'Everyone's a pagan now'

[Phlegethon]

'Everyone's a pagan now' (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/22/paganism-stonehenge-environmentalism-witchcraft)

From morris dancers in mirror shades to green activists getting in touch with their spiritual side, paganism is going mainstream. Cole Moreton reports on a new national faith

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2009/6/21/1245623892167/The-Beltane-Bash-followin-001.jpg

[Cato]

Paganism is going mainstream.

Laurel-wearing, chanting, tambourine-beating, mummery if you ask me. How much of this modern paganism is really paganism and hiw much of it is just a mishmash of new age gobbledygook?

[M]ade pagan spirituality and mythology part of pop culture.

Indeed. This is why I refuse to associate with any but the most credible pagan and heathen organizations, Steve McNallen's Asatru Folk Assembly being the best example that I can think of.

I think Plutarch had this to say:

The sober Roman has little use for Epicureans.

While that might seem a bit dour, I've seen enough foolishness with these so-called neopagans to know that I don't really consider myself one of them.

[Beorn]

It's these 'wishy-washy' types who descend upon Stonehenge and mentally defecate all over the natural sanctity of such places.

If it isn't the great unwashed


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/06/21/article-1194470-056C8338000005DC-179_634x636.jpg


then it is the downright mentally unstable.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/06/21/article-1194470-056C5279000005DC-474_306x455.jpg


With each and everyone of them all respecting nature of course. ;)


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/06/22/article-1194470-056CC9B3000005DC-228_634x426.jpg

[Smaland]

The Guardian does not speak for me, I will always be a Christian. :)

[Kempenzoon]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/06/22/article-1194470-056CC9B3000005DC-228_634x426.jpg


These kind of "pagans" already piss me off by default, but that they'd leave nature in a state like that, and STILL claim to be pagan, that should be treated as treason against the earth.

It's a monument ffs, not a Woodstock pt 2, and I hope those hippies stop treating it as such some day.

[Heimmacht]

These kind of "pagans" already piss me off by default, but that they'd leave nature in a state like that, and STILL claim to be pagan, that should be treated as treason against the earth.

It's a monument ffs, not a Woodstock pt 2, and I hope those hippies stop treating it as such some day.

They do not understand why they are standing in front of stonehenge anyway. These people have no pride and no respect or even proper knowledge to begin with.

[Cato]

These people have no pride and no respect or even proper knowledge to begin with.

Which is what neopagans are, for the most part, faddish ignorants who want to use magick or engage in banal rituals or cavort around like a pack of drunken Baccantes.


These kind of "pagans" already piss me off by default, but that they'd leave nature in a state like that, and STILL claim to be pagan, that should be treated as treason against the earth.

It's a monument ffs, not a Woodstock pt 2, and I hope those hippies stop treating it as such some day.

What sheer disrespect to such a sacred site. These people typify the modern mindset of "make a mess, let someone else clean it up." :eek:

[Loki]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/06/21/article-1194470-056C5279000005DC-474_306x455.jpg




Haha, I find such people fascinating. :D

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45953000/jpg/_45953726_dale_pa341jpg.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45953000/jpg/_45953722_hugger_pa766.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45953000/jpg/_45953757_party2_pa766.jpg

But this ...


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/06/22/article-1194470-056CC9B3000005DC-228_634x426.jpg


:thumb down2

[Cato]

Haha, I find such people fascinating. :D

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45953000/jpg/_45953726_dale_pa341jpg.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45953000/jpg/_45953722_hugger_pa766.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45953000/jpg/_45953757_party2_pa766.jpg

But this ...


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/06/22/article-1194470-056CC9B3000005DC-228_634x426.jpg


:thumb down2

Such people will reap what they sow- and then expect someone else to bail them out when the shit hits the fan. Look at that picture of the girl posing stupidly and hoisting the smashed-up plastic bottle in her left hand (and note the milling crowds in general, they seem stupefied or unaware of their surroundings), full of grog of some kind no doubt- this is the future our people unless something is done. :mad:

[Kempenzoon]

Haha, I find such people fascinating. :D

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45953000/jpg/_45953726_dale_pa341jpg.jpg

I think she's hot.

The other two, meh.

[Cato]

I think she's hot.

The other two, meh.

Gazing mysteriously into the distance.. as her inebriated male friend in Gandalf costume urinates on Salisbury Plain.

[Groenewolf]

Such people will reap what they sow- and then expect someone else to bail them out when the shit hits the fan. Look at that picture of the girl posing stupidly and hoisting the smashed-up plastic bottle in her left hand (and note the milling crowds in general, they seem stupefied or unaware of their surroundings), full of grog of some kind no doubt- this is the future our people unless something is done. :mad:

That last girl would probaly be indeed more at home at some kind of concert. What also looks like most of these people are doing there. Just getting drunk.

[Poltergeist]

I have yet to meet a serious pagan.

[Loki]

I have yet to meet a serious pagan.

You've come to the right place then. ;)

[Phlegethon]

DewEKz9TzmM

[Óttar]

Laurel-wearing, chanting, tambourine-beating

I think laurels are stylish, and when used with tasteful clothing they can be a nice touch. As for chanting, I think it would be good if these "pagans" would actually learn a bit of a different language in order to chant. I think the chants should be authentic with their basis in text.

For example, I like to recite a deity's titles in the original Latin.. i.e. my patron is Isis (who was worshipped throughout the Roman world) so I repeat a litany like, "Magna Mater, Domina Mundi, Dea Coelesti, Rosa Mystica, Regina Threni, Threnus Regiorum, Mater Deorum, Mater Regiorum, Domina Augustissima, Stella Maris, etc. I then make declarations such as: "Mater Isidis, Matrona mea, sum servator tuo, filius et amator et flamen tuo sum."

I also advocate tambourine beating as it was a part of ancient mediterranean religious instrumentation. I have always been interested in the Galli cult, eunuch-priests of the goddess Cybele who beat out a tune known as the Gallyambic metre in their rites which included before they performed their dastardly deed. Unfortunately, I have never been able to find the notation for this drumbeat nor hear it. Again, the keyword is authenticity.


I think Plutarch had this to say:
The sober Roman has little use for Epicureans.


I think it is imperative that people see feasting, fermenting (among other f words) as holy things, things which should not be denied in the name of a self-righteous "holiness." Verily I find no virtue in asceticism. Every major religion today has been infected by ascetic thinking in one way or another (including my beloved Hinduism.) I do agree however that most rituals be performed in a spirit of solemnity. (Be serious, after all, these are the gods you are addressing.)

I think the problem is that 95% of today's "paganism" has absolutely no basis in text, or in approximating what the ancients actually did, which is tragic because ancient paganism is, to me, the perfect religion (or perhaps one should say group of religions) it allows for infinite expressions, and the exchange of ideas. Ancient religion was completely sufficient in and of itself for thousands upon thousands of years. It had no need of crystal balls, pink glitter, anti-intellectual wannabe hippies, costumes, cheesy fantasy and/or deluded teenagers.

The absolute worst are these so called "Celtic/Druid" types who dress up as if they were from the Wizard of Oz or a Christmas pageant. They have no basis in an authentic ancient tradition, but are instead based on 18th and 19th century fantasies (along with just downright stupidity.) They insult their ancient ancestors and give them a bad name.

People who give themselves names like Rainbow Featherchild or Magicbird Starweasel in the name of "paganism" give me the urge to hurl.

[Cato]

I think laurels are stylish, and when used with tasteful clothing they can be a nice touch. As for chanting, I think it would be good if these "pagans" would actually learn a bit of a different language in order to chant. I think the chants should be authentic with their basis in text.

For example, I like to recite a deity's titles in the original Latin.. i.e. my patron is Isis (who was worshipped throughout the Roman world) so I repeat a litany like, "Magna Mater, Domina Mundi, Dea Coelesti, Rosa Mystica, Regina Threni, Threnus Regiorum, Mater Deorum, Mater Regiorum, Domina Augustissima, Stella Maris, etc. I then make declarations such as: "Mater Isidis, Matrona mea, sum servator tuo, filius et amator et flamen tuo sum."

I also advocate tambourine beating as it was a part of ancient mediterranean religious instrumentation. I have always been interested in the Galli cult, eunuch-priests of the goddess Cybele who beat out a tune known as the Gallyambic metre in their rites which included before they performed their dastardly deed. Unfortunately, I have never been able to find the notation for this drumbeat nor hear it. Again, the keyword is authenticity.



I think it is imperative that people see feasting, fermenting (among other f words) as holy things, things which should not be denied in the name of a self-righteous "holiness." Verily I find no virtue in asceticism. Every major religion today has been infected by ascetic thinking in one way or another (including my beloved Hinduism.) I do agree however that most rituals be performed in a spirit of solemnity. (Be serious, after all, these are the gods you are addressing.)

I think the problem is that 95% of today's "paganism" has absolutely no basis in text, or in approximating what the ancients actually did, which is tragic because ancient paganism is, to me, the perfect religion (or perhaps one should say group of religions) it allows for infinite expressions, and the exchange of ideas. Ancient religion was completely sufficient in and of itself for thousands upon thousands of years. It had no need of crystal balls, pink glitter, anti-intellectual wannabe hippies, costumes, cheesy fantasy and/or deluded teenagers.

The absolute worst are these so called "Celtic/Druid" types who dress up as if they were from the Wizard of Oz or a Christmas pageant. They have no basis in an authentic ancient tradition, but are instead based on 18th and 19th century fantasies (along with just downright stupidity.) They insult their ancient ancestors and give them a bad name.

People who give themselves names like Rainbow Featherchild or Magicbird Starweasel in the name of "paganism" give me the urge to hurl.

I believe in God (transcendence, the Uncreated Creator), the gateway to which is archetypal Gods (immanence). I'm not a pagan in either the traditional or modern sense- I just prefer that term above and beyond others.

My guardian daimon is Athena, whom I also understand to be Bellona, Fulgora, Minerva, Nike-Victoria, Roma, Sophia and various other incarnations of the steely-eyed Goddess. IOW, I see aspects of the female personification of culture, force and wisdom- whom I most affectionately call Athena or Athena surnamed Columbia- Columbia being the female personfication of the United States.

I don't want to resurrect the ancient paganism; I don't want to speak Greek or Latin; I don't want to put on laurels and togas and parade around like a buffoon. My gateway to self-empowerment is first made known in Athens, then in Rome, and lately in America. In all three cases, the personification of each state was a female Goddess (Athena, Roma and Columbia, even of the last was not worshipped). In all three cases, this Goddess represented the highest values of each culture: for example, wisdom in Athens, force in Rome, and freedom in America. These are divine ideals and shouldn't be taken lightly; I doubt I'd be able to convince very many other people that the truest deity for a civilized nation is a civilized God or Goddess that splendidly melds male and female into a single whole. It's for this reason that Athena is often almost androgynous in ancient artistic portrayls.

The God of Gods, whomever he is, is respected a great deal, but he can't be the ultimate object of worship simply because he's unknown. His intermediary, or his firstborn child, is wisdom, controlled force, the arts of civilization and culture and the freedom of expression that makes us uniquely human- this is my ideal object of devotion. Mind is what I ultimately worship, you might say, not any sort of banal savior or horn-tooting satyr. I doubt these modern neopagans and Wiccans have given concepts like this much thought.

[Birka]

I think she's hot.

The other two, meh.

This girl just screams Celtic to me.


Oops, the picture of the girl in the green tunic was supposed to appear here.

[Gooding]

This girl just screams Celtic to me.


Oops, the picture of the girl in the green tunic was supposed to appear here.

She did have that look, didn't she? LOL, she could just as easily have been German or Slavic, though.Pretty girl, all the same.:thumb001:

[Brynhild]

The absolute worst are these so called "Celtic/Druid" types who dress up as if they were from the Wizard of Oz or a Christmas pageant. They have no basis in an authentic ancient tradition, but are instead based on 18th and 19th century fantasies (along with just downright stupidity.) They insult their ancient ancestors and give them a bad name.

People who give themselves names like Rainbow Featherchild or Magicbird Starweasel in the name of "paganism" give me the urge to hurl.

Aye, and all over them. They then have no choice but to clean that up, assuming there's any pride in them to do so!

I call that lot "Fluff Bunnies".

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Even the French love stone henge

http://www.afunnystuff.com/videos/Funny-videos/French-tourists-visit-stonehenge.html

Pagan groups and what they stand for.
http://groups.yahoo.com/phrase/pagan-jokes

[SwordoftheVistula]

This is why I don't think the suggestion frequently passed around in nationalist circles to replace 'semitic Christianity' with 'authentic heathenism' is going to do much good, other than perhaps add to the perception of us a weird fruitcakes (according to this article, this is no longer the case in England as much, but still a serious concern when dealing with a large portion of the non-left). It's the same people, same underlying ideology, at least equal amount of wackiness, same problems, or perhaps worse.

[Phlegethon]

Pretty girl, all the same.:thumb001:

Stop lusting for witches or I'll call the Witchfynder General!

http://www.b-movies.gr/UserFiles/Image/witchfinder%20general/witchfinder%20general%2006.jpg

[Cato]

This is why I don't think the suggestion frequently passed around in nationalist circles to replace 'semitic Christianity' with 'authentic heathenism' is going to do much good, other than perhaps add to the perception of us a weird fruitcakes (according to this article, this is no longer the case in England as much, but still a serious concern when dealing with a large portion of the non-left). It's the same people, same underlying ideology, at least equal amount of wackiness, same problems, or perhaps worse.

Christianity obviously has Jewish influences, but it's really just a religion that's more akin to the ancient sun-revering cults like Mithraism or Atenism. Any higher cosmic truth that Christianity may've taught at one time has been dumbed-down. A revitalized Mithraism, which taught many of the same doctrines as Christianity (salvation, equality in the eyes of the God), would be very interesting to consider. This is especially true when you see that Mithraism was very tolerant of other religions- religious iconography from traditional Greco-Roman paganism and the mystery cult of Isis, for example, have been found within surviving mithraea.

However, I'm not for bringing back the ancient forms of religion in toto. The people that held those specific beliefs are long dead. These ancient beliefs would have to be modified to the present day. For example, some practitioners of Hellenismos use Greek; some of Religion Romana use Latin. I find this about as understandable as chanting the Catholic mass in Latin when the local, vernacular language suffices more than adequately. It's showy and only those who have a grasp of the ancient language will understand what's going on. The specific word I have in mind is karapan, a term used in Zoroastrian writings to describe the pre-Zoroastrian priests; the term means mumbler, which is exactly what a lot of modern pagans do. They mumble a confusing litany and give an equally confusing litany about the Gods they worship (I've seen the Goddess Athena used as a fixation for yogic meditation, for example)- are they modern people or do they think they're ancient Greeks and Romans? Or, even worse, are they New Agers who take this and that to create a slapdash approach to religion? One of the few biblical injunctions that I agree with is to avoid mummers (spiritists, psychic, fortune-tellers and so forth), these New Agey fools who approach the divine like sideshow carnies.

Considering that the Gods in the ancient world spread far and wide, I doubt they're too overly concerned with what language you speak or what your background is, otherwise Isis could only have been worshipped by Egyptians who spoke Egyptians; Athena by Greeks who spoke Greek.

I understand the purist position, that a given religion (Asatru, for example), is a biological legacy. This is another thought-form; certain religions weren't very universal in character, such as the ancient heathenry. Compare this to the universal character of the Greco-Roman religion. Neither is correct nor incorrect and both are a specific way of relating to the divine. So do is the supposed difference between monotheism and polytheism. Like Thomas Paine, I believe in One God, but he is approached through his conceptual attributes, the one that I find most appealing (wisdom).

[Psychonaut]

It's the same people

Nope. Most Heathens would self identify as conservative, while most neopagans (in the US at least) would identify as liberal.


same underlying ideology

Not at all. Neopagan "theology," if you can even call it that, is a horrible mish-mash of Eastern, New Age and Theosophic ideas. Heathenry's ideology is quite close to the actual beliefs of our ancestors.


at least equal amount of wackiness

Not so much. Most Heathens nowadays can't stand they types who treat Heathen gatherings like SCA events. I've never attended a rite where anyone showed up wearing period clothing. The rites in CA that I attended were made up of 50 or so people, all of whom looked like outdoorsmen.

[Cato]

I'm reminded of people like furries, LARPers, otherkin and otaku when I think of neopagans and Wiccans- shambling sacks of human sadness.

:p

[Óttar]

Christianity obviously has Jewish influences, but it's really just a religion that's more akin to the ancient sun-revering cults like Mithraism or Atenism. Any higher cosmic truth that Christianity may've taught at one time has been dumbed-down. A revitalized Mithraism, which taught many of the same doctrines as Christianity (salvation, equality in the eyes of the God), would be very interesting to consider. This is especially true when you see that Mithraism was very tolerant of other religions- religious iconography from traditional Greco-Roman paganism and the mystery cult of Isis, for example, have been found within surviving mithraea.

Too bad Mithraism didn't win out as the dominant mystery cult. This is something I lament greatly. Perhaps Constantine would have reconsidered had he seen what would become of the church and the highly intolerant and destructive legislations enacted by Theodosius.


For example, some practitioners of Hellenismos use Greek; some of Religion Romana use Latin. I find this about as understandable as chanting the Catholic mass in Latin when the local, vernacular language suffices more than adequately. It's showy and only those who have a grasp of the ancient language will understand what's going on.

Liturgical languages imbue religion with a sense of mysticism and solemnity. I do not care for the Church, I find it ironic that the very people who Christ rebelled against co-opted his religion. Like the saying goes "The ones who nailed him to a cross now rule in his name." Be that as it may, the removal of the Latin Mass de-sacralized what little magic the Roman Catholic rite may have once contained. These fake pagans nowadays don't bother to learn any languages associated with the people they pretend to revere. Most pseudo-Celtic/Druid types can't speak Gaelic or Welsh and don't care to. I recite litanies to my Patroness in Latin because I consider the Romans to have had the most highly developed and beautiful ancient tradition. The Latin tongue is imbued with a certain potentia. My speaking a litany in Latin allows for a certain intimacy between me and my chosen deity. Languages are codes and when I dwell in the sanctum sanctorum I attempt to express myself in something other than my everyday common speech. I certainly don't knock anyone for praying in a liturgical language, after all, how many of today's pseudo-pagans even take the time to know another tongue?


Considering that the Gods in the ancient world spread far and wide, I doubt they're too overly concerned with what language you speak or what your background is, otherwise Isis could only have been worshipped by Egyptians who spoke Egyptians; Athena by Greeks who spoke Greek.

I don't doubt that the gods understand the many tongues of the barbarians. I don't use Latin because I think She doesn't understand English, I use it because it is sublime and beautiful.


I understand the purist position, that a given religion (Asatru, for example), is a biological legacy. This is another thought-form; certain religions weren't very universal in character, such as the ancient heathenry. Compare this to the universal character of the Greco-Roman religion. Neither is correct nor incorrect and both are a specific way of relating to the divine. So too is the supposed difference between monotheism and polytheism. Like Thomas Paine, I believe in One God, but he is approached through his conceptual attributes, the one that I find most appealing (wisdom).

The kind of system you are speaking of i.e. One God with many names and manifestations, is not monotheism proper, but is rather monism a la Hinduism or the ancient mystery cults. The difference between Abrahamic monotheism and the ancient monism is the former seeks to destroy all other expressions of spirituality besides its own single narrow conception whereas the latter accomodates different beliefs and practices within its larger framework.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Nope. Most Heathens would self identify as conservative, while most neopagans (in the US at least) would identify as liberal.

You've got a similar divide in the Christians, with most evangelicals identifying as conservative, and many of the 'mainline protestant' such as Methodist, United Church of Christ, Unitarians, Episcopalians identifying as liberal.



Heathenry's ideology is quite close to the actual beliefs of our ancestors.

I'm highly skeptical of this claim, considering how little survived from 1500 years ago.




Not so much. Most Heathens nowadays can't stand they types who treat Heathen gatherings like SCA events. I've never attended a rite where anyone showed up wearing period clothing. The rites in CA that I attended were made up of 50 or so people, all of whom looked like outdoorsmen.


I'm reminded of people like furries, LARPers, otherkin and otaku when I think of neopagans and Wiccans- shambling sacks of human sadness.

I've met some 'heathens', 'pagans', 'wiccans', etc who are intelligent, sane, decent people. I've read some of Steve McNallens writings, he makes a lot of sense, but some others not so much. I've met a lot who are just plain nuts, for example one thread opened on here recently about a Stephen Flowers who is a former member of the Church of Satan-you just can't take seriously someone who has proclaimed himself 'Grand Master of the Order of the Trapezoid'. Also, society in general considers all these to be the same, all part of 'the occult', so if this assortment of religions becomes associated with nationalism, you have another obstacle to overcome as with associations with certain time periods of Germany and the American South.


Too bad Mithraism didn't win out as the dominant mystery cult. This is something I lament greatly. Perhaps Constantine would have reconsidered had he seen what would become of the church and the highly intolerant and destructive legislations enacted by Theodosius.

Given this, it is unlikely it would have:


The difference between Abrahamic monotheism and the ancient monism is the former seeks to destroy all other expressions of spirituality besides its own single narrow conception whereas the latter accomodates different beliefs and practices within its larger framework.

...since a belief system 'seeks to destroy all other expressions' will triumph over one which 'accomodates different beliefs and practices within its larger framework'

Interestingly enough, many people say that the enlightenment happened in Europe instead of the middle east because Christianity is more 'accommodating of different beliefs and practices', though I think it was more a replacement of Christianity (the old form) with 'secular humanism', and was able to come about because of the power of the monarchs.

Also, Christianity has changed a lot over the years, the Christianity as adopted and enforced by Rome was a lot different than the early years, so even if Zoroastrianism has won out over Christianity, we would have seen a 'Roman Zoroastrian Church'. The main reason I think that Christianity was chosen in the first place was that as a universal 'one true religion' they could consolidate everything in the widespread, diverse empire into one religion, and the various local gods (saints) could be subsumed to a central authority.

[Cato]

Too bad Mithraism didn't win out as the dominant mystery cult. This is something I lament greatly. Perhaps Constantine would have reconsidered had he seen what would become of the church and the highly intolerant and destructive legislations enacted by Theodosius.

I always wondered why Constantine chose to support the fishermen over his fellow sun cultists. The only reasons that I can think of are twofold: 1) Christians, by this time, were a sizeable minority with wealth, property and clout. Constantine pragmatically chose to support them when none of his rivals, like Maxentius, would; 2) Constantine's support of the Christians has been overplayed by later history. The man remained a pagan untill the end of his life. At best, he was a lukewarm Christian who was more interested in gaining temporal power over the carcass of the Roman empire.


Liturgical languages imbue religion with a sense of mysticism and solemnity. I do not care for the Church, I find it ironic that the very people who Christ rebelled against co-opted his religion. Like the saying goes "The ones who nailed him to a cross now rule in his name." Be that as it may, the removal of the Latin Mass de-sacralized what little magic the Roman Catholic rite may have once contained. These fake pagans nowadays don't bother to learn any languages associated with the people they pretend to revere. Most pseudo-Celtic/Druid types can't speak Gaelic or Welsh and don't care to. I recite litanies to my Patroness in Latin because I consider the Romans to have had the most highly developed and beautiful ancient tradition. The Latin tongue is imbued with a certain potentia. My speaking a litany in Latin allows for a certain intimacy between me and my chosen deity. Languages are codes and when I dwell in the sanctum sanctorum I attempt to express myself in something other than my everyday common speech. I certainly don't knock anyone for praying in a liturgical language, after all, how many of today's pseudo-pagans even take the time to know another tongue?

Having just read The Satanic Bible, your position is exactly that of the late Anton LeVay. He maintained that, robbed of its ancient mystique, the Catholic mass of to-day is a farce. The ceremonial pomp and use of Latin gave the Catholic mass an aura of mystical power and, as LeVay points out, ritual and ceremony are something that people intrinsically need.

As for myself, I scorn ritual and ceremony. When I pray, I just use good old American English. Being God, I'm quite certain that I am understood by the subject of my prayers. I'm not pretending to be an ancient Hellene or Quirite and, even though I adopt certain divine attributes from ancient Greece and Rome to use as divine focii (also combining Athena in my mind with Columbia, modern America's female personification, for example), ultimately the object of my adoration transcends time and space and history. I prefer a more deistic approach to religion; my mistrust of what Tom Paine called priestcraft has never really waned.



I don't doubt that the gods understand the many tongues of the barbarians. I don't use Latin because I think She doesn't understand English, I use it because it is sublime and beautiful.

I might look at it this way, Athena prefers what is straightforward and useful. Rather than take the time to learn Greek (which dialect, Attic, Koine?) or Latin, I just use what is most utilitarian to speak to her- English.


The kind of system you are speaking of i.e. One God with many names and manifestations, is not monotheism proper, but is rather monism a la Hinduism or the ancient mystery cults. The difference between Abrahamic monotheism and the ancient monism is the former seeks to destroy all other expressions of spirituality besides its own single narrow conception whereas the latter accomodates different beliefs and practices within its larger framework.

I don't consider it to be monotheism per se, merely a belief in God who has personfied attributes that are the lesser deities. That's a bit of the Orphic Mysteries and, I believe, Egypt had a similar belief system with the neter often seen as being the parts of Ra or some other great deity. My belief in One God has never waned, but I also find the belief in many Gods to be useful when I mentally reflect on sublime matters. There's also the matter that names, such as Athena and Isis, are much easier to identify with and form a rapport with than a Deity who has no shape or form or substance, indeed no real existence other than a mental conception.

[SwordoftheVistula]

I always wondered why Constantine chose to support the fishermen over his fellow sun cultists...he was a lukewarm Christian who was more interested in gaining temporal power over the carcass of the Roman empire.

I think that Christianity was better suited to gaining temporal power over the carcass of the Roman empire. Like Ottar said, Zoroastrianism was tolerant of other religions, which would have defeated the whole purpose of creating a state religion to replace the mishmash of local and tribal religions and thereby attempt to restore some unity and cohesion to the empire.

[Cato]

I think that Christianity was better suited to gaining temporal power over the carcass of the Roman empire. Like Ottar said, Zoroastrianism was tolerant of other religions, which would have defeated the whole purpose of creating a state religion to replace the mishmash of local and tribal religions and thereby attempt to restore some unity and cohesion to the empire.

Having considered Mithraism, I know that it was a religion of equity and tolerance. Slaves, freedmen, citizens and even royalty all rubbed elbows in the mithraea. Some commentators have pointed out that this broad-mindedness was the religion's undoing. Can fraternal tolerance really defeat intolerant single-mindedness such as the fanatics of Christ displayed once they finally won out at Rome? Even a militant religion like Mithraism, which seems to have had no real central authority, would go under pretty quickly to well-organized strikes by the fishermen- as in fact happened because, while some pagan religions like the Isis cult, held out for a couple of centuries into the 500s or so, Mithraism seems to vanish at about the time the empire became officially Christian in the Constantinian years.