10] This was very clearly an act of revenge.“ He does not consider it necessary to cite a source for this very serious accusation. Although there is no reference to any scientific work, Kutley seems to have used an essay by the well-known historian Dr. Kemal Mazhar Ahmed published in 1975 by the Kurdish Academy in Baghdad.[11] “The city was taken on May 13. The Armenians fedayeens wanted to take vengeance and as a result they shed a lot of blood. According to some sources, at the end of the massacre 5000 Kurdish women, children, and men were killed. Many of them had not been shot but had been thrust into the Rawanduz gorge.” Ahmed’s work states. In a footnote, he refers to a book by K. Mason, an English officer at the time. It dealt with the question of the Turkish-Iraqi border and the role of the League of Nations. It is curious that in his footnote remarks K.M. Ahmad himself doubts that in Rawanduz 5000 Kurds had been killed: “This figure seems to be exaggerated. Neither M.H. Zeki, who reports on the destructions of the war, nor Hüseyn H. Mukriyani, who lived in Rawanduz after World War I and wrote about it, cite such a figure. Among the people it was said that many Kurdish women had thrown themselves into the gorge to save their honor.” Thus, not only is the number 5000 murdered Kurds questionable, but also whether or not such a mass murder took place at all in Rawanduz. Naci Kutlay seems either not to have read this important remark by K.M. Ahmed or to have deliberately concealed it. What remains fixed in the mind of the reader is that in Rawanduz 5000 Kurds fell victim to an act of revenge by Armenian Fedayeen.
Clearly one dare not play down the gravity of crimes or remain silent about them. When, however, scientists or intellectuals make such serious allegations like the killing of 5000 Kurds, without a shred of concrete evidence, they are knowingly or unknowingly promoting animosity, hatred, and mistrust among peoples. That Armenians who were in the areas that were under Russian control from 1916 committed acts of revenge cannot be denied. Many Armenian Fedayeen came from Western Armenia. They had fought there against the government troops and Hamidian regiments before the “Young Turk Revolution of 1908“. So the pro-government Kurdish tribal groups that had participated in the massacres were known to the Armenians. This is why they directed their vengeance mainly against these Kurds. In Rawanduz, which is in the south, outside the areas of Armenian settlements, there was no Armenian population worth mentioning. The Kurdish tribes in this region of Kurdistan had not taken part in Armenian massacres, under Abdul Hamid’s rule or later. Thus it is unlikely that Armenian Fedayeen should have committed acts of revenge against the Kurds there of all people.

[alanr]

That is all a pile of garbage, it is well documented in Kurdish history. Not only the Armenians, but the Assyrians took part too, while I agree that the numbers are unclear the massacre happened for sure. You sound like a Turk denying your genocide.

[Onur]

Armenians killed around 200.000 Kurdish and Turkish civilians together with Russian army during WW-1.

[Arsen_]

If Armenians actually believe they have a historic claim over Eastern Anatolia or that they will ever be able to lay claim on it I actually feel sorry for them.

If Kurds actually believe they have a historic claim over Eastern Anatolia or that they will ever be able to lay claim on it and ignore rights of Armenians I actually feel sorry for them too.

[ChildOfTheJin]

If Kurds actually believe they have a historic claim over Eastern Anatolia.

We do


or that they will ever be able to lay claim on it

We can and we did a few months ago (Some PKK units controlled some mountain areas until they withdrew recently)


ignore rights of Armenians

We don't.

[alanr]

If Kurds actually believe they have a historic claim over Eastern Anatolia or that they will ever be able to lay claim on it and ignore rights of Armenians I actually feel sorry for them too.

And what do Armenians plan to do? I recall the Assyrians saying the same :) people need to be realistic and realize their position. I admit that the Kurdish geopolitic location is horrible, thus we have no choice but play buddies with Turkey and you can see that we are. Like I said, it's either going to be Northern Kurdistan or Eastern Turkey.

[Arsen_]

And what do Armenians plan to do? I recall the Assyrians saying the same :) people need to be realistic and realize their position. I admit that the Kurdish geopolitic location is horrible, thus we have no choice but play buddies with Turkey and you can see that we are. Like I said, it's either going to be Northern Kurdistan or Eastern Turkey.

As President of Armenia said: "We liberated from enemy one part of our fatherland - Arcax. Next time we will liberate another part of our fatherland - Western Armenia with Ararat".

[Hayalet]

As President of Armenia said: "We liberated from enemy one part of our fatherland - Arcax. Next time we will liberate another part of our fatherland - Western Armenia with Ararat".
Good to know. Which president was that?

[Arsen_]

Good to know. Which president was that?

Present

[ChildOfTheJin]

U
Present

Seems to be a comedian rather than a President xD

[Hoca]

As President of Armenia said: "We liberated from enemy one part of our fatherland - Arcax. Next time we will liberate another part of our fatherland - Western Armenia with Ararat".

We will brake his hands

[Onur]

Good to know. Which president was that?
Didn't you hear that before?


Ermenistan Cumhurbaşkanı Serj Sarkisyan, katıldığı bir programda Ermeni gençlerin sorularını yanıtladı. Sarkisyan yeni nesillere görevlerini ve hedeflerini skandal sözlerle anlattı.

Ermenistan Cumhurbaşkanı Serj Sarkisyan, Türkiye’nin doğusunda bulunan ve Ermeniler tarafından “Batı Ermenistan toprakları” olarak adlandırılan Ağrı Dağı bölgesinin geri alınmasını yeni nesillere görev gösterdi.

Ermenistan’da dün düzenlenen Ermeni dili ve edebiyatı yarışmasında öğrencilerden birinin, “Batı topraklarımızı Ağrı Dağı’yla birlikte geri alabilecek miyiz” sorusuna yanıt veren Sarkisyan, “Bu sizin neslinize bağlı. Mesela benim nesil üzerine düşen görevi başarıyla yerine getirdi. 90’lı yıllarda vatanımızın parçası Artsah’ı (Karabağ bölgesini) düşmanın elinden kurtardık. Her neslin bir görevi vardır. Siz de ileride bizim gibi görevinizi yerine getirip getirmeyeceğiniz birlik ve beraberliğinize bağlıdır. Biz Ermeni ulusu her zaman Anka kuşu gibi küllerden dirilmeyi başarmışızdır” şeklinde konuştu.

http://www.haber7.com/asya/haber/767456-sarkisyan-karabagi-biz-aldik-agriyi-size-biraktik

[Musso]

The thing is though, Sargsyan said this:


While speaking to participants of the fifth All Armenian Olympiad of Armenian language and literature on Saturday, President Serzh Sarkisian was confronted with a question about the historic Armenian territories in Western Armenia.

Sarkisian’s response: “everything depends on the young generation.”

A student asked Sarkisian whether Western Armenia, with Mount Ararat, will ever be united with Armenia.

“Everything depends on the young generation. Every generation has some goal to achieve,” said the President.

“The current generation defended and liberated a part of Armenian land. If the future generation makes much effort then Armenia will be one of the best states in the world,” said Sarkisian.

“Generally, the power of the state is not defined through its territory. The state should be modern, secure and prosperous. The Armenian people are able to achieve their goals. And they will if they believe in it,” added President Sargsyan.

Looks like Turkish media twisted his words.....

[ChildOfTheJin]

The thing is though, Sargsyan said this:



Looks like Turkish media twisted his words.....

As they usually do to all their enemies.

[alanr]

What a joke. Armenians you're truly deluded.

[alanr]

As President of Armenia said: "We liberated from enemy one part of our fatherland - Arcax. Next time we will liberate another part of our fatherland - Western Armenia with Ararat".

I asked for a plan, not an empty statement made by a man hoping to score some political points in Armenia. To make such an ambitious statement he must have a rather prestigious plan, am I correct? :lol00002:

[Musso]

What a joke. Armenians you're truly deluded.

Did you read what the President actually said?

[alanr]

Did you read what the President actually said?

Well, he didn't exactly give a clear answer did he? thus, one can conclude that he didn't exactly say no, and with no clear definition the way to interpreter his statement is open for debate.

[Musso]

Well, he didn't exactly give a clear answer did he? thus, one can conclude that he didn't exactly say no, and with no clear definition the way to interpreter his statement is open for debate.

Which means you can't infer that he's saying for future generation to take back Western Armenia, he said:

“The current generation defended and liberated a part of Armenian land. If the future generation makes much effort then Armenia will be one of the best states in the world,”

you can twist his words all you want, but he never specifically said that.

[Hayalet]

you can twist his words all you want, but he never specifically said that.
Arsen is the one here who first quoted the president like that.

[alanr]

Which means you can't infer that he's saying for future generation to take back Western Armenia, he said:

“The current generation defended and liberated a part of Armenian land. If the future generation makes much effort then Armenia will be one of the best states in the world,”

you can twist his words all you want, but he never specifically said that.

He clearly said "part of Armenian land" suggesting that there is more, and suggesting that if future generations attempt to exnand they will make it the one of the best states in the world.

Off course he is just deluded.

[Arsen_]

I asked for a plan, not an empty statement made by a man hoping to score some political points in Armenia. To make such an ambitious statement he must have a rather prestigious plan, am I correct? :lol00002:

Yeah, sure, Kurds have prestigious plans! And Armenians do not have plans at all.

All these talks are pointless. First let Kurds have an inch of land which they could call independent country and then we will see.

[Musso]

He clearly said "part of Armenian land" suggesting that there is more, and suggesting that if future generations attempt to exnand they will make it the one of the best states in the world.

Off course he is just deluded.

part of Armenian land, he was referring to Karabakh. And no, you can't make that inference.


Basically you are saying
"If the future generation makes much effort then Armenia will be one of the best states in the world,” = "Children, you need to take over Western Armenia"

the inference is invalid. He made a purposefully general statement.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Yeah, sure, Kurds have prestigious plans! And Armenians do not have plans at all.

All these talks are pointless. First let Kurds have an inch of land which they could call independent country and then we will see.

Isn't the KRG good enough?

[alanr]

Isn't the KRG good enough?

No need to even respond to them. Southern Kurdistan is in a better position than most independent states. Not only does it benefit from all the possibilities of an independent state, it has the benefits of being a federal region, i.e. a share of the federal budget, a share of political influence in the central capital and the international protection of a "region" fact of the matter is, Kurds are involved in major political negotiations that affect the middle east, can Armenia claim any of that? even though they're "independent" on the map?