Some Macedonian Surnames

[Novi Pazar]

Sorry guys, l'm not going to flood the forum, l just want to add further to the Male first name SRBIN.

How do you explain surnames like Srbinovski, Milosavlevski, Stanisavevski Dobrivoyeski, Yovanovski (not: Ivanovski), Kneževski (not: Knezovski), Stanoykovski, Đorđevski (not: Georgievski), Kraljevski (not:Kralevski), Dimitriyevski (not: Dimitrovski), Stanoykovski (not: Stankovski), Vukadinovski (not: Volkadinovski), Vučkovski (not: Volčevski)............and many others............

This are only names with specific Serbian roots, unknown in Bulgarian or with different form.Demonstrating the Serbian character of the bearers of a surname that has root present both in Bulgaria and Serbia, i.e Živkovski, Arsovski, Nikolovski, Petrovski, Stankovski etc. is not possible based solely on them.

[Crn Volk]

Sorry guys, l'm not going to flood the forum, l just want to add further to the Male first name SRBIN.

How do you explain surnames like Srbinovski, Milosavlevski, Stanisavevski Dobrivoyeski, Yovanovski (not: Ivanovski), Kneževski (not: Knezovski), Stanoykovski, Đorđevski (not: Georgievski), Kraljevski (not:Kralevski), Dimitriyevski (not: Dimitrovski), Stanoykovski (not: Stankovski), Vukadinovski (not: Volkadinovski), Vučkovski (not: Volčevski)............and many others............

This are only names with specific Serbian roots, unknown in Bulgarian or with different form.Demonstrating the Serbian character of the bearers of a surname that has root present both in Bulgaria and Serbia, i.e Živkovski, Arsovski, Nikolovski, Petrovski, Stankovski etc. is not possible based solely on them.

The root of those names would have been someone's first name at some point. They are not very common in the Pelagonia region though. Maybe further north.

[Novi Pazar]

The root of those names would have been someone's first name at some point. They are not very common in the Pelagonia region though. Maybe further north.

True Sokol. The Torlakian dialect is present in the Kumanovo/Sv Nikole and Kratovo regions. The evolution of our slavic dialects is so complex and weird, do you know that in the west Bugarski dialects and Eastern Macedonian dialects they use Ja/On/Ona/Oni like in standard Serbian etc.... not Toj/Ta/Toa toe as in standard macedonian etc....

Even when one looks inside Macedonia the word for hand Raka (standard macedonian) whilst in North its Ruka (Torlakian) and west its Rolka?

Just weird man!

[poiuytrewq0987]

1. Serbianized Bulgarian

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/bmk2.png

2. or a Serbian colonizer

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/bmk3.png

[poiuytrewq0987]

True Sokol. The Torlakian dialect is present in the Kumanovo/Sv Nikole and Kratovo regions. The evolution of our slavic dialects is so complex and weird, do you know that in the west Bugarski dialects and Eastern Macedonian dialects they use Ja/On/Ona/Oni like in standard Serbian etc.... not Toj/Ta/Toa toe as in standard macedonian etc....

Even when one looks inside Macedonia the word for hand Raka (standard macedonian) whilst in North its Ruka (Torlakian) and west its Rolka?

Just weird man!

Torlaks and South Serbs are Serbianized Bulgarians. Nish and Pirot were Bulgarian cities and they were one time part of the Bulgarian Exarchate. But Serbian expansionism and chauvinism changed their identity, unfortunately.

[Novi Pazar]

Where do l begin Dusan with your two posts :D

First l'll start with the Torlacki narod (Srbi). I do want to stress that l don't agree with language (Slavic) as an indicator for ethnicity in the Balkans because it doesn't agree with settlements, migrations and culture, why do l say this, simply because in the South Balkans it was noted that a remnant Slovene type language did exist into our modern era. Anyway, l will say the following, it will be contradicting, however it will serve the purpose that l want to reveal.

N. van Wijk demonstrated that Torlakian (sister dialect Shopi) is part of the Serbo-Croat dialects, Torlakian and Shopi have RETAINED most of its declension system (has lost some), whilst modern Macedonian and Bulgarian have virtually LOST them, except for a few remnants!

The following is from Pavle Ivic from his work ( Pavle Ivić, "Dijalektologija srpskohrvatskog jezika" (The Dialectology of the Serbo-Croatian language).

"The dialects of the Prizren—Timok [i.e. Torlakian] zone have evolved from the easternmost group of Štokavian dialects. Their Serbo-Croatian origin is clearly testified by those characteristics given in § 5 [that is, the characteristics of the Western South Slavonic dialects also present in Torlakian], and their belonging to the Štokavian dialectal group is manifested through the presence of Štokavian innovations such as *skj, *stj, *zgj, *zdj > št, žđ; čr- > cr-, vь > u-, and vs- > sv-, and on the other hand, through the lack of innovations that occur in Čakavian and Kajkavian dialects. The difference between these dialects and their southeastern and eastern neighbouring dialects of the Macedonian and Bulgarian languages, was clear and strong even during the time of Slavonic migrations to the Balkans (§ 5). However, differences between Torlakian and Štokavian were even not present at all at first. These dialects were barely distinct from the present-day Kosovo—Resava dialect (which, after all, is still lively connected to this dialectal group, cf. § 101). The only significant phonetic specific was the change l̩ > lu in a few cases, however only existent in Prizren—South Morava area. It is very specific that yat here, like elsewhere in Štokavian dialects, before being rendered became closer than vowel /ɛ/, which is supported by the state in Krašovan dialect, which originates from this area (§ 220)."
"§ 126. The central event in the later evolution of the dialects from the Prizren—Timok zone was the appearance of the so-called balkanisms, characteristics specific for other Balkan languages, Slavonic and non-Slavonic. (The significance of these features is pretty high, giving that none of the mentioned Prizren—Timok archaisms makes an absolute boundary toward the standard Štokavian type: the reflex of semivowel is preserved as a distinct phoneme in many speeches of the Zeta—Sjenica dialect as well, the syllabic l in almost all Prizren—Timok speeches has evolved into /u/ after all in a few examples, and the final -l hasn’t been left unaltered on the whole area of this dialectal zone.) The lack of pitch oppositions (of quality as well as quantity), the analytic comparison, and the doubled use of personal pronouns is also found in the Greek, Romanian, Albanian, Bulgarian, and Macedonian languages. The same can be applied to omitting the infinitive. The analytic principle exists in Bulgarian and Macedonian declensions, too. Modern Greek, Romanian, and Albanian declensions show these simplifications as well, and tend to use a reduced number of grammatical cases. The usage of the three postpositive pronouns is common in most of the Macedonian dialects, and in other Macedonian dialects and the huge majority of Bulgarian ones the true postpositive article has evolved. The true origin of each of these characteristics is not clear yet, but it is certain that they have been transmitted from one Balkan language into another. It is clear that these balkanisms in the Prizren—Timok dialect have not evolved spontaneously, but have rather been brought from the neighbouring languages. [...] After all, it is clear that the dialects of the Prizren—Timok zone have entered the Balkansprachbund not sooner than the 15th century. Therefore, the main isoglosses that connect the Prizren—Timok dialects with the Bulgarian and Macedonian languages are chronologically only secondary in relation to those that show their connections with other Štokavian dialects. Thus they, even though they may be important for the typological characterization of the dialects, yet mean nothing when it comes to their origin. (Although the structural phenomena may be linguistically important, it cannot be used as a criteria for defining the connections between language types. [...] If only structural criteria was taken in count, one would have acquired most absurd conclusions, e.g. that Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects are closer to Aromanian and Romanian than Slavonic languages.)"

[Novi Pazar]

Torlaks and South Serbs are Serbianized Bulgarians. Nish and Pirot were Bulgarian cities and they were one time part of the Bulgarian Exarchate. But Serbian expansionism and chauvinism changed their identity, unfortunately.

Outside of Southern Serbia (Macedonia) the Exarchos only operated for a few years. It does not mean when one joins the Exarchos they are a Bulgar. Hugo Grothe says the following regarding Southern Serbia (Macedonia), "If, during the church plebiscite of 1872, two thirds of the Christian Slavs voted for the Exarchate, this WAS BY NO MEANS A CONFESSION OF THEIR BULGARIAN DESCENT."

I also want you to be aware that Serb noble men were buried in the Shopi/Torlak areas of Western Bulgarian, example, King Milutin! Why would he want to be buried because there were Bulgarians? No, not at all, its because of the following arguement l will put forth:

Samokov, Dusan, now a country seat in Bulgaria, had at a time a NUMEROUS Serbian population: near the town were situated Srpsko Selo (Srubsko Selo) and Srpski Samokov (remained simply to Samokov). It was the DENSE SERBIAN population in this area that CAUSED IT TO BE ASSIGNED TO THE RESUSCITATED PATRIARCHATE OF PEC. Sofia, meanwhile, remained within the Patriarchate of Byzantium. It is also noteworthy that it was only within the borders of the Patriarchate of Pec that the SPIRT of REBELLION and the readiness to fight the Turks were constantly alive.

[Novi Pazar]

The quote you gave me does not gel, there are Southern Serbs (Macedonians) whos surnames were forcibly changed from Krstic to Hristov then during Yugoslavia to Hristovski.

I want you to turn your attention to the NY times of 1918:

Bulgarizing the Serbs
Jul 3, 1918, Wednesday

Eastern and Southeastern Serbiathe Morava Valley, Nish, Skoplje--are at present in the hands of Bulgaria. There was a time, and not, so long ago, when, according to some students of the complications of races in the Balkans, Eastern Serbs and Western Bulgars ...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.ht....9619C946996D6CF

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fre....9619C946996D6CF

OR

Bulgars Killed Serbs Brutally

BULGARS KILLED SERBS BRUTALLY; Ward Price Sees Proof of Wholesale Butcheries of Civilians. VILLAGERS GIVE DETAILS Tell of Peasants Being Tortured to Death and of Sufferings of Women Victims. Slaughtered 50 at a Time. BULGARS KILLED SERBS BRUTALLY Vranja Looted Periodically.

By WARD PRICE. Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES.

Nov 19, 1918, Tuesday

VRANJA, Serbia, Oct. 20. (via London, Nov. 17)--Here is a story of cold-blooded butchery without equal even in this war. It is a tale of deliberate, systematic effort by the Bulgarians extending over three months to exterminate the national spirit of ...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.ht....FB7678383609EDE

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fre....FB7678383609EDE



Do you want more?

[Novi Pazar]

^ Why not lets give you one more:

30,000 SERBS DIED IN BULGAR CAMPS; British War Prisoners En Route to Freedom Tell of Fate of Their Allies. GREEK TOWNS DEVASTATED Macedonian Newspapers Want the Entente to Investigate the Bulgars' Cruelties.

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Oct 24, 1918, Thursday

Page 10, 768 words

LONDON, Oct. 23.--The first party of 1,000 British prisoners taken by the Bulgarians and liberated under the peace agreement between that country and the Allies passed through Sofia yesterday en route to Saloniki, according to a dispatch to The Mail from the Bulgarian capital. [ END OF FIRST PARAGRAPH ]

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Read the rest via this link:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.ht....FB6678383609EDE

[Gospodine]

Hey, another Yugo-Aussie shit stirrer like myself.

Welcome aboard good fellow.

[Novi Pazar]

Hey, another Yugo-Aussie shit stirrer like myself.

Welcome aboard good fellow.

G'day mate, i'm not exactly a poo slinger, l like to use me truth talking to do the trick.

Cheers brotha

[Methmatician]

G'day mate, i'm not exactly a poo slinger, l like to use me truth talking to do the trick.

Cheers brotha

How long have you been living in Australia?

[Vojnik]

Novi Pazar, what's this "southern Serbs" stuff? Just call us Macedonians mate.

Macedonians from Vardar Macedonia have been heavily Serb influeneced during the past 100 years, basically starting from the Serbian occupation of Vardar Mavedonia. That is why you would see Macedonian surnames with a Serbo-Croat vibe. I have some personal information about my own family name going back around 1912 that I have mentioned on this forum before. My original surname (however not in use anymore) was Filipov, but once the kingdom of Yugoslavia took power over Vardar Macedonia, Macedonians were forced to change their surnames to something more Serbian sounding, therefore, from Filipov came Filipovic. I know this because that is the surname engraved on the tombstone of my great great grandfather (bog da go prosti).

Anyway, it is well documented that Serbs have heavily influenced Macedonia through the years. Because of that, it is impossible to have no traces of Serbian influences in today's Macedonians, escpecially up in the northern most regions of Macedonia.

[Novi Pazar]

Novi Pazar, what's this "southern Serbs" stuff? Just call us Macedonians mate.

I have been saying Southern Serbs (Macedonians).

"Macedonians from Vardar Macedonia have been heavily Serb influeneced during the past 100 years, basically starting from the Serbian occupation of Vardar Mavedonia. That is why you would see Macedonian surnames with a Serbo-Croat vibe. I have some personal information about my own family name going back around 1912 that I have mentioned on this forum before. My original surname (however not in use anymore) was Filipov, but once the kingdom of Yugoslavia took power over Vardar Macedonia, Macedonians were forced to change their surnames to something more Serbian sounding, therefore, from Filipov came Filipovic. I know this because that is the surname engraved on the tombstone of my great great grandfather (bog da go prosti)."

Thats not exactly true, there have been people with names as such prior to 1912, just check petitions. I advise you to look up the document "Serbian colony of Thessalonica" and you will see the absolute opposite to what you just had said!

Anyway, it is well documented that Serbs have heavily influenced Macedonia through the years. Because of that, it is impossible to have no traces of Serbian influences in today's Macedonians, escpecially up in the northern most regions of Macedonia.

Sure, the Macedonians share a culture to the mountain peoples of Kosovo and Old Serbia (Kosovo). Just to let you know, in the ancient times, the Macedonians (Southern Serbs, sorry) would only visit Serbian monastries in Old Serbia and Northern Greece, i.e, Hilandar, they never knew of the Bulgarian *Zoograf*. Not only this, there is much more, in Macedonia one can find SERBIAN toponyms like Srbinovo or Srbice etc....Serbian influence is not 100 years only after 1912, Serbian settlement of the region was KNOWN. There were multiple times of Serbs being relocated from Vardar Macedonia off to Asia Minor and Syria. Man l could go on and on.....

[Vojnik]

I am not denying Serbianization of Macedonia before 1912. I am just saying that after 1912 it hit it's peak. The majority of Macedonian surnames before the Serbian occupation of Macedonia were ending in 'ov' or 'ev', where names ending in 'ic' were recently imposed.

I see toponyms begging with 'srb' as simply Slavic toponyms. That does not prove that we are Southern Serbs. Can you find me a source of a Macedonian identifying as a southern Serb before 1912? Macedonians have never identified as such.

Our Neighbors just love us so much that they all try claim us as theirs. lol

[Archduke]

Novi Pazar, read the book "Black Hand Over Europe" from Henri Pozzi. :)

[morski]

Torlak dialects = Analytical Balkano-Slavic aka Bulgarian. GTFO noob!

[Bugarash]

Macedonia-80 years of serboslavian occupation

whats there more to speak of?

[Gospodine]

Torlak dialects = Analytical Balkano-Slavic aka Bulgarian. GTFO noob!

I thought Torlaks are basically intermediary between Bulgarians, Macos and Serbs?

[Crn Volk]

I thought Torlaks are basically intermediary between Bulgarians, Macos and Serbs?

Yes, that's correct. Those is Serbia identify as Serbs, those in Macedonia, as Macedonians and those in Bulgaria as Bulgarians.

[Bugarash]

Yes, that's correct. Those is Serbia identify as Serbs, those in Macedonia, as Macedonians and those in Bulgaria as Bulgarians.

But in reality all of them are just bulgarians.

[Crn Volk]

Macedonia-80 years of serboslavian occupation

whats there more to speak of?

100 years of Bulgar occupation of Pirin Macedonia has had a more severe impact on the Macedonian population there....:coffee:

[Bugarash]

100 years of Bulgar occupation of Pirin Macedonia has had a more severe impact on the Macedonian population there....:coffee:

The population in the Pirin region is bulgarian.
While the population of the serbian occupied Vardar Macedonia wasn't serbian.

try to make a difference:thumbs up

[Crn Volk]

The population in the Pirin region is bulgarian.
While the population of the serbian occupied Vardar Macedonia wasn't serbian.

try to make a difference:thumbs up

The population is Macedonian in both.

[Mordid]

you balkanoids are hilarious

[morski]

I thought Torlaks are basically intermediary between Bulgarians, Macos and Serbs?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42261
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42676

[Bugarash]

The population is Macedonian in both.

Only in your sick mind.

I feel sorry for the people of Macedonia leaving in a fake world,believing in things that are true only within Macedonia and not recognized by anybody internationally.

Greece will do you a favor and bring that to an end,hope Bulgaria joins in Greece on that matter and blocks all of your integration processes.

These propagandist views are unacceptable.

[Gospodine]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42261
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42676

Lol, unfortunately I can't read Cyrillic bro. Thanks for the links though.

[Novi Pazar]

Man this is so hilarious, l cannot believe how the Bulgars are that warped. To some of you here, explain to me, WHY DOES OLD CHURCH SLAVONIC HAVE A SLAVIC DECLENSIONAL SYSTEM LIKE MODERN SERBIAN WHILST MODERN BULGARIAN DOESN'T.

Honestly, according to typical mainstream logic if we were to connect dialects (evolved forms) today to ethnicity, then the speakers of Old Chruch Slavonic ARE SERBS because basically the languages are structurally the same, whilst Bulgarian is structurally Romanian or Vlach?

People think, use your brains, was Serbian in 2012 the same language as Serbian back in 550AD, no! Was Bulgarian the same language as today, no! Is the language of the German Serbs (Sorbs) the same as it was in 550AD, no, in actual FACT its closer to modern POLISH.

PS Use migration and settlements + culture to determine who are related to whom, not language! Language changes, evolves and modifies due to LOCATION.

[Crn Volk]

Man this is so hilarious, l cannot believe how the Bulgars are that warped. To some of you here, explain to me, WHY DOES OLD CHURCH SLAVONIC HAVE A SLAVIC DECLENSIONAL SYSTEM LIKE MODERN SERBIAN WHILST MODERN BULGARIAN DOESN'T.

Honestly, according to typical mainstream logic if we were to connect dialects (evolved forms) today to ethnicity, then the speakers of Old Chruch Slavonic ARE SERBS because basically the languages are structurally the same, whilst Bulgarian is structurally Romanian or Vlach?

People think, use your brains, was Serbian in 2012 the same language as Serbian back in 550AD, no! Was Bulgarian the same language as today, no! Is the language of the German Serbs (Sorbs) the same as it was in 550AD, no, in actual FACT its closer to modern POLISH.

PS Use migration and settlements + culture to determine who are related to whom, not language! Language changes, evolves and modifies due to LOCATION.

The Bulgar language in 550AD was Turkic

[Guapo]

The Bulgar language in 2012AD is Serbian with a speech impediment

fixed

[ioan assen]

Said the Serboi whose first book and alphabeth was Bulgarian! So much IRONY!!!

[Crn Volk]

Said the Serboi whose first book and alphabeth was Bulgarian! So much IRONY!!!

Slavic Bulgarian or Turkic Bulgarian?

[Novi Pazar]

The Bulgar language in 550AD was Turkic

Brate Sokol, that is what we call OLD BULGARIAN language, its the language of the Turks!

You know my friend, prior to the mistake of calling Old Church Slavonic as Old Church Bulgarian, it was simply known as Old Church Slovenian. This Bulgarian term replaced Slovenian because travellors who came into occupied Macedonia were VOID of the historical circumstance at the time and simply without researching or questioning it, they just called it Bulgarian BLINDLY!

[ioan assen]

Slavic Bulgarian or Turkic Bulgarian?
The preslavic language in Bulgaria is called Bulgar. Very clever...NOT. BulgarIAN has always been slavic language: you should know best, you used this language till the 40ties.

[ioan assen]

Brate Sokol, that is what we call OLD BULGARIAN language, its the language of the Turks!!
Brate? You can even call him Macedonian yet he is your "brother", Because he is Southern Serboi I guess.




You know my friend, prior to the mistake of calling Old Church Slavonic as Old Church Bulgarian, it was simply known as Old Church Slovenian. This Bulgarian term replaced Slovenian because travellors who came into occupied Macedonia were VOID of the historical circumstance at the time and simply without researching or questioning it, they just called it Bulgarian BLINDLY!
Yet to this days after centuries of technologies and after world reknown linguists spent years in here studying the languages they are of ONE oppinion: the direct descedant of OCS is Bulgarian and Macedonian, not the language of the Serboi!

[Novi Pazar]

^ Why is Old Church Slavonic structurally the same as modern Serbian whilst its completely different to Bulgarian. If i'm to use SIMPLISTIC Bulgarian method that connects dialects to people then the speakers of OCS are Serbs and Macedonians are BULGARIANISED SERBS?

You Bulgars are a contradicting mob, really sad!

[MegaArgus1]

Sorry guys, l'm not going to flood the forum, l just want to add further to the Male first name SRBIN.

How do you explain surnames like Srbinovski, Milosavlevski, Stanisavevski Dobrivoyeski, Yovanovski (not: Ivanovski), Kneževski (not: Knezovski), Stanoykovski, Đorđevski (not: Georgievski), Kraljevski (not:Kralevski), Dimitriyevski (not: Dimitrovski), Stanoykovski (not: Stankovski), Vukadinovski (not: Volkadinovski), Vučkovski (not: Volčevski)............and many others............

This are only names with specific Serbian roots, unknown in Bulgarian or with different form.Demonstrating the Serbian character of the bearers of a surname that has root present both in Bulgaria and Serbia, i.e Živkovski, Arsovski, Nikolovski, Petrovski, Stankovski etc. is not possible based solely on them.

The surnames are similar showing interconnections of Macedonians Serbians and Bulgarians not “roots” to a particular one. If you anyway trace the “roots” you will find them deeply in the Macedonian soil.