The Saami (aka Lapps)

[Hweinlant]

There is a bit strange view about Saami in anthro community, I noticed that especially @ SNPA plates. Here's some very old (1880's) anthroplates of Saami people from Norway.

http://i35.tinypic.com/sb4z8i.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/qoej51.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/2n1vn8p.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/4vofib.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/o0yuqq.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/1621d1d.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/307m78g.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/2vnhxkx.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/28rkrcy.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/262wiuf.jpg

[Ariets]

Awesome. Hweinlant, why don't you post it at AF foras?

[Lenny]

These are really fascinating.

We know that there are no pure-Lappids anymore in Lappland (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13313). But, these photos are proof that those of more-or-less pure-Lappid ancestry were a minority there even 150 years ago already. (The Lapps photographed here were born in the mid-1800s.)

It is clear that the Lapp genepool was already overwhelmed by Nordic and Cromagnon stock by the mid-1800s. It came from Norwegians, Swedes, or Finns who ventured north as traders, settlers, missionaries and the like, generation after generation, occasionally intermingling. Their numbers were so tiny that it didn't take very many mixed-births over time to do this.

I thought a lot of the infusion of Nordid/CM blood came later (after 1900), and that for people born c.1850 we would've seen many pure-Lappids, but I was wrong.

The question is, when was the "Rubicon" crossed, such that Lappid racial viability in Lappland was no longer possible? Having limited knowledge of this, I can only speculate. 1600 AD? 1700 AD? 1800? By 1850 it was already inviable, so it seems.

[Pallantides]

What is a pure Sámi...are you suggesting the more "mongoloid" ones are pure and the others are not?


Anyway I have more pictures from Bonapartes expidition in my thread:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126

The Sámi are very much still a genetic distinctive group.

[Lenny]

What is a pure Sámi...are you suggesting the more "mongoloid" ones are pure and the others are not?I think that is obvious. The original Saami/Lapps were Lappid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#LAPPID), whereas so much mingling with Scandinavians has made that type disappear in its pure form.

The proof of this is that the most isolated group of Lapps, that held onto nomadism and chasing reindeer herds into the 20th century, were by far the darkest-haired, darkest-eyed, and shortest of all groups of Lapps. They absorbed much less Scandinavian blood due to their isolation.

Some excerpts from The Lapps (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX2.htm) (A chapter from 'The Races of Europe')


The selected "pure" groups, Bryn's Reindeer Lapps, and some of
Geyer's mountain and forest Lapps from Sweden, have seventy
per cent or over of this dark hair, while the fairest Lapps, with a
majority of brown and blond shades, are found in Finland and in
the Kola Peninsula.

Pure dark eyes are found among one-third of Reindeer Lapps,
but among as few as eight per cent in the total of Lapps from Norway.

The beard [on the Lapp man] -- except where much Nordic blood
is apparent -- is very scanty, consisting of a few widely separated
hairs. The body hair again is largely deficient, for there is seldom
any on the chest or abdomen

The cephalic index (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#CEPHALIC%20INDEX%20%28C.I.%29) means [for Lapps] range from 80 to 88; and a
large list of series shows no change during the last century. There
are, however, regional differences; the center of extreme round
headedness lies among the inland groups in northern Norway [the
Reindeer Lapps], while the Swedish, Finnish, and Kola Peninsula
Lapps become progressively narrower headed. The mean for the
purest Reindeer Lapps of Norway is 87; for the easternmost Lapps,
80 to 83.

Browridges [on Lapps], as a rule, are absent

All of these series show that the Lapps are very mixed, and
that they contain not only Nordic blood, derived from Norwegian
contact, intense during the last four centuries, but also a blond
brachycephalic element which presumably comes from their even
commoner mixture with the Kvaens, the northernmost of Finns.

[Pallantides]

The Sámi can not be tied to one specific phenotype, besides you can also find people that fit the "Lappid" phenotype in Southern Norway that don't have any genetic connection to the Sámi people.

Norwegian
http://images.fashionmodeldirectory.com/model/000000005072-mari_midtstigen-fullsize.jpg
http://adminmen.successmodels.com/galeries/polaroids/IX_12.jpg
http://g.api.no/obscura/www.ba.no/708x708r/02987/1262764178000_Kristoffer_Joner_1_2987696708x708r.j pg

Sámi
http://fotball.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00081/Morten_Gamst_Pederse_81873a.jpg

Just becuase their phenotypes are more "Lappid" don't make them more Sámi neither genetically or culturally.

[Pallantides]

Mari Midtstigen, Norwegian woman from Oppland, dressed up in a nice bunad from Lom and everything.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3231/marik.jpg

Ánde Somby, Sámi man from Finnmark, dressed in a traditional Gákti.
http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/252/148786.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Sámi can not be tied to one specific phenotype, besides you can also find people that fit the "Lappid" phenotype in Southern Norway that don't have any genetic connection to the Sámi people.

Norwegian




Sámi


Just becuase their phenotypes are more "Lappid" don't make them more Sámi neither genetically or culturally.

Your logic is idiotic. The ones with Lappid phenotypes obviously have Lappid ancestry otherwise they'd have a different phenotype that is more Norwegian.

[Pallantides]

Your logic is idiotic. The ones with Lappid phenotypes obviously have Lappid ancestry otherwise they'd have a different phenotype that is more Norwegian.

Yeah because there have been many Sami people in areas like Rogaland...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Norway_Counties_Rogaland_Position.svg/256px-Norway_Counties_Rogaland_Position.svg.png

Lol and what is a more Norwegian phenotype?
tieing a specific phenotype to a single population is idiotic, how do we even know if the original Sámi were "Lappid".

[poiuytrewq0987]

Yeah because there have been many Sami people in areas like Rogaland...


Lol and what is a more Norwegian phenotype?

"A more Norwegian phenotype" clearly means a person who has a phenotype that is predominantly European. The two pictures who are supposedly 100% Norwegian have mongoloid phenotypes. Such phenotypes don't just appear from nowhere. They have to have an influence from someone and in this case, the people who you posted with obviously mongoloid phenotypes are most likely to have Lappoid ancestry. It's called basic logic.

[Pallantides]

Why is this infulence from the Sami though?
Since I very much doubt any of them have Sami ancestry and their phenotypes look 'Norwegian' enough to me, besides there is a minor Uralic infulence in Norwegians and Y-DNA haplogroup Q is also found in Norwegians wich is absent in the Sami populations, I think that is the answer for their looks not any recent Sami ancestry.




tieing a specific phenotype to a single population is idiotic, how do we even know if the original Sámi were "Lappid".

You can find many so called "Lappids" in the general south Norwegian population.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12320
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13574
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12232
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12322
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12322

[SteelRose]

Y-DNA haplogroup Q is also found in Norwegians wich is absent in the Sami populations

Norway has only a minuscule trace amount of y-haplogroup Q, just as many other european countries do:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[hajduk]

They are a seperate ethnic group and should not mix with nordics or any other white people.
Sami people still have prominent asiatic features but many of them are mixed with scandinavians

[The Ripper]

They are a seperate ethnic group and should not mix with nordics or any other white people.
Sami people still have prominent asiatic features but many of them are mixed with scandinavians

The Sámi are European, you fool. They are completely native here in the north, and have always been. Mixing is irrelevant.

[Pallantides]

I don't consider Sámi less European than other Nordic people.
On BGA plots the Sámi(I believe they were sampled 100 Russian Kola Sámi) are as distant from other Europeans as Sardinians and Basques are, albeit in different directions, Sami land north east, Sardinians south and Basques south west of the European cluster, they have more Uralic infulence than other North Europeans wich I believe is the reason for their pull twoards the east.



There are also regional differences in the populations, many of the Sámi in Norway are very different from the ones found in Russia and even Finland, so it would be intresting to see where for example a South Sámi would land on such a genetic test.

South Sámi
http://www.nrk.no/contentfile/file/1.6473996!f34CropList/img174x232.jpg
http://www.nrk.no/contentfile/file/1.6021249!img6021113.jpg
http://www.samiskhs.no/aimages/JohanStromgren1__1210183877_250x334.jpg
http://www.samediggi.no/kunde/bilder/Medium_jarle_jonassen.jpg
http://www.samiskhs.no/aimages/Lajla_Brandsfjell_1262599826.PNG

[hajduk]

The Sámi are European, you fool. They are completely native here in the north, and have always been. Mixing is irrelevant.

Really? Sami are native but the population is not that huge. We don't need to go into a long debate on whether they are white or not.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Lapland_Mother_NGM-v31-p556.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Saami_Family_1900.jpg
http://www.kaptillkap.se/bilder/Same%20i%20Norge.jpg
http://www.biallawons.net/images/sam5.jpg

[Pallantides]

We don't need to go into a long debate on whether they are white or not.


No we don't. :rolleyes2:
http://www.regjeringen.no/Upload/AID/nyhetsbilder/2007/sami_veiviser_mst_150X200.jpg
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7388/img5093v.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4396/sofiajannok225.jpg
http://www.jus.uit.no/ansatte/somby/jpg/vill3b.jpg
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3748/78424435.jpg
http://www.mortenssalong.no/storage/editor_files/1_gamst_pedersen-2.jpg
http://samediggi.no/kunde/bilder/Medium_Store,%20Knut.jpg
http://www.samediggi.no/kunde/bilder/Medium_Keskitalo,%20Aili.jpg
http://www.samediggi.no/kunde/bilder/Medium_laila-susanne-vars_naert.jpg
http://samediggi.no/kunde/bilder/Medium_Eliassen,%20Olaf.jpg
http://www.samediggi.no/kunde/bilder/Medium_marie_therese_nordsletta_aslaksen.jpg
http://www.sametinget.se/images/ledamoter/josefinaskerk_100.jpg
http://www.sametinget.se/images/ledamoter/sylviasimma2_100.jpg
http://www.sametinget.se/images/ledamoter/helenamoren_100.jpg
http://www.freehawaiistickers.com/photos/Free%20Hawai%60i%20Saami.jpg
http://www.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2008/11/30/1228074272459_737.jpg
http://www.kulturnett.no/visbilde?id=T12282028&type=temabilde
http://www.samiskhs.no/aimages/May_Synnoeve_Trosten_1262599000.PNG
http://www.samiskhs.no/aimages/sagka_1247487451_250x375.jpg

[The Ripper]

Really? Sami are native but the population is not that huge. We don't need to go into a long debate on whether they are white or not.


That would only raise the level of retardation.

I'm not white, even if other people might find it convenient to define me as one.

[Lenny]

Just becuase their phenotypes are more "Lappid" don't make them more Sámi neither genetically or culturally.
Of course they are not culturally Saami, but that is their (partial) racial origin. In this guy (http://adminmen.successmodels.com/galeries/polaroids/IX_12.jpg)'s case, he appears more Lappoid than anything else, for sure. He's a rare one, like the complete outlier that "Bjork" is to Iceland.

A certain small percentage of Norwegians (under 5%) are of "East Baltid" type, which is a term referring to Cromagnid types that show mixture with Lappid. In Norway's case, this is logically the result of geneflow from the original-Lapps, an unknown amount of time ago. There is no other scenario that makes sense.


You can find many so called "Lappids" in the general south Norwegian population.
Migration would explain individuals being found all around. Are you trying to argue that the rate of Lappoid blood south of Oslo is the same as what it is north of Narvik? I don't think any serious person can do that.


Is someone with minor Lappoid influence "non-European"? No.
Are the Lapps racially-European? Now they are, yes. The tremendous amount of geneflow over the past 400 years has changed the dominant racial type among speakers of the Saami language living in Lappland. It has changed from the original [Lappid] to [A slightly more lappicized cross-section of Norway's entire racial stock].



The Sámi are European, you fool. They are completely native here in the north, and have always been. Mixing is irrelevant.
According to pre-1945 histories, they entered Lappland in Northern Scandinavia 2,000 years ago, though they were in Europe longer than that.

More recently, it has been P.C. to claim they were in all parts of Scandinavia long before Europids. It gives Scandinavians the same phony guilt-narrative that whites in the USA enjoy. [i.e., The Nordid/CroMagnid Germanics came into Scandinavia and wiped out the idyllic and saintly Lapps, pushing them far north. Scandinavian history is thus opened with a Genocide. "Our very own Auschwitz".]

[Pallantides]

Of course they are not culturally Saami, but that is their (partial) racial origin. In this guy (http://adminmen.successmodels.com/galeries/polaroids/IX_12.jpg)'s case, he appears more Lappoid than anything else, for sure. He's a rare one, like the complete outlier that "Bjork" is to Iceland.

Even if his phenotype is "Lappoid", I somehow doubt Karl Henriksen would differ greatly from other Norwegians if he took a genetic test.



A certain small percentage of Norwegians (under 5%) are of "East Baltid" type

Now how did you come to that conclusion?
It's probably more, besides there is as much varity of phenotypes among Norwegians as in other western or central European populations.





According to pre-1945 histories, they entered Lappland in Northern Scandinavia 2,000 years ago, though they were in Europe longer than that.

More recently, it has been P.C. to claim they were in all parts of Scandinavia long before Europids. It gives Scandinavians the same phony guilt-narrative that whites in the USA enjoy. [i.e., The Nordid/CroMagnid Germanics came into Scandinavia and wiped out the idyllic and saintly Lapps, pushing them far north. Scandinavian history is thus opened with a Genocide. "Our very own Auschwitz".]

There have been Saami further south but I doubt they were wiped out, more likely they were pushed north or assimilated into the Norwegian population.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Saami who look European obviously have been Norwegianized.

[Pallantides]

The Saami who look European obviously have been Norwegianized.

You get very butt hurt when people troll Slavs and call them mongoloids, but you have no problem trolling other European ethnic groups yourself. :rolleyes2:

[poiuytrewq0987]

You get very butt hurt when people troll Slavs and call them mongoloids, but you have no problem trolling other European ethnic groups yourself. :rolleyes2:

I'd love to do a 23andme test on a Saami person. I'm sure results will be interesting. Don't you think so?

[Pallantides]

I share with a Sami on 23andMe who is my 5t cousin, he is very European looking, yet he is in a genetic group of his own.
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4496/sami3.jpg

His nick is Ravdne
his father is Sami and his mother is Norwegian/Finnish(Kven?)

[poiuytrewq0987]

I share with a Sami on 23andMe who is very European looking, stand I'm next to a Norwegian and one wouldn't be able to tell the difference, yet he is in a genetic group of his own.
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4496/sami3.jpg

The Saami people are certainly unique, not a lot of their original genetic background is well-known because they have been mixing with Norwegians for centuries. This is a fact, don't deny it.

[Pallantides]

The Saami people are certainly unique, not a lot of their original genetic background is well-known because they have been mixing with Norwegians for centuries. This is a fact, don't deny it.

Then you I hope you accept that Norwegians and other Scandinavians also have some Sami ancestry, it has definitly gone both ways.

Because to my knowledge it was more common for Norse men to take Sami wives than for Sami men to take Nordic wives, so it might be more Sami blood in Norwegians than Norse in the Sami or atleast an equal amount.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Then you I hope you accept that Norwegians and other Scandinavians also have some Sami ancestry, it has definitly gone both ways.

Of course I do. :) Who can ignore the power of pussy?

[poiuytrewq0987]

I share with a Sami on 23andMe who is my 5t cousin, he is very European looking, yet he is in a genetic group of his own.
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4496/sami3.jpg

His nick is Ravdne
his father is Sami and his mother is Norwegian/Finnish(Kven?)

I certainly thought that to be interesting. He is probably in his own genetic group because not enough Saamis have been tested? Meaning if enough Saamis were tested, we'd be able to find what genetic group they'd belong in and give them a classification of their own (if they end up to be unique from Norwegians).

[Pallantides]

On the Genome-Wide Comparison he is closest to Finns, some Russians and a Latvian/Khanty person, but I'm his closest 'western' match on my sharing list.

[poiuytrewq0987]

On the Genome-Wide Comparison he is closest to Finns, some Russians and a Latvian/Khanty person, but I'm his closest 'western' match on my sharing list.

You said he had a Saami father, didn't he? If so then what is his YDNA?

[Pallantides]

You said he had a Saami father, didn't he? If so then what is his YDNA?

His YDNA is I1* and his mtDNA is V(so I suspect his Norwegian/Finnsh mother might have some Saami ancestry aswell.)

[Pallantides]

http://www.pearsall-family.org/PearsallDNASurnameProjectResults12_files/image015.jpg
*the one north that border of Norway, Finland and Russia is Saami.

[poiuytrewq0987]

His YDNA is I1* and his mtDNA is V(so I suspect his Norwegian/Finnsh mother might have some Saami ancestry aswell.)

Is the I YDNA indigenous to the Saami or is it foreign to them? There are two possible scenarios, either the Norwegians (and other Scandinavians) mixed with Saamis and made the I YDNA a normality among them. The other is the I YDNA a common haplogroup for the Saami ever since the beginning of time. The reason I ask because the I YDNA is rather common (specifically I1a) among Nordics and very rare outside Scandinavia. The Saami you showed me do have Norwegian ancestors so... is there even any Saami of unmixed ancestry left?

I think the best way to go with this is to find a Saami with a YDNA haplogroup that is uncommon among Norwegians. That could give us an hint of what haplogroup the original Saamis had. If none can be found then it's plausible that the Saami aren't any different from other Scandinavians but I find this to be highly improbable.

[Pallantides]

Y-DNA Haplogroup distribution among the Saami compared with other North European populations
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/897/ydnahaplogroups.jpg
*Norwegian Saami were not sampled on this one but the map above gives a good indication of the Y Haplogroup distribution among them.


the only unique haplogroup among Saami I can think of his mtDNA U5's subclade U5b1b1.

[Smeagol]

They mostly look like other Scandinavians.