Ethnic Nationalism or Civic Nationalism?

[Beorn]

I have noticed a trend amongst many English nationalists on the internet to identify with civic nationalism and have even witnessed one forum actively ridicule the whole stance whilst unknowingly adhere to its core values.

My question is whether you think civic nationalism is conceivable in combating today's demographic nightmare.

[Cato]

The ethnos being the polis is good enough for the chosen ones, so why not for the rest of us? I voted "other" with the opinion that a nation based on ethnicity is well worth consideration and patriotism.

[Lenny]

whether you think civic nationalism is conceivable in combating today's demographic nightmare.A very specific question.

Civic nationalism will have a better chance to have an effect but its "effect" will probably not be to save European genepools.

[Freomæg]

Difficult question. I voted 'other' because my country is never, ever going to revert to strict ethno-nationalism, but on the other hand cannot survive merely on civic-nationalist premise.

Civic-nationalism is meaningless in our 'global society' but was perhaps more credible 50 years ago when immigrants to Europe were willing to fully adopt the customs of the host nation. And without at least somewhat of an ethno-nationalist approach, we have absolutely no grounds to fix the state of Britain and Europe. Civic-nationalism - as proven by UKIP - advocates Islam in Britain and the bonkers notion of having an Argentinian-born, Spanish citizen standing for candidacy in the UK Independence Party. Civic-nationalism ultimately means no limits.

We have to apply a 'civic' attitude towards those long-settled immigrants whilst adopting a definite 'ethnic' attitude towards all future policy.

[Brännvin]

Civic nationalism is extremely corrupt and alienating. The nation-state is that there is a need among people to live with their.

Civic nationalists do not care about ethnicity, but all accept that behave in a "certain way", but not enough to me.

For me nationalism has the duty of protects first and foremost the ethnicity, then culture, civic actions come after as consequence - Etno Nationalist short. :P

[SwordoftheVistula]

Difficult question. I voted 'other' because my country is never, ever going to revert to strict ethno-nationalism, but on the other hand cannot survive merely on civic-nationalist premise.

Civic-nationalism is meaningless in our 'global society' but was perhaps more credible 50 years ago when immigrants to Europe were willing to fully adopt the customs of the host nation. And without at least somewhat of an ethno-nationalist approach, we have absolutely no grounds to fix the state of Britain and Europe. Civic-nationalism - as proven by UKIP - advocates Islam in Britain and the bonkers notion of having an Argentinian-born, Spanish citizen standing for candidacy in the UK Independence Party. Civic-nationalism ultimately means no limits.

We have to apply a 'civic' attitude towards those long-settled immigrants whilst adopting a definite 'ethnic' attitude towards all future policy.

All good points. I think 'civic nationalism' is a stepping stone to ethnic nationalism for many people. First, you have to get people to recognize that there are distinct cultures which are not the same/equal and that the culture should be defended (civic nationalism), and then you have to get people to recognize that due to innate differences only a certain type of person is capable of engaging in that culture and capable of carrying it forward in mass.

[Kempenzoon]

I'm stuck somewhere in the middle as a cultural nationalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_nationalism).

IMO both civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism lack something.

Let's look at ethnicity. How many pure-bred Europeans do you know who take drugs, do crime, etc? Enough for me to say that ethnicity isn't enough to claim superiority.

Civic nationalism, it's a stepping stone. But the question is where that step leads. Is it a stepping stone to ethnic nationalism, or is it a stepping stone to multiculturality? I can see both happening.

Just following the law isn't enough to make one Flemish. However, I do believe that a black child who is adopted and properly re-educated from early youth until adult age, can definitely count as Flemish in the end. Wouter van Bellingen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wouter_Van_Bellingen) for example I don't see as a foreigner, though I do of course disagree with his politics. But IMO he's no worse than any of the white Flemish multiculturalists.

[Äike]

I voted ethnic nationalism, civic nationalism isn't good enough.

[Osweo]

Were we ever to actually get into government, we're going to need a great deal of ideological flexibility to pragmatically deal with a whole hornets' nest of complex problems. Nationalism shouldn't hyphenate itself, but should draw on all these separate tendencies or trends when they have something concretely useful to offer in a given situtuation. Rank and file nationalists should be prepared to not get quite EVERYTHING go their own way in terms of political programmes and policies, but should try to maintain solidarity, perhaps in the hope of later on pushing things more to their liking.

Nationalism is after all cognate with 'nature' and we are supposed to stand for a natural order of things. We will win in the end, but our way provides a way to avoid stupid unnecessary mistakes on the way. It might seem as though most of the idiotic mistakes have already been made, and we can already learn from the shit that's resulted, but let's see how much more is necessary. 'Told you so' attitudes are never popular, so a certain forebearance with those who haven't quite reached our stage is required. Most will come round, even if it takes thirty years.

[Beorn]

Nationalism shouldn't hyphenate itself, but should draw on all these separate tendencies or trends when they have something concretely useful to offer in a given situtuation. Rank and file nationalists should be prepared to not get quite EVERYTHING go their own way in terms of political programmes and policies, but should try to maintain solidarity, perhaps in the hope of later on pushing things more to their liking.

That's what has annoyed me about the whole Nationalist 'scene', if you will, is the lack of solidarity and the abundance of sheer bloody mindedness in not uniting for the one sole purpose we all crave.

[Osweo]

That's what has annoyed me about the whole Nationalist 'scene', if you will, is the lack of solidarity and the abundance of sheer bloody mindedness in not uniting for the one sole purpose we all crave.

It'll sort itself out as the threat gets clearer, and new saner moderate people drown out the worst of the old guard. Never fear! Already in process.

[SwordoftheVistula]

It'll sort itself out as the threat gets clearer, and new saner moderate people drown out the worst of the old guard. Never fear! Already in process.

The BNP has a good balance I think. They are ethnic nationalists at the core, but they campaign on civic nationalist issues to appeal to the general public.

[Vulpix]

Define more "conceivable". Is it simply the more realistic, easier to implement option? Or do you mean the most desirable solution?

[Osweo]

Define more "conceivable". Is it simply the more realistic, easier to implement option? Or do you mean the most desirable solution?
Realism and Implementability should be serious factors in determing Desirable, though! That's where all too many enthusiasts fail. :thumb001:

[Electronic God-Man]

How about the US? We already have quite a bit of civic nationalism. It hasn't made all of the African-Americans change their culture.

To be honest, the US already has many many many non-Europeans who are culturally the same (on the level of day-to-day life) as the European-Americans. This is only helped by the fact that more and more white kids are into, for example, African-American culture (rap, hip-hop, ebonics, and so on) plus all the consumerism/materialism which makes everyone about the same anyhow. Civic nationalism hasn't done the trick.

If we follow this path here, we will have a long painful journey of multiculturalism until we basically end up something like Brazil. We'll have the most basic top layer of American culture with tons of mixed race people. Oh joy.

__________________________________________________ ______________
I didn't intend to say this when I started, but I have a little anecdote to go along with this. Nearly all of my younger brother's friends are either non-white, mixed race, or are white and dating someone of another race. He has a lot of Puerto-Rican and Black friends, a couple Asian friends, three friends are half white and half Hispanic, two white kids are dating Asian girls, one is dating a Black girl, etc. With the exception of the fully Black and Puerto Rican friends, all of them seem to live their daily lives in the same general culture.

Now, before I declare victory for the One World agenda...I think they all simply don't care for much of anything but partying and playing video games. The mixed race kids and the girls dating the White guys are heavily influenced by our "culture" insomuch as they don't really give a damn about their parents' Asian, Black, or Hispanic culture.

If the US pushes for only civic nationalism the only thing that I think would need changing in their case is the problem of too much consumerism/materialism/globalization/so and so forth and they would need to actually get in touch with their real culture (wherever the hell that has gone nowadays). I am almost certain that these kids would all choose to go for the European-American culture, if they had to.

So, to reiterate, it would appear to me that civic nationalism in the US could only lead to a Brazil-esque result (which is not something I want).

[Beorn]

Define more "conceivable". Is it simply the more realistic, easier to implement option? Or do you mean the most desirable solution?

It would be a mixture of all the above. A strict ethnic-nationalism would be more desirable, but at present is not the most conceivable.

[Fortis in Arduis]

I think that civic nationalism is just yet another thin end of the multifarious wedge.

However, one cannot have ethnic nationalism without civic nationalism, so, to that end I am happy to it to exist as a democratic alternative, but cannot be the driving force, only ethnic nationalism has that capability.

[Lenny]

How about the US? We already have quite a bit of civic nationalism. It hasn't made all of the African-Americans change their culture.

To be honest, the US already has many many many non-Europeans who are culturally the same (on the level of day-to-day life) as the European-Americans. This is only helped by the fact that more and more white kids are into, for example, African-American culture (rap, hip-hop, ebonics, and so on) plus all the consumerism/materialism which makes everyone about the same anyhow. Civic nationalism hasn't done the trick.

If we follow this path here, we will have a long painful journey of multiculturalism until we basically end up something like Brazil. We'll have the most basic top layer of American culture with tons of mixed race people. Oh joy.

__________________________________________________ ______________
I didn't intend to say this when I started, but I have a little anecdote to go along with this. Nearly all of my younger brother's friends are either non-white, mixed race, or are white and dating someone of another race. He has a lot of Puerto-Rican and Black friends, a couple Asian friends, three friends are half white and half Hispanic, two white kids are dating Asian girls, one is dating a Black girl, etc. With the exception of the fully Black and Puerto Rican friends, all of them seem to live their daily lives in the same general culture.

Now, before I declare victory for the One World agenda...I think they all simply don't care for much of anything but partying and playing video games. The mixed race kids and the girls dating the White guys are heavily influenced by our "culture" insomuch as they don't really give a damn about their parents' Asian, Black, or Hispanic culture.

If the US pushes for only civic nationalism the only thing that I think would need changing in their case is the problem of too much consumerism/materialism/globalization/so and so forth and they would need to actually get in touch with their real culture (wherever the hell that has gone nowadays). I am almost certain that these kids would all choose to go for the European-American culture, if they had to.

So, to reiterate, it would appear to me that civic nationalism in the US could only lead to a Brazil-esque result (which is not something I want).

There is an undercurrent of American patriotism today that actually supports mass immigration for patriotic reasons. Note John McCain :rolleyes:.

OTOH,outright ethnic-nationalism in Anglo-America, by whites, seems doomed to be relegated to sideshow clownery or irrelevance forever more.

Still, it's better to roll the dice on the latter, because even "success" by the former means Death.

[SwordoftheVistula]

There is an undercurrent of American patriotism today that actually supports mass immigration for patriotic reasons. Note John McCain :rolleyes:.

I don't think they support mass immigration because they think it is 'patriotic', they supported McCain because he likes blowing up muslim countries.

[Electronic God-Man]

There is an undercurrent of American patriotism today that actually supports mass immigration for patriotic reasons. Note John McCain :rolleyes:.

OTOH,outright ethnic-nationalism in Anglo-America, by whites, seems doomed to be relegated to sideshow clownery or irrelevance forever more.

Still, it's better to roll the dice on the latter, because even "success" by the former means Death.

The hardest part is getting Anglo-Americans to go for it. Out of the patriotic white Americans you have two types. The first supports all this multiculturalism and immigration as you said, because for whatever reason they believe that that is what being American is all about. The other type wants to maintain who they are but believes that they will remain the same regardless of the overall composition of the US (this is more along the lines of something I would call real multiculturalism. They believe they can live their lives outside of the bigger mess).

My opinion is that the latter types will eventually disappear into the former. The cultural climate is moving in that direction. Their kids and grandkids will be more open to it. The hardest thing to do is tell someone who is a very patriotic American that although they have good intentions all of this multiculturalism is not really helping us out.

American civic nationalism is essentially the same as Roman civic nationalism. Act American/Roman and you are an American/Roman and you can stay in America/Rome. Try not to do too many barbaric things, like speaking Spanish/German. Speak English/Latin. Adopt our American/Roman ideals. Put allegiance to America/Rome first and foremost. Do all of this and you are in the clear.

[DarkZarathustra]

Nothing but Ethnic Nationalism.

[Mc Queen]

hmmmm...........that's a real problem in the romance countries. Because the romance culture is almost totally based on a form of "CIVIC nationalism". They INVENTED the civic nationalism.

Romance cultures aren't based on the biological factor, if not in rare cases.

[Brännvin]

Perharps why civic nationalism would work as well for countries with imperialist intentions.

A non-aggressive, pluralistic ethno-nationalism between nations, where a mutual nationalism between racial and national borders are respected, it would very much contribute to world peace, tolerance and respect between nations more than anything else.

[British and Proud]

I'm stuck somewhere in the middle as a cultural nationalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_nationalism).

IMO both civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism lack something.

Let's look at ethnicity. How many pure-bred Europeans do you know who take drugs, do crime, etc? Enough for me to say that ethnicity isn't enough to claim superiority.



Ethno-nationalism isn't about superiority. It is merely advocates that people have the right to a homeland, in which they are numerically superior and are thus able to conserve their culture and traditions and preserve their existence as a unique ethnic group.

Needless to say, I am an ethno-nationalist.

[Inese]

Civic nationalism is extremely corrupt and alienating. The nation-state is that there is a need among people to live with their.

Civic nationalists do not care about ethnicity, but all accept that behave in a "certain way", but not enough to me.

For me nationalism has the duty of protects first and foremost the ethnicity, then culture, civic actions come after as consequence - Etno Nationalist short. :P
Yes my opinion!! :thumb001:I am for ethnic nationalism and do not care if Russian integrate in Baltic countrys or not --- it is our country and not their country , they must go back to their own country!! In Western European countries the same with Africas, Asians, Bulgarians Albanians and all that people....

[sturmwalkure]

I am also for Ethnic Nationalism. We don't need non-Whites integrating into our gene-pools. Even if they may be culturally European, they are only superficially European. They will never been genuinely European and it is foolish and dangerous to consider them European. I don't care if they speak our languages, practice our traditions, adhere to our cultures. They are not European and never will be. Civic Nationalism isn't good enough, Ethnic Nationalism is the right way and the only way. Eventually every non-White in Europe (and their descendants, mixed-race individuals included) should be repatriated to their ancestral homelands and stripped of all rights and citizenship and cut off from all benefits. :thumb001:

[Berrocscir]

During my long transition from Marxist internationism to ethno-nationalism I passed Civic-nationalism along the way. At worst its a way for liberals like Billy Bragg to feel all patriotic and to try to direct the hoi polloi down a nice safe-neoliberal tragetory. But I suppose at best it can be a rallying point against the worst excesses of multi-culturalism. It is a media friendly(ish) way of countering the more insane socialist agenda while appearing 'respectable' - 'not like those nasty racists'. Civic-nationalism certainly appears more acceptable as realising pure ethnic communities in the west is unlikely in the short term.

Also I dislike Civic - nationalism as it demands loyalty to a state, not a people.

[Cato]

One of the only things I agree with from old Nazi propaganda is ein volk, ein reich. Let's leave the fuhrer out of the equation and take the first two:

One folk, one state.

In this context, I can have both civic and ethnic patriotism.

[Jamt]

Blut und Boden is the truth whatever we like it or not, but there is no reason to exclude civic nationalism as it contains some truth also, and it will probably help to curb immigration. I am a bit uncertain about loyalty towards the state, maybe less of that is what we need.

[Poltergeist]

Civic nationalism can thrive only in nations of ethnic homogeneity.

[Cato]

Civic nationalism can thrive only in nations of ethnic homogeneity.

I agree.

[Bobby Martnen]

Ethnic nationalism with a caveat...I accept a small number of assimilated people of foreign origin if they completely assimilate and become patriotic.

But Europe being 10% Moslem is awful