African admixture in Southern Europeans

[Charlie Bass]

Europeans are mainly the descendants of Neolithic farmers from the Near East and native European Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, with the Mesolithic component peaking in Northeastern Europe. Moreover, all Europeans have prehistoric East Asian admixture, but Northern Europeans have more of it than Southern Europeans. However, Southern Europeans have recent Sub-Saharan African ancestry that Northern Europeans lack.


Source (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/08/genetic-origins-and-structure-of.html)


Inference of human demographic parameters using haplotype patterns from genome-wide SNP data. K. E. Lohmueller1,2, A. Auton2, C. D. Bustamante2, A. G. Clark1 1) Dept Mol Biol and Genetics, Cornell Univ, Ithaca, NY; 2) Dept Biol Stats and Comp Biol, Cornell Univ, Ithaca, NY.

Accurate inference of human demographic history from genetic data is essential for identification of single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) association with disease and for inference of natural selection. Haplotype diversity and haplotype sharing carry additional demographic information to that obtainable from SNP frequency spectra, and so we propose a novel method using haplotype summary statistics to fit demographic models to genome-wide SNP data. We divide the genome into 0.25 cM windows and for each we tabulate the number of distinct haplotypes and the frequency of the most common haplotype. We summarize the data by the genome-wide joint distribution of these two statistics. Coalescent simulations are then used to evaluate whether different demographic models are compatible with the observed data. Application of our method to simulated data shows that our method can reliably infer parameters from complex demographic models (such as bottlenecks) and is relatively robust to the levels of SNP ascertainment bias found in many genome-wide datasets. We have applied our method to data collected by the International HapMap Consortium and find that a bottleneck model best fits the CEU population. We have also analyzed a large dataset consisting of Affymetrix 500k data from ~2,900 individuals with ancestry from Taiwan, Japan, India, Mexico and many European countries. Since this dataset includes ~2,300 European individuals, we are able to study haplotype patterns at a fine scale within Europe. Interestingly, we find that within Europe there is a south-to-north gradient with decreasing levels of haplotype diversity moving north, consistent with south to north migrations. We also find that the southwestern European sample has higher haplotype diversity than the southeastern European sample. Additionally, a higher proportion of haplotypes are shared between the southwestern European sample and the Yoruba sample than between southeastern European sample and the Yoruba sample. These two patterns are consistent with recent admixture across the Mediterranean from Northern Africa.

Pure Southern Europeans=RIP

[Charlie Bass]

Mr.Bass has noticed that exotic Southern Europeans tend to lean toward North Africa not Middle East.Mr.Bass's observation fits the genetic studies.

[Libertas]

It may or may not be true but we still don't need hordes of West African hawkers infesting the streets of Southern Europe.

[SilverKnight]

This doesn't necessarily mean that Southern, or Northern Europeans aren't 'pure'
It's just basically ancient genes reflected, not recent. There are also Europeans who have have ancient West and south west Asian ancestry. For instance my African, Native is recent, but then my South west Asian might not be that recent.

[Gaijin]

Mr.Bass has noticed that exotic Southern Europeans tend to lean toward North Africa not Middle East.Mr.Bass's observation fits the genetic studies.

Southern Europeans tend to lean to North Africa or Middle East you say?http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7231/6922380462_36a2e466da_b.jpg

Surprisingly, Southern European never cluster with the North Africans, but with their counterpart Europids.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7115/7615638790_a62b8a7b3b_b.jpg

[Lábaru]

We are all mixed with Asian and African DNA but a 1-2% not is a nightmare, is acceptable.

[SilverKnight]

Your thesis is based on a merely blog...
Oh look, a jigaboo trying to the pierce Southern Europeans.

Somebody ban this negro, already.

People can't just be banned for posting something you don't agree with, unless he/she has offended a member or staff.

[SilverKnight]

Since when are non-Europeans allowed in Apricity?

Charlie Bass is not your typical user.
He's a Negoid, trolling around with a sense of sarcasm.

Just browse his posts.


How about we give him a chance and see how he behaves forward like a troll or not ? His reputation is horrid as I see. But is up to the staff/admins to delegate and decide what do do with him.

[SilverKnight]

Doesn't seem legit, Iceland, Estonia ? wtf xD

[Dacul]

Romanians do not have any african admixture.
Some romanians have some south indian admixture,but under 10%.
South indian does not mean gypsies,gypsies are a group of people of mostly south India genetics who are most of them uneducated,but they can not compare to south indians.Romanians have south indian admixture brought from very likely dacians or other european population, from more than 2k years ago, not from mixing with gypsies.
So some romanians have south indian admixture from some old european population that a mixed a little with south indians,meh.
I saw excellent programmers or science men from romanian gypsies which were educated.
And no offense but romanian gypsies are much more less violent than average nigger from US and much more smart.
When the ancestors of gypsies from Romania were living in houses and practicing agriculture in South India africans were living as savages,so there is no really term of comparasion between these 2 races of humans.

[Insuperable]

My mistake. Diagonal lines mean that there is no data from these countries.

[ThatGirl]

It is always blacks at this Spanish etc people are not white because they are part Africa.A while back this black guy on youtube even started these videos stating that South European are non white and that they were black.:bored:
So what if some have minimal African dna does this mean that they should love blacks and call them "brotha" or something.What is the whole point of this post?Majority of people already know this but the only ones who seem to give a damn about this minimal African admixture are blacks.

Southern Europeans have inherited 1%–3% African ancestry with an average mixture date of around 55 generations ago, consistent with North African gene flow at the end of the Roman Empire and subsequent Arab migrations.

Who gives a shit 1-3% is basically nothing.

[Charlie Bass]

We are all mixed with Asian and African DNA but a 1-2% not is a nightmare, is acceptable.

It's not just that.It is showed only 1-2% because we don't have tools to measure deep ancestry admixture.When we will have.African will be even greater in Southern Europeans.


When someone writes something like this:

It gives a slight hint, that someone wants to provoke.


The Bass is not a provocateur.If EastAfricans are admixed and all the time Euros point about that then why Southern Europeans are so touchy about their admixture?

[StonyArabia]

Southern Europeans, do have some SSA influence, they also have higher affinity to North Africa and SSA Africa, which reflects ancient and recent admixture. Denying this is foolish.

[The Alchemist]

This is a real tragedy.

[Sunphq]

It's not just that.It is showed only 1-2% because we don't have tools to measure deep ancestry admixture.When we will have.African will be even greater in Southern Europeans.

As recent and substantial as your European ancestry Bass?

How European are you on 23andme?


Mr.Bass has noticed that exotic Southern Europeans tend to lean toward North Africa not Middle East.Mr.Bass's observation fits the genetic studies.

Nope, I gravitate towards Near Easterners. As confirmed by Mr McDonald.

Wog Pride :icon_cool:

[finþaų]

South Europeans tend more to Africa than do North Europeans, and North Europeans tend more to East Asia than do South Europeans.

Is this news?

[Demhat]

This doesn't necessarily mean that Southern, or Northern Europeans aren't 'pure'
It's just basically ancient genes reflected, not recent. There are also Europeans who have have ancient West and south west Asian ancestry. For instance my African, Native is recent, but then my South west Asian might not be that recent.

Most Europeans are the result of Neolthic/Indo-European farmers and pastoralists.

Many people make the mistake that they connect the Neolthic farmers with the West Asian components, yet they fail to see that most Neolthic samples in Europe are mostly (Eastern) Mediterranean, like Ötzi. The Mediterranean component originated most probably in the Mesopotamian-Levant area and spread into Europe. The West Asian component for most is more "recent" (probably Bronze age immigrants) Most of it could have come with Indo-Europeans and or isolated Groups like (Etruscans, Minoans etc. ).

[Dacul]

HG E-V13 is not of African origin is of european origin and was taken from Europe to Africa and not reverse.
You do not know there are some african populations with very high percentage of R1B?
Does that means R1B came from Africa to Europe,or that is was brought from Europe to Africa?
I think it means it was brought from Europe to Africa.

[Demhat]

Southern Europeans tend to lean to North Africa or Middle East you say?http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7231/6922380462_36a2e466da_b.jpg

Whoever made this map has not much of an idea of Western Asia. This map is as simplistic as it could be. Western Iran has much more of R1a1a* R1b and G as it has any J1. Yet no sign of it.

Northern Iraq has at maximum some 10-12% J1 vs 15-20% R1b*, 10-15% R1a1a*. yet no sign of it.

Ridiculous map.

[Insuperable]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Y_Haplogroup_E.PNG

The map is not entirely correct. Croatia and Poland have less or the same amounts of E when compared to Spain and France
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Stefan]

To be honest, I think much of this African are possibly remnants of the Mesolithic Europeans, who score about 90% Atlantic-Baltic and 10% East-African. Why it is not found in Northern Europeans might have to do with different refugee populations migrating North, and the founding effect, furthermore, the Northern Europeans have different influences from West Asia and Siberia which may further distance them from Africa in affinity tests.

I'm not sure how much of it is recent. Overall, it should not have much of a phenotypical influence. This is less admixture than an average European has of Neanderthals, and we don't see them walking around.

[Insuperable]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Y_Haplogroup_E.PNG


As you can see the grey data indicated "no data". It means that there was research only for "green" colored countries.
And because of that your post has no point.

[The Exiled King]

That map of Haplogroup E is completely outdated and/or with very little information. There is a lot more of it in Southern Europe.

This map is much better:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

This is for E1b only though.

[Stefan]

^ On these haplogroup maps, do the circles represent founding populations from which the rest of the population with the haplogroup has spread? It would be interesting if we could connect such regions with historical knowledge of population movement, and to target the source of such haplogroups. For example, the circles in Northern France/Belgium, Galicia, and the Balkans definitely seem like some founding population effect, for which the rest of the frequencies originated in the peripheries of those regions.

[The Exiled King]

^ On these haplogroup maps, do the circles represent founding populations from which the rest of the population with the haplogroup has spread? It would be interesting if we could connect such regions with historical knowledge of population movement, and to target the source of such haplogroups. For example, the circles in Northern France/Belgium, Galicia, and the Balkans definitely seem like some founding population effect, for which the rest of the frequencies originated in the peripheries of those regions.

It has something to do with that and the peak concentration of it in that area what you are referring to as the "circles". It dissipates as it gets further away from the highest concentrated areas of that haplogroup of course.

[Sikeliot]

That map of Haplogroup E is completely outdated and/or with very little information. There is a lot more of it in Southern Europe.

This map is much better:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

This is for E1b only though.

You can see trends that make sense historically and autosomally.. Galicia has one of the highest rates of North African genetic influence in Spain, and has the higher frequency of E1b there. E1b is common in Cyprus but not the Levant, which shows the Greek influence, and is most present in Italy along Calabria and the eastern Sicilian coast, which means it came from Greece.

[The Exiled King]

You can see trends that make sense historically and autosomally.. Galicia has one of the highest rates of North African genetic influence in Spain, and has the higher frequency of E1b there. E1b is common in Cyprus but not the Levant, which shows the Greek influence, and is most present in Italy along Calabria and the eastern Sicilian coast, which means it came from Greece.

E1b doesn't necessarily contribute to North African genetic influence but mainly Mediterranean from the Mediterranean component in Dodecad.

[Charlie Bass]

E1b doesn't necessarily contribute to North African genetic influence but mainly Mediterranean from the Mediterranean component in Dodecad.

E1b1b=SouthWestAsian/Red Sea and EastAfrican(SSA) admixture.

Mediterranean=G2a.

[Demhat]

Mediterranean=G2a.

Exactly! As I said the (East) Med component was most probably brought in by Neolthic farmers. All researches show that.

[Loki]

Since when are non-Europeans allowed in Apricity?


Who are you, by the way? Apricity is not a racist forum, sorry to disappoint you.

[Loki]

You are either trying to pressure me to post some more pictures of the Semitic Poles, in order for me to get banned,

You can do that's it's not a bannable offence.

[Mordid]

Poles and Jews, brothers forever.
Same people, same treatment.:eek:

Having a nightmare inferior buddy?
Southern European populations show the greatest proximity to Jews, therefore Jews and Southern Europeans are the same people. The difference between them is their meta ethnicity and of course, religious. Geneticists have proven it that Southern Europeans are closer to Jews than to Poles.

Czech it out, Southern Europeans with non European admixtures in comparison to Poles who are almost pure European:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg607/scaled.php?server=607&filename=euroadmix.png&res=medium

^Keep your nightmare alive, instead of posting a lame fail comments here.

[Übermensch]

I wonder if it's possible to elimnate this small admixture with eugenethics....

[Stefan]

Southern European populations show the greatest proximity to Jews, therefore Jews and Southern Europeans are the same people. The difference between them is their meta ethnicity and of course, religious. Geneticists have proven it that Southern Europeans are closer to Jews than to Poles.

Czech it out, Southern Europeans with non European admixtures in comparison to Poles who are almost pure European:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg607/scaled.php?server=607&filename=euroadmix.png&res=medium

^Keep your nightmare alive, instead of posting a lame fail comments here.

I think you're generalizing Southern Europeans a bit much here. Southern Europeans are a bit more diverse than Northern Europeans, from what I've seen.

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/wp-content/blogs.dir/474/files/2012/04/i-bb3ac5b801b60400bded2397116d34e7-Europegenetics.jpg

It's probably more accurate to say "Jews show the greatest affinity to Southern Europeans" as they are a subset mixed population with Southern Italian, Near Eastern, and Central European ancestry.

[Loki]

I wonder if it's possible to elimnate this small admixture with eugenethics....

lol

[Übermensch]

lol

Anyway non Euro (Like Circassian Wine) find this more accetable (being mixed and non-white) while i have to admit that i can't accept it at all.
Anyway i have a question for Charlie Bass, why southern europeans are so backward then Northen ones? Do you think the african admixture made us more intelligent? I don't think so, african admixture made southern europeans more stupid,ugly and lazy than they were in the past (just think to Ancient Rome were negroes were actually SLAVES).
Negro blood makes civilizations death even if the percentage is very small, WASPS were right to apply the one drope rule...

[Loki]

Anyway non Euro (Like Circassian Wine) find this more accetable (being mixed and non-white) while i have to admit that i can't accept it at all.

You don't have to 'accept' other people if you don't want to. Perhaps they don't even care about your acceptance at all?

[AR89]

Anyway non Euro (Like Circassian Wine) find this more accetable (being mixed and non-white) while i have to admit that i can't accept it at all.
Anyway i have a question for Charlie Bass, why southern europeans are so backward then Northen ones? Do you think the african admixture made us more intelligent? I don't think so, african admixture made southern europeans more stupid,ugly and lazy than they were in the past (just think to Ancient Rome were negroes were actually SLAVES).
Negro blood makes civilizations death.

You are making a poor show, Southern Euro are not less intelligent or lazy than other Europeans (especially the first).

Even if it was true, it would still to be proven that there is a correspondence between admixture and intelligence.

[Pallantides]

South Europeans tend more to Africa than do North Europeans, and North Europeans tend more to East Asia than do South Europeans.

Is this news?

It's not towards East Asia per se I believe, the shift is stronger towards Northeast Asians and Amerindians than to East Asian.

[Übermensch]

You are making a poor show, Southern Euro are not less intelligent or lazy than other Europeans (especially the first).

Even if it was true, it would still to be proven that there is a correspondence between admixture and intelligence.

Negroids are much less intelligent then Caucasoids and East Asians (averege IQ in Africa is around 65), southern europeans (except Italians) have much lower IQ than Northens, read Richard Lynn, Germans and Dutch have 108 while Greeks only 92...
Northen Europeans are more hard-working people have a more civilzed beahviour etc...
Why do you think it happen so? negroids are the most uncivilized,stupid and lazy people in the world, so according to logic southern europeans are so backwards also because of this slight SSA admixture...

[Stefan]

Negroids are much less intelligent then Caucasoids and East Asians (averege IQ in Africa is around 65), southern europeans (except Italians) have much lower IQ than Northens, read Richard Lynn, Germans and Dutch have 108 while Greeks only 92...
Northen Europeans are more hard-working people have a more civilzed beahviour etc...

IQ is only about 70% genetic. I doubt 1-2% African ancestry will affect the allelic frequencies of IQ determining genes at significant numbers. Chances are that IQ in these Southern European countries are lower because of socioeconomic status. Pre-natal and child development vastly affect IQ.

[Sikeliot]

Sub-Saharan African ancestry in Southern Europe is likely so ancient and in such small amount that it has virtually NO effect on anyone's self-identification, lives, etc. so why even mention it really?

[AR89]

Negroids are much less intelligent then Caucasoids and East Asians (averege IQ in Africa is around 65), southern europeans (except Italians) have much lower IQ than Northens, read Richard Lynn, Germans and Dutch have 108 while Greeks only 92...
Northen Europeans are more hard-working people have a more civilzed beahviour etc...
Why do you think it happen so? negroids are the most uncivilized,stupid and lazy people in the world, so according to logic southern europeans are so backwards also because of this slight SSA admixture...

Do not put logic, Rychard Lynn and your fantasy theories in the same post.

Richard Lynn is a fine clown, the science community regards is studies as pure bullshits.

The "fact" that SE has less IQ than NE doesn't mean that it's because of their admixture, it has to be proven, you're only supposing.
You even contradict yourself, Spanish people have less admixture than Italians and yet we have an higher IQ (according to that bullshits studies of Lynn).

The only thing that count is science, and here there are only nordicist theories and hypothesis, we are very far from the truth.

[Übermensch]

Do not put logic, Rychard Lynn and your fantasy theories in the same post.

Richard Lynn is a fine clown, the science community regards is studies as pure bullshits.




You have to consider Northen and Central Italians that lacks completely of any african admixture, in fact higher IQ in Italy is found in Friuli and Veneto and lower in Sicily (86)

[Stefan]

You have to consider Northen and Central Italians that lacks completely of any african admixture, in fact higher IQ in Italy is found in Friuli and Veneto and lower in Sicily (86)

Again, isn't there a socioeconomic divide between Northern and Southern Italy?

[AR89]

You have to consider Northen and Central Italians that lacks completely of any african admixture, in fact higher IQ in Italy is found in Friuli and Veneto and lower in Sicily (86)
Your first sentence is false, they have admixture, and even more than spaniards.


Again, isn't there a socioeconomic divide between Northern and Southern Italy?

Of course there is.

[Charlie Bass]

what are you talking about? of course we have the tools, are you relying on the imagination to say that crap?

Autosomal admix results that Dodecad presents tells only very recent admixture not ancient ones.Even Finns have a linkage toward Red Sea do not mention the Iberians who will shift both toward North Africa and WestAfrica at lesser extent.



Obviously you are an American, probably mixed with a lot of bloods and you are projecting your personal insecurity in us. :picard1::picard1::picard1: Typical behavior of mestizos.

The Bass is not mestizo and he didn't made those tags.Let the admins check who made them.

[Lithium]

I don't know if Bulgaria is included in that, since we are a South-Eastern country, but here we didn't have any contacts with Africans in the past, so such admixture is most likely non-existant.

[Charlie Bass]

I don't know if Bulgaria is included in that, since we are a South-Eastern country, but here we didn't have any contacts with Africans in the past, so such admixture is most likely non-existant.

Here you got your connection.

http://wanclik.free.fr/eupedia_fichiers/image012.gif

[Charlie Bass]

Should I feel bad now? There is no such thing in my country :D

Bulgaria=30% E1b1b1a2.

[1810-2010]

That's funny you say that because Southern Europe have higher percent of Semitic/J Haplogroup than Poland:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Haplogroup_J_%28Y-DNA%29.svg

J haplogroup spread out from Levant/Mesopotamia long before the semitic peoples aroused out from somewhere in the arabian peninsula. Moreover J and other near-eastern haplogroups has not remained unchanged and have geographically derivated into local sub-haplogroups which enable to know which haplos come with Neolithic farmers and which ones come in i.e. Southern Spain with moors.

J haplogroups in South Europe and elsewhere in Europe has nothing to do with semitics.

[1810-2010]

Here you got your connection.

http://wanclik.free.fr/eupedia_fichiers/image012.gif

This Map departs from North Africa, No SSA Africa area shown. And for cause; E1b1 sub-haplo begin spliting into E1b1a and E1b1b branches by 45-40 kya ago; long time before human populations begun differenciating into modern physical types from the generalized Homo Sapiens (which metrically gathered morphological traits of all the living human types of today).
Hg E1b1b is not considered as an indicator of Africana dmixture; If you have a careful red to papers dealing with male Sub-Saharian admixture, the Hg from the E1b1b family are never taken as indicators of Black African admixture.
Not to tell that since at least 3 years ago most eminent genetitians like Cavalli-Sforza are working the hypothesis that haplogroup E migrated back from West-Eurasia to Africa:

It is also interesting to
sum the distributions of different haplogroups descending from the
same mutation, as for example D and E, which both descend from
DE-YAP, the first mutation that split into the E branch that
perhaps returned to Africa (or arose there), whereas the other
branch, D, is found today mainly in the Himalayas and Japan.

(from: Y chromosome diversity, human expansion, drift,
and cultural evolution; Jacques Chiaronia, Peter A. Underhillb, and Luca L. Cavalli-Sforzac, September 26, 2009.)

[Libertas]

Your first sentence is false, they have admixture, and even more than spaniards.


Moorjani's study is clear.
North Italians have less SS African mixture than Iberians or Southern Italians though they do have some.

[safinator]

Bulgaria=30% E1b1b1a2.
European clade.
Split 16.000 years ago.

[AR89]

Moorjani's study is clear.
North Italians have less SS African mixture than Iberians or Southern Italians though they do have some.

Now someone should prove the correlation between admixture and lower IQ (pure idiocy).

[Übermensch]

If this is true... Then why are Southern Europeans superior to Slavs (who are supposed to be über pure) in any possible way?

i exagerated a bit but i actually was trolling Bass (so don't take my words seriously)...
I don't know what's he is trying to proof anyway, if he thinks that glory of ancient Greece and Rome, the reinaissance ecc belongs to SSA then he is very wrong.
Anyway even Slavs aren't an homogeneus group, and maybe some slavs groups are less advanced than some southern euro groups (you can't compare Tuscanians and Lombards with Bulgarians and Macedonians for example but either you can't compare Czech and Campanians...)

[Virtuous]

Mordid is part black, :eek:

My blackk brothaaaa welcome home nigga :cool::thumbs up

Yeaaaaa Mordid my homie, we're more brothers than we think dawg, come hug me bro!

[~Nik~]

Negro blood makes civilizations death even if the percentage is very small, WASPS were right to apply the one drope rule...

I think that they cannot unfortunately understand the foundation of the Western civilisation and culture, for example there is no way that they can understand properly or accept on the whole what have said European philosophers as Nietzsche (;)), that's simply genetic. And for the half-breeds, they have not so many choices it seems, or they blend into the ignorant and idealistic mass of the World, or they isolate themselves from everything and end up dying in dementia.

[Il Principe]

It's impossible to judge whether "Slavs" or "Mediterraneans" are objectively superior, because both of those groups are so racially heterogeneous (and culturally even more so) that they cannot be counted as single units.

That being said, I mostly concur with the poster who said that the Lombards and Tuscans are clearly superior to Bulgarians and Ukrainians, whereas the Czechs are superior to Southern Italy's racial dregs. It is too complex to be an "either or" issue.

[The Lawspeaker]

The first one that attempts to derail this thread again will see a very ugly side of me. That's not a threat but a promise.

Carry on, gentlemen.

[~Nik~]

The first one that attempts to derail this thread again will see a very ugly side of me. That's not a threat but a promise.

Carry on, gentlemen.

Why this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1060672&postcount=67) post was not deleted too ?

[The Lawspeaker]

Why this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1060672&postcount=67) post was not deleted too ?

Thanks :)

[Sunphq]

Why do you think it happen so? negroids are the most uncivilized,stupid and lazy people in the world, so according to logic southern europeans are so backwards also because of this slight SSA admixture...

I understand the point you're making. The notion that Southern Italians have significant Sub-Saharan African ancestry was created to imply that the reason for Southern Italy's lack of recent prosperity, rising poverty and organized crime was due to this admixture. Therefore the notion is more racist towards black people than it is towards Italians.

Charlie Bass failing to realize that, as he is more concerned with trying to get back at the Southern Europeans that hold bigoted views themselves. So this is his attempt at "trolling". But ironically he is perpetuating a myth/notion that is more racist towards his people.


The Bass is not mestizo and he didn't made those tags.Let the admins check who made them.

You're not Charlie bass, are you? :) I don't remember Bass referring to himself in the third person so much, from the posts I've read of his elsewhere. Also, he knows how to put a space in between full stops and commas.

But Bass is more or less a "Mestizo", like all African Americans he has significant and recent European admixture. He is probably no more than 70% African on 23andme. I wouldn't be surprised if he is a more European derived African American. It could explain a few things.

:p

[Anthropologique]

We are all mixed with Asian and African DNA but a 1-2% not is a nightmare, is acceptable.

And the admixture is extremely old (Mesolithic / Neolithic). What's the deal with Afrocentrics taking a grain of sand and attempting to make a mountain out of it? Sick!

[Anthropologique]

Southern Europeans, do have some SSA influence, they also have higher affinity to North Africa and SSA Africa, which reflects ancient and recent admixture. Denying this is foolish.

It's been shown time and time again that the huge majority of SSA admixture in ALL Euos is very ancient.

[Ibericus]

The ssa admixture is insifnigicant, about 0.02% in southern-Europe (see the study of Gonzalez-Perez et al. 2010)

[Übermensch]

I

Charlie Bass failing to realize that, as he is more concerned with trying to get back at the Southern Europeans that hold bigoted views themselves. So this is his attempt at "trolling". But ironically he is perpetuating a myth/notion that is more racist towards his people.


:p

That was exactly my point, he even didn't answer to my challenging post...

[Anthropologique]

People can't just be banned for posting something you don't agree with, unless he/she has offended a member or staff.

Professional forums like DNA-Forums ban people for being intellectually dishonest. This character Bass is posting decontextualized, exaggerated data for the most part. That's intellectual dishonesty.

[Anthropologique]

It's not just that.It is showed only 1-2% because we don't have tools to measure deep ancestry admixture.When we will have.African will be even greater in Southern Europeans.



The Bass is not a provocateur.If EastAfricans are admixed and all the time Euros point about that then why Southern Europeans are so touchy about their admixture?

Rubbish.

[Pallantides]

Get out the bongo drums and celebrate your admixture:D

[Sikeliot]

Being ancient it has little/no phenotypical impact though.

[Übermensch]

Being ancient it has little/no phenotypical impact though.

This admxture is supposed to came from North Africans during the middle ages (Saracens in Italy and Moor in Spain) but i don't think it could be possible for some reasons:

From a phenotypical point of view North Africans don't look too much west african influenced, they sometimes can resembling depigmentated aethiopids (but more like due to southwest asian admixture in the last ones than non-caucasoid admixture in the first ones) thought, anyway their SSA admixture is lower than 10% (in the case of Algerians,Tunisians and Northen Moroccans especially) in the middle ages
their SSA admix was more likely to be lower (remember that SSA admixture was brought in the Magreb due to arab slave trade) so if Southern Europeans should have 1-3% SSA admix they should have heavy moor/saracen ancestry that they don't have.
Moors didn't colonized their lands they just imposed their culture over the locals, and saracens did some sporadical rape, but that's not enough to change genetic composition of southern euro countries, so cosnidering that Saracens and Moors were even less SSA admixed than modern North Africans there's no way they could left 1-3% of SSA ancestry in Southern Europeans.
In fact in dodecad all Europeans had 0% of SSA ancestry, only Iberians have a little bit more than 0% (like 0,002% or something along that line) from the paleolithic (and this admixture has nothing to do with modern SSA that have traces of admixture from other ''archaic humans'' like herectus, somewhat like 2%).
For example Scottish or Orcadians don't have any siberian admix even thought they are partly Norse (Norwegians) that score a bit of this admixture and the Norse admixture in Scottish/Orcadians is infinitely higher than the moors/saracen admixture in Southern Europeans...

[Melina]

Source (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/08/genetic-origins-and-structure-of.html)



Pure Southern Europeans=RIP

I don't understand how the administration of this forum can ban DALTON FURY and keep you around.. :picard1:
I see this forum being flooded by black Africans in a near future.
I guess it is ok to say you are black and proud a put lies out there to make it seem true.

[Melina]

The forum should really have drawn the line after Turks. Admitting in pavement-apes from the ghetto onto an European forum is really absurd.

This is just a reflection of what is going to happen to Europe. I guess this forum administration doesn't want to be called racist. Yet there are African forums that wouldn't let one European join.

[Loki]

This is just a reflection of what is going to happen to Europe. I guess this forum administration doesn't want to be called racist. Yet there are African forums that wouldn't let one European join.

This forum's administration isn't racist.

[Loki]

The forum should really have drawn the line after Turks. Admitting in pavement-apes from the ghetto onto an European forum is really absurd.

Excuse me? Calling other people apes doesn't exactly make you sound civilized.

[Melina]

It's not just that.It is showed only 1-2% because we don't have tools to measure deep ancestry admixture.When we will have.African will be even greater in Southern Europeans.



The Bass is not a provocateur.If EastAfricans are admixed and all the time Euros point about that then why Southern Europeans are so touchy about their admixture?

There are southern Euros that are are not admixed. Stop saying something that is not true.
The Spanish would kill Africans before they step foot in Spain.

[Loki]

I don't understand how the administration of this forum can ban DALTON FURY and keep you around.. :picard1:


He was a known troll in disguise as someone else.



I see this forum being flooded by black Africans in a near future.


Fear not, little damsel ... I'll protect you darlings. :rolleyes:

[Melina]

This forum's administration isn't racist.

Of course it isn't. In fact it is letting an African come in and say they are going to take over southern Europeans.

[Loki]

Of course it isn't. In fact it is letting an African come in and say they are going to take over southern Europeans.

Link?

[Sikeliot]

Don't you guys wonder just why this site is growing and has more members than ever before? Because foaming at the mouth racist Neo-Nazi wannabes no longer post here in large numbers and thus cannot scare potentially productive, sane members away. For every poster here who wants this to be Stormfront 2.0 and leaves, I bet you could find three normal people to take their place.

Some of us just want to come here to make friends and talk about different cultures and appreciate what the world has to offer. Not everyone wants to be part of some movement.

[Melina]

Link?

"It's not just that.It is showed only 1-2% because we don't have tools to measure deep ancestry admixture.When we will have.African will be even greater in Southern Europeans.



The Bass is not a provocateur.If EastAfricans are admixed and all the time Euros point about that then why Southern Europeans are so touchy about their admixture?"

Charlie Boss

[~Nik~]

What self respecting native European would want to join an African biological anthropology forum?:eek:

That exist ?

[The Lawspeaker]

It's not just that.It is showed only 1-2% because we don't have tools to measure deep ancestry admixture.When we will have.African will be even greater in Southern Europeans.

So there is no link to proof your earlier claim that they are bragging about taking over Southern Europeans ?

[~Nik~]

Anyone who wants a racist forum and people all patting one another on the back and agreeing with everything they say should remember that Stormfront would welcome them with open arms. No one is forcing you to post here after all. Don't like it, the door is right there.

After all, for a good debate you need some resistance.

[Lena]

This forum's administration isn't racist.

It's not about being racist or not, but simple, potential disbalance.Not many can walk a fine line, or survive large influx of non-European members.

[Loki]

It's not about being racist or not, but simple, potential disbalance.Not many can walk a fine line, or survive large influx of non-European members.

I haven't yet noticed a 'large influx', and is unlikely ... this forum's theme is European, and hence always the vast majority would be European.

[1810-2010]

It's not just that.It is showed only 1-2% because we don't have tools to measure deep ancestry admixture.When we will have.African will be even greater in Southern Europeans.


You are wrong; Genetics have now tools to measure which part of admixture is recent and which one is ancient.

The average frequence of Sub-Saharian MtDNA in all Europe is of around 1%; it has been recently established that abnbout 65% of this total percentage (which means hence 0,65% of total Euro Mtdna is recent and the remaining 35% (0,35% of total EURO MtDNA) comes from Meso-Neolithiic esporadic migratory waves

source:

Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links
between Africa and EuropeMarı´a Cerezo,1,7 Alessandro Achilli,2 Anna Olivieri,3 Ugo A. Perego,3,4
Alberto Go´mez-Carballa,1 Francesca Brisighelli,1,5 Hovirag Lancioni,2
Scott R. Woodward,4 Manuel Lo´pez-Soto,6 A´ ngel Carracedo,1 Cristian Capelli,5
Antonio Torroni,3 and Antonio Salas1,7,8

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) lineages of macro-haplogroup L (excluding the derived L3 branches M and N) represent
the majority of the typical sub-Saharan mtDNA variability. In Europe, these mtDNAs account for <1% of the total but,
when analyzed at the level of control region, they show no signals of having evolved within the European continent, an
observation that is compatible with a recent arrival from the African continent. To further evaluate this issue, we analyzed
69 mitochondrial genomes belonging to various L sublineages from a wide range of European populations. Phylogeographic
analyses showed that ~65% of the European L lineages most likely arrived in rather recent historical times,
including the Romanization period, the Arab conquest of the Iberian Peninsula and Sicily, and during the period of the
Atlantic slave trade. However, the remaining 35% of L mtDNAs form European-specific subclades, revealing that there
was gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa toward Europe as early as 11,000 yr ago.

[The Lawspeaker]

I am going to purge this thread one last time.

[The Lawspeaker]

Back to the original topic: African admixture in Southern Europeans. And the first one that starts posting rubbish will, for God's my witness get a VERY HARD kick under the arse. Am I making myself very clear ? People don't need to answer: just follow up on the order or leave the thread !

[Prince Carlo]

You have to consider Northen and Central Italians that lacks completely of any african admixture, in fact higher IQ in Italy is found in Friuli and Veneto and lower in Sicily (86)

Source? Please don't quote me Richard Lynn.

[Übermensch]

Source? Please don't quote me Richard Lynn.

Beh è una cosa che disse Lynn tempo fa, non so quanto sia veritiera comunque...
In ogni caso se leggi gli interventi successivi capirai che non facevo sul serio in questo thread...

[Prince Carlo]

Beh è una cosa che disse Lynn tempo fa, non so quanto sia veritiera comunque...
In ogni caso se leggi gli interventi successivi capirai che non facevo sul serio in questo thread...

You can find on italianthro the rebuttal to Richard Lynn's Italian "IQ" Study.

[Damião de Góis]

Beh è una cosa che disse Lynn tempo fa, non so quanto sia veritiera comunque...
In ogni caso se leggi gli interventi successivi capirai che non facevo sul serio in questo thread...

His IQ lists were basically estimated based on GDP. It has no study behind it, basically because it's very difficult to determine the IQ of a nation.

[el22]

"It's not just that.It is showed only 1-2% because we don't have tools to measure deep ancestry admixture.When we will have.African will be even greater in Southern Europeans.



The Bass is not a provocateur.If EastAfricans are admixed and all the time Euros point about that then why Southern Europeans are so touchy about their admixture?"

Charlie Boss

Southern Europeans are touchy about any subject.
edit: so other than pointing out the nature of the people, you can't use that to prove anything.

[Matritensis]

One needs a lot more than one or two per cent of Sub Saharan blood to start looking or acting like our friend Mr Bass, so I don't see it as a great issue.

[1810-2010]

One needs a lot more than one or two per cent of Sub Saharan blood to start looking or acting like our friend Mr Bass.


Right: if Eastern Africans cannot be considered as "Caucasians" with around 40% of West Eurasian DNAand Western Africans are still Sub-saharians with about 8% of W.Eurasian DNA then there's nothing Sub-Saharian , even remotely, about South Europe

[zlakopistou]

There is a paper about old East Asian admixture in all European populations that will be published soon according to Davidski. The "purity" of some europeans compared to other europeans will be no longer accepted. It'll fill the gap with finns, saamis, volga people and other eastern pred-european populations with already very clear and visible east eurasian affinity.
It could also show that there are no "pure" west eurasian populations anymore, since europeans are part mong, southern euros are part mong and negro (especially the latter), middle eastern and north africans are part negro and Iranians, Pakistanis & co are part negrito...ASI... or whatever it is.

Let alone various admixture levels with Neanderthal, Denisova and other archaic humans (if it happens to be true)...

:)

[Insuperable]

There is a paper about old East Asian admixture in all European populations that will be published soon according to Davidski. The "purity" of some europeans compared to other europeans will be no longer accepted. It'll fill the gap with finns, saamis, volga people and other eastern pred-european populations with already very clear and visible east eurasian affinity.
It could also show that there are no "pure" west eurasian populations anymore, since europeans are part mong, southern euros are part mong and negro (especially the latter), middle eastern and north africans are part negro and Iranians, Pakistanis & co are part negrito...ASI... or whatever it is.

Let alone various admixture levels with Neanderthal, Denisova and other archaic humans (if it happens to be true)...

:)

What new will Davidski paper show that we do not know about?
Anyway look at the first post

[Mordid]

I can't believe this thread is still open..

[finþaų]

Let's add more fuel!


The History of African Gene Flow into Southern
Europeans, Levantines, and Jews


Previous genetic studies have suggested a history of sub-Saharan African gene flow into some West Eurasian populations after the initial dispersal out of Africa that occurred at least 45,000 years ago. However, there has been no accurate characterization of the proportion of mixture, or of its date.


We analyze genome-wide polymorphism data from about 40
West Eurasian groups to show that almost all Southern Europeans have inherited 1%–3% African ancestry with an average mixture date of around 55 generations ago, consistent with North African gene flow at the end of the Roman Empire and subsequent Arab migrations.


Levantine groups harbor 4%–15% African ancestry with an average mixture date of about 32 generations ago, consistent with close political, economic, and cultural links with Egypt in the late middle ages. We also detect 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations that we analyzed.


For the Jewish admixture, we obtain an average estimated date of about 72 generations. This may reflect descent of these groups from a common ancestral population that already had some African ancestry prior to the Jewish Diasporas.


http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2011Moorjani_PLOS.pdf


Doesn't seem the (rather miniscule I dare say) rates of West African admixture in many parts of South Europe is Neolithic as is often claimed, but rather a legacy of the Roman Empire.

[Böri]

Based on Dodecad K12b samples:

https://i.hizliresim.com/qJJ9Qq.jpg

[Leto]

In terms of autosomal DNA, the most recent study regarding African admixture in Iberian populations was conducted in April 2013 by Botigué et al. using genome-wide SNP data for over 2000 individuals, concluding that Portugal and Spain hold significant levels of North African ancestry. Estimates of shared ancestry averaged from 4% in some places to 10% in the general population, the populations of the Canary Islands outputted up to 20% of shared ancestry with north africans, although the Canary islands are a spanish exclave located in the african continent, and thus this output is not representative of the iberian population; these same results did not exceed 2% in other western or southern European populations.[1][31][32] However, contrary to past autosomal studies and to what is inferred from Y-Chromosome and Mitochondrial Haplotype frequencies(see below), it does not detect significant levels of Sub-Saharan ancestry in any European population outside the Canary Islands. Indeed, a prior 2011 autosomal study by Moorjani et al. found Sub-Saharan ancestry throughout Europe at ranges of between 1-4%, "the highest proportion of African ancestry in Europe is in Iberia (Portugal 4.2±0.3% and Spain 1.4±0.3%), consistent with inferences based on mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomes and the observation by Auton et al. that within Europe, the Southwestern Europeans have the highest haplotype-sharing with North Africans."[25][11][29] A similar 2014 study by Lazaridis et al. found an average African admixture of 13.8% (12.6% Mozabite and 1.2% Mbuti/Yoruba) in the Y-DNA markers of the Spanish population, suggesting that gene flow from Sub-Saharan and North African populations has occurred in the Spanish sample.[33]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula#North_Afr ican_influence

On Gedmatch they don't score 10%. I have like 8 Spanish samples and on Dodecad K7b the most African of them is 1.7%.

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 60.67
2 Southern 25.62
3 West_Asian 9.67
4 African 1.7
5 South_Asian 1.47
6 Siberian 0.87

By contrast, this is a half-East African half-Russian girl (no idea what kind of EA, she was adopted in Canada):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 35.21
2 African 24.83
3 Southern 23.5
4 West_Asian 10.51
5 Siberian 3.34
6 South_Asian 2.01
7 East_Asian 0.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.9% Ethiopian_Jews (Behar) + 48.1% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.51
2 52.5% Ethiopians (Behar) + 47.5% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 4
3 50.6% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) + 49.4% Somali (Dodecad) @ 4.03
4 52.7% Ethiopian_Jews (Behar) + 47.3% Russian (HGDP) @ 4.44
5 65.6% Romanians (Behar) + 34.4% MKK30 (Dodecad) @ 4.45
6 52.7% Ethiopian_Jews (Behar) + 47.3% Russian_B (Behar) @ 4.49
7 65.7% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 34.3% MKK30 (Dodecad) @ 4.52
8 53.3% Ethiopians (Behar) + 46.7% Russian (HGDP) @ 4.55
9 67% N_Italian (Dodecad) + 33% Sandawe (Henn) @ 4.57
10 53.3% Ethiopians (Behar) + 46.7% Russian_B (Behar) @ 4.67

An Algerian:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Southern 48.51
2 Atlantic_Baltic 23.87
3 African 20.98
4 West_Asian 5.35
5 Siberian 0.96
6 South_Asian 0.34

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Algerian (Dodecad) 4.22
2 Moroccan (Dodecad) 9.6
3 Moroccans (Behar) 9.94
4 Mozabite (HGDP) 11.08
5 Egyptans (Behar) 24.35

[Nordicamerican]

Some Sicilians, Calabrians and Greeks have sickle cell anemia. If you want to know the awful fact of the day. Somewhat oddly Iberia does not have sickle cell. I would have expected Iberians to have higher nig nog admixture than Italians and especially Greeks.