The Genetic Link of the Viking–Era Norse to Central Asia: An Assessment...

[SuuT]

***(This is very lengthy and complex, but it is also very controversial [or perhaps not] and worth the read)


The Genetic Link of the Viking – Era Norse to Central Asia:
An Assessment of the Y Chromosome DNA, Archaeological,
Historical and Linguistic Evidence


Abstract

There is general agreement that by 8000 BC the retreat of the glaciers had left most of Scandinavia open for human settlement; that there has likely been continuous settlement in Norway and Sweden since this time. It is generally accepted that descendants of these hunter – gatherers from three southern European glacial refugia ultimately became the Scandinavian Vikings circa 800 AD. What has not been adequately addressed is the evidence demonstrating that there was a significant movement of people, as well as their horses and cultural traditions, from Central Asia to Scandinavia in the years immediately prior to the Viking - Era. Many or most explorations of the matter have assumed that trade explains the appearance of all the Central Asian finds in Scandinavia. What this approach fails to explain is the presence of Scandinavians with DNA signatures that are not European, but which bear a direct link to the Caucasus Mountain and Central Asian regions. It is also argued here that it was this population shift and consequent cultural upheavals that sparked the Scandinavian expansions in the years to follow. What makes the present study entirely different from those who have addressed (often somewhat controversially) this matter is the reliance on Y chromosome genetic evidence. Historical, linguistic, archaeological data sources are used to support the Central Asian migration hypothesis. The focus of the present study is to cross – validate these other sources of evidence by analyzing the results of testing of the non – recombining part of the Y chromosome (NRY). This male lineage marker is known for its power as a tool in the exploration of human population movements. In this case it is shown that not only did human groups migrate from Central Asia to Scandinavia, but in addition genetic evidence concludes that the horses so important in Scandinavian life also originated in Mongolia, and were brought to Scandinavia at approximately the same time as the proposed migration of humans. It is argued that these people with a long history of using horses and ships to extract wealth and territory from opponents are the most likely candidates for the leaders of those who founded the Norse colonies such as the Shetland Islands circa 800AD and Iceland circa 870AD. The most important contribution of the present study is to use Y-DNA genetic databases with samples scattered from Mongolia to Britain to show the continuity of genetic marker patterns from the Shetland Islands and other Norse colonies to groups such as the Altai of Central Asia, and the Azeri of Azerbaijan, and the lack of similarity of this subset of the Scandinavian population to local
Eastern Europeans...

http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRootsofScandinavia-Y-DNAEvidence.pdf
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________

[Edenrose]

Sorry, not converted.

[Atlas]

Edenrose : http://www.theapricity.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7

:)

[Lenny]

Uhh, what?

The hypothesis is that Central-Asian Mongoloids were the founding core stock of the people [or, their aristocracy] that became the northern-Germanics? That's...weird.

Unless they mean that it was Nordics from Central-Asia (and there were certainly plenty of those in prehistory; it's where they evolved in all likelihood), in which case that makes some sense.

This:

the horses so important in Scandinavian life also originated in Mongolia, and were brought to Scandinavia at approximately the same time as the proposed migration of humans...suggests that the author(s) mean the former, though.

I didn't read the whole PDF, does anyone who did read it want to offer some highlights?

[Brännvin]

David Faux, work is extremely controversial, there is no proof that what he calls, the haplogroup I is the dominant in Scandinavia followed by R1b and R1a.

Based on such theory of it, all Europeans without exception are Asians.



The hypothesis is that Central-Asian Mongoloids were the founding core stock of the people [or, their aristocracy] that became the northern-Germanics? That's...weird.

Very dubious both from a historical perspective and "a genetic".

[Lenny]

David Faux, work is extremely controversial, there is no proof that what he calls, the haplogroup I is the dominant in Scandinavia followed by R1b and R1a.
I always heard that "I" evolved in Europe and was associated with the holdouts in Central-Europe during the ice age.

Is he saying it is Oriental in origin? Baed on--?


http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3928/ydnamapco8.jpg
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4821/europehaplogroups1.jpg
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7463/europehaplogroups2.jpg

[Electronic God-Man]

I'm only on page 5 so far, but the author is definitely saying that there was large-scale migration from Central Asia to Scandinavia, which possibly replaced many of the indigenous peoples and traditions.

Evidence apparently being that they find a surprisingly high amount of Asian DNA in areas settled by the Norse (Q, R1a1, and K Y-DNA haplogroups), the sheer amount of artifacts that point to a connection between Scandinavia and Central Asia is possibly too great to be merely from trade, and other things like the Aesir = Azeri (as in Azerbaijan) theory.

[Psychonaut]

Come on guys. A scholarly essay has been presented. Disagreeing with the author's thesis is well and good, but doing so without having read what he has to say is a sure fire way to inadvertently concoct strawman arguments.

[Brännvin]

The sheer amount of artifacts that point to a connection between Scandinavia and Central Asia is possibly too great to be merely from trade, and other things like the Aesir = Azeri (as in Azerbaijan) theory.

Based on what, this will not only Scandinavia, but throughout Europe.

And claimed by whom, Thor Heyerdahl. This is extremely disputed, without mentioning that David Faux plagiarism of Heyerdahl theory.

Heyerdahl is extremely controversial inside the academic circles..

[Bloodeagle]

Ah, where is Oswiu? I feel like getting a good brow beating today!

[Brännvin]

I always heard that "I" evolved in Europe and was associated with the holdouts in Central-Europe during the ice age.

Here a interesting study about it;

Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I (http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v75_Semino.pdf)



http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3928/ydnamapco8.jpg
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4821/europehaplogroups1.jpg
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7463/europehaplogroups2.jpg
The current distribution of subclade Haplogroup I1;

http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/I1a_large_RG.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8b/I1_europe.jpg

[Lenny]

Come on guys. A scholarly essay has been presented. Disagreeing with the author's thesis is well and good, but doing so without having read what he has to say is a sure fire way to inadvertently concoct strawman arguments.
I am too busy to actually read it, now, which is why I asked someone to sum up the arguments and clarify so I/we could avoid confusion.

His thesis seems absurd to me, so I think skepticism is warranted.

Furthermore, just because someone publishes something in a PDF (or an academic journal) doesn't per-se make it Academic. I'm sure the communist crank and pseudoscientist Lysenko was published in the journals of his own day.

I glanced at the PDF and found no reference to it being published in any journal. Not peer-reviewed? (It says Copyright 2007 David K. Faux). How exactly is it academic then?

[Lenny]

It's always important to know an author's biases:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/

He proclaims his pride in his partial American-Indian ancestry on his front page.

MOHAWK FAMILY TREE

NATIVE AMERICAN DNA TESTING

and then...

It is from Hannah Adelia that I derive my German and my Native North American heritage.



Deconstructing Europeanism fits with that motif, eh?

[Brännvin]

I glanced at the PDF and found no reference to it being published in any journal. Not peer-reviewed? (It says Copyright 2007 David K. Faux). How exactly is it academic then?

Highly disputed study without mentioning ubious both from a historical perspective and "a genetic". Out of curiosity, David K. Faux currently post on this forum dna.forums.org (http://dna-forums.org/) where 90% of members already hit their study.

[Psychonaut]

I am too busy to actually read it, now, which is why I asked someone to sum up the arguments and clarify so I/we could avoid confusion.

His thesis seems absurd to me, so I think skepticism is warranted.

Furthermore, just because someone publishes something in a PDF (or an academic journal) doesn't per-se make it Academic. I'm sure the communist crank and pseudoscientist Lysenko was published in the journals of his own day.

I glanced at the PDF and found no reference to it being published in any journal. Not peer-reviewed? (It says Copyright 2007 David K. Faux). How exactly is it academic then?

Whatever man. Your skepticism may be well founded. You can question his person and his motives all you want, but if you don't have time to read his work, your commentaries and/or critiques will most likely be off the mark.

[SwordoftheVistula]

He's not saying the norse are mongoloid:


From the viewpoint of physical anthropology, the peoples of Mongolia and China during
the time periods under discussion may have born scant resemblance to the peoples living
in these regions today. Perhaps the most compelling evidence is the physical appearance
of the “Mummies of the Tarim Basin”. The native people of this region today are the
Kazaks and more particularly the Uygurs, who are a Turkic – speaking group with
Europoid and Mongoloid features (see later discussion in section on the Huns for more
about the Uugurs). They reside in the Chinese province of Xinjiang. At the time that the
Tarim Basin was settled about 2000 BC, the consensus is that they were and Indo –
European people who spoke Tocharian, which, according to linguists working with texts
dated from the 6th to the 8th Centuries, was “”Proto – Celtic” as were the people who
wrote them. Kimball – Davis, a well – know archaeologist of the region speaks also of
the grave goods found with the Tarim mummies (circa 2000 to 500 BC) including cloth
whose “patterns, colors, and weave mimic those of modern Scottish tartans” (p. 149).
Kimball - Davis reports that the physical features of these people who had arrived in the
Tarim Basin about 2000 BC are decidedly “European – like” (e.g., p. 144), including
their stature, up to 6 foot 6 inches in a male, and 6 feet tall in a woman; and “plaited
reddish – brown hair” (p. 151). These well preserved bodies from the Tarim Basin were
the subject of a Nova documentary entitled, “Mysterious Mummies of China” (p. 153).
Further evidence as to what these people may have looked like in life is found in on the
walls of caves in the nearby foothills west of Korla where the art shows men with blue or
green eyes with red or blond hair and beards and dressed in a manner similar to the
Sassanians of Iran. The inscriptions in the caves are in Tocharian. Descriptions of the
people residing in this region are available from Chinese sources as reported by Kimball
– Davis and others. The upshot is that the people being described, who were residing on
the steppes and known as Alans and Sarmatians (for example), appear to be mixed (with
some Mongolian features). However, it would appear that they might have been largely
indistinguishable from Scandinavians of today.


The main theme to this is that there was some sort of proto-norse tribe which resided in central asia, which are the ancestors of today's scandinavians, and also share a small amount of ancestry with some modern central asians. This sounds entirely plausible, and I don't see anything objectionable about it.


Similar thread here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4316&highlight=kurgans




Sorry, not converted.

You need Adobe Craprobat to read it. You can download it here:

http://get.adobe.com/reader

[Brännvin]

The main theme to this is that there was some sort of proto-norse tribe which resided in central asia, which are the ancestors of today's scandinavians, and also share a small amount of ancestry with some modern central asians. This sounds entirely plausible, and I don't see anything objectionable about it.


Wow! You are simply mixing facts, he points out the Viking age period (866 AD - 1066 AD) which is not entirely plausible within of a historical context
presented. David Faux is no geneticist, but a linguist. And their study was not posted in any genetic paper to begin with or and even an important linguistic paper also.

He only used its personal interpretation of genetic studies already submitted to develop their personal claim, which ideas is borrowed in many parts of the controversial work of the Norwegian anthropologist Thor Heyerdahl.
Indeed, the representation of the dominant male Haplogroups in Scandinavia does not sustain that theory.

[SuuT]

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=138936

[Edenrose]

His thesis seems absurd to me, so I think skepticism is warranted.



I also think it seems absurd. There have been several strange studies presented. I think one other found a link between the Berbers and the Scandinavians, and another one said that Ethiopians are the true Greeks, and that one was perfomed by Macedonians who are the "enemies" of Greeks.

Most of these studies seem to have some kind of underlying agenda. Southerners LOVE this comparatively new science, since it seems it can "prove" almost anything. I have seen this so many times now..In their dreams North Europeans are all mongols, and there is absolutely no black genes in South Europeans, so in fact Germanics are less racially pure than they are.

If fairy tales like this make them fell less insecure that is fine, just don't pretend that it is real or valid. We still have eyes to see with, and in my opinion what we can see and touch, and judge on the basis of common sense, is worth immeasurably more than biased genetic studies that probably without a problem could prove that your cousin is an orange from Brasil.


The more such ridiculous claims that I see on the basis of such studies, the more I am convinced that this genetic science is in its infancy, and also very easily corrupted, since it all depends on the honesty and the agenda of the people making the selection of people to be tested.


It's always important to know an author's biases:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/

He proclaims his pride in his partial American-Indian ancestry on his front page.



and then...




Deconstructing Europeanism fits with that motif, eh?

Indeed..


He's not saying the norse are mongoloid:




The main theme to this is that there was some sort of proto-norse tribe which resided in central asia, which are the ancestors of today's scandinavians, and also share a small amount of ancestry with some modern central asians. This sounds entirely plausible, and I don't see anything objectionable about it.




No, it does not sound entirely plausible. It sounds ridiculous, and yes, it is an attempt to make North Europeans some kind of half-Asians, since it fits the agenda of the one doing the "research".

The Nordics are the exact opposite to Asians. They are tall, have light hair and light eyes of another colour, they have another skull shape and entirely different facial features. I'd say they are as far as you can get from the Asians.

Anyone who posts ridiculous anti-Nordic "studies" here by biased researchers, and ask them to be taken seriously, seems to me to have an anti-Nordic agenda, which is against the rule of the site, if I am not mistaken.

[Brännvin]

No, it does not sound entirely plausible. It sound ridiculous and desperate, and yes, it is an attempt to make North Europeans some kind of half-Asians since it fits the agenda of the one doing the "research".

In whole agreement, David Faux is not even geneticist its work is based on personal claims and interpretation of some genetic studies. To begin with, if that study had some validity, it would be deconstructing all the Nordic Bronze age

Nordic Bronze Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age)

[SuuT]

It is important to first attack the article before the man. For example, one might argue that the intimation that Halogroup I originated outside of Europe (which I find to be the most glaring anomaly) is not viable - and then state why. One might also question his chronology of human migration paterns, or his interpretation thereof.

It would help to read it, too. Otherwise, we are ranting.


Not so incidentally, one can take all of the same information he utilises, and interpret it inversely: That Nordics made a descent into the south and east, leaving behind cultural, genetic, and idelogical footprints.

[Brännvin]

Not so incidentally, one can take all of the same information he utilises, and interpret it inversely: That Nordics made a descent into the south and east, leaving behind cultural, genetic, and idelogical footprints.

It could be if the study had any credibility to the scientific community, mainly within a genetic wise it does not sustain that theory.

[SuuT]

Well, I read that study and participated in three debates from different forums.

Would you be willing to enlighten your audience as to what you, in your debates, found - specifically - to be most problematic with Faux's thesis and larger interpretation of the data?


The author is a member of dna-forum.org (http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showforum=33) where I am also a member, he is a linguist, no geneticist.

Alright, so he is; but (ironically) without further detail to your assertion you are commiting a genetic fallacy: you are attacking the source rather than the material; where it came from, rather than what it says.



It could be if the study had any credibility to the scientific community,
mainly within a genetic wise, it does not sustain that theory. .

This again implies that either the data is wrong; or, his interpretation is. He's presented 30+ pages; you've just yelled at him:D.

[Edenrose]

Some things are not worth the time and effort to "debate". This is one such thing. It falls flat on its own stupidity. Anyone who has been to Scandinavia sees that we are far removed from any Asian admixture, more so than any other Europeans, as we have more Hallstatt Nordics here, and are taller and fairer than others. I could post photos of typical Scandinavians and photos of typical Asians and then anyone would see how utterly ridiculous such statements are.

In the far North there is some Sami admixture, and you can easily detect it visually. That is as far as this nonsense goes.

Sites like this one always attract their fare share of infiltrators who try to gain trust by posting normal and good comments at first, only to come up with "controversial" and provokative comments later on with an anti-Nordic agenda.

Just something to be generally wary of, I think, especially if someone keeps pushing the issue.

[Aemma]

Anyone who posts ridiculous anti-Nordic "studies" here by biased researchers, and ask them to be taken seriously, seems to me to have an anti-Nordic agenda, which is against the rule of the site, if I am not mistaken.

Edenrose :), we're a discussion board which is open to many issues to be, well, discussed. Please do not ascribe any intent or motivation to what people post for discussion since unfounded speculation doesn't offer anything constructive in the discussion process. You are new here I understand and are perhaps not used to our forum's culture, as it were, here at The Apricity. We as members try very hard for the most part to not make such value judgments since they stifle true discussion and debate. Thank you. :)

Cheers!...Aemma

[Brännvin]

Would you be willing to enlighten your audience as to what you, in your debates, found - specifically - to be most problematic with Faux's thesis and larger interpretation of the data?

Well, goes study the history of Scandinavia and their periods, especially the Nordic bronze age/Proto-Germanic culture, Vendel era and the Viking age period, all timeline origin of all Scandinavian germanic ethnicities. If amateur David Faux's study is correct, then everything should be rescript, alright?


The haplotype matches to Germany and Poland imply that I1a has arrived to the Nordic countries from the Southern Baltic Sea region, which is historically plausible. The coalescense age of the haplogroup is about 5000 years lower than the age of the earliest archaeological findings from the Northern Baltic Sea region, which suggests a Neolithic arrival.


It is plausible that both R1a1 and I1a were carried to the Baltic Sea region via the same Neolithic migrations from Central Europe.

Migration Waves to the Baltic Sea Region (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ahg/2008/00000072/00000003/art00007?crawler=true)
Source: Annals of Human Genetics, Volume 72, Number 3, May 2008 , pp. 337-348(12)



This again implies that either the data is wrong; or, his interpretation is. He's presented 30+ pages; you've just yelled at him:D.

Prove me with a scientifical academical source and I'll draw back my words. Second, the study is based on Thor Heyerdahl's theory, which is already extremely controversial within the academic circles.

[Edenrose]

Edenrose :), we're a discussion board which is open to many issues to be, well, discussed. Please do not ascribe any intent or motivation to what people post for discussion since unfounded speculation doesn't offer anything constructive in the discussion process. You are new here I understand and are perhaps not used to our forum's culture, as it were, here at The Apricity. We as members try very hard for the most part to not make such value judgments since they stifle true discussion and debate. Thank you. :)

Cheers!...Aemma

Well, I prefer to call a spade a spade, and when I see idiocy I can't pretend it isn't there. Call it a weakness, if you like. ;) I wasn't aware that I had signed on to an affiliate of Panf. Good luck with your site.

[SuuT]

Some things are not worth the time and effort to "debate". This is one such thing.

What do you think Faux's greatest errors are?


...Anyone who has been to Scandinavia sees that we are far removed from any Asian admixture, more so than any other Europeans, as we have more Hallstatt Nordics here, and are taller and fairer than others. I could post photos of typical Scandinavians and photos of typical Asians and then anyone would see how utterly ridiculous such statements are.

Do you understand the difference between genotype and phenotype/morphology?


In the far North there is some Sami admixture, and you can easily detect it visually. That is as far as this nonsense goes.

You can see a Halotype? That's one hel of a gift, EdenRose.


Sites like this one always attract their fare share of infiltrators who try to gain trust by posting normal and good comments at first, only to come up with "controversial" and provokative comments later on with an anti-Nordic agenda.

:thumb001: So, you intend on an introduction soon?:D


Just something to be generally wary of, I think, especially if someone keeps pushing the issue.

Push push push...:)


Honestly, you're really making a presumptuous and reactionary ass of yourself. It would be cordial of you to read the article beyond the abstract prior to anymore comments, as you are addressing virtually nothing that he provides argumentation for.

Somehow, I doubt that will happen though.:D

[Brännvin]

You do not need to stop posting here because it, Edenrose :(

How sad!

[Brännvin]

nvm..........

[SuuT]

Well, goes study the history of Scandinavia and their periods, especially the Nordic bronze age/Proto-Germanic culture, Vendel era and the Viking age period, all timeline origin of all Scandinavian germanic ethnicities. If amateur David Faux's study is correct, then everything should be rescript, alright?





Migration Waves to the Baltic Sea Region (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ahg/2008/00000072/00000003/art00007?crawler=true)
Source: Annals of Human Genetics, Volume 72, Number 3, May 2008 , pp. 337-348(12)



Prove me with a scientifical academical source and I'll draw back my words. Second, the study is based on Thor Heyerdahl's theory, which is already extremely controversial within the academic circles.

What I don't think you and the like are quite getting is that I have presented the article with complete and utter neutrality. I have nothing to prove or disprove; however, you - and another - have made quite a vehement rant against it that evinces either not having read it, or, have misunderstood it as it reads. It is not my (the messenger's) responsibility to counter your assertions. The onus (burden) is on you to back-up your own disagreement with Faux.

However much the article may present you (or me) as an immediate absurdity, the article remains quite scholarly and worthy of - at the least - disection. I should think that you could do this rather easily having debated the same one article so many times, no?

[Loki]

Well, I prefer to call a spade a spade, and when I see idiocy I can't pretend it isn't there. Call it a weakness, if you like. ;)


We don't mind that at all.



I wasn't aware that I had signed on to an affiliate of Panf.


You didn't, we are not affiliated with them.



Good luck with your site.

Thank you. :)

It is good to see a proud Swedish girl. Show us some genuine Swedish courtesy as well by posting an introduction. :thumb001:

[Brännvin]

What I don't think you and the like are quite getting is that I have presented the article with complete and utter neutrality.

Oh ok! :rolleyes: Neutrality? Give me break!

That particular study posted, it was presented by only one author (where the end of the study he makes it clear), not by a scientific community, a credible university or even a company of medical genetic researchers. Cannot you see it? Are you blind?

How can I interpret this as neutral?



I have nothing to prove or disprove; however, you - and another - have made quite a vehement rant against it that evinces either not having read it, or, have misunderstood it as it reads.

Not exactly what you said when opening the thread. Quit trolling.



It is not my (the messenger's) responsibility to counter your assertions. The onus (burden) is on you to back-up your own disagreement with Faux.

David F. Faux's amateur paper already been refuted by credible modern genetic studies or never even had any credibility at all, simple why we know about the main Haplogroups in Scandinavia don't support this theory. If you still have doubt the google is the your friend, or better it check the site of plosone.org (http://www.plosone.org/home.action).

If not, show me a credible genetic study where supports Faux's claim? And as I said I'll draw back all my words.



However much the article may present you (or me) as an immediate absurdity, the article remains quite scholarly and worthy of - at the least - disection.

Are you kidding me?

Serious and accepted genetic studies, presented by a group of respected researchers, are like this;
_________

Genome-Wide Analysis of Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms Uncovers Population Structure in Northern Europe (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003519)

Source: 1 Department of Medical Genetics, University of Helsinki, Helsinki, Finland, 2 Finnish Genome Center, Institute for Molecular Medicine Finland, University of Helsinki, Helsinki, Finland, 3 Department of Biosciences and Nutrition, Karolinska Institutet, and Clinical Research Centre, Karolinska University Hospital, Huddinge, Sweden, 4 Department of Neurology, Umeå University Hospital, University of Umeå, Umeå, Sweden, 5 Popgen Biobank, Institute for Clinical Molecular Biology, Christian-Albrechts-University, Kiel, Germany, 6 Finnish Red Cross Blood Transfusion Center, Helsinki, Finland, 7 Department of Medical Genetics, University of Turku, Turku, Finland, 8 Department of General Internal Medicine, Institute for Clinical Molecular Biology, Christian-Albrechts-University, Kiel, Germany, 9 Folkhälsan Institute of Genetics, Biomedicum Helsinki, Helsinki, Finland


In this study, we analysed almost 250,000 SNPs from a total of 945 samples from Eastern and Western Finland, Sweden, Northern Germany and Great Britain complemented with HapMap data. Small but statistically significant differences were observed between the European populations (FST = 0.0040, p<10−4), also between Eastern and Western Finland (FST = 0.0032, p<10−3).



The Germans and British were less differentiated than the Swedes, Western Finns and especially the Eastern Finns who also showed other signs of genetic drift. This is likely caused by the later founding of the northern populations, together with subsequent founder and bottleneck effects, and a smaller population size.


The population history of Northern Europe has been reviewed earlier by several authors. The settlement of the Baltic Sea region advanced rapidly after the Ice Age, beginning about 14,000 BC in Northern Germany and 10,000 BC in Finland. All the populations have their roots mainly in Central Europe.


We then compared the numbers to the null hypothesis that all the five populations stem from the same proto-European population (approximated by the CEU frequencies) from which they have subsequently diverged via genetic drift in the absence of admixture.


___________


Migration Waves to the Baltic Sea Region (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ahg/2008/00000072/00000003/art00007?crawler=true)
Source: Annals of Human Genetics, Volume 72, Number 3, May 2008 , pp. 337-348(12)


The haplotype matches to Germany and Poland imply that I1a has arrived to the Nordic countries from the Southern Baltic Sea region, which is historically plausible.


It is plausible that both R1a1 and I1a were carried to the Baltic Sea region via the same Neolithic migrations from Central Europe.

________




I should think that you could do this rather easily having debated the same one article so many times, no?

Oh yeah! Scandinavians are half mongoloids as you claim along with the your credible paper. :rolleyes:

Check the genetic distance between populations!

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/FSTHGDP8bunch-uprecalculaterearr-1.gif
http://i40.tinypic.com/11jac80.gif

Or check this latest important study;
Genetic Structure of Europeans: A View from the North–East (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0005472)
Mari Nelis et al
http://i003.radikal.ru/0905/bd/a53eac118048.jpg

________

[Loki]

If this is possible I will not post here anymore!

It is not possible Balder, it's just a huge misunderstanding. :) I've sent you a pm. Please discuss the matter with me and Foxie, I think a fall-out because of this is very unnecessary. I really enjoy your posts and presence on Apricity.

This site is definitely not anti-Nordic, and we would never support any such agendas.

[Æmeric]

Where Central Asians always Mongolid? Get a grip people. I find it hard to believe that the very racially conscious Norwegian Suut has an agenda to put the racially superior Scandinavian folk on the same level as Nordish-Americans with minor Amerindian admixture.;)

[Psychonaut]

Where Central Asians always Mongolid? Get a grip people.

Exactamundo! Ever since I took my first anthropology class I've assumed that it was common knowledge amongst educated people that the Indo-Europeans originated somewhere in Central Asia. The distribution patterns of R1a1 definitely seem to show this. Hell, at 12 markers, I've got matches in India and Xinjiang that are only six steps away. That doesn't make me a "Mongoloid," it just means that I share a common ancestor a few thousand years ago with people who now inhabit Western China.

[Vulpix]

The OP (who happens to be of Norwegian descent) posted this study not to push an alleged anti-Nordic agenda of his own but as an invitation to critically discuss, evaluate and dissect the David Faux study. In other words, as an exercise in critical thinking. It's all too easy to say a study is complete BS, but if you are able to point out the specific flaws in it (aka debunking) it gives you so much more credit.

In our rules we state that we do not allow anti-Nordic rhetoric. In practical terms this means we will punish virulent anti-Nordic hostility as an end in itself; however, there is no sound reason to suppress open critical debate of studies that do not subscribe to that world view. Suppressing debate will turn a forum into an echo-chamber which is anything but intellectually stimulating.

Let me refer you to the following quote:


"When I read the literature, I'm not reading it to find proof like a textbook. I'm reading to get ideas. So even if something is wrong with the paper, if they have the kernel of a novel idea, that's something to think about," he says.

Source: "Most scientific papers are probably wrong", http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7915
Yes, I can hear you say that the equation Scandinavians = mongoloids is nothing new, and it well isn't. Nevertheless, what this quote tries to express is the most mature and rewarding approach towards scientific (and pseudo-scientific!) research.

[Ulex]

Don't leave us, Balder and Edenrose! I agree with you that the thesis presented in this work is ridiculous, and Balder is pointing out a significant fact, when he says that the thesis contradicts too many known facts to be taken seriously. This amateur tries to shake the world and ignite a scientific revolution by rejecting most known facts, all the while he is referring to the Norwegian adventurer Thor Heyerdal! Come on guys... You are giving this amateur too much attention, goddammit!

Suut started this discussion looking for academic viewpoints, but it seems to me that he draws back everytime he gets what he is looking for. Balder points out exactly the weak (if not ridiculous) spots in the thesis, and I still need to see a reply on the same level from Suut. Somehow I doubt we will have it.

But don't go, Edenrose and Balder, because of the work of an amateur scientist and Suut's allegations. You don't need to befriend either of them.

By the way, I will send both of you a friend request, and I sincerely hope we will be able to get to know eachother better here.

[SuuT]

Baldr,

Thank you for the data! While it is not compared and contrasted with Faux's, It is definately a step in the right direction, and a valuable tool for any reader of the article and the sections to which your data corresponds.

It (both your recent input, as well as Faux's analysis) is complex subject matter: I am a fairly intelligent man, but some of it really strains the limits of my comprehension. With that said, and not to sound arrogant, it must certainly strain the limits of others who are new to the discipline. My objective, as...an inertial observer, if you will, was/is to pull-out from the knowledgable of this forum an explicative procession that someone completely un-knowledgeable on the subject matter would be able to follow with relative ease.

Something a wise brother once said to me: "We must always be prepared to have our foundations shaken. At whatever the cost." - And look what has happened! - We have a real-deal discussion going on now, on many different levels!:) If for nothing else, dialogue is indispensible to this end.


But perhaps I deserve my Hemlock for corrupting the youth of The Apricity...;)



...and Balder is pointing out a significant fact, when he says that the thesis contradicts too many known facts to be taken seriously. ...

If that were/is so, all one has to do is lay-out the 'facts'. If they speak so very loudly for themself, that is.


Suut started this discussion looking for academic viewpoints,

Well, that is one of the things that I expected to happen, yes.:)


but it seems to me that he draws back everytime he gets what he is looking for.

Actually, I have 'leaned-in' each time.


Balder points out exactly the weak (if not ridiculous) spots in the thesis, and I still need to see a reply on the same level from Suut.

In a very loose fashion, that he now seems to be slowly tightening-up.

And, I have not put my horse in the race: why is this so difficult to see? - Someone should be "disinterested".


Somehow I doubt we will have it.

Would you like for me to position myself as Faux's advocate? I suppose I could think about doing that if you really do.


But don't go, Edenrose and Balder,

I don't want them to go either. Baldr, in particular, seems to be very knowledgable on the subject matter, and I think would prove an invaluable resourse to the Forum.


An aside: Here are a couple pictures of relatives to show my secret and insideous anti-nordic motivations:

Thumbnail One: Grandpa
Thumbnail Two: My oldest daughter

(Please delete them after a few days, if you would)

[Edenrose]

We don't mind that at all.



You didn't, we are not affiliated with them.



Thank you. :)

It is good to see a proud Swedish girl. Show us some genuine Swedish courtesy as well by posting an introduction. :thumb001:

I'm not a "proud Swedish girl". You can skip the condescending tone. Are you a proud South African boy? I mean, that is where you are actually from.


You say this site is not anti-Nordic but this thread proves it is, and I found you on Stirpes, a site well-known for its hostility towards Nordics where you joined after you clashed with Skadi, the Germanic forum.

The owner of Stirpes was also a malcontent from Skadi so both your sites do have a motive to be anti-Germanic. I think this thread needs to be veiwed in that context.


On Stirpes you even mock this site, calling it ApeCity. The actual link to this site is called "Join us at the ApeCity forums". Next to it there is an icon of a hand patting a head. Your members here will be delighted to see what you really think of the site.




An aside: Here are a couple pictures of relatives to show my secret and insideous anti-nordic motivations:

Thumbnail One: Grandpa
Thumbnail Two: My oldest daughter

(Please delete them after a few days, if you would)

Now when I see the photos of your family (assuming it is) I understand where what your motive is. They do not look like typical Norwegians, and both probably have some kind of asian/Uralic admixture.

Unfortunately for you, however, this is not something typical for Scandinavia. This is a case of your wanting to adjust Scandinavian ethnic history so it fits with your own family history.

Just becasue there is asian admixture in your family doesn't mean you can rewrite history, using someone who is not taken seriously in anthropology circles. Scandinavians usually look different from your family members, so I understand it bugs you.



In our rules we state that we do not allow anti-Nordic rhetoric. In practical terms this means we will punish virulent anti-Nordic hostility o-scientific!)

I see..so now it has to be "virulent anti-Nordic hostility". Then you will have to rewrite your own rules, which you just did.


Apricity rules:

"This is a board for people of European heritage. We will not tolerate: pro-multiculturalism, pro-miscegenation, anti-Germanic or anti-Nordic views. VIEWS, IDEAS, and CONRIBUTIONS that are hostile to Europeans or their HERITAGE are not permitted."


As for debate..one could always stand in front of a dog turd and "debate" it. It will still be a dog turd, though.

[Loki]

Ok I vote ban, she's clearly an idiot.

[Beorn]

Agreed. Go back to Skadi.

[Loki]

I'm not a "proud Swedish girl". You can skip the condescending tone. Are you a proud South African boy? I mean, that is where you are actually from.


You say this site is not anti-Nordic but this thread proves it is, and I found you on Stirpes, a site well-known for its hostility towards Nordics where you joined after you clashed with Skadi, the Germanic forum.

The owner of Stirpes was also a malcontent from Skadi so both your sites do have a motive to be anti-Germanic. I think this thread needs to be veiwed in that context.


On Stirpes you even mock this site, calling it ApeCity. The actual link to this site is called "Join us at the ApeCity forums". Next to it there is an icon of a hand patting a head. Your members here will be delighted to see what you really think of the site.

Far from being condescending, I was offering you an olive branch -- which you smacked back in my face. You're rude, of sub-standard intelligence and completely lacking in sense of humour (re: ApeCity).

What you think of this site is absolutely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Nobody cares what a young whippersnapper thinks. Look up that word, it's an apt description of you.

[Aemma]

Ok I vote ban, she's clearly an idiot.

I second the motion.

Motion carried?

[Ladejarlen]

Agreed. Go back to Skadi.

What does Skadi got to do with anything? Get a grip

[Beorn]

What does Skadi got to do with anything? Get a grip

It's the site she mounts her attacks from. Perhaps you as a moderator would have known that.

[SuuT]

blah blah blah...

They're not my family and I'm actually a black Jew from the Heilongjiang province in China and my I1a Halotype paperwork is forged, too.

In fact we all are black Jews from the Heilongjiang province in China, here at ApeCity. It's a big plot. We all live together in a one-room tenement with a thatch roof. You'll be glad to know that we are plumb out of food and will be boiling the server with cat tails and dog innards for dinner.

Just in case the server servives the chow-down, however, you might just want to leave us to our evil plot to take-over the internet.

Which means go away now.

[Allenson]

Now when I see the photos of your family (assuming it is) I understand where what your motive is. They do not look like typical Norwegians, and both probably have some kind of asian/Uralic admixture.

There is a Uralish tinge to SuuT's grandfather's phenotype but I see nothing of this sort in his daughter's appearance.

I'm no expert, by any means, but I've seen this look in many Scandinavians and I don't think it's really anything to get alarmed at. The skeletal evidence of paleolithic Europe has many examples of individuals with wide malars, wide gonials, oblique eye axes & other "Asiatic" or "Eskimid" features. Let's not forget that these were the first folks to colonize the thawing lands as the glaciers retreated and likely certain physical specializations developed.

Their lifestyles were very much geared toward a recent post-glacial landscape and they likely followed the glaciers as they retreated northward--hence, they moved from southern to central and finally to northern Europe/Asia where there descendents live today amongst the likes of the Saami and other nomadic tribes further east across Siberia.

Anyhoo....

[Brännvin]

The OP (who happens to be of Norwegian descent) posted this study not to push an alleged anti-Nordic agenda of his own but as an invitation to critically discuss, evaluate and dissect the David Faux study.
From the OP;

***(This is very lengthy and complex, but it is also very controversial [or perhaps not] and worth the read)

Excuse me, discuss an already proved pseudo-study and also biased by only an author is a waste of time and energy, especially when you are dealing with genetic, history and archeology a certain group of ethnicities and culture.

The member Jamt posted on this forum credible academical studies about Scandinavia where nobody gave a damn!


Ok I vote ban, she's clearly an idiot.

Ban why?

Sorry, she is not an idiot. Quite smart enough to have argued against this since the beginning, when the majority of the board supported it as credible.

[Loki]

Ban why?

Sorry, she is not an idiot. Quite smart enough to have argued against this since the beginning, when the majority of the board supported it as credible.

Alright let's see ... she barges in, refuses to post an introduction, and starts to insult this website, valued members and admins. Even after we were kind and forgiving towards her, she just turned up the ratchet a little further. This girlie is not interested in being a valued forum member -- instead she is intent on showing the world just how inconsiderate, ignorant and dumb she is. And you call her smart? I don't care what people's opinions on articles or threads are. But if they want to be members of this forum they need to show a certain amount of courtesy and respect towards members and the owners. Why should we allow her here to spurt her nonsense? The only impression she gives is bad vibes. She exudes ignorance and idiocy. This is not our first glimpse of her "intelligence". She also posts on Skadi as "Freja_se". Even there she causes fights. My guess is that she is not even Swedish, maybe even a non-white immigrant to Sweden who is attempting to make Swedes look bad.

As for you, Balder -- I am more disappointed in you than I am in her. I was beginning to enjoy your posts and presence on this forum, but my image of you has been a bit shattered. :( You did not even reply to the kind pm I sent you. Oh well, this forum is not here to beg people to come here and post. We have enough decent members and we are already a vibrant, functioning online community of fine, intelligent and noble members. And I am not exaggerating. We are also very open to newcomers, and we welcome new members with open arms. However we will not accept and tolerate blatant hostility towards this forum and its valued members. Not even from Swedes.

[Brännvin]

Very, very sad what happened, at the moment when I was enjoying the forum, adms, mods and members, yes it is a nice community.

About her, judging by the context as she came here to contest against a pseudo-study done by an obscure American author distorting the whole history of the Scandinavians, and still posted by a member of supposedly Norwegian origin in an arrogant tone arguing all the time as if the study within a broad genetic, archaeological and historical was something credible when in fact it is not, I honestly can not judge it.

Today she was rude, idiot, well certainly, but yesterday she was mocked (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60209&postcount=28) by the member SuuT when she was simply arguing against it.

By the way the member SuuT not replied my post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60373&postcount=33), since he wants a debate inside the reality I'm waiting..

[RoyBatty]

I'm not a "proud Swedish girl". You can skip the condescending tone. Are you a proud South African boy? I mean, that is where you are actually from.


"Condescending" tone? It wasn't condescending, it was an attempt to start fresh in case there were any misunderstandings. Are you an angry young lady? :D



You say this site is not anti-Nordic but this thread proves it is, and I found you on Stirpes, a site well-known for its hostility towards Nordics where you joined after you clashed with Skadi, the Germanic forum.


What is your definition of being "Nordic" and what hostile actions are being waged from here? Some specific examples if you don't mind. :confused:



The owner of Stirpes was also a malcontent from Skadi so both your sites do have a motive to be anti-Germanic. I think this thread needs to be veiwed in that context.


Are you sure you're living in the real world?



On Stirpes you even mock this site, calling it ApeCity. The actual link to this site is called "Join us at the ApeCity forums". Next to it there is an icon of a hand patting a head. Your members here will be delighted to see what you really think of the site.


I suppose one could take one's self terribly seriously all the time and sprout loads of pseudo-intellectual waffle with one's peers while trying to "outdo" one another in "credibility" competitions but some people probably also enjoy a bit of humour to balance their life a bit. I'm not familiar with the incident, forum and post you mentioned but it sounds like lighthearted self-deprecating humour as opposed to an insidious and hidden agenda to subvert the "Nords" :)



As for debate..one could always stand in front of a dog turd and "debate" it. It will still be a dog turd, though.

The difference between a one-dimensional spambot and a person with insight is that the spambot will scream slogans while the other person will take the time to investigate, contemplate, debate and discuss a particular issue in order to gain an understanding of it and to improve their general knowledge about the topic and the world at large.

It seems you're still stuck in reverse gear and won't be progressing beyond the cheerleading stage........... too bad.


Very, very sad what happened, at the moment when I was enjoying the forum, adms, mods and members, yes it is a nice community.

About her, judging by the context as she came here to contest against a pseudo-study done by an obscure American author distorting the whole history of the Scandinavians, and still posted by a member of supposedly Norwegian origin in an arrogant tone arguing all the time as if the study within a broad genetic, archaeological and historical was something credible when in fact it is not, I honestly can not judge it.

Today she was rude, idiot, well certainly, but yesterday she was mocked (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60209&postcount=28) by the member SuuT when she was simply arguing against it.

By the way the member SuuT not replied my post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60373&postcount=33), since he wants a debate inside the reality I'm waiting..

Mate don't worry about it.

It's a storm in a teacup and nothing more significant than a gayyy "handbagging". In the greater scheme of things a childish dustup like this just isn't important enough to waste time on. One can't please everybody ;)

[Jarl]

Thumbnail Two: My oldest daughter

Dammit! :thumb001: This is job well done, SuuT! This is heritage preservation in practice. There is nothing else which the cause of keeping your nation alive would benefit more from. And sure she's got a fit father who will look after her! ;)

My congrats!

[Loki]

Very, very sad what happened, at the moment when I was enjoying the forum, adms, mods and members, yes it is a nice community.


And you are still a part of it, Balder, if you so wish. :)

You may not know SuuT very well, but many of us know him since years ago from Skadi. I do not think at any time did he promote anti-Nordic or anti-Scandinavian ideas. The language he uses is creative and poetic, he always intrigues. But SuuT is not a troll or a bad guy. I think you two just got off on a bad start.

It is easy to get angry at someone's postings on the internet ... I know I have myself done that many times; often I was not proud of it afterwards. Words said in anger are often regretted later, when people cool down and have time to mull over what actually happened. Anger and defensiveness sometimes clouds judgement. I want to assure you of one thing here: the vast majority of Apricity members (and all the staff) are very much supportive of Scandinavian people, and would love it to see their heritage lifted up and promoted. In other words, we are on your side. :)



By the way the member SuuT not replied my post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60373&postcount=33), since he wants a debate inside the reality I'm waiting..

I personally did not read the entire article that was posted, but it can be debated (and refuted, if necessary and possible) via the usual debating sparring exchanges. That is absolutely cool. :thumb001:

[SuuT]

...she was rude, idiot, well certainly, but yesterday she was mocked (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60209&postcount=28) by the member SuuT when she was simply arguing against it...

She never made an argument.


By the way the member SuuT not replied my post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60373&postcount=33), since he wants a debate inside the reality I'm waiting..

You still don't get it. If you have a debate to make, debate the material presented. I am not Faux's advocate and this has been explained ad nauseum.


I am (generally) terribly slow to anger, epsecially in internet situation; but, I have absorbed quite enough: my integrity has been attacked, my lineage, my family; my dead grandfather and child have been personally attacked; and I have been exceedingly patient and delicate with an apparent inability on your behalf to read.

Thread's all yours.

[Æmeric]

Ok I vote ban, she's clearly an idiot.

No! The fun has just started.:fcinema:





Now when I see the photos of your family (assuming it is) I understand where what your motive is. They do not look like typical Norwegians, and both probably have some kind of asian/Uralic admixture.

Unfortunately for you, however, this is not something typical for Scandinavia. This is a case of your wanting to adjust Scandinavian ethnic history so it fits with your own family history.

Just becasue there is asian admixture in your family doesn't mean you can rewrite history, using someone who is not taken seriously in anthropology circles. Scandinavians usually look different from your family members, so I understand it bugs you.

What does the typical Scandinavian look like? Do they look like Vargtand?

[Aemma]

No! The fun has just started.:fcinema:

Oh brother! :rolleyes:



What does the typical Scandinavian look like? Do they look like Vargtand?

Yes, I myself have always wondered if they are a naturally shirtless people. :D

[Sol Invictus]

(Post deleted for unnecessary flaming towards player-haters.)

[Brännvin]

She never made an argument.

Yes she did.

After it, you immediately accused her of not having read the study, which honestly I found it a bit arrogant, since you could not be sure that.



You still don't get it. If you have a debate to make, debate the material presented. I am not Faux's advocate and this has been explained ad nauseum.

I answered your question quite as well with credible and founded sources.

Like gentleman you owe me an answer.




Thread's all yours.

Oh no, thanks!

[Óttar]

Atilla was called Atli in the Volsung saga, and some Germanic warriors were buried with Hunnish clothing. Not to mention Central Asia is the origin of three races namely: Europeans, Asians and Native Americans.

So it wouldn't surprise me.

[Brännvin]

Atilla was called Atli in the Volsung saga, and some Germanic warriors were buried with Hunnish clothing. Not to mention Central Asia is the origin of three races namely: Europeans, Asians and Native Americans.

So it wouldn't surprise me.

Don't sounds contradictory to the historical context presented by the obscure american author?

Viking-era Norse to Central Asia: An Assessment

During the Viking era, nobody migrated to Scandinavia, but the opposite was the case.

[SwordoftheVistula]

It's hard to make out exactly what this guy is proposing without maps, but I don't see how this is some kind of impossible fantasy. I'm generally skeptical of associated widely disparate groups just because some words sound similar, but that doesn't mean it's not true either.

Easily possible that another group from the 'huns' area through or to the northeast of the 'vandals' area and crosses the Baltic up into Scandinavia:

http://www.geography.uc.edu/~weisner/courses/216/romepics/406ad.jpg

Along the lines of this:
http://www.gedevasen.dk/Pict/Herulerrute.gif

Map of 1 AD showing the 'Dingling' tribes as well as the Tocharians

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Asia_001ad.jpg/800px-Asia_001ad.jpg

Map from 323 BC showing Tocharians further east:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Asia_323bc.jpg


Another study from Linzi in eastern China (well west of the Tocharian finds) showing results which match up with the theory from the OP:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/17/9/1396

To examine temporal changes in population genetic structure, we compared the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences of three populations that lived in the same location, Linzi, China, in different periods: 2,500 years ago (the Spring–Autumn era), 2,000 years ago (the Han era), and the present day. Two indices were used to compare the genetic differences: the frequency distributions of the radiating haplotype groups and the genetic distances among the populations. The results indicate that the genetic backgrounds of the three populations are distinct from each other. Inconsistent with the geographical distribution, the 2,500-year-old Linzi population showed greater genetic similarity to present-day European populations than to present-day east Asian populations. The 2,000-year-old Linzi population had features that were intermediate between the present-day European/2,500-year-old Linzi populations and the present-day east Asian populations. These relationships suggest the occurrence of drastic spatiotemporal changes in the genetic structure of Chinese people during the past 2,500 years.

Another article on the Tocharians:

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/todaysfeatures/2005/April/todaysfeatures_April37.xml&section=todaysfeatures


“My research has shown that in the second millennium BC, the oldest mummies, like the Loulan Beauty, were the earliest settlers in the Tarim Basin.

“From the evidence available, we have found that during the first 1,000 years after the Loulan Beauty, the only settlers in the Tarim Basin were Caucasoid.”

East Asian peoples only began showing up in the eastern portions of the Tarim Basin about 3,000 years ago, Mair said, while the Uighur peoples arrived after the collapse of the Orkon Uighur Kingdom, largely based in modern day Mongolia, around the year 842.

“Modern DNA and ancient DNA show that Uighurs, Kazaks, Krygyzs, the peoples of Central Asia are all mixed Caucasian and East Asian. The modern and ancient DNA tell the same story,” he said.

So not at all unlikely that central Asia was dominated by these people up until 1500-2000 years ago, and that as the oriental people advanced through eastern Asia and then pushed westwards, they assimilated some of these people, and others fled westwards, one branch of which traveled to Scandinavia and was able to assume a leadership role.

[SuuT]

There is a Uralish tinge to SuuT's grandfather's phenotype but I see nothing of this sort in his daughter's appearance.

I wasn't going to respond to this as I thought that it might throw the thread off-kilter, but I think that its a good opportunity to discuss Scandinavian morphology, which loosely enters the orbit of what the thread has become.

I believe you and I (if I recall) had a very general discussion about this at Skadi back in - Ohhhhhhhh...what was it - 1778, I think.

With respect, there is no such thing as a Uralid "tinge". Especially taking into consideration the phenotypic chasm between highly 'harmonious' U.P. types, (DaloFaelid, West Baltid) Nordids, their admixtures, and Uralids (cf. plate provided in thumbnail of Uralid [proper] as well as here http://anthroforum.com/showthread.php?t=2281).

The difference is so drastic that it's akin to saying "Negrid tinge" or "Sinid tinge".


...certain physical specializations developed.

You have hit the nail on the head, here, though. It is important to understand the full extent of the Coonian principle of "Incipiency", however.

The lack of prominent Epicanthic Folds coupled with an oblique eye axis does not a Uralid make; and, compressed/squared gonial angles (etc.) are common fare to upper Paleolithic survivors in both southern and northern Cro-magnids/oids.

Equally, I recall many a discussion at Skadi that introduced the idea that Tydals (Tydal typen) were Lappid/oid influenced due to a high frequency of oblique eye axes. This is untenable under superficial scrutiny: Paleo-Tydals (Paleo-Atlatid subgrouping) have unremarkable Halotype as well as mtDNA connection to anything outside of the modern borders Europe - Indeed, there is no definitive Cline.

In addition, a general lacking of prominent Epicanthic Folds occurs in high frequency amongst the Dutch, as well as French females (quite nearly across the entire spectrum of sub-races existing in modern French populations).


And just so that certain Swedish kuksugare rövhål bög can say that I am simply insecure about my Asiatic admixture, I will now comment about my granda with what has already been said.


At 6' 6", 235#, there is no arguable Borrealisation. Further: it is obvious to everyone and anyone who has read the applicable primary texts that he is a SkandoNordid exemplar with an abberant eye axis.

Equally, my daughter is DaloNordid, favouring a Faelish relief.

[Jamt]

And just so that certain Swedish kuksugare rövhål bög can say that I am simply insecure about my Asiatic admixture, I will now comment about my granda with what has already been said.



You are not simply insecure Suut.
You are a busted Fjällapa.

[SuuT]

You are not simply insecure Suut.
You are a busted Fjällapa.

Yup. One big fake.

[Osweo]

Ah, where is Oswiu? I feel like getting a good brow beating today!

:p:thumb001: It's on its way....

(It's delightful to have made an impression! :D)


I downloaded it, and am flipping through...

I can already say that this is the sort of depressing thing that we get when people get too excited about genetics. Especially the Y chrom and Mito stuff. It's quite possible for a man to have an ancient Hunnic warrior for his father's father's father's.... father, and a Nubian slave girl for his mother's mother's mother's... mother, and NOT be in the slightest Mongoloid or Negroid, and yet these sources of information will tell him nothing else!


So.... I skim thru and read this:

Scythian (Siberian tribal peoples from south central Asia for whom the horse was paramount) influences.
:twitch00:
Oh dear...

How are they from 'south central Asia'? :stop00010:
Is it not in fact more sensible to view them as a branch of displaced east central European? :tsk:
How are they 'Siberian'? This is absurd. The Great Steppe and Siberia are two different things. Typical idiocy of a parochial westerner who barely even bothers to glance at an atlas before making these sort of statements... :disapproving

So the Altai have a lot of this genetic material? What a non-surprise. They're a classic mix. Their history and prehistory of absorption of western and eastern relic peoples is well known. There are dead people dug up there every now and then who look far more 'Viking' than I! :p


BUT I haven't properly read it yet... so 'to be continued'... :wink

[Osweo]

In fact we all are black Jews from the Heilongjiang province in China, here at ApeCity. It's a big plot. We all live together in a one-room tenement with a thatch roof. You'll be glad to know that we are plumb out of food and will be boiling the server with cat tails and dog innards for dinner.
It's a shame we're not, actually. Sounds kind of fun... :(


Right, recap. Genetic exchange with Iranid central Asia would just be adding more of the same to Scandinavian blood. There would be little difference 'before' and 'after' any supposed Scythian colonisation of Scandinavia. The Scythians and their cousins only introduced Central European blood to Asia. They will have mixed a little with the natives, but the relevant haplogroups would have reached Scandinavia via Finnic peoples anyway. There is no need to suppose such a migration to explain the genetics of the Northlands.

Aesir - Azerbaijan - Azov is just so much endlessly repeated rubbish.

This Faux (pas?) character splashes about all over the ancient history and prehistory of Eurasia from Chinggis to Chernyakhov. He can't really make up his mind What he's proposing. It's not much bbetter than ramblings in parts.

Why does he spend SO much time discussing side issues like Snorri's reliability. This can be referenced without repeating it all. He's just padding it.

Foreign objects in barrows were part of the standard repertoire for impressive burials. Sutton Hoo in England has Greek stuff, Swedish style objects, Celtic metal work. There is no 'proof' for migrations of these people. The nomads' 'Animal Style' undoubtedly had some effect on Germanic art, but I'd place this at an earlier period than 'just prior to the Viking Age' and would still not insist on migrations to explain its spread.

[Osweo]

Anyone else think Suut's Grandad looks like a grown up version of that good old Dutch member Ragnar Thorsson or whatever he used to call himself? Where is he, anyway? He was a good laugh. That miserable bloody Edenrose could have learnt a thing or two from him! :D

[Osweo]

'to be continued'... :wink

This is probably superfluous now, but here we go - my comments in capitals;

************
There is general agreement that by 8000 BC the retreat of the glaciers had left most of Scandinavia open for human settlement; that there has likely been continuous settlement in Norway and Sweden since this time.
It is generally accepted that descendants of these hunter – gatherers from three southern European glacial refugia ultimately became the Scandinavian Vikings circa 800 AD. What has not been adequately addressed is the evidence demonstrating that there was a significant
SIGNIFICANT HOW? NOT LINGUISTICALLY, ONOMASTICALLY, CULTURALLY…
movement of people, as well as their horses
WERE THERE NOT HORSES IN CENTRAL AND NORTHERN EUROPE PRIOR TO THIS? DID NOT THE CELTS HAVE A HORSE GODDESS EPONA?
and cultural traditions,
LIKE WHAT?
from Central Asia to Scandinavia in the years immediately prior to the Viking - Era.
WHY THEN?
Many or most explorations of the matter have assumed that trade explains the appearance of all the Central Asian finds in Scandinavia.
FAIR ENOUGH.
What this approach fails to explain is the presence of Scandinavians with DNA signatures that are not European, but which bear a direct link to the Caucasus Mountain and Central Asian regions.
DIRECT IS A STUPID WORD TO USE HERE. CIRCUITOUS, INDIRECT, ANCIENT AND REMOTE WOULD BE MORE APPROPRIATE.
It is also argued here that it was this population shift and consequent cultural upheavals that sparked the Scandinavian expansions in the years to follow.
THE MOST APPALLINGLY PRIMITIVE EXPLANATION I’VE YET HEARD FOR THE GROWTH IN NORSE EXTERNAL CONTACTS AFTER 800 AD!
What makes the present study entirely different from those who have addressed (often somewhat controversially) this matter is the reliance on Y chromosome genetic evidence.
A MERE GIMMICK. HEYERDAHL WOULD HAVE USED IT HIMSELF, HAD IT BEEN AVAILABLE BACK IN THE DAY, AND NOT MADE HIS FANTASIES ANY MORE WATERTIGHT.
Historical, linguistic, archaeological data sources are used to support the Central Asian migration hypothesis. The focus of the present study is to cross – validate these other sources of evidence by analyzing the results of testing of the non – recombining part of the Y chromosome (NRY). This male lineage marker is known for its power as a tool in the exploration of human population movements. In this case it is shown that not only did human groups migrate from Central Asia to Scandinavia, but in addition genetic evidence concludes that the horses so important in Scandinavian life also originated in Mongolia, and were brought to Scandinavia at approximately the same time as the proposed migration of humans.
OR ARE THE MONGOLIAN HORSES SIMPLY COUSINS OF THESE? WHY IS ONE REMOTE END OF A RANGE SUPPOSED TO BE THE ORIGINAL HOMELAND? HOW DOES HE DETERMINE THE ANCIENCY OF GENES IN A PARTICULAR REGION? ARE WE DEALING WITH GENES OF LONG DEAD EXCAVATED HORSES? NO!
It is argued that these people with a long history of using horses and ships to extract wealth and territory from opponents are the most likely candidates for the leaders of those who founded the Norse colonies such as the Shetland Islands circa 800AD and Iceland circa 870AD.
WE KNOW THE NAMES OF THESE MEN. THEY ARE SWEDES, DANES AND NORWEGIANS. NOWT FOREIGN ABOUT THEM WHATSOEVER.
The most important contribution
GIMMICK! :p
of the present study is to use Y-DNA genetic databases with samples scattered from Mongolia to Britain to show the continuity of genetic marker
patterns from the Shetland Islands and other Norse colonies to groups such as the Altai of Central Asia, and the Azeri of Azerbaijan, and the lack of similarity of this subset of the Scandinavian population to local Eastern Europeans
LOCAL MEANS WHAT? BOREAL FINNICS? LINGUISTIC DIFFERENCES SHOULD MAKE US SUSPECT SUCH A ‘GAP’ ANYWAY, IN CONTRAST WITH THE MORE CONNECTED INTERFLOW OF THE MORE SOUTHERN REGIONS OF THE INDOEUROPEAN PEOPLES, FROM THE ATLANTIC TO THE CAUCASUS AND ALTAI…
Prologue
the data emerging out of the Shetland Islands Y-DNA Surname Project began to paint a picture of an Asian presence within the Norse population.
OR A EUROPEAN IN THE ALTAI!!!!!!!!
All other R1a1 participants with aboriginal surnames (e.g., Robertson, Mathewson) also had the same match profile as the above Williamson. Over time, and as the sample size increased, other rare haplogroups, seen but rarely anywhere in Europe emerged. These included Q (seen almost exclusively in Asia and North America),
THE JURY IS STILL OUT AS TO WHETHER THIS FOUND ITS WAY INTO AMERICA VIA EUROPEAN COLONISTS, OR EVEN PREHISTORIC CASTAWAYS.
and K (found in Asia and the Middle East) came to light.
K IS EURASIAN, AND IS THE ANCESTOR OF R, VIA P. I WOULD EXPECT TO FIND TRACES OF THESE ANCESTRAL HAPLOGROUPS IN ANY DESCENDED POPULATION OF A LARGE ENOUGH FOUNDING GROUP AND SAMPLE SIZE.
These three particular DNA signature patterns were also seen in recently published samples of Norway, Iceland, and the Faroe Islands (the latter two being founded, as was Shetland, as Norse colonies).
ORDINARY EXPECTED RESULTS OF LOW LEVEL GENETIC EXCHANGE ACROSS EURASIA. NO NEED FOR MAJOR UNDOCUMENTED ‘MIGRATIONS’.
If the interpretation of the genetic evidence is valid, it is other sources of data that will hopefully point to a time of the migration, and possibly even the names of historical tribes and individuals that took part in this proposed folk movement.
HOLD YOUR HORSES, FAUX! CONVINCE ME THAT A MIGRATION TOOK PLACE, FIRST! :D
Steeped in myth and mystique,
BLA BLA BLA…
Most agree that modern Scandinavians are descendants of Stone Age hunter – gatherers. None describe a significant migration in historical times that might have turned the established social order upside down and established a new ruling dynasty
ONE DYNASTY?!? DOES HE KNOW NOTHING OF THE INTERNECINE SQUABBLINGS OF EARLY NORDIC HISTORY?
as a consequence of this wave of immigration. If the hypothesis is confirmed a re-writing of pre Viking – era Scandinavian history is required.
‘WOW, LOOK AT ME, I TURNED HISTORY UPSIDE DOWN, WHAT A REVOLUTIONARY I AM!’ :P
So how could historians and others have missed something that may have been so important?
COS IT DIDN’T HAPPEN? :D
Two primary reasons stand out. First is the inescapable fact that there is a historical “dark age” in all of Scandinavia as the Roman Empire began to collapse in the 4th Century. No longer were studies of the names and
locations of tribes in the Germanic north such as that of Pliny the Elder (circa 77 AD), Tacitus (circa 98 AD) and Ptolemy (circa 150 AD) being penned. Familiarity with the peoples of the known world is a function of distance from the Limes (Roman Empire borders). It was not until the 13th Century that Icelandic scribes took upon themselves the task of recording the history of their people.
ER? ADAM OF BREMEN? SAXO? VARIOUS SAINTS’ LIVES ATTACHED TO THE HAMBURG EPISCOPATE? IN PASSIM MENTIONS IN FRANKISH CHRONICLES?
The perception of this work has always been that so much mythology was interwoven with potential fact that many have dismissed any stories about the years prior to Charlemagne as unreliable and mostly fiction. As will be shown, this is a perception that does not hold up with a careful detailed analysis of the content of these works. To be fair, it is only with the latest genetic findings that a reexamination of the Icelandic Eddas and similar texts is warranted since the claims (e.g., about the ruling Aseir people and “mythical” Asgaard as the home of the Scandinavian princely ancestors) either gain support or they do not.
THE EUHEMERISATION OF THE AESIR IS A STANDARD MEDIAEVAL PRACTICE. LINGUISTICS PROVES IT TO BE BOLLOCKS. ANSUZ IS AN AUTOCHTHONOUS PART OF GERMANIC RELIGION. THE FUTHARK ALONE PROVES THAT! GOTHIC ONOMASTICA TOO, POINTS TO ITS BEING OLDER THAN ANY ‘PRE VIKING PERIOD MIGRATION’! IDIOT! BUFFOON! CHARLATAN!
Each source of evidence will now be examined, culminating in an integration of each
with the genetic findings.
Archaeology and Cultural Background of Pre – Viking Norway
BLA BLA BLA … POOR KNOWLEDGE OF NORDIC INTERNAL DIVISIONS…
Around 44 BC various groups of Scandinavians began to move south to the Continent and expand in numbers, including the Goths (who became the historical Ostrogoths and Visigoths) and Vandals (perhaps from Vendel just beyond the northern reaches of the Svear lands), of which more will be said later.
AND WERE THEIR LATER DESCENDANTS MUCH CHANGED FROM THEM IN CULTURE AND LANGUAGE? NO!
Migration Period (375 to 550 AD): ….
The archaeological record (documented by Tejral, 1997) shows new artistic features that manifest themselves at this time (first part of the 5th Century) and have been attributed to Scythian (Siberian tribal peoples from south central Asia for whom the horse was paramount) influences.
HOW SURPRISING. WIDER GEOGRAPHICAL LINKS AS A RESULT OF THE MIGRATION AGE…
At Bornholm, for example horses are found in the graves (a Central Asian tradition).
A LOCAL INNOVATION. A COMMON ONE TOO, WHEREVER HORSES ARE IMPORTANT. THE CELTS DID THE SAME ON OCCASION.
Basically the archaeological evidence strongly suggests that from the 5th
Century there was a strong cultural continuity
SHOCKINGLY POOR CHOICE OF WORDS! I DARE SAY MOST PEOPLE HERE HAVE SOME KOREAN TECHNOLOGY IN THE HOUSE.
between the areas in Scandanavia and points south and includes artifacts from as far east as Afghanistan. The sheer magnitude of the changes argue for a movement of people as opposed to a cultural diffusion – the change was simply too rapid and without any evidence of a transition – it was apparently a replacement.
BUT ONLY FAUX HAS NOTICED THIS? WHAT ROT!
There will be those who will see all this as little more than evidence of
increased trade, but it is the sheer scale and rapidity of the change that argues for a
migration of individuals who brought “foreign” cultural traditions with them.
REPETITION… YAWN
Evidence from Norway provides more evidence to support the “Central Asian migration theory”. For example in Eveboe at Nordfjord in Western Norway is seen a burial mound that duplicates what is seen in the East. Here is found a 5th Century grave with Syrian glass, a geometric toy seen only in Iran and Afghanistan and inhumations of three chiefs “connected in a way which involved the Huns or Eastergermanic horsemen in the Danubian area” (Brandt, 2004).
SOME WARRIOR SAW SERVICE WITH OLD ETZEL AND CAME HOME TO RETIRE. SO WHAT?
An exacting assessment of the archaeological evidence (Fitzhugh and Ward, 2000), states that this shift in styles was a function of the mass movement of peoples across Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. Here the flowering of full animal ornamentation began early in this period in southern Scandinavia “through influences from Scythic, Oriental, Celtic, and Roman art” (p. 62).
SO WHY ARE WE NOT DISCUSSING CELTIC AND ROMAN MIGRATIONS INTO SCANDINAVIA, BY YOUR STUPID REASONING, FAUX?
Scythian peoples include the Scythians,
BLA BLA BLA
Farmsteads in Norway from this Period have been excavated showing that isolated farmsteads were common, with a rectangular stone longhouse, and structures suited to the growing of crops and the raising of animals part of the farmstead.
YEP. NOT NOMADIC SCYTHIAN HUSBANDRY AT ALL!
It is, however, at this time when artifacts begin to show up at sites such as Lake Malar in Sweden where exotic gold coins from the Eastern Roman Empire, as well as a Buddah
OH MAN, LEARN HOW TO SPELL…
There appears to be a fairly abrupt change in religious beliefs and practices when after
about 500 AD sacrifices in the form of humans,
FAUX KNOWS NOTHING. THE CIMBRI OR CHERUSCI NEVER DID THIS SORT OF THING?
Immediately Prior to the Viking – Era was a time when very elaborate burials in southern Sweden hint at the presence of a Royal lineage, and likely the centralized power of regional chieftains. It appears that there were two burial practices relating to high status individuals, and practiced in close proximity. The Vendel Cemetery of the Sveres on the east bank of the River Fyris, which flows southward to Lake Malar, contains bodies placed in boats
THESE ARE SCYTHIAN STEPPE-BOATS, YES? PULLED BY CAMELS, NO DOUBT…
These are a mere 27 kilometers upstream from the Gamla Uppsala burials noted below, and are considered by many or most archaeologists to be the retainers of the latter. It also seems reasonable to propose that they represent an entirely different tribal and cultural unit – but both “aristocratic” in status.
REALLY? AS I UNDERSTOOD IT, TRADITION WAS UNANIMOUS THAT VENDEL IS THE SITE OF OTTAR’S HOWE, AND UPPSALA OF HIS FATHER ANGENTYR, UNCLE ONELA, AND SON ATHILS…
Within the mounds have been found highly decorated armor and horse trappings consistent with Scythian influence. An organic analysis of the soil in the vicinity is consistent with the arrival of a substantial number of horses in the 5th Century, and it is at this time that they make an appearance in the graves of chiefs and warriors.
WHY ‘ARRIVAL’ AND NOT JUST ‘MORE INTENSIFIED USE AND BREEDING, CONNECTED WITH INCREASING ROYAL WEALTH AND PRESTIGE’?!?!?!?
Also, what could be recovered from these cremation burials suggested a grave goods assemblage that included items suggesting a Southeastern European and Persian origin; and in particular the cremation of a woman in one of the mounds included an antique mirror with an eye at the backside which was interpreted as being Sarmatian since these items are very common in the burials of Sarmatian – Hun women in the Black Sea region (Ph.D. dissertation of Anke Bodo, 1993, as reported by Brandt, 2004).
DID SVEAR ROB SLAVS? DID SLAVS HAVE SARMATIAN CONNECTIONS? DID NOT GERMANIC FROM BRITAIN TO THE DON EXCHANGE FANCY GIFTS WITH EACH OTHER? DID NOT FOREIGN POWERS OCCASIONALLY SEND DIPLOMATIC GIFTS TO MAJOR CHIEFTAINS?
Oseberg means “Ases mounds” – suggesting a royal
connection and tying in with the Yngling Sagas once again.
AND LINKING TO ANCIENT NATIVE TRADITIONS. NO ASIAN NOMADS HERE!
the archaeological record indicates a significant change in religious practices occurring in Scandinavia in the 5th Century AD. The dramatic alterations in artifact assemblages and burial practices strongly point to a change “coming from the south around 450 or a little earlier” (Brandt, p.30) a people who would have a significant impact on all aspects of life in Scandinavia – and yet it goes unnoticed in the standard texts.
WHO IS THIS BRANDT, ANYWAY? FAUX IS HEAVILY RELIANT ON HIM.
This period in time marked the beginning of a change in the centers of power to Gamla
Uppsala and Southeastern Bornholm. The thesis of the present study is that these
changes were initiated by the arrival of Uldin
WHO?!?!?!????????????????
Odin and his mixed Ostrogoth / Herul and Hun / Alanic forces established new dynasties and brought with them the unmistakable Y chromosome DNA signatures of Central Asia.
NOW WE GET INTO THE REAL PSEUDOHISTORY! Yeehar!
Evidence from historical and linguistic sources will now be considered.
‘STARTLING NEW DISCOVERIES’ AWAIT US, NO DOUBT… [GROANS]
Historical Evidence
BLA BLA BLA
Heinrich Schliemann
OH! AN EMINENT AND UNCHALLENGED AUTHORITY! D’OH!
This finding at the same time confirmed the validity of the story told by Vergil of the escape of the few Trojans to Italy.
WHAT?!?!?! OH, SOD OFF.
Snorri BLA BLA BLA
Apparently then this migration from the land of the Turkish peoples was largely a male phenomenon, and thus there should be seen in the genetic patterns of the Norse and Swedes some percentage of Asian Y chromosomes (male lineage), but little or no trace of Asiatic female migration (mitochondrial DNA, female lineage).
CHRIST MAN, HAVE A LITTLE CARE FOR HISTORIOGRAPHY! SNORRI’S EUHEMERISATION IS SO TRANSPARENT IT HURTS THE EYE!
Heimskringla:
BLA BLA BLA
2. Of the People of Asia, Snorri here speaks of the land east of the Don being known as Asaland, or Asaheim, and the chief city in that land was called Asgaard,
AYE, STUPID, ISN’T IT?
the city referred to by Snorri is Chasgar, located in the region of the Caucasian ridge, “called by Strasbo *****gum the Asburg
CHRIST… PHILOLOGICALLY WINCEMAKING!
BLA BLA…
Turkland [probably Turkistan in around the Aral Sea in Asia Minor],
SNORRI’S TYRKLAND IS CLEARLY MEANT TO BE THE TROAD…
He therefore set his brothers Ve and Vilje over Asgaard; and he himself, with all the gods and a great many other people, wandered out, first westward to Gardarike [Russia], and then south to Saxland [Germany].”
AND WHY NO TRACES THERE?
It was Odin who introduced the skaldic arts including singing of great deeds.
COMMON TO ALL GERMANICS…
Also, “People sacrificed to Odin and the twelve chiefs from Asaland, and called them their gods, and believed in them long after.” This statement ties in with the archaeological information noted above, with the introduction of Scythian art forms at about this time.
IT DOESN’T THOUGH!
Again the dating is off since Snorri indicated that Ottar went on Viking
raids (which did not begin until the late 7th Century),
NO. SWEDISH ACTIVITIES IN THE BALTIC PREDATE THIS.
and further the Anglo – Saxon poem tells of Ottar being involved in events at the beginning of the 6th Century, was killed in Denmark, and buried there.
IS BEOWULF FOOLPROOF? NO!
As will be seen below, Odin likely died in Sweden about 450, so it is here proposed that the three burial mounds above belong to Odin, Aun, and Egil.
WERE NOT CENOTAPHS A COMMON FEATURE OF GERMANIC BURIAL CUSTOM WHEN BODIES WERE ELSEWHERE? SEE SUTTON HOO.
… the Ases, a Turkic Asian people (also known as Asir)
DON’T YOU JUST LOVE IT WHEN HE MAKES WORDS UP? :P
… Asgaard,
WHY THE DOUBLE A?
somewhere east of the Don and south of the Ural Mountains and possibly at
Chasgar in the Caucasus Mountains.
SNORRI’S NONSENSE SAYS NEAR THE DON. THIS CHASGAR IS MILES AWAY!
When Odin and his people left to move north to Sweden, apparently with the people on the other side of the River Don with whom they had intermarried, he left his two brothers in control of Asgaard. Presumably then the group was divided such that one tribal contingent stayed, and if so, then their descendants may be still in this area to this day.
IMBECILE! WE’RE TALKING ABOUT ANCIENT GERMANIC GODS HERE!
If all the above conditions can be fulfilled through finding a historically documented group that is a close match to that being described by Snorri, then the Norse Sagas will assume a new historical importance – especially if there the genetic evidence is consistent with the information in the Prose Eddas and the Ynglinga Sagas of the Heimskringla.
THE MAN HAS READ THE LORE, AND IS DISAPPOINTED TO HEAR THAT IT’S NOT LITERALLY HISTORICALLY TRUE. HIS REACTION IS TO HEROICALLY ‘REABILITATE’ IT… OH DEAR. I SYMPATHISE A LITTLE, BUT HAVE TO MOCK HIM FOR IT.
Archaeology:
In National Geographic (Edwards, 2003) published an analysis of the ornate artifacts
located in a burial mound in the Republic of Tuva
NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC? ‘ANALYSIS’??!? ‘PRETTY PICTURES’, MORE LIKE! :D
BUT, FFS, MAKE YOUR MIND UP, FAUX! TANNU TUVA AND AZERBAIJAN ARE NOT EXACTLY NEIGHBOURS…
The archaeological attribution of the finds is to the Scythians, “Nomads and
fierce warriors, they lived in Central Asia as early as the nineth century B.C., and their culture spread westward to southern Russia and Ukraine, and even into Germany, before gradually disappearing early in the Christian era.”
HAD IT NOT PREVIOUSLY SPREAD EAST FROM EXACTLY THESE AREAS?
Their language is unknown for certain, however most scholars
believe it was in the Turkic – Altaic family
WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!? IDIOTS! STOP READING TURKISH MEGALOMANIA FROM MURAD ALI!
Unless other wise
SPELLING!
indicated the material below is from an array of ostensibly well –
researched data on the various Scythian peoples found in various sources on the web.
LOL
3) Sauromatrians – Late 7th / early 8th Centuries to 4th Century BC.
THERE’S AN UNNECESSARY ‘R’ IN THERE! ;p
It is beyond the scope of this work to document these in detail.
THANK CHRIST
Russian Steepes
LOL
There is, however, entirely insufficient evidence to warrant asserting that the ancestors of all the Altai peoples were Indo – Europeans from the east.
ER, WHY NOT? SOME OF THEM ARE BOUND TO HAVE BEEN.
about the Uugurs)
WHO? UIGURS PERHAPS?
and Indo –European people who spoke Tocharian, which, according to linguists working with texts dated from the 6th to the 8th Centuries, was “”Proto – Celtic”
LOL. IDIOCY.
BLA BLA BLA
their homeland was the Steepes of the Azov Sea
OH DEAR. HE DID IT AGAIN… AND THERE’S A LOT OF GRASSLAND IN THE SEA, ISN’T THERE? LOL
the Hungarian Steepes.
I DESPAIR…
… Dneiper
OOPS!
Also, at this time the Goths had carved out a large territory along both sides of the Danube River
ER, NO THEY HADN’T. EVER HEARD OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE? IT WAS QUITE BIG AND IMPORTANT ONCE UPON A TIME…
The above information was presented in some detail since it is likely that the group that made its way to Scandinavia in the 5th Century was a mélange, composed of Alans, Huns, and Goths.
UNITED COLOURS OF BENETTON MIGRATION!
Cernjachov
GODS, I HATE SEEING RUSSIAN IN GERMAN ORTHOGRAPHY…
These descendants of the Swedish Goths had adopted the horse – centered lifestyle of
their neighbors, and thus were culturally indistinguishable from the Asiatics.
WHAT???????????
Heruls,
BLAB LBALBLALBABLBLBAABLBLBBALAAA
To the present author there does not seem to be a clear difference between the Heruls and the Eastern Ostrogoths,
LOL (AND DOUBLE LOL AT THE EASTERN-OSTRO TAUTOLOGY!)
particularly since Brandt acknowledges that the first record for the Heruls is
in the swampy area along the Sea of Azov
???????
matter that could be debated at length.
PLEASE NO!
Brandt acknowledges that the Heruls were likely
an amalgam including Sarmatian Alans, and Goths.
LOL. I THINK THIS TELLS US ENOUGH ABOUT MR. BRANDT…
went to Illeria
LOL
Xiong Nu BLA BLA BLA
350 AD. The remenants
LOL. REVENANTS!? :D
Uygurs were noted as the probable founders of the Huns,
RUBBISH
Uldin – It would be difficult not to notice the similarity between the name of the
Hunnic “king”, and the name of the Asian leader of the Norse Sagas named Odin.
OH DEAR…. LET’S BRING ‘ALADDIN’ INTO DISCUSSION AS WELL! :P
…at this time Goths would take Hun names by which they were known in their
community; and other authors state that Huns were in the habit of taking Goth names.
Either way it appears that there was a solid link between the two peoples whose lifestyle
and culture at the time did not differ in any significant way.
NOT ANY!!! LOL. WEEP. SIGH. ANYWAY, HE’S GIVEN A STRAIGHT-FORWARD EXPLANATION FOR THE INTRODUCTION OF STEPPE MOTIFS INTO OUR ART, THAT RENDERS SUPERFLUOUS HIS MIGRATION ‘THEORY’!
This sets the stage for a merging of the two such that both came to revere the horse;
AND THE OLD INDOEUROPEANS THOUGHT THE HORSE WAS WHAT? NONKOSHER?
Donatus and Charato (perhaps the two brothers of Odin mentioned in the Sagas).
PERHAPS, LOL.
Thor Heyerall: The Hunt for Odin
HE’S A CRAZY GUY, BUT SPELL HIS NAME RIGHT! :D
He raised the question, why are northern Europeans called Caucasian?
CHRIST ALMIGHTY…
in the south of Russia found a legend of a group of people, who in the long distant past, had emigrated to the northern areas of Europe. He found that their leader was a man called Odin.
RUBBISH.
His visit was, of course, to the Caucasus Mountains. He brought back with him to Norway a group of musicians from that area who performed after his talk”
THEY LATER ABSCONDED, CHUCKED AWAY THEIR RUSSIAN PASSPORTS AND BECAME NOTED CONTROLLERS OF PROSTITUTION AND NARCOTICS IN THE TOWN…
What is very interesting for the purposes of the present study is that Dr. Heyerdahl located a people called “Odin-People” (Ossetians) residing in what is today Azerbaijan, who he said consider themselves descendants of the same people who migrated to Scandinavia long ago.
IDIOT! HE MEANS THE UDIN, WHO ARE LEZGHIANS WITH NO LINK TO THE ARYAN OSSETS! THE OSSETS LIVE VERY FAR AWAY!
Ashov (read as As-hov)
LOL
“The book is a gold mine to those interested in research ethics. To anyone with a love for juicy errors and hilarious anachronyms, H and L provide a good read.”
AS DOES FAUX!
Linguistic Evidence
Linguists are separated into two camps in relation to all Indo – European languages. One group believes that about 6,000 years ago horse mounted invading clans of Kurgan tribes from the Ukraine and spread Indo – European languages to Central Asia, the Indian sub –continent, and eventually to Europe. The other camp is of the opinion that the mega language family emerged in Neolithic Anatolia (Turkey) and spread with agricultural
innovations.
BOTH ARE WRONG. :D
However, in essence, it is unknown whether the peoples of this region spoke Indo – European or Turkic languages.
IN ANATOLIA? IDIOT!
Among the present day tribal peoples of Central Asia to be “candidates” for the Aseir
THE WHO?~?~?
The word Azir in Persian means “fire” and in Turkic the meaning is “high”.
OH DEAR…
Thus the Azir, known as Azeri from Azerbaijan bear a remarkable phonetic resemblance to the Asir noted by Snorri in the Norse Sagas.
THEY DON’T. D’OH
Rune stones, with essentially the same script, has been found on items such as a silver bowl in a Saka – Sarmatian grave circa 400 BC, indistinguishable, according to Kimball – Davis, from their Germanic counterparts. Artuns (1994) provides evidence that the rune stones of Norway have their origins in the Middle East.
OH MY GOD…
Therefore it is clear that there was a recognized Royal Family in Scandinavia in the 6th Century (548 AD) whose roots are among the migrants northward a century previous. Here the linguistic, archaeological and historical evidence all point clearly in the same direction.
REALLLY, I MUST HAVE MISSED THAT ‘EVIDENCE’…
Genetic Evidence
most males in County Connaught, Ireland
IDIOT! IT’S NOT A COUNTY!
… BLA BLA BLA… UNNECESSARY GENETICS LECTURE…
I: The I1a (M253) lineage is largely restricted to Northwestern Europe.
IT ISN’T THOUGH, IS IT? OR IS HE TALKING ABOUT A PARTICULAR VARIETY OF ‘I’?
R1a1: is the one haplogroup that, if found in Britain, is almost certainly attributable to the presence of the Vikings.
OR ANGLES? OR ANCIENT CONTINENTAL CELTS?
Q: The Q lineage links Asia and the Americas.
AS I SAID SUPRA, IT IS A DESCENDANT OF P. COULD BE FROM ANYWHERE IN NORTHERN EURASIA.
C3: no indication of any association with the Vikings as this
haplogroup has not been observed to date in Scandinavia.
OH WHAT A SHAME! IT MUST HAVE BEEN SCREENED FOR DURING YOUR ‘MIGRATION’…
N: This lineage most likely
originated in northern China or Mongolia
RUBBISH, IT’S HARDLY KNOWN SOUTH OF THE GOBI! EVEN OF THE TAIGA!
G: The G2 lineage is defined by P15. It is
seen in scattered contexts in some locations in Sweden.
NOT NEARLY ENOUGH TO GET EXCITED ABOUT. CERTAINLY NOT ENOUGH TO BASE ‘MIGRATIONS’ ON.
Haplogroup N3 (also known as Tat) is found very infrequently in Norse colonies and
could have come via East Asia … The problem is that the immediate neighbors of the Norwegians and the Swedes to the north (Saami) and east (Finns) have about 40% and 60% N3 respectively.
SHOVE THE EASTERN HYPOTHESIS THEN! LOL
Haplogroup Q Y Chromosomes undoubtedly emerged in Central Asia
NOT QUITE
Barac found that the Adriatic
island of Hvar was unique in having 14% P* - 92R7 (Q) Y chromosomes – compared to a
rate of .02 on the Croatian Mainland. Here is an enclave of the probable descendants of
one or more of the Central Asian incursions into the European heartland.
NO. JUST A CHANCE FOUNDER EFFECT…
Therefore by virtue of the “founder effect” or “genetic drift”, Q may be found at a higher rate in Iceland than anywhere else in the Norse world. However, it may turn out that as the sample size increases for Shetland we will see similar number appear there.
EXACTLY
Haplogroup R1a is the predominant grouping in many Central Asian peoples, out eclipsing what is seen in Scandinavia. It occurs among the tribal peoples of the Altai and adjacent regions often at rates over 50%. An interesting question is whether the haplotypes associated with this haplogroup in Scandinavia more closely match those of Eastern Europe (where R1a also predominates), or those of Central Asia, and whether there are any specific markers which serve to distinguish Y chromosomes from each of these regions. Since the hypothesis being tested in the present study is that there was a significant migration of people from Central Asia prior to the Viking - Era, it is probable that the Swedish and Norwegian people (and the colonies they spawned) would not only have Q and K haplotypes (found at very low levels in Scandinavia), but also the “Asian variety” of R1a.
NOW THAT IS WHAT WE NEED. BUT DO YOU PROVIDE IT, FAUX? NO!
There are some clues that suggest that there is something different about a subset of R1a, Y chromosomes from Iceland to Sweden.
DON’T YOU JUST LOVE FIRM CONCRETE SPECIFIC SCIENTIFIC STATEMENTS LIKE THIS?
However there is another set of R1a participants who match more individuals in China, Mongolia, and Central Asia –particularly the Altai.
WITH NO CLUE AS TO THE AGE OF THIS COMMONALITY…
It is clear that the Shetland example most closely matches the Central Asian Altai, Kyrghyz, and Tajiks (all from Kazakhstan or other areas along the Chinese border with Siberia), plus the Azeri who reside on the west side of the Caspian Sea.
PROBABLY BECAUSE THE INTERMEDIATE RUSSIAN EXPANSES HAVE NOT BEEN ADEQUATELY SAMPLED YET.
A Unique Genetic R1a Polymorphism Separating Norwegians from Eastern Europeans One potentially important observation here is that among the groups to most closely match the Shetland participants are the Khirgiz (Kirghizes), who are called Ases (with As being common as a Turkic ethnic or geographical name),
WHO ARE THESE? HONESTLY, HE GOES INTO SUCH POINTLESS DEPTH ON THE ALANS AND SO ON, BUT DOESN’T EXPLAIN STUFF HERE. TURKIC, BY THE WAY, IS A NOTORIOUSLY BASIC LINGUISTIC GROUP IN TERMS OF BASIC LEXICA. AS- IS HARDLY A RARE MORPHEME IN ANY LANGUAGE, AND IT WOULD STICK OUT MORE IN TURKIC IF IT HAD IT.
the term given by Icelandic Sagas to the ancestors of the Scandinavian Royalty.
IDIOT, AGAIN! IT’S THE NAME OF THE GODS, THAT’S ALL!
This observation will be addressed in detail later.
OH NO.
In looking at the haplogroup and the haplotype data presented so far there are fairly sweeping conclusions that can be made.
HOW DOES THAT NOT SURPRISE ME?
…BLINDS US WITH FIGURES…
Q Haplotypes in Asian and European Populations
INCONCLUSIVE FLOUNDERING…
Shetland Project Participants and the Azeri - Armenia
Equine Genetic Support
Bjornstad et al. (2003) set out to test the theory that the native Norwegian
Nordland/Lyngen and Fjord horse breeds would show a genetic similarity to the native Mongolian horse due to the accompaniment of horses in a proposed migration of humans from Central Asia to Norway. They used 26 STR microsatellites in collected blood and hair samples, and showed the close genetic relationship between the breeds as predicted and not between these horses and, for example, Standardbred trotters. In addition, “The presence of primitive phenotypes in the Fjord horse, such as a dark eel stripe along the
back and occasionally transverse stripes on the legs, suggests that the breed is old and could be traced directly back to the Asiatic wild horse”. (p. 56) They estimated that there is the about the same distance between the Fjord horse and its descendant the Icelandic horse as there is between the Fjord horse and the Mongolian horse – therefore about 875 years. Assuming that this estimate is roughly accurate then the people who brought the
horse left Mongolia about 150 BC - which is in agreement with the historical evidence to be presented in the present study.
I CAN’T COMMENT ON THIS. IF HUMAN GENETICS IS STILL SO UP IN THE AIR, THOUGH, I CAN HARDLY VOUCH FOR THE EQUINE VARIANT’S COMPREHENSIVENESS!
Conclusions in Relation to the Historical, Archaeological, Linguistic and Genetic
Findings
Based on the data above, the following interpretation is set forth, and related in story
fashion going back to the dawn of mankind in Central Asia. and the people who today are known as the Khirgyz and Tajiks from Khirgystan
WINCE! SPELLING!!!! SEE ME.
a Swedish people known as the Ostrogoths
OH DEAR….
Here a leader known as Uldin (Odin in Norse) emerges and makes a name for himself in the Roman world before disappearing from the world’s stage (i.e., from the awareness of the classical writers) in 408.
OH DEAR…
(Azer being as close to Aesir as one can imagine)
OH DEAR. BUT AT LEAST HE FINALLY GOT THE SPELLING RIGHT!
are today a group residing in the mountains of Azerbaijan.
WRONG. THEY LIVE ON THE COASTAL PLAINS AND INNER STEPPE. THE MOUNTAINS ARE INHABITED BY DAGESTANIS AND ARMENIANS…
This perspective on history is supported by the archaeological record where at Gamla Uppsala there are three burial mounds attributed to the kings of Sweden in the 5th Century, and the burial practices are consistent with those of the Scythian peoples (cremation burials with a wealth of grave goods with a twenty foot mound over top).
RUBBISH. WHERE ARE THE STUFFED HORSES ON STANDS? THE LARGE SUTTEE ACCOMPANIMENTS?
Similar burials are seen all the way back to before the birth of Christ in the Altai.
NOT NEARLY SIMILAR ENOUGH FOR COMMENT.
Furthermore, in looking at the R1a genetic signatures of 4 locations in Norway and 5 in Sweden, it is clear that the people who most resemble the Y chromosome DNA signatures in the Altai are found at Gamla Uppsala and Vasterbotten in Sweden, and also in Northern Norway.
NOT ENOUGH DATA IS KNOWN TO SAY THIS DEFINITIVELY. THE ALTAI IS A WELL KNOWN REFUGE. EVERYTHING FOUND ITS WAY THEERE, ONE TIME OR ANOTHER.
The human genetic data is even supported by a comparison of the genetics of the Norwegian Fjord horse and the Mongolian horse and the data suggests that the migrants to Scandinavia brought with them their prized horses which became the root stock of the Norwegian equines of today.
DOES IT NOT JUST ARGUE FOR A LACK OF MAJOR ARTIFICIAL SELECTION, TO PRESERVE THE HARDIEST BEAST POSSIBLE, RATHER THAN THE DAINTY THOROUGHBREDS WE ARE MORE FAMILIAR WITH TODAY?
As well, this data supports the basic assertions of the controversial Thor Heyerdahl as to the connection between the Azeri people and the Scandinavians.
HE READ TOR WHEN HE WAS A BOY, AND IS ALL ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT HIM… GROW UP NOW!
The facts can speak for themselves, but need to be put in a theoretical framework that is a “best fit”. The converging data sources appear to support the hypothesis set forth in the present work. If the evidence presented here can withstand the scrutiny of others, and the test of time, then it will be necessary to include the details of the migration of Mongolian-Azeri forbearers
NEOLOGISM! :P
when speaking of Scandinavian history.

HMM….


THE ONLY HALFWAY TEMPTING THING IS THE SHETLAND – CAUCASUS PARALLELS IN I. BUT I DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT VERY WELL AND AM UNSURE OF ITS RELIABILITY. AGAIN, THE CAUCASUS, LIKE THE ALTAI, IS A REFUGE, AND ALL SORTS ENDED UP THERE. THE OSSETS AND ALANS ARE PROBABLY THE CULPRITS HERE. NOTHING NEW – THEY WERE CLOSELY RELATED TO THE SLAVS AND GERMANICS ANYWAY. AND MAYBE THE ODD INDIVIDUAL ENDED UP IN SCANDINAVIA. BUT NO MAJOR MIGRATIONS, AND NO ‘AESIR’ – ‘AZERIS’! THAT’S JUST STUPID.

[Brännvin]

Thor Heyerdahl's theories are total nutcase, at least it was original to create their own fiction.. the guy Faux is just an ordinary plagiarist..

[Osweo]

Thor Heyerdahl's theories are total nutcase, at least it was original to create their own fiction..
Hehe! As a struggling author, I can forgive him a little - he certainly managed to make a living from it all!

And actually, he deserves a lot of credit for his impressive and revealing nautical adventures and experiments. I only wish he'd been content to limit it to that, without pretending to be a historian too!

the guy Faux is just an ordinary plagiarist..
Aye. Gods save us from 'enthusiasts'... :thumb001:

[Brännvin]

Aye. Gods save us from 'enthusiasts'... :thumb001:

Oh no! .. save us from charlatans, liars and counterfeiters..

You also read the "paper" and have noted the text is full of grotesque historical errors. Faux mentions that the Scandinavian peninsula was inhabited around the Mesolithic (ca. 10000 ago), well that's ok, but then I haven't seen anywhare in Mr. Charlatan Faux his paper the upcome of the Corded Ware/Boat-Axe culture (ca 2800-2100BC for Scandinavia), and consequently it distorts virtually all Nordic Bronze age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age)/proto-Germanic culture. Of course I'm not sure of this and neither are scholars and scientists. But I think it is very strange that Faux doesn't mention anything about the Corded Ware.. and also distorting and ignoring important following periods as the Nordic Bronze age, Vendel era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendel_era) etc.. until the Viking era and begin to make these bizarre claims, all that is where his work is considered to be biased and chronologically grotesque..

The second thing is the upcome of stirrups and artefacts wich portray animals, Faux mentions this is only during the Age of Migration. Actually in Merovinger Francia along the same time there are also found elite graves of a similar setting (Childerik). However Germanic peoples wandered far, and often hired their sword for the highest bidder, it is not unlikely at all that few of them came back to Scandinavia and brought with them their wealthy armor etc..
From the same time are images of men in chariots pulled forward by horses. The most known is the Kivik grave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_Grave) in Skåne dating from ca. 1325 BC. Also concerning these, like the Corded Ware or Nordic Bronze age/proto-Germanic culture, Faux doesn't spend one word on it or when he simply distorted that based on personal claims rather than existing archaeological artifacts. This I find peculiar.

I hope you've got something on this..

Any Scandinavian who knows the least the minimum of their history when reading it may feel insulted, that meant the paper is ridiculous, not saying retarded...

[Allenson]

I wasn't going to respond to this as I thought that it might throw the thread off-kilter, but I think that its a good opportunity to discuss Scandinavian morphology, which loosely enters the orbit of what the thread has become.

I believe you and I (if I recall) had a very general discussion about this at Skadi back in - Ohhhhhhhh...what was it - 1778, I think.

;)


With respect, there is no such thing as a Uralid "tinge"........


............You have hit the nail on the head, here, though. It is important to understand the full extent of the Coonian principle of "Incipiency", however.

"Tinge" = "incipiency"....or at least that is how I meant it in that particular post.

Sorry for the non-scientific, everyman speak. :cool:



The difference is so drastic that it's akin to saying "Negrid tinge" or "Sinid tinge".

Nothing of the sort was meant or subtly implied.


abberant eye axis.

= incipiency as I saw it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyhoo, I read the whole article and I am far from convinced regarding Faux's theory. Particularly regarding the time period he seems to be positing for Scythian settlement in Scandinavia and the whole Uldin is Odin notion. Is he really suggesting that Odin/Woden/Wotan didn't enter the Germanic vernacular unil the early 400s AD?

From a genetic standpoint, it makes much more sense to me that any central Asian markers that appear in Scandinavia today are more the result of Kurgan folk/IE spreaders who picked up a few of these markers on their horsebacked adventures across the steppes far earlier than the 400s AD.

[Proto-Shaman]

el bumpo.. the show must go on ;)