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CelticViking
07-22-2012, 08:02 PM
How did the Romans grow grapes in northern England? Perhaps because it was warmer than we thought.

A study suggests the Britain of 2,000 years ago experienced a lengthy period of hotter summers than today.
German researchers used data from tree rings – a key indicator of past climate – to claim the world has been on a ‘long-term cooling trend’ for two millennia until the global warming of the twentieth century.

This cooling was punctuated by a couple of warm spells.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2171973/Tree-ring-study-proves-climate-WARMER-Roman-Medieval-times-modern-industrial-age.html#ixzz20MYka5fG

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The Lawspeaker
07-22-2012, 09:02 PM
Bye bye global warming scam.

Dacul
07-22-2012, 09:08 PM
Well we got again in south Romania 38+ degrees Celsius this year...When this cooling of climate is coming since I am eagerly waiting for it.
Romanians,most of them, are not supporting this heat,I have sleeping problems cause of it and most romanians have same.I am sleeping 10-12 hours per night during winter and colder time of spring and autumn.
Record temperature for Bucharest was in 2007,about 41 degrees Celsius or so.
So how come now climate is cooler since in Bucharest there were not such high temperatures?

Graham
07-22-2012, 09:10 PM
We all knew that. Orkney shows evidence of a once warmer climate to live in.

Graham
07-22-2012, 09:13 PM
Bye bye global warming scam.

It's only a scam to say it was all man made.. You get both natural global warming & man made.

We shouldnt worry as much about sea levels & melting ice with Archimedes' Principle too.

Renewables are much more pleasant though.

evon
07-22-2012, 09:13 PM
We know that during the 12-1300's it became colder, so i would expect around 700-1000's to have been the peak in European warmth, which explains the colonization of Norse people, especially on Greenland, which they abandoned due to colder climate and hence failed crops in the 1200's.

Albion
07-22-2012, 10:25 PM
How did the Romans grow grapes in northern England? Perhaps because it was warmer than we thought.

A study suggests the Britain of 2,000 years ago experienced a lengthy period of hotter summers than today.
German researchers used data from tree rings – a key indicator of past climate – to claim the world has been on a ‘long-term cooling trend’ for two millennia until the global warming of the twentieth century.

This cooling was punctuated by a couple of warm spells.

Yes, this is true but it has long been understood. People seem to think of it as novel to have grapes growing in England but it isn't so unusual once you understand the history.

A good climate history website (http://booty.org.uk/booty.weather/climate/wxevents.htm)

Warm and cold periods happen more regularly than modern environmentalists like to admit (most probably don't even know).
There's also been much colder periods such as the Little Ice Age. Grapes were grown in England from the Roman period and possibly before but weren't as common in the dark ages until the Normans revived viticulture here. Then throughout the middle ages we had quite a few vineyards, many supplying churches with cheap communion wine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_wine) whilst the rich imported better stuff from Bordeaux, Madeira and Burgundy. The trade connections with Madeira are particularly old because of that whilst the English fought particularly hard to hold onto Bordeaux.

Then the Little Ice Age came along and made grape growing a lot harder in England which was already at the margins of wine production. The grape-growing area was reduced mainly to Kent and in the end it was French competition and Phylloxera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylloxera) that finished it off in the 19th century.

But Europe recovered from the Little Ice Age and a solution to Phylloxera was found (grafting onto resistant rootstocks of other grape species).
Viticulture finally returned to England in the 1930s with privately-funded research stations and pioneer vineyards. All the old English grape varieties have been lost except one (Wrotham Pinot, a sport of Pinot Noir found growing in Kent - it is over 200 years old and cold-adapted) and today the varieties used are hardier French (particularly Alsatian) and German varieties as well as hybrids.



There are also some weird facts in viticulture too:


The rootstocks used in viticulture today are from the grape species that originally brought the devastating Phylloxera to Europe. These American species have evolved alongside it whereas the European ones haven't and haven't had long to adapt so far. Phylloxera kills vines by killing their roots but the disease is largely absent from England (apart from one contained case) and Chile. It is important to note that the European vines will not adapt to it because cultivated varieties are all clones. Any wild grape vines in the woods aren't very likely to replace the current varieties and grafting with their rootstocks would likely achieve the same effect as grafting with the American rootstocks so would be pointless.
During the Great French Wine Blight many of the European varieties went extinct in Europe but were found again - growing in Chile. Their vineyards are free from the disease and it is from there that many European varieties were recovered.
Champagne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne) was partially invented by an Englishman but only wine from the Champagne region of France are allowed to use that name - everyone else has to call theirs 'sparkling wine'. The process was invented in England and became very popular in the Champagne region and so France acted early to protect the name in international law.
Unlike in France though where wine was drunk by aristocrats and peasants alike, in England it seems that other types of beverage such as cider and perry were much more common amongst the poor. Perhaps because apples are hardier and less demanding than grapes.
Perry (Pear Cider) making could have been introduced by the Romans (wild pears in Southern England themselves are descendants of ones imported by farmers in the Neolithic).
Cider making likely began in North West Spain (Asturias, Galicia, Cantabria, Basque Country) and spread to NW France (particularly Normandy and Brittany) and then was introduced to England and Wales with the Normans. Certainly these regions are much more noted for their cider and perry than their wines today.





Southern England has quite a decent climate for viticulture. Grape vines often bring out their best flavours at their limits because the grapes ripen slower. Much of Southern England has similar geology to the Champagne region.
The hybrid and American species do well here too but they're not as good for wine but are much hardier than European varieties and more resistant to disease. Hardier strains are being developed all the time and viticulture is creeping north - even the Danes have a few vineyards.
An old grape vine can be seen at Hampton Court called the 'great vine' - it was planted in the 1700s and is a Black Hamburg.

England produces quite a few very good wines (Denbies win quite a few awards) but most vineyards are small and produce mediocre-quality wine. I doubt we'll ever match France unless our climate warms drastically, but I think we could produce a lot of cheaper wines for the domestic market and sell surplus grapes to supermarkets. It would help if there was favourable tax regimes for British producers, but at the moment they pay the same taxes as foreign producers.
At the moment England is amongst the greatest importers of wine in the world despite us not drinking quite as much as our continental neighbours. I think there's a good market for English wine here alongside cider and perry.

Pretan
07-22-2012, 10:39 PM
It's only a scam to say it was all man made.. You get both natural global warming & man made.

We shouldnt worry as much about sea levels & melting ice with Archimedes' Principle too.

Renewables are much more pleasant though.

Off-shore wind turbines have ruined the sight of the Lincolnshire Coast. Half of the time they don't even move due to the wind being too strong:rolleyes2:.

Give me Nuclear Power anyday, its far cheaper, far more reliable, doesn't increase the bill for the consumer as much and doesn't need subsidising to make it usable.

Graham
07-22-2012, 10:45 PM
Off-shore wind turbines have ruined the sight of the Lincolnshire Coast. Half of the time they don't even move due to the wind being too strong:rolleyes2:.

Give me Nuclear Power anyday, its far cheaper, far more reliable, doesn't increase the bill for the consumer as much and doesn't need subsidising to make it usable.

It's gonna coast billions to install those new nuclear facilties in England & Wales.

If you want those plants, fair play. Stick them in Lincolnshire and I'll have my turbines in West Lothian.

Apina
07-22-2012, 10:50 PM
Always knew this global-warming crap was bs :)

Apina
07-22-2012, 10:52 PM
I seriously people will look back in 1000 years, and laugh at 'global-warming' like we do about 'the world is flat'.

Albion
07-22-2012, 11:00 PM
Sorry to turn this into a bit of a viticulture thread, I just find the cultivation side of it fascinating. I'm not a oenophile yet though so that's okay. ;)


The Judgment of Paris in 1976 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_(wine)) and subsequent wine competitions helped winemakers throughout the New World realize that they could make wines equal to the very best produced anywhere in the world as well educating some markets about the potential of wine outside Europe. This process was much easier in some countries like England, with little indigenous production and a centuries-old tradition of importing wine from around the world, than it was in other countries. Further competitions brought to international attention other great wines from around the world, some of which like Penfolds Grange had already been made for decades.

I think we should classify the new grape-growing regions of Europe and the regions where it has been completely revived from scratch (such as England) with the New World producers.
In England the viticulture is a mixture of the more traditional French techniques alongside the more modern New World ones.
Another difference between the old wine regions and these newer ones are the varieties - they're associated with certain regions in the old wine growing areas but the ones in the new wine growing areas tend to be international varieties.
And finally there's also a sharp divide between New and Old worlds regarding hybrid and North American grape species being used in wine. The French created many of the hybrids but are greatly against anything with North American genes being used in viticulture in Europe. In England it is quite the opposite to most of Europe though, here hybrids are often used alongside the European vines, particularly Seyval Blanc which has earned the nickname of "Save all" for its reliability. English producers like England in general tend to be between Old and New Worlds on this. The pioneer viticulture movements in the Netherlands and Denmark tend to follow the English example whilst Russia has been expanding its area further northwards with winter-hardy hybrids (it has perfect summer temperatures but its winters are too cold for most European varieties north of the Black Sea and Azov).

So I think the EU rules on viticulture need to be reformed to accommodate these differences. Three divisions for the continent - Western, Eastern and Northern. Western would embrace the traditional wine-producing areas in France, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Germany whilst Eastern would serve Eastern Europe which has its different varieties, techniques and history from the west. And finally the northern would be largely a zone of revival and of pushing the limits, with hardier strains and more acceptance New World ideas.
Basically all three sectors would have different regulations suited to their context.

Pretan
07-22-2012, 11:10 PM
It's gonna coast billions to install those new nuclear facilties in England & Wales.

If you want those plants, fair play. Stick them in Lincolnshire and I'll have my turbines in West Lothian.

To run Scotland completely on those Glorified Windmills, you would need to cover most the Highlands in them.

The average 120m high Wind turbine produces 2 MW, Intermittent Power (Thats provided the weather is favourable)
Compare that with the most upto date AP1000 Nuclear Power Reactor which produces 1154MW.(Consistently)

It would be more costly making and sustaining the 577 turbines.(If the country only had them it would get blackouts during anticyclonic weather)

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^Visual representation
When Nuclear Fusion is refined it will make these Fission reactors look pathetic in comparison. Its time to improve our technology not go backwards with windmills.

Albion
07-22-2012, 11:11 PM
It's gonna coast billions to install those new nuclear facilties in England & Wales.

If you want those plants, fair play. Stick them in Lincolnshire and I'll have my turbines in West Lothian.

Can you imagine trying to power England with a few wind turbines? We'd need the whole coast filled with them!
Scotland on the other hand with a smaller population and also access to a lot of hydro could perhaps do it.

The English situation mirrors France though - large population - current renewable sources aren't going to cut it. France became an exporter of electricity with nuclear and it is much cleaner (apart from accidents anyway).
We need to renew our nuclear power stations and have those powering the nation instead of a few turbines that will be obsolete in 20 years.

It will cost billions to put up wind turbines everywhere but we'd see little benefit from them. Instead we should spend the money on proper sources of energy, on nuclear or clean coal (using our own 400 year supply).
The government is currently discussing public-private partnerships to achieve this. The French and German companies which were interested aren't so sure now because France and Germany have rather anti-nuclear leaders at the moment (otherwise known as idiots).
But the Chinese are interested in showcasing their capabilities in Britain and proving to the world that they can build quality power plants within some of the tightest regulations in the world. Basically Britain would act as their shopfront to advertise to the world that they can build you a nuclear plant. I think it would be good for the both of us, we could do with courting China a bit for better access to their markets.

Damião de Góis
07-22-2012, 11:48 PM
http://blogs.mbs.edu/fishing-in-the-bay/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/2000-years-of-global-temperatures-thumb.jpg

Graham
07-22-2012, 11:49 PM
Those 10 new Nuclear stations to be built. The price to build one is going towards £7bn and rapidly rising.

Albion
07-23-2012, 12:00 AM
Those 10 new Nuclear stations to be built. The price to build one is going towards £7bn and rapidly rising.

And what is the price of blackouts?

Those plants will last for decades whereas a few wind turbines won't and will not supply us with adequate power. Public-private partnerships are probably the better option for this.

Graham
07-23-2012, 12:02 AM
We already have a large windfarm in my back yard. Happy to add more. :)
My photo...
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/irnbru293/IMG_5575.jpg

We also have Pates Hill Wind Farm, 7 turbines & £100m plans for 30 wind turbines and forest in West Lothian. 49,000 homes

Whitelee Wind Farm 140 Siemens wind turbines 124,000 homes. Up the road. :)

The Lawspeaker
07-23-2012, 12:03 AM
And what is the price of blackouts?

Those plants will last for decades whereas a few wind turbines won't and will not supply us with adequate power. Public-private partnerships are probably the better option for this.

I am not sure: private enterprise can provide some funds when it comes to road construction but they should always be kept out a nuclear reactor because they would cut costs on the safety right away.

Graham
07-23-2012, 12:03 AM
And what is the price of blackouts?

Those plants will last for decades whereas a few wind turbines won't and will not supply us with adequate power. Public-private partnerships are probably the better option for this.

I don't mind what England does. Different needs for different countries. We have lots more wind and space with less population.

Pretan
07-23-2012, 12:08 AM
We already have a large windfarm in my back yard. Happy to add more. :)
My photo...
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/irnbru293/IMG_5575.jpg

We also have Pates Hill Wind Farm, 7 turbines & £100m plans for 30 wind turbines and forest in West Lothian. 49,000 homes

Whitelee Wind Farm 140 Siemens wind turbines 124,000 homes. Up the road. :)

Don't let birds go near them.
jwVz5hdAMGU

Albion
07-23-2012, 12:09 AM
I am not sure: private enterprise can provide some funds when it comes to road construction but they should always be kept out a nuclear reactor because they would cut costs on the safety right away.

Well the UK has some of the strictest regulations in the world, you should see the health and safety laws here...
We're not just going to sit back and allow them to build any old crap, it will be tightly monitored.


I don't mind what England does. Different needs for different countries. We have lots more wind and space with less population.

Scotland, Ireland and Wales could get by on renewables if they really tried, but England couldn't unless someone invents something. Most nuclear power stations will likely be in England and Wales for that reason.

SilverKnight
07-23-2012, 12:12 AM
So much for Al Gore fanaticism

The Lawspeaker
07-23-2012, 12:16 AM
Speaking about growing wine up north in England. How about in the tropics (http://www.asiadreams.com/edisi/march/asia-style/hatten-wines.html) ?

http://www.asiadreams.com/assets/images/magazine/march-edition/asia-style/hatten-wines/image1.jpg

http://www.exotissimo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Vineyard-in-Khao-Yai-Thailand1.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2336/1602295494_382708a649_z.jpg?zz=1

http://static4.depositphotos.com/1005518/300/i/950/depositphotos_3000193-Tropical-Vineyard.jpg

Yes: in Indonesia, Vietnam, India, Thailand, Tanzania and in more places in the tropics it seems to be possible as well.

Albion
07-23-2012, 12:24 AM
Speaking about growing wine up north in England. How about in the tropics (http://www.asiadreams.com/edisi/march/asia-style/hatten-wines.html) ?

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Yes: in Indonesia, Thailand, Tanzania and in more places in the tropics it seems to be possible as well.

Yes, I suppose instead of cold the drawbacks would be too mild winters and humidity. They need some cold dormancy in winter and excessive humidity and wet weather can lead to disease (a risk in parts of England and France).
In some highland areas it is very possible though, these areas would have the right climate.

Also there are Vitis varieties native to East Asia. So far most hybrids are with North American species for cold hardiness, but hybrids with Asian species for tropical adaptations would probably be possible.
I think the market would be smaller though - Muslims don't really drink alcohol whilst East Asians can't handle it and it goes against Buddhist rules. It could be a good export though.

Crops can grow in a wide variety of habitats if we breed them for adaptations to varying conditions. Some species such as apples seem to do this themselves with little human intervention - hardy seedlings survive whilst the less well adapted ones perish (and they basically evolve with each seedling).

SilverKnight
07-23-2012, 12:26 AM
Speaking about growing wine up north in England. How about in the tropics (http://www.asiadreams.com/edisi/march/asia-style/hatten-wines.html) ?


Yes: in Indonesia, Vietnam, India, Thailand, Tanzania and in more places in the tropics it seems to be possible as well.

Not just grapes, but also temperate to colder climate fruits like Strawberries, Apples, cranberries and such. In DR up in higher elevation towns there are many growers with strawberries and grapes due to the colder climate.

I doubt it could be possible in lower elevations near the coast or wetlands where is very humid.

Albion
07-23-2012, 12:41 AM
I'd like to see cold-hardy varieties of melons and oranges developed so that we could grow them here in England outside. :D
The victorians were very good at forcing all kinds of tropical plants in greenhouses and cold frames. They grew melons, pineapples, oranges and even bananas (real ones, not just ornamentals).

Sadly I don't think oranges have much more scope for adaptability in them. The hardiest varieties come from Japan and Spain, but since they still haven't ventured further north as outdoor plants in all this time I don't think it will ever happen. They're a tropical plant, I suppose putting them in climate with snow in winter is a bit too much.

Melons too are a warm climate plant but I think there is some room for hardiness. Their distant relative the Pumpkin seems hardy enough anyway.

At the moment these two species are grown in greenhouses, cold frames and indoors in England. I'd love it if they could be grown outside one day though, at least in summer and then protected in winter.

The victorians already developed hardy peach varieties for us, I think we should continue their work with other plants (peaches typically need hotter summers than ours to ripen, but our varieties do better here).

SilverKnight
07-23-2012, 12:47 AM
I'd like to see cold-hardy varieties of melons and oranges developed so that we could grow them here in England outside. :D
The victorians were very good at forcing all kinds of tropical plants in greenhouses and cold frames. They grew melons, pineapples, oranges and even bananas (real ones, not just ornamentals).

Sadly I don't think oranges have much more scope for adaptability in them. The hardiest varieties come from Japan and Spain, but since they still haven't ventured further north as outdoor plants in all this time I don't think it will ever happen. They're a tropical plant, I suppose putting them in climate with snow in winter is a bit too much.

Melons too are a warm climate plant but I think there is some room for hardiness. Their distant relative the Pumpkin seems hardy enough anyway.

At the moment these two species are grown in greenhouses, cold frames and indoors in England. I'd love it if they could be grown outside one day though, at least in summer and then protected in winter.

The victorians already developed hardy peach varieties for us, I think we should continue their work with other plants (peaches typically need hotter summers than ours to ripen, but our varieties do better here).


I can imagine how hard is for a plant such as oranges, melons to adapt to cold climates over generations. Is not just the harsh cold, also, lower levels of sun rays needed for oranges to develop seems to be the problem as well, obviously.

Damião de Góis
07-23-2012, 01:09 AM
I seriously people will look back in 1000 years, and laugh at 'global-warming' like we do about 'the world is flat'.

The temperatures are rising, there's no doubt about that. However it's nothing unprecedented and Al Gore didn't have to make that sensasionalistic video.

http://blogs.mbs.edu/fishing-in-the-bay/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/2000-years-of-global-temperatures-thumb.jpg

Albion
07-23-2012, 01:10 AM
I can imagine how hard is for a plant such as oranges, melons to adapt to cold climates over generations. Is not just the harsh cold, also, lower levels of sun rays needed for oranges to develop seems to be the problem as well, obviously.

Hard, yes. But not impossible. Humans cultivating plants and selecting for hardiness is basically speeding survival of the fittest along and accelerating the evolution of that species.
Many crops are so far removed from the wild ancestors that they are deemed separate species now.

The sun's rays aren't as strong further north but that is partially compensated for by the much longer days in summer. The sun rises at around 5 this time of year and sets around half 9 - that's 16 and a half hours of daylight compared to places at the tropics which have more like 13 most of the year. I don't think it is too much to adapt to. One thing to bear in mind is photoperiodism, but species related to melons don't seem to be affected by day length.
I noticed it when some grass seed wouldn"t germinate in that warm spring we had. It was ryegrass and I noticed it started growing as the days got long despite the weather getting colder. Apparently in Iceland their grass does rather well in summer with their very long hours of light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoperiodism

Melons are often grown as an annual plant in greenhouses here. I think breeding them to do well outside would be a good thing, but I highly doubt we'd ever get winter hardiness out of them.
Orange trees go outside in good weather but in a conservatory or greenhouse for 2/3 of the year I'd say. Someone needs to go to Japan and hunt down the hardiest varieties available and then breed them further.

Albion
07-23-2012, 01:19 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Hardy_Citrus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satsuma_(fruit)

SilverKnight
07-24-2012, 04:40 AM
Lol at the tag bellow about carbon footprint , who ever wrote it deserves a round of applause. xD