What if Yugoslavia still existed?

[Xenomorph]

Yugoslavia with the 1991 borders, I mean, and it was a functioning country. How do you think it would fit into the global puzzle?

[Celine]

With the '91. borders?

Seriously?

[Szegedist]

Then the war would happen some time in the future.

[Methmatician]

I'd still be living there I guess. And I wouldn't be as fluent in English. And I'd probably be Muslim.

[Guapo]

US wanted destruction of Yugoslavia.

I would be happy if it was still around.

[Albion]

The region would probably be more peaceful and prosperous.

[Pontios]

If the US did not want to destroy it, Yugoslavia today would have been a powerful country in the Balkans. There would also be less conflict among ourselves in the Balkans. There would be no Kosovo, no FYROM, no lies...

[alfieb]

Well, thank goodness for the U.S. then, because Albanians in Kosovo shouldn't be ruled by Yugoslavs.

A Yugoslavia that comprised of Bosnia+Croatia+Serbia+Montenegro wouldn't be a bad thing, but Kosovo+FYROM+Slovenia shouldn't be a part of it. They're distinctly different peoples.

[Albion]

Well, thank goodness for the U.S. then, because Albanians in Kosovo shouldn't be ruled by Yugoslavs.

A Yugoslavia that comprised of Bosnia+Croatia+Serbia+Montenegro wouldn't be a bad thing, but Kosovo+FYROM+Slovenia shouldn't be a part of it. They're distinctly different peoples.

It'd be a small price to pay for having avoided some of the wars and not having the much less prosperous Balkans today.

[alfieb]

It'd be a small price to pay for having avoided some of the wars and not having the much less prosperous Balkans today.
Some of the wars, because with or without the U.S., Milosevic was a mentalcase with the goal of "Serbia Strong!!!!111" at the expense of everyone else.

[wvwvw]

Well, thank goodness for the U.S. then, because Albanians in Kosovo shouldn't be ruled by Yugoslavs.

A Yugoslavia that comprised of Bosnia+Croatia+Serbia+Montenegro wouldn't be a bad thing, but Kosovo+FYROM+Slovenia shouldn't be a part of it. They're distinctly different peoples.

Υου don't know what you are talking about alfieb. Until 1989 Kosovo Albanians enjoyed a high degree of autonomy within Yugoslavia.

" Beginning in 1961, the proportion of Serbs in the province fell. During the decades 1961–1971 and 1971–1981 the proportion fell at the same rate of about 5 percent per decade.

Why did the proportion of Serbs decline in Kosovo? Numerous reasons for this decrease have been cited. Two of the most prevalent are: (1) the birthrate of the Albanian community of Kosovo, 35 per 1,000; and (2) the migration of the Serbs from the region. There was a numerical decrease of Serbs as well as a proportional decrease between 1971 and 1981. Controversies arose over the increase in Albanian birthrates and the cultural norms ascribed to these increases; there was also controversy concerning the reasons for the Serb exodus from Kosovo. We will first turn our attention to the Albanian community’s birthrates and consider the reasons for Serbian migration in another section below.

In 1979, Kosovo had the highest birthrate in Yugoslavia and in Europe, 26.1 per 100 people, compared to 8.6 for the national Yugoslav average.(8) During the 1980s, the discourse in the media in Serbia concerning the birthrates among Albanian women took on racial overtones. As Julie Mertus and others have noted, the study of higher Albanian birthrates has often been presented as a conscious decision on the part of Albanians to reproduce rapidly in order to change the demographic picture of Kosovo. In this regard, Albanian women are portrayed as baby factories. In fact, the difference can be ascribed to patterns of rural and urban communities, cultural and societal norms and expectations. It must be noted that Albanians are a larger percentage of the rural population in Kosovo. Mertus points out that urban Albanian women and other urban women in Yugoslavia had nearly identical birthrates.(9)"

[alfieb]

Υου don't know what you are talking about alfieb. Until 1989 Kosovo Albanians enjoyed a high degree of autonomy within Yugoslavia.
What is your point?

Sicily has autonomy from Italy. Greenland has autonomy from Denmark.

Greenlandic people are not Danes. Sicilians are not Italian. KOSOVAR ALBANIANS ARE NOT SOUTH SLAVS. Majority-Albanian regions should not be part of a Slavic country. Autonomy was not enough. Kosovo should either be its own republic or part of the Republic of Albania.

[el22]

I'm just curious. What did USA to start the destruction of yougoslavia?

[Albion]

What is your point?

Sicily has autonomy from Italy. Greenland has autonomy from Denmark.

Greenlandic people are not Danes. Sicilians are not Italian. KOSOVAR ALBANIANS ARE NOT SOUTH SLAVS. Majority-Albanian regions should not be part of a Slavic country. Autonomy was not enough. Kosovo should either be its own republic or part of the Republic of Albania.

Kosovo was a province, thus had a degree of autonomy.

[wvwvw]

What is your point?

Sicily has autonomy from Italy. Greenland has autonomy from Denmark.

Greenlandic people are not Danes. Sicilians are not Italian. KOSOVAR ALBANIANS ARE NOT SOUTH SLAVS. Majority-Albanian regions should not be part of a Slavic country. Autonomy was not enough. Kosovo should either be its own republic or part of the Republic of Albania.

They weren't always the majority, they can thank their sky high birth rates for that. They employ the exact same tactic now in "Macedonia"

[alfieb]

They weren't always the majority, they can thank their sky high birth rates for that. They employ the exact same tactic now in "Macedonia"
Yes, it was majority-Serb 500 years ago.

And Southern Italy was majority-Greek 1,000 years ago.

But in Yugoslavia, Kosovo was an Albanian region.

[Gospodine]

Well, thank goodness for the U.S. then, because Albanians in Kosovo shouldn't be ruled by Yugoslavs.

The US did not intervene in the Former Yugoslavia because of the plight of the Albanians (nor Bosnians). That's the usual smokescreen ignorant outside observers fall for.

The US intervened because Yugoslavia and its successor-state Serbia had outlived their usefulness as Cold War-era buffer states and it was readily apparent that Yugoslavia was the one socialist country that would not overthrow its own government after the fall of the wall.

The logical move was to bait the 3 main constituent groups into self-destruction by installing and supporting extremist/right-wing nationalist leaders in Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia (spending close to $77.2 million funding opposition nationalist elements) who would play upon historical and cultural grievances amongst the three states to entice them into war.

The 1991 Foreign Operations Appropriations Law 101-513 was the document that signed Yugoslavia's death warrant.

For the umpteenth time, quit talking out of your ass on this issue.


Some of the wars, because with or without the U.S., Milosevic was a mentalcase with the goal of "Serbia Strong!!!!111" at the expense of everyone else.

Don't you have some remote, Sicilian village to analyse and find pictures of the inhabitants on Facebook?

[alfieb]

Don't you have some remote, Sicilian village to analyse and find pictures of the inhabitants on Facebook?
That's Sikeliot. I haven't posted a single photo from Facebook since I joined here.

[morski]

Serboslavia was a fake state anyway. Cold War era tool.

[Gospodine]

Yes, it was majority-Serb 500 years ago.

Try prior to WW2 (during which I might add the Albanian puppet state of Fascist Italy eliminated somewhere in the region of 200,000 to 400,000 Serbs from Kosovo).
Some reading for you:http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?56889-Kosovo-positive-or-negative&p=1054922&viewfull=1#post1054922

[el22]

The US intervened because Yugoslavia and its successor-state Serbia had outlived their usefulness as Cold War-era buffer states and it was readily apparent that Yugoslavia was the one socialist country that would not overthrow its own government after the fall of the wall.

The logical move was to bait the 3 main constituent groups into self-destruction by installing and supporting extremist/right-wing nationalist leaders in Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia (spending close to $77.2 million funding opposition nationalist elements) who would play upon historical and cultural grievances amongst the three states to entice them into war.


So, USA was jealous about the robustness of yougoslavia, and therefore decided that it was worth it to sacrifice < $77.2 million for the destruction of its archenemy?

[alfieb]

Try prior to WW2 (during which I might add the Albanian puppet state of Fascist Italy eliminated somewhere in the region of 200,000 to 400,000 Serbs from Kosovo).
Some reading for you:http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?56889-Kosovo-positive-or-negative&p=1054922&viewfull=1#post1054922


WW2 was 1939-1945.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/26/kosovo.serbia

Kosovo remained Ottoman territory until it was conquered by Serbian forces in 1912. Serbs would say "liberated"; but even their own estimates put the Orthodox Serb population at less than 25%. The majority population was Albanian, and did not welcome Serb rule, so "conquered" seems the right word.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Ethnic_Kosovo_1911.gif

[Gospodine]

Serboslavia was a fake state anyway. Cold War era tool.

You're right. Yugoslavs should have lived like Bulgarians under Zhivkov or Albanians under Hoxha. Tens of thousands of dissidents dead, no relations with the outside world, taking it up the ass from the Soviets, ass backwards economy, standard of living on par with Turkmenistan.

Your only beef with Yugoslavia is that in 60 years Macedonians achieved more than Bulgaria did in 600 years.

[morski]

You're right. Yugoslavs should have lived like Bulgarians under Zhivkov or Albanians under Hoxha. Tens of thousands of dissidents dead, no relations with the outside world, taking it up the ass from the Soviets, ass backwards economy, standard of living on par with Turkmenistan.

Your only beef with Yugoslavia is that in 60 years Macedonians achieved more than Bulgaria did in 600 years.

Bullshit.

[el22]

So, Gospodine, is this the essence of your point?


So, USA was jealous about the robustness of yougoslavia, and therefore decided that it was worth it to sacrifice < $77.2 million for the destruction of its archenemy?

[Gospodine]

So, USA was jealous about the robustness of yougoslavia, and therefore decided that it was worth it to sacrifice < $77.2 million for the destruction of its archenemy?

That roughly equals the cost of one day's bombing of Serbia during the Kosovo War. So if you think money has ever been an inhibitor to American Foreign Policy decisions, think again.

I just outlined why Yugoslavia was actively undermined by the West; it's not a matter of debate but a matter of public record. Either educate yourself on the history of it or fuck off from the discussion.


WW2 was 1939-1945.

^ Finally, something out of your mouth that isn't complete horse shit.

Like I said, if you factor in Albania's displacement and murder of Serbs in Kosovo during WW2; and all the Albanian border-jumpers during Yugoslavia then it's blatantly evident why Kosovo rapidly became majority Albanian after WW2. But only after.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/26/kosovo.serbia

Kosovo remained Ottoman territory until it was conquered by Serbian forces in 1912. Serbs would say "liberated"; but even their own estimates put the Orthodox Serb population at less than 25%. The majority population was Albanian, and did not welcome Serb rule, so "conquered" seems the right word.


Noel Malcom :rotfl:

[meAyin-sixteen]

I'm just curious. What did USA to start the destruction of yougoslavia?


lf you can't afford the loan you could end up losing your state, but unfortunatelly loans are usually not written off if you die...

[el22]

That roughly equals the cost of one day's bombing of Serbia during the Kosovo War. So if you think money has ever been an inhibitor to American Foreign Policy decisions, think again.

I just outlined why Yugoslavia was actively undermined by the West; it's not a matter of debate but a matter of public record. Either educate yourself on the history of it or fuck off from the discussion.


I'm trying to educate myself, so, what exactly did the west to undermine yougoslavia?

[alfieb]

Who cares about Noel Malcolm? It was your own country who conducted the census.

If 1912 isn't enough for you, how about 1921?

According to the Yugoslavian census of 1921, Kosovo was 21% Orthodox, and 26% spoke a Slavic language. Yes, it was the Italians and Tito who stole Kosovo from you in the 1940s and 1950s! :rolleyes:

[Insuperable]

It was a more than a descent country and it was only going up, so stricktly hypothetically I could say only the best if ethnic problems
were solved and if the Yugoslav identity wasn't put upon the people.

That US and Germany were involved in the breakup of Yugoslavia to me is just an another conspracy theory, but I am opened about the possibility because after Tito died tensions (yes, tensions existed) between nations were dramatically increased that someone could think they were engineered. It is more likely that the backwardness of Balkan inhabitants resurfaced and like Huszar said the war would happen in the future. Anyway, who knows.

[riverman]

We'd all be driving yugos and speaking Chinese.

[Gospodine]

I'm trying to educate myself, so, what exactly did the west to undermine yougoslavia?

The same things they're doing to Syria and Iran; which they did to Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

For a very brief overview, see this: http://www.us-uk-interventions.org/Yugoslavia.html
This:http://www.iacenter.org/folder02/hidden_em.htm
And especially this: http://www.zianet.com/lapaz/yugo1.html

I know Albania was cut off from the rest of the world for about 60 years but seriously, but your level of ignorance is something special.

When I have more time to get into mud-slinging matches with you peasants, I'll link to some older posts of mine.


Bullshit.

The Bulgarian-Albanian brotherhood rears its ugly head once again.

You guys are a broken record of same tired, selfish, nationalistic nonsense.

[Insuperable]

The same things they're doing to Syria and Iran; which they did to Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

For a very brief overview, see this: http://www.us-uk-interventions.org/Yugoslavia.html

I know Albania was cut off from the rest of the world for about 60 years but seriously, but your level of ignorance is something special.

When I have more time to get into mud-slinging matches with you peasants, I'll link to some older posts of mine.



The Bulgarian-Albanian brotherhood rears its ugly head once again.

You guys are a broken record of same tired, selfish, nationalistic nonsense.

Gospodine, what would you say if you hadn't watch The Weigh of Chain? It is nothin more, but a Michael Moore style movie.

[Don Arb]

Yugoslavia was powerful and prosperous country when it was leaded by a croatian (Tito) who menaged very well all the nations to keep together as brothers, even albanians somehow started to be loyal, as soon as the serbs got in to the power they destroyed everything, thats obviously.

[morski]

The Bulgarian-Albanian brotherhood rears its ugly head once again.

You guys are a broken record of same tired, selfish, nationalistic nonsense.

That's a bit of an overstatement. You praising the failed Yugoslav state is like a broken record as well.

I stand by what I said earlier. Yugoslavia was a fake state, built by militant communist partisans with the support of the allied countries in WWII as a buffer zone between the West and East, tens of thousands of dead dissidents, hundreds of thousands sent to prison camps like Goli Otok. UDBA, KOS.

Macedonia was the poorest one of the republics, so saying they achieved more in 60 years than what Bulgaria achieved in 600 is just hilarious.

Anyway, Yugoslavia was undone by the same forces that made it in the first place.

To the OP - ако баба ми беше мъжка, щеше да има дръжка.

[Gospodine]

Gospodine, what would you say if you hadn't watch The Weigh of Chain? It is nothin more, but a Michael Moore style movie.

Funny how I've been arguing that theory regarding the break-up of Yugoslavia before anyone on this forum even mentioned that film.

Of course you're not receptive to the idea of the West being instrumental behind Yugoslavia's self-destruction because that would mean your nation's entire way of life, its very basis for existence and its socio-political outlook as well as relations with its neighbours would have to change astronomically.

Whereas most of the lazy, unmotivated, ignorant sheep-shaggers of the Balkans would rather sit their with thumbs up their asses and have convenient boogeymen to hurl your vitriol at.



I stand by what I said earlier. Yugoslavia was a fake state, built by militant communist partisans with the support of the allied countries in WWII as a buffer zone between the West and East, tens of thousands of dead dissidents, hundreds of thousands sent to prison camps like Goli Otok. UDBA, KOS.

Still light years ahead of anything the Eastern Bloc had to offer. And that again, is not subjective, it's fact.


Anyway, Yugoslavia was undone by the same forces that made it in the first place.

I'll agree with you.

It's the nature of Anglo-American Foreign Policy to make Frankenstein states which they have to eradicate once they escape the bounds of their master's loyalty.

Yugoslavia wasn't the first and it won't be the last.

[el22]

I think I copied the relevant part from your link:


1971:

Yugoslavia becomes a federation of republics and provinces. The federal government retains control only over common areas such as defence, foreign affairs, foreign trade and civil rights. [11]

1970s:

Unrest in the republics increases, particularly in Croatia where there are calls for independence. Tito intervenes by replacing the leadership in several regions and clamping down on dissidents. [11]

1980:

Tito's tight rein on Yugoslavia keeps ethnic tensions in check until his death in 1980. Without his pan-Slavic influence, ethnic and nationalist differences begin to flare. [1]

1980s:

At the time of Tito's death the country was already suffering high inflation and high foreign debt. In the 1980's the leadership, encouraged by US policy, tries to address this by moving towards a more Western "free" market. IMF loans are tied to conditions which further erode industry and the welfare state, increase foreign debt and lower standards of living. [12] [32]

The economic measures lead to thousands of strikes from 1987. The bureaucracy collapses, nationalist leaders rise to power in the republics and the republics start to work against each other. Ethnic divisions are thus greatly exacerbated. [13]

In a fragmenting Yugoslavia people groups fear being left with minority status in any succeeding state. "War in Bosnia and Croatia was not the inevitable product of centuries of ethnic hatreds. It was created from ambition, fear, and incompetence - local and international." [29]

1989:

With the end of the Cold War Germany looks to expand trade in Eastern Europe. Many suspect Germany would like to see Yugoslavia break up to aid this expansion. [32]

Milosevic abolishes Kosovo's autonomous status. He fires a hundred thousand ethnic Albanian workers and bans the use of their language in schools. Dozens more die protesting these proscriptions. [33]

By this time emigration of Albanians to Kosovo, which was encouraged by Tito, and a higher birthrate in Muslim families, has led to the population of Kosovo being 85% ethnic Albanian and 15% Roma and ethnic Serbs. [33]

I'm sorry, but you're just paranoiac. Even your source can't do more than blame USA for encouraging free market, and blame Germany for (would) liking (as may suspect) that yougoslavia breaks.
Yougoslavia lacked the internal cohesion, and sooner or later was destined to break.

[CrystalMaiden]

Bosniak nationality would still be suppressed, our Bosnian language which all Serbs and Croats would be called Srpsko-Hrvatski or some absurdity like that and the oil in Bosnia would be split "equally, for benefit of all Yugoslavs".

Good riddance if you ask me :thumb001:

[Minesweeper]

Who cares about Noel Malcolm? It was your own country who conducted the census.

If 1912 isn't enough for you, how about 1921?

According to the Yugoslavian census of 1921, Kosovo was 21% Orthodox, and 26% spoke a Slavic language. Yes, it was the Italians and Tito who stole Kosovo from you in the 1940s and 1950s! :rolleyes:

And how did that number dropped, peacefully or by violent means of Ottomans and their faithful Bashibozuks that we call Albanians today?

Tito didn't stole Kosovo, he played a role in it's further albanization and made possible what happened after, especially by 1974 constitution and by refusing to deport those Albanians who illegally settled in Kosovo during WW2.

[Gospodine]

Bosniak nationality would still be suppressed, our Bosnian language which all Serbs and Croats would be called Srpsko-Hrvatski or some absurdity like that and the oil in Bosnia would be split "equally, for benefit of all Yugoslavs".

And it only cost several hundred thousand lives and your economic bondage to the West for eternity.

If that's your idea of a success; I'd hate to see what you consider failure.

Posts like this really do make me think the people of the Balkans deserve their fate and laughing stock status for being so obliviously petty, begrudging and selfish.

[Minesweeper]

And it only cost several hundred thousand lives and your economic bondage to the West for eternity.

If that's your idea of a success; I'd hate to see what you consider failure.

Posts like this really do make me think the people of the Balkans deserve their fate and laughing stock status for being so obliviously petty, begrudging and selfish.

If we didn't deserve it, it wouldn't have happened. That's how I see it. ;)

[xajapa]

Yugoslavia was powerful and prosperous country when it was leaded by a croatian (Tito) who menaged very well all the nations to keep together as brothers, even albanians somehow started to be loyal, as soon as the serbs got in to the power they destroyed everything, thats obviously.
In my opinion, it would require a charismatic leader to hold the various groups within Yugoslavia together.

[Permafrost]

Don't really care, I'm just glad it's gone.

The man regarded as the Father of the Croatian nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Star%C4%8Devi%C4%87) by modern Croatians considered Slovenes as 'Alpine Croats'. So how could Slovenes be in a common union with such a nation?

Even if (God forbid) another Yugoslavia happens, I hope Slovenia won't be a part of it.

[Skerdilaid]

Try prior to WW2 (during which I might add the Albanian puppet state of Fascist Italy eliminated somewhere in the region of 200,000 to 400,000 Serbs from Kosovo).
Some reading for you:http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?56889-Kosovo-positive-or-negative&p=1054922&viewfull=1#post1054922


Utter bullshit and you know it. The only Slavs that left Kosova were the Montenegrins and Serb colonists that were settled in Albanian lands. The Yugo Government confiscated Albanian land in regions like Drenica, Llap that were 100% Albanian order to settle the colonists. I don't know which planet you live but in Balkans people don't take it lightly when you confiscate their land.

[Alenka]

Well, thank goodness for the U.S. then, because Albanians in Kosovo shouldn't be ruled by Yugoslavs.

A Yugoslavia that comprised of Bosnia+Croatia+Serbia+Montenegro wouldn't be a bad thing, but Kosovo+FYROM+Slovenia shouldn't be a part of it.
I think this should be for us to decide. It's not really any of your business.


They're distinctly different peoples.
So what? For example, North Germans and South Germans are also distinctly different. Also the North Italians and Sicilians. Also North Croatians and South Croatians.

Why do these people get to stick together despite being distinctively different? Because they identify together. And likewise, if Slovenes and Macedonians make a decision to identify together; then they can stick together just as well.

[Lucifer]

it'd break sooner or later with the same barbaric consequences.

[Mortimer]

the Country would be much richer then most of former yugoslav states are now and would be in EU already

[alfieb]

So what? For example, North Germans and South Germans are also distinctly different. Also the North Italians and Sicilians. Also North Croatians and South Croatians.
Sicilians and Northern Italians, absolutely. There's a lot of mutual contempt and disdain for one-another.

[Lemon Kush]

Sicilians and Northern Italians, absolutely. There's a lot of mutual contempt and disdain for one-another.

Because one is arab and the other isn't?

[alfieb]

Because one is arab and the other isn't?

I'm sorry, gypsy. What was that? Take the dick out of your mouth and try that again.

[Lucifer]

the Country would be much richer then most of former yugoslav states are now and would be in EU already

all the states were not equal during yugoslavia, when things are bad everyone wants yugoslavia back, but when it's good, the countries with higher living standart believe it's unfair that they have to pay for others, so this brotherhood and unity is just bs imo.

[Mortimer]

all the states were not equal during yugoslavia, when things are bad everyone wants yugoslavia back, but when it's good, the countries with higher living standart believe it's unfair that they have to pay for others, so this brotherhood and unity is just bs imo.

all states in USA are not equal either or all the states in italy etc. Not even in Germany. Bavaria is richer then North let alone East Germany. Yugoslavia was good

[alfieb]

all states in USA are not equal either or all the states in italy etc. Not even in Germany. Bavaria is richer then North let alone East Germany. Yugoslavia was good
:picard1:

You know nothing about the USA. All states are equal.

The principle behind a Yugoslavia - that Serbo-Croatian peoples could be united in one country where religion didn't dictate everything was a noble one, but including people who weren't Serbo-Croatian into that was a huge mistake.

[Mortimer]

:picard1:

You know nothing about the USA. All states are equal.

The principle behind a Yugoslavia - that Serbo-Croatian peoples could be united in one country where religion didn't dictate everything was a noble one, but including people who weren't Serbo-Croatian into that was a huge mistake.

not all states are equal some have higher unemployment or poverty then others. but i also referenced italy and Germany etc.
if the non-yugoslav People dont like it they can leave to their own Country. but they were equally accepted as yugoslavs. if you talk about albanians in yugoslavia you should not Forget that you have albanians in italy too and also Germans from which you stole south Tirol cowardly and you made them italians

[alfieb]

not all states are equal some have higher unemployment or poverty then others.
What does that have to do with anything? All states have a governor. All states have two senators. All states have congressmen and presidential electors based proportionately on their population, to ensure that they are treated equally and fairly.


if the non-yugoslav People dont like it they can leave to their own Country. but they were equally accepted as yugoslavs. if you talk about albanians in yugoslavia you should not Forget that you have albanians in italy too and also Germans from which you stole south Tirol cowardly and you made them italians
And Albanians do not make up the majority in any region of Italy. They are refugees who were allowed to create their own towns where their language and church would be protected. Albanians in Kosovo were already the majority when Yugoslavia was created. The region of Kosovo, therefore, should not have been part of Yugoslavia.

[Mortimer]

What does that have to do with anything? All states have a governor. All states have two senators. All states have congressmen and presidential electors based proportionately on their population, to ensure that they are treated equally and fairly.


And Albanians do not make up the majority in any region of Italy. They are refugees who were allowed to create their own towns where their language and church would be protected. Albanians in Kosovo were already the majority when Yugoslavia was created. The region of Kosovo, therefore, should not have been part of Yugoslavia.

they were not always majority look at old censuses.

A study in 1838 by an Austrian physician, dr. Joseph Müller found Metohija to be mostly Slavic (Serbian) in character.[47] Müller gives data for the three counties (Bezirke) of Prizren, Peć and Đakovica which roughly covered Metohija, the portion adjacent to Albania and most affected by Albanian settlers. Out of 195,000 inhabitants in this region, Müller found:
114,000 Muslims (58%): c. 38,000 are Serbs (19%)
c. 86,000 are Albanians (39%)

Christians: 73,572 Eastern Orthodox Serbs (38%)
5,120 Roman Catholic Albanians (3%)

2,308 other non-Muslims (Janjevci etc.)

Müller's observations on towns:
Peć: 11,050 Serbs, 500 Albanians
Prizren: 16,800 Serbs, 6150 Albanians
Đakovica: majority of Albanians, surrounding villages Serbian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#19th_century

[alfieb]

What does 1838 have to do with Yugoslavia? Kosovo was part of the Ottoman Empire at the time, and the modern FYROM capital of Skopje was then the capital of Kosovo, so Kosovo census included places that aren't in modern Kosovo, obviously.

When Yugoslavia came into existence, Kosovo was not a Slavic region. Period.

Slavomacedonians are not Serbo-Croatians. They speak Bulgarian. If Bulgaria was not part of Yugoslavia (and it wasn't, obviously), Slavomacedonia shouldn't have been, either.

[Mortimer]

What does 1838 have to do with Yugoslavia? Kosovo was part of the Ottoman Empire at the time, and the FYROM capital of Skopje was the capital of Kosovo.

When Yugoslavia came into existence, Kosovo was not a Slavic region. Period.

Slavomacedonians are not Serbo-Croatians. They speak Bulgarian. If Bulgaria was not part of Yugoslavia (and it wasn't, obviously), Slavomacedonia shouldn't have been, either.

it is like saying China town shouldnt be part of USA. Kosovo was always part of serbia from terretory and albanians outnumbered the serbs only over centuries not always.

[alfieb]

it is like saying China town shouldnt be part of USA. Kosovo was always part of serbia from terretory and albanians outnumbered the serbs only over centuries not always.
I still don't see your point.

At one point, there were more Hungarians in Transylvania than Romanians. At one point, there were more Greeks in Istanbul than Turks. At one point, there were more Germans in Gdansk than Poles.

Gdansk is Poland, Transylvania is Romania, and Istanbul is Turkey. Kosovo is not Serbia, and it shouldn't have been Yugoslavia.

[Mortimer]

I still don't see your point.

At one point, there were more Hungarians in Transylvania than Romanians. At one point, there were more Greeks in Istanbul than Turks. At one point, there were more Germans in Gdansk than Poles.

Gdansk is Poland, Transylvania is Romania, and Istanbul is Turkey. Kosovo is not Serbia, and it shouldn't have been Yugoslavia.

ok but at the Point yugoslavia was created, Kosovo was part of serbia (terretorial) like China town or Harlem is part of USA with a majority albanian Population though

[alfieb]

And when the Soviet Union was being created, one of the first things they did was allow Finland to go free, which had been part of Russia for over 100 years.

Serbia conquered Kosovo from the Ottomans in 1912. Under the Ottomans, it was never considered part of Serbia. The annexation of Kosovo to Serbia a century ago didn't mean that when Yugoslavia was created to be a country for South Slavs, that a region that was less than 1/4 South Slavic should become part of that country.

[Mortimer]

And when the Soviet Union was being created, one of the first things they did was allow Finland to go free, which had been part of Russia for over 100 years.

Serbia conquered Kosovo from the Ottomans in 1912. Under the Ottomans, it was never considered part of Serbia. The annexation of Kosovo to Serbia a century ago didn't mean that when Yugoslavia was created to be a country for South Slavs, that a region that was less than 1/4 South Slavic should become part of that country.

the Ottomans conquered Kosovo from serbia. and italian fascists conquered Kosovo from serbia and created creater albania. it is not really easy to judge what belongs to whom. there were still many serbs in Kosovo in the 20th century.

Most of the territory of today's province was occupied by Italian-controlled Greater Albania, massacres of some 10,000[56][57] Serbs, ethnic cleansing of about 100[56] to 250,000[56][58] or more[57][unreliable source?] occurred.

Nazi Germany estimated that from November 1943 to February 1944, 40 000 Serbs fled Italian-occupied Kosovo for Montenegro and Serbia.

[Mortimer]

census comparison Shows albanians overtake of Kosovo within a few decades

1953 census[edit]

808,141 total inhabitants
524,559 Albanians (64.91%)

1961 census[edit]

963,959 total inhabitants
646,604 Albanians (67.08%)

1971 census[edit]

1,243,693 total inhabitants[citation needed]
916,168 Albanians or 73.7%[58]

1981 census[edit]

1,584,558 total inhabitants
1,226,736 Albanians (77.42%)


1995 estimate[edit]

Albanians - around 1,360,000 (89.9%);
not a injustice?

[alfieb]

Go back a few pages in this thread and you'll see that in the Yugoslavian census of 1921, only 21% of the people in Kosovo were Serbs.

If there were more Serbs in 1953, then obviously they settled there during Yugoslavia and weren't from there.

[Mortimer]

Go back a few pages in this thread and you'll see that in the Yugoslavian census of 1921, only 21% of the people in Kosovo were Serbs.

If there were more Serbs in 1953, then obviously they settled there during Yugoslavia and weren't from there.

The 1921 Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes population census for the territories comprising modern day Kosovo listed 439,010 inhabitants:

Serbian or Croatian: 114,095 (26.0%)

1948 census[edit]
171,911 Serbs (23.62%)

actually it is less serbs but more albanians, because italians made albanians kill serbs during WW2.
it is not serbs who settled there or overtook but albanians. the albanians overtook Kosovo. during yugoslavia albanians came from albania and also they had many children + they would Harass serbs in their neighbourhoods and then ask to buy their house and serbs move out of Kosovo.

[alfieb]

1921 - Serbian or Croatian: 114,095 (26.0%)
Orthodox Christians were 21%. People who spoke a Slavic language were 26%.


1948 - 171,911 Serbs (23.62%)
If there were 21% Serbs in 1921, and 23% Serbs in 1948, then the claims of genocide by Italians are widely exaggerated. Either way, the constant in all of this is an overwhelming Albanian majority.

[Mortimer]

Orthodox Christians were 21%. People who spoke a Slavic language were 26%.


If there were 21% Serbs in 1921, and 23% Serbs in 1948, then the claims of genocide by Italians are widely exaggerated.

not all orthodox christians are serbs, but not all serbian or croatian Speakers are serbs either. true. so we cant know it for sure. however after a few decades there should be a Population growth because back then People had many children and not a Population reduce. the italians commited attrocities against serbs and supported greater albanian that is documented.

[alfieb]

Of course Italians wanted more Albanians in Kosovo.

And Slavs wanted less Albanians.

But what the Italians/Albanians did in the 1940s is no less justified than what the Slavs did throughout the 20th century, if any of it was justified at all.

Kosovo is now, and was then, by far, a majority-Albanian region. That's all that matters. Anyone who believes in self-determination and the right of peoples to make their own decisions should respect that, and as such Kosovo should never have been forced into Yugoslavia.

[Mortimer]

Of course Italians wanted more Albanians in Kosovo.

And Slavs wanted less Albanians.

of course, and you being in the Tradition of Mussolini makes you a enemy of the serb people

[Mortimer]

But what the Italians/Albanians did in the 1940s is no less justified than what the Slavs did throughout the 20th century, if any of it was justified at all.

Kosovo is now, and was then, by far, a majority-Albanian region. That's all that matters. Anyone who believes in self-determination and the right of peoples to make their own decisions should respect that, and as such Kosovo should never have been forced into Yugoslavia.

nothing of that is justified, but making the serbs the only bad guys is wrong. Kosovo was by the creation of yugoslavia serbian terretory. and albanians were only around half of the Population they became 90% in 1995 by silent conquest. and there many states with ethnic minorities, should all be dismantled? why are albanians a Special case?

[wvwvw]

And when the Soviet Union was being created, one of the first things they did was allow Finland to go free, which had been part of Russia for over 100 years.

Serbia conquered Kosovo from the Ottomans in 1912. Under the Ottomans, it was never considered part of Serbia. The annexation of Kosovo to Serbia a century ago didn't mean that when Yugoslavia was created to be a country for South Slavs, that a region that was less than 1/4 South Slavic should become part of that country.

It was Serbs who fought and died to free it from Ottoman rule though.


Two sc. „great migrations“ of Orthodox Serbs from Kosovo and Metohia, both leaded by Serbian Patriarchs, took place in 17th and 18th century, affecting about 200.000 people. Serbs joined a common European struggle against the Turks, but after defeat of Austria by Turks they suffered a severe retaliation by the Turks, so that a lot of them had to move from their homeland. Migrations of Serbs from Kosovo and Metohia area weakened the Serbian ethnic element, and it became afterwards more or less a constant tendency. In the same time at the beginning of the 18th century Albanians started penetrating into lands of the South Slavs. During the 19th century for the first time we meet the notion of „Greater Albania“. Owing to long-lasting Turkish occupation of almost five centuries, Albanians who converted into Muslims were favored and succeeded to take over a great part of Serbian historical territories, while Serbs were expatriated gradually through the many years of terror under the Turkish yoke.

Particularly by the end of 19th century, after the Congress of Berlin of 1878 to 1912, from the territory of sc. „Old Serbia“ (the historical name for the region of Kosovo, Metohia and some neighboring areas) Serbs were physically exterminated by Turks, who drove them mainly to the new created independent Serbian state. In those thirty years about 400.000 Serbian people left this region.

After the World War I, the first Yugoslav state was created in 1918, as a successor of the Serbian state, and it encompassed Kosovo and Metohia. In that time Albanian population amounted about 180.000. After the World War II in 1945 the number of Albanians increased, as some of them were moved from Albania in fertile Kosovo and Metohia valleys inhabited by Serbs, with the help of Italian fascistic occupation regime and the Axis powers during the War.

[Trun]

Serbia conquered Kosovo from the Ottomans in 1912. Under the Ottomans, it was never considered part of Serbia. The annexation of Kosovo to Serbia a century ago didn't mean that when Yugoslavia was created to be a country for Southwest Slavs, that a region that was less than 1/4 South Slavic should become part of that country.

Yugoslavia was successor of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Southeast Slavs (Macedonian Bulgarians) were included because they were a subject of Serbization. Later, Serbs realized it is impossible, thus creating the state of FYROM.

[Skerdilaid]

nothing of that is justified, but making the serbs the only bad guys is wrong. Kosovo was by the creation of yugoslavia serbian terretory. and albanians were only around half of the Population they became 90% in 1995 by silent conquest. and there many states with ethnic minorities, should all be dismantled? why are albanians a Special case?

Over 200.000 Albanians were killed during the Serbian conquest to occupy Albanian lands. Albanians made the absolute majority all the way up to Nish. Kosova was never part of Serbia, Ottomans occupied the land from local rulers(Serbs and Albanians). Serbia was only created in 19 hundreds, so throwing terms like Kosova was Serbia before Ottomans is outlandish.

[Skerdilaid]

It was Serbs who fought and died to free it from Ottoman rule though.

You need to go back to elementary school.

[Gospodine]

Southeast Slavs (Macedonian Bulgarians) were included because they were a subject of Serbization

You would have been included too; but alas it was impossible to separate Bulgaria from the Soviet sphere of influence so Tito decided against it.

See here:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?70404-Why-do-Serbians-hate-Bulgarians-and-vice-versa&p=1363481&viewfull=1#post1363481

[Gospodine]

A Yugoslavia that comprised of Bosnia+Croatia+Serbia+Montenegro wouldn't be a bad thing, but Kosovo+FYROM+Slovenia shouldn't be a part of it. They're distinctly different peoples.

That's a moot point.

The linguistic and cultural distance between Slovenians/Macedonians and the other Former Yugoslav states are no greater than any other modern European nation with strong regional identities that have from time to time voiced separatist ambitions such as Spain, Italy, Switzerland or even the British Isles.

Your own backyard (Sicily) is basically another country economically, politically and culturally from most of the boot; but alas it's still a part of it. Advocating a union of South Slavs is an infinitely more plausible proposition from an ethnological/anthropological point of view.

Plenty of European countries united and federated into single states from the 16th to 20th centuries where previously they had been bitter enemies for centuries and overcame much greater socio-political hurdles to achieve that, not limited to mere religious and linguistic ones.

Today we have a situation where most of Western Europe is perfectly content with the idea of pooling their economic plight together, applying sweeping legislation across dozens of different countries with differing legal systems and having borderless travel between states and even talk of a unified military; this is a far greater challenge and a far more perilous exercise than the idea of South Slavs uniting, which is a natural, logical move for self-sufficiency, regional sovereignty and repelling destructive foreign influence; which for centuries has crippled the Balkans and South Slavs respectively.

As for Kosovo; in its present state it shouldn't be a part of any other country as it'll only drag somebody else down with its laundry list of 3rd-world problems. And that's not likely to change for a long time so nobody should concern themselves with Kosovo's sovereignty save for Albanians I guess (and even then I think they'd soon realise they made a mistake if they ever annex that worthless patch of dirt).

[Duke]

what if, what if

[Nurr]

Yugoslavia, a country of 22 million people and huge mineral resources being annoying depraved Eu community-and that was the main reason for its destruction

[RandoBloom]

Yugoslavia, a country of 22 million people and huge mineral resources being annoying depraved Eu community-and that was the main reason for its destruction

You mean mineral wealth of Bosnia that you stole since 1918?

[Skerdilaid]

If it still existed, I would literally piss on it:)

[Ülev]

od vardara pa do triglava, plesala je raja titova, hej
od đerdapa pa do jadrana, žurala je moja generacija.
ljubljana, zagreb, beograd, sarajevo, skopje, titograd.
ljubljana, zagreb, beograd, priština, split in novi sad.



https://youtu.be/WQzqV-6-4do

[Mopi Licinius Crassus]

you'd have probs won a WC by now, if yugoslavia woulda stayed united

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

you'd have probs won a WC by now, if yugoslavia woulda stayed united

Why didn't it win it in almost 50 years of it's existence ? :rolleyes: Croatia alone is much more sucessful than rest of Yugoslavia put togheder.

[Moje ime]

There wouldn't be immigrants in Europe.

[MiloshN]

thanks god, not exist still

[Ülev]

I am the only Yugophile here? no Mikula too I suppose

[MiloshN]

I am the only Yugophile here? no Mikula too

yaaaa

[RenaRyuguu]

Now I will explain to all brainwashed people what this fake country was before vlach gypsy Christian wars. Macedonia was Scottish Anglo and had boarding schools. Bosnia and Bosnia & Herzegovina were also Anglo and had castles and restaurants. Serbia was Irish but not Belgrade only Zrenjanin and Arandjelovac. Vojvodina was Anglo. and that's it. During Communism my mom told me in Republika Srpska that someone brainwashed the population to be obedient which was a mistake. All of Republika Srpska is human Anglo. The rest of Serbia is human Anglo & Kosovo. Belgrade is you know what it is we have taken care of that via reporting to the local police.

[RenaRyuguu]

now that I have analyzed all summer what this potentially could have been it is indeed interesting and it will be that.

[RenaRyuguu]

No more war yay!