Macedonia-as I saw it

[Bugarash]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b8/chicagogeorge/MacedonoiaasIsawit1905.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b8/chicagogeorge/Macedonia1834.jpg

[iNird]

delete

[Vojnik]

So this English guy is saying that Macedonians are Asiatic invaders? Do you support that rubbish Bugarash?

[morski]

So this English guy is saying that Macedonians are Asiatic invaders? Do you support that rubbish Bugarash?

To which of the eight races living in Macedonia are you refering?

This English guy is talking about Bulgarians and Bulgarians formed as an ethnicity and then as a nation in the Balkans, so no, he's not saying that Macedonians are Asiatic invaders.:)

[Vojnik]

In the second article it notes that Bulgarians and Greeks are the most numerous and that Bulgarians (Macedonians) come from Scythia, which is close to Tatarstan if I'm not mistaken. So I was wondering if Bugarash supported it.

In the first article the author mentions that "the race of Phillip is lost amid asiatics from Turkistan".

[morski]

In the second article it notes that Bulgarians and Greeks are the most numerous and that Bulgarians (Macedonians) come from Scythia, which is close to Tatarstan if I'm not mistaken. So I was wondering if Bugarash supported it.

In the first article the author mentions that "the race of Phillip is lost amid asiatics from Turkistan".

Maybe he's refering to the Turks. This "Northeners from Finland" is even more puzzling to me.:D

Scythia is the steppe North of the Black Sea, while Moesia and Dobrudzha were refered to by the ancient Greeks as Little Scythia.

[ioan assen]

At such sources I always wonder how our brothers the Macedonians can deny that we used to be one people, one ethnicity. The separation was very recent. I think they should just accept the facts and not accent in their history on the ancient Macedonians. True, the preslavic Balkan people did play a big part ethnically in the formation of all Balkan nations but the Bulgarians and the Macedonians formed as one nation in medievil thimes within the Bulgarian empire from the same people: Slavs, Bulgars and Thracian/Macedonians. Both people had the idea they are one people until recently.

[Midori]

At such sources I always wonder how our brothers the Macedonians can deny that we used to be one people, one ethnicity. The separation was very recent. I think they should just accept the facts and not accent in their history on the ancient Macedonians. True, the preslavic Balkan people did play a big part ethnically in the formation of all Balkan nations but the Bulgarians and the Macedonians formed as one nation in medievil thimes within the Bulgarian empire from the same people: Slavs, Bulgars and Thracian/Macedonians. Both people had the idea they are one people until recently.

gtfo, we don't want to be your brothers



Nah, jk. But we are different people. Macedonians are descended of Illyrians, Hellenes and Slavs while Bulgarians are Thracians and Slavs (and possibly Bulgars).

[Archduke]

Nah, jk. But we are different people. Macedonians are descended of Illyrians, Hellenes and Slavs while Bulgarians are Thracians and Slavs (and possibly Bulgars).

Bulgarians have more Hellenic blood than Macedonians. :coffee:

[ioan assen]

gtfo, we don't want to be your brothers
yes we ve heard it all: we are tatars. Jokes aside we are brothers like it or not (you personally obviouslly not).
Klement, Samuel, Ioan Radomir (Bitola inscription - selfconfession), Paissii, Dame Gruev, Goce Delechev, Miladinovi bros and practically all the national Macedonian heroes would strongly disagree.


Nah, jk. But we are different people. Macedonians are descended of Illyrians, Hellenes and Slavs while Bulgarians are Thracians and Slavs (and possibly Bulgars).
Wrong. Both people descend from the same people:
Slavs from the Eastern southslavic group
Bulgars (in Bulgaria of Asparuch, in Macedonia of Kuber plus other Bulgars that settled later)
Thracians (Maedi, Bessi etc - in the case of Bulgaria and Peonians (which were Thracian) - in the case of the Macedonians).

[Midori]

Wrong. Both people descend from the same people:
Slavs from the Eastern southslavic group
Bulgars (in Bulgaria of Asparuch, in Macedonia of Kuber plus other Bulgars that settled later)
Thracians (Maedi, Bessi etc - in the case of Bulgaria and Peonians (which were Thracian) - in the case of the Macedonians).

Macedonians are Western Balkan people, like Serbs, Bosnians, Albanians etc.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Western_Balkans.PNG

And there were no Bulgars in Macedonia, that's bullshit :coffee:

[Archduke]

Macedonians are Western Balkan people, like Serbs, Bosnians, Albanians etc.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Western_Balkans.PNG

And there were no Bulgars in Macedonia, that's bullshit :coffee:


List of the South Slavic peoples and ethnic groups, including population figures:[51]
Eastern group: (up to 12,500,000 all together)
Bulgarians = 8 to 10,000,000
Macedonians = 2 to 2,500,000
Torlaks
Western group: (up to 24,900,000 all together)
Serbs = 10,500,000
Croats = 8 to 8,500,000
Bosniaks = 3,000,000
Slovenes = 2,500,000
Montenegrins = 400,000
Yugoslavs, Bunjevci, Muslims by nationality, Torlaks and other minor ethnic groups

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs

Macedonia is in the Western Balkans, but culturally it is Eastern, like Bulgaria.

[Midori]

^I don't think so

[Linet]

Wrong. Both people descend from the same people:
Slavs from the Eastern southslavic group
Bulgars (in Bulgaria of Asparuch, in Macedonia of Kuber plus other Bulgars that settled later)
Thracians (Maedi, Bessi etc - in the case of Bulgaria and Peonians (which were Thracian) - in the case of the Macedonians).

I agree....
...but Peonians were fully mixed to the Fyromians when Thracians did not do the same with Bulgarians. Dont forget that the mother does the kid and not the kid the mother....
When Slavs came to the area, Thracians were already fully Hellenised for more than 1000 years. So as Greeks they stayed with the Greeks and they retreated to the South. Of course a part of them stayed there and so Bulgarians share some Thrakian blood but the main body of them stayed Greeks.

[Bugarash]

In the second article it notes that Bulgarians and Greeks are the most numerous and that Bulgarians (Macedonians) come from Scythia, which is close to Tatarstan if I'm not mistaken. So I was wondering if Bugarash supported it.

In the first article the author mentions that "the race of Phillip is lost amid asiatics from Turkistan".

Tatatarstan=geographically in Europe

Scythia:

http://hetman3333.blox.pl/resource/scytia.jpg

[Archduke]

^I don't think so

Well, what can i say? This is the reallity...

[Bugarash]

I agree....
...but Peonians were fully mixed to the Fyromians when Thracians did not do the same with Bulgarians. Dont forget that the mother does the kid and not the kid the mother....
When Slavs came to the area, Thracians were already fully Hellenised for more than 1000 years. So as Greeks they stayed with the Greeks and they retreated to the South. Of course a part of them stayed there and so Bulgarians share some Thrakian blood but the main body of them stayed Greeks.

Slavs reached Peloponnese!
does that have any meaning to you?

the truth is that even the greeks that were present in Macedonia in the 19 th centure,were hellenised bulgarians!

I mean almost the entire time while we were under the ottomans the greek church was the main and only orthodox church here,and it pushed the greek idea!

[Linet]

The problem is that all of you around us lack history...so you came here and in order to gain some rights to the lands you have and the lands you claim, you try to get a connection to the nations that were here before you....
Thats all there is to it...and Greeks were here thousant of years before you to step foot to the area...so it was almost innevitable that you would be asking for a connection with this or that Greek tribe....
...Yet, everything must have a limit....so i understand why you feel the need to do it but try at least to do it in a mmmm..... polite way...because you lose control of your claims.... :wink

[poiuytrewq0987]

The problem is that all of you around us lack history...so you came here and in order to gain some rights to the lands you have and the lands you claim, you try to get a connection to the nations that were here before you....
Thats all there is to it...and Greeks were here thousant of years before you to step foot to the area...so it was almost innevitable that you would be asking for a connection with this or that Greek tribe....
...Yet, everything must have a limit....so i understand why you feel the need to do it but try at least to do it in a mmmm..... polite way...because you lose control of your claims.... :wink

Greeks are indeed very Homeric!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Z7B2tt33sdo/TujMQaMBPDI/AAAAAAAACUc/1nQbqQRjZkY/s1600/drooling_homer-785344.gif

[Queen B]

the truth is that even the greeks that were present in Macedonia in the 19 th centure,were hellenised bulgarians!

Who Hellinized them?


The problem is that all of you around us lack history...so you came here and in order to gain some rights to the lands you have and the lands you claim, you try to get a connection to the nations that were here before you....
Thats all there is to it...and Greeks were here thousant of years before you to step foot to the area...so it was almost innevitable that you would be asking for a connection with this or that Greek tribe....
...Yet, everything must have a limit....so i understand why you feel the need to do it but try at least to do it in a mmmm..... polite way...because you lose control of your claims.... :wink

Why its impossible?

Look what our neighbor taught us:

Under Ottoman empire, while Bulgarians, Albanians and whatever-anians were supossed to be the majority, and the Greeks were supposed to be non-existant, we Hellinized them.

In Asia Minor/Pontus, were isn't under Greek control for 600 years, and where Greek's aren't the majority, the supposed non-existent Greeks, Hellinized the Pontics, etc.

So, the minority, or better, as our neighbors claim ''non-existand'' Greeks, Hellinized the rest. And not only when Greece was in power, but under foreign control.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

I mean, Linet , deal with it, this great logic makes absolute sense . :thumbs up:thumbs up

:rotfl:

[ioan assen]

I agree....
...but Peonians were fully mixed to the Fyromians when Thracians did not do the same with Bulgarians. Dont forget that the mother does the kid and not the kid the mother....
When Slavs came to the area, Thracians were already fully Hellenised for more than 1000 years. So as Greeks they stayed with the Greeks and they retreated to the South. Of course a part of them stayed there and so Bulgarians share some Thrakian blood but the main body of them stayed Greeks.
I disagree. There are no sources claiming that "Peonians mixed to form the Macedonians, but Thracians did not - in the case of Bulgarians". Yes, there are sources about Roman sitizens going south to escape Bulgar, Avar and Slav expeditions in Roman lands, but those expeditions took place as much in Macedonia as in Bulgaria and the Byzantine authors are known to overblow the situation for more dramatic effect. There are no proofs that the Peonians survived, but the Thracians were hellenized - actually the Bible was translated into Bessian as late as 7 century and the Bessi were Thracians. But even if both people were hellenized and romanized: the mixture with Bulgars and Slavs is still posible and we can asume it took place, judging by the grammer of Bulgarian and Macedonian: which has so many common features with Romanian and Albanian that those are the only slavic languages in the Balkan linguistic union. Also lately I ve read some Vatican documents and the most interesting thing is that its expected the Bulgarians (at those times including the Macedonians) would be refered to grouped with the Serbs, but in reality we were almost always grouped with the Vlachs.
For example in Vatican text the author were describing how a certain word sounds in different Balkan languages: and he wrote its sounds this way in Serbian, in Bulgarian and Vlachian - this way etc.

[Lithium]

I can't understand why everyone here tries to tell the Macedonians that they aren't actually Macedonians. Their ethinicty's consciousness have been changed so much in the last years you can't blame them for being raised with another nationalistic views.

[Linet]

I can't understand why everyone here tries to tell the Macedonians that they aren't actually Macedonians. Their ethinicty's consciousness have been changed so much in the last years you can't blame them for being raised with another nationalistic views.

Because Macedonians still exist :rose: , and its not them....they try to steal another peoples history and name...

[Vojnik]

Because Macedonians still exist :rose: , and its not them....they try to steal another peoples history and name...

We have stolen nothing, yous are the ones who are thieves. The Ethnic make up of todays so called 'Greek Macedonians' is one that is multi ethnic. Us Slavic speakers are the real Macedonians that are indigenous to Macedonia. 'Greek Macedonians' are mostly Christian Turk refugees from Anotolia, that is a fact, how much times do you want me to tell yous?

[Linet]

I disagree. There are no sources claiming that "Peonians mixed to form the Macedonians, but Thracians did not - in the case of Bulgarians". Yes, there are sources about Roman sitizens going south to escape Bulgar, Avar and Slav expeditions in Roman lands, but those expeditions took place as much in Macedonia as in Bulgaria and the Byzantine authors are known to overblow the situation for more dramatic effect. There are no proofs that the Peonians survived, but the Thracians were hellenized - actually the Bible was translated into Bessian as late as 7 century and the Bessi were Thracians. But even if both people were hellenized and romanized: the mixture with Bulgars and Slavs is still posible and we can asume it took place, judging by the grammer of Bulgarian and Macedonian: which has so many common features with Romanian and Albanian that those are the only slavic languages in the Balkan linguistic union. Also lately I ve read some Vatican documents and the most interesting thing is that its expected the Bulgarians (at those times including the Macedonians) would be refered to grouped with the Serbs, but in reality we were almost always grouped with the Vlachs.
For example in Vatican text the author were describing how a certain word sounds in different Balkan languages: and he wrote its sounds this way in Serbian, in Bulgarian and Vlachian - this way etc.

I also disagree with you :wink....

1. The Peonians, either they vanished miracusly :flamed: (there is no written evidence of a massacre from any Greek and Roman source and as you well know, if anything like that had happened they would have refered it in order to show the Barbarism of the Slavs) ...either they mixed with the newcomers :naughty: (Slavs.)
...Since there is not even a hint for a genocide :rip: , we can only assume that they mixed with the newcomers. Slavs never had any second thoughts at mixing with locals and Peonians were also a peasant tribe that didnt have mixing perservation ideals so i cant see why it wouldnt happen...:icon_ask:

2. About the Thracians, let me answer you with a real example :book2:.
...The famous emperor Julian :biggrin that lived at the first half of the 3rd century was considered Greek and he is the one who tried to revive the glory of his ancestors=Greeks. If we see the reason why everybody, including himself, consider him Greek you ll see that his Greek ancestry is...Thracian from Bithynia. Thracians allready at the dawn of the 3rd century were considered fully Greeks.

Julian (Latin: Flavius Claudius Julianus Augustus, Greek: Φλάβιος Κλαύδιος Ἰουλιανός Αὔγουστος;[1] 331/332[2] – 26 June 363), commonly known as Julian the Apostate, or also Julian the Philosopher, was Roman Emperor from 361 to 363 and a noted philosopher and Greek writer.

...So 400 years later when Slavs came to the area, you must not think of them as Thracians but as Greeks.
... So they acted accordingly, Greek population movement etc.
...As you well know, one of the most basic morals of the Greeks is the "do not mix"... but even if it wasnt...think of the difference in culture and lifestyle of the Slavs that had just reached the area and the Greeks of the area (Thracians) that were elites at the time since they were in such proximity to teh Glorius Constantinoupolis and their lands were like aristocratic suburbs.

[Linet]

We have stolen nothing, yous are the ones who are thieves. The Ethnic make up of todays so called 'Greek Macedonians' is one that is multi ethnic. Us Slavic speakers are the real Macedonians that are indigenous to Macedonia. 'Greek Macedonians' are mostly Christian Turk refugees from Anotolia, that is a fact, how much times do you want me to tell yous?

Read history :coffee:

[Arcaius]

oh common what's all this shit again from bulgarash :/ dude get a life... get laid and do something useful with your life... i know that you love Macedonians or how what ever name you give... you LOVE... since every post is about them.. and who the fuck wants to be brothers with Bulgarians.... go ask brothers in turkey :/ who cares to be in any relation with gypsies ... since Macedonians had Serbians to be one with but they didn't.. and guess what ??? you are way lover than any Serbian...

it's offence when someone say to Macedonian that is Bulgarian.... since nobody likes to be compared with someone less than him,but nobody have problem to be compared with Serbians since he will take it as "maybe he doesn't know"... since they are far far better than you ....

and for all the times you try to show you have Greek blood.... you are lower than any Macedonian (no matter how much history is taken,or what disagreement there is) you will be still lower in any Greek eyes! so cut the crap cupcake and go cry to Turks maybe they will accept you as brothers even tho i doubt it

[Aenoh]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs

Macedonia is in the Western Balkans, but culturally it is Eastern, like Bulgaria.

Moreover fyromanians look quite Bulgarian(which they are) to my eyes which i associate with the Eastern Balkan Slav look.

[Linet]

and for all the times you try to show you have Greek blood.... you are lower than any Macedonian (no matter how much history is taken,or what disagreement there is) you will be still lower in any Greek eyes! so cut the crap cupcake and go cry to Turks maybe they will accept you as brothers even tho i doubt it

Care to explain.... :chin: ?
...i believe i got it...but lets be sure :eyes:

[Flintlocke]

" Our enemies are Medes and Persians, men who for centuries have lived soft and luxurious lives; we of Macedon for generations past have been trained in the hard school of danger and war. Above all, we are free men, and they are slaves. There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay — and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. As for our foreign troops — Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes — they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia. And what, finally, of the two men in supreme command? You have Alexander, they — Darius! "

- Alexander III

[Arcaius]

linet pls i'm tired of people all the bulgars and filthy albos dripping crap from their mouths... unless they love the taste of shit so much :) ... i really don't see Greeks making that many posts of oh the Macedonians are this oh they are that...

and especially when some ass from some were aside comes that has no connection with any of the nations involved... start whiping asses.. when his own is covered with shit :/

back off haters.... you are and always will be someone who wants to be them and can't ....
haters gonna hate

[morski]

oh common what's all this shit again from bulgarash :/ dude get a life... get laid and do something useful with your life... i know that you love Macedonians or how what ever name you give... you LOVE... since every post is about them.. and who the fuck wants to be brothers with Bulgarians.... go ask brothers in turkey :/ who cares to be in any relation with gypsies ... since Macedonians had Serbians to be one with but they didn't.. and guess what ??? you are way lover than any Serbian...

it's offence when someone say to Macedonian that is Bulgarian.... since nobody likes to be compared with someone less than him,but nobody have problem to be compared with Serbians since he will take it as "maybe he doesn't know"... since they are far far better than you ....

and for all the times you try to show you have Greek blood.... you are lower than any Macedonian (no matter how much history is taken,or what disagreement there is) you will be still lower in any Greek eyes! so cut the crap cupcake and go cry to Turks maybe they will accept you as brothers even tho i doubt it

Of course, we have always known that this is the real attitude of the Greeks towards us, but it's nice to see an honest Greek for a change.:thumb001:

[Arcaius]

Of course, we have always known that this is the real attitude of the Greeks towards us, but it's nice to see an honest Greek for a change.:thumb001:

i'm not Greek...

[Drawing-slim]

I've said this before, i hold bulgarians to be the nicest and most civilised people in balkans today as whole.
So to read some idiots saying no one wants to be comparef with bulgars but instead greek or serb or macedonian suppose would be better, its fucking insulting.

[Vojnik]

Arcaius, smiri se malce.

[Drawing-slim]

linet pls i'm tired of people all the bulgars and filthy albos dripping crap from their mouths... unless they love the taste of shit so much :) ... i really don't see Greeks making that many posts of oh the Macedonians are this oh they are that...

and especially when some ass from some were aside comes that has no connection with any of the nations involved... start whiping asses.. when his own is covered with shit :/

back off haters.... you are and always will be someone who wants to be them and can't ....
haters gonna hateGo brush your teeth and wash that dirty mouth oo yours before you mention Albania or Bulgaria.

[morski]

i'm not Greek...

My bad, then.:D

[Arcaius]

I've said this before, i hold bulgarians to be the nicest and most civilised people in balkans today as whole.
So to read some idiots saying no one wants to be comparef with bulgars but instead greek or serb or macedonian suppose would be better, its fucking insulting.

hahahah then compare yourself!!!! i don't care what you think cupcake

[Arcaius]

Go brush your teeth and wash that dirty mouth oo yours before you mention Albania or Bulgaria.

eeeeeewwwwww get away from me!!! you are doing it again

[Arcaius]

Arcaius, smiri se malce.

.... i jas mislam taka :thumbs up... ama ke gi pomacam uste malku :D
i taka ne obozavaat ;)

[zlakopistou]

In the course of my stay in Macedonia, I travelled on horseback over seven hundred miles through country which for the most part has never seen a European

[morski]

.... I jas mislam taka :thumbs up... Ama ke gi pomacam uste malku :d
i taka ne obozavaat ;)

Никого не мъчиш. А, и както каза Бугараш в една друга тема, все по-малко стават българите, които таят некаква симпатия и топли чувства към вас. Все повече стават тези от нас, които не искат да чуват нищо за сърбоманите отатък Осогово.

[Bugarash]

Macedonia in WW2

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Map_of_Bulgaria_during_WWII.png

[Arcaius]

Никого не мъчиш. А, и както каза Бугараш в една друга тема, все по-малко стават българите, които таят некаква симпатия и топли чувства към вас. Все повече стават тези от нас, които не искат да чуват нищо за сърбоманите отатък Осогово.

if i understand right.... and it wont kill you to type with latin letters next time :),
the feeling is mutual... so we both agree... and i'm happy about it :thumbs up
hopefully bugarash will become the same,and cut the crap :D

[morski]

if i understand right.... And it wont kill you to type with latin letters next time :),
the feeling is mutual... So we both agree... And i'm happy about it :thumbs up
hopefully bugarash will become the same,and cut the crap :d

Нашата азбука е кирилицата.

[Arcaius]

Нашата азбука е кирилицата.

sekako.. ali nemam jas takvi bukvi kakvo sto upotrabuvas ti :)... i za da razberam sto pisuvas treba da tumacham ... zatoa vaka
no fuss no buzz :D and nobody will have hard feelings

[morski]

sekako.. ali nemam jas takvi bukvi kakvo sto upotrabuvas ti :)... i za da razberam sto pisuvas treba da tumacham ... zatoa vaka
no fuss no buzz :D and nobody will have hard feelings

Nashinskio ne izgleda ubavo koga se pishe s latinsko pismo.:D

[Arcaius]

hahah dude.. just cut the sh with s and it will be fine :D i'm getting headache while tried to read that,jk

[ioan assen]

hahah dude.. just cut the sh with s and it will be fine :D i'm getting headache while tried to read that,jk
As far as I understand from your posts you are a serboman. When I adress the Macedonian brothers I exclude people like you BY definition. So you shouldnt take part in relations between Bulgarians and Macedonians, because its the core of your being to demonize it. Unfortunately (for you) people like you are smaller and smaller and smaller.

[Linet]

edit

[ioan assen]

I also disagree with you :wink....

1. The Peonians, either they vanished miracusly :flamed: (there is no written evidence of a massacre from any Greek and Roman source and as you well know, if anything like that had happened they would have refered it in order to show the Barbarism of the Slavs) ...either they mixed with the newcomers :naughty: (Slavs.)
...Since there is not even a hint for a genocide :rip: , we can only assume that they mixed with the newcomers. Slavs never had any second thoughts at mixing with locals and Peonians were also a peasant tribe that didnt have mixing perservation ideals so i cant see why it wouldnt happen...:icon_ask:.
Jiricek line anyone? According to him (and its accepted by the majority of the historians) at the time when the foreigners started to make expeditions into the Byzantine empire, the natives on the Balkans were majorly hellenized (south Bulgaria) or romanized (north Bulgaria). So you can not devide the Peopnians from the other Thracians. Basically the same thing happened with all the native folk of the Thracians.


2. About the Thracians, let me answer you with a real example :book2:.
...The famous emperor Julian :biggrin that lived at the first half of the 3rd century was considered Greek and he is the one who tried to revive the glory of his ancestors=Greeks. If we see the reason why everybody, including himself, consider him Greek you ll see that his Greek ancestry is...Thracian from Bithynia. Thracians allready at the dawn of the 3rd century were considered fully Greeks.

Julian (Latin: Flavius Claudius Julianus Augustus, Greek: Φλάβιος Κλαύδιος Ἰουλιανός Αὔγουστος;[1] 331/332[2] – 26 June 363), commonly known as Julian the Apostate, or also Julian the Philosopher, was Roman Emperor from 361 to 363 and a noted philosopher and Greek writer..
As I mentioned: even as late as 7th century there are sources which talk about Bessian language and the Bessi were Thracians. So the fact that an emperor Julian is Greek and he comes from Thacian lands doesnt proove much: Greek collonies existed in Thrace for centuries. This however is not an indication for the whole populace of Thrace.



...So 400 years later when Slavs came to the area, you must not think of them as Thracians but as Greeks.
... So they acted accordingly, Greek population movement etc.
...As you well know, one of the most basic morals of the Greeks is the "do not mix"... but even if it wasnt...think of the difference in culture and lifestyle of the Slavs that had just reached the area and the Greeks of the area (Thracians) that were elites at the time since they were in such proximity to teh Glorius Constantinoupolis and their lands were like aristocratic suburbs.
You can not attribute Greek characters from 18-19 century back to 5-6th century a.d. I can proove to you that intermixing happened alot in Middle Ages and it happened in the royal family too: I cant really remember how many Greek princesses were married to Bulgarian kings.
I dont think you are right when you apply the modern idea of ethnicity and nation to people that lived in 7-8 century a.d. I think the people in Thrace at those times were Roman citizens: how they felt, its very debatable, but I m sure that if we talk about the peasants, they were probably inclided to switch to any ethnicity and to grant their loyality to any state if it meant lower taxes and if it garanteed him/her safety. Thus I can not see any real argument prooving that the slavs in Macedonia mixed with the Thracian Peonians, but the Bulgarian slavs in Thrace didnt.

[Arcaius]

As far as I understand from your posts you are a serboman. When I adress the Macedonian brothers I exclude people like you BY definition. So you shouldnt take part in relations between Bulgarians and Macedonians, because its the core of your being to demonize it. Unfortunately (for you) people like you are smaller and smaller and smaller.

shta prichas bre???? :D rofl

hahah are you blind or lame brain ? do i really look to you Serbian or pro Serbian???

do you see what i say? i don't like to be compared to you cupcake,i'm not Serbian...and i didnt want to be part of serbia :/ or anything close to it

and as mosrki said, Bulgarians that want anything with Macedonians are less and less,and don't sell me that brother crap!!! nobody wanna be your brother deal with it cupcake,i see you getting well with albos so go for it

and FYI i'm not proserbian... and if someone compare me with Serbian at least i wont take it a offence (but i WONT like it!!!!),no matter how much you like it cupcake you will never be considered brother with any of us :/

[Linet]

ioseen, i dont quote you, because is too big...

...you contradict yourself....in one hand you say that South Balkan population were hellenised but then you say the Thracians didnt. Not true..:nono:
Thracians first of all were Hellenised and very fierce loyal to their Hellenic identity... :viking1:

...And again i ask you to use logic... Hellenised people for centuries :old , that considered themselves Greeks, were well educated, part of a Glorius empire and lived in the high and elegant greek way of life, would marry - mix with the Slavs of the time? Think the cultural difference...:noidea:...just picture the Slavs when they reached the area...
...is like saying the whites liked the blacks when they first step foot in Africa or that the Romans wanted to assimilate with their barbaric slaves...it never happened....why it would happen with Greeks that were always against mixing? :confused:

[ioan assen]

I said that its quite accepted that the southern Balkans were hellenized, but as I told you there are indications that they were not or at least not fully (the Bessi). What I wanted to say is that we are far from certain what people and on which territory (modern Bulgaria, modern Macedonia) were hellenized, but its kind of funny that you mention that the Thracians in Bulgaria were surely helenized, but the Peonians werent. When we have indication for the opposite: Bessi are from Bulgarian Thrace, Rodopi mountains.
Linet, unfortunately what you posted after that are just assumptions. I dont think the Thracian peasants "considered themselves Greeks, were well educated, part of a Glorius empire and lived in the high and elegant greek way of life". Its just your asumption. In my oppinion that was not the case with the Thracian peasants: we cant be sure how the Thracians considered themselves, even if they were hellenized, they still might have thought of themselves as different from the other "proper" Greeks (actually I ve read a book I dont remember the title but it was about the preservance of the Thracian identity, it was on the internet, so the basic idea is that the Thracian did keep their identity, there were alot of Greek sources about it), I m sure they werent educated and didnt live "the high and elegant greek way of life". Most probably the thought of themselves as Roman sitizens but I m sure they didnt have big problem to switsh their loyality to the Bulgarian empire if that meant lesser taxes.

[Linet]

I said that its quite accepted that the southern Balkans were hellenized, but as I told you there are indications that they were not or at least not fully (the Bessi). What I wanted to say is that we are far from certain what people and on which territory (modern Bulgaria, modern Macedonia) were hellenized, but its kind of funny that you mention that the Thracians in Bulgaria were surely helenized, but the Peonians werent. When we have indication for the opposite: Bessi are from Bulgarian Thrace, Rodopi mountains.
Linet, unfortunately what you posted after that are just assumptions. I dont think the Thracian peasants "considered themselves Greeks, were well educated, part of a Glorius empire and lived in the high and elegant greek way of life". Its just your asumption. In my oppinion that was not the case with the Thracian peasants: we cant be sure how the Thracians considered themselves, even if they were hellenized, they still might have thought of themselves as different from the other "proper" Greeks (actually I ve read a book I dont remember the title but it was about the preservance of the Thracian identity, it was on the internet, so the basic idea is that the Thracian did keep their identity, there were alot of Greek sources about it), I m sure they werent educated and didnt live "the high and elegant greek way of life". Most probably the thought of themselves as Roman sitizens but I m sure they didnt have big problem to switsh their loyality to the Bulgarian empire if that meant lesser taxes.

They were the aristocratic :bow00001: suburbs ot Constantinoupolis :biggrin , where nobles lived :irminsul: ....i actually see no way that they werent :)..

...Its like saying that entire Europe was latinised but the area around Rome wasnt ...:wink

[morski]

I said that its quite accepted that the southern Balkans were hellenized, but as I told you there are indications that they were not or at least not fully (the Bessi). What I wanted to say is that we are far from certain what people and on which territory (modern Bulgaria, modern Macedonia) were hellenized, but its kind of funny that you mention that the Thracians in Bulgaria were surely helenized, but the Peonians werent. When we have indication for the opposite: Bessi are from Bulgarian Thrace, Rodopi mountains.
Linet, unfortunately what you posted after that are just assumptions. I dont think the Thracian peasants "considered themselves Greeks, were well educated, part of a Glorius empire and lived in the high and elegant greek way of life". Its just your asumption. In my oppinion that was not the case with the Thracian peasants: we cant be sure how the Thracians considered themselves, even if they were hellenized, they still might have thought of themselves as different from the other "proper" Greeks (actually I ve read a book I dont remember the title but it was about the preservance of the Thracian identity, it was on the internet, so the basic idea is that the Thracian did keep their identity, there were alot of Greek sources about it), I m sure they werent educated and didnt live "the high and elegant greek way of life". Most probably the thought of themselves as Roman sitizens but I m sure they didnt have big problem to switsh their loyality to the Bulgarian empire if that meant lesser taxes.

This. There were no Greeks in the early Middle Ages. There were only Eastern Romans.

[ioan assen]

i'm not proserbian... and if someone compare me with Serbian at least i wont take it a offence
yes you are. this very sentance proove it. you probably have serbian origin, but if you have macedonian, you must think what your grandpas from VMRO would ve thought about your attitude toward Bulgarians.

[Linet]

they were known as Greeks by all the West....and they had Greek conciousness... :rose:
....when Slavs reached the area.... Byzantium was allready fully Hellenised :)

[morski]

they were known as Greeks by all the West....and they had Greek conciousness... :rose:
....when Slavs reached the area.... Byzantium was allready fully Hellenised :)

The West may have called them Greeks (which is a Roman exonym for the Hellenes), but they called themselves Romaioi (Romans).

[Linet]

No. they called it Romioi and it was the name of the Greeks at that time.... Romios was only someone who was Byzantine of Greek ancestry, not the Armenian, nor anyone else....only the one of Greek blood.
Even today we refer to ourselves as Romiou and to our "Greekness" as Romiosini....its one of our ethnonyms :rose:

[ioan assen]

Well I m not talking about the suburbs of Constantinople but about Thrace and with this therm I mean the modern territory of Bulgaria which interest us at the moment. I mean the Getae on the north, the Medae and Serdi around Serdica (Sofia), the Bessi around Plovdiv, the Odrysians in southeastern Bulgaria, the Krobyzoi around Varna etc.

[Ushtari]

macedonia is independent and reborn, get over it hell-enes

[Linet]

Those arent far away of Constantinoupolis...
Thracians were the first to Hellenise, far before Constantinoupolis to be built there.... thats a historical fact....
i dont say that there is no Thracian blood to Bulgarians...what i say is that the main body of them retreated to the south to join the rest of the Greeks, since they were Greeks at that time themselves.

[morski]

No. they called it Romioi and it was the name of the Greeks at that time.... Romios was only someone who was Byzantine of Greek ancestry, not the Armenian, nor anyone else....only the one of Greek blood.
Even today we refer to ourselves as Romiou and to our "Greekness" as Romiosini....its one of our ethnonyms :rose:

That's rather hard to believe, since it was an empire and not a nation state.

[ioan assen]

....when Slavs reached the area.... Byzantium was allready fully Hellenised :)
But Macedonia was part of the Byzantine empire. So how did the Peonians survived unhellenized to mix with the arriving slavs (which you accept in your posts), but their eastern neighbours Maedi, Serdi, Odrysians, Bessi - were all hellenized and you are sure they didnt mix with the slavs in Bulgaria (mind you the Bessi are the last Thracians mentioned in history, not the Peonians). Double standart?

[morski]

Those arent far away of Constantinoupolis...
Thracians were the first to Hellenise, far before Constantinoupolis to be built there.... thats a historical fact....
i dont say that there is no Thracian blood to Bulgarians...what i say is that the main body of them retreated to the south to join the rest of the Greeks, since they were Greeks at that time themselves.

That's more or less correct in my mind. We mixed with the Hellenised Thracians South of the Hemus mountain to some degree, but we mixed even more with the Latinized Thracians between Hemus and the Danube.

[Arcaius]

yes you are. this very sentance proove it. you probably have serbian origin, but if you have macedonian, you must think what your grandpas from VMRO would ve thought about your attitude toward Bulgarians.

cupcake i'm from south Macedonia and my grand grandfather was from today's greece from a village there :/ so what the hell are you talking about

no matter what i what you try you wont get my love baby... so shooooooo

and i'm not proserbian cupcake,i just dont wanna be compared with you,deal with it

ofcourse they had "good" atitude... they were the muscle power for killing turks in macedonia :/ so what? and what does vmro have with anything with how we feel... if someone from here loves you then he can say ... no i love bulgars... and again since i dont wanna compare with you you take it as offence??? why is that i wonder?
i said my reason why i get offended when i do get compared :/ what is yours sunshine?

[Linet]

I ve posted quotes and history :book2: of the time countless times.... history says so...i wont disagree even for the known facts... Byzantium was a Hellenic empire...

Apart from that...Bulgarians also have Tataric blood in far larger extent :wink...so why dont you claim Turcik ancestry :chin: ? ...
Today Thracians are now Greeks and today Tatars are not Turks... Bulgarians have taken some blood from both but that doesnt make them neither Turks, neither Thracians-Greeks...:eyes

[morski]

cupcake i'm from south macedonia sunsine and my grand grandfather was from today's greece from a village there :/ so what the hell are you talking about

no matter what i what you try you wont get my love baby... so shooooooo

and i'm not proserbian cupcake,i just dont wanna be compared with you,deal with it

ofcourse they had "good" atitude... they were the muscle power for killing turks in macedonia :/ so what? and what does vmro have with anything with how we feel... if someone from here loves you then he can say ... no i love bulgars... and again since i dont wanna compare with you you take it as offence??? why is that i wonder?
i said my reason why i get offended when i do get compared :/ what is yours sunshine?

Rather gay, don't you think?:D

[Arcaius]

Well I m not talking about the suburbs of Constantinople but about Thrace and with this therm I mean the modern territory of Bulgaria which interest us at the moment. I mean the Getae on the north, the Medae and Serdi around Serdica (Sofia), the Bessi around Plovdiv, the Odrysians in southeastern Bulgaria, the Krobyzoi around Varna etc.

cut the crap... you always wanted access to the agean sea... you sold your ass to the Germans in order to do it.. and still you didn't succeed ... so?? what is in your interest cupcake?

[Arcaius]

Rather gay, don't you think?:D

oh common dude... i started to like you... dont be lame brain now :/

you know exactly how and why it's said

[morski]

I ve posted quotes and history :book2: of the time countless times.... history says so...i wont disagree even for the known facts... Byzantium was a Hellenic empire...

Apart from that...Bulgarians also have Tataric blood in far larger extent :wink...so why dont you claim Turcik ancestry :chin: ? ...
Today Thracians are now Greeks and today Tatars are not Turks... Bulgarians have taken some blood from both but that doesnt make them neither Turks, neither Thracians-Greeks...:eyes

That's inaccurate.


This may have been a Hellenic empire:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Eastern_Mediterranean_1450_.svg

However, this was certainly not:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Justinian555AD.png

[ioan assen]

Haha, very lovable language - you do sound horny.
Now the truth in my oppinion: well I think that VMRO and their activists should be a good indication of how and what a real Macedonian should feel towards the Bulgarians. As far as I know most Macedoniands do consider them the founders of presentday Macedonia and a big part of them was their Bulgarian selfidentification. So for me its kind of ironic for a Macedonian who considers them his forefathers to hate Bulgarians and to demand Macedonians to not be compared to Bulgarians.
I actually didnt get the reason why you feel offended to be compared to us.

[Linet]

1450 was just 3 years before the total fall of the empire....i really dont get what you mean by this map :noidea:
....After 1453 there was only Othoman empire both here and there and everywhere in the Balkans...does that make you happy? :1099: ....stange taste :eyes

[Linet]

Haha, very lovable language - you do sound horny.
Now the truth in my oppinion: well I think that VMRO and their activists should be a good indication of how and what a real Macedonian should feel towards the Bulgarians. As far as I know most Macedoniands do consider them the founders of presentday Macedonia and a big part of them was their Bulgarian selfidentification. So for me its kind of ironic for a Macedonian who considers them his forefathers to hate Bulgarians and to demand Macedonians to not be compared to Bulgarians.
I actually didnt get the reason why you feel offended to be compared to us.

If there was a real Macedon, he would feel nothing towards Bulgarians.... :wink
....but yes....they arent at all, they are just Slavs like you.... :tongue...so far from Macedons :coffee:

[ioan assen]

I ve posted quotes and history :book2: of the time countless times.... history says so...i wont disagree even for the known facts... Byzantium was a Hellenic empire...
True, but at its height it was multicultural empire.



Apart from that...Bulgarians also have Tataric blood in far larger extent :wink...so why dont you claim Turcik ancestry :chin: ? ...
And you know that ... because? Tataric blood? Obviouslly you know nothing about our history. Our greatest enemy in the Middle Ages: the tatars.


Thracians-Greeks...:eyes
I think there is a good reason why those two were always mentioned as two different people. Never were they the same people.

[morski]

1450 was just 3 years before the total fall of the empire....i really dont get what you mean by this map :noidea:
....After 1453 there was only Othoman empire both here and there and everywhere in the Balkans...does that make you happy? :1099: ....stange taste :eyes

I already told you that comprehension problems are a bummer, didn't I? :)

The smaller version of the empire was surely Hellenic, but the bigger version contained a lot of other ethnicities as well and all were Roman citizens, so it coudn't have been a Hellenic empire for it's entire existence.

[Arcaius]

Haha, very lovable language - you do sound horny.
Now the truth in my oppinion: well I think that VMRO and their activists should be a good indication of how and what a real Macedonian should feel towards the Bulgarians. As far as I know most Macedoniands do consider them the founders of presentday Macedonia and a big part of them was their Bulgarian selfidentification. So for me its kind of ironic for a Macedonian who considers them his forefathers to hate Bulgarians and to demand Macedonians to not be compared to Bulgarians.
I actually didnt get the reason why you feel offended to be compared to us.

cupcake i am horny but you will have to deal with it for now...

and you invaded "your brother's" in the second world war... and as we said,you were the muscles for liberation,i never said we were strong country or with many firearms to get rid of the Turks,so that's the whole bulgar-mak love story...if we are one why did you change our surnames while we were under your occupation?

anyway that's history and i dont care about that... and we all know why you love us so much,and for some reason you are the ones who want's Macedonia to be part of Bulgaria... i have never said any of us say... bulgars are our people... we are one country :/... "as priznavam vi drzavata ali horata e nasha" i hope i spelled it right,and guess what it was said by you...not by us... nobody feels one with the Bulgarians... so sod off

[Linet]

True, but at its height it was multicultural empire.


And you know that ... because? Tataric blood? Obviouslly you know nothing about our history. Our greatest enemy in the Middle Ages: the tatars.

I think there is a good reason why those two were always mentioned as two different people. Never were they the same people.



1. I agree, multiculural :gossip: in its start but then it was rapidy Hellenised :rose: and when Slavs reached the area Greek was already the official language....:coffee:

2. In this...you have to solve it with Armani , your co-patriot, that in another thread he had fights with the Turks :fencing: who is the more Tataric...Turks or Bulgars...

3. I only call them like that in order to separate them from the rest of the Greeks :grouphug: since we talk about them spesicicaly....but ok....from now on i ll only refer to them with their nationality, not their tribe :wink

[morski]

cupcake i am horny but you will have to deal with it for now...

and you invaded "your brother's" in the second world war... and as we said,you were the muscles for liberation,i never said we were strong country or with many firearms to get rid of the Turks,so that's the whole bulgar-mak love story...if we are one why did you change our surnames while we were under your occupation?

anyway that's history and i dont care about that... and we all know why you love us so much,and for some reason you are the ones who want's Macedonia to be part of Bulgaria... i have never said any of us say... bulgars are our people... we are one country :/... "as priznavam vi drzavata ali horata e nasha" i hope i spelled it right,and guess what it was said by you...not by us... nobody feels one with the Bulgarians... so sod off

We did invade the kingdom of Yugoslavia.

If we did indeed make changes to your surnames it was only to undo the changes made by the Serbs.

[Arcaius]

We did invade the kingdom of Yugoslavia.

If we did indeed make changes to your surnames it was only to undo the changes made by the Serbs.

yup damn you are good :coffee: because we were named dejkovich and not Dejkovski :/ :thumbs up

learn the diference between our surenames... serb macedonians and bulgarians


and i wonder why we didn't see you as liberators but as the ocupators ;)

[morski]

1. I agree, multiculural :gossip: in its start but then it was rapidy Hellenised :rose: and when Slavs reached the area Greek was already the official language....:coffee:

2. In this...you have to solve it with Armani , your co-patriot, that in another thread he had fights with the Turks :fencing: who is the more Tataric...Turks or Bulgars...

3. I only call them like that in order to separate them from the rest of the Greeks :grouphug: since we talk about them spesicicaly....but ok....from now on i ll only refer to them with their nationality, not their tribe :wink

That's a rather lame argument. The sole official language in the republic of Bulgaria is Bulgarian, yet there are plenty of people who speak other languagues at home. French is the official lang of France, yet 200 years ago it was spoken by no more than half the population. Hell, before we codified and adopted the Old Bulgarian lang as the official lang of the First Bulgarian Empire guess which was the official lang? Greek! Does this make the FBE a Greek state and its inhabitants Greeks?!:D:D

[Linet]

....As i said....i wont disagree for the basic facts.... i dont have to convince someone that as it seems doesnt even know basic history :rolleyes:
....if you want to read what Byzantium was...open a book :book2:
....till then...see ya :wink

[morski]

yup damn you are good :coffee: because we were named dejkovich and not Dejkovski :/ :thumbs up

learn the diference between our surenames... serb macedonians and bulgarians


and i wonder why we didn't see you as liberators but as the ocupators ;)

A good portion of you saw us as liberators indeed! Ever heard of the Macedonian action committees? Ever saw futage from the welcoming of the Bulgarian troops? Ever heard the stories of how the MAcedonian soldiers in the Yugoslav army surrendered en masse to the Germans with the words "Bulgar!Bulgar!"?

[morski]

....As i said....i wont disagree for the basic facts.... i dont have to convince someone that as it seems doesnt even know basic history :rolleyes:
....if you want to read what Byzantium was...open a book :book2:
....till then...see ya :wink

Yeah, right... :rolleyes:

[Arcaius]

OMG where do you dig these stories i really don't know... who the hell will surrender from the army... really where did you get these stories... my grand father was in the army... and my grandmother remembers only Bulgarian occupation and how it was crime punishable by death if you don't say you are Bulgarian :/ so wtf

sunshine face it! nobody likes to be your "brothers" so why are you trying to convince me that i like you??? isn't that a bit sad? go cry to the Turks,they are close to you...
do you know how lame it is to go to someone and to nagg "you love me ... and he says NO.... and you continue but you love me.. you know you love me "

[ioan assen]

Obviously you dont love Bulgarians which makes you good serboman. Back to mama Serbia.

[Arcaius]

Obviously you dont love Bulgarians which makes you good serboman. Back to mama Serbia.

no cupcake i'm Macedonian.. and i'm unique just like you are and serbs are and croats and bosnians and all the slavs around...
and i really sont get your obsession with us,we dont want to be wiiiitttthhhh yyyooooouuuu, why do you insist on gaining our love are you so alone and afraid?

and somebody here has really big problem with Serbs as it seams i wont say names,and they suppose to be exactly as we are to you... ALL BROTHERS but with different mother

[Onur]

1. I agree, multiculural :gossip: in its start but then it was rapidy Hellenised :rose: and when Slavs reached the area Greek was already the official language....:coffee:
It was multicultural from start `till it`s end.

If you like, i can show you some notes of western travelers from 14th century which indicates that there are was more than 15 different ethnic groups and spoken languages only in the city of Istanbul.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I see Linet is one of these loony Greeks who claim everything on the Balkans including Thrace was Greek. :loco: Voting Golden Dawn must have melted her brain a quite bit... Macedonia belongs to Macedonians, Thrace including Western and Eastern parts belong to Bulgarians and only Greece from Thessaly to Peloponnese belong to nea-Ellines. :coffee:

[Linet]

It was multicultural from start `till it`s end.

If you like, i can show you some notes of western travelers from 14th century which indicates that there are was more than 15 different ethnic groups and spoken languages only in the city of Istanbul.

...do so :thumb001: , just make a new thread about Byzanitum mr Mod :biggrin so we can have our fights :aufsmaul_2: freely...:evil

[Archduke]

if i understand right.... and it wont kill you to type with latin letters next time :),
the feeling is mutual... so we both agree... and i'm happy about it :thumbs up
hopefully bugarash will become the same,and cut the crap :D

I thought that Cyril and Methodius and their students were 100% Macedonian? Why you Macedonians aren't proud if their invention? :mmmm:

[Archduke]

2. In this...you have to solve it with Armani , your co-patriot, that in another thread he had fights with the Turks :fencing: who is the more Tataric...Turks or Bulgars...

again, you proved that you know nothing about our history.

I was trying to say that tatars are more related to us than to central asians or turks, if you didn't understand that then you are rather dumb. And yes, we have "Tataric" blood, but it's much lesser than the Thracians blood in us. :thumb001:

[poiuytrewq0987]

again, you proved that you know nothing about our history.

I was trying to say that tatars are more related to us than to central asians or turks, if you didn't understand that then you are rather dumb. And yes, we have "Tataric" blood, but it's much lesser than the Thracians blood in us. :thumb001:

Nea-Ellines are more mixed anyhow since they absorbed a lot of Pontic immigrants who were already quite mixed with Turks and other Anatolian peoples.

[Archduke]

Nea-Ellines are more mixed anyhow since they absorbed a lot of Pontic immigrants who were already quite mixed with Turks and other Anatolian peoples.

that's why greeks look like arabs. :D

[poiuytrewq0987]

that's why greeks look like arabs. :D

And some of them actually look like light-skinned Mexicans I have seen here. :eek:

[Arcaius]

I thought that Cyril and Methodius and their students were 100% Macedonian? Why you Macedonians aren't proud if their invention? :mmmm:

Well cupcake the guy that invented the actual Cyrillic alphabet...not the glagolica from Kiril and metodij, hmmm ok made it "acceptable" to all Slavs...and the guy who gave the name to the alphabet kirilica in honor of kiril,that was naum from OHRID....kiril and metodij were not totally Slavic...they had one parent slav and the other Greek if I recall correctly ...and what do they have to do with being proud and the fact we dont want to be compared nowhere close with you?

[Queen B]

This. There were no Greeks in the early Middle Ages. There were only Eastern Romans.
They went in a time portal, I guess. They suddenly dissapeared and re-apeared in modern times. :lol:

That's rather hard to believe, since it was an empire and not a nation state.
It was an empire that was different from the Roman.
Why Roman and Eastern Roman (later called as Byzantine) was different (although in many sources is called as the kingdom of Greeks) ?
Maybe, because it was something different than the Roman?
Why it turned to Greek-cultured, Greek-speaking empire?
Out of nothing? Obviously not :coffee:
I see Linet is one of these loony Greeks who claim everything on the Balkans including Thrace was Greek. :loco: Voting Golden Dawn must have melted her brain a quite bit... Macedonia belongs to Macedonians, Thrace including Western and Eastern parts belong to Bulgarians and only Greece from Thessaly to Peloponnese belong to nea-Ellines. :coffee:
Do they have maps in your country?