Kosovo-positive or negative?

[Hurrem sultana]

Please tell us your opinions? do you think the existence of Kosovo is positive or negative for Europe,World,society?

[Archduke]

Positive, bcs 2 million people were saved from foreign rule.

[Ushtari]

Bosnian your vote dosnt cunt so pls remove it

[Methmatician]

Negative: because it has disrupted the order of things.

[Su]

Well generally speaking I like Bosnia as well as Kosova. So I voted for positive.

[Ushtari]

Negative: because it has disrupted the order of things.
Its teh contrary, order is now restored due to it being independent, while before that it was chaos.

[Loki]

It was an absolute necessity to stop the slaughtering.

[Dengizik]

Positive.

[iNird]

Someone mad about the other thread about Bazznia.

:laugh:

[Hurrem sultana]

Someone mad about the other thread about Bazznia.

:laugh:

It is dangerous for Europe to have an islamic majority country i think :coffee:

[iNird]

It is dangerous for Europe to have an islamic majority country i think :coffee:

Well Islamist like you are definitely dangerous.

[Loki]

Well Islamist like you are definitely dangerous.

You mean, evil ones disguised as feminist Scandinavians? ;)

[Archduke]

It is dangerous for Europe to have an islamic majority country i think :coffee:

Divide BiH between Croatia and Serbia then. :coffee:

[iNird]

You mean, evil ones disguised as feminist Scandinavians? ;)

Well a skirt wearing feminist Scandinavian that pretends to be Islamic to suck up to the Turks on this forum.

:bored:

[Hurrem sultana]

Well skirt wearing feminist Scandinavians that pretend to be Islamic to suck up to the Turks on this forum.

:bored:

Lol this one was great..maaan:D turks here are worse than albanians here when it comes to islam ;) (except for few)

[Hurrem sultana]

Anyway,creation of Kosovo has not contributed to stabilty in the region.What do you think the solution is? ;)

[Ushtari]

Turkish girls are hawt and can dance, unlike Bosnian

_4oFG18tzZs

[iNird]

Lol this one was great..maaan:D turks here are worse than albanians here when it comes to islam ;) (except for few)

Right. You have become brainwashed by Onur's bullshit views that Turkey is a completely non-Muslim secular state.

You show me a Christian Turk and I'll show you a Christian Bosniak.

:bored:

Secondly even the statistics Onur posted showed that 50% of Turks fast during Ramadan and roughly 1/3 of them regularly pray and practice their religion.

Nice try Bazznian.

[Hurrem sultana]

Right. You have become brainwashed by Onur's bullshit views that Turkey is a completely non-Muslim secular state.

You show me a Christian Turk and I'll show you a Christian Bosniak.

:bored:

Well i had a turkish priest on facebook.He was an evangelical,,and usging by the pictures,many turks seem to have converted to the evangelical church:eek:

[~Nik~]

It was an absolute necessity to stop the slaughtering.

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2012/31/1344081657-3695798-80bcec432cad8aa6552ef4ce6b93ed2d.gif

It was an absolute necessity to reinforce the NATO presence in the region.

[Methmatician]

_4oFG18tzZs

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WMzUfGx6f7k/TljGqeDfYUI/AAAAAAAAGqE/hDgNRUWZ7sY/s1600/ColinGIF.gif

[iNird]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WMzUfGx6f7k/TljGqeDfYUI/AAAAAAAAGqE/hDgNRUWZ7sY/s1600/ColinGIF.gif

Medvjed you probably dance like some wannabe Anglo-Australian. Don't be jealous. Those turks got moves!

[Methmatician]

You show me a Christian Turk and I'll show you a Christian Bosniak.

Here's one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antun_Kne%C5%BEevi%C4%87).

[Methmatician]

Medvjed you probably dance like some wannabe Anglo-Australian. Don't be jealous. Those turks got moves!

I don't dance. At all. EVER.

[iNird]

Well i had a turkish priest on facebook.He was an evangelical,,and usging by the pictures,many turks seem to have converted to the evangelical church:eek:



Secondly even the statistics Onur posted showed that 50% of Turks fast during Ramadan and roughly 1/3 of them regularly pray and practice their religion.

Nice try Bazznian.

:bored:

[Loki]

Well i had a turkish priest on facebook.He was an evangelical,,and usging by the pictures,many turks seem to have converted to the evangelical church:eek:

They probably remember their roots - some of the earliest Christian communities were in Asia Minor. No surprise.

[iNird]

I don't dance. At all. EVER.

You should keep it that way since Anglos can't dance.

[Hurrem sultana]

Kosovo also does not give any rights to its minorities

[Partizan]

Negative.I can never stand for NATO&UN backed seperatists!

[Partizan]

Well i had a turkish priest on facebook.He was an evangelical,,and usging by the pictures,many turks seem to have converted to the evangelical church:eek:

Well,even unreligious Turks are cultural Muslims.My dad(an atheist) even goes to mosque with his dad in "bayram"s.Not because of he believes in it but it's a cultural thing.

[iNird]

Kosovo also does not give any rights to its minorities

They have rights now. But once Kosovo joins Albania they will have no rights.

:thumbs:

[Hurrem sultana]

They have rights now. But once Kosovo joins Albania they will have no rights.

:thumbs:


Dream on about Albania :thumb001:

And no rights for them,i have been reading about the situations for bosniaks,turks there

[iNird]

Dream on:thumb001:

Kosovo 90%+ Albanian

Bosnia Under 50% Bosniak

Which one do you think will end up like a failed state?

[safinator]

Dream on about Albania :thumb001:

And no rights for them,i have been reading about the situations for bosniaks,turks there
Lulz, turks have even a recognized language. Bosniaks are maybe one hundred?

[Hurrem sultana]

And no rights for them,i have been reading about the situations for bosniaks,turks there

We are discussing Kosovo,not Bosnia

[iNird]

Negative.I can never stand for NATO&UN backed seperatists!

The whole Balkans has been run by external forces. You think Croatia, Macedonia and Bosnia got their independence on their own?

If it wasn't for the UN and other external forces there probably wouldn't even be a Macedonia today.

:bored:

[iNird]

And no rights for them,i have been reading about the situations for bosniaks,turks there

We are discussing Kosovo,not Bosnia

Well institutions are set up in place for minorities, that's more than we can say for most Balkan countries. Whether the institutions work in practice is another story. I believe Turkish is recognized as an official language in some areas and they have political parties, news channels, schools etc. Not sure about Bosniaks? I believe the largest Slavic Muslim group are the Gorani in Southern Kosovo? These people identify with Macedonians more.

Let us assume for arguments sake there are 100k Bosniaks in Kosovo, that's 100k Bosniaks amongst a state of 1.5-2 million. What kind of minority rights do you think they should have?

Funny Bosniak. Anytime she sees a Slavic Muslim she lays claims they are Bosnian.

[Hurrem sultana]

Bosnian is also recognized,or at least they have news in Bosnian,,but that is how far it goes,that doesn not make it "great" in Kosovo

and how about the serbian minority?

[iNird]

Bosnian is also recognized,or at least they have news in Bosnian,,but that is how far it goes,that doesn not make it "great" in Kosovo

and how about the serbian minority?

Serbs prefer not to participate in the state and prefer to run their own parallel institutions.

[iNird]

Negative.I can never stand for NATO&UN backed seperatists!

Funny how Bosnian thanked this post. Where would Bosnia be without Nato and UN?

:bored:

[Partizan]

The whole Balkans has been run by external forces. You think Croatia, Macedonia and Bosnia got their independence on their own?

If it wasn't for the UN and other external forces there probably wouldn't even be a Macedonia today.

:bored:

As a great fan of Tito,separation of Yugoslavia was already a shame for me.

However,most of Kosovar Albanians love the USA.For instance,most Bosnians aren't that Americanophile.

[Methmatician]

Kosovo 90%+ Albanian

Bosnia Under 50% Bosniak

Which one do you think will end up like a failed state?

All countries recognise Bosnia and Herzegovina as a sovereign state.

45% of the world recognises Kosovo as a state.

Which one do you think is already a failed state? (Hint: it's a trick question; Kosovo isn't a state)

[Su]

Turkish girls are hawt and can dance, unlike Bosnian

_4oFG18tzZs


It's so difficult to dance like that just check their feet, the way how they move them.

[Hurrem sultana]

However,most of Kosovar Albanians love the USA.For instance,most Bosnians aren't that Americanophile.

They have no pride really,making statues of Clinton and all...so unter mensch

[Mraz]

Negative, they should stop being independant and merge with Albania.

[~Nik~]

Serbs prefer not to participate in the state and prefer to run their own parallel institutions.

It is perhaps asking too much to these new serbian hobos who offered their homes on behalf of World Peace.

[Sultan Suleiman]

They have no pride really,making statues of Clinton and all...so unter mensch

Što su te sad Albići raspizdili?

[Loki]

Kosovo also does not give any rights to its minorities

What rights are you talking about specifically?

[iNird]

As a great fan of Tito,separation of Yugoslavia was already a shame for me.

However,most of Kosovar Albanians love the USA.For instance,most Bosnians aren't that Americanophile.

Separation was inevitable. Anyways Kosovars appreciate America for their help. Whether Bosniaks are as Americanophile (da fuq kind of word is this) hold no relevance. It would be like me claiming Bosniaks are more Wahabbist or something and being Wahabbistophile because of the help Wahhabis provided for the Bosniaks . Fact remains Bosnia is a creation of Western powers just as Kosovo is.

:bored:


All countries recognise Bosnia and Herzegovina as a sovereign state.

45% of the world recognises Kosovo as a state.

Which one do you think is already a failed state? (Hint: it's a trick question; Kosovo isn't a state)

Again in the short term yes, but in the long run Bosnia will likely face more issues. Good luck having a state with three different groups that hate each other. Kosovo declared indepedence 4 years ago it will take time to get more recognition.

[Methmatician]

Again in the short term yes, but in the long run Bosnia will likely face more issues. Good luck having a state with three different groups that hate each other. Kosovo declared indepedence 4 years ago it will take time to get more recognition.

We can't all ethnically cleanse our country :rolleyes: Some of us have to cooperate with minorities.

[iNird]

We can't all ethnically cleanse our country :rolleyes: Some of us have to cooperate with minorities.

Ethnically cleanse? Such loose terms you use . Kosovo has been an Albanian majority even before the war.

:bored:

Anyways I'm outta this thread. Kosovo is independent and will join Albania in the future. Butthurt Bosniaks are butthurt.

:bored:

[Hurrem sultana]

Anyways I'm outta this thread. Kosovo is independent and will join Albania in the future

Said iNird and went back to sleep

Anyway,many Kosovars like their indeopende,and with time then number will be even greater..so in future,you will have among albanians those who oppose to be under Tirana ;)

[~Nik~]

Said iNird and went back to sleep

Anyway,many Kosovars like their indeopende,and with time then number will be even greater..so in future,you will have among albanians those who oppose to be under Tirana ;)

I think you are not aware of the amount of mischief that can produce a good Shqiptar.

[Hurrem sultana]

I think you are not aware of the amount of mischief that can produce a good Shqiptar.

No i know they also have their divides "we and them",just that they deny it here on this forum

I know for a fact that in 50 years a great big part of kosovars will reject that idea

just like serbs in RS would if they would get independence,,they only talk about joining Serbia now,you would see them if they become a country after 10-20 years

[Partizan]

Separation was inevitable. Anyways Kosovars appreciate America for their help. Whether Bosniaks are as Americanophile (da fuq kind of word is this) hold no relevance. It would be like me claiming Bosniaks are more Wahabbist or something and being Wahabbistophile because of the help Wahhabis provided for the Bosniaks . Fact remains Bosnia is a creation of Western powers just as Kosovo is.

:bored:

Well,there were states of Bosnia,Croatia and Serbia even in medieval.However,Kosovo had always been a part of Serbia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo

As you can see,Serbs were majority until 19.th century.In Wikipedia it says it's because of migrations but that's not the only reason.Ottomans also settled Albanians from neighbouring lands to Kosovo.It's just like how Russian Tsardom demographically supported Armenians in Caucasus(Leave Karabagh alone,even Yerevan was capitol of a Turkic/Azeri Khaganete)

[Minesweeper]

Mafia para state without any significant degree of independence.

That should be negative, right?

[~Nik~]

I know for a fact that in 50 years a great big part of kosovars will reject that idea

Who knows, in 50 years the world white population will pass from 15% to 10% as it would appear.

[Grizzly]

Dream on about Albania :thumb001:

And no rights for them,i have been reading about the situations for bosniaks,turks there

Bosniaks? Lulz so any Balkan Muslim can pass as a Bosniak then?

[Gospodine]

Albos will hate me for this but anyway...

Bottom line: Tito de-Serbianized Kosovo beginning in the 1950's and encouraged the immigration of hundreds of thousands of Albanians.

You can look at demographic censuses from prior to 1950 that show Kosovo as being roughly 50/50 Serbian and Albanian.

Travelers from the 18th century in Kosovo remarked on how well the Serbs and Albanians got along.

The modern animosity and ethnic hatred between the two is a recent phenomenon STRONGLY fomented by the Austro-Hungarians and the West.
There's a reason why the Albanian flag features an Eagle taken ad verbatim from the Hapsburg flag, it's no mere coincidence.

Their "ethnic awakening" was strongly supported by the great powers of Western Europe in the years before and after WWI who saw great value in have a divided and disunited Balkans; which is why Tito immediately sought to unite as much of the Balkans as he possibly could post-WW2. (Even Bulgaria was in talks to be part of Yugoslavia)

Tito's "de-Serbianization" of Kosovo was part of his strategy of preventing overwhelming regional majorities from dominating sensitive areas; he applied to same methods to Bosnia and Eastern Croatia.

It was a smart move at the time because Tito had no idea that 50 years later America would destroy his country and covertly support nationalist movements that would tear the Balkans apart.

The Albanian posters on here fail to realise that they weren't given Kosovan Independence because Bill Clinton researched the last 1000 years of Serbian and Albanian history and went "You know what, according to so and so source from the 11th century, it was really Albanian land all along."

Kosovo was made independent because of Anglo-American plans to fracture the Balkans and sell it off piece by piece to the highest bidder. I.e. "Balkanization".

Privatization has destroyed whatever economies the Former Yugoslav states once had.

Kosovo is a micro-state that will never amount to anything, and has no regional influence or power.

It's the West's middle finger at Serbia and the Yugoslav ideal of unity to ward off against foreign intrusion.

[~Nik~]

It's the West's middle finger at Serbia and the Yugoslav ideal of unity to ward off against foreign intrusion.

However, this ideal of unity was certainly not born with Tito the Dictator and secret agent by profession. He would rather have instrumentalized its death.

[rashka]

Negative all the way and even more than that.

[Gospodine]

Which one do you think will end up like a failed state?

What do you mean end up? Kosovo has never been a state to begin with.

Bosnia:

Human Developement Index: 74
Democracy Index: 95
Press Freedom Index: 58
Corruption Index: 91
WHO Healthcare Ranking: 90

Kosovo:

Human Developement Index: Not even on the list but according to HDI points, about the same as Sri Lanka
Democracy Index: Not even on the list but according to points score the lowest in Europe, even below Russia
Press Freedom Index: 186
Corruption Index: 112
WHO Healthcare Ranking: Doesn't qualify for ranking. Kosovo spends the equivalent of 12 cents of its budget (Euros) per person on healthcare.
http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2008/11/28/feature-01

Bosnia's no picnic but it's a fuck-tonne better than Kosovo will ever be, even though we suffered more destruction and casualties.

[Midori]

You should've added an option: ''I don't care''

[Lena]

Kososo is part of Serbia and as such, of course my opinion IS and will be only positive...however, in the context of the question which implies that Kosovo is separate Narnia land or what ever, I must cast a negative vote. They were unproductive members of YU society and unproductive on their own, very few can beat that. Supporting iredentism leads to further destabilization of the region.
Enjoy.

[Prengs]

How ridiculous are some Bosnaks that thinks negative, Bosnia was same situation as Kosovo not say more worse than Kosovo because you have experienced more massacres and brutality from the same aggressors that you've experienced before 2 years from Kosovo situation, what hypocrisy. :picard1: Maybe you like the Serbian nostalgia especially during 1992-1995.

[Drawing-slim]

Negative: because it has disrupted the order of things.

Has disrupted your raping and horror fantasies? So now that no one is getting systematically raped and killed life is boring for you?
And you're from bosnia?!

As god is my witness i've had watery eyes and felt unforgetable rage the very first time i seen videos of sebrenica killing on youtube.
For your people, bastard.

[Albion]

Negative.


We don't need any more Muslim states in Europe
It is essentially a Albanian state for Albanians despite all that bullcrap about being multi-ethnic.

[rashka]

Maybe you like the Serbian nostalgia especially during 1992-1995.

But no one likes Albanians, except for a couple who thanked your post. :coffee:

[Drawing-slim]

How ridiculous are some Bosnaks that thinks negative, Bosnia was same situation as Kosovo not say more worse than Kosovo because you have experienced more massacres and brutality from the same aggressors that you've experienced before 2 years from Kosovo situation, what hypocrisy. :picard1: Maybe you like the Serbian nostalgia especially during 1992-1995.

I didnt even read this before i posted mine. But yeah, its a shame. Any bosnianks that would even think such thing as negative even as a joke, should be bitched slaped and thrown off a cliff.

[rashka]

Any bosnianks that would even think such thing as negative even as a joke, should be bitched slaped and thrown off a cliff.

See my point, people? Aggressive like ... :icon_sad:

[Prengs]

But no one likes Albanians, except for a couple who thanked your post. :coffee:

Was not enough distancing of Slovenians, Croats, Macedonians, Bosnaks, Albanians and Montengrins?, even Hungarians (Vojvodina) wants to divided from you.

[Drawing-slim]

Negative.


We don't need any more Muslim states in Europe
It is essentially a Albanian state for Albanians despite all that bullcrap about being multi-ethnic.


Why would you say that albion?! Any intellegent person from europe that would disagree with kosovo independence from serbia is borderline evil.

I feel the need to tell this since i've respect for you.
Its not about religion, please don't fall in the cotegory of some internet evil trolls that deserve to have their family raped and killed just to learn a lesson in this.

[rashka]

Why would you say that albion?! Any intellegent person from europe that would disagree with kosovo independence from serbia is borderline evil.

I feel the need to tell this since i've respect for you.
Its not about religion, please don't fall in the cotegory of some internet evil trolls that deserve to have their family raped and killed just to learn a lesson in this.

I am sure the same people are thanking you for this yet again respectable post, since you have so much respect for people and they love you for that.

[~Nik~]

See my point, people? Aggressive like ...

I don't like much this game of presentability to UN officials. Let them to go screw themselves.

[Gospodine]

As god is my witness i've had watery and felt unforgetable rage the very first time i seen videos of sebrenica killing on youtube.
For your people, bastard.

Are you alright?

I've lost family members. You don't see me going around with the sympathy card like some Jewish Zionist, and using it to justify reshaping Europe to my liking as well as making ordinary people feel collectively guilty for the actions of some general they'd never heard of before 1995.

Bosnia's independence story is nothing like yours.

America did your fighting and bidding for you.

[Partizan]

How ridiculous are some Bosnaks that thinks negative, Bosnia was same situation as Kosovo not say more worse than Kosovo because you have experienced more massacres and brutality from the same aggressors that you've experienced before 2 years from Kosovo situation, what hypocrisy. :picard1: Maybe you like the Serbian nostalgia especially during 1992-1995.

I think Bosnians understood that,this Western supported seperatism doesn't bring anything.I know many Yugoslavians miss the good times of Tito's Yugoslavia.

BTW it is more ridicilous,Turks support Kosovo's independence.What Albanians did isn't different than what Kurds want to do!

[Sultan Suleiman]

Has disrupted your raping and horror fantasies? So now that no one is getting systematically raped and killed life is boring for you?
And you're from bosnia?!

As god is my witness i've had watery eyes and felt unforgetable rage the very first time i seen videos of sebrenica killing on youtube.
For your people, bastard.

He is a Dingoo Ausie of Bosniak roots :D

[Han Cholo]

Kosovo is unnecessary. It should be annexed to Albania. I support kicking Serbs out of Kosova and driven out of their homes because they pissed off the Albanian majority and have to pay; but turning into a NATO puppet and USA satellite was a wrong way.

[kabeiros]

NATO-puppet state with Muslim majority can't be a good thing for the Balkans

[~Nik~]

Why would you say that albion?! Any intellegent person from europe that would disagree with kosovo independence from serbia is borderline evil.

:clap2:

[Sultan Suleiman]

I think Bosnians understood that,this Western supported seperatism doesn't bring anything.I know many Yugoslavians miss the good times of Tito's Yugoslavia.

BTW it is more ridicilous,Turks support Kosovo's independence.What Albanians did isn't different than what Kurds want to do!

No I don't miss an ego maniac which ensured suppression of Bosniak identity for 45 years :)

I am pro-union of extremely decentralized Yugoslavia in likes of the EU in the late 80s early 90s.

[Gospodine]

Kosovo is unnecessary. It should be annexed to Albania. I support kicking Serbs out of Kosova and driven out of their homes because they pissed off the Albanian majority and have to pay; but turning into a NATO puppet and USA satellite was a wrong way.

Man... if I have to hear one more Western version of Balkan history... I might just have an aneurysm.

[iNird]

Albos will hate me for this but anyway...

Bottom line: Tito de-Serbianized Kosovo beginning in the 1950's and encouraged the immigration of hundreds of thousands of Albanians.

.

Source for this immigration? If anything there was an exodus of Albanians to Turkey from 1900-1950 or so. I'm sure Kosovo was being de-Serbianized when people like Rankovic was hanging around. In fact, and I will post some sources later, Yugoslavia was putting thier efforts around this period to Turkanized the Albanian population and even Slavicize it.


You can look at demographic censuses from prior to 1950 that show Kosovo as being roughly 50/50 Serbian and Albanian.



It was more than 50/50 split. Since you love Balkan Wiki/e-historian love wiki so much:


British journalist H. Brailsford estimated in 1906[33] that two-thirds of the population of Kosovo was Albanian and one-third Serbian.



The 1921 Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes population census for the territories comprising modern day Kosovo listed 439,010 inhabitants:

By religion:

Muslims: 329,502 (75.1%)
Orthodox Serb: 93,203 (21.2%)
Roman Catholics: 15,785 (3.6%)
Jews: 427
Greek Catholics: 26

By native language:

Albanian: 288,907 (65.8%)
Serbian or Croatian: 114,095 (26.0%)
Turkish: 27,915 (6.4%)
Romanian-Cincarian: 402
Slovene: 184
German: 30
Hungarian: 12




There's a reason why the Albanian flag features an Eagle taken ad verbatim from the Hapsburg flag, it's no mere coincidence.

WTF? The double-headed eagle was the coat of arms of Skenderbeg. Tere are other groups that use the double eagle as well that predate teh Hapsburg emprie


The Albanian posters on here fail to realise that they weren't given Kosovan Independence because Bill Clinton researched the last 1000 years of Serbian and Albanian history and went "You know what, according to so and so source from the 11th century, it was really Albanian land all along."

Holy shit? So much wrong with this statement. America helps out country out of interest for one, but the reason that was sold to the public was intervention was necessary to stop Serbian aggression, same reason why the West intervined in Bosnia. In fact, people were trying to avoid another Bosnia, thus, the reason intervention was quicker in Kosovo. A bit of a simplification on my part but better than that crap you just wrote.


Kosovo was made independent because of Anglo-American plans to fracture the Balkans and sell it off piece by piece to the highest bidder. I.e. "Balkanization".

If this is your case then this is the same situation that is happening with almost all ex-yu countries not just Kosovo.


Kosovo is a micro-state that will never amount to anything, and has no regional influence or power.


Let us be honest here, none of these Balkan countries have any real power. They all attach themselves to bigger countries or join groups (ie NATO, EU.) Most of these claims against Kosovo are the same claims that can made for most of the Balkan countries.

:coffee:

[~Nik~]

Kosovo is unnecessary. It should be annexed to Albania. I support kicking Serbs out of Kosova and driven out of their homes because they pissed off the Albanian majority and have to pay; but turning into a NATO puppet and USA satellite was a wrong way.

Well, in this case I demand a fair fight, without any foreign intervention this time, we will see who will expel who and how far.

[iNird]

Well, in this case I demand a fair fight, without any foreign intervention this time, we will see who will expel who and how far.

Come and get it internet warrior. This time the Serbian base isn't in Kosovo, Albania is not in the same situation as they were in 97' and those Yugoslav artillery are most likely outdated by now.

:bored:

[~Nik~]

Come and get it internet warrior. This time the Serbian base isn't in Kosovo, Albania is not in the same situation as they were in 97' and those Yugoslav artillery are most likely outdated by now.

:bored:

At least I don't try to justify myself for every bullshit we hear here, we'll see which country has the most internet warriorz when the time comes. :thumb001:

[Gospodine]

If this is your case then this is the same situation that is happening with almost all ex-yu countries not just Kosovo.

No. Shit. Sherlock.

You're perceptive.

What tipped you off? The EU/US yes-men that keep getting votes in uncertified elections, the high unemployment, the mafia making more GDP than the actual economy, the entire generation of young people living at home until they're 40?

[Drawing-slim]

Are you alright?

I've lost family members. You don't see me going around with the sympathy card like some Jewish Zionist, and using it to justify reshaping Europe to my liking as well as making ordinary people feel collectively guilty for the actions of some general they'd never heard of before 1995.

Bosnia's independence story is nothing like yours.

America did your fighting and bidding for you.With this post right here you fit perfectly in the categgory of little people that strive
for obscurity.
Just like a big number of lunatics in this forum that actually dare believe that are being rational and not "emotional", the latest trend of this ugly world.

(we're talking about kosovo here, no need to bring up israel)

Its black and white.
You either want innocent people to be free, or you want them to be killed raped disrespected and have no right to live.

[Gospodine]

America helps out country out of interest for one, but the reason that was sold to the public was intervention was necessary to stop Serbian aggression, same reason why the West intervined in Bosnia. In fact, people were trying to avoid another Bosnia, thus, the reason intervention was quicker in Kosovo. A bit of a simplification on my part but better than that crap you just wrote.

:lmao

"America helps out". There's a perfectly reasonable English sentence.

Have you ever watched a television program called... THE NEWS... in say, the last two decades or so?

Do you have any idea how many self-sustaining, socialist/democratic governments the US overthrew before they disposed of Yugoslavia?

Like Henry Kissinger said: "America doesn't have allies. Only interests."

The naivety in this thread is so thick you could choke a fucking elephant with it.

You guys will wake-up in about 20 or 30 years I estimate.

Iraq, Iran, and Egypt were all at one point in the time, strong American allies and benefactors.

Your lovely future for the micro-republic of Kosovo awaits.

[Han Cholo]

Man... if I have to hear one more Western version of Balkan history... I might just have an aneurysm.

Tell me the hidden conspiracy stories bro.

[Methmatician]

Its black and white.
You either want innocent people to be free, or you want them to be killed raped disrespected and have no right to live.

Kosovo is not black and white, because ever since Kosovo got it's independence the Kosovo government has been discriminating against Roma populations and are treating them the same way Albanians were treated under Milosevic. And if Kosovo didn't gain independence, then Albanians would have probably continued to be discriminated against. Either way, someone else becomes the victim.

[iNird]

:lmao

"America helps out". There's a perfectly reasonable English sentence.

Have you ever watched a television program called... THE NEWS... in say, the last two decades or so?

Do you have any idea how many self-sustaining, socialist/democratic governments the US overthrew before they disposed of Yugoslavia?

Like Henry Kissinger said: "America doesn't have allies. Only interests."

The naivety in this thread is so thick you could choke a fucking elephant with it.

I'm typing on a netbook from the airport so mind the small grammatical and syntax errors. I don't go off making baseless claims like you have for one. I know about the interventions of the United States in places like South America to the Middle East. And I acknowledge that the United States helped Kosovo out of self-interest.

But keep thinking that Bosnia is an unique case and got it's independence by itself. The same with these other Balkan countries that think their shit smells better.

:bored:

[Drawing-slim]

Kosovo is not black and white, because ever since Kosovo got it's independence the Kosovo government has been discriminating against Roma populations and are treating them the same way Albanians were treated under Milosevic. And if Kosovo didn't gain independence, then Albanians would have probably continued to be discriminated against. Either way, someone else becomes the victim.

Its simply not true. Kosovo goverement its not opressing the roma, but some individuals amingst albanians, and with a morally good reason you can argue.
All gypsies worked for serbs, rooting for serbs during the killings of albanians

Just take a look at our member here I.M! posing with chetnic outfits and openly rooting for serbs.

[~Nik~]

With this post right here you fit perfectly in the categgory of little people that strive
for obscurity.
Just like a big number of lunatics in this forum that actually dare believe that are being rational and not "emotional", the latest trend of this ugly world.

(we're talking about kosovo here, no need to bring up israel)

Its black and white.
You either want innocent people to be free, or you want them to be killed raped disrespected and have no right to live.

Kosovars have achieved what Palestinians have failed. Allah Wakbar.

[iNird]

Kosovo is not black and white, because ever since Kosovo got it's independence the Kosovo government has been discriminating against Roma populations and are treating them the same way Albanians were treated under Milosevic. And if Kosovo didn't gain independence, then Albanians would have probably continued to be discriminated against. Either way, someone else becomes the victim.

Again Kosovo is not an isolated case with Roma discrimination. This problem exists in all Balkan countries. Even in Western Europe there is discrimination against Roma people.

[Sultan Suleiman]

that think their shit smells better.


Son my shit DOES smell better thanks to the herbal diet :D

[Sultan Suleiman]

Kosovars have achieved what Palestinians have failed. Allah Wakbar.

I always thought Albos as Israel and us Slavs as the "sea of Arabs" :D

[Gospodine]

But keep thinking that Bosnia is an unique state and got it's independence by itself. The same with these other Balkan countries that think their shit smells better.

Absolutely not.

We only got our independence because we voted the right way in accordance with the 1991 Foreign Operations Appropriations Law 101-513:


One provision in particular was so lethal that even a CIA report described three weeks later in the Nov. 27, 1990, New York Times predicted it would lead to a bloody civil war.


A section of Law 101-513 suddenly and without previous warning cut off all aid, trade, credits and loans from the U.S. to Yugoslavia within six months. It also ordered separate elections in each of the six republics that make up Yugoslavia, requiring State Department approval of election procedures and results before aid to the separate republics would be resumed. The legislation further required U.S. personnel in all international financial institutions such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund to enforce this cut-off policy for all credits and loans.
http://www.iacenter.org/bosnia/origins.htm

The US decided who came to power in the Former Yugoslavia by blackmailing the states with further sanctions/embargoes/economic deprivation for any former Yugoslav state who elected anything other hard-core nationalist, right-wing parties; we elected America's main man, Izetbegovic, an ultra-nationalist with a pan-Islamist history, the perfect conduit to channel a radicalization of Bosnia.

No state could afford not to comply with a massive war and population displacement looming.

The US spent close to $77.2 million funding opposition nationalist elements in Former Yugoslavia up to the 2000:
http://www.iacenter.org/bosnia/yugo_elect_mem.htm

So you Albos can reassure yourselves with whatever fanciful explanations you care to invent as to why you're America's lapdog in the Balkans.

The hard truth is: you're being used to break-up perfectly good and decently functioning countries (by post-Yugoslav standards) into shitty banana republics designed to brainwash entire generations of people.

[Drawing-slim]

Kosovars have achieved what Palestinians have failed. Allah Wakbar.I am not even talking to you on this.
I know you're here just to fuck around and have some fun trolling. So i've decided to eccept you:D

[~Nik~]

I always thought Albos as Israel and us Slavs as the "sea of Arabs" :D

Are you kidding ? We are clearly the blond Ashkenazim fucked by the brave rocky peoples around because of the lack of american support.

[Partizan]

Kosovars have achieved what Palestinians have failed. Allah Wakbar.

Don't compare Palestinians to Kosovars.

Palestinians are in an anti-imperialist struggle.But Kosovars fought as willing soldiers of Americans.

[Il Principe]

Negative.

It was once the rectum of Yugoslavia, but that was all it was. Nowadays it is a mafia-run "country" and a haven for drug lords, human traffickers, terrorists and god knows what. It is also the source of the Kosovars and gypsies (those two often overlap) that mass migrate and pollute Scandinavia.

[~Nik~]

I am not even talking to you on this.
I know you're here just to fuck around and have some fun trolling. So i've decided to eccept you:D

Ah, I am glad you finally eccepted me. :)

[Ushtari]

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1748/40215461371701014577051.jpg

[~Nik~]

Negative.

It was once the rectum of Yugoslavia, but that was all it was. Nowadays it is a mafia-run "country" and a haven for drug lords, human traffickers, terrorists and god knows what. It is also the source of the Kosovars and gypsies (those two often overlap) that mass migrate and pollute Scandinavia.

In other words: the paradise of freedom on earth. :cool:

[Midori]

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1748/40215461371701014577051.jpg

Yugoslavia =/= Serbia

[Drawing-slim]

I am sure the same people are thanking you for this yet again respectable post, since you have so much respect for people and they love you for that.
I dont care to be thanked, jesus didn't begg for hugs when he preached simplicity and peace:D

[Sultan Suleiman]

Are you kidding ? We are clearly the blond Ashkenazim fucked by the brave rocky peoples around because of the lack of american support.

Oh vey :(






































:D :D

[Gospodine]

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1748/40215461371701014577051.jpg

The clocks go backwards in the Balkans...

Yugoslavia 1991:


Surplus budget.
GDP above $130 billion (nominal not per capita).
External debt equal to two year's worth of exports.
3rd-most powerful military in Europe.
Tito's funeral: the most attended state funeral ever.
Free healthcare, tertiary education.
Wow, my neighbours don't want to kill me and burn my house down.


Kosovo 2012 (could apply to really any of the Former Yugoslav states):


The size of an average Australian backyard.
Major drug-trafficking hub from Turkey to Europe.
Popular with Balkan gangsters of all stripes.
Free organs.
Alternative filming location for the Borat film.
Industry? The road-side stands selling Pepsi and Newspapers Industry is actually booming. Everything else is non-existent.

[Ushtari]

The size of an average Australian backyard.
Major drug-trafficking hub from Turkey to Europe.
Popular with Balkan gangsters of all stripes.
Free organs.
Alternative filming location for the Borat film.
Industry? The road-side stands selling Pepsi and Newspapers Industry is actually booming. Everything else is non-existent.

Only true for the Serbian dominated northern part.

[Drawing-slim]

I always thought Albos as Israel and us Slavs as the "sea of Arabs" :D
we're the creme of the crop as far race in the balkans.
And every balkanas knows that:D

[~Nik~]

Only true for the Serbian dominated northern part.

You just became a parrot, nigga.

[Robert Guiscard]

Negative. It's synonym of persecution of Serbs for me...

[RoadWarrior]

It should be annexed to Albania right away.

[Gospodine]

It was an absolute necessity to stop the slaughtering.

Cool story bro.

So remind me why didn't the international community intervene in Sudan, Rwanda, Cambodia, or Iraq before 1991 when the Iraqi Kurds were being gassed?
Far greater death tolls were exacted in these respective bloodbaths. Those were black and white genocides; no historical ambiguity, no weird territorial issues or tricky ethnic identity problems to resolve.
Just some cartoon bad guy wiping out tens of thousands to millions of people.

It would have made far more sense from a moral and ethical standpoint to intervene there rather than Kosovo.

The reason why the UN sat on it's hands for those genocides is because these countries with the exception of Iraq are not worth the piece of paper they occupy on a map of the world to the US.

Kosovo is important because it is a leverage point over Serbia, which being the direct descendant of Yugoslavia, is meted out special scrutiny by the West for putting up the most resistance to their divide and conquer plans in the Balkans.

How dare they have a functioning, hybrid Planned Economy/Free Market, multi-ethnic state after the fall of Communism that was still working.

How dare Milosevic try and nationalize his industries to protect them from the EU Mafia.

How dare they actually defeat the KLA in a direct military confrontation without NATO intervention.
(The KLA, like the Bosnian Mujahideen was basically a conduit for all sorts of filth to come into the Balkans from terrorists to drug-smugglers to foreign intelligence agents.)

Kosovo sets an extremely dangerous precedent for the future. Any micro-state with a ethnicity majority, that has UN/NATO/US backing can ask for a referendum and break-away now.

This is what the West wants. Vojvodina, Sandzak, RS, Albanian Macedonia, etc... they are all wide open to secessionist movements now.

The Balkanization of the Balkans will never end until literally neighbourhoods are being broken up and walled off like they were in Northern Island during the Troubles and artificial differences exaggerated to the point of no one being willing to cooperate with anyone.


Positive.

So you no doubt support the creation of a Kurdistan then that will take ample chunks from land of Eastern Turkey?

Otherwise... your foot must be hurting now.

[Partizan]

^
Also in Middle East,they mostly care about Kurds since Eastern Turkey and North Iraq have rich reserves...Why nobody cares for Burmese Muslims or Azeri Turks of Iran?

I also agree with you about "Kurdistan" issue...Many Turks support Kosovars for being Muslim.I think many supports them because of their biases against Serbs.I think Turkey must derecognize Kosovo.

Myself,I support independence of some states like Chechenia and Eastern Turkestan but those were once independent states,which were invaded later.Kosovo is totally artificial unlike those.

[Lena]

It should be annexed to Albania right away.

Stvarno? Ae napiši par složenih, treninga radi :D

Znam da niš ti ne kužiš :coffee:

[Azalea]

Negative.

[Hurrem sultana]

Some people like iNird made me change my mind to negative

[RoadWarrior]

Stvarno? Ae napiši par složenih, treninga radi :D

Znam da niš ti ne kužiš :coffee:

You should respect the board rules and write in English,this way you're just showing your level of culture.
Anyway:

Noel Malcolm
The Guardian, Tuesday 26 February 2008
Article history

"Kosovo is Serbia", "Ask any historian" read the unlikely placards, waved by angry Serb demonstrators in Brussels on Sunday. This is rather flattering for historians: we don't often get asked to adjudicate. It does not, however, follow that any historian would agree, not least because historians do not use this sort of eternal present tense.

History, for the Serbs, started in the early 7th century, when they settled in the Balkans. Their power base was outside Kosovo, which they fully conquered in the early 13th, so the claim that Kosovo was the "cradle" of the Serbs is untrue.

What is true is that they ruled Kosovo for about 250 years, until the final Ottoman takeover in the mid-15th century. Churches and monasteries remain from that period, but there is no more continuity between the medieval Serbian state and today's Serbia than there is between the Byzantine Empire and Greece.

Kosovo remained Ottoman territory until it was conquered by Serbian forces in 1912. Serbs would say "liberated"; but even their own estimates put the Orthodox Serb population at less than 25%. The majority population was Albanian, and did not welcome Serb rule, so "conquered" seems the right word.

But legally, Kosovo was not incorporated into the Serbian kingdom in 1912; it remained occupied territory until some time after 1918. Then, finally, it was incorporated, not into a Serbian state, but into a Yugoslav one. And with one big interruption (the second world war) it remained part of some sort of Yugoslav state until June 2006.

Until the destruction of the old federal Yugoslavia by Milosevic, Kosovo had a dual status. It was called a part of Serbia; but it was also called a unit of the federation. In all practical ways, the latter sense prevailed: Kosovo had its own parliament and government, and was directly represented at the federal level, alongside Serbia. It was, in fact, one of the eight units of the federal system.

Almost all the other units have now become independent states. Historically, the independence of Kosovo just completes that process. Therefore, Kosovo has become an ex-Yugoslav state, as any historian could tell you.

· Noel Malcolm is a senior research fellow at All Souls College, Oxford. He is the author of Kosovo: A Short History

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/26/kosovo.serbia

[Lena]

Anyway:



anyways, you don't speak mother lang... or something even worse.

[rashka]

What rights are you talking about specifically?

What she is talking about is that Slavs- beit muslim or christian (would not even call them a minority in their own country) - there's even a small sizable Croatian community, Gypsies, Turks, Egyptian Ashkalis and Jews have no rights and always preferred to live amongst the Serb Slavs rather than amongst the Albanians. They felt much safer and not harassed.

[Prengs]

Kosovo sets an extremely dangerous precedent for the future. Any micro-state with a ethnicity majority, that has UN/NATO/US backing can ask for a referendum and break-away now.

This is what the West wants. Vojvodina, Sandzak, RS, Albanian Macedonia, etc... they are all wide open to secessionist movements now.



What Precedent you are talking?, this "Precedent" started in 1912 when Kosovo was annexed from Serbia and from this period broken peace between Albanians and Serbs. I dont understand why Bosnia must gain independente with Bosnak miniority and not Kosovo with Albanian majority?

In the World, 39% of independent state are more "micro-state" than Kosovo.

Montenegro territorially is same as Kosovo but are far advance compare to Bosnia which have no future.

[Midori]

anyways, you don't speak mother lang... or something even worse.

Orthodox Croat? He was an obvious troll from the start :p

[RoadWarrior]

Orthodox Croat? He was an obvious troll from the start :p

What makes you think so?

[Prengs]

What she is talking about is that Slavs- beit muslim or christian (would not even call them a minority in their own country), Gypsies, Turks, Egyptian Ashkalis and Jews have no rights and always preferred to live amongst the Serb Slavs rather than amongst the Albanians. They felt much safer and not harassed.

Really? then why all those groups support Kosovo independence?, Gypsies, Turks, even Gorans have far rights that never had before 1999.

[Lena]

What makes you think so?

I'm disappointed a lot... ;(

[rashka]

Kosovo is not black and white, because ever since Kosovo got it's independence the Kosovo government has been discriminating against Roma populations and are treating them the same way Albanians were treated under Milosevic. And if Kosovo didn't gain independence, then Albanians would have probably continued to be discriminated against. Either way, someone else becomes the victim.

And why was Milosevic upset? Because of atrocities, discrimination and harassment going on against Serbs on their own land. Albanians had a lot of freedom. That was the problem - give a person an inch and he'll take a foot.

[Partizan]

I think camps are those here:

Pro-Kosovo ones:
a)Serbophobes.
b)People who believe Western media about Balkan issues.
c)People who feel themselves closer to Albanians culturally or religiously.
d)Albanians.

Anti-Kosovo ones:
a)Islamophobes&Albanophobes.
b)Slavic nationalists and Orthodoxes who support Serbia romantically.
c)Rational people against seperatism and against global vampires who are thirsty for innocent peoples' blood.

[kabeiros]

Anti-Kosovo ones:
a)Islamophobes&Albanophobes.
b)Slavic nationalists and Orthodoxes who support Serbia romantically.
c)Rational people against seperatism and against global vampires who are thirsty for innocent peoples' blood.

I'm a, b and c

[Anatolian Eagle]

I think camps are those here:

Pro-Kosovo ones:
a)Serbophobes.
b)People who believe Western media about Balkan issues.
c)People who feel themselves closer to Albanians culturally or religiously.
d)Albanians.

Vast majority of Turks fit in c I believe.

[Partizan]

Vast majority of Turks fit in c I believe.

Yes.However those Turks follow their feelings than their mind IMO.

Same goes to anti-Kosovars in a) and b).I don't think people like Leliana or Pretan give a damn to what imperialism does to the World.Their only problem is "those filthy Muslims are stealing lands of our Christian brothas!!!!!"

[Ushtari]

Albos will hate me for this but anyway...
You should hate yourself for being so stupid.


Bottom line: Tito de-Serbianized Kosovo beginning in the 1950's and encouraged the immigration of hundreds of thousands of Albanians.
It was the contrary, right before that time, a big colonization process took place in Kosovo in wich thousands of Serbs were settled there.



You can look at demographic censuses from prior to 1950 that show Kosovo as being roughly 50/50 Serbian and Albanian.
An overwhelming majority were Albanians at that time.


In the following source you can see that already in beginning of 20th century, Albanians formed a clear majority.
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/700/books22.jpg
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=3fYuy5iUi_sC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Defeat+in+detail:+the+ottoman+army%27&source=bl&ots=zSaXQ-xMHb&sig=8CapkDAyUlkEtDOVfC8RIfB77ls&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PqYdUJTQLYX24QTP5oGoCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Defeat%20in%20detail%3A%20the%20ottoman%20army'&f=false)


Travelers from the 18th century in Kosovo remarked on how well the Serbs and Albanians got along.

Well, the Albanian-Serb hatered started in early 20th century when thousands of Albanians were massacred as well as deported out of Kosovo.

[Grizzly]

Serbs should also be thankful that the Yugoslavs helped install a commie puppet as the leader of Albania(Hoxha).. Without him Kosova could have well become independent and part of Albania during the 1940's and we won't be in this mess at all.

[Grizzly]

Cool story bro.

So remind me why didn't the international community intervene in Sudan, Rwanda, Cambodia, or Iraq before 1991 when the Iraqi Kurds were being gassed?
Far greater death tolls were exacted in these respective bloodbaths. Those were black and white genocides; no historical ambiguity, no weird territorial issues or tricky ethnic identity problems to resolve.
Just some cartoon bad guy wiping out tens of thousands to millions of people.

It would have made far more sense from a moral and ethical standpoint to intervene there rather than Kosovo.

The reason why the UN sat on it's hands for those genocides is because these countries with the exception of Iraq are not worth the piece of paper they occupy on a map of the world to the US.

Kosovo is important because it is a leverage point over Serbia, which being the direct descendant of Yugoslavia, is meted out special scrutiny by the West for putting up the most resistance to their divide and conquer plans in the Balkans.

How dare they have a functioning, hybrid Planned Economy/Free Market, multi-ethnic state after the fall of Communism that was still working.

How dare Milosevic try and nationalize his industries to protect them from the EU Mafia.

How dare they actually defeat the KLA in a direct military confrontation without NATO intervention.
(The KLA, like the Bosnian Mujahideen was basically a conduit for all sorts of filth to come into the Balkans from terrorists to drug-smugglers to foreign intelligence agents.)

Kosovo sets an extremely dangerous precedent for the future. Any micro-state with a ethnicity majority, that has UN/NATO/US backing can ask for a referendum and break-away now.

This is what the West wants. Vojvodina, Sandzak, RS, Albanian Macedonia, etc... they are all wide open to secessionist movements now.

The Balkanization of the Balkans will never end until literally neighbourhoods are being broken up and walled off like they were in Northern Island during the Troubles and artificial differences exaggerated to the point of no one being willing to cooperate with anyone.



So you no doubt support the creation of a Kurdistan then that will take ample chunks from land of Eastern Turkey?

Otherwise... your foot must be hurting now.


You are such a fucking hypocrite.. If that's the case why don't you vouch for Bosnia being a part of Serbia, or Croatia part of Serbia, or Montenegro part of Serbia, etc.. I don't see you talking about Bosnian or Croat independence as a part of US imperialism but only Kosova... Funny how Serbs try to slaughter you like cattle and here you are defending them.

Montenegro declared independence from Serbia despite only having 40% demographics, did that change the scene of international politics?

BTW, America barely has any interests with Serbia. No resources and they aren't a threat to the US. The only thing I can see is for US to flex their muscles against Russia but that's not even worth it.

[~Nik~]

Funny how Serbs try to slaughter you like cattle and here you are defending them.

Funny how some do not still live in the past.

Btw, you are anti-ZOG, you don't like your first king or you're in the ambiguity ? You are against American imperialism but you appreciate what America has done for you ? A bit like Loki who created an anti-NATO group but still supports its actions in Kosovo. It should not be that the Kosova section was created for nothing. :rolleyes:

[Grizzly]

Funny how some do not still live in the past.

Btw, you are anti-ZOG, you don't like your first king or you're in the ambiguity ? You are against American imperialism but you appreciate what America has done for you ? A bit like Loki who created an anti-NATO group but still supports its actions in Kosovo. It should not be that the Kosova section was created for nothing. :rolleyes:


Because Kosova is different. It's a region that's 90% Albanian, being under Serbian rule will only further destabilize the region and a war would have broke out sooner or later.. Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia and Montenegro got their independence, why not Kosova again?

Kosova is a different case than A-stan, Iraq or Libya as they were all sovereign nations in which the US went in for self interests. USA doesn't have any interests in Kosova other than to piss off the Russians.

[~Nik~]

Because Kosova is different. It's a region that's 90% Albanian, being under Serbian rule will only further destabilize the region and a war would have broke out sooner or later.. Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia and Montenegro got their independence, why not Kosova again?

How do you know that a war would occur for sure ? What could predict that the Albanian population of Kosovo would possibly rebel in the future ? I remind you that your nice Liberation Army has also killed ethnic Albanians, because they were in friendly relations with Serbs, why?


Kosova is a different case than A-stan, Iraq or Libya as they were all sovereign nations in which the US went in for self interests. USA doesn't have any interests in Kosova other than to piss off the Russians.

To piss off Russians, sure...:rolleyes:

So comrade, are you capitalist or communist ? Or maybe you prefer to take the best of both ?

[rashka]

Cool story bro.

So remind me why didn't the international community intervene in Sudan, Rwanda, Cambodia, or Iraq before 1991 when the Iraqi Kurds were being gassed?
Far greater death tolls were exacted in these respective bloodbaths. Those were black and white genocides; no historical ambiguity, no weird territorial issues or tricky ethnic identity problems to resolve.
Just some cartoon bad guy wiping out tens of thousands to millions of people.

It would have made far more sense from a moral and ethical standpoint to intervene there rather than Kosovo.

The reason why the UN sat on it's hands for those genocides is because these countries with the exception of Iraq are not worth the piece of paper they occupy on a map of the world to the US.

Kosovo is important because it is a leverage point over Serbia, which being the direct descendant of Yugoslavia, is meted out special scrutiny by the West for putting up the most resistance to their divide and conquer plans in the Balkans.

How dare they have a functioning, hybrid Planned Economy/Free Market, multi-ethnic state after the fall of Communism that was still working.

How dare Milosevic try and nationalize his industries to protect them from the EU Mafia.
How dare they actually defeat the KLA in a direct military confrontation without NATO intervention.
(The KLA, like the Bosnian Mujahideen was basically a conduit for all sorts of filth to come into the Balkans from terrorists to drug-smugglers to foreign intelligence agents.)

Kosovo sets an extremely dangerous precedent for the future. Any micro-state with a ethnicity majority, that has UN/NATO/US backing can ask for a referendum and break-away now.

This is what the West wants. Vojvodina, Sandzak, RS, Albanian Macedonia, etc... they are all wide open to secessionist movements now.

The Balkanization of the Balkans will never end until literally neighbourhoods are being broken up and walled off like they were in Northern Island during the Troubles and artificial differences exaggerated to the point of no one being willing to cooperate with anyone.



So you no doubt support the creation of a Kurdistan then that will take ample chunks from land of Eastern Turkey?

Otherwise... your foot must be hurting now.

You summed it up very well. I guess you meant Northern Ireland?

[rashka]

we're the creme of the crop as far race in the balkans.
And every balkanas knows that:D

No, that is not true. Your crop comes from far away.

[Drawing-slim]

I think camps are those here:

Pro-Kosovo ones:
a)Serbophobes.
b)People who believe Western media about Balkan issues.
c)People who feel themselves closer to Albanians culturally or religiously.
d)Albanians.

Anti-Kosovo ones:
a)Islamophobes&Albanophobes.
b)Slavic nationalists and Orthodoxes who support Serbia romantically.
c)Rational people against seperatism and against global vampires who are thirsty for innocent peoples' blood.Only two camps here:
First group includes: Those who their hearts and minds are in a perfect place, people who have reached the pinnacle hights moraly
spritualy and logicaly...Another words people who strive for clearity

The second group includes, little people who strive for obscurity: people who know the truth very well and know the difference from right and wrong, but still go for serbia wich hell waits them for sure without a single doubt in my mind.
The other part of this group wich is a big majority within the group are total Idiots: and hell awaits them as it should! for being colosal idiots.

[Drawing-slim]

No, that is not true. Your crop comes from far away.

Time wise you're correct. We come from a great distance compare to you little infants next door.

[rashka]

The second group includes, little people who strive for obscurity: people who know the truth very well and know the difference from right and wrong, but still go for serbia wich hell waits them for sure without a single doubt in my mind.
The other part of this group wich is a big majority within the group are total Idiots: and hell awaits them as it should! for being colosal idiots.

...Just like a big number of lunatics in this forum that actually dare believe ...


I believe that "insulting this community" (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1056473&postcount=85) results in a ban.

[Xenomorph]

Albos will hate me for this but anyway...

Bottom line: Tito de-Serbianized Kosovo beginning in the 1950's and encouraged the immigration of hundreds of thousands of Albanians.

You can look at demographic censuses from prior to 1950 that show Kosovo as being roughly 50/50 Serbian and Albanian.

Travelers from the 18th century in Kosovo remarked on how well the Serbs and Albanians got along.

The modern animosity and ethnic hatred between the two is a recent phenomenon STRONGLY fomented by the Austro-Hungarians and the West.
There's a reason why the Albanian flag features an Eagle taken ad verbatim from the Hapsburg flag, it's no mere coincidence.

Their "ethnic awakening" was strongly supported by the great powers of Western Europe in the years before and after WWI who saw great value in have a divided and disunited Balkans; which is why Tito immediately sought to unite as much of the Balkans as he possibly could post-WW2. (Even Bulgaria was in talks to be part of Yugoslavia)

Tito's "de-Serbianization" of Kosovo was part of his strategy of preventing overwhelming regional majorities from dominating sensitive areas; he applied to same methods to Bosnia and Eastern Croatia.

It was a smart move at the time because Tito had no idea that 50 years later America would destroy his country and covertly support nationalist movements that would tear the Balkans apart.

This is very true, and needs to be taken into consideration. At the very least, northern Kosovo needs to be given back to Serbia. That being said, we only have the present to deal with, and the present is that Kosovo is pretty much Albanian. Given the hot-blooded nationalism that is rampant in the Balkans and the history of these two areas, I think it's best if they part ways, for the good of both sides.


The Albanian posters on here fail to realise that they weren't given Kosovan Independence because Bill Clinton researched the last 1000 years of Serbian and Albanian history and went "You know what, according to so and so source from the 11th century, it was really Albanian land all along."

Trying to imagine this being said in Clinton's voice is hilarious.


I support kicking Serbs out of Kosova and driven out of their homes because they pissed off the Albanian majority and have to pay; but turning into a NATO puppet and USA satellite was a wrong way.

Woah there, that's a bit extreme. No need for masses of innocent people to suffer.


I think camps are those here:

Pro-Kosovo ones:
a)Serbophobes.
b)People who believe Western media about Balkan issues.
c)People who feel themselves closer to Albanians culturally or religiously.
d)Albanians.

Anti-Kosovo ones:
a)Islamophobes&Albanophobes.
b)Slavic nationalists and Orthodoxes who support Serbia romantically.
c)Rational people against seperatism and against global vampires who are thirsty for innocent peoples' blood.

You were correct right up until the last bit of hyperbole.

[Gospodine]

You are such a fucking hypocrite.. If that's the case why don't you vouch for Bosnia being a part of Serbia, or Croatia part of Serbia, or Montenegro part of Serbia, etc.. I don't see you talking about Bosnian or Croat independence as a part of US imperialism

You're such a fucking retard.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1055443&postcount=98

The West has done quite a thorough job on Albania and Kosovo... these stupid fucks willingly embrace their own slavery.

Albanians = American Rednecks of the Balkans.


BTW, America barely has any interests with Serbia. No resources and they aren't a threat to the US.

Sure.

That's why NATO spent a combined $3 billion dollars in military intervention and peacekeeping in the Former Yugoslavia.

Of course they aren't a threat you bloody moron; they had $64 billion dollars in economic damage inflicted upon them during the bombing and all their heavy industrial regions specifically targeted.

They never were a threat. Only when they refused to go along with Globalist plans to de-industralize and privatize the Balkans did they become a threat.

You guys became their bitch; and not even a well-paid whore at that.

The $58 million reconstruction package allotted to Kosovo by the West basically equals America's expense for one day's bombing of Serbia in 1999.

How does it feel to know, that nobody gives a fuck about your corner of the globe, and all they really care about is dismantling and punishing Serbia?

[Vojnik]

Extremely negative.

[Partizan]

Only two camps here:
First group includes: Those who their hearts and minds are in a perfect place, people who have reached the pinnacle hights moraly
spritualy and logicaly...Another words people who strive for clearity

The second group includes, little people who strive for obscurity: people who know the truth very well and know the difference from right and wrong, but still go for serbia wich hell waits them for sure without a single doubt in my mind.
The other part of this group wich is a big majority within the group are total Idiots: and hell awaits them as it should! for being colosal idiots.

:bored:

You talk like God about hell BTW.

You were correct right up until the last bit of hyperbole.

Why so?

For example I'm negative about Kosovo because of this reason.

http://underinformation.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/kosovo_bush.jpg

http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Thank%20You%20America%20Vitina%20Kosovo.jpg

http://willyloman.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/clinton-statue-kosovo-m.jpg?w=468

http://www.standaard.be/Assets/Images_Upload/2008/02/17/kosap1.jpg

[Gospodine]

The Albanians here have contributed nothing meaningful to the debate (not that I ever expected that), aside from sentimental drivel about all the illegal Albanian immigrants in Kosovo and the same tagline of "America said Kosovo is ours... so it is. America is always right. Nevermind the fact we wouldn't have taken Kosovo in a million years without NATO assistance, we legitimately claimed it."

I'm going to create a new thread about the break-up of Yugoslavia soon; and I'll definitely focus on the Kosovo issue in greater detail there.

[Vojnik]

The whole Balkans has been run by external forces. You think Croatia, Macedonia and Bosnia got their independence on their own?

If it wasn't for the UN and other external forces there probably wouldn't even be a Macedonia today.

:bored:

Macedonia gained it's independence on it's own. We actually exited Yugoslavia peacefully with no need of NATO or UN intervention.

A independent Kosovo is dangerous in many ways. One being is that it is a safe haven for Albanian organized crime in the Balkans.

[Albion]

Why would you say that albion?! Any intellegent person from europe that would disagree with kosovo independence from serbia is borderline evil.

I feel the need to tell this since i've respect for you.
Its not about religion, please don't fall in the cotegory of some internet evil trolls that deserve to have their family raped and killed just to learn a lesson in this.

Well I haven't said it should be part of Serbia. But it is essentially an Albanian state despite the rubbish about it being multi-ethnic, so it might as well have been given to Albania rather than becoming independent.
Kosovo is just going to get ever more controlled by the Albanians as time progresses and Serbs will likely leave in some numbers. Whether Serbs or Albanians own the land isn't what I'm getting at here.
Serbs are already a minority in an Albanian state, they may as well be a minority in the Albanian state now.

I avoided writing this after writing similar stuff about Bosnia-Herzegovina yesterday and seeing how that went.
I'm not against Albanians but I can't say I'm happy about Islam in Europe. But Albanians are already the majority in Kosovo now and they're not going to be moved no matter what Serbs say.

[Gospodine]

^ People like Albion, i.e. the ignorant, biased, foreign perception with no grasp of who really benefits from dividing the Balkans; oppose Kosovo for completely the wrong reasons.

Because Islamic immigration has been such a disaster for their country they believe it will play out the exact same way in any other European country, even those that have had Muslims for 500 years and even those without any sizable immigrant populations.

They also equate Bosnians/Albanians with Indian Muslims/Pakistanis/Arabs, who are actually 70-90% practicing Muslims and who have a religiously-mandated legal system that governs every aspect of their lives and who actually live like Bedouins circa the 6th century AD.

Kosovars aren't Muslims. There are almost no genuine "Muslims" on the Balkans.
Go to Pristina. You can buy Porn & Beer from newsagents.

Islam is completely irrelevant to the Kosovo issue and simply distracts gullible fools, like Albion, like a red cloth waved at a bull.

The real issue now is: any micro-state with even a slight ethnic majority that has Western backing can call for an independence referendum and break apart.

Albion is a cliched Western hypocrite, because if the tables were reversed and we started talking about Northern Ireland being incorporated to the Republic of Ireland, he would have a shit fit... despite the fact the exact same counter-reasoning was used to break-up the Former Yugoslavia and Serbia.

Kosovo is actually very simple to understand:


Rich in Coal and Natural Gas for the big multi-national energy companies.
Great transit point for drugs to come into Europe. (Afghanistan produces 90% of the world's opium/heroin. America needs trade routes with Europe to get the product over there. Thanks Kosovo!)
The Serbs sentimental attachment to Kosovo ensures they will completely overlook the privatization/de-industralization of their country by the EU because they are too busy obsessing over Kosovo.
Great precedent for supporting all sorts of break-away shitholes from the Balkans to the Caucasus to the Middle East and violating every single enemy countries national sovereignity.

For instance here's the future plans for the Balkanization of the Middle East:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/ralph_peters_solution_to_mideast_medium.jpg

Already America is covertly funding and supporting Baluchi separatists in Southern Iran (despite the fact these guys used to be on the US State Department's List of Known Terrorist Organizations) in preparation for the destabilization and eventual overthrow of the Mullahs.

Serbia is left humiliated, demonized and ostracized from the international community for supporting what ignorant retards in the West perceive to be "Serbian Imperialism/Greater Serbia".
Albanians become the West's premier bitch in the Balkans; way ahead of Bosnians and Croats... Albanian pro-Western sentiment skyrockets... Albania willingly invites foreign intrusion into it's industry and markets, Albania willingly locks itself into World Bank/IMF loans for life, Albania commits national suicide because they were given a speck of worthless land.
No need for destabilization/invasion/covert action in Albania! America saves itself millions and millions of dollars.

[Partizan]

^ People like Albion, i.e. the ignorant, biased, foreign perception with no grasp of who really benefits from dividing the Balkans; oppose Kosovo for completely the wrong reasons.

Because Islamic immigration has been such a disaster for their country they believe it will play out the exact same way in any other European country, even those that have had Muslims for 500 years and even those without any sizable immigrant populations.

They also equate Bosnians/Albanians with Indians/Pakistanis/Arabs, who are actually 70-90% practicing Muslims and who have a religiously-mandated legal system that governs every aspect of their lives and who actually live like Bedouins circa 6 AD.

Kosovars aren't Muslims. There are almost no genuine "Muslims" on the Balkans.
Go to Pristina. You can buy Porn & Beer from newsagents.

Islam is completely irrelevant to the Kosovo issue and simply distracts gullible fools, like Albion, like a red cloth waved a bull.

The real issue now is: any micro-state with even a slight ethnic majority that has Western backing can call for an independence referendum and break apart.

Albion is a cliched Western hypocrite, because if the tables were reversed and we started talking about Northern Ireland being incorporated to the Republic of Ireland, he would have a shit fit... despite the fact the exact same counter-reasoning was used to break-up the Former Yugoslavia and Serbia.


Anti-Kosovo ones:
a)Islamophobes&Albanophobes.
b)Slavic nationalists and Orthodoxes who support Serbia romantically.
c)Rational people against seperatism and against global vampires who are thirsty for innocent peoples' blood.


He is in this category.

[Albion]

I don't think people like Leliana or Pretan give a damn to what imperialism does to the World.Their only problem is "those filthy Muslims are stealing lands of our Christian brothas!!!!!"

Turks telling others about the evils of imperialism is almost as bad as when the British do it. :D Both once led large empires which epitomised imperialism.
Best to just look at it by a case-by-case basis.

You already contradicted yourself when you said that ethnicities shouldn't have the right to be their own nation:


c)Rational people against seperatism and against global vampires who are thirsty for innocent peoples' blood.

Imperialism denies that ethnicities should automatically have the right to their own countries and yet you just denounced it whilst actually supporting it.

[Ushtari]

The Albanians here have contributed nothing meaningful to the debate (not that I ever expected that)
Why do you ignore my post then?:rolleyes:

[Partizan]

Turks telling others about the evils of imperialism is almost as bad as when the British do it. :D Both once led large empires which epitomised imperialism.
Best to just look at it by a case-by-case basis.

Turkish/Ottoman Empire was Imperialist and Expansionist however their Imperialism can't be compared to European Colonialism.

Algerians speak French as second language,Aztecs don't exist anymore and most of SSA Africa is forcefully Christianised.

However,when I was in Athens,Heraklion or Santorini I saw Orthodox people speaking Greek,despite Ottomans ruled those lands for a long time.


You already contradicted yourself when you said that ethnicities shouldn't have the right to be their own nation:



Imperialism denies that ethnicities should automatically have the right to their own countries and yet you just denounced it whilst actually supporting it.

For God's sake,Kosovo doesn't have any functions except for being a NATO satellite state.They fought with American support,it is a known thing.

By the way,Kosovo has always been Serbian until 19. century.You can't show me an Albanian monument in Kosovo which is older than 300-400 years.

About Serbian presence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Monuments_in_Kosovo

[Ushtari]

By the way,Kosovo has always been Serbian until 19. century.You can't show me an Albanian monument in Kosovo which is older than 300-400 years.
So how did Albanian ended up there?

[Albion]

^ People like Albion, i.e. the ignorant, biased, foreign perception with no grasp of who really benefits from dividing the Balkans; oppose Kosovo for completely the wrong reasons.

The logical perception. Kosovo isn't Serbian, they lost it a long time ago. Does it make any sense to leave a large, resentful Albanian population within Serbia's borders? If anything it would likely lead to further conflict.

And you here commenting about ignorant foreigners - you're the same idiot on that Ireland thread discussing matters you know nothing about.


Because Islamic immigration has been such a disaster for their country they believe it will play out the exact same way in any other European country, even those that have had Muslims for 500 years and even those without any sizable immigrant populations.

Well the Muslim populations in Europe are rather backwards, do you deny this?


They also equate Bosnians/Albanians with Indians/Pakistanis/Arabs, who are actually 70-90% practicing Muslims and who have a religiously-mandated legal system that governs every aspect of their lives and who actually live like Bedouins circa 6 AD.

So you claim that Muslims in Europe are non-practising so it doesn't matter? What happens if they do decide to take religion seriously then?
And a fairer comparison would be with Chechens, Ingush and other North Caucasians - at least they're Europeans. But Europe wait...... Europe can harbour native Islamic extremists too? :eek:


Kosovars aren't Muslims. There are almost no genuine "Muslims" on the Balkans.
Go to Pristina. You can buy Porn & Beer from newsagents.

What's your point?


Islam is completely irrelevant to the Kosovo issue and simply distracts gullible fools, like Albion, like a red cloth waved a bull.


It's still not desirable though no matter how much you downplay it. And if you cared to read my post you'd have noticed it mainly concerns the inhabitants rather than religions of Kosovo.


The real issue now is: any micro-state with even a slight ethnic majority that has Western backing can call for an independence referendum and break apart.

Slight?


Albion is a cliched Western hypocrite, because if the tables were reversed and we started talking about Northern Ireland being incorporated to the Republic of Ireland, he would have a shit fit... despite the fact the exact same counter-reasoning was used to break-up the Former Yugoslavia and Serbia.

Actually I'm all for it and wish you'd stop presuming to know what I think. If you go onto profile and find my past posts I'm sure you'll find posts where I've stated this many times.

Northern Ireland is a headache and most people in the UK either a) couldn't care less about the place or b) want them out of the UK.
It's just a few misguided "loyalists" and Westminster which keeps it in the UK. There's not really much difference between loyalists and republicans though apart from loyalists having some Scottish ancestry and being protestant - most people in Ireland probably have some Scottish and Irish ancestry!

I'm an English nationalist in case you haven't noticed - I'm for an independent England (and Scotland, Wales, United Ireland). Balkan members like to call it the "Balkanisation of Britain".
Here though the ethnicities actually fit the borders better.


Rich in Coal and Natural Gas for the big multi-national energy companies.

Coal isn't worth very much, it is usually cheaper to get it from China. Even Poland's coal mines struggle to compete.


The Serbs sentimental attachment to Kosovo ensures they will completely overlook the privatization/de-industralization of their country by the EU.

Wouldn't that happen anyway?

[Albion]

He is in this category.

Not really. I dislike it but I put that aside.

[Gospodine]

The real bottom line is, regardless of what your justifications are, supporting Kosovo is supporting the death of national sovereignty.

The future of American foreign policy will not be hostile invasions of economically or militarily strategic parts of the world.
Too costly, too divisive, too much blowback for America.

It will be faking grass roots opposition movements to topple foreign governments hostile to America, supporting and installing nationalist/fundamentalist political parties like those currently in power in Libya or Egypt, and then, since those poor fucks don't even know how to work a calculator, let alone run an economy, they will gladly open their doors to the international community, who will get their precious minerals/energy reserves/debt-free banks without firing a single shot.

This is exactly what the "Arab Spring" has achieved.

You have CIA-trained and armed Syrians toppling Assad, you had bonafide Al-Qaeda members fighting along the Libyan resistance, and you have the Islamic Brotherhood coming to power in Egypt.

Rather than seeing American Marines on their streets "liberating" their country; which tends to piss people off, the future oppressed 3rd-Worlders will see "Freedom Fighters/Resistance/Opposition Groups/Democratic Teenagers" on their streets, who they can empathize with and who are easily swayed by foreign influence, especially money and means to turn their bullshit protests into a full-scale civil wars.

Anglo-American globalists sit back, chuckle and count their money.

[Ushtari]

^^Funny how you keep ignoring my posts, i wonder why:rolleyes:

A country's sovereignty gets disrespected when the country/government in question decide to terrorize its inhabitants. Besides, Kosovo's independence didn't violate any international law.

[Albion]

Turkish/Ottoman Empire was Imperialist and Expansionist however their Imperialism can't be compared to European Colonialism.

It can.


Algerians speak French as second language,Aztecs don't exist anymore and most of SSA Africa is forcefully Christianised.

Aztecs merged with the Spanish settlers to become the Mexicans. Those were the richest lands so it is where settlers headed to. On the other hand the Maya do still exist.


However,when I was in Athens,Heraklion or Santorini I saw Orthodox people speaking Greek,despite Ottomans ruled those lands for a long time.

People still speak Gurani, Aymara or the Mayan languages in Latin America.

I'm basing my posts about Kosovo on who is there now - Serbs aren't going to shift the Albanians out now and it is daft to pretend otherwise.

[Partizan]

So how did Albanian ended up there?

1.Ottomans settled Albanians from neighbouring areas.Not to forget Great Serbian Exodus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Serb_Migrations
2.Gospodine already shared stuff about Tito's de-Serbianisation of Kosovo.

[Ushtari]

1.Ottomans settled Albanians from neighbouring areas
Source?


2.Gospodine already shared stuff about Tito's de-Serbianisation of Kosovo.
Source?

[Gospodine]

^^Funny how you keep ignoring my posts, i wonder why:rolleyes:

No I heard your pointless bullshit the first time mate.

Nice Ottoman census. You'll notice that if you add the "Orthodox Bulgarians" and Serbs together; Kosovo was 50/50 more or less. Which was my point.
The Ottomans had retarded criteria for ethnic identification anyway. The "Turks" they refer to are Slavic-speaking Muslims.

A pre-WWI census when nationalist awakenings were beginning to take hold over the entire Balkans and 3 years before the Ottomans lost 85% of their European territory isn't really a reliable metric; but don't let that stop your historical revisionist crusade.

[Partizan]

Aztecs merged with the Spanish settlers to become the Mexicans. Those were the richest lands so it is where settlers headed to. On the other hand the Maya do still exist.

Yeah yeah,conquistadors didn't rape or kill anybody...




People still speak Gurani, Aymara or the Mayan languages in Latin America.

Well,most of them speak Spanish as well.Even North Africans speak French as second language despite they lived less than 200 years under French rule.


I'm basing my posts about Kosovo on who is there now - Serbs aren't going to shift the Albanians out now and it is daft to pretend otherwise.

Unfortunately case is that...But certain one is,Kosovo has been heart of the Srbija and Kosovars couldn't get independence without American support.

[Ushtari]

Nice Ottoman census. You'll notice that if you add the "Orthodox Bulgarians" and Serbs together; Kosovo was 50/50. Which was my point.

A pre-WWI census when nationalist awakenings were beginning to take hold over the entire Balkans and 3 years before the Ottomans lost 85% of their European territory isn't really a reliable metric; but don't let that stop your historical revisionist crusade.

Kosovo has had Albanian majority the last 300years, that was my point:)

[Partizan]

Source?


Albos will hate me for this but anyway...

Bottom line: Tito de-Serbianized Kosovo beginning in the 1950's and encouraged the immigration of hundreds of thousands of Albanians.

You can look at demographic censuses from prior to 1950 that show Kosovo as being roughly 50/50 Serbian and Albanian.

Travelers from the 18th century in Kosovo remarked on how well the Serbs and Albanians got along.

The modern animosity and ethnic hatred between the two is a recent phenomenon STRONGLY fomented by the Austro-Hungarians and the West.
There's a reason why the Albanian flag features an Eagle taken ad verbatim from the Hapsburg flag, it's no mere coincidence.

Their "ethnic awakening" was strongly supported by the great powers of Western Europe in the years before and after WWI who saw great value in have a divided and disunited Balkans; which is why Tito immediately sought to unite as much of the Balkans as he possibly could post-WW2. (Even Bulgaria was in talks to be part of Yugoslavia)

Tito's "de-Serbianization" of Kosovo was part of his strategy of preventing overwhelming regional majorities from dominating sensitive areas; he applied to same methods to Bosnia and Eastern Croatia.

It was a smart move at the time because Tito had no idea that 50 years later America would destroy his country and covertly support nationalist movements that would tear the Balkans apart.

The Albanian posters on here fail to realise that they weren't given Kosovan Independence because Bill Clinton researched the last 1000 years of Serbian and Albanian history and went "You know what, according to so and so source from the 11th century, it was really Albanian land all along."

Kosovo was made independent because of Anglo-American plans to fracture the Balkans and sell it off piece by piece to the highest bidder. I.e. "Balkanization".

Privatization has destroyed whatever economies the Former Yugoslav states once had.

Kosovo is a micro-state that will never amount to anything, and has no regional influence or power.

It's the West's middle finger at Serbia and the Yugoslav ideal of unity to ward off against foreign intrusion.

Probably he can give you a link or a quote about this issue.

[Ushtari]

Probably he can give you a link or a quote about this issue.
I asked for source supporting your claims, not a forum posthttps://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif

[Albion]

Yeah yeah,conquistadors didn't rape or kill anybody...

The Ottomans were hardly saints themselves.


Well,most of them speak Spanish as well.Even North Africans speak French as second language despite they lived less than 200 years under French rule.

Most Dutch speak English as a second language, what's your point?

[Ushtari]

Fact is that:

- Kosovo has been Albanian territory since antiquity.
- Kosovo has had Albanian majority the last 300 years.
- Kosovo now has an Albanian majority of over 90%.
- Kosovo's independence does not violate international law, wich an international court ruled.
- The population of Kosovo has several years before the war, voted for independence in which 99.7% were for independence.
- The Serbian government has repeatedly carried out ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Kosovo Albanian community, most recently 1998-1999.
- The Serbian regime terrorized the Albanian population from the time they pulled away Kosovo's autonomy until the end of the war. They kicked all the Albanians from the public sector, removed Albanian as an official language, banned Albanians from studying at university and all the cultural freedoms and rights were pulled off, imprisoned people, accused them of various crimes in the Serbian media wich they had never been guilty of , introduced apartheid society, etc.

In other words, very much speaks for Kosovo's independence and that is why the free and democratic world sided with the Albanians, while pure dictatorships put themselves on the Serbian side.

[Gospodine]

Kosovo has had Albanian majority the last 300years, that was my point:)

Correction: last 50-60 years.

Thanks in great part to Italian-controlled Fascist Albania, which ethnically cleansed about 250,000 Serbs from Kosovo (and that's a conservative estimate).

What? Albanians committed massacres? No! I thought Bosnians and Albanians can only be victims! CNN said so!

And thanks in great part to Tito, who the Albanians ironically hate :lmao, despite the fact that without Tito's forceful balancing of ethnic proportions in the sensitive regions of Yugoslavia, the Serb-dominated Kosovar politicians would have simply walled off the border with Albania and you would be sitting here talking about a 60-40 split Kosovo, rather than a 90% Albanian Kosovo.

Way before Clinton and Bush, Tito was your sugar-daddy.
You guys have more reason to love Tito than I do.

And don't give me shit about being a hypocritical Bosnian. Bosnians didn't want a Federation. The Croats were just as harmful to us as the Serbs were.

We wanted our own country, regardless of any legitimacy we had to make that judgement it was the only viable alternative since our neighbours had secretly met in Karadjordjevo in 1991 before the war began and agreed to divide up Bosnia amongst themselves and leave us scraps here and there; even in places where Bosniaks were a majority.

Like everyone else we got screwed at Dayton and now we're stuck in a grudging alliance with the Croats that works about as well as a Czechoslovakian refrigerator.

I've said what I wanted to say about the non-country of Kosovo and I will make a thread about Yugoslavia sometime soon that will examine the poisonous influence that America has had on the Former Yugoslav states as well as how it destroyed Yugoslavia.

But for god's sakes Albanians, stop blindly supporting the country that turned the Balkans into the 3rd world of Europe.

I doubt any Albanian poster on here is stupid enough to say (or I would hope) that going into Iraq was a brilliant decision.

And yet they support pretty much the exact same justifications used to bomb Serbia as were used to bomb Iraq.

Both countries had allegedly violated UN-mandated resolutions to keep their military forces within restricted corridors. Said resolutions stemmed from a US need to overthrow non-US aligned politicians or political parties that were blocking American economic/strategic interests in the region.

[Gospodine]

- The Serbian regime terrorized the Albanian population

Oh please. Everyone has blood on their hands.


KLA/UCK attacks on Serbs in Kosovo began in 1996. Postal workers, forest service employees, municipal police, and ethnic Albanian "traitors" (those who worked cooperatively with Serbs) were targeted. In February, simultaneous bombs went off in five refugee camps in Kosovo housing victims of the recent cleansing of Krajinan Serbs from Croatia. The KLA, 40,000 strong, controlled a third of Kosova. With another ambush of Serbian police, the Yugoslav federal government decided to go to war. Fighting began near villages assumed sympathetic to the KLA. These rural areas swapped hands repeatedly as federal and guerrilla forces ebbed and surged.

In 1998, 10,000 Serbian Interior police (later the notorious "ethnic cleansers" during NATO bombing) entered the fray. Still, U.S. envoy Robert Gelbard declared the KLA "without any question a terrorist group." Milosevic apparently interpreted Washington's opinion as a green light to vanquish the rebels. A 50-person massacre among the Jashari clan, a "roots" family of the KLA, ignited a general uprising in the countryside. Summer saw villages torched in Serb offensives, but KLA territory gradually increased.

In October 1998, the U.S. arranged a ceasefire. Serb troops withdrew a prescribed distance; the zone was to remain demilitarized. But KLA forces advanced and resupplied these positions within hours. The breaking point came on January 15, when 45 ethnic Albanians were killed, apparently by Serb forces in the village of Recak, "at a time when human rights violations were occurring on both sides" (The New Yorker, 5/10/99). Threatened with NATO bombing, the belligerents came to the table at Rambouillet, France, beginning two months of deliberations.
http://www.zianet.com/lapaz/yugo3.html


Another contributor to population imbalance in Kosovo is decades of harassment of the Serb minority by certain factions of Albanian society. Serbs have been victims of murder, rape, robbery, and industrial sabotage (National Catholic Reporter, 6/18/99). The intimidation is intended to drive Serbs out of Kosovo. Indeed, between 1966 and 1989, 130,000 Serbs left Kosovo for good. The New York Times quoted a Kosovar official in 1982 explaining the harassment's objective is "an ethnically clean Albanian republic and merger to form a greater Albania." For the next seven years, the Nexis database attributes to Albanian nationalists each use of the terms "ethnic cleansing" or "ethnically clean." The Times reported in November 1987 that Muslim officials "have manipulated regulations to take land belonging to Serbs... Wells have been poisoned and crops burned... As Slavs flee the protracted violence, Kosovo is becoming an ethnically pure Albanian region."

A foundation for poor relations was laid in 1952 when an Interior Minister and his secret police began terrorizing Kosovars. Tito sacked the minister in 1966 and began to redress the situation. In 1974, a new constitution granted increased autonomy to Kosova (the Albanian spelling will be used interchangeably here). By 1980, a Pristina University professor proclaimed, "Not a single minority in the world has achieved the rights the Albanian nationality enjoys in socialist Yugoslavia!" (New Military Humanism, Chomsky, p.24, 1999) But with Tito's death that year, the situation began to deteriorate. Relations between Muslims and Slavs and Muslims' ties to the Federation grew increasingly strained. Austere debt "restructuring" imposed on Yugoslavia by the International Monetary Fund cut-off most of Belgrade's financial support to Kosovo, worsening matters. University riots broke out in 1981 and dozens were killed. In 1982, a twelve-year-old Serb boy was set on fire. In 1985, a Serb policemen was mutilated. In 1987, an Orthodox nunnery was burned down. The Kosova independence movement was heating up.
http://www.zianet.com/lapaz/yugo3.html

[Drawing-slim]

(Partizan, "before yahweh i'm" :D)

Here we go again in a kosovo thread, bla bla..Waste of time

[Ushtari]

Correction: last 50-60 years.

Kosovo was an Albanian-majority territory of the Ottoman empire until 1912, when it was conquered, though not formally annexed, by Serbia. The Serbian army engaged in large-scale ethnic-cleansing designed to alter the demographic character of the population. After Serbia and Kosovo joined Yugoslavia in 1918, the Belgrade regime attempted to colonise Kosovo with Serb and Montenegrin settlers.

Source (http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflict-yugoslavia/kosovo_process_4341.jsp)


Need i continue?

[Prengs]

Correction: last 50-60 years.

Thanks in great part to Italian-controlled Fascist Albania, which ethnically cleansed about 250,000 Serbs from Albania (and that's a conservative estimate).



Lolz first time i heard this non-sense crap. :eek: even from bosnak where his compatriots during fascist time cleansed about 250.000 Serbs from Bosnia (You probability confused with your country).

If there would have been living 250k serbs, In 1912 Albania would have same fate as Kosovo which stolen by Serbia with 45-50.000 living serbs and an absolute majority Albanians in Kosovo.

[Ushtari]

^^ the retard(Gospodine) claim Serbs were majority when my father got born https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/laugh.gifhttps://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif

[Gospodine]

Source (http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflict-yugoslavia/kosovo_process_4341.jsp)

From YOUR source:


It is the 1820s, the oppressor is the Ottoman empire

:picard1:


The occupying powers (ITALY) and their quislings subjected Kosovo's peoples - Serbs, Albanians and others - to a reign of terror. Tens of thousands of Kosovo Serbs were killed or driven from their homes by Albanian quislings and collaborators,


Serbs spearheaded the Kosovo partisan resistance to the Axis order,

Albania wanted to bend over to the Nazis along with Croatia... until Hoxha showed how much more brutal Communist hard-liners can be.


In the late 1980s, the Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic effectively ended Kosovo's autonomy and divested the Albanians of most of their national and human rights. Milosevic's repression culminated in a massive ethnic-cleansing campaign in 1999 - for which Nato intervention provided a cover and a pretext - in which 800,000 Albanians were driven from their homes and thousands murdered.

Wiki Facts = Instant fail.


Following the 1999 war, western leaders have never been prepared to allow a return of Serbian forces to Kosovo that would inevitably involve a renewal of the bloodshed.

In other words: we know the Serbs would have destroyed the KLA in a one-on-one offensive


The Kosovo Albanians have had a very poor record where treatment of the Kosovo Serb minority is concerned, involving, in the orchestrated riots of March 2004 in particular, pogroms and the burning of Serb homes and churches. Yet with the Kosovo Serbs no longer representing a barrier toward independence, there is some reason to hope that Albanian behaviour toward them will improve.

:rotfl:

Meanwhile, life in the 3rd-world country of Kosovo:
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Kosovo/NATO-attack/photo/nato-bombs-convoy.GIF

[Panopticon]

Kosovo also does not give any rights to its minorities

All of the minorities are given plenty of human rights; human rights law in Kosova is quite progressive.

Since you have such insight into the human rights laws in Kosova: share it.

I think you were referring to something else, however.


Albos will hate me for this but anyway...

Bottom line: Tito de-Serbianized Kosovo beginning in the 1950's and encouraged the immigration of hundreds of thousands of Albanians.

You can look at demographic censuses from prior to 1950 that show Kosovo as being roughly 50/50 Serbian and Albanian.

Travelers from the 18th century in Kosovo remarked on how well the Serbs and Albanians got along.

I won't hate you, I will maintain the opinion that you are far more ignorant than the ones you deride for being ignorant in your opinion, however. (Why is a Bosniak living in Australia discussing this topic? Just to imitate you.)

-You are utterly wrong anyhow. There never were any "deserbianising", it is called the decentralization of Yugoslavia. One could say there was a policy of serbianisation of Kosova, however. Look up Vaso Cubrilovic's memorandum "The expulsion of the Albanians", that was the policy maintained by the Serbian intellectual elite rulers. Tito didn't decentralize Yugoslavia before after 1966, when Rankovic, the minister of internal affairs; and head of the military intelligence and the secret police, the 1971 constitutional reform and the constitution of 1974 being proof of how Yugoslavia was becoming decentralized after Rankovic. Before that Tito, and Yugoslavia as a whole, had given little real interest exempting some rhetoric and mentions here and there. Tito had in fact never even visited Kosova before 1967; just after he had expelled Rankovic from the Communist Party. Kosova under Rankovic was basically a Serbian police state with an oppressed Albanian majority.

-There never were mass migrations into Kosova during this time. If there were it would have been documented. The majority was Albanian, by a large majority at that, despite Serbian and Montenegrin colonization and other measures to change the demography. Albania was an isolated prison state; it would have been impossible for hundreds of thousands of Albanians to jump over the border. The claim is so incredibly far-fetched and unsubstantiated that it is simply astonishing.

-Which travelers are you speaking of? There were no travelers in Kosova during the 18th century. I might of course be wrong, but I doubt it. Can you give me the benefit of showing me who they were?



The modern animosity and ethnic hatred between the two is a recent phenomenon STRONGLY fomented by the Austro-Hungarians and the West.
There's a reason why the Albanian flag features an Eagle taken ad verbatim from the Hapsburg flag, it's no mere coincidence.

-Nope. The ethnic hatred started when the Serbian intellectual elite realized that the Albanians in Kosova, and Albania, Montenegro and Macedonia to lesser extent, would be a huge problem for the expansionist aspirations of their semi-independent (and later on independent) nation. From that point, they sought to somehow take care of that problem. They set up a Serbian propaganda machine. Here is one example of that from Tim Judah's Kosovo, War and Revenge.

"This was the era of Serbian national romanticism expressed in art and literature. Simultaneously though, Serbian scholars began to apply their minds to the Albanians. As the Croatian historian Ivo Banac pointed out in his seminal study The National Question in Yugoslavia, 'Not all Albanians could be expected to flee from their native homesteads,' when Kosovo was reconquered. 'As a result, Serbian propaganda simultaneously dehumanised Albanians, presenting them as utterly incapable of governing themselves and as the sort of element that ought to be exterminated, and elevated them to the standing that warranted their assimilation.' While on the one hand, then, a theory was developed which explained that a large part of the Kosovo Albanian population were really Albanianised Serbs, on the other the Albanians were denigrated, as Banac puts it as 'savages'.

So, Dr Vladan Djordjevic, a noted Serbian statesman and public health specialist, showed no restraint in this line of defamation. Citing various foreign travelers and doctors of anthroposcopy, Djordjevic had his Albanians skinny and short, possessed of gypsy and Phoenician features - indeed reminding him of the 'prehumans, who slept in trees, to which they were fastened by their tails'."

-The Albanian flag is the flag that Skenderbeu used, he took it from the Byzantine Empire, which took it from the pre-Turkic people of Asia Minor. The Habsburgs took the double-headed eagle from the Holy Roman Empire, which had taken it from the Byzantines, etc. A lot of countries use the double-headed eagle as a symbol on their flag or their coat of arms: Russia, Serbia, Montenegro and Albania for instance. This is no mere coincidence, they are all vassals of the Habsburgs!.. Then the knowledgeable, critical and logical part of my brain set in:
http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/9/9e/HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg


Their "ethnic awakening" was strongly supported by the great powers of Western Europe in the years before and after WWI who saw great value in have a divided and disunited Balkans; which is why Tito immediately sought to unite as much of the Balkans as he possibly could post-WW2. (Even Bulgaria was in talks to be part of Yugoslavia)

-You are confusing a national awakening with nationalist aspirations. I don't really see how a national awakening is negative anyway. You make no point. There never were any reason for Albanians being part in an union with other Balkan states. It was never the intention of other Balkan states to live in an union with Albanians either; just expand at the cost of the Albanians.

-Our national awakening never gained noteworthy support from the great powers exempt Austrian and German to some extent. Unfortunately for us, we had the support of the losers of history. Serbia, on the other hand, had the support of Russia, France, Britain and generally most. They had the benefit of being supported by the winners of history. The treaty of San Stefano and Berlin should say at least something quite succinctly. Moreover, when several other Balkan states (Serbia; Montenegro; and Greece being the most important of them) attacked Albania and Albanian inhabited areas there was no help to be seen.

-You are so completely wrong when it comes to the view the West had on Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was the darling of the West, and Tito was venerated by them. These are simply the words of a Yugonostalgic who tries to blame the disintegration of Yugoslavia on the West and their conspiracy. Shows how much insight you have.



Tito's "de-Serbianization" of Kosovo was part of his strategy of preventing overwhelming regional majorities from dominating sensitive areas; he applied to same methods to Bosnia and Eastern Croatia.

-The decentralization of Yugoslavia was part of his strategy to prevent too much power to come in the hands of one group and to give each and every group more autonomy.


It was a smart move at the time because Tito had no idea that 50 years later America would destroy his country and covertly support nationalist movements that would tear the Balkans apart.

-It was a smart move. Something that was not a smart move was the disintegration of his smart move after his death. The largest problem in Yugoslavia was the centralization from a political and economic aspect. Yugoslavia could still probably have been if Serbian fanatical nationalism had been avoided. Speaking of avoiding, you are avoiding that by blaming in on the West because it is inconvenient for you that Yugoslavia was doomed to fail due to the Yugoslavs themselves. The disintegration of Yugoslavia stemmed from Serbia.


The Albanian posters on here fail to realise that they weren't given Kosovan Independence because Bill Clinton researched the last 1000 years of Serbian and Albanian history and went "You know what, according to so and so source from the 11th century, it was really Albanian land all along."

-Such a sweeping generalization and unsubstantiated at that. I have yet to see anyone argue that. We know that NATO has their own interests, does that matter anyway? NATO helped us, and they're not going to screw us nearly as hard as we were screwed in Yugoslavia.


Kosovo was made independent because of Anglo-American plans to fracture the Balkans and sell it off piece by piece to the highest bidder. I.e. "Balkanization".

-You are right in that there are economic interests and geo-political interests for the West in the Balkans. You are wrong in that they made it independent due to simply privatizing it.


Privatization has destroyed whatever economies the Former Yugoslav states once had.

-Privatization has been a problem for all post-communist states. Russia is the by far best example of that.


Kosovo is a micro-state that will never amount to anything, and has no regional influence or power.

-Why should that even matter? You seem bitter. Isn't this kind of similar to the angry and bitter ex, friend, partner, etc. who tells you that you won't amount to anything without them?


It's the West's middle finger at Serbia and the Yugoslav ideal of unity to ward off against foreign intrusion.

-Yugoslavia was the pet of the West, the West loved it and Tito. Milosevic, they did not, I think that it was quite reasonable to dislike Milosevic. However, that was only after a certain time, the West, in its delusional view of Yugoslavia and a wish to keep it intact, did not see through Milosevic in time.


I think camps are those here:

Pro-Kosovo ones:
a)Serbophobes.
b)People who believe Western media about Balkan issues.
c)People who feel themselves closer to Albanians culturally or religiously.
d)Albanians.

Anti-Kosovo ones:
a)Islamophobes&Albanophobes.
b)Slavic nationalists and Orthodoxes who support Serbia romantically.
c)Rational people against seperatism and against global vampires who are thirsty for innocent peoples' blood.

That is generalizing it far too much. To think that you can sum up leanings on a political issue like that. :rolleyes:


The Albanians here have contributed nothing meaningful to the debate (not that I ever expected that), aside from sentimental drivel about all the illegal Albanian immigrants in Kosovo and the same tagline of "America said Kosovo is ours... so it is. America is always right. Nevermind the fact we wouldn't have taken Kosovo in a million years without NATO assistance, we legitimately claimed it."

I'm going to create a new thread about the break-up of Yugoslavia soon; and I'll definitely focus on the Kosovo issue in greater detail there.

You are not the one who should control the criteria of contribution. To brush things away as not being contributions due to you disagreeing is quite lowly, you tend to do that with anyone who disagrees with you, however. You are simply a tunnel-minded, delusional, arrogant, incredibly biased Yugonostalgic, and I'm not exaggerating.


1.Ottomans settled Albanians from neighbouring areas.Not to forget Great Serbian Exodus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Serb_Migrations
2.Gospodine already shared stuff about Tito's de-Serbianisation of Kosovo.

1.

-No, they Ottomans did not settle Albanians from neighbouring areas; there is no documentation of that. There were however migrations of Albanians from the mountains of northern Albania; this was merely filling a void. Still, demographic changes are common in history, and especially that of the Balkans. Ironically, the Serbs are guilty of the same thing they that accuse the Albanians of, some keywords: Montenegro, Vojvodina, Bosnia, Croatia.

-There had already been an Albanian presence in Kosova before the 1600's, that is established by Ottoman defters and Serbian documents. We even know that there was a Slavization of Albanians in Kosova due to the latter. In a Serbian document from 1210, the names of 208 individuals of a specific area are given: of these, 154 have Serb names, and 54 have Albanian and Vlach names; 26%. In another document from 1313-1314, there are 444 Serb names and 117 Albanian and Vlach names; 25%. That is of course without taking certain factors into account. Mainly that Albanians and Vlachs were in the majority not landtied serfs and peasants like the Serbs, they were pastoral and semi-nomadic people, which made them hard to tax, which is what these consensuses were about. There is much that is written on that topic.

2.

-The Great Serbian Serbian Migration of the late 1600's is a myth. Funnily enough, a large amount of Albanians from Kosova had also migrated to Hungary during this period.

[rashka]

^ People like Albion, i.e. the ignorant, biased, foreign perception with no grasp of who really benefits from dividing the Balkans; oppose Kosovo for completely the wrong reasons.

Because Islamic immigration has been such a disaster for their country they believe it will play out the exact same way in any other European country, even those that have had Muslims for 500 years and even those without any sizable immigrant populations.

They also equate Bosnians/Albanians with Indian Muslims/Pakistanis/Arabs, who are actually 70-90% practicing Muslims and who have a religiously-mandated legal system that governs every aspect of their lives and who actually live like Bedouins circa the 6th century AD.

Kosovars aren't Muslims. There are almost no genuine "Muslims" on the Balkans.
Go to Pristina. You can buy Porn & Beer from newsagents.

Islam is completely irrelevant to the Kosovo issue and simply distracts gullible fools, like Albion, like a red cloth waved at a bull.

The real issue now is: any micro-state with even a slight ethnic majority that has Western backing can call for an independence referendum and break apart.

Albion is a cliched Western hypocrite, because if the tables were reversed and we started talking about Northern Ireland being incorporated to the Republic of Ireland, he would have a shit fit... despite the fact the exact same counter-reasoning was used to break-up the Former Yugoslavia and Serbia.

Kosovo is actually very simple to understand:


Rich in Coal and Natural Gas for the big multi-national energy companies.
Great transit point for drugs to come into Europe. (Afghanistan produces 90% of the world's opium/heroin. America needs trade routes with Europe to get the product over there. Thanks Kosovo!)
The Serbs sentimental attachment to Kosovo ensures they will completely overlook the privatization/de-industralization of their country by the EU because they are too busy obsessing over Kosovo.
Great precedent for supporting all sorts of break-away shitholes from the Balkans to the Caucasus to the Middle East and violating every single enemy countries national sovereignity.

For instance here's the future plans for the Balkanization of the Middle East:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/ralph_peters_solution_to_mideast_medium.jpg

Already America is covertly funding and supporting Baluchi separatists in Southern Iran (despite the fact these guys used to be on the US State Department's List of Known Terrorist Organizations) in preparation for the destabilization and eventual overthrow of the Mullahs.

Serbia is left humiliated, demonized and ostracized from the international community for supporting what ignorant retards in the West perceive to be "Serbian Imperialism/Greater Serbia".
Albanians become the West's premier bitch in the Balkans; way ahead of Bosnians and Croats... Albanian pro-Western sentiment skyrockets... Albania willingly invites foreign intrusion into it's industry and markets, Albania willingly locks itself into World Bank/IMF loans for life, Albania commits national suicide because they were given a speck of worthless land.
No need for destabilization/invasion/covert action in Albania! America saves itself millions and millions of dollars.



PERFECT. Also there is a reason why Americans won't let go of Serb dominated northern areas. That is the richest part with water, gas and minerals.
They want to steal from Serbia.

[Albion]

PERFECT. Also there is a reason why Americans won't let go of Serb dominated northern areas. That is the richest part with water, gas and minerals.
They want to steal from Serbia.

Stealing water? I know America is in drought but they're hardly going to be shipping it off to America.
Shale gas occurs practically everywhere in Europe and North America btw, most is in Northern Europe.

[Minesweeper]

Stealing water? I know America is in drought but they're hardly going to be shipping it off to America.
Shale gas occurs practically everywhere in Europe and North America btw, most is in Northern Europe.

Forget about gas and water.This is what they actually want in the North.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trep%C4%8Da_Mines

http://www.pravda.rs/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/trepca.jpg

[Prengs]

^^ the retard(Gospodine) claim Serbs were majority when my father got born https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/laugh.gifhttps://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif

:picard2:

More stupidly is about his conspiracion againt NATO/UN and supports of serbian aggressions againt his own people.

See carefully this video from Sarajevo 1995 (especially after the 2 minute)

cwq6k4WiwHo

And still it's fault of NATO/UN that helped them and gave independence.

[~Nik~]

:picard2:

More stupidly is about his conspiracion againt NATO/UN and supports of serbian aggressions againt his own people.

See carefully this video from Sarajevo 1995 (especially after the 2 minute)

cwq6k4WiwHo

And still it's fault of NATO/UN that helped them and gave independence.

I posted a thread on this issue long ago, but it was removed, the story about the concentration camps is a hoax.

[rashka]

I posted a thread on this issue long ago, but it was removed, the story about the concentration camps is a hoax.

Let's see now that being removed from here. :rolleyes:
Pathetic attempts by user who posted that. Resentful and envious people will always show their face and doesn't mean they love Balkan slavs.

[kabeiros]

But Albanians are already the majority in Kosovo now and they're not going to be moved no matter what Serbs say.That's exactly what 500.000 pakis can do in England. They can all move to a small territory within your country, and then claim it as their own. I'm not sure that you will accept it...

[Drawing-slim]

That's exactly what 500.000 pakis can do in England. They can all move to a small territory within your country, and then claim it as their own. I'm not sure that you will accept it...

Yeah:rolleyes: a greek with curly black thick hair iron like strong hair in the head and mustache comparing us with pakis moving to england? No irony here..

[Prengs]

That's exactly what 500.000 pakis can do in England. They can all move to a small territory within your country, and then claim it as their own. I'm not sure that you will accept it...

What stupid logical is this?, we are not like Greeks which 60% of them moved from Asia minor to modern Greece in the late XIX century. And that your logic comparison with pakis, fits only for you greeks.

[alb0zfinest]

Cool story bro.

So remind me why didn't the international community intervene in Sudan, Rwanda, Cambodia, or Iraq before 1991 when the Iraqi Kurds were being gassed?
Far greater death tolls were exacted in these respective bloodbaths. Those were black and white genocides; no historical ambiguity, no weird territorial issues or tricky ethnic identity problems to resolve.
Just some cartoon bad guy wiping out tens of thousands to millions of people.

It would have made far more sense from a moral and ethical standpoint to intervene there rather than Kosovo.

The reason why the UN sat on it's hands for those genocides is because these countries with the exception of Iraq are not worth the piece of paper they occupy on a map of the world to the US.

Kosovo is important because it is a leverage point over Serbia, which being the direct descendant of Yugoslavia, is meted out special scrutiny by the West for putting up the most resistance to their divide and conquer plans in the Balkans.

How dare they have a functioning, hybrid Planned Economy/Free Market, multi-ethnic state after the fall of Communism that was still working.

How dare Milosevic try and nationalize his industries to protect them from the EU Mafia.

How dare they actually defeat the KLA in a direct military confrontation without NATO intervention.
(The KLA, like the Bosnian Mujahideen was basically a conduit for all sorts of filth to come into the Balkans from terrorists to drug-smugglers to foreign intelligence agents.)

Kosovo sets an extremely dangerous precedent for the future. Any micro-state with a ethnicity majority, that has UN/NATO/US backing can ask for a referendum and break-away now.

This is what the West wants. Vojvodina, Sandzak, RS, Albanian Macedonia, etc... they are all wide open to secessionist movements now.

The Balkanization of the Balkans will never end until literally neighbourhoods are being broken up and walled off like they were in Northern Island during the Troubles and artificial differences exaggerated to the point of no one being willing to cooperate with anyone.



So you no doubt support the creation of a Kurdistan then that will take ample chunks from land of Eastern Turkey?

Otherwise... your foot must be hurting now.

An ethnic cleansing was transpiring in Kosova and this is a fact, why the U.s got involved (whether for their own interests or because they cared) is another story. There was nothing incorrect about what loki wrote, i dont understand why you need to write all this bs?

[alb0zfinest]

I think camps are those here:

Pro-Kosovo ones:
a)Serbophobes.
b)People who believe Western media about Balkan issues.
c)People who feel themselves closer to Albanians culturally or religiously.
d)Albanians.

Anti-Kosovo ones:
a)Islamophobes&Albanophobes.
b)Slavic nationalists and Orthodoxes who support Serbia romantically.
c)Rational people against seperatism and against global vampires who are thirsty for innocent peoples' blood.

That excludes pretty much all of you Albanophobes then, so why mention it ;)

[~Nik~]

You guys seem to have an fetish for ethnic cleansings since the Anglo-American journalists have popularized this term. You are repeating it around like sub-parrots you are, and using it for the same purposes as niggers use the word racist.

[alb0zfinest]

You guys seem to have an fetish for ethnic cleansings since the Anglo-American journalists have popularized this term. You are repeating it around like sub-parrots you are, and using it for the same purposes as niggers use the word racist.

deporting/ making leave 800,000 Kosovo Albanians, burning thousands of houses, and massacring thousands of Albanians, no this cant be ethnic cleansing, what am i thinking? :rolleyes:

[Drawing-slim]

You guys seem to have an fetish for ethnic cleansings since the Anglo-American journalists have popularized this term. You are repeating it around like sub-parrots you are, and using it for the same purposes as niggers use the word racist.If it wasnt for your people's genetic deficiency on logic, we would't have have to go through this shit again and again and again in this forum.
Add also your appetite for hate and lies, then we find ourselves on the road to no-where as usual.

[rashka]

CNN and BBC brainwashing people to accomodate the take-over of Serbia's Kosovo region.

[Drawing-slim]

CNN and BBC brainwashing people to accomodate the take-over of Serbia's Kosovo region.

This is what i'm talking about genetic deficiency.
Because according to rashka and the rest, we albanians are uncapable of knowing who to hate, so according to rashka the west and bbc is braishwashing us, and serbs simply are always looking for our best interests, but we're too dumb and braishwashed to notice:thumb001:

[~Nik~]

This is what i'm talking about genetic deficiency.
Because according to rashka and the rest, we albanians are uncapable of knowing who to hate, so according to rashka the west and bbc is braishwashing us, and serbs simply are always looking for our best interests, but we're too dumb and braishwashed to notice:thumb001:

While you are hatin' around, other people are living actually. :thumb001:

[Drawing-slim]

While you are hatin' around, other people are living actually. :thumb001:

And i'm dying here, of hate of course:D

[Loki]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Kosovo

As of 1 June 2012, the Republic of Kosovo has received 93 diplomatic recognitions as an independent state. Notably, 91 out of 193 (47.2%) United Nations (UN) member states, 22 out of 27 (81%) European Union (EU) member states, 24 out of 28 (86%) NATO member states, and 30 out of 57 (53%) Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) member states have recognised Kosovo.

[~Nik~]

And i'm dying here, of hate of course:D

You're all sweaty and turning red, I can feel it from here. :thumb001:

[Drawing-slim]

Oops:icon_redface:
Lol

[kabeiros]

Yeah:rolleyes: a greek with curly black thick hair iron like strong hair in the head and mustache comparing us with pakis moving to england? No irony here..Your problem is that I compared you with Pakis, but that was not significant. I'll change it so you can feel comfortable.
Imagine Cypriot Greeks all moving to a city of England and then claiming that it should become independent...

[Grizzly]

Your problem is that I compared you with Pakis, but that was not significant. I'll change it so you can feel comfortable.
Imagine Cypriot Greeks all moving to a city of England and then claiming that it should become independent...

That's a horrible comparison malakas

[iNird]

All of the minorities are given plenty of human rights; human rights law in Kosova is quite progressive.

Since you have such insight into the human rights laws in Kosova: share it.

I think you were referring to something else, however.



I won't hate you, I will maintain the opinion that you are far more ignorant than the ones you deride for being ignorant in your opinion, however. (Why is a Bosniak living in Australia discussing this topic? Just to imitate you.)

-You are utterly wrong anyhow. There never were any "deserbianising", it is called the decentralization of Yugoslavia. One could say there was a policy of serbianisation of Kosova, however. Look up Vaso Cubrilovic's memorandum "The expulsion of the Albanians", that was the policy maintained by the Serbian intellectual elite rulers. Tito didn't decentralize Yugoslavia before after 1966, when Rankovic, the minister of internal affairs; and head of the military intelligence and the secret police, the 1971 constitutional reform and the constitution of 1974 being proof of how Yugoslavia was becoming decentralized after Rankovic. Before that Tito, and Yugoslavia as a whole, had given little real interest exempting some rhetoric and mentions here and there. Tito had in fact never even visited Kosova before 1967; just after he had expelled Rankovic from the Communist Party. Kosova under Rankovic was basically a Serbian police state with an oppressed Albanian majority.

-There never were mass migrations into Kosova during this time. If there were it would have been documented. The majority was Albanian, by a large majority at that, despite Serbian and Montenegrin colonization and other measures to change the demography. Albania was an isolated prison state; it would have been impossible for hundreds of thousands of Albanians to jump over the border. The claim is so incredibly far-fetched and unsubstantiated that it is simply astonishing.

-Which travelers are you speaking of? There were no travelers in Kosova during the 18th century. I might of course be wrong, but I doubt it. Can you give me the benefit of showing me who they were?




-Nope. The ethnic hatred started when the Serbian intellectual elite realized that the Albanians in Kosova, and Albania, Montenegro and Macedonia to lesser extent, would be a huge problem for the expansionist aspirations of their semi-independent (and later on independent) nation. From that point, they sought to somehow take care of that problem. They set up a Serbian propaganda machine. Here is one example of that from Tim Judah's Kosovo, War and Revenge.

"This was the era of Serbian national romanticism expressed in art and literature. Simultaneously though, Serbian scholars began to apply their minds to the Albanians. As the Croatian historian Ivo Banac pointed out in his seminal study The National Question in Yugoslavia, 'Not all Albanians could be expected to flee from their native homesteads,' when Kosovo was reconquered. 'As a result, Serbian propaganda simultaneously dehumanised Albanians, presenting them as utterly incapable of governing themselves and as the sort of element that ought to be exterminated, and elevated them to the standing that warranted their assimilation.' While on the one hand, then, a theory was developed which explained that a large part of the Kosovo Albanian population were really Albanianised Serbs, on the other the Albanians were denigrated, as Banac puts it as 'savages'.

So, Dr Vladan Djordjevic, a noted Serbian statesman and public health specialist, showed no restraint in this line of defamation. Citing various foreign travelers and doctors of anthroposcopy, Djordjevic had his Albanians skinny and short, possessed of gypsy and Phoenician features - indeed reminding him of the 'prehumans, who slept in trees, to which they were fastened by their tails'."

-The Albanian flag is the flag that Skenderbeu used, he took it from the Byzantine Empire, which took it from the pre-Turkic people of Asia Minor. The Habsburgs took the double-headed eagle from the Holy Roman Empire, which had taken it from the Byzantines, etc. A lot of countries use the double-headed eagle as a symbol on their flag or their coat of arms: Russia, Serbia, Montenegro and Albania for instance. This is no mere coincidence, they are all vassals of the Habsburgs!.. Then the knowledgeable, critical and logical part of my brain set in:
http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/9/9e/HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg



-You are confusing a national awakening with nationalist aspirations. I don't really see how a national awakening is negative anyway. You make no point. There never were any reason for Albanians being part in an union with other Balkan states. It was never the intention of other Balkan states to live in an union with Albanians either; just expand at the cost of the Albanians.

-Our national awakening never gained noteworthy support from the great powers exempt Austrian and German to some extent. Unfortunately for us, we had the support of the losers of history. Serbia, on the other hand, had the support of Russia, France, Britain and generally most. They had the benefit of being supported by the winners of history. The treaty of San Stefano and Berlin should say at least something quite succinctly. Moreover, when several other Balkan states (Serbia; Montenegro; and Greece being the most important of them) attacked Albania and Albanian inhabited areas there was no help to be seen.

-You are so completely wrong when it comes to the view the West had on Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was the darling of the West, and Tito was venerated by them. These are simply the words of a Yugonostalgic who tries to blame the disintegration of Yugoslavia on the West and their conspiracy. Shows how much insight you have.



-The decentralization of Yugoslavia was part of his strategy to prevent too much power to come in the hands of one group and to give each and every group more autonomy.



-It was a smart move. Something that was not a smart move was the disintegration of his smart move after his death. The largest problem in Yugoslavia was the centralization from a political and economic aspect. Yugoslavia could still probably have been if Serbian fanatical nationalism had been avoided. Speaking of avoiding, you are avoiding that by blaming in on the West because it is inconvenient for you that Yugoslavia was doomed to fail due to the Yugoslavs themselves. The disintegration of Yugoslavia stemmed from Serbia.



-Such a sweeping generalization and unsubstantiated at that. I have yet to see anyone argue that. We know that NATO has their own interests, does that matter anyway? NATO helped us, and they're not going to screw us nearly as hard as we were screwed in Yugoslavia.



-You are right in that there are economic interests and geo-political interests for the West in the Balkans. You are wrong in that they made it independent due to simply privatizing it.



-Privatization has been a problem for all post-communist states. Russia is the by far best example of that.



-Why should that even matter? You seem bitter. Isn't this kind of similar to the angry and bitter ex, friend, partner, etc. who tells you that you won't amount to anything without them?



-Yugoslavia was the pet of the West, the West loved it and Tito. Milosevic, they did not, I think that it was quite reasonable to dislike Milosevic. However, that was only after a certain time, the West, in its delusional view of Yugoslavia and a wish to keep it intact, did not see through Milosevic in time.



That is generalizing it far too much. To think that you can sum up leanings on a political issue like that. :rolleyes:



You are not the one who should control the criteria of contribution. To brush things away as not being contributions due to you disagreeing is quite lowly, you tend to do that with anyone who disagrees with you, however. You are simply a tunnel-minded, delusional, arrogant, incredibly biased Yugonostalgic, and I'm not exaggerating.



1.

-No, they Ottomans did not settle Albanians from neighbouring areas; there is no documentation of that. There were however migrations of Albanians from the mountains of northern Albania; this was merely filling a void. Still, demographic changes are common in history, and especially that of the Balkans. Ironically, the Serbs are guilty of the same thing they that accuse the Albanians of, some keywords: Montenegro, Vojvodina, Bosnia, Croatia.

-There had already been an Albanian presence in Kosova before the 1600's, that is established by Ottoman defters and Serbian documents. We even know that there was a Slavization of Albanians in Kosova due to the latter. In a Serbian document from 1210, the names of 208 individuals of a specific area are given: of these, 154 have Serb names, and 54 have Albanian and Vlach names; 26%. In another document from 1313-1314, there are 444 Serb names and 117 Albanian and Vlach names; 25%. That is of course without taking certain factors into account. Mainly that Albanians and Vlachs were in the majority not landtied serfs and peasants like the Serbs, they were pastoral and semi-nomadic people, which made them hard to tax, which is what these consensuses were about. There is much that is written on that topic.

2.

-The Great Serbian Serbian Migration of the late 1600's is a myth. Funnily enough, a large amount of Albanians from Kosova had also migrated to Hungary during this period.

So much win.

/thread

[Minesweeper]

Unfortunately, Albanians have sold the land they took from us to foreign exploiters.

Even though they are ''natives'', they don't seem connected to the land like Serbian ''invaders''. The land is being robbed and polluted before their eyes!

[el22]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Kosovo

As of 1 June 2012, the Republic of Kosovo has received 93 diplomatic recognitions as an independent state. Notably, 91 out of 193 (47.2%) United Nations (UN) member states, 22 out of 27 (81%) European Union (EU) member states, 24 out of 28 (86%) NATO member states, and 30 out of 57 (53%) Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) member states have recognised Kosovo.

... and those are 99% of the states with which one wants to have relations.

[mswoods]

NEGATIVE. one of the most hideous parts of european history. end of story.

[Grizzly]

Lets be cereal if the Kosovar Albanians were Catholic not a single shit would be given..

[Grizzly]

NEGATIVE. one of the most hideous parts of european history. end of story.

None more hideous than the rape of Constantinople... I mean Istanbul :D

[Crn Volk]

Kosovo is Serbian

[mswoods]

None more hideous than the rape of Constantinople... I mean Istanbul :D

i hope u mean the rape of hundreds greek women (part of the ethnic greek inhabitants on Constaninople), along with 5000 greek homes and 100 churches that burnt there and the corpses that disinterred and knifed again and again by turks for days, back in 1955.

and yes this is one of the most ""glorious"" memories of turkish history...i must admit they r lovely...no surprise that albanians get along so well with them.

[el22]

NEGATIVE. one of the most hideous parts of european history. end of story.

You're right about one thing. The story about whether Kosova should exists as an independent state has come to an end.

[Partizan]

i hope u mean the rape of hundreds greek women (part of the ethnic greek inhabitants on Constaninople), along with 5000 greek homes and 100 churches that burnt there and the corpses that disinterred and knifed again and again by turks for days, back in 1955.

and yes this is one of the most ""glorious"" memories of turkish history...i must admit they r lovely...no surprise that albanians get along so well with them.


Yeah,not to forget Greeks raped hundreds of Turkish women,killed thousands of Turkish civilians and burnt/looted hundreds of Turkish towns between 1919-1922 also.It was "Liberation of Ionia" according to you :bored:

I think this guy mentioned Fourth Crusade(which your European brothers have done)

About Albanians,Albanian iNird is one of the most Turkophobic members here.Also two Turks(I'm one of them) voted "negative" here.

[el22]

Also two Turks(I'm one of them) voted "negative" here.

Yeah, this will give you points in Greek's eyes.:rolleyes:

[Partizan]

Yeah, this will give you points in Greek's eyes.:rolleyes:

LOL I don't except point from them...I discussed with Greeks like dandelion and kabeiros here and I'm not really a Hellenophile.

However I don't like that people think Albanians and Turks are close buddies...

Even some Albanians here prove that,Albanians aren't that friendly to Turks.

[Ushtari]

Kosovo is Serbian
Serbs barely make up 5% of teh population, so i think not :coffee:

[alb0zfinest]

LOL I don't except point from them...I discussed with Greeks lie dandelion and kabeiros here and I'm not really a Hellenophile.

However I don't like that people think Albanians and Turks are close buddies...

Even some Albanians here prove that,Albanians aren't that friendly to Turks.

I wonder why? :rolleyes:

[Pecheneg]

i hope u mean the rape of hundreds greek women (part of the ethnic greek inhabitants on Constaninople), along with 5000 greek homes and 100 churches that burnt there and the corpses that disinterred and knifed again and again by turks for days, back in 1955.

and yes this is one of the most ""glorious"" memories of turkish history...i must admit they r lovely...no surprise that albanians get along so well with them.

Is whining on internet greek tradition or what?
Yea we kicked your asses and ruled you for centuries but it was in the past, get over it. focus on future!


ps: you are probably talking about fourth crusade (aka sack of constantinople by crusaders)

Thus began the sack of Constantinople, the richest city of all Europe. Nobody controlled the troops. Thousands of defenseless civilians were killed. Women, even nuns, were raped by the crusading army and churches, monasteries and convents were looted. The very altars of churches were smashed and torn to pieces for their gold and marble by warriors who had sworn to fight in service of the Christian faith.
Even the magnificent Santa Sophia was ransacked by the crusaders. Works of tremendous value were destroyed merely for their material value. One such work was the bronze statue of Hercules, created by the famous Lysippus, court sculptor of no lesser than Alexander the Great. The statue was melted down for its bronze. It is but one of a mass of bronze artworks which was melted down by those blinded by greed.
The loss of art treasures the world suffered in the sack of Constantinople is immeasurable.
It is true that the Venetians looted, but their actions were by far more restrained. Doge Dandolo still appeared to have control over his men. Rather than wantonly destroying all around, the Venetians stole religious relics and works of art which they would later take to Venice to adorn their own churches.

[mswoods]

i have no idea where all this conversation for greece and turkey started from!i just noticed that turks here tend to support albanians in the Kosovo-issue, which proves how wrong they r in general (i believe)...anyway how the heck i will keep myself calm when people talk like that around me :

[QUOTE=Pecheneg;1065469]Is whining on internet greek tradition or what?
Yea we kicked your asses and ruled you for centuries but it was in the past, get over it.

[Anatolian Eagle]

i have no idea where all this conversation for greece and turkey started from!i just noticed that turks here tend to support albanians in the Kosovo-issue, which proves how wrong they r in general (i believe)...anyway how the heck i will keep myself calm when people talk like that around me :

Well hello dear. It's because because you mentioned "what Turks done to Istanbul" (!) and he wanted to show another brutal face of history from another side you forget about. Yes, Turkey and Albania will keep supporting each other, I hope you as a Greek don't have a problem with that since we don't question Serbia-Greece relations.

I hope this was kind enough :rolleyes:

[mswoods]

Well hello dear. It's because because you mentioned "what Turks done to Istanbul" (!) and he wanted to show another brutal face of history from another side you forget about. Yes, Turkey and Albania will keep supporting each other, I hope you as a Greek don't have a problem with that since we don't question Serbia-Greece relations.

I hope this was kind enough :rolleyes:

yes it was :rolleyes:

i mentioned that because because somebody was ironic enough that needed an answer like that. anyway the use of english language maybe make it more complicated :p

yeah u dont have to question serbian-greek relations but it happens to have the right with our side in this case so this u say is pointless...

[Óttar]

There should not be a separate nation-state created every time an ethno-religious group gets a numerical majority.

[Grizzly]

There should not be a separate nation-state created every time an ethno-religious group gets a numerical majority.

That "ethno-religious" group has been a majority for about a century now. Every other former Yugoslav nation got their independence and some less deserving(Bosnians and Montenegrins are barely 50% in their own countries) but everybody decides to make an uproar over Kosova.. If you deny independence for Kosova you must do the same for Montenegro, Bosnia, Macedonia, Croatia, etc...

It's a huge double standard.

[Crn Volk]

That "ethno-religious" group has been a majority for about a century now. Every other former Yugoslav nation got their independence and some less deserving(Bosnians and Montenegrins are barely 50% in their own countries) but everybody decides to make an uproar over Kosova.. If you deny independence for Kosova you must do the same for Montenegro, Bosnia, Macedonia, Croatia, etc...

It's a huge double standard.

Kosovo was a province of Serbia, as was/is Vojvodina. The others you mention were Republics of the state who had a constitutional right to leave the federation at any time if they wished - the provinces did not have this right.

[Anatolian Eagle]

yes it was :rolleyes:

i mentioned that because because somebody was ironic enough that needed an answer like that. anyway the use of english language maybe make it more complicated :p

yeah u dont have to question serbian-greek relations but it happens to have the right with our side in this case so this u say is pointless...

Ok.

[Anatolian Eagle]

However I don't like that people think Albanians and Turks are close buddies...

Even some Albanians here prove that,Albanians aren't that friendly to Turks.

Btw no offense but I don't get purpose of this post... I mean it's ok you don't recognize Kosovo but why do you want Turks and Albanians to be hostile/unfriendly to each other? It's far from reality if you ask me...

[Partizan]

Btw no offense but I don't get purpose of this post... I mean it's ok you don't recognize Kosovo but why do you want Turks and Albanians to be hostile/unfriendly to each other? It's far from reality if you ask me...

I don't want but it's the truth...

%30+ of Albanians are Turkophobes.

I can understand Greeks being Turkophobe,leave history alone we still have problems(Cyprus,Kardak,West Thrace etc.)

I can understand Serbs being Turkophobe as well.Turkey was the one of first states who recognised Kosovo and who even involved in NATO bombing against Serbia.

But WTF problems have Albanians like iNird and Manolo?They aren't only ones,there are many Albanians in other networks and IRL who dislike Turks.We could have some problems 600 years ago but it was my country who recognised their fake,NATO puppet state and many Turks(like you) feel themselves closer to Albos.However many of them still have hostile towards to Turks.

[el22]

yes it was :rolleyes:

i mentioned that because because somebody was ironic enough that needed an answer like that. anyway the use of english language maybe make it more complicated :p

yeah u dont have to question serbian-greek relations but it happens to have the right with our side in this case so this u say is pointless...

Well, half of your "right" was bombed by almost any west state. But we already know what you have in common. And it's not just religion, neither the hate versus Albanians. It's something else, more basic.

[el22]

There should not be a separate nation-state created every time an ethno-religious group gets a numerical majority.

Kosova was occupied by Serbs only a century ago. So it's not just a random phenomena when an ethno-religious group gets a numerical majority.

[mswoods]

Well, half of your "right" was bombed by almost any west state. But we already know what you have in common. And it's not just religion, neither the hate versus Albanians. It's something else, more basic.

i know that we have many things in common but whats that sth else that u mean?

[Partizan]

Of course we have all the right to hate you. You left us in OE decline the early 20 century with no stock of weapons to get slaughtered by your beloved Serb and Greek expansionists from north and south.

Do you think Ottomans could protect themselves in this era?In Balkan Wars,even our land connection was cutted up with Albania...Come with a reasonable thing.In foreign politics,our dumb politicians always support you.

[Anatolian Eagle]

I don't want but it's the truth...

%30+ of Albanians are Turkophobes.

I can understand Greeks being Turkophobe,leave history alone we still have problems(Cyprus,Kardak,West Thrace etc.)

I can understand Serbs being Turkophobe as well.Turkey was the one of first states who recognised Kosovo and who even involved in NATO bombing against Serbia.

But WTF problems have Albanians like iNird and Manolo?They aren't only ones,there are many Albanians in other networks and IRL who dislike Turks.We could have some problems 600 years ago but it was my country who recognised their fake,NATO puppet state and many Turks(like you) feel themselves closer to Albos.However many of them still have hostile towards to Turks.

Yes you're right about Serbs and Greeks, it's somewhat reasonable. But I don't know how you met 30%+ of Albos. You can face every kind of people through internet, which infact doesn't represent majority, but there are also ones like Sturmgewehr, Drawing-live, Tonsor, Horten etc. Even in another forum there was Albanian guy which I often cooperated with against a "Lithuanian" freak who love to write bullshit about both nations and that Albo was very positive about Turkey. I'm just saying culturally Albanians closest and least hostile nation to Turkey in Balkans. Leaving my small Albanian side beside, I've also got a very good friend of Albanian origin living in Turkey (we studied in same class) and I've often came across those Albanians in Turkey who are perfect patriots (yes this includes non-assimiliated Albanians in Turkey). Those two countries are infact historically and today perfect partners in my opinion.

I don't think one can ignore years of common heritage because of few guys in internet, but there's of course nothing wrong with opposing Kosovo for political reasons.

[Anatolian Eagle]

Of course we have all the right to hate you. You left us in OE decline the early 20 century with no stock of weapons to get slaughtered by your beloved Serb and Greek expansionists from north and south.

Ottomans couldn't even protects themselves back then lol, since Albanians had no borders left with OE and couldn't recieve any further support, Albania had to declare independece in order to save themselves from their surrounding neighbours. Why would OE fancy Serbs and Greeks back then which attacked them in First Balkan War? There was basically nothing OE could do about it.

[Partizan]

Yes you're right about Serbs and Greeks. But I don't know how you met 30%+ of Albos. You can face every kind of people through internet, which infact doesn't represent majority, but there are also ones like Sturmgewehr, Drawing-live, Tonsor, Horten etc. Even in another forum there was Albanian guy which I often cooperated with against a "Lithuanian" freak who love to write bullshit about both nations and that Albo was very positive about Turkey. I'm just saying culturally Albanians closest and least hostile nation to Turkey in Balkans. Leaving my small Albanian side beside, I've also got a very good friend of Albanian origin living in Turkey (we studied in same class) and I've often came across those Albanians in Turkey who are perfect patriots (yes this includes non-assimiliated Albanians in Turkey). Those two countries are infact historically and today perfect partners in my opinion.

I don't think one can ignore years of common heritage because of few guys in internet, but there's of course nothing wrong with opposing Kosovo for political reasons.

I have nothing against Albanians in Turkey.However in EVERY forum or network(YouTube,Facebook) you can find Turkophobe Albanians.First of all,most of Christian Albanians(their number isn't small (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Albania))

Also most non-religious Albanians generally don't care about Turks or dislike.

Muslim Albanians like,however not all...

[el22]

i know that we have many things in common but whats that sth else that u mean?

I don’t know if it’s time for me to be banned, because you can be banned here even if you don’t call names, nor lie, but simply for mentioning some bitter truths.
But I’ll give you a hint: it has something to do with that “righteous” feeling that you mentioned earlier.


I have nothing against Albanians in Turkey.However in EVERY forum or network(YouTube,Facebook) you can find Turkophobe Albanians.First of all,most of Christian Albanians(their number isn't small (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Albania))

Also most non-religious Albanians generally don't care about Turks or dislike.

Muslim Albanians like,however not all...

Well, I'm a (presumably) Orthodox Albanian, which means from south, which means I only need to pretend that I need to think which side will I take in a conflict between Turks and Greeks.
I don't need to go deep in history. All I need to know is how are treated Albanians by Turks and Greeks today.

[Adrian]

Do you think Ottomans could protect themselves in this era?In Balkan Wars,even our land connection was cutted up with Albania...Come with a reasonable thing.In foreign politics,our dumb politicians always support you.

You should understand that there is difference between OE and modern Turkey.

Albanians don't have any reason to be grateful toward OE (because of numerous reasons), but things change if we talk about today's Albanian - Turkey relations. Our relations now are of strategic, economic and geopolitical interests. Turkey, together with USA and EU has contributed a lot in Kosovo issue. Albanians are grateful about that.

[Grizzly]

I don't want but it's the truth...

%30+ of Albanians are Turkophobes.

I can understand Greeks being Turkophobe,leave history alone we still have problems(Cyprus,Kardak,West Thrace etc.)

I can understand Serbs being Turkophobe as well.Turkey was the one of first states who recognised Kosovo and who even involved in NATO bombing against Serbia.

But WTF problems have Albanians like iNird and Manolo?They aren't only ones,there are many Albanians in other networks and IRL who dislike Turks.We could have some problems 600 years ago but it was my country who recognised their fake,NATO puppet state and many Turks(like you) feel themselves closer to Albos.However many of them still have hostile towards to Turks.

Lmao, Bashing Albanians won't make you European brotha.. Some of you Turks act like Nordicists here

And why do you think some Albanians dislike Turks? It can't be that Turks terrorized the region for 500 years. Impossible!

[Partizan]

Well, I'm a (presumably) Orthodox Albanian, which means from south, which means I only need to pretend that I need to think which side will I take in a conflict between Turks and Greeks.
I don't need to go deep in history. All I need to know is how are treated Albanians by Turks and Greeks today.

One example is enough...

Greeks claim southern parts of Albania however Turks don't want an inch from Albanian terrorities...


You should understand that there is difference between OE and modern Turkey.

Albanians don't have any reason to be grateful toward OE (because of numerous reasons), but things change if we talk about today's Albanian - Turkey relations. Our relations now are of strategic, economic and geopolitical interests. Turkey, together with USA and EU has contributed a lot in Kosovo issue. Albanians are grateful about that.

Yeah,you're right...

Together with imperialist powers,we helped seperation of Kosovo.That's not something I proud with honestly.But since many Turks proud,it's hard to understand many Albanians still dislike Turks.


Lmao, Bashing Albanians won't make you European brotha..

And why do you think some Albanians dislike Turks? It can't be that Turks terrorized the region for 500 years. Impossible!

I don't want to getting accepted in some club.I'm just stating facts.

Holy Roman Empire oppressed Protestants,Nazi Germany destroyed half of Europe etc...

However,except in Internet,other Europeans don't have problem with Germans.

Don't come to me with issues of 15.th century please.

[Drawing-slim]

You turks seem to have e bigger issue. Why do you assume we should like you?
You gave serbs and greeks rights to learn and parctice their language but ottomans denied that to albanians.

[Partizan]

You turks seem to have e bigger issue. Why do you assume we should like you?
You gave serbs and greeks rights to learn and parctice their language but ottomans denied that to albanians.

Ok,I stop arguing...

You guys can dislike us as much as you want :thumb001:

[mswoods]

[QUOTE=el22;1066150]I don’t know if it’s time for me to be banned, because you can be banned here even if you don’t call names, nor lie, but simply for mentioning some bitter truths.
But I’ll give you a hint: it has something to do with that “righteous” feeling that you mentioned earlier.


I think i got it, although this claim cant be based in any fact...
U probably mistake the sincere fellowship between serbs and greeks that caused basically cause of the very similar situations that happened to these 2 nations during the past years...this is why we totally understand each other and support them on the kosovo issue!on the other hand i dont see sth like this happens btw turks and albanians, u two r the ones that r ""friends"" (or better "frenemies") because u dislike greece, and this seams to be ur only thing in common...

btw i believe that nowadays greeks dont feel so bad about albanians, however albanians keep having the opposite thing in mind and this is how this problem-situation survives!

anyway i am afraid that if i continue writting more i will be totally off the issue, so i stop here...

[el22]

I don’t know if it’s time for me to be banned, because you can be banned here even if you don’t call names, nor lie, but simply for mentioning some bitter truths.
But I’ll give you a hint: it has something to do with that “righteous” feeling that you mentioned earlier.


I think i got it, although this claim cant be based in any fact...
U probably mistake the sincere fellowship between serbs and greeks that caused basically cause of the very similar situations that happened to these 2 nations during the past years...this is why we totally understand each other and support them on the kosovo issue!on the other hand i dont see sth like this happens btw turks and albanians, u two r the ones that r ""friends"" (or better "frenemies") because u dislike greece, and this seams to be ur only thing in common...

btw i believe that nowadays greeks dont feel so bad about albanians, however albanians keep having the opposite thing in mind and this is how this problem-situation survives!

anyway i am afraid that if i continue writting more i will be totally off the issue, so i stop here...

No, you didn't get it. The "righteous" thing has nothing to do with sharing the same things or having common enemies. But I don't want to go off topic here either.

[iNird]

Yeah,not to forget Greeks raped hundreds of Turkish women,killed thousands of Turkish civilians and burnt/looted hundreds of Turkish towns between 1919-1922 also.It was "Liberation of Ionia" according to you :bored:

I think this guy mentioned Fourth Crusade(which your European brothers have done)

About Albanians,Albanian iNird is one of the most Turkophobic members here.Also two Turks(I'm one of them) voted "negative" here.

I'm not "Turkophobic." I don't fear Turks or anyone or any group for that matter. If you were trying to say I'm anti-Turkish then you're wrong again.

Relax kiddo.

:bored:

[Óttar]

I fail to see why Kosovo isn't just annexed by Albania if 92% of the Kosovar population is ethnic Albanian. There is no geographical boundary between the two areas, they are contiguous. :confused:

[Lena]

... against a "Lithuanian" freak who love to write bullshit about both nations...

Oh, come on...Lithuanian you talk about isn't freak :) He just dislikes Islam to the point that he finds hostile all countries who're predominantly Muslim.Other person... I don't even wish to comment.

Edit: I don't think this is the place to talk about any of them, Breath :) Besides, all I had to say I said directly over there.

[Arthas]

I fail to see why Kosovo isn't just annexed by Albania if 92% of the Kosovar population is ethnic Albanian. There is no geographical boundary between the two areas, they are contiguous. :confused:

Because its likely that Serbia would invade if Albania annexed Kosovo, because they would see it as a direct invasion of Serbia, and Serbia is much more powerful than Kosovo and Albania combined and there's no guarantee of NATO help so war is not a good idea.

By the way, I'd just like to voice my opinion that Kosovo is not Serbian land and anyone who tries to justify Serbian control of Kosovo has the IQ of an Abo.

[arcticwolf]

I fail to see why Kosovo isn't just annexed by Albania if 92% of the Kosovar population is ethnic Albanian. There is no geographical boundary between the two areas, they are contiguous. :confused:

Deviating from the topic slightly. If those are the conditions that warrant annexation of territory then let's take a look at the local situation in the States. Then you must have no problem with Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California becoming part of Mexico. Do you support those states becoming part of Mexico? They were a part of Mexico less than 2 centuries ago, and the Latino population is or will be the majority of the population in those states very shortly.

[Ushtari]

Deviating from the topic slightly. If those are the conditions that warrant annexation of territory then let's take a look at the local situation in the States. Then you must have no problem with Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California becoming part of Mexico. Do you support those states becoming part of Mexico? They were a part of Mexico less than 2 centuries ago, and the Latino population is or will be the majority of the population in those states very shortly.
Though Kosovo is historically Albanian land, not to mention that over 90% of the population is Albanian.

Its also worth mentioning that Kosovo was illegaly annexed to Serbia and recent events have shown that the government of Serbia can not guarantee safety for its inhabitants, you can read more here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=305576&postcount=485).

[arcticwolf]

Though Kosovo is historically Albanian land, not to mention that over 90% of the population is Albanian.

Its also worth mentioning that Kosovo was illegaly annexed to Serbia and recent events have shown that the government of Serbia can not guarantee safety for its inhabitants, you can read more here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=305576&postcount=485).

I'm not gonna get into this. My point is an American should better think before voicing his opinion, as America has no high ground to stand on this issue.

[Ushtari]

I'm not gonna get into this. My point is an American should better think before voicing his opinion, as America has no high ground to stand on this issue.
It was more to show you have stupid it is to compare Kosovo with the states in America.

[arcticwolf]

It was more to show you have stupid it is to compare Kosovo with the states in America.

No it is not. Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California WERE a part of Mexico actually. Those lands were conquered and incorporated into USA. It is a valid point.

[Ushtari]

No it is not. Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California WERE a part of Mexico actually. Those lands were conquered and incorporated USA. It is a valid point.
Did america then terrorize, expel, murder and rape their inhabitants?


-Kosovo is majority(by far) Albanian
-The population(Albanian) were subjected to terrorism by the government of Serbia.


So not, its not a valid point.