Maps of Macedonia

[Vojnik]

Post historical and ethnographic maps of Macedonia.

I will start off with two maps published in the ASIA journal in 1918, The Balkans and the Near East.



Title page
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/asia_december_1918-p000.jpg

Page 997
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/asia_december_1918-p997.jpg

Page 999
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/asia_december_1918-p999.jpg

These maps seems to be based on the map by G. Soteriadis which was also made in 1918, namely this one;

Hellenism in the Near East
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/HellenismintheNearEast-1918-50.jpg

__________________________________________________ ___________________________

I like seeing any type of historical maps, so if you have any regarding Macedonia, feel free to post them. Please do not troll this thread with unrelated maps and topics

[poiuytrewq0987]

Well, ethnographic maps made by that Athens university professor and Cvijic who included Macedonian Slavs on maps only did that to marginalize Bulgarian influence in the region. Greece back then was claiming all Slavs in the Macedonia region were Slavophone Greeks who just needed to rediscover our Hellenic identity... and Serbs and Macedonism you know how that goes.


Cvijich's map on linguistic areas:

http://ceb.revues.org/docannexe/image/782/img-6.jpg

A British-made map, possibly used Cvijic's map as reference:

http://ceb.revues.org/docannexe/image/782/img-7.jpg

Soteradis' map:

http://ceb.revues.org/docannexe/image/782/img-8.jpg

[Crn Volk]

Roman Macedonia;

http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/maps/fullmap2.jpg

French Map - 1800's

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/CartecommercialedelaprovincedeMacdo.jpg

German Map, 1912;

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Vlker-undSprachenkartederBalkan-Hal.jpg

[Queen B]

1621
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/claudiusptolemaeus.jpg
1624
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/mapofhellas1624.jpg
1628
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/MuensterSebastian.jpg
1666
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/BlaeuJoanGuiljelmusGraecia1666.jpg
1581
http://img204.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-6301/loc26/96109_Graeciae_Universae_Secundum_Hodiernum_Situm_ Neoterica_Descriptio_-_Ortelius_A_1581_122_26lo.jpg
1600
http://img130.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-5494/loc790/96107_Graecia_-_Mercator-Hondius_1600-1630_122_790lo.jpg
1645
http://img231.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-7238/loc501/96095_Graecia_-_Blaeu_W_J__ca1645_122_501lo.jpg
1745
http://img128.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-27093/loc1012/46013_Carte_de_la_Gr0ce_-_De_L62Isle_-_Buache_ca1745_122_1012lo.jpg
1742
http://img18.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-21812/loc1144/48001_Graeciae_pars_Septentrionalis_-_by_Lisle7_Guillaume_de5_1675-1726_published_by_Covens_et_Mortier_1742_122_1144l o.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

Danny boy, this thread is not about maps of Greece but Macedonia... nice try though. ;)

[Queen B]

Dumbo, I didn't post anything different thatn you did.:cool:

[Flintlocke]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m722fmVPVa1qd9bbdo1_1280.jpg

Much better than your maps :cool:

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m722fmVPVa1qd9bbdo1_1280.jpg

Much better than your maps :cool:

Damn, danny has a nice ass!

[~Nik~]

German Map, 1912;

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Vlker-undSprachenkartederBalkan-Hal.jpg

Oh well, there are some disturbing informations also. :D

[Crn Volk]

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia3.jpg

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia1.jpg

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia2.jpg

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia4.jpg

[Petros Houhoulis]

Danny boy, this thread is not about maps of Greece but Macedonia... nice try though. ;)

...And all of those maps were printed at a time when none of your ancestors had any idea of what Macedonia was.

...Not that you got much better nowadays...

[forsaken]

http://kroraina.com/makedonija/Karti/Ethno/1873balcani8cl.jpg
The Balkans in 1873.
(Source: Stieler-Berghaus E., Atlante scolastico per la geografia politica e fisica, Carta de’ popoli europei, tav. n. 14, G. Perthes-Gotha, ed. 1873

http://kroraina.com/makedonija/Karti/Ethno/mackenzie.jpg
Map of G. M. Mackenzie and A.P. Irby, British (1867). The two ladies, Mackenzie and Irby, traveled through the Balkans to explore the ethnography of the peninsula.

http://kroraina.com/makedonija/Karti/Ethno/sax.jpg
Map of K. Sax, Austrian (1878). Karl Sax was a consul of the Austria-Hungary Empire at Adrianople. He was well acquainted with Balkan affairs and had cultivated an intellectual interest in cartography. He made use of previous maps and official reports of populations by Austrian and Bulgarian offices.

http://kroraina.com/makedonija/Karti/Ethno/british42.jpg
British P.C.G.N. (1942). The Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British Official Use produced this map in 1942. The method used was a simple shading of linguistic zones.

http://kroraina.com/makedonija/Karti/Ethno/kiepert.jpg
Map of H. Kiepert, German (1876). Kiepert was a professor at the University of Berlin. He had knowledge of Balkan history. He also inquired in official sources in Istanbul and was influenced by the Greek historian P. Aravantinos (1856-7).

http://kroraina.com/makedonija/Karti/Ethno/lejean.jpg
Map of G. Lejean, French (1861). Lejean was sent in a journey to the Ottoman Empire to gather information for the French government. His observances of the ethnic composition of the areas he visited produced this map.

http://kroraina.com/makedonija/Karti/Ethno/VolkerkartevonMittel-undSudosteuropa.jpg
Racial map of central and South Europe. Taken from F. W. Putzgers Historischer Schul-Atlas, 1905

http://kroraina.com/makedonija/Karti/Ethno/slaveni-karta.jpg
Etnographical map of Slavs, end of 19th beginning of 20th century.

http://kroraina.com/makedonija/Karti/Ethno/Europavolkerundsprachenkarte.jpg
German map of the peoples and languages of Europe, end of 19th century

http://kroraina.com/makedonija/Karti/Ethno/1880-geoturkeyethnographical.jpg
Ethnographical map of Turkey in Europe, 19th century

[forsaken]

http://i40.tinypic.com/e87n1x.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/kaoa2u.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/j0zo2a.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/20l1aic.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/qn2wyb.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2f0ablv.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2upehax.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/25g6noi.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2wn0bja.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/jgnksx.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/rvvqcl.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/5luc9i.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/nedu1y.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/90brio.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/28je8u9.jpg

[forsaken]

http://i43.tinypic.com/bfjh1z.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2059qc3.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/nx51km.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/353831v.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/bhdn3r.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2j6917s.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/156d5c6.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/9sw2go.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/k71i9.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2k25uu.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/qp5x1v.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/qp5x1v.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/do9jz8.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/28jlcvk.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/vexb9j.jpg

[forsaken]

http://i39.tinypic.com/r7rnm1.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/34xm880.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2hqf2gm.jpg

[Midori]

Sup Bugarash/Dusan

[Sultan Suleiman]

The bets are on ladies and gentlemen, which Bulgarian member didn't have the balls to say this in face and made a clone account?

[Dilberth]

...

[Archduke]

Nice maps, good work forsaken. :D

[forsaken]

Hello friends, thanks for the warm welcome. :)

[Coolguy1]

I have a revised version of kanchovs map that i have made, it corrects his mistakes, however i have it on my home computer

[forsaken]

Greece back then was claiming all Slavs in the Macedonia region were Slavophone Greeks who just needed to rediscover our Hellenic identity...
This is true. Though it is important to remember that before they labeled the Slavic speaking population of Macedonia as 'Slavophone Greeks', they claimed them as 'Bulgarophone Greeks'.

Much like Serbian (and later Yugoslav) politics, Greece wanted to detach the Slavic speaking population of Macedonia from their Bulgarian identity. And as time went by, Greek politicians of the time got smarter.. replacing the 'Bulgarophone Greeks' label with 'Slavophone Greeks'.

[Xenomorph]

This should be the borders of Macedonia:

http://qed.princeton.edu/getfile.php?f=Empire_of_Alexander_the_Great.png

[Crn Volk]

This is true. Though it is important to remember that before they labeled the Slavic speaking population of Macedonia as 'Slavophone Greeks', they claimed them as 'Bulgarophone Greeks'.

Much like Serbian (and later Yugoslav) politics, Greece wanted to detach the Slavic speaking population of Macedonia from their Bulgarian identity. And as time went by, Greek politicians of the time got smarter.. replacing the 'Bulgarophone Greeks' label with 'Slavophone Greeks'.

It's all good now, Greece and Bulgaria are allies against independent Macedonia today.

[ioan assen]

Great maps forsaken.

[Crn Volk]

Why are there so many threads on Maps of Macedonia. Can't we just consolidate them into one? eg., the sticky thread.

Anyhow, here's a thread I started in the bulgaria forum on historic maps of bulgaria;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1050103#post1050103

[Crn Volk]

The bets are on ladies and gentlemen, which Bulgarian member didn't have the balls to say this in face and made a clone account?

One of the banned ones I guess

[forsaken]

It's all good now, Greece and Bulgaria are allies against independent Macedonia today.
There is no such alliance 'against' Macedonia. Bulgaria merely opposes the unfounded and inaccurate claims on historical figures and events.

[forsaken]

One of the banned ones I guess
You don't know me, nor have you ever known me.. but you will in time.

[morski]

Butthurt Yugoslavs will be butthurt Yugoslavs.:shrug::D

[Midori]

Butthurt Yugoslavs will be butthurt Yugoslavs.:shrug::D

Why would we be butthurt? Our country isn't part of Bulgaria. Those are just pictures.

[Crn Volk]

There is no such alliance 'against' Macedonia. Bulgaria merely opposes the unfounded and inaccurate claims on historical figures and events.

For what purpose?

[Crn Volk]

Roman Macedonia;

http://2guysreadinggibbon.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/map740px-roman_provinces_of_illyricum_macedonia_moesia_pann onia_and_thracia.jpg

http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/maps/fullmap2.jpg

[Coolguy1]

http://i1071.photobucket.com/albums/u511/Sorcelow/abalkanserbs19142jk9.jpg

[Crn Volk]

http://i1071.photobucket.com/albums/u511/Sorcelow/abalkanserbs19142jk9.jpg

Interesting map of Aegean Macedonia, and how Slavic Macedonians are separate from Bulgarians and Serbs.
Seems to much up with the following maps;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1017424&postcount=1

[Coolguy1]

Interesting map of Aegean Macedonia, and how Slavic Macedonians are separate from Bulgarians and Serbs.
Seems to much up with the following maps;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1017424&postcount=1

yea, the reason is because the dialect spoken east of the Kilkis mountains is related more to Bulgarian, also the majority of the slavophones in that area identified as Bulgarians rather than Macedoians

[Crn Volk]

yea, the reason is because the dialect spoken east of the Kilkis mountains is related more to Bulgarian, also the majority of the slavophones in that area identified as Bulgarians rather than Macedoians

That's a fair point, and also explains why most went to Bulgaria rather than Yugoslav Macedonia in the population swaps, or as refugees later.

[Coolguy1]

That's a fair point, and also explains why most went to Bulgaria rather than Yugoslav Macedonia in the population swaps, or as refugees later.

I consider this map the most accurate, its based off of Kanchov's except revised from my local knowledge of the area and other sources

[Crn Volk]

I consider this map the most accurate, its based off of Kanchov's except revised from my local knowledge of the area and other sources

Yes, it's pretty accurate.

[Crn Volk]

Hungarian ethnographic map, 1893-1897

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/balkan-neprajz_dka.jpg

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/p2n.jpg

[Vojnik]

I have merged the thread "ethongraphic maps of macedonia" into this thread.

[Vojnik]

Macedonia on a map by Comberford, 1626!

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/comberford_1626.jpg

[Vojnik]

http://www.wmw.ca/romemaps/romeover.gif

[Vojnik]

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/maps/fullmap3.jpg

[Vojnik]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Balkan_Wars_Boundaries.jpg

[Vojnik]

Macedonia and Hellass clearly separated. ;)

http://faq.macedonia.org/images/mac.empire.alex.jpg

[Vojnik]

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4402/divisionfullmap.gif

[kvarc]

Well, ethnographic maps made by that Athens university professor and Cvijic who included Macedonian Slavs on maps only did that to marginalize Bulgarian influence in the region. Greece back then was claiming all Slavs in the Macedonia region were Slavophone Greeks who just needed to rediscover our Hellenic identity... and Serbs and Macedonism you know how that goes.


Cvijich's map on linguistic areas:

http://ceb.revues.org/docannexe/image/782/img-6.jpg

A British-made map, possibly used Cvijic's map as reference:

http://ceb.revues.org/docannexe/image/782/img-7.jpg

Soteradis' map:

http://ceb.revues.org/docannexe/image/782/img-8.jpg

you do realise that Kumanovo is represented with Serbian majority in this maps?

[ioan assen]

Macedonia on a map by Comberford, 1626!

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/comberford_1626.jpg
It also shows Achea on the maps yet I dont belive Acheans lived south of the Macedonia in 1626. The westerns just placed the antient names regions on the map.

[Archduke]

It also shows Achea on the maps yet I dont belive Acheans lived south of the Macedonia in 1626.

The ancient Macedonian history books probably say otherwise. :p

[Crn Volk]

you do realise that Kumanovo is represented with Serbian majority in this maps?

Maybe that's why Dusan was a Serb until recently. Now he's a Bulgar though....

[poiuytrewq0987]

you do realise that Kumanovo is represented with Serbian majority in this maps?

Try to read my post than just take the maps I posted out of context! Because if you did, you would realize that Cvijic's maps are shit and politically motivated. Stojan and Jovan conspired together to try and Serbianize the mass non-Serbian population of Macedonia but clearly they failed because New Macedonians instead stayed with their newly-founded ethnicity rather than become Serbs! No one wants to be Serbian, poor Stojan and Jovan. :cry2

[poiuytrewq0987]

Maybe that's why Dusan was a Serb until recently. Now he's a Bulgar though....

Go find a new hobby because slandering posters is certainly not a very productive hobby!

[kvarc]

Try to read my post than just take the maps I posted out of context! Because if you did, you would realize that Cvijic's maps are shit and politically motivated. Stojan and Jovan conspired together to try and Serbianize the mass non-Serbian population of Macedonia but clearly they failed because New Macedonians instead stayed with their newly-founded ethnicity rather than become Serbs! No one wants to be Serbian, poor Stojan and Jovan. :cry2

the second map is not Cvijic, it`s British and it puts a much larger territory populated by Serbs than Cvijic does.

[kvarc]

Post historical and ethnographic maps of Macedonia.

I will start off with two maps published in the ASIA journal in 1918, The Balkans and the Near East.



Title page
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/asia_december_1918-p000.jpg

Page 997
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/asia_december_1918-p997.jpg

Page 999
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/asia_december_1918-p999.jpg

These maps seems to be based on the map by G. Soteriadis which was also made in 1918, namely this one;

Hellenism in the Near East
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/HellenismintheNearEast-1918-50.jpg

__________________________________________________ ___________________________

I like seeing any type of historical maps, so if you have any regarding Macedonia, feel free to post them. Please do not troll this thread with unrelated maps and topics

then there are these maps also

[kvarc]

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia3.jpg

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia1.jpg

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia2.jpg

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia4.jpg

or this..... look at Kumanovo

[morski]

Започнахме да обикаляме Кумановско, където сръбски чети се бяха вече появили за първи път и беха навлезли в Козячките села откъм Св. Прохор. Ние тогава със сърбите не се гонехме. Те беха които първи изнасилиха екзархистките села.

Наскоро, след сбирката Нунков замина на почивка в България, като за заместник остави Гроздан Башчауша. Това бе към края на 1904 г. и ние с групата започнахме да обикаляме по околията. По това време бе убит легалния работник-ръководител, на име Сотир Попандов, от гр. Куманово. Убит бе в Сърбия, на път за България, където отиваше по организационна работа. Той беше млад човек. Попандов е носел със себе си сумата от 350 - 400 лири. Издаден е бил от сръбския архиерейски наместник в Куманово - поп Ташко, по народност влах, от Крушово. Като се разбра, че поп Ташко, който се беше посърбил е издал работника, градското революционно тело на Куманово поиска от четата да го премахнем. Гроздан отговори, че ще изпрати хора, които да премахнат поп Ташко. После се тегли жребий и на мен се падна тая задача. Предреших се и влезех в Куманово, където престоях доста дълго време. Една безразсъдна постъпка на нашите хора в Куманово, беше дала на поп Ташко възможност да разбере за кроеното му убийство и той беше взел необходимите мерки. Наши безразсъдни лица беха завързали един куршум на къщната му порта, а също така му беха изпратили заплашителни писма. И турците поставиха в неговата къща цело отделение от 10-15 души войници, начело с един чауш, за да го охраняват. И винаги, когато поп Ташко излизаше вън до конака, където отиваше начесто, или пък в църква той винаги биваше съпровождан от 5-6 души аскер - патрул, та трудно беше да се издебне момент да се причака и убие. Сам не вървеше никъде. Той можеше да бъде премахнат, но лицето, което щеше да стреля по него или щеше да падне убито, или пък щеха да го заловят. И така, в очакване на удобен момент аз останах в Куманово около 30 дни. После изпратиха ми за другар още един четник. В Куманово по това време беше дошла и друга чета, а сръбската пропаганда започна вече да напира откъм “Св[ети] Прохор" .И силом навлизаше в селата: Байловци, Арбанашко с Кръстю Търговишки, от Прешовско, който като четник бе с нас. Имаше и други войводи, обаче имената им не мога да си спомня. Имаше един поп сърбоманин, на име Дичо, от с. Старо Нагоричени, който усърдно помагаше на сръбските чети. Техен шеф изглежда да беше някой сръбски офицер.

Нападението на сърбите през 1906-1907 г. не донесе нищо съществено за тях. Те палеха, задигаха стада и пр. Така например, село Ора нападнаха повече от 20 пъти. Нападението вършеха нощно време и задигаха всичко, каквото можеха, и се изтегляха в гората, или планината, като турските потери не ги преследваха, Също така, нападнаха и селото Канарево. Тук, при едно такова нападение убиха известния дедо Никола. Нападнати беха и селата: Свиланци, Челопек, Жегляни - почти всички села, които се беха повърнали. Сръбските чети броеха по 20-30 души. Вьн от това те водеха и много милиция от Прешовско, като ги насърчаваха във взимане на плячка. В селата, които ги приемаха, те заплащаха храната си и не събираха пари за оръжие. Всяка техна чета си имаше касиер. Имаше такъв случай в с. Малотино: явил се цел взвод сръбска войска, заедно с офицерите си, стояли няколко дни и после се изтеглили. Всички били във формите си. Селото е близо до сръбската граница и за една нощ можеше да се стигне до него. Сърбите не ги грозеше никаква опасност - границата бе близо, а и местността бе планинска. В завзетите от тях села обикновено се явяваше сръбски офицер в униформа, който събираше селяните и им държеше слово и след това си отиваше. Това сърбите правеха систематически и го използваха като средство за агитация. След влизането на четата в някое от селата, значи след завземането му, не след дълго ще следва и окръжния войвода, шефът на четите с отделение войници и офицери, ще съберат селяните, ще им държат речи и след това ще се отдръпнат пак в сръбско. През зимата на 1906 -1907 г. така се явяваха сръбските чети пред населението и това нещо естествено, правеше голямо впечатление на населението. Но въпреки всичко, ако четата на Байчев беше се заела с преследването на сърбите, докато те се намираха по балканските села, тя можеше, без много труд и жертви, да парира техното действие още в самото начало, защото борбата щеше да бъде на равна нога. Но какво стана? Сърбите, необезпокоявани от никого навлезеха в полето и тук вече задачата за техното прочистване ставаше по-трудна. Но и на сърбите задачата не бе лесна. Те обикновено нападаха зимно време и веднага се изтеглюваха. В полето това те не можеха да вършат. Сърбите имаха съчувствието на турската официална власт. Годините 1905 -1906 беха за нас години на високо напрежение. Български и сърбомански села, които беха свързани роднински, преустановиха своите взаимни посещения, защото отиде ли някой от селяните, които имаха омъжена дъщеря в сърбоманско село и пр., биваха задържани от сръбските чети и това стана причина да спрат абсолютно всякакви посещения от подобен характер. Преустановени беха също така и общите и междуселски събори, като всичко ставаше по отделно. Това продължи близо две години. После, през 1906-1907 г. сърбите отново завзеха повърналите се села и ги посърбиха. Посърбяването стана силом с палежи и грабежи и пр. Селата: Свиланци, Челопек. Койнци, Канарево и Ора бидоха на нова сметка посърбени и сърбите тук окончателно се затвърдиха; а в селата Облавци и Ругинци те не успеха да влезат. Тези села се намират от към Козяка и до днес си останаха първи българи. Често пъти се случваше селата да приемат и нас и сръбските чети; такъв бе случаят със с. Канарево-улучваше се едновременно и ние да сме отседнали в някоя от махалите на селото, а сръбската чета да е в друга махала на същото село.

През 1906 г. сърбите се опитаха да упражнят натиск и над Куманово. Така те бойкотираха чаршията на Загоричкия и Врански сокаци, като селата, които беха владени от тях вършеха покупките си от тази чаршия.Това положение трая близо две години - до хуриета. За тази цел имаше поставени селяни, които следеха за успешното провеждане на този план. Посърби ли се някой веднага започваха да пазаруват от него. Селяните от сърбоманските села пазаруваха само от сърбомани и пропагандата чрез този си бойкот искаше да посърби целия еснаф в гр. Куманово. Усилията им, обаче, останаха съвършено безрезултатни. Арнаутите, пък, от околните села, по нареждане на своя комитет, наречен Конгра, започнаха да пазаруват само от турски дюкяни. И това обаче не оказа никакво влияние. На нашите търговци - занаятчии не оставаше нищо друго, освен да реагират с предлагане на стоките си на по-ниски цени и, разбира се, това беше най-разумният начин за излизане от това тежко положение. Сърбоманите пък от своя страна, алчни за пари, искаха да се възползват богато от удалия им се случай и обираха селяните, които от пропагандата беха принудени да пазаруват от тях. Тези, които искаха да купуват от българи, вършеха това контрабанда - по скришни кюшета. Нашето революционно градско тело от своя страна нареди да се пращат клиенти от българските села в бойкотираната чаршия. Взимаше наш човек група селяни и ги водеше да пазаруват от някой български търговец, друг заведе друга група селяни, в друг дюкян, и така се поддържаше българският еснаф. Както споменах, това положение продължи до хуриета - от 1906 г. до 1908 г.

През този период ставаха непрекъснати нападения и палежи на селата: Канарево, Степанци, Жегняне, Челопек, Оглавци, Свиланци, Ора и Младо Нагоричане. Тези села през 1906 г. сърбите нападнаха веднаж непрекъснато през цели 14 нощи. Днес, нападнат това село, утре друго и т. н. и турците не ги преследваха, въпреки че имаше много турска войска. Ще дойде потеря, ще разбере за станалото и като им разправят селяните, че сръбски чети са извършили нападението, турците ще дадат съвет на селяните “да се бранят" и си отиде. Всички нападения ставаха с грабеж на едър и дребен добитък, задигане на покъщнина, предимно нови дрехи и чеизи на моми. Всичко задигнато се изкарваше към планината, към горното течение на река Пчиня, в посока на Враня. Дори имаше случаи задигнатият добитък да бъде прекарван във Враня. През тези няколко години задигнатият добитък възлизаше на хилядници. През тези нападения сърбите задигнаха 30-40 глави едър добитък и около 200-300 броя овце, като избиха и 5-6 души селяни. А те дадоха 9 души убити, като турците заловиха и един сръбски четник ранен. Малкото жертви от хора се дължи на обстоятелството, че селяните беха винаги нащрек и очакваха сръбските нападения. През различните нападения сърбите убиха около 20-30 души. Упорстваше ли някой от селяните да се посърби, издебваха случай и го убиваха. Ние, от Наша страна, започнахме да поставяме засади на по-видните сърбомани. Така че, те не смееха да идват на пазар, а беха принудени да обикалят чак през сръбско, Враня, към Прешевско. През 1907 г. граничните села имаха вече достатъчно пушки. Така например, село Младо Нагоричане, което е най-голямото село в Кумановско, разполагаше с повече от 200 пушки, село Облавци - повече от 60 пушки. Сега вече селата взеха защитата си в собствените ръце.

В Кумановско няма големи села. Най-голямото е, както казах вече, с. Младо Нагоричани. То броеше около 400 къщи. Тук имаше около 3-4-ма селски войвода Спиро Георгиев, който минаваше за главен войвода, Зафир Сайтов, Георги Лазаров и Спасов. Като се снабдиха селата с оръжие, те вече не търсеха защитата на околийската чета, а сами се бранеха по-ефикасно и с общи усилия срещу сръбските нападения. Види ли се опасност, всеки грабваше пушката и бранеше селото. Мине ли огънът, или появи ли се аскер, селянинът ставаше отново мирна рая.

Ние редко можехме да се срещнем със сръбските чети, въпреки че се търсехме. На два пъти се срещнахме в с. Ора и един път в с. Беляковци. При една засада ние успехме де убием един сърбин и да нараним друг. Раненият, турците успеха да заловят и така се откри цела афера( вероятно става въпрос за едно сражение, през май 1904 година, когато османските войски, пристигайки на местото на вече станалото сражение, откриха ранен сръбски четник. А в него, бе открит Уставът на “Сръбската четническа организация” – СЧО - б.а.) . Арестуваха много селяни от сърбоманските села. Както казах, със сърбите се срещнахме в с. Беляковци, където им поставихме засада и успехме да заловим един жив, убихме двама, а останалите се разбягаха. Ние не подозирахме, че са били в селото. След като ги открихме те избегаха към сръбската граница, към Козяк. Пак през това време, в с. Ячинци, отсам реката, ударихме на засада друга сръбска чета, която се връщаше от Велешко. Тя наброяваше около 20 души и пътуваше за Сърбия, ударихме яве в с. Ячинци, като убихме 4 души. Сърбоманските чети се движеха предимно през зимните нощи и в една нощ можеха да стигнат от Кумановско до Велешко, чак до село Рудник - Велешко. Като ги ударихме, те спряха вече да слизат надолу и село Кучкарево, което по-рано им даваше прием, сега вече отказа да им дава прием и стана българско.

След Михаил Чаков, за войвода в Кумановско пристигна Шиваров с група от 20 души. Той беше със задача да възвърне селата, които беха станали сърбомански, но не успя. Само селата, които обикаляхме си останаха наши. А пък Шиваров, вместо да обикаля селата, начесто отиваше в Куманово, гдето събираше пари за оръжие. Той бе родом, ако се не лъжа, откъм Тракия, (Чирпан?). Когато отиваше в града, той оставаше четата при мен. Един ден ни откриха в село Челопек-Кумановско. Това стана на 15. XI. 1905 г. Селото бе старо, сърбоманско, като половината бе българско, а другата половина - патриаршисти. После сърбите успеха да посърбят цялото село. Селяните се беха наговорили, когато се яви българска чета да я приемат и укрият, като сърбоманите също щели да сторят при идването на некоя сръбска чета. Така се наговорили селяните, за да се избегнат убийствата. Веднаж, българите от селото съобщават на сърбоманите, че ние се намираме в селото. Последните отиват и ни предават на турците. При завързалото се сражение ние успехме да убием около 16 души турци. После аскерът ни гони чак до Велес. А, махалата, в която бехме открити бе запалена. Сражението започна към обед. То бе доста голямо и от наша страна не падна никой. Шиваров тогава не се случи с нас, а дойде после от града и си замина за България. Беше възникнал конфликт - обвинен бе, че задирял жени, та мисля, че по тоя повод го обезоръжихме и после препратихме в България.

Из околията останахме пак същите, като сега за мой помощник стана Гоце Междуречки, родом от Кукушко, който с мене се движи 6 месеца.

В началото на 1906 г. с чета пристигна Боби Стойчев, а аз заминах на почивка в България, където не бех ходил повече от година и половина. Боби Стойчев, обикаляйки с Панчо Константинов района, биват открити във Ветренския манастир, гдето в завързалото се сражение дават 5-6 души убити и на сутринта се прикриват в с. Новачени, близо до Велес. След сражението Панчо Константинов влиза във Велес, където се укрива, а Боби Стойчев, връщайки се в Кумановско бива наново открит в с. Лугунци, гдето заедно с неколцина другари пада убит. Успява да се спаси едно отделение, което се беше откъснало още при първото сражение, останало при мана-стиря “Св[ети] Йоан". И така се ливидира с четата на Боби Стойчев.

В сражението при Лугунци загинаха 15 души, а успяха да се спасят само 9 души. Боби Стойчев имаше слабост да си попива, и доста начесто се напиваше и не умееше да се предпазва, иначе като войвода той бе добър. Както убийството на Боби Стойчев, така и това на Нунков ме завариха на почивка в България.

Обвиняват Боби Стойчев, че бил дал канал на сръбските чети във Велешко.

Верното е, че той бе сторил това съвсем несъзнателно. Сръбските чети били водени от някой негов четник и Боби Стойчев после се бил досетил и поискал да ги обезоръжи, но една част от тях беше избягала към Поречието, а другата се беше върнала назад (Познавайки хронологията на сръбското четническо навлизане в Македония и по-специално във Велешко, допускам че точно това е въпросната първа сръбска чета, достигнала до Поречьето, начело на която е стоял вече споменатия Глигорие Лямевич-Соколович, чичо на Блаже Конески - б.а.). По канала беха преведени от Даме Мартинов. Групата сърбомани са заминали надолу и се явили при Даме Мартинов, някъде към Башино - село и Даме ги превежда преко Вардара, без да посмее да ги обезоръжи и после, когато са ги подгонили, една част начело с Кръсто Търговищки избегва към сръбската граница. В тая група е имало и един четник, на име Петко, от Старо Нагоричани, и друг, на име Наце, от Велешко, които Стефан Димитров успел да ги залови. Той убива Наце, а Петко, който започнал да плаче, бил изпратен в България, откъдето по-късно се прехвърля в Сърбия, става войвода и започва да се движи в Скопска Църна гора, гдето има на подчинение около 10 села.

След сражението в с. Ячинци бе прекъснат канала за Велешко. В това сражение паднаха 4 души и пленихме доста пушки. Натиснахме селото и то се повърна и стана българско и, ако впоследствие са превеждани сръбски чети, то това е ставало тайно, без наше знание. Това ставаше през 1906 г.- година, през която не влезохме в сражение с никоя сръбска чета, а само нападахме сърбоманските села. Така например, село Довезенци (дало на сръбската въоръжена пропаганда немалко хора, но над всички тях стои вездесъщия в този край Jovan Dovezenski - б.а.) го нападнахме два пъти. Това вършехме в отговор на сръбските нападения по левия бряг на река Пчиня. Борбата със сърбите през тая година се изрази само в нападения върху сърбомански села и поставяне на засади, като със сърбите се срещнахме само в селата: Беляковци, Довезенци, Ячинци и Ора. В последното село паднаха трима милиционери. Сраженията се водеха през нощта.

Непосредствено след избиването на Бобевата чета, аз заминах с група от 7-8 момчета за Кумановско. И през годините 1906 -1907 продължиха нападенията от сръбска страна. Друг войвода в Кумановско освен мене не дойде. През тая година ние не се открихме никъде и до 1908 г. с турците имахме само едно сражение. Бехме открити и то съвсем случайно в Младо Нагоричани, гдето имаше гарнизон. Идват аскери в квартирата, гдето бехме отседнали и предлагат контрабанди тютюн, но виждайки, че вратата е затворена, те се усъмнили и по тоя начин ни откриха.

И през 1908 г. продължихме да обикаляме селата. Не бехме открити никъде.

Тогава в Скопско действаше Васил Аджаларски, в Щипско - Стоян Мишев (тъст на Кире Глигоров - бивш президент на Р.Македония - б.а.), в Кратовско - Йордан Спасов и Запрянов. Преди хуриета там се беше появило някакво разцепление. В планинската област в Кратовско действаше Запрянов. Милан Гюрлуков беше в Св[ети]николско. Хуриета завари за войвода във Велешко Александър Иглата. Всички съвещания и сбирки обикновено ставаха в Кратовско, където се навърташе и Дамян Груев, в качеството си на окръжен скопски войвода.

Точно през време на хуриета сърбите успяха да посърбят село Ругинци. Ожесточената борба помежду ни продължи до хуриета, а след него тя поотслабна. През годините 1906-1907, както споменах вече, аз обикалях моя район и всички български села на брой около 40-45. После се разболях от шарка вариола и се завърнах в България. По пътя срещнах Петко Пенчев и Павел Христов, които през Кратовско и Велешко пътуваха за Битолско. Те беха само двама и се движеха от село на село. Срещнах ги в с. Станиевци. То беше в надвечерието на хуриета. Аз бех с моята чета, денувахме заедно, дадоха своите нареждания и си отпътуваха. Като напуснах района си, за мой заместник оставих Кръсте Талев, от гр. Ресен, когото сърбите убиха при първото си идване в Македония през 1913 г.

Като пристигнах в България, научих, че в Битоля се обявил хуриет. Това чух за първи път от власите овчари на Осогово, които разправяха.че в Битоля бил убит Шемши паша. Но положително нищо не можах да разбера. Едва след няколко дни, когато пристигнах в България, се научих за станалото и през Кюстендил с файтон заминах за Куманово. Моята чета не беше слезла още в града, а кратовската и щипската беха слезли в градовете. Моите четници ме очакваха, за да ги поведа аз към града. Моята чета тогава броеше 6-7 души. Срещнах ги в с. Орашец-Кумановско, откъдето се упътихме за града, гдето бехме сърдечно посрещнати. От България до Куманово пътувах с турски офицери. С мен във файтона за Македония пътуваше и един бивш четник, от с. Тръстеник, на име Мирче. При нашето посрещане от името на гражданството говориха архирейския наместник Давид Ноков, Георги Малински и Монев. Два дни след моето пристигане от България в Куманово влезоха и сръбските чети. Последните беха приветствани от Монев, Думановски и свещеник Давид Ноков. Последният владееше отлично турски език и той бе начело на групата скопяни и кумановци, която отиде в Солун. Свещеник Ноков се беше разболял от радост. След една седмица дойдоха от Сърбия и сръбските чети. Тогава дойдоха Коста Пекянец, Георги Скопянчето, Йован Довезенски и Мицко-”Стариот”.

Цяла седмица през хуриета пихме и ядохме все на турска сметка и после се легализирахме. Като легален аз прекарах от 16 юлий 1908 г. до Коледа 1909 г. На хуриета слезоха и всички чети - качаци, турци, арнаути. Така например, гр. Скопие се беше изпълнил с качаци. Такива беха слезли и в Куманово.

Турците наскоро издадоха закон за безделниците, който целеше нас, защото ние не бехме се заловили още на работа. Турците устроиха на Милан Гюрлуков кюлаф и го тикнаха в затвора. Обвиниха го в убийство. В Кумановско, в с. Станиевци беше станало убийство, та турците пипнаха Гюрлуков и го арестуваха. В Скопие бе убит Васил Аджаларски. Положението, от ден на ден, почна да се влошава. Наскоро, в Куманово, поради насилие от страна на един турчин над българи, се състоя голям митинг. Причината бе следната: един турчин бей поиска да затвори прозорците на околните български къщи, които гледаха в неговия двор. Българите отказаха да сторят това и един ден беят се покачи и започна сам да зазидва прозорците. Това даде повод да се свика митинг, на който взеха участие и сърбоманите. Държаха се речи, а митингът беше предвождай от учителя Ангел Георгиев, който впоследствие трябваше да избяга. Властта привлече под съд някои от гражданите, обаче мен още не беха ме подгонили. Но опасявайки се да не погина в затвора, през една нощ напуснах Куманово и заедно с Кралев избегахме в едно от Кумановските села, гдето по канал дойдохме в България.

През пролетта се захванах наново с четничество. Сега то ставаше при по-трудни условия: турците беха взели по-сериозни мерки. Настъпи обезоръжителната акция и из селата пливна много войска. Годините след хуриета беха трудни за четническото движение. То се водеше по същите приоми. Със сърбите не се гонехме и отношенията ни с тях беха по-смекчени. Наверно, подготовката на Балканския съюз беше оказала своето влияние. В градовете българи и сърби действаха задружно, що се отнасяше до протести пред турската власт. Нападенията между селата беха престанали и беха започнали посещенията на роднини по същите села. Сръбските чети след хуриета беха доста намалели, а сърбоманските села започнаха да се повръщат. През обезоръжителната акция турците успеха да открият част от оръжието. Обезоръжителната акция стана през 1910 г. и после ние пак отново продължихме дейността с оръжието, което не беше открито от турците. Беха останали къде 50, къде 20 пушки, а на някои места имаше и до 100. Като запитвахме селяните, защо са предали пушките, те ни отговаряха, че иначе не било възможно да постъпят. “Когато искахме да побегнем в планината, вие не ни позволявахте това, а като додоха потери, ние предадохме оръжието, защото не ни бе възможно да побегнем." Тези беха отговорите на селяните. После всички предадени на турците пушки беха заплатени от селяните. В някои от селата турците не прибегнаха до побоища. Запитали турците, къде им са пушките, селяните предават известен брой пушки и така спасяват останалата част. Всички пушки беха предадени само от с. Пчиня, като беха успяли да укрият само 3 -- 4 пушки. Поради това, селяните от това село няколко нощи по ред беха спали на открито, спасявайки се да не бъдат нападнати от околните села, затова, че са изменили на клетвата. После жителите на село Пчиня заплатиха пушките. По това време една манлихерова пушка се заплащаше 80 лв. По тоя начин беха събрани около 1800 наполеона, които пари беха използвани едва през 1920 г. за нуждите на новата борба.. Горната сума бе донесена в България от местни търговци, които я беха вложили в една банка. Пушки на селяните не се закупиха.

Нашата дейност се различаваше коренно от тази на пропагандата. Ние, като влезнем в едно село, организираме го и след това разхвърляме налог по 50-100 лири. Това беха парите, които събирахме за купуване на оръжие и всички пушки беха предварително заплащани. Сръбската пропаганда не само, че не взимаше от селяните пари за оръжие, а техният касиер, който винаги съпровождаше сърбоманските чети, плащаше храната и др. на четата. Освен това, при напускане на селото касиерът ще хвърли 3-4 наполеона за почерпка. Влизат в селото и един от първите въпроси е: "Колко ви взеха българите за пушки?" Сърбите раздаваха пушки без пари и докато нашите организационни хора беха ангажирани със своите частни работи, търговия и пр., сърбите разполагаха с платени свои хора. Така например, в гр. Куманово те имаха 5-6 души стари учители и свещеника, които получаваха по 3 наполеона златни месечно. Сърбите пръскаха много пари и това нещо оказваше голямо влияние върху масата. Техни платени агенти в Куманово беха: Миле Цакев, Коле Гребенаров, Харитон Чавдаров, Вукотич, той беше стар сърбин от с. Сеница, Новопазарски сандажак, Орде Драгоманов - който беше единственият еснаф - сръбски агент. Всички горепоменати лица беха сръбски учители и получаваха заплата, имаше и други, но те беха по-главните в града. По видни из селата беха: Трайко Попдимитров, от с. Довезенци, Динчо, пак от същото село, Манасия от село Клечовци, Петко Гръков от новопосърбеното село Кокино, поп Ташко, цинцарин от Крушово, сръбски архиерейски наместник, когото застреляхме в Куманово, беше също техен агент.

Нашата борба със своите финансови тежести, лягаше изключително върху на- селението, нещо което оказваше голямо влияние. От друга страна, трябва да се спомене също, че училищната - просветна пропаганда на сърбите беше доста ефикасна. Те даваха на учениците облекло и закуска. Всичко това бе от значение за борбата. Въпреки, обаче тази голяма пропаганда, сърбите не можаха да отбележат големи успехи. Сърбомани ставаха предимно недоволните от духовната община Например, скарали се за роднински връзки, пречещи за встъпване в брак, или пък разни такси, понеже сърбите не взимаха такива. Ето причините, които накараха някои да станат сърбомани. Семейството на хаджи Зафир Тасев от Куманово стана причина да се посърби друго семейство по такава една маловажна причина.

Ядката на сърбоманите в Куманово е от с. Отля (откъм арнаутлука). Това село брои 200 - 300 къщи и селяните беха избегали в Куманово, като беха образували първата ядка от сърбомани. Повод, за да избегат от селото, беха станали постоянните нападения на албанците. Те беха се преселили в Куманово към 1895 г.

Кръстю Лазаров. Революционната дейност в Кумановско

Кръсто Лазаров Иванов е роден през 1881 г. в с. Коню, Кумановско. Първоначално участва в революционното движение в Македония с четите на ВМОРО. От 1901 до 1903 г. е четник в четата на капитан Юрдан Стоянов. Участва в Илинденско - Преображенското въстание като четник в четата на скопския войвода Никола Пушкаров. След въстанието е четник в четите на Михаил Чаков и Коста Нунков в Кумановско. Ст 1905 до 1931 г. е кумановски околийски войвода. Кр. Лазаров участва най-активно в борбата срещу сръбската пропаганда в Кумановско. През септември 1944 година, за да се сломи рязко българофилството в града, той заедно с още четиридесет и няколко души българи, е убит от отряд местни македонски партизани (в случая става дума, за сборна формация рекрутирана от сръбските и шиптарските села в Кумановско), като славния войвода е жив закопан. Спомените му се съхраняват в: ЦДА, ф. 1932 к, оп. 1, а. е. 130, л. 1-43. Оригинал. Машинопис. Вж. и НБКМ ВИА, кол. 42. а. е. 37, л. 1 - зд

http://www.promacedonia.org/rami/k_lazarov_spomeni.html

http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%8A%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8E_%D0%9B%D0%B0% D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2

[Crn Volk]

Go find a new hobby because slandering posters is certainly not a very productive hobby!

Am I not telling the truth? May be the full truth is better...Ottoman, Torbesh, Greek...what else is there...your old posts are all still here bro...

[Alexandros]

''United Macedonia'' from a demographic point of view - Before the population exchange between Greece and Turkey

''Egej-Vardar-Pirin'' or a ''Greater slavic Macedonia with Solun as capital'' was never a political (i mean political borders) or demographic reality.
This is important to know for the Slavic people of F.Y.R.O.M, because they think that ''United Macedonia with Solun as capital with a Macedonian populated region'' was divided in 1912/13.

Lets have a close look at maps, which mention Macedonian Slavs separate from Bulgarians and Serbians
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/617225_294227724010879_733296488_o.png

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/615986_294227877344197_1333768990_o.png

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/281014_292679914165660_743407998_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/175916_292789857487999_144620867_o.png

More ethnographical maps of Europe:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.291876567579328.52734.165278736905779&type=3

https://www.facebook.com/macedoniantruth









Alexandros

[Alexandros]

Roman Macedonia;
http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/maps/fullmap2.jpg

French Map - 1800's
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/CartecommercialedelaprovincedeMacdo.jpg

German Map, 1912;
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Vlker-undSprachenkartederBalkan-Hal.jpg

I can not understand what the Slavic people of F.Y.R.O.M see on this maps.
But I can explain what I see.

http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/maps/fullmap2.jpg
I see administrative units of Roman Empire.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/CartecommercialedelaprovincedeMacdo.jpg
I see the region of Macedonia ''DE LA PROVICE DE MACEDOINE''
and the regions
''PROVINCE DE THRACE''
''PROVINCE DE THESSALIE''
''PROVINCE DE EPIRE''
too.
What see the Slavic people of F.Y.R.O.M?




http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia3.jpg

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia1.jpg

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia2.jpg

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia4.jpg

1. I see a multicultural ''modern Macedonia region'' with Macedonian Slavs separate from Bulgarians and Serbians.
This post is interesting for you: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1164744&postcount=59

2. I can not understand why you are posting only the ~5% of maps, which are mention Macedonian Slavs separate from Bulgarians and not the ~95% of ethnographical maps, which are showing you as Bulgarians.







Alexandros

[Alexandros]

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4402/divisionfullmap.gif

~80% of the territory of the Former Yugoslav Repiblic of Macedonia is not a part of ancient Macedonia. Only the region of Bitola (Pelagonia) and Gevgeli is a part of ancient Macedonia. Northern and Central F.Y.R.O.M are parts of ancient Dardania and Paeonia.
This is important to know for the Slavic people of F.Y.R.O.M, because in their opinion they are descendants of ancient Macedonians.

The region Blagoevgrad (Pirin-''Macedonia'') was never macedonian.
Cities like Skopje/Shkupi, Tetovo/Tetova, Kumanovo/Kumanova was never macedonian but dardanian and paeonian.

A german map from the real ancient Macedonia
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/521641_292662034167448_1177020128_n.jpg
Green: Macedonia 359 BC
Yellow: Expansions until 338 BC
Source: Quelle: Weltatlas der alten Kulturen






Alexandros

[Anusiya]

Skopje/Shkupi, Tetovo/Tetova, Kumanovo/Kumanova.

Of course, you imply they had different toponyms at that time right?

[Alexandros]

Skopje/Shkupi, Tetovo/Tetova, Kumanovo/Kumanova.

Of course, you imply they had different toponyms at that time right?


What I want to show is that this cities are bilingual (Albanian and Slavic dialects). And that's a fact.

Ethnic majoritys
Skopje/Shkupi
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Ethnic_groups_in_Skopje_en.svg/500px-Ethnic_groups_in_Skopje_en.svg.png
Albanians 103,891 = 20.49%

Kumanovo/Kumanova
Albanians 18,277 = 25.80%

Tetovo/Tetova
Albanians 28,897 = 54.6%





Alexandros

[Alexandros]

Alexandros map of ''MODERN MACEDONIA''
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/54196_294966747270310_260988668_o.png






Alexandros

[Anusiya]

I see all them are perfect European names!:laugh:

[Alexandros]

I see all them are perfect European names!:laugh:


What do you mean?:D









Alexandros

[Alexandros]

ETHNOGRAPHICS MAPS - DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEWS ;)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9VvF4GvdcN0/Trl3FY9qgYI/AAAAAAAAAeU/wXeNY-ZLEQ0/s1600/Nioks-1899.jpg
Source: Leon Niox 1899

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Edward_Stanford_1877.jpg
Source: Ethnic composition map of the Balkans by the Greek diplomat Ioannis Gennadius, published by the English cartographer E. Stanford in 1877

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/598483_297787256988259_337786136_n.jpg
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/image-services/jp2.py?data=%2Fhome%2Fwww%2Fdata%2Fgmd%2Fgmd6%2Fg6 801%2Fg6801e%2Fct002088.jp2&res=2
Source: Die Völker des Donauraumes und der Balkanhalbinsel
Berlin, Generalstab des Heeres, Abteilung für Kreigskarten u. Vermessungswesen, 1940.

http://www.giovanniarmillotta.it/albania/mappe/pop1913-1918_dardano.jpg
Source: A. Dardano, Carte Ethnique et Linguistique de l’Orient Européen, Institut Géographique De Agostini, Novare, part. [1913-1918]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_38w3HpsHCvM/S8d4X_juN_I/AAAAAAAABAE/67blrCulW2M/s1600/ethniesmacedoine.jpg
Source: French Internetsite - Unknown

http://s14.directupload.net/images/121117/imq6zkpu.jpg
Source: This is an original 1913 color lithographed map showing racial and ethnic distribution throughout western Europe and Turkey.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/404766_291879907578994_470055923_n.jpg
Source: Ethnische Karte Europas 1918 - U.S-Amerikanische Karte
Quelle:National Geographic Magazine's 1918 December edition entitled "Races of Europe"
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.maps.com%2Fmap.aspx%3Fpid %3D15959&h=YAQGldH_s

http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_22.jpg
Source: The ethnological map by Mackensie and Irby 1867

http://purl.pt/751/2/ca-3-v_JPG/ca-3-v_JPG_24-C-R0150/ca-3-v_0044_30_t24-C-R0150.jpg
Source: Carte ethnographique de l' Europe: 1871

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qiKy_F0hQCw/TrzfTs3xbLI/AAAAAAAAAg8/J6k8e7oPh80/s1600/Karta_Arumani_1919.jpg
Source: T.N Jonescu 1924

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dy5wdRAMt_Q/Trkry6geu7I/AAAAAAAAAa8/M7Ewn_sSpNw/s1600/9%D0%B1.jpg
Source: ''The races of Europe'' - A sciological study 1910

http://s14.directupload.net/images/121119/frephvj8.jpg
Source: Ethnographische Karte von Makedonien und Alt-Serbien / von Spiridion Gopčević.
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/collections/maps/ethnographic/G6846-E1-1889-G6.html









Alexandros

[Alexandros]

ETHNOGRAPHICS MAPS - DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEWS ;)
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_27.jpg
Source: The Ethnological Map by Sax 1877

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Ethnic_map_of_Balkans_-_german_1882.jpg
Source: Map from the German geographer
Heinrich Kiepert
created in 1882.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Balkans-ethnic_(1877).jpg
Source: Ethnic composition map of the Balkans in 1877 by the French cartographer A. Synvet. It was considering as pro-Greek by later historians

http://gre.gr.funpic.de/maps/9.jpg
Source: Ethnographical Map of Turkey in Europe 1880 - By E. G. Havenstein

http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_15s.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/552324_291878874245764_570899080_n.jpg
Source: Map from 1842 by Czech Pan-Slavist, Safarik - Tschechische Karte

http://gre.gr.funpic.de/maps/GreekSpeakingAreas1910.jpg
Source: W.R. Shepherd, Historical Atlas, 7th ed., with modifications''

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Macedonia_-_Point_of_View_of_the_Serbs.jpg
Source: Ethnographic Map of Macedonia: Point of View of the Serbs. Author: Professor J.Cvijic, 1918

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/644157_292133874220264_1454123704_n.jpg
Source: Volkerkarte von Europa. (with) Sprachgebiet der Basken. (with) Sprachgebiet der Bretonen. (with) Die Sprachgrenzen in Sud-Tirol. (with) Die Flamische Sprachgrenze in Belgien. (Richard Andree. Herausgegeben von der Geographischen Anstalt von Velhagen & Klasing in Leipzig. 1881)
www.davidrumsey.com%2Fdetail%3Fid%3D1-1-30779-1150694%26name%3DVolkerkarte%2Bvon%2BEuropa&h=tAQHfGsIZ

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/269406_292135260886792_194370275_n.jpg
Source: Europe - physical features & population. The Edinburgh Geographical Institute, John Bartholomew & Son, Ltd. "The Times" atlas. (London: The Times, 1922)
www.davidrumsey.com%2Fdetail%3Fid%3D1-1-3068-430027%26name%3DEurope%2B-%2Bphysical%2Bfeatures%2B%26%2Bpopulation&h=-AQGZ14Tg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/131755_292137114219940_1446030558_o.jpg
Source: From Brockhaus' Konversations-Lexikon 14th edition, 6th volume, Leipzig, 1895

http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_19.jpg
Source: The Ethnological Map by Lejean 1861



Later more ...










Alexandros

[Englisc]

Those old ethnicity maps look pretty dodgy. :eek:

[Anusiya]

Those old ethnicity maps look pretty dodgy. :eek:

With minor regional variations, I think they are legit.

[poiuytrewq0987]

What is with the old maps? There's only one kind of map that's relevant are maps made today.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0SYcaHyEJg4/UEHTCBJi_fI/AAAAAAAADfM/IeDRx_ew0g4/s1600/Languages+of+Europe+2012..png

[Alexandros]

ETHNOGRAPHIC MAPS - DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEWS
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-x1XNyv2iSPk/TrzYqs7ufYI/AAAAAAAAAgU/SnbyWDZdAIU/s1600/Karta_Etnik_Evropa_1910+british.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/30965_298224026944582_242797728_n.jpg
Source: ''A Literary & Historical Atlas of Europe (New York, United States: E.P. Dutton & Co., Ltd., 1910 - J.G. Bartholomew''

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zqgA5q3j61I/TrzcZzgf1dI/AAAAAAAAAg0/0ZNn2rpd8Vo/s1600/Karta_EU_ETNGRAFICA.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/178229_298216776945307_996789207_o.jpg
Source: ''Touring club italiano Milano'' 1924

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-835o__BNaHk/Trk1ROXz5kI/AAAAAAAAAc0/rgbhIdQJ8to/s1600/8.png
Source: ''National Alumni'' 1923, vol. 7

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sZSApi66M74/TrkzfDC5oYI/AAAAAAAAAcU/cmUtfms6JjM/s1600/6.JPG
Source: French republican newspaper ''Le Matin'' 1919

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Europe_ethnic_map_1897_%28hungarian%29.jpg
Source: Ethnographische Karte von Europa - Ungarische Karte von 1897

http://www.hipkiss.org/data/maps/london-geographical-institute_the-peoples-atlas_1920_europe-racial-and-linguistic_3992_3012_600.jpg
Source: Published by London Geographical Institute in “The Peoples Atlas” name of the map “Europe Racial And Linguistic”, 1920

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Vlker-undSprachenkartederBalkan-Hal.jpg
Source: This map is called "Völker- und Sprachenkarte der Balkan-Halbinsel" and made by ???? in 1924, Leipzig. Original size 22x27,5 cm, scale 1:5000000

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/169964_292118220888496_801980186_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/615253_292115357555449_599586636_o.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Balkan-nations.jpg
Source: Hungarian ethnic map of the Balkans 1897

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d6/Hellenism_in_the_Near_East_1918.jpg
Source: Greek ethnographic map from by Professor George Soteriadis, University of Athens 1918.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Ethnicturkey1911.jpg
Source: Ethnic groups in the Balkans and Asia Minor as of the early 20th Century (William R. Shepherd, Historical Atlas, 1911).

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-aKpmFB03lSY/Trl2K6-P-tI/AAAAAAAAAd8/uyx-bxcAVbc/s1600/Pauker-1893.jpg
Source: Karl Pauker 1880

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sHknoTXiaUc/Trko5TLj20I/AAAAAAAAAaE/SFuEhxWRqlE/s1600/4.JPG
Source: Deutsche Rundschau für Geographie und Statistik 1892

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1068_291879370912381_1785462176_n.jpg
Source: Ethnische Karte der Region Makedonien 1842




Alexandros

[Alexandros]

What is with the old maps? There's only one kind of map that's relevant are maps made today.
...

I post everything what is about this Thread, not only one point of view but different point of views. Older and modern maps, independent from nationality or time.

Modern maps only for you :thumb001:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/46266_298157306951254_316455603_n.jpg

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/4151/arton2039gr5.jpg
Source: Rexhep Qosja, La Question albanaise, Paris, Fayard 1995

http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2003/07/DERENS/IMG/jpg/macedoine_big_juil03.jpg
Source: Le Monde diplomatique

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1GlPW4tB-eI/UDaT9afEshI/AAAAAAAADV4/KiaRKRKTQZY/s1600/Ethnic%2Bmap%2B%2BSouth-East%2BEurope_2011..jpg
Source: Unknown



http://www.profudegeogra.eu/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Europa-Estica-harta-etnica.jpg
Source: Europa Estica-harta etnica (Unknown)

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/20/6220-004-5D922DDB.gif
Source: Britannica?

Older map from 1910
http://joshberer.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/balkans-1910-ethnic.jpg





Alexandros

[Onur]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Ethnicturkey1911.jpg
Source: Ethnic groups in the Balkans and Asia Minor as of the early 20th Century (William R. Shepherd, Historical Atlas, 1911).
Alexandros, did you notice something peculiar on the map above?

As you can see there are no Greeks in the central Anatolia but only Turks are being shown.

But as you know, about half of the million people gone to Greece from this area in 1923 population exchange and now they live in Aegean Macedonia, pretending to be the heirs of Alexander the Greek today, true hellenic Macedonians.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Alexandros, did you notice something peculiar on the map above?

As you can see there are no Greeks in the central Anatolia but only Turks are being shown.

But as you know, about half of the million people gone to Greece from this area in 1923 population exchange and now they live in Aegean Macedonia, pretending to be the heirs of Alexander the Greek today, true hellenic Macedonians.

Most Anatolian Greeks are descendants of colonists who moved eastwards because of a famine in ancient Greece. I don't know why you think otherwise but it makes you look like a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

1. Greek colonies

http://www.greek-history.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/greek_colonies.jpg

2. Greek medieval empires, kingdoms

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/013/e/5/anno_1250___romania_by_lscatilina-d374oqh.png

3. Greeks in Anatolia

If we go by this census map then we can easily count more than a million Greeks in Anatolia. Maybe there was a Christian Turk here and there who got caught up in the population exchange but they're a minority. I highly doubt the original nomadic Turks got involved in those exchanges anyhow.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Proportions_des_populations_en_Asie_Mineure_statis tique_officielle_d1914.png

[Alexandros]

Alexandros, did you notice something peculiar on the map above?

As you can see there are no Greeks in the central Anatolia but only Turks are being shown.

But as you know, about half of the million people gone to Greece from this area in 1923 population exchange and now they live in Aegean Macedonia, pretending to be the heirs of Alexander the Greek today, true hellenic Macedonians.
1. Central Anatolia was not Greek dominated in ~1900, but Turkish. But western Anatolia (Ionia, Ege, Manisa, Aydin) and northern Anatolia (Karadeniz, Pontus), had greater Greek minorities in this time.
2. The ''true hellenic Macedonians'' are the Macedonians, which are before the population exchange ~43% of the population of Greek-Macedonia or ''Aegean Macedonia'', which was multicultural. The other Hellenes at present time are Pontians, Eastern-Thracians and Ionians or a Macedonian-Pontian, Macedonian-Eastern-Thracian mix/panhellenic mix.
3. But that does not matter, because in my opinion is a Cypriot, Cretan or Thracian which have nothing to do with ''geographical Macedonia'' more Macedonian than all the slavic world together from Poland to Japan. The only modern Nation, which have cultural, font (Alphabet) and linguistic and maybe a genetic continuum with the ancient Macedonians are the Greeks.
Only the Albanians and Romanians can say the same about themselves at this region. But this my opinion.







Saygılar
Iskender

[Anusiya]

Greek populations have lived in the same part of the known as "Rumeli" region for centuries and centuries continuously. For the Greek mainland it had always been the same for millennia. Some people perceive population influxes as invasions, I can never say it enough that it is not the case, unless we are talking about military campaigns.

[Archduke]

http://www.hipkiss.org/data/maps/london-geographical-institute_the-peoples-atlas_1920_europe-racial-and-linguistic_3992_3012_600.jpg
Source: Published by London Geographical Institute in “The Peoples Atlas” name of the map “Europe Racial And Linguistic”, 1920

This map is very interesting. Thanks!

[Alexandros]

Ancient maps
http://s7.directupload.net/images/121125/wwbtkgo7.jpg
Source: German Cartographer H. Kiepert.

https://peter-hug.ch/meyers/hires/07/07_0672a-Altgriechenland.jpg
Source: ALT-GRIECHENLAND
Makedonĭen (lat. Macedonia), eine Landschaft Nordgriechenlands - Meyers Konversations-Lexikon, 1888








Alexandros

[Alexandros]

Another self-created graphic with two ethnographical maps, which mention Mazedonier/Macedonian Slavs/Slaves de Macedoine separate from Bulgarians and Serbians.
In my opinion this maps show at best the multicultural charakter of the so called ''Modern, Ottoman Macedonia-Region'' or ''Greater Macedonia with Solun/Thessaloniki'' as capital.

''Egej-Vardar-Pirin'' or a ''Greater slavic Macedonia with Solun as capital'' was never a political (i mean political borders) or demographic reality.
This is important to know for the Slavic people of F.Y.R.O.M, because they think that ''United Macedonia with Solun as capital with a Macedonian populated region'' was divided in 1912/13.

Lets have a close look again :)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/54654_296534627113522_1397899143_o.png
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=296534627113522&set=a.292663397500645.52942.165278736905779&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn1%2F54654_296534627113522_1397899143_o.png&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F293739_296534627113522_1397899143_n.png&size=1350%2C600

And now a more close look again :D;)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/169397_296534727113512_6144130_o.png
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=296534727113512&set=a.292663397500645.52942.165278736905779&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc6%2F169397_296534727113512_6144130_o.png&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc6%2F178918_296534727113512_6144130_n.png&size=1350%2C600

Another self-created graphic with two very similar ethnographical maps.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/703994_302556119844706_712775271_o.jpg
If you want to enjoy this maps in best quality click here:
http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~31739~1150644:Ethnographic-map-of-the-Balkan-Peni?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub _List_No%2CSeries_No
http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~30794~1150732:Volkerkarte-der-Balkanhalbinsel--Ko?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_L ist_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q%3Abalkan%3Bsort%3APub_List_No_InitialSort%2C Pub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No%3Blc%3ARUMSEY%7 E8%7E1&mi=44&trs=167

Later more ...







Alexandros

[Crn Volk]

A couple of modern ones for Alexandros to ponder...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Ethnic_composition_in_Northern_Greece_-_West_Macedonia.PNG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Greece_linguistic_minorities.svg/550px-Greece_linguistic_minorities.svg.png

[Alexandros]

A couple of modern ones for Alexandros to ponder...


I can not understand why you are talking about ''to ponder'', because I have posted a lot of old maps (most of them created with serbian ethnographical data) which mention macedonian Slavs separate from Bulgarians, one self created modern Idiom/Languages/Biggest-Cities-Map of the region with your Wikipedia-Maps as source and a lot of comprasions which mention macedonian Slavs in slavomacedonian dialect.

Examples of old maps which mention macedonian Slavs separate from Bulgarians, which I have posted in this thread:
EXAMPLE 1 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1200497&postcount=72)
EXAMPLE 2 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1202470&postcount=80)

Example of my self created modern map, which I have postet in this thread:
EXAMPLE 1 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1195824&postcount=64)

Other ''self created'' maps from other threads, which I have posted in slavomacedonian dialect (Different point of views and very good quality):
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/4831/makedonijanamakedoncite.png

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4831/makedonijanamakedoncite.png

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4831/makedonijanamakedoncite.png

Let me give you a friendly tip:
Compare your current avatar ''United Macedonia with Solun as capital'' ...
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/200x161ximage.php,qu=4581,adateline=1357872920.pag espeed.ic.S8nQfgZm-b.jpg
... with the real ethnographic composition of the region before the population exchanges!
You will realize that your dream is a big lie and you are i victim of propaganda and chauvinism.

And than tell us again that we have ''to ponder'' :picard2:






Alexandros

[Crn Volk]

I can not understand why you are talking about ''to ponder'', because I have posted a lot of old maps (most of them created with serbian ethnographical data) which mention macedonian Slavs separate from Bulgarians, one self created modern Idiom/Languages/Biggest-Cities-Map of the region with your Wikipedia-Maps as source and a lot of comprasions which mention macedonian Slavs in slavomacedonian dialect.

Examples of old maps which mention macedonian Slavs separate from Bulgarians, which I have posted in this thread:
EXAMPLE 1 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1200497&postcount=72)
EXAMPLE 2 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1202470&postcount=80)

Example of my self created modern map, which I have postet in this thread:
EXAMPLE 1 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1195824&postcount=64)

Other ''self created'' maps from other threads, which I have posted in slavomacedonian dialect (Different point of views and very good quality):
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/4831/makedonijanamakedoncite.png

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4831/makedonijanamakedoncite.png

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4831/makedonijanamakedoncite.png

Let me give you a friendly tip:
Compare your current avatar ''United Macedonia with Solun as capital'' ...
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/200x161ximage.php,qu=4581,adateline=1357872920.pag espeed.ic.S8nQfgZm-b.jpg
... with the real ethnographic composition of the region before the population exchanges!
You will realize that your dream is a big lie and you are i victim of propaganda and chauvinism.

And than tell us again that we have ''to ponder'' :picard2:






Alexandros

My maps are current. Those are current regions of Slavic speakers in Greece. All will soon rise up to join a united Macedonian state :p :thumb001:

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/United_macedonia_ilinden_organization.jpg

http://vmro-svrg.com/images/Karti/karta_Obedinena_BG.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/398815_227687917341104_1083682110_n.jpg

[Scholarios]

Had your last chance in 44-49. and Chalkidike in a Pan"Macedonian" state? It's like adding Zagreb as Macedonian land. If Macedonia couldn't manage to join a Slav state when it was only 40% Greek, how is it going to join now that its 98% Greek?

[Alexandros]

Had your last chance in 44-49. and Chalkidike in a Pan"Macedonian" state? It's like adding Zagreb as Macedonian land. If Macedonia couldn't manage to join a Slav state when it was only 40% Greek, how is it going to join now that its 98% Greek?

This people are victims of chauvinism.
They dream about a ''greater empire'' with this (http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/4831/makedonijanamakedoncite.png) ethnic composition (1913, before population exchange) and this (https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/54196_294966747270310_260988668_o.png) lingual composition (1923-2013+, after population exchange).

Instead of guessing what they ''have'' (de facto is F.Y.R.O.M maybe 60-65% slavic dominated, the other 35-40% are minorities, mainly Albanians), they want more and more and more.
This behavior is crazy and not logical.






Alexandros

[Vojnik]

This people are victims of chauvinism.
They dream about a ''greater empire'' with this (http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/4831/makedonijanamakedoncite.png) ethnic composition (1913, before population exchange) and this (https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/54196_294966747270310_260988668_o.png) lingual composition (1923-2013+, after population exchange).

Instead of guessing what they ''have'' (de facto is F.Y.R.O.M maybe 60-65% slavic dominated, the other 35-40% are minorities, mainly Albanians), they want more and more and more.
This behavior is crazy and not logical.

How can you as a neo-Greek speak of another nations chauvinism when you are the biggest chauvinists in the world today?

You people also dream of expansions of your current borders. Golden Dawn, for example, publicly state that they dream of occupying Izmir and Istanbul, even though those places are majority Turkish. You base your fairytale claims on Turkish soil by looking back to the historical borders of the multicultural Byzantium. Now that is crazy.

All Macedonian nationalists do is remember the times before the Christian Turkish speaking refugees arrived in Macedonia during the 1920's when Macedonia was a majority Slavic land. We know those times will not be returned, and we accept it and just wish that our people in those lands get the human rights they deserve.

[Alexandros]

How can you as a neo-Greek speak of another nations chauvinism when you are the biggest chauvinists in the world today?

You people also dream of expansions of your current borders. Golden Dawn, for example, publicly state that they dream of occupying Izmir and Istanbul, even though those places are majority Turkish. You base your fairytale claims on Turkish soil by looking back to the historical borders of the multicultural Byzantium. Now that is crazy.

All Macedonian nationalists do is remember the times before the Christian Turkish speaking refugees arrived in Macedonia during the 1920's when Macedonia was a majority Slavic land. We know those times will not be returned, and we accept it and just wish that our people in those lands get the human rights they deserve.

The terms New-Neo Greek/Medieval-Byzantine Greek/Koine Greek/Mycenean/Proto Greek are no more than a ''experiment'' to file the different stages of development of the Greek language. It is always the same language. And a language is ''alive'' and dynamic.

I show the User ''Sokol'' a very good exmaple about ''crazy behavior'':
Your capital city Skopje/Shkupi is located in Albanian-inhabited area and your leader transformed this city into ancient Disneyland.
This is one example what real cancer is! To build ancient Disneylands in absolute and partially Albanian inhabited areas! (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Ethnic_map_of_Macedonia.png)
If you like anatolian Greeks, you can open a thread about this issue.

I know that every nation have claims and dreams. Some Germans have dreams about Prussia too for example.
We have already discussed above.
Have you forgotten already? (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1211185&postcount=9)
Its a difference between official and non-offical claims and dreams.
You repeat almost only.






Alexandros

[Crn Volk]

The terms New-Neo Greek/Medieval-Byzantine Greek/Koine Greek/Mycenean/Proto Greek are no more than a ''experiment'' to file the different stages of development of the Greek language. It is always the same language. And a language is ''alive'' and dynamic.

I show the User ''Sokol'' a very good exmaple about ''crazy behavior'':
Your capital city Skopje/Shkupi is located in Albanian-inhabited area and your leader transformed this city into ancient Disneyland.
This is one example what real cancer is! To build ancient Disneylands in absolute and partially Albanian inhabited areas! (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Ethnic_map_of_Macedonia.png)
If you like anatolian Greeks, you can open a thread about this issue.

I know that every nation have claims and dreams. Some Germans have dreams about Prussia too for example.
We have already discussed above.
Have you forgotten already? (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1211185&postcount=9)
Its a difference between official and non-offical claims and dreams.
You repeat almost only.






Alexandros

The Republic of Macedonia has no official claims on current Greek territory. Now fuq off

[Alexandros]

The Republic of Macedonia has no official claims on current Greek territory. Now fuq off

Yes and the ''official'' name of the Alexander statue in Skopje is ''warrior on a horse''.
There is no distinction between official and unofficial in F.Y.R.O.M.

Falsification of history in F.Y.R.O.M ≠ falsification of history.
Falsification of history in the rest of the World = falsification of history.

Wake up Slavs from F.Y.R.O.M, its time to say stop to chauvinism, falsification of history and racism.
Its time to say stop to this amusing, but also dangerous game!






Alexandros

[Alexandros]

A digital map of ancient Macedonian language.
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5629/xmk.png

Source: http://multitree.org/codes/xmk.html

Here we can also clearly see that ~80-90% of the territory of F.Y.R.O.M have nothing to do with ancient Macedonia.





Alexandros

[Crn Volk]

Interesting when you compare it to the modern Macedonian language;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/MapMacedonians.png/800px-MapMacedonians.png

[Scholarios]

Interesting when you compare it to the modern Macedonian language;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/MapMacedonians.png/800px-MapMacedonians.png

yeah its almost the exact inverse

[Crn Volk]

yeah its almost the exact inverse

Not when compared to this map of the ancient Macedonian language;

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/balk/balkan1.gif


http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/balk/macedonian.html

[Alexandros]

Interesting when you compare it to the modern Macedonian language;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/MapMacedonians.png/800px-MapMacedonians.png

Why?






Alexandros

[Crn Volk]

Why?






Alexandros

Why what? Why is the modern Macedonian language still spoken in Greece today?

[Alexandros]

Why what? Why is the modern Macedonian language still spoken in Greece today?

Why is it interesting when you comapre the ancient Macedonian language with the modern ''Macedonian'' language?







Alexandros

[Scholarios]

Not when compared to this map of the ancient Macedonian language;

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/balk/balkan1.gif


http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/balk/macedonian.html

simple solution, that map you posted is bogus.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Paeonians.png/220px-Paeonians.png

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/3996/pelagonia300bc.jpg

[Crn Volk]

A digital map of ancient Macedonian language.
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5629/xmk.png

Source: http://multitree.org/codes/xmk.html

Here we can also clearly see that ~80-90% of the territory of F.Y.R.O.M have nothing to do with ancient Macedonia.





Alexandros

Well it's also interesting that according to that map it wasn't spoke in all of Greek Macedonia too;

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTi_HvbpC0cuiaeGke0nkqvoubLnsit9 yIdGp1P686iwO5SF1CtNA

[Alexandros]

Well it's also interesting that according to that map it wasn't spoke in all of Greek Macedonia too;

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTi_HvbpC0cuiaeGke0nkqvoubLnsit9 yIdGp1P686iwO5SF1CtNA

My question was:
Why is it interesting when you comapre the ancient Macedonian language with the modern ''Macedonian'' language?

Because you wrote:

Interesting when you compare it to the modern Macedonian language;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/MapMacedonians.png/800px-MapMacedonians.png







Alexandros

[Crn Volk]

My question was:
Why is it interesting when you comapre the ancient Macedonian language with the modern ''Macedonian'' language?

Because you wrote:








Alexandros

Interesting in that the modern Macedonian language, whilst not matching completely the map you have posted, yet is still spoke in Greek Macedonia. Now, given that the ancient Macedonian language does not completely cover Greek Macedonia, do you wish to retract your map?

[Alexandros]

Interesting in that the modern Macedonian language, whilst not matching completely the map you have posted, yet is still spoke in Greek Macedonia. Now, given that the ancient Macedonian language does not completely cover Greek Macedonia, do you wish to retract your map?

This map (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1358694&postcount=91) is about the ancient Macedonian language and have nothing - or only partially - to do with present political and administrative borders.

I wrote about the ancient Macedonian language and about ~80-90% of the terriroty of F.Y.R.O.M, which have nothing to do with ancient Macedonia.






Alexandros

[Crn Volk]

This map (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1358694&postcount=91) is about the ancient Macedonian language and have nothing - or only partially - to do with present political and administrative borders.

I wrote about the ancient Macedonian language and about ~80-90% of the terriroty of F.Y.R.O.M, which have nothing to do with ancient Macedonia.






Alexandros

And what is the percentage of Greek Macedonia that has 'something to do with' ancient Macedonia?

[Alexandros]

And what is the percentage of Greek Macedonia that has 'something to do with' ancient Macedonia?

I would say that ~60% of the territory of todays Greek Macedonia Region (http://www.greece-map.net/maps/macedonia-map.gif) or ~70-100% of the official administrative greek division of Western-Macedonia (http://europa.eu/abc/maps/images/regions/greece_r/dytmak_r.gif) (About 100%) and Central Macedonia (http://europa.eu/abc/maps/images/regions/greece_r/kentr_r.gif) (About 70%) have to do with ancient Macedonia.






Alexandros

[Crn Volk]

I would say that ~60% of the territory of todays Greek Macedonia Region (http://www.greece-map.net/maps/macedonia-map.gif) or ~70-100% of the official administrative greek division of Western-Macedonia (http://europa.eu/abc/maps/images/regions/greece_r/dytmak_r.gif) (About 100%) and Central Macedonia (http://europa.eu/abc/maps/images/regions/greece_r/kentr_r.gif) (About 70%) have to do with ancient Macedonia.






Alexandros

60%...so we each have parts of ancient Macedonia then. In terms of geographic Macedonia, likewise we each have parts of it (Greece ~50%, R.Macedonia ~40%)...and so we are in the current mess.

[Alexandros]

60%...so we each have parts of ancient Macedonia then. In terms of geographic Macedonia, likewise we each have parts of it (Greece ~50%, R.Macedonia ~40%)...and so we are in the current mess.

I. Yes, of course. South-Eastern-Albania (eastern of Korce region) is also a part of ancient Macedonia.
II. But a lot of your people would like to be ancient ethnic Macedonians and not multicultural ''geograhical Macedonians''. You and your people want a slavic monopol exslucive right for the term ''Macedonia'' and for the ancient Macedonian history, which is a part of Greek history. This is the problem!
III. I agree that we are in current mess, but you have more to lose.





Alexandros

[bilbil]

I would say that ~60% of the territory of todays Greek Macedonia Region (http://www.greece-map.net/maps/macedonia-map.gif) or ~70-100% of the official administrative greek division of Western-Macedonia (http://europa.eu/abc/maps/images/regions/greece_r/dytmak_r.gif) (About 100%) and Central Macedonia (http://europa.eu/abc/maps/images/regions/greece_r/kentr_r.gif) (About 70%) have to do with ancient Macedonia.






Alexandros


Can you somehow support this numbers or you just put them out from your pocket. As I know this is territory where ancient Macedonian Language have been spoken (of course I think on Koyne language)
27790

Do you think that all of them were Greeks?

[Crn Volk]

Can you somehow support this numbers or you just put them out from your pocket. As I know this is territory where ancient Macedonian Language have been spoken (of course I think on Koyne language)
27790

Do you think that all of them were Greeks?

Welcome to the forum bilbil.
Pozdrav

[Scholarios]

Bibil- Ancient Macedonian language is not Koine

[Alexandros]

Can you somehow support this numbers or you just put them out from your pocket. As I know this is territory where ancient Macedonian Language have been spoken (of course I think on Koyne language)
27790

Do you think that all of them were Greeks?

''I put them form my pocket'' or lets say that I use my eyes and my brain? Is that ok for you?:icon_wink:
Lets have a close look together, maybe you will ''put the same numbers from your pocket'' like me.

Ancient and so called ''modern ottoman'' Macedonia (black copy-pasted borders) - Comprasions
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/136057_295683413865310_1178026350_o.jpg
Source: ALT-GRIECHENLAND
Makedonĭen (lat. Macedonia), eine Landschaft Nordgriechenlands - Meyers Konversations-Lexikon, 1888

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/521641_292662034167448_1177020128_n.jpg
Source: Quelle: Weltatlas der alten Kulturen
Green: Macedonia 359 BC
Yellow: Expansions until 338 BC

No, they are not all Greeks. How do you figure?
Its a difference between the ancient macedonian Kingdom (Macedon) (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.292660954167556.52941.165278736905779&type=3) and the Greek macedonian Empire of Alexander the Great. (http://kernelsofwheat.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Empire-of-Alexander.jpg)
Or is Plovdiv/Philipopolis also a part of ancient Macedonia?
Or Alexandria in Egypt?
Or Bactria in central Asia?







Alexandros

[bilbil]

Bibil- Ancient Macedonian language is not Koine


Nice, we can agree on this. So far Ancient Macedonian language is language x and language so call Koine is official language in Alexandar's Empire. Curtius in his 6th book show us trial of Philota, a Macedonian who was a naturalized Hellene :

Alexander speaks:
"The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them."
Philota:
"Besides the Macedonians, there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you."
Then the king said:
"Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language."



34 Iamque rex intuens eum, 'Macedones', inquit, 'de te iudicaturi sunt: quaero, an patrio sermone sis apud eos usurus'. 35 Tum Philotas, 'Praeter Macedonas', inquit, 'plerique adsunt, quos facilius, quae dicam, percepturos arbitror, si eadem lingua fuero usus, qua tu egisti, non ob aliud, credo, quam ut oratio tua intellegi posset a pluribus'. 36 Tum rex, 'Ecquid videtis adeo etiam sermonis patrii Philotan taedere? solus quippe fastidiit eum discere. Sed dicat sane, utcumque ei cordi est, dum memineritis, aeque illum a nostro more quam a sermone abhorrere'. Atque ita contione excessit.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Curtius/home.html

Alexander of Macedon speaks of his native ancient Macedonian language and made clear distinction between his native language and Koine language, or as Greecians like to call it, Greek language.



Its a difference between the ancient macedonian Kingdom (Macedon) and the Greek macedonian Empire of Alexander the Great.

Ok then, where you will put Philip 2nd, in the ancient Macedonians Kingdoms (Macedon) or in the Greek Macedonian Empire?

I don't know whether this thread is the real one to continue this conversation? If it isn't just say so:)

[Alexandros]

...
Ok then, where you will put Philip 2nd, in the ancient Macedonians Kingdoms (Macedon) or in the Greek Macedonian Empire?

I don't know whether this thread is the real one to continue this conversation? If it isn't just say so:)

Would you say that the yellow area on this map (https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/521641_292662034167448_1177020128_n.jpg) or the bright orange area on this map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Macedonia_336_BC-en.svg) is also a part of the ancient Macedonian Kingdom (Macedon)?

After this logic is Larissa in Thessaly / Greece, Burgas in Northern-Thrace / Bulgaria or Edirne in Eastern-Thrace / Turkey also a part of the ancient Macedonian Kingdom (Macedon). Is that correct?








Alexandros

[bilbil]

Would you say that the yellow area on this map (https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/521641_292662034167448_1177020128_n.jpg) or the bright orange area on this map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Macedonia_336_BC-en.svg) is also a part of the ancient Macedonian Kingdom (Macedon)?

After this logic is Larissa in Thessaly / Greece, Burgas in Northern-Thrace / Bulgaria or Edirne in Eastern-Thrace / Turkey also a part of the ancient Macedonian Kingdom (Macedon). Is that correct?


Alexandros



Through the history borders of ancient Macedonia were changeable. If we talk about ancient Macedonia of Alexandar or as you want to call it "Greek Macedonian Empire" (which if you ask me is absolutely incorrectly), then yes, these are the borders of Alexandar's Empire
28743

And these are borders of Philip2nd kingdom
28744


This is not an answer on my question. Question is ,where you will put Philip 2nd kingdom, in the ancient Macedonians Kingdoms (Macedon) or in the Greek Macedonian Empire? Was Philip 2nd "ancient Greek" or ancient Macedonian?

[Scholarios]

Nice, we can agree on this. So far Ancient Macedonian language is language x and language so call Koine is official language in Alexandar's Empire. Curtius in his 6th book show us trial of Philota, a Macedonian who was a naturalized Hellene :

Alexander speaks:
"The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them."
Philota:
"Besides the Macedonians, there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you."
Then the king said:
"Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language."



34 Iamque rex intuens eum, 'Macedones', inquit, 'de te iudicaturi sunt: quaero, an patrio sermone sis apud eos usurus'. 35 Tum Philotas, 'Praeter Macedonas', inquit, 'plerique adsunt, quos facilius, quae dicam, percepturos arbitror, si eadem lingua fuero usus, qua tu egisti, non ob aliud, credo, quam ut oratio tua intellegi posset a pluribus'. 36 Tum rex, 'Ecquid videtis adeo etiam sermonis patrii Philotan taedere? solus quippe fastidiit eum discere. Sed dicat sane, utcumque ei cordi est, dum memineritis, aeque illum a nostro more quam a sermone abhorrere'. Atque ita contione excessit.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Curtius/home.html

Alexander of Macedon speaks of his native ancient Macedonian language and made clear distinction between his native language and Koine language, or as Greecians like to call it, Greek language.


The important phrase here is "quos facilius". Do you know Ancient Latin or are you just bullshitting us? The English translation is " more easy". Speaking in Koine is easier, since Athenians, Thessalians cannot understand the Macedonian dialect, the Μακεδονιστὶ τῇ φωνῇ - the Macedonian "voice."

Originally Posted by Emilio Crespo - Languages and dialects in Ancient Macedon

The Pella curse tablet revealed a new dialect of Ancient Greek. Its dialectal features do not coincide with any other dialect known so far and it has no trace of influence of the Attic-Ionic koine. The love defixio provides a new form of North-West Doric and has no parallel in the literary dialects. The curse tablets known so far are all written in the local dialect of the place where they were found, and there is no reason to think that this tablet does not conform to this general rule. Since the Pella curse tablet displays a combination of dialectal features that differ from all other local or literary dialects, the possibility that it was written in som e other dialectal area and then brought to Pella must be excluded

[bilbil]

The important phrase here is "quos facilius". Do you know Ancient Latin or are you just bullshitting us? The English translation is " more easy". Speaking in Koine is easier, since Athenians, Thessalians cannot understand the Macedonian dialect, the Μακεδονιστὶ τῇ φωνῇ - the Macedonian "voice."

Originally Posted by Emilio Crespo - Languages and dialects in Ancient Macedon

The Pella curse tablet revealed a new dialect of Ancient Greek. Its dialectal features do not coincide with any other dialect known so far and it has no trace of influence of the Attic-Ionic koine. The love defixio provides a new form of North-West Doric and has no parallel in the literary dialects. The curse tablets known so far are all written in the local dialect of the place where they were found, and there is no reason to think that this tablet does not conform to this general rule. Since the Pella curse tablet displays a combination of dialectal features that differ from all other local or literary dialects, the possibility that it was written in som e other dialectal area and then brought to Pella must be excluded


I put Latin text to check English translation by yourself and I’m not “bullshitting” anyone. You are wrong in your post, the important phrase here is not "quos facilius" but “sermonis patrii” ie native language, language of his fatherland. So Alexandar have made difference between Koine (or as you call it, Greek language) and language of his fatherland Macedonia ie ancient Macedonian language. But…as I see we have written the same, more or less, and you only want to show your “famous Greek arrogancy”. Your problem is that you want to represent languages who were non understandable to each other, as dialects of one language. In R. of Macedonia almost every bigger city have it’s own dialect, but they are all understandable to each other, as Macedonian language. I believe it is same in Greece too, is Greek in north part same with Greek in south part, let’s say Athena?

I can’t see answer on my question from previous post. Question is ,where you will put Philip 2nd kingdom, in the ancient Macedonians Kingdoms (Macedon) or in the Greek Macedonian Empire? Was Philip 2nd "ancient Greek" or ancient Macedonian?

[Queen B]

I can’t see answer on my question from previous post. Question is ,where you will put Philip 2nd kingdom, in the ancient Macedonians Kingdoms (Macedon) or in the Greek Macedonian Empire? Was Philip 2nd "ancient Greek" or ancient Macedonian?
Macedonian=Greek duhhh.

[bilbil]

Macedonian=Greek duhhh.


Hehe, Greek humor without sense

[Scholarios]

29125

http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=ApzbQNITyPcC&dq=philotas+greek+dialect&hl=ko&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Bibil, I can barely understand you, but your idea to prove a relationship between Modern Slavonic Macedonian language and the language of Ancient Macedonian dialect of Greek is nothing but a putrid absurdity of the worst Balkanic extremist party-line. At no point does any of your rambling make even the slightest bit of sense. It is you who must come down from your esoteric theories and talk sensible with us. Can you see how anything you say is negated by the research? Do you care about the research? I see you were destroyed by Midas many times at HISTORUM forum and any thread with your name in it made everyone groan in boredom with your view of history with an emphasis on "Story".

[Queen B]

Hehe, Greek humor without sense
That's not humor, its the reality.

[bilbil]

29125

http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=ApzbQNITyPcC&dq=philotas+greek+dialect&hl=ko&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Bibil, I can barely understand you, but your idea to prove a relationship between Modern Slavonic Macedonian language and the language of Ancient Macedonian dialect of Greek is nothing but a putrid absurdity of the worst Balkanic extremist party-line. At no point does any of your rambling make even the slightest bit of sense. It is you who must come down from your esoteric theories and talk sensible with us. Can you see how anything you say is negated by the research? Do you care about the research? I see you were destroyed by Midas many times at HISTORUM forum and any thread with your name in it made everyone groan in boredom with your view of history with an emphasis on "Story".


Ooooo, someone is hiding behind another nickname. Perhaps you have no courage for one name, but I stand behind everything what I have written. It will be nice to show yourself under the name we know each other. I'm surprised by your post, how you have come to this conclusion from my previous 5 posts? I am not here to "destroy" anyone or to be "destroyed", but to discuss for facts. How you have connected ancient Macedonian language with Slavic language? I hadn't mention that anywhere, Damn, do you know something and try to hide that from us? hehe
In one of mine previous post I have written "the important phrase here is not "quos facilius" but “sermonis patrii” ie native language, language of his fatherland. So Alexandar have made difference between Koine (or as you call it, Greek language) and language of his fatherland Macedonia ie ancient Macedonian language."

I had not mention anywhere Slavic language, but if you have fly on your head then.....

[Crn Volk]

Ooooo, someone is hiding behind another nickname. Perhaps you have no courage for one name, but I stand behind everything what I have written. It will be nice to show yourself under the name we know each other. I'm surprised by your post, how you have come to this conclusion from my previous 5 posts? I am not here to "destroy" anyone or to be "destroyed", but to discuss for facts. How you have connected ancient Macedonian language with Slavic language? I hadn't mention that anywhere, Damn, do you know something and try to hide that from us? hehe
In one of mine previous post I have written "the important phrase here is not "quos facilius" but “sermonis patrii” ie native language, language of his fatherland. So Alexandar have made difference between Koine (or as you call it, Greek language) and language of his fatherland Macedonia ie ancient Macedonian language."

I had not mention anywhere Slavic language, but if you have fly on your head then.....

Yes, the Greeks like to portray us as some kind of extremists with crazy theories. Our position is sound and correct. The ancient Macedonians were a non-Greek people who became Hellenised over time. In saying this though, Greeks were present in coastal Macedonia from ancient times. The language of the ancient Macedonians was a Thraco-Illyrian dialect. The Slavs and peoples of Byzantine Macedonia mixed to produce today's Macedonians. We speak a Slavic language today as a result of this ethnogenisis. There is nothing unusual about this process, we see it all over Europe and the world infact. For example, today's English people are a mix of old Britains, Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Normans.

[Scholarios]

Sokol, you are 100% wrong about the Ancient Macedonians. The language of the Macedonians was not a Thraco-Illyrian dialect.
It was a dialect of Northwest Greek influenced by other languages, including an unknown Indo-European language, probably the language of the Briges. Illyrians(possibly) and Thracians(dedfinitely) were both present in Macedonia at different times. The Macedones themselves however were undeniably Greek, they spoke a dialect of Greek markedly different than the Ionic dialect of the coasts but still Greek. Please see the sources.


29216

29217

and especially for Bibil on Philotas' speech;

29218

But that is a separate thesis from the 2nd part of your statement, which is generally true. However, I believe you have the right to call yourself what you want to call yourself, but the term "Macedonian" is particularly arbitrary and is very misleading. Fine, but please lets have the historical record speak for the Ancient Macedonians- a Greek speaking group of antiquity that is extinct by assimilation and Atticization.

[Scholarios]

Bibil, you don't need to say anything about Slavic languages here, I know your agenda, I have seen you in action before.

Anyways, Koine and Ancient Macedonian were both Greek languages.

29219

Do you know the difference between the Latin word "Sermonis" and "Lingua".

Lingua- Language

Sermonis generative form of Latin Sermonea conversation, discussion
a rumor, diction, speech, talk

How might we interpret this? Especially in light of the sources...

[Queen B]

The language of the ancient Macedonians was a Thraco-Illyrian dialect. The Slavs and peoples of Byzantine Macedonia mixed to produce today's Macedonians. We speak a Slavic language today as a result of this ethnogenisis. There is nothing unusual about this process, we see it all over Europe and the world infact. For example, today's English people are a mix of old Britains, Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Normans.
Have you read Pella Katadesmos?

[Crn Volk]

Have you read Pella Katadesmos?

No, have you read Taga Za Jug?

[Alexandros]

Have you read Pella Katadesmos?


The ''Pella Katadesmos'' prove that the simple ancient Macedonians speak also a Greek language ... not only the ''high society''.

Picture:
http://www.brynmawr.edu/classics/redmonds/H4-CST1.gif

More information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet







Alexandros

[morski]

No, have you read Taga Za Jug?

By the Bulgarian Konstantin Miladinov you mean?:D

[Queen B]

No, have you read Taga Za Jug?
Pella Katadesmos is a tablet with Ancient Macedonian Dialect.
If you call yourself a Macedonian, you should know it already, be able to read it, and understand it.,

[bilbil]

29216

29217

and especially for Bibil on Philotas' speech;

29218

But that is a separate thesis from the 2nd part of your statement, which is generally true. However, I believe you have the right to call yourself what you want to call yourself, but the term "Macedonian" is particularly arbitrary and is very misleading. Fine, but please lets have the historical record speak for the Ancient Macedonians- a Greek speaking group of antiquity that is extinct by assimilation and Atticization.

Since we know each other from historum, perhaps you can remember that in one of my posts I said that if we couldn’t find solution for your problem with Macedonians, only God know what we will find out in history.

Damn, do you think this is 19th and that you have across you non educated peasant or voulgares? Anyhow,
sermonis patrii

sermo, sermonis
conversation, discussion; rumor; diction; speech; talk; the word;

patrius, patria, patrium
father's, paternal; ancestral;


As I understood you, you said that sermonis have not meaning of language. Lets see who are synonyms for language:

1. language, linguistic communication

a systematic means of communicating by the use of sounds or conventional symbols
Synonyms:
words, speech, terminology, spoken language, spoken communication, speech communication, voice communication, in some dictionaries is mention and dialect.
http://www.synonyms.net/synonym/language

People call these terms synonyms.


So, the point is that Alexander of Macedon
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?54863-Maps-of-Macedonia&p=1399227&viewfull=1#post1399227

speaks of his native ancient Macedonian language and made clear distinction between his native language (language X) and Koine language, or as Greecians like to call it, Greek language, which is absolutely wrong. This is the territory of Alexandar’s Empire where official language was Koine, language of administration and aristocracy:

29433

and to said that for all people from that territory, native language was Greek is very inaccurate and wrong.

Book pages you have posted said the same with I have written here. I have nowhere said that ancient Macedonians didn’t spoke Koine language or as you call it Greek language. The point is that Koine wasn’t their native language. You want to see ancient Macedonians only as Koine speakers and you don’t like to see that theirs native language was some other language. OK, lets just say Alexandar is questionable, that is why I have asked you whether Filip 2 was ancient Macedonian or “ancient Greek”? Iam still waiting for an answer.

Please, avoid to post a page or two from some book, give us all book if it’s possible. This is the link to the Gandeto’s book and there is treated Quintus and ancient Macedonian language. Please read it (pg28 on the bottom, but all book is very interesting):
http://books.google.mk/books?id=L6xBsaLlFyYC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=macedonians+will+judge+your+case&source=bl&ots=Z593aD-USr&sig=eEbXATzgr-aLIZbwQgvmo4YviVQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3-1qULmxO4rCtAb9koDIDg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=macedonians%20will%20judge%20your%20case&f=false

Here is what Strabo have written
“the Thessalians in particular wore long robes, probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region,”
http://soltdm.com/sources/mss/strab/11.htm 011.014.012
(just to think on it)



You have to understand, as much us you want to make distinction between today Macedonians with ancient Macedonians, as much as I want to make clear distinction between today Greeks with “ancient Greeks”. That’s why when I discuss for Alexandar and Filip I always use term “ancient”. Aca and Filip belong to all world.



By the Bulgarian Konstantin Miladinov you mean?

Ah bre Morski, here is a letter wrote by D. Miladinov and I am sure that you, as Bulgarian, will understand what “other Bulgarian”, Miladinov, have written:
29434

Morski, we have started conversation, will you stay on subject. Thanks,

[morski]

Seems to be in Greek, which I don't read. And your point is?

[Crn Volk]

Actually this thread is about Maps of Macedonia. I think the Macedonian language thread might be more suited to such discussions.

[wvwvw]

Ethnographic map by the German cartographer, Heinrich Kiepert depicting Balkans.

(a) The ethnographic maps of the famous cartographer who was distinguished for the scientific value of his maps, depicts the region of Macedonia. as being inhabited primarily by Greeks and secondly by Bulgarians.
(b) neither Kiepert in his time knew any “Macedonian” nationality. On the contrary the Slavs of his time were Bulgarians and Serbs.
Geographer Heinrich Kiepert (1818-1899) is generally reckoned one of the more important scholarly cartographers of the second half of the 19th century. The fame attached to the name of this renowned German geographer and cartographer, H dates from the appearance of his distinguished Atlas von Hellas (1846).

Kiepert acquired one of his interests—the historical geography of the classical world—in his student days at the University of Berlin, where he worked with Carl Ritter (1779-1859). Ritter and Kiepert produced what appears to have been one of the first modern atlases of the ancient Greek world, Topographisch-historischer Atlas von Hellas und den hellenischen Colonien in 24 Blättern (1840-1846). Several additional compilations of maps of the classical world followed: Bibel-Atlas (1847); Historisch-geographischer Atlas der alten Welt (1848); Atlas antiquus (1854); Formae orbis antiqui (1893); and Formae urbis Romae antiquae (1896). Many of these works were reissued in numerous editions, including translations.

Another major interest was the Ottoman Empire, where Kiepert travelled numerous times, gathering enough data to produce several major maps of the Ottoman world between the 1840s and 1890s.

More Infos about Heinrich Kiepert’s life:
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/collections/maps/kiepert/

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ethnographic_map_kiepert.png

[wvwvw]

In this British Edition Map of Greece from 1829, the whole of Macedonia is in Greece proper and considered a Greek province. Also notice that all the names of cities in Macedonia are Greek. Skopje (Scupi) is outside of the territory of Macedonia and is in Dardania Propria.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/rareenglishmapof1829.jpg

[Crn Volk]

Map of ethnic Macedonian population in 1947

http://www.mn.mk/images/stories/2013/11/egejska-makedonija-naselenie.jpg

[morski]

Map of ethnic Macedonian population in 1947

http://www.mn.mk/images/stories/2013/11/egejska-makedonija-naselenie.jpg

Buahaha.:D

According to the Communist Parties of Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Greece... :picard1:

[Vojnik]

Interesting map found the races of Europe book.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/11200/11200-h/11200-h.htm
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/11200/11200-h/map03.jpg

[Kastrioti1443]

FYROM was created by Tito in 1960s. what are these '' Macedonia'' maps?????

[Vojnik]

FYROM was created by Tito in 1960s. what are these '' Macedonia'' maps?????

Some are new, some old and some ethnographic. What else do you want me to say. Macedonia obviously existed before Tito if their are maps before he was even born to prove it.

[Kastrioti1443]

Some are new, some old and some ethnographic. What else do you want me to say. Macedonia obviously existed before Tito if their are maps before he was even born to prove it.

You are very wrong, the slavic speaking people of FYROM in every ethno-linguistic maps were considered bugarians.

[Vojnik]

You are very wrong, the slavic speaking people of FYROM in every ethno-linguistic maps were considered bugarians.

Not every, but in most cases it's true. But my point is that a Macedonia has existed on maps way before Tito.

[Kastrioti1443]

Not every, but in most cases it's true. But my point is that a Macedonia has existed on maps way before Tito.

Macedonia was just a regional term, nothing to do with ethnicity of the people.

[Crn Volk]

Greek recognition of Macedonian Slavs within their borders in 1919;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Hellenism_in_the_Near_East_1918.jpg

[Crn Volk]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Map_of_Balkans_linguistic_groups_late_3rd_millenni um_BC%2C_according_to_Georgiev.png

Map of Balkans linguistic groups late 3rd millenium BC, according to V. Georgiev. Introduction to the history of the Indo-European languages. V I Georgiev. Balgarska akademiya na naukite, 1981. Pages 47-48 & Map 2.

[Scholarios]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Map_of_Balkans_linguistic_groups_late_3rd_millenni um_BC%2C_according_to_Georgiev.png

Map of Balkans linguistic groups late 3rd millenium BC, according to V. Georgiev. Introduction to the history of the Indo-European languages. V I Georgiev. Balgarska akademiya na naukite, 1981. Pages 47-48 & Map 2.

Weird. We've got Proto-Greek and Proto-Phrygian ( a Greek sister-language (http://http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Phrygian)) sandwiching something called Proto-Macedonian. I wonder what it could mean...

[poiuytrewq0987]

Map of Balkans linguistic groups late 3rd millenium BC, according to V. Georgiev. Introduction to the history of the Indo-European languages. V I Georgiev. Balgarska akademiya na naukite, 1981. Pages 47-48 & Map 2.

Amazing! Can you post examples of this "proto-Macedonian" language? :laugh:

[poiuytrewq0987]

From a Russian-made ethnographic map of Slavs in Europe. :coffee:

https://s18.postimg.org/shnpkfgl5/13995541_310916002592986_3134628457973306083_o.jpg

[Thrabul]

A German ethnic map of Europe 1847
http://i.imgur.com/Z6fFAo4.jpg

An ethnic map of Europe in 1918
http://i.imgur.com/1v2XYdI.jpg

[Crn Volk]

Some maps from 1918;

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-x5l49fD30Nw/TrkyIlWS1tI/AAAAAAAAAb8/bb-QiLa9mog/s1600/3.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gQY0sghFfu8/TrkzeNssAAI/AAAAAAAAAcM/WPf5BJCVUNs/s1600/5.jpg

From 1940, New York

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NeM44JfSOo8/Trl_s0laqQI/AAAAAAAAAek/a8b2QlWLrp0/s1600/Balkans_Pix8.gif

[poiuytrewq0987]

From a Russian-made ethnographic map of Slavs in Europe. :coffee:

https://s18.postimg.org/shnpkfgl5/13995541_310916002592986_3134628457973306083_o.jpg

[Crn Volk]

http://pre06.deviantart.net/6f32/th/pre/f/2016/021/9/2/balkan_socialist_federation__1964_by_1blomma-d9osk71.jpg

[Crn Volk]

Modern Russian map of historical Macedonia

http://zurnal.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Ruska-reportaza-za-Makedonija.png

[Crn Volk]

Map of English cartographer Robert Wilkinson from 1797 from his "Atlas Classica".

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-J4OvcbuQ0Q0/WgoRf3e9gPI/AAAAAAAAvmE/z0DHlgygpPIbXKKBXuoldZd7JgdUlwa9ACLcBGAs/s1600/landkarte-mazedonien-1797-Robert-Wilkinson-macedonia-map-1.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Qz-3m0boX-4/WgoRpWTZ__I/AAAAAAAAvmM/K5hDBDeGm8QyKCy69lujGOUPjDPOf7FnQCLcBGAs/s1600/landkarte-mazedonien-1797-Robert-Wilkinson-macedonia-map-2.jpg

[Vojnik]

Map of English cartographer Robert Wilkinson from 1797 from his "Atlas Classica".



Long live Macedonia.

Acts 20:
20 When the uproar was over, Paul sent for the disciples and encouraged them. Then he said goodbye to them and left to go to Macedonia. 2 He went through those regions and encouraged the people[a (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+20&version=ISV#fen-ISV-27626a)] with everything he had to say. Then he went to Greece 3 and stayed there for three months.

[Vojnik]

Volk. Kaj go najde toa karta?

[Crn Volk]

Volk. Kaj go najde toa karta?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Atlas_Classica%2C_Robert_Wilkinson%2C_1797.pdf

Vidi stranite 16 i 56 :thumb001:

Eve i ovde malce


https://www.motika.com.mk/kartata-na-makedonija-vo-atlasot-na-angliskiot-kartograf-robert-vilkinson-od-1797/

[Crn Volk]

Another British map from 1931

https://i.imgur.com/dT7Hbhh.jpg

[Crn Volk]

Political poster published by the Greek Government in 1940 shows Metaxas in front of a map of Greece and a divided Macedonia. The map shows very clearly "Serbian Macedonia" and "Bulgarian Macedonia" to the north of Greece's borders.

https://patrimonio.archivioluce.com/luce-web/imageViewPort/720?imageName=RG/RG153/RG00007810.JPG

https://patrimonio.archivioluce.com/luce-web/imageViewPort/720?imageName=RG/RG153/RG00007809.JPG

[Crn Volk]

Recent Greek police map of Macedonia

https://greece.greekreporter.com/files/26-1-696x314.jpg

https://greece.greekreporter.com/2018/11/22/greek-police-calendar-map-shows-fyrom-as-macedonia-occupied-part-as-north-cyprus/

[Vojnik]

A 1692 depiction of Canaan, By Phillip Lea:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/A_map_of_Canaan_%288343807206%29.jpg/800px-A_map_of_Canaan_%288343807206%29.jpg

[Vojnik]

Greek map of Macedonia, 1872:

https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50497988_10216681694330761_6271641761085390848_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=25d732b4a4d9fa6b0bd2e1621254c07b&oe=5CCB819C

[Crn Volk]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dyah-DcW0AI1Tjz?format=jpg&name=medium

[Crn Volk]

Free Macedonia, in Nazi newspaper Völkischer Beobachter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lkischer_Beobachter) May 6, 1941

https://i2.wp.com/www.zukunft-braucht-erinnerung.de/wp-content/uploads/makedonien_004.jpg?resize=336%2C227

[Vojnik]

Look at what these amnesia stricken Greeks called the Republic of Macedonia when it was within Yugoslavia:

"Makedonia"

https://scontent.fmel3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/27067531_143800809633915_5852183925776537374_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel3-1.fna&oh=91c582a77d6f319ab39a89d1121b72bc&oe=5D0C1E34

[Vojnik]

Another Greek made map from 1974 showing Macedonia within Yugoslavia.

https://scontent.fmel3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/26231482_2236889339670277_5440025289119929162_n.jp g?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel3-1.fna&oh=0dee110a59df769535641b60a0fffa08&oe=5D09C628

[Mingle]

:p

http://i.imgur.com/B55WMem.png

[Pribislav]

Ethnic map of North Macedonia.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/aa/d2/e0/aad2e0a9834c80917c5001d1ca609575--maps-history-cartography.jpg

[Vojnik]

Ethnic map of North Macedonia.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/aa/d2/e0/aad2e0a9834c80917c5001d1ca609575--maps-history-cartography.jpg

Vlachs and Albanians are way way too overemphasised in Bitola in your map.

Bitola municipality.
Macedonians: 94,538
Albanians: 4,219
Vlachs: 1,271

Language map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Makedonija_-_Jezicki_sastav_po_naseljima_2002.gif/800px-Makedonija_-_Jezicki_sastav_po_naseljima_2002.gif


Ethnic Map of Macedonia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Map_of_the_majority_ethnic_groups_of_Macedonia_by_ municipality.svg/1200px-Map_of_the_majority_ethnic_groups_of_Macedonia_by_ municipality.svg.png

[Mingle]

https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/Macedonia

[Pribislav]

Vlachs and Albanians are way way too overemphasised in Bitola in your map.

Bitola municipality.
Macedonians: 94,538
Albanians: 4,219
Vlachs: 1,271

Language map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Makedonija_-_Jezicki_sastav_po_naseljima_2002.gif/800px-Makedonija_-_Jezicki_sastav_po_naseljima_2002.gif


Ethnic Map of Macedonia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Map_of_the_majority_ethnic_groups_of_Macedonia_by_ municipality.svg/1200px-Map_of_the_majority_ethnic_groups_of_Macedonia_by_ municipality.svg.png

Vlachs disappeared due to makedonization. :)

[Crn Volk]

Vlachs disappeared due to makedonization. :)

A natural process. Macedonisation stronk!

[Pribislav]

A natural process. Macedonisation stronk!

Right now albanization is strong in FYROM!

[Crn Volk]

Right now albanization is strong in FYROM!

And in Kosovo too apparently

[Pribislav]

And in Kosovo too apparently

You as imigrant in Australia are big Macddonian nationalist. Go to Tetovo, Kičevo or Gostivar and there big Macedonian ultra-nationalist!

[Crn Volk]

You as imigrant in Australia are big Macddonian nationalist. Go to Tetovo, Kičevo or Gostivar and there big Macedonian ultra-nationalist!

Been there. My brother in law is from Tetovo. Besides, those areas are still part of Macedonia and will remain as such, unlike Kosovo which will never be part of Serbia again. Your army will never set foot again on Kosovo soil, whereas the Macedonian army has barracks and bases all across those regions you mentioned.

[Pribislav]

Been there. My brother in law is from Tetovo. Besides, those areas are still part of Macedonia and will remain as such, unlike Kosovo which will never be part of Serbia again. Your army will never set foot again on Kosovo soil, whereas the Macedonian army has barracks and bases all across those regions you mentioned.

Kosovo is currently occupied by NATO. Albanians only play that they have own state.

Problem with Kosovo will be resolved in futute like in 1912.

Even without Kosovo Serbia is several times bigger than Fyrom. For few years Republika Srpska will unite with Serbia.

[Crn Volk]

Kosovo is currently occupied by NATO. Albanians only play that they have own state.

Problem with Kosovo will be resolved in futute like in 1912.

Even without Kosovo Serbia is several times bigger than Fyrom. For few years Republika Srpska will unite with Serbia.

Good luck with that.

[Novi Pazar]

Kosovo is currently occupied by NATO. Albanians only play that they have own state.

Problem with Kosovo will be resolved in futute like in 1912.

Even without Kosovo Serbia is several times bigger than Fyrom. For few years Republika Srpska will unite with Serbia.

We all know Kosovo is a 'Fake State' and a dependency. Albanians have no future there and are leaving, the future/time is with Serbia! Geopolitics is changing and is now being battled in the pacific.

Makedonci believe the future is with NATO, the future is in the EAST not west! Hopefully a Russian base will be inside Serbia or anywhere in Balkans to keep out this elitist demonic western Masonic-Banking families.

[Hrant Dink]

Free Macedonia, in Nazi newspaper Völkischer Beobachter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lkischer_Beobachter) May 6, 1941

https://i2.wp.com/www.zukunft-braucht-erinnerung.de/wp-content/uploads/makedonien_004.jpg?resize=336%2C227Nice job hearkening back to your Nazi past. You must be so proud!


Another Greek made map from 1974 showing Macedonia within Yugoslavia.

https://scontent.fmel3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/26231482_2236889339670277_5440025289119929162_n.jp g?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel3-1.fna&oh=0dee110a59df769535641b60a0fffa08&oe=5D09C628Within Yugoslavia is the key. Greece didn't worry much what the clowns in Skopje did as long as you were part of Yugoslavia. There was also the Cold War aspect which required Greece not to be adversarial towards Tito. In return, he made Skopje tone down their propaganda when they went too far.

Interesting that Greece didn't censor your bullshit despite being ruled by nationalist governments and an uber-nationalist dictatorship after the war. Meanwhile some of your diaspora lunatics can still be found online claiming that Macedonia was never used as a place name in Greece, and that the name Macedonia was illegal in Greece until the 1990s.

[Crn Volk]

Nice job hearkening back to your Nazi past. You must be so proud! .

No Tito did it!

#titodidit

[Vojnik]

Nice job hearkening back to your Nazi past. You must be so proud!

Within Yugoslavia is the key. Greece didn't worry much what the clowns in Skopje did as long as you were part of Yugoslavia. There was also the Cold War aspect which required Greece not to be adversarial towards Tito. In return, he made Skopje tone down their propaganda when they went too far.

Interesting that Greece didn't censor your bullshit despite being ruled by nationalist governments and an uber-nationalist dictatorship after the war. Meanwhile some of your diaspora lunatics can still be found online claiming that Macedonia was never used as a place name in Greece, and that the name Macedonia was illegal in Greece until the 1990s.

Wouldn't Greece have been more worried that Yugoslavia, a much larger, more powerful country, had a state named Macedonia? That would have been a much bigger threat.

[Vojnik]

Ethnographic map of West Macedonia. In a book by Dimitrios Lithoksou. Titled "the greek anti-macedonian struggle". From 1903-1905.


Macedonian Christians in red. 'Greek' Christians in dark blue. Turks in green.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Toponimi.jpg

And on the map table of contents there is written clearly "Makedones Hristianoi". Separate from "Ellines Hristianoi".

My village is in it. And it is full Macedonian Christian.

[Crn Volk]

Ethnographic map of West Macedonia. In a book by Dimitrios Lithoksou. Titled "the greek anti-macedonian struggle". From 1903-1905.


Macedonian Christians in red. 'Greek' Christians in dark blue. Turks in green.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Toponimi.jpg

And on the map table of contents there is written clearly "Makedones Hristianoi". Separate from "Ellines Hristianoi".

My village is in it. And it is full Macedonian Christian.

Hrank Dink which village are your ancestors from?

[Vojnik]

Hrank Dink which village are your ancestors from?

Who's that other Grkoman we have here? If i'm not mistaken, he is from either Gorno or Dolno Kleshtino. Gorno (upper) Kleshtino appears to be Albanian. Dolno (lower) Kleshtino appears to be Macedonian Christian.

Oh, I think it's Darknesswin.

[Hrant Dink]

No Tito did it!

#titodiditi have no doubt many of you secretly pray to a Tito icon every night.



Wouldn't Greece have been more worried that Yugoslavia, a much larger, more powerful country, had a state named Macedonia? That would have been a much bigger threat.Much larger, much more powerful is up for debate. Bigger issue was that Yugoslavia feared a Soviet invasion after the Tito-Stalin split.

Once Greece-Yugoslavia relations were normalized, what was the threat to Greece as long as it remained a province inside Yugoslavia, especially once Greece saw that it was treated like a red-headed stepchild within Yugoslavia?

Why didn't communist Yugoslavia worry that Greece had a province called Macedonia since 1912?


Ethnographic map of West Macedonia. In a book by Dimitrios Lithoksou. Titled "the greek anti-macedonian struggle". From 1903-1905.


Macedonian Christians in red. 'Greek' Christians in dark blue. Turks in green.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Toponimi.jpg

And on the map table of contents there is written clearly "Makedones Hristianoi". Separate from "Ellines Hristianoi".

My village is in it. And it is full Macedonian Christian.LOL, is this guy still alive? Old-time, unrepentant Greek communist with an axe to grind who has no standing among respected Balkan scholars. Perfect guy for the Srboman crowd.

And if that map was actually accurate (which it isn't), how the hell did you lose so badly?


Hrank Dink which village are your ancestors from?I'm gonna go with one that destroyed yours and forced you to move to Australia.

[Daco Celtic]

Vlach on the cover?

https://i.imgur.com/1U9VE6F.jpg

[Dimos]

My village is Hrupista aka Argos Orestiko and it was never Bulgarian by any means. The map is not correct

[Vojnik]

My village is Hrupista aka Argos Orestiko and it was never Bulgarian by any means. The map is not correct

It's showing Hrupishta as a very mixed village. With a majority Macedonian population.

Goes hand in hand with Vasil Kanchov's statistics:


В края на XIX век Хрупища е център на нахия в Костурска каза и има силно смесено население. Според статистиката на Васил Кънчов (https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB_%D0%9A%D1%8A%D0%BD% D1%87%D0%BE%D0%B2) („Македония. Етнография и статистика (https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D 1%8F._%D0%95%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D 1%84%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B8_%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D 0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0)“) в 1900 Хрупища има 2690 жители, от които 1100 българи (https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D1%8A%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8), 700 турци (https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%83%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B8), 720 власи (https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8)и 170 цигани (https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A6%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8).[3] (https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%89%D0%B0#cite_no te-3)

Out of 2690 people, Hrupishta had:
1100 Bulgarians (Macedonians), 700 Turks, 720 Vlachs, 170 Gypsies.

Which one did your relatives belong to out of those nationalities in 1900?

[Hrant Dink]

It's showing Hrupishta as a very mixed village. With a majority Macedonian population.

Goes hand in hand with Vasil Kanchov's statistics:



Out of 2690 people, Hrupishta had:
1100 Bulgarians (Macedonians), 700 Turks, 720 Vlachs, 170 Gypsies.

Which one did your relatives belong to out of those nationalities in 1900?
Hand in hand my purple butt. Kanchov called them Bulgarians, not Macedonians. If you cite his stats, then you have to call yourself Bulgarian. Otherwise you're a hypocrite.

[Vojnik]

Hand in hand my purple butt. Kanchov called them Bulgarians, not Macedonians. If you cite his stats, then you have to call yourself Bulgarian. Otherwise you're a hypocrite.

Have you seen his other quote from another one of his books where he states that: "Bulgarians and Vlachs of Macedonia call themselves Macedonians, and the surrounding nations call them Macedonians. Turks and Albanians do not call themselves Macedonians. Greeks from the south don't call themselves Macedonians". That's a paraphrase of what Kanchov said purple butt.

[Pribislav]

Have you seen his other quote from another one of his books where he states that: "Bulgarians and Vlachs of Macedonia call themselves Macedonians, and the surrounding nations call them Macedonians. Turks and Albanians do not call themselves Macedonians. Greeks from the south don't call themselves Macedonians". That's a paraphrase of what Kanchov said purple butt.

What about Serbs of Macedonia?

[Crn Volk]

What about Serbs of Macedonia?

Irrelevant, just like Jews, Gypsies and other small minorities

[Pribislav]

Irrelevant, just like Jews, Gypsies and other small minorities

:picard1:
https://i.postimg.cc/jjYhP0Tz/pop.png

[Vojnik]

What about Serbs of Macedonia?

Pretty much this:


Irrelevant, just like Jews, Gypsies and other small minorities

But, Kanchov worked for the Bulgar propaganda machine, so he would have counted all native Slavic speakers as 'Balgari' i'd assume.

But in his book "Makedonia. Etnografia i Statistika", he mentions abit about the Serbs of Macedonia:


Pure Serbs in Macedonia now have about 300 people in the city of Skopje, some from Old Serbia after becoming Skopje vilayski towns, others from Serbia about the Serbian agency and the Serbian schools as clerks and craftsmen. [ (http://www.promacedonia.org/vk/vk_1_b17.htm#123_2)2 (http://www.promacedonia.org/vk/vk_1_b17.htm#123_2)] (http://www.promacedonia.org/vk/vk_1_b17.htm#123_2) In the region of Skopje, there is one Serb-Bosnian village, Hasan Begovo , with about 50 Bosnian Muslims, born in Bosnia in a new town. In Tetovo there are several Croatian brothers from the Prizrens who have been taught in language. Finally there are about 100 Serbs in Salonika, all of whom live as clerks and teachers in the consulate and school in Serbia, and as commission agents for trade with Serbia.

http://www.promacedonia.org/vk/vk_1_b17.htm



This is the actual quote i mentioned before from his book called "Orohidrografija na Makedonija":


The local Bulgarians and Kucovlachs who live in the area of Macedonia call themselves Macedonians, and the surrounding nations also call them so. Turks and Arnauts from Macedonia do not call themselves Macedonians, but when asked where they are from, they respond: from Macedonia. Arnauts from the north and north west limits of the area, who also call their country Anautluk, and Greeks who live in the southern areas, do not call themselves Macedonians, hence the borders in these areas according to the peoples’ perception are not clearly defined.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:Orohydrography_of_Macedonia

So even though he had to follow a script and call Macedonians 'Balgari', he just could not hide the fact that these so called 'Balgari' actually called themselves Macedonians from Macedonia, and so did their neighbouring people.

[Hrant Dink]

Have you seen his other quote from another one of his books where he states that: "Bulgarians and Vlachs of Macedonia call themselves Macedonians, and the surrounding nations call them Macedonians. Turks and Albanians do not call themselves Macedonians. Greeks from the south don't call themselves Macedonians". That's a paraphrase of what Kanchov said purple butt.You forgot the part where the Chinese and Japanese also called them Macedonians.

[Crn Volk]

You forgot the part where the Chinese and Japanese also called them Macedonians.

They still do, as does everyone else including the Greek government. Time to pack it in dink

[Vojnik]

https://scontent.fmel3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/57447278_2454560007900156_1175211117857734656_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel3-1.fna&oh=88e43142a2194b2cf7a63598b9950b0a&oe=5D3583FF

[Vojnik]

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/The%20Bogomils/TheBogomilsMap.jpg

[Crn Volk]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=90998&d=1567463799
90998

[Crn Volk]

https://www.germanstamps.net/wp-content/gallery/album_tr_occ_mac/xalbum_tr_occ_mac_01.jpg

https://www.germanstamps.net/album_tr_occ_mac/

[Vojnik]

https://www.germanstamps.net/album_tr_occ_mac/

Bad part of our history. With the pro bulgar, nazi collaborator, Vancho Mihailov.

[Crn Volk]

Bad part of our history. With the pro bulgar, nazi collaborator, Vancho Mihailov.

I would argue, communism was a bad part of our history.

[Vojnik]

I would argue, communism was a bad part of our history.

Bro. Mihajlov cooperated with Hitler. Even had meetings. Not to mention all the dead bodies he left behind. One of those being Aleksandrov.

Communism wasn’t the greatest either. But at least it was utilised in order for Macedonians to gain some autonomy.

[Crn Volk]

Bro. Mihajlov cooperated with Hitler. Even had meetings. Not to mention all the dead bodies he left behind. One of those being Aleksandrov.

Communism wasn’t the greatest either. But at least it was utilised in order for Macedonians to gain some autonomy.

The first independent Macedonian state was precisely the Independent State of Macedonia established on 8 Sep, 1944 by order of Hitler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Macedonia_(1944)

The second independent Macedonian state was created on 8 Sep, 1991 after independence referendum from Yugoslavia.

[Crn Volk]

https://scontent.fmel12-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/13528869_1054544277956022_6331803673029866693_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=X-3YG9dgFP4AX_DU3Wz&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel12-1.fna&tp=14&oh=b8da127f3963fa176e44229f87670a60&oe=5FB9AE36

[Crn Volk]

German map of Slavic Macedonian state of Tsar Samuel

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Samuels_Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg

[Crn Volk]

A simplified ethnic map of the Balkans for Hungarian military officers
Source
Magyar Katonai Közlöny (Hungarian Military Bulletin), 1913, April
https://www.balkanethnicmaps.hu/IMG/newmap_06.png

Ethnographic patch map of Macedonia, cca. 1900 (Austrian version)
Source
HHStA, PA XII, Türkei, Liasse XXV, Kt. 272.
https://www.balkanethnicmaps.hu/IMG/newmap_22.png

Majority patch map of Macedonia from 1905 (Austrian)
Source
HHStA PA XII Türkei Liasse XXV, Kt. 272. 1896-1902
https://www.balkanethnicmaps.hu/IMG/newmap_32.png

[catgeorge]

https://greekcitytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/4-6.jpg

[Cleitus]

This is an Oxymoron...

[Chron]

Just found this site, they've got some cool maps on here. Very big, very detailed.

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/maps.html

[oszkar07]

I read about the narrative that argues Macedonians were originally Bulgarians or the same stock people as Bulgarians.

Which of the following is more true ...

1) Macedonians and specifically Bulgarians have same/similiar origins ... but seperated and changed overtime even also in terms of genetic admixture ?

or

2) Macedonians and Bulgarians are not and never were from same stock of people
in other words Macedonians were never Bulgarians ?

[oszkar07]

I give a bump !

[Geni_kameni]

I read about the narrative that argues Macedonians were originally Bulgarians or the same stock people as Bulgarians.

Which of the following is more true ...

1) Macedonians and specifically Bulgarians have same/similiar origins ... but seperated and changed overtime even also in terms of genetic admixture ?

or

2) Macedonians and Bulgarians are not and never were from same stock of people
in other words Macedonians were never Bulgarians ?

what is k13 of average Macedonian? or PCA?

[oszkar07]

what is k13 of average Macedonian? or PCA?

nobody wants to go there !

[HannibaltheGreat]

How much of do ancient Bulgarian pre slavic haplo samples match with modern bulgarians? Or do they match with other ethnic groups more?