Arvanite members

[Ushtari]

How many Arvanite members do we have? i know Akisgreece is arvanite, but i heard "Kollaps" is arvanite aswell?



Arvanites are Albanians who settled Greece from 14th century and forward, for those who didnt know.

[kollaps]

No I am not an Arvanitis. I wrote in the other thread that Arvanites are a distinguished group among the Greeks, they are proud people, keep their traditions and heritage. I also said that unlike other small ethnic groups, they haven't suffered discrimination and they don't keep it a secret what their ancestry is. They mostly settled in Attica (way before Athens was the city it is today), Euboea, Argolis, some islands of the Saronikos and Cyclades, and in some other places. They populated whole villages which are still called "arvanitika", and actually "Arvanitis" is a common surname here. The Philhellene someone mentioned in the other thread (as "proof" that there were no "real Greeks" at the time of the revolution blah-blah) had probably visited one of those villages.

[El Gre]

Euboea

Just to be a bit more specific, the Arvanites were found only in the south of Eoboea, the northern part from Halkida upwards was Greek speakers.

And no i dont have Arvanite backround either but my great grandfather used to go down to Thebes and build houses for them. He called the women 'Barbatses' because they were a bit on the heavy side lol and that they baked good bread!

[Ushtari]

No I am not an Arvanitis. I wrote in the other thread that Arvanites are a distinguished group among the Greeks, they are proud people, keep their traditions and heritage. I also said that unlike other small ethnic groups, they haven't suffered discrimination and they don't keep it a secret what their ancestry is. They mostly settled in Attica (way before Athens was the city it is today), Euboea, Argolis, some islands of the Saronikos and Cyclades, and in some other places. They populated whole villages which are still called "arvanitika", and actually "Arvanitis" is a common surname here. The Philhellene someone mentioned in the other thread (as "proof" that there were no "real Greeks" at the time of the revolution blah-blah) had probably visited one of those villages.
Werent you the one who said that your relatives on your mother side dont speak Arvanitika or something like that? meaning that you are part-arvanite?

Given that they were forcefully assimilated, i wouldn't really say that they haven't suffered any discrimination.



And no i dont have Arvanite backround either but my great grandfather used to go down to Thebes and build houses for them. He called the women 'Barbatses' because they were a bit on the heavy side lol and that they baked good bread!
Funny given that your national hero 'Lord Byron' thought Albanian girls are more handsome than Greek ones ;)

[kollaps]

Werent you the one who said that your relatives on your mother side dont speak Arvanitika or something like that? meaning that you are part-arvanite?

Given that they were forcefully assimilated, i wouldn't really say that they haven't suffered any discrimination.

My mother is from Argolis, and while there are many Arvanitika villages in Argolis, my mother didn't come from one. I used it as an example that they had distinct settlements, which in the case of Argolis, it's still called like this, Arvanitia. Their villages are mainly on the coast, while my mother's village is on the mountain, near Arcadia.

What do you mean "forcefully" assimilated? I told you, they have freely spoken their language, unlike what happened in the 1930s with the Slavophones in northern Greek Macedonia who weren't allowed to. I stressed the word "forcefully" because assimilation of ethnolinguistic minorities is a natural process in history, and has happened everywhere, especially the Balkans. Do you have any proof that the Arvanites feel ethnically Albanians and claim they have suffered discrimination and persecution by the Greek state?


Funny given that your national hero 'Lord Byron' thought Albanian girls are more handsome than Greek ones ;)

I am not a nationalist, I don't want to engage in Apricity Balkan Wars, I simply don't care so you can't troll me :coffee: Btw Lord Byron was gay so
he probably liked Albanian boys more.

[Ushtari]

What do you mean "forcefully" assimilated? I told you, they have freely spoken their language, unlike what happened in the 1930s with the Slavophones in northern Greek Macedonia who weren't allowed to. I stressed the word "forcefully" because assimilation of ethnolinguistic minorities is a natural process in history, and has happened everywhere, especially the Balkans.
Just like Dandelion, you make it sound natural and peaceful when fact of the matter is that they are almost completely assimilated today due to aggressive Greek assimilation politics.

Many of them were also afraid of talking to strangers in their own language.


Do you have any proof that the Arvanites feel ethnically Albanians?
They identify as "Arbereshe" wich is the medieval name for Albanians, so obviously yes.

[Onur]

What do you mean "forcefully" assimilated? I told you, they have freely spoken their language, unlike what happened in the 1930s with the Slavophones in northern Greek Macedonia who weren't allowed to.

I stressed the word "forcefully" because assimilation of ethnolinguistic minorities is a natural process in history, and has happened everywhere, especially the Balkans.
The case in Greece wasn't "natural". Many different ethnic groups has been forcefully assimilated in Greece and that includes your grandparents too. Turkish language was also forbidden in Greece just as slavic and Vlach but you say that there was no pressure upon Albanians, so tell us what was the privilege of Albanians?

Imho, you are just accepting this fact for all other groups but you are probably ashamed of accepting the same for your own Arvanite kinsmen but their situation was no different in Greece. Whatever happened to slavs, vlachs and turkish christians like Gagauz and Karamanlides, happened to Albanians too. All of them has been forcefully hellenized.


Do you have any proof that the Arvanites feel ethnically Albanians and claim they have suffered discrimination and persecution by the Greek state?
Thats irrelevant. Regardless of how the Albanians (Arvanites) of Greece feels today, this doesn't change the fact that they are Albanians.

I mean, if i migrate to Germany and start to feel myself as German, this doesn't change the fact that i am a Turk and my children wont be Germans just because i feel myself as such but they can only be assimilated Turks, just as you are assimilated Albanians of Greece.

[kabeiros]

I mean, if i migrate to Germany and start to feel myself as German, this doesn't change the fact that i am a Turk and my children wont be Germans just because i feel myself as such but they can only be assimilated Turks, just as you are assimilated Albanians of Greece.

If you migrate to Germany and your offspring marry Germans for 500 years (that's 20 generations), fight side by side with Germans against Turks, speak German, feel German, act German... and despise the fact that one of their long lost ancestors was a stinky Turk, then yes you are a GERMAN. I hope I was informing.

[kollaps]

They identify as "Arbereshe" wich is the medieval name for Albanians, so obviously yes.

Yes, and the 3rd-4th generation Greeks in Australia and the US identify as Greek-Australians and Greek-Americans, but believe me, they feel mostly Americans and Australians, plain and simple. The Arbereshe came here in the medieval times. The 15th generation German-Americans identify as Germans or as Americans?


The case in Greece wasn't "natural". Many different ethnic groups has been forcefully assimilated in Greece and that includes your grandparents too.

Lol, your trolling is pathetic, you know nothing about my grandparents, yet you are convinced that they weren't ethnic Greeks and were "forcefully assimilated" and "hellenized" by the Greek state. You take for granted that every single modern Greek must have "un-Greek" ancestry. That's unscientific nationalism at its stupidest.

For what is worth, my grandparents were fully Greek as far as they could remember and trace their roots. But even if I had for example Vlach/Aromanian or Arbereshe ancestry, I wouldn't have the slightest problem in saying so, as do the Arvanites Greeks who post here, f.e. Akis. That's because these ethnolinguistic groups feel Greek by a great majority.


Imho, you are just accepting this fact for all other groups but you are probably ashamed of accepting the same for your own Arvanite kinsmen but their situation was no different in Greece.

Lol, here we go again. This is a German ethnolinguistic map of the Peloponnese. With pink colour are the Arbereshe settlements, the other are ethnic Greek, except the light blue which is for Tsakones (I don't know what they are to be honest). Mumy's village is in green circle, daddy's in red. Happy now? :)

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r631/kollaps1/Pelopones_ethnic.jpg




Turkish language was also forbidden in Greece just as slavic and Vlach but you say that there was no pressure upon Albanians, so tell us what was the privilege of Albanians?

Come on, be serious, we are talking about a period of war and near ethnic cleansing happening by all sides against all. Was Greek, Armenian or Kurdish language allowed in the first years of Kemal's rule? I am not saying if this was right or wrong (I personally am against ethnic cleansing and persecution of minorities), but these were the circumstances of that historic period.

I don't know what happened with Vlach language, I know what has happened with Arberesh language who is still spoken today in some places.

[Queen B]

Lol, here we go again. This is a German ethnolinguistic map of the Peloponnese. With pink colour are the Arbereshe settlements, the other are ethnic Greek, except the light blue which is for Tsakones (I don't know what they are to be honest). Mumy's village is in green circle, daddy's in red. Happy now? :)

My grandmother's village is purple

[Minesweeper]

Leave the guy alone, he knows who he is without your guessing. :rolleyes:

[Onur]

This is a German ethnolinguistic map of the Peloponnese. With pink colour are the Arbereshe settlements, the other are ethnic Greek, except the light blue which is for Tsakones (I don't know what they are to be honest). Mumy's village is in green circle, daddy's in red. Happy now? :)

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r631/kollaps1/Pelopones_ethnic.jpg
At least you could have look at the map before you post here. It says ethnographic map but obviously this one shows the spoken languages in Morea. We can say that this is some kind of progress report from new Greece after 60 years of hellenism in 1890. Greece`s king was a Bavarian German back then and the map is done by Germans, so we can say that the Greek speaking areas was probably exaggerated in this map.

As you can see, large parts of Greece, Korinthias, half of southern Greece and surroundings of Athens was still speaking Albanian back then. Also look carefully for the definition of purple areas, it says "Neu-Griechische" meaning new Greek language. So, this map is most likely a progression report for the level of success in teaching new philhellene made modern Greek to the Morean folk.



I don't know what happened with Vlach language, I know what has happened with Arberesh language who is still spoken today in some places.
Vlachs are completely ignored in Greece and when they invaded Macedonia, first thing they did was to shut down autonomous Vlach church where they could perform liturgy in their own Romanian language.

Stop playing with the words. Arberesh, Arvanite, Arnaud, all these words means Albanian and according to British army commanders, around half of the Greek soldiers in Aegean Anatolia was speaking Albanian among themselves in 1919.

[Coolguy1]

Kollaps...Georgitsi!?!?

[alb0zfinest]

My mother is from Argolis, and while there are many Arvanitika villages in Argolis, my mother didn't come from one. I used it as an example that they had distinct settlements, which in the case of Argolis, it's still called like this, Arvanitia. Their villages are mainly on the coast, while my mother's village is on the mountain, near Arcadia.

What do you mean "forcefully" assimilated? I told you, they have freely spoken their language, unlike what happened in the 1930s with the Slavophones in northern Greek Macedonia who weren't allowed to. I stressed the word "forcefully" because assimilation of ethnolinguistic minorities is a natural process in history, and has happened everywhere, especially the Balkans. Do you have any proof that the Arvanites feel ethnically Albanians and claim they have suffered discrimination and persecution by the Greek state?



I am not a nationalist, I don't want to engage in Apricity Balkan Wars, I simply don't care so you can't troll me :coffee: Btw Lord Byron was gay so
he probably liked Albanian boys more.

Arvanites are Albanian
"Arvanites in Greece originated from Albanian settlers who moved south at different times between the 13th and 16th century from areas in what is today southern Albania.[6][page needed] The reasons for this migration are not entirely clear and may be manifold. In many instances the Arvanites were invited by the Byzantine and Latin rulers of the time. They were employed to re-settle areas that had been largely depopulated through wars, epidemics, and other reasons, and they were employed as soldiers. Some later movements are also believed to have been motivated to evade Islamization after the Ottoman conquest. The main waves of migration into southern Greece started around 1300, reached a peak some time during the 14th century, and ended around 1600.[7] Arvanites first reached Thessaly, then Attica, and finally the Peloponnese.[8]"
1)such is the quote from the wikipedia article: which clearly said to avoid islamization
2)the invitations from byzantine and latin rulers to work at the area of invitation explains their assimilation
3)"During the 20th century, after the creation of the Albanian nation-state, Arvanites in Greece have come to dissociate themselves much more strongly from the Albanians, stressing instead their national self-identification as Greeks" meaning they considerd themselvs albanian before
4)"1936–1941, Greek state institutions followed a policy of actively discouraging and repressing the use of Arvanitika" greek institutions made sure that the arvanitika (albanian) language was not used, which also contributed to assimilation.
5)"The name Arvanites and its equivalents go back to an old ethnonym that used in Greek to refer to Albanians" "the arvanites are'nt albanian" yet they're referd to as albanians
6)"The alternative exonym Albanians may ultimately be etymologically related, but is of less clear origin (see Albania (toponym)). It was probably conflated with that of the "Arbanitai" at some stage due to phonological similarity. In later Byzantine usage, the terms "Arbanitai" and "Albanoi", with a range of variants, were used interchangeably, while sometimes the same groups were also called by the classicising names Illyrians"
7)the arvanites were christian orthodox and so were the greeks for this reason they allied against the ottomans, because they clearly didn't like islam if they moved to places such as italy or greece to avoid it, while some albanians converted to islam because they got benefits. This explains the very few battles between the same people. religious wars have transpired in other countries as well but that doesnt change their ethnicity.
8)"Arvanites have come to be regarded as an integral part of the Greek nation. In 1899, leading representatives of the Arvanites in Greece, among them descendants of the independence heroes, published a manifesto calling their fellow Albanians outside Greece to join in the creation of a common Albanian-Greek state"
9)"At the same time, it has been suggested that many Arvanites in earlier decades maintained an assimilatory stance,[10] leading to a progressive loss of their traditional language and a shifting of the younger generation towards Greek. "
10)In the decades following World War II and the Greek Civil War, many Arvanites came under pressure to abandon Arvanitika in favour of monolingualism in the national language, and especially the archaizing Katharevousa which remained the official variant of Greek until 1976

Just the fact that Greeks had to use all those tactics (mostly agressive and physical) to keep the Arvanites from speaking their Albanian language and practicing their traditions shows alot. It's even proven by Organizations like Arvanitic league of Greece, that try to preserve Arvanite language and culture which they say is quite different from Greek.

[El Gre]

[QUOTE]so we can say that the Greek speaking areas was probably exaggerated in this map.

We can say that you are a retard and clown and that wont be an exxageration.


As you can see, large parts of Greece, Korinthias, half of southern Greece and surroundings of Athens was still speaking Albanian back then.
The dominant color on the map is purple, we know you are very stupid, but are you also blind?
Also look carefully for the definition of purple areas, it says "Neu-Griechische" meaning new Greek language.
Its to deferentiate between the Tsakonic dialect nothing else.

So, this map is most likely a progression report for the level of success in teaching new philhellene made modern Greek to the Morean folk.

A progression report LOL NO YOU FOOL it clearly says ETHNOGRAPHIC KARTE,
if we take your IDIOTIC theory of a progression report wouldnt you think the Germans would start 'Hellenizing' from Athens and work down the Morea, yet when you first enter the Pelopennese there are Arvanites. Did they work backwords and started from Kalamata ? LOL what a moron.

[kollaps]

At least you could have look at the map before you post here. It says ethnographic map but obviously this one shows the spoken languages in Morea. We can say that this is some kind of progress report from new Greece after 60 years of hellenism in 1890. Greece`s king was a Bavarian German back then and the map is done by Germans, so we can say that the Greek speaking areas was probably exaggerated in this map.

You don't use arguments and facts to prove your thesis, you use your thesis to prove your thesis. You always win, congrats.


Also look carefully for the definition of purple areas, it says "Neu-Griechische" meaning new Greek language.

Could it be possible to speak Ancient Greek or Byzantine Greek in 1890?

[kollaps]

Kollaps...Georgitsi!?!?

Hehe, very close to Georgitsi, Agios Konstantinos, a smaller village. Your parents/grandparents come from Georgitsi? :)

[Onur]

Could it be possible to speak Ancient Greek or Byzantine Greek in 1890?
Ofc not in ancient Greek, it was already extinct 1700 years ago but the Romioi of Istanbul and Izmir was speaking a form of Byzantine era Greek with lots of Turkish words in 1890. The ones in Morea was ignorant to that language except their bibles given to them by the Istanbul patriarchy because they weren't Greeks at all but they were Albanians, Vlachs, Gagauz etc., with different mothertongues.

[Coolguy1]

Hehe, very close to Georgitsi, Agios Konstantinos, a smaller village. Your parents/grandparents come from Georgitsi? :)

On my fathers side yes, my mom is from anavriti which is a little more south. :)

[Petros Houhoulis]

The case in Greece wasn't "natural". Many different ethnic groups has been forcefully assimilated in Greece and that includes your grandparents too. Turkish language was also forbidden in Greece just as slavic and Vlach but you say that there was no pressure upon Albanians, so tell us what was the privilege of Albanians?

Imho, you are just accepting this fact for all other groups but you are probably ashamed of accepting the same for your own Arvanite kinsmen but their situation was no different in Greece. Whatever happened to slavs, vlachs and turkish christians like Gagauz and Karamanlides, happened to Albanians too. All of them has been forcefully hellenized.


Thats irrelevant. Regardless of how the Albanians (Arvanites) of Greece feels today, this doesn't change the fact that they are Albanians.

I mean, if i migrate to Germany and start to feel myself as German, this doesn't change the fact that i am a Turk and my children wont be Germans just because i feel myself as such but they can only be assimilated Turks, just as you are assimilated Albanians of Greece.

Sorry Onur, but nobody accuses us of killing 1,5 million Armenians and countless others from the walls of Vienna to the Arabian peninsula.

There was never any direct Greek effort to ban the Albanian speech in Greece. A lot of Arvanites still speak their dialect because of that reason. Nevertheless, the Arvanites did never feel Albanians. When the Albanian ethnos was awakening during the 19th century, the Arvanites were already a functioning part of the Greek state for decades.

The only thing that the Arvanites were lacking were their own schools in their own language. They were never interested to have them, not even today...

So, where is the persecution Onur? Where is the force that Greece applied to the Albanians???

[Petros Houhoulis]

At least you could have look at the map before you post here. It says ethnographic map but obviously this one shows the spoken languages in Morea. We can say that this is some kind of progress report from new Greece after 60 years of hellenism in 1890. Greece`s king was a Bavarian German back then and the map is done by Germans, so we can say that the Greek speaking areas was probably exaggerated in this map.

As you can see, large parts of Greece, Korinthias, half of southern Greece and surroundings of Athens was still speaking Albanian back then. Also look carefully for the definition of purple areas, it says "Neu-Griechische" meaning new Greek language. So, this map is most likely a progression report for the level of success in teaching new philhellene made modern Greek to the Morean folk.

Vlachs are completely ignored in Greece and when they invaded Macedonia, first thing they did was to shut down autonomous Vlach church where they could perform liturgy in their own Romanian language.

Stop playing with the words. Arberesh, Arvanite, Arnaud, all these words means Albanian and according to British army commanders, around half of the Greek soldiers in Aegean Anatolia was speaking Albanian among themselves in 1919.

Either you like it or not the map is fairly accurate. The Greek speakers were the majority in the Peloponesse at that time.

Anyway, I wonder how a map of Turkey would look at that time.

The Bavarians were kicked out of Greece long before 1890. Therefore the map has nothing to do with them as Greek functionaries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece


Otto, Royal Prince of Bavaria, then Othon, King of Greece (Greek: Ὄθων, Βασιλεὺς τῆς Ἑλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867)

Otto was succeeded by a Dane: George I.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_I_of_Greece


George I (Greek: Γεώργιος Α΄, Βασιλεύς των Ελλήνων, Geórgios Α΄, Vasiléfs ton Ellínon; 24 December 1845 – 18 March 1913) was King of Greece from 1863 to 1913. Originally a Danish prince, George was only 17 years old when he was elected king by the Greek National Assembly, which had deposed the former king Otto.

As everybody can see, whatever you post is practically made up from your hallucinations, and does not correspond to reality.

BTW, the Vlach church was never recognized by the Patriarchate of Constantinople, and thus no LEGAL Christian Orthodox Vlach schools ever existed, either in Greece or in the Ottoman empire. So, while under the Ottoman empire your Pashas would shut down the Vlach schools, under the Greek state the Greek governors would shut down the Vlach schools (the 1-2 that existed all around Macedonia at any time...)

[AkisGreece]

Πάντως παιδιά,μην νομίζετε ότι διαφέρετε και πολλοί σε μορφωτικό επίπεδο από τους γείτονές μας.

Καλό θα ήτανε...άνθρωποι που δεν έχουν ιδέα περί του τι εστί Αρβανίτης...


ΝΑ ΤΟ ΒΟΥΛΩΣΟΥΝ!


Όχι μόνο μας αποκαλείτε εξελληνισμένους Αλβανούς,κάθεστε και επιχειρηματολογείτε κιόλας με ότι βρήκανε στο google images.


Πολύ χαμηλό επίπεδο η Ελλάδα.
Δυστυχώς.

Μακάρι να με αξιώσει ο Θεός να τα καταφέρω στο εξωτερικό και να φύγω από τη χαβούζα.
Μόνο αυτό προσεύχομαι πια...

[rashka]

The root word "arvan" sounds quite Armenian-like.

[Ushtari]

There was never any direct Greek effort to ban the Albanian speech in Greece. A lot of Arvanites still speak their dialect because of that reason.
An overwhelming majority do not speak it anymore.

Also, and why were many of them afraid to speak to strangers in their mother tongue?


Nevertheless, the Arvanites did never feel Albanians. When the Albanian ethnos was awakening during the 19th century, the Arvanites were already a functioning part of the Greek state for decades.
Then why did/do they call themselves Arbereshe then?:rolleyes:


The root word "arvan" sounds quite Armenian-like.
Its the Greek interpretation of the medieval name for Albanians 'Arbereshe'

[Γέλως]

Its the Greek interpretation of the medieval name for Albanians 'Arbereshe'
I believe it originates directly in the city of Arvana as stated in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites#Names).

[Ushtari]

I believe it originates directly in the city of Arvana as stated in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites#Names).
You mean the city of 'Arbanon/Arbana" as stated in the reference.


The original Albanian root is Arb, wich in Greek became Arv

Arbanon
Arbereshe
Arber
Arberi
Arbanitai

etc

[alb0zfinest]

Sorry Onur, but nobody accuses us of killing 1,5 million Armenians and countless others from the walls of Vienna to the Arabian peninsula.

There was never any direct Greek effort to ban the Albanian speech in Greece. A lot of Arvanites still speak their dialect because of that reason. Nevertheless, the Arvanites did never feel Albanians. When the Albanian ethnos was awakening during the 19th century, the Arvanites were already a functioning part of the Greek state for decades.

Then i guess this means nothing
point number 4 from my previous comment :4)"1936–1941, Greek state institutions followed a policy of actively discouraging and repressing the use of Arvanitika" greek institutions made sure that the arvanitika (albanian) language was not used, which also contributed to assimilation

or

point number 10)In the decades following World War II and the Greek Civil War, many Arvanites came under pressure to abandon Arvanitika in favour of monolingual ism in the national language, and especially the archaizing Katharevousa which remained the official variant of Greek until 197

The only thing that the Arvanites were lacking were their own schools in their own language. They were never interested to have them, not even today...

Is that why the Greek government needed to ban the use of the Arvanite language in certain periods, because people didn't like to use it much? if they dind't like to use it much the greek government wouldn't need to ban the use of Albanian if they see no threat in it.

What are you talking about
So, where is the persecution Onur? Where is the force that Greece applied to the Albanians???

look above