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Pallantides
07-16-2012, 05:09 PM
A little more than a year ago, I noticed (http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2011/05/east-asian-and-african-shift-of-west.html) an interesting pattern in North Europeans: they all tended to be shifted towards East Asians in PCA plots:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oBE7kJoLnU4/UAGg2SV9zDI/AAAAAAAAFAo/NzXX9j5voSA/s1600/waeu_yri_chb_blowup2.png

With respect to the Asian- and African- shift of West Eurasian populations, I note that northern Europeans (and Basques) are less African-shifted than southern Europeans, and, at the same time they are more Asian-shifted: the 16 least Asian-shifted populations have a coastline in the Mediterranean (excluding the Portuguese), while the 16 least African-shifted populations do not (excluding the French).

The same pattern could also be observed in the arrangement of the ancestral components inferred by the Dodecad Project (http://dodecad.blogspot.no/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html). The "Atlantic_Baltic" component, which is modal in Northern Europeans, exhibits lowered genetic divergences to the East Eurasian components (Siberian / East_Asian) relative to the "Southern" component which is modal (in Europe) in Southern Europeans.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tIQmmTLI5QA/UAGhuOAsMnI/AAAAAAAAFAw/s4P1uXbxzwU/s1600/fst.png

The fact that Southern European populations were shifted towards the African side relative to Northern European ones across an African-Asian projection, was interpreted by Moorjani et al. (2011) (http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2011/04/sub-saharan-admixture-in-west-eurasian.html) as evidence of African admixture. As I noted at the time, this entailed the assumption that Northern European populations did not have East Asian admixture, which would also produce the observed pattern:

However, this is clearly a case of seeing the glass half full. The authors prefer the hypothesis that some Caucasoid groups have African ancestry, although the hypothesis that other Caucasoid groups have East Asian ancestry can equally well explain the observed pattern. Indeed, both hypotheses may explain the phenomenon they observe.

It now appears that some of the co-authors of the above paper have realised this, and have detected Central/East Asian admixture in northern Europeans. Writing in the supplement (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nature11258-s1.pdf) of the recent Reich et al. (2012) (http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2012/07/reconstructing-origin-of-native.html) paper, we read this important aside:

A complication in computing this statistic is that Native American, Siberian, and East Asian populations are not all equally genetically related to West Eurasian populations, as we can see empirically from 4 Population Tests of the proposed tree (Yoruba, (French, (East Asian, Native American))) failing dramatically whether the East Asian population is Han, Chukchi, Naukan and Koryak. The explanation for this is outside the scope of this study (it has to do with admixture events in Europe, as we explain in another paper in submission). In practice, however, it means that we cannot simply use a European population like French to represent West Eurasians in Equation S3.2, since if we do this, Equation S3.2 may have a non-zero value for a Native American population, even without recent European admixture.

To address this complication, we took advantage of the fact that east/central Asian admixture has affected northern Europeans to a greater extent than Sardinians (in our separate manuscript in submission, we show that this is a result of the different amounts of central/east Asian-related gene flow into these groups). To quantify this, we computed the statistic f4(San, West Eurasian; Pop1, Pop2) for West Eurasian = Sardinian and West Eurasian = French, and for 24 Siberian and Native American populations (Pop1 and Pop2) (Figure S3.2). Figure S3.2 shows a scatterplot for all 190=20?19/2 possible pairs of these populations. Within nonArctic Native populations, and within Arctic populations (East Greenland Inuit, Chukchi, Naukan and Koryak), the statistics are close to zero, consistent with their being (approximate) clades relative to West Eurasians. In contrast, there are deviations from zero when the comparisons are between non-Arctic Native and Arctic populations, with non-Arctic Native populations showing consistent evidence of being genetically closer to West Eurasians.

David Reich has hinted about ancient admixture in Europeans before (http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2011/10/ichg-2011-webcast.html), and is apparently working (http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2012/06/smbe-2012-abstracts-part-ii.html) on the South Asian admixture event. It would appear that the new works might be using the newer techniques employed in the Reich et al (2012) paper, which allows one to consider multiple admixture events rather than the more simple ones of Reich et al. (2009) (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7263/abs/nature08365.html) and Moorjani et al. (2011) that considered only two ancestral populations.

I will, of course, eagerly wait the publication of the mentioned manuscript, but it appears that this is not the only piece of evidence of gene flow from Central Asia into Europe. In an SMBE 2012 abstract (http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2012/06/smbe-2012-abstracts-part-ii.html) by Palstra et al. we read:

Using an approximate Bayesian framework, we find that present patterns of genetic diversity in Central Asia may be best explained by a demographic history which combines long-term presence of some ethnic groups (Indo-Iranians) with a more recent admixed origin of other groups (Turco-Mongols). Interestingly, the results also provide indications that this region might have genetically influenced Western European populations, rather than vice versa. A further evaluation in MCMC-based Bayesian analyses of isolation-with-migration models confirms the different times of establishment of ethnic groups, and suggests gene flow into Central Asia from the east. The results from the approximate Bayesian and full Bayesian analyses are thus largely congruent. In conclusion, these analyses illustrate the power of Bayesian inference on genetic data and suggest that the high genetic diversity in Central Asia reflects both long-term presence and admixture in more recent historical times.

Neither of these two upcoming pieces of work mention the timing of the Central Asian element in Europe:

One possibility is that the Mesolithic Europeans were Asian-shifted themselves (http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2012/06/mesolithic-iberians-la-brana-arintero.html).

Another one would relate it to the emerging ancient mtDNA picture of deep penetration (http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2012/07/population-strata-in-west-siberian.html) of Mongoloid elements into west Eurasia at the dawn of history, although the western limit of this penetration has not been conclusively ascertained.

Finally, the elements may be a legacy of the Bronze Age Indo-European invasion of Europe (http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2012/07/bronze-age-indo-european-invasion-of.html), piggy-backing on the spread of the latter from their eastern homeland


In two of the existing models of how the latter event took place (the Armenian plateau hypothesis of Gamkrlidze and Ivanov and the Bactria Sogdiana hypothesis of Johanna Nichols), the Indo-Europeans followed separate streams from their eastern homeland into Europe, with some groups following a path north of the Black and Caspian seas, while others followed a southern path from Anatolia to the Balkans. The northern dispersal route would have brought them into contact with the mixed Caucasoid/Mongoloid population of West Siberia and Eastern Europe, and they may have carried some of this DNA across their sweep over Northern Europe.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vIj-JQm6mv0/UAGnVEsYoUI/AAAAAAAAFA8/9Qhs0DMOLC8/s1600/epicenter.pnghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ODGH0_cr_jk/UAGoPUPH8tI/AAAAAAAAFBE/stw13S3Jz_g/s1600/indo_european_migation.jpg

My own working hypothesis would derive the earliest Proto-Indo-Europeans with groups living in Neolithic eastern Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia. There are details to be fleshed out, such as when this group of people reached the Balkans (pending ancient DNA from the region), and how they interfaced with the populations living in the north of the Black and Caspian seas (e.g., via a trans-Caucasus movement or a counterclockwise spread around the Caspian).

We will know soon enough how and when Northern Europeans ended up with an extra slice of Central/East Asian ancestry. Things are looking good for our understanding of events in Eurasian prehistory.


http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2012/07/hints-of-eastcentral-asian-admixture-in.html

finşaų
07-16-2012, 05:22 PM
Beats Congoid every day of the week.

Insuperable
07-16-2012, 05:39 PM
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3372/33912952.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/193/33912952.png/)

The map above was posted by Ibericus
That article is no mystery since North Euro component ( or Atlantic_Baltic ) is slightly shifted towards East Asia but it is till far from it + there is some minor Syberian admixture


The fact that Southern European populations were shifted towards the African side relative to Northern European ones across an African-Asian projection, was interpreted by Moorjani et al. (2011) as evidence of African admixture.

So according to that map Med component is located the most farthest away from the Africans.
My questions are
Do under "Southern Europeans" Sardinians count?
If so how come they are African shifted when med component is located the farthest away from Africans? Are they African influenced?
Is southern component in your chart med component?
.
.
.

Prince Carlo
07-16-2012, 06:16 PM
If so how come they are African shifted when med component is located the farthest away from Africans? Are they African influenced?
Is southern component in your chart med component?.
.

Sardinians are ∼ 10% SWA+NWA on k12b and 0.3% negroid on k10a.

Insuperable
07-16-2012, 06:22 PM
Sardinians are ∼ 10% SWA+NWA on k12b and 0.3% negroid on k10a.

Ok. Thanks. That is probably why they shift towards African population just as Finns with their "minor" Syberian side shift towards Asia

askra
07-16-2012, 06:22 PM
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3372/33912952.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/193/33912952.png/)

The map above was posted by Ibericus
That article is no mystery since North Euro component ( or Atlantic_Baltic ) is slightly shifted towards East Asia but it is till far from it.



So according to that map Med component is located the most farthest away from the Africans.
My questions are
Do under "Southern Europeans" Sardinians count?
If so how come they are African shifted when med component is located the farthest away from Africans? Are they African influenced?
Is southern component in your chart med component?
.
.
.

i don't understand your reference to sardinians

Moorjani at al?
moorjani's research is considered wrong, and the enormous mistakes committed were revealed by dienekes:

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2011/04/sub-saharan-admixture-in-west-eurasian.html


"Sardinians are an important test case for the authors' model. Their 3-population test shows no evidence of admixture, while the 4-population test does. Moreover, their STRUCTURE analysis shows a trivial 0.2%, whereas the authors estimate their Sub-Saharan admixture as 2.9%.
Let's begin by performing a PCA analysis of Sardinians, CHB, and CEU, which is shown below.
(All PCA analyses are done in smartpca as implemented in EIGENSOFT 4.0 beta, withnumoutlieriter set to 0. All analyses are performed over datasets merged in PLINK with the --geno 0.001 flag, which effectively keeps only common markers and ensures a high quality dataset)


CEU is shifted towards CHB relative to Sardinian. This is made more visually obvious if we blow up the CEU/CHB portion of the above plot:

CEU is shifted towards CHB by 2.4% relative to Sardinians. This is quite close to the 2.5% East/South Asian K=3 admixture for Britons in my most recent analysis, done with a different East Asian reference and a different method (ADMIXTURE); the CEU sample of White Utahns has been repeatedly shown to be most similar to people from the British Isles or Northwestern Europe.
Now, let's look at Sardinians, CHB, and YRI:


and a blowup:

Sardinians are shifted 1.1% relative to CEU towards YRI. Again, this is close to the 0.9% K=3 Sub-Saharan ADMIXTURE result I recently obtained.
So, where does the 2.9% Sub-Saharan admixture in Sardinians come from? Moorjani et al. estimate this percentage under the assumption that Northern Europeans are not shifted towards Chinese, i.e., that East Eurasians are irrelevant. Clearly, as we have seen, this is wrong. As we shall see, this erroneous assumption leads to the erroneous admixture estimate.
2.9% Sub-Saharan admixture in Sardinians (?)
Now, I will demonstrate how the spurious 2.9% result can be obtained. By doing so, it will become obvious why Moorjani et al. obtained this result as a result of ignoring the eastern Asian shift of their northern European sample in their analysis.
Here is a PCA plot of Sardinians, CEU, CHB, YRI:

and the blowup:

When we run all four populations together, Sardinians are shifted towards YRI along Dimension 1, and CEU are shifted towards CHB along Dimension 2. Given that the eigenvalue for PC1 is approximately twice (50.15) that for PC2 (25.31), and doing a little high school geometry on the triangle (Sardinian, CEU, YRI), we project Sardinian onto the CEU-YRI line, intersecting at point X. We thus obtain the estimated "CEU" admixture as:
[distance(YRI,X)-distance(X,CEU)]/[distance(YRI,X)+distance(X,CEU)] = [distance(YRI, Sardinian)^2-distance(CEU,Sardinian)^2] / distance(CEU,YRI)^2
which equals 0.971021, and so, "YRI" admixture is 2.9%!"



this is a new updated autosomal map, realised few weeks ago (sardinians cluster next to spaniards and northern italians)

http://i40.tinypic.com/2rzxo4j.png

Insuperable
07-16-2012, 06:27 PM
I chosed Sardinians because they are Southern Europeans and in some studies they are up to 70% Med but as Joseph Capelli posted I was not so aware of that

Pallantides
07-16-2012, 06:35 PM
this is a new updated autosomal map, realised few weeks ago (sardinians cluster next to spaniards and northern italians)

http://i40.tinypic.com/2rzxo4j.png

That one is quite old I believe, look at the lack of samples(there is no Scandinavian cluster like in the newer maps... at least I can see myself 'NO2' though:P)

http://bga101.blogspot.no/

Dacul
07-16-2012, 07:12 PM
Beats Congoid every day of the week.

You are albanian,so how someone could trust you?

Pallantides
07-16-2012, 07:14 PM
You are albanian,so how someone could trust you?

lol fin is a Swede...

Dacul
07-16-2012, 07:15 PM
You do not know what I am talking about but finşaų think he remembers.

Accountant
07-16-2012, 07:15 PM
lol fin is a Swede...

Just wait..he will find a Wikipedia article which states that finbau is actually an Albanian.

Pallantides
07-16-2012, 07:17 PM
You do not know what I am talking about but finşaų think he remembers.

Yeah I know rashka accused him of being an Albanian just because he stated that Albanian is an IE language...

evon
07-16-2012, 07:28 PM
Well, at least now i dont feel so alone among my fellow europeans, we are now all mongs after all :D although parts of my ancestry is probably more recent in nature, but who cares :P

Polako also mentioned this at ABF (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=35193) a few days ago, he said that much of what is considered European in most upto now admixture runs is actually "Eurasian", in all likelihood east asian from what we can tell, so if my predictions come true, in the coming months we will see a huge change in admixture results if we can figure out which of this "european" admixture is actually east asian.

The real question is what time and for what reason this came into the europe? this/these waves of people will solve allot of the historical puzzles that we have about Eurasian history, if we can successfully date the movements. I just hope people dont start talking about the Huns again, as thats what people always bring up...

Insuperable
07-16-2012, 07:38 PM
Well, at least now i dont feel so alone among my fellow europeans, we are now all mongs after all :D although parts of my ancestry is probably more recent in nature, but who cares :P

Polako also mentioned this at ABF (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=35193) a few days ago, he said that much of what is considered European in most upto now admixture runs is actually "Eurasian", in all likelihood east asian from what we can tell, so if my predictions come true, in the coming months we will see a huge change in admixture results if we can figure out which of this "european" admixture is actually east asian.

The real question is what time and for what reason this came into the europe? this/these waves of people will solve allot of the historical puzzles that we have about Eurasian history, if we can successfully date the movements. I just hope people dont start talking about the Huns again, as thats what people always bring up...

Lol Evon you score 1% Syberian or East Asian whatever
I do not know why you make such a big fuss about it ( at least that is my understanding over time )

evon
07-16-2012, 07:43 PM
Lol Evon you score 1% Syberian or East Asian whatever
I do not know why you make such a big fuss about it ( at least that is my understanding over time )

I am joking, and i dont have Siberian ancestry, i have East Asian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytjEEgQ_hTM) ancestry ;)

Pallantides
07-16-2012, 08:09 PM
Evon dress up as a Chinese warrior and do his warrior-dance every morning in the park.
http://img250.echo.cx/img250/5290/qingarmor17wr.jpg

evon
07-16-2012, 08:12 PM
Evon dress up as a Chinese warrior and do his warrior-dance every morning in the park.
http://img250.echo.cx/img250/5290/qingarmor17wr.jpg

Nah, thats so last years trend, this year we are into Tai chi. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BAxq053G7M).i actually know tai chi, but i am just too impatient for it, thus i left it at a novice level...

Prince Carlo
07-19-2012, 10:13 AM
The PCA plot posted by Askra is so fuckin' old and wrong that I am crying. Actually N.Italians are considerably closer to S.Italians than to Sardinians. N.Italians are also equidistant from Swedes and Sardinians. You can see it on Dodecad Oracle K12b V3.

Pallantides
08-25-2012, 02:19 PM
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/genetic-origins-and-structure-of.html


Europeans are mainly the descendants of Neolithic farmers from the Near East and native European Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, with the Mesolithic component peaking in Northeastern Europe. Moreover, all Europeans have prehistoric East Asian admixture, but Northern Europeans have more of it than Southern Europeans. However, Southern Europeans have recent Sub-Saharan African ancestry that Northern Europeans lack.