Kathimerini: Germany plans to expel Greece from eurozone

[MegaArgus1]

Kathimerini: Germany plans to expel Greece from eurozone
Greek newspaper Kathimerini, citing U.S. sources, announces that European countries, notably Germany, are planning to expel Greece from the eurozone and to "sacrifice" as an example for other countries.
http://www.kanal5.com.mk/(X(1)S(i2lsmw55blzuxx4544fumn45))/getImageThumbnail.axd?imgPath=upload/07122011grcija.jpg&imgSize=600&cropH=400

According to Greek newspaper, the U.S. administration was shocked by such plans in European countries and asked Greece to be given more time. U.S. officials were shocked by the stubbornness of their German counterparts. They warned that the victory of Greece in the euro zone may have an impact on the world economy. Kathimerini, citing U.S. sources said that the response from the European side was that the expulsion of Greece in the euro zone is already expected and therefore will have a major impact on Europe or the world. According to this newspaper, the German decision about Greece can be expected in September. / Www.kanal5.com.mk

[arcticwolf]

Poland and other EU countries that don't belong to the EURO zone take notice and stay out of the EURO zone. You don't want this mess. Hold on to your own currency.

[Queen B]

Reading this kind of news the last 3 years.
Still nothing.
:bored:

[The Lawspeaker]

"Was het maar zo'n feest !". (if only we were so lucky). Once the Eurozone starts to unravel we can leave the prison of nations with our head held high.

[Onur]

Reading this kind of news the last 3 years.
Still nothing.
:bored:
Most of the major economists and analysts in the world says that Greece will be booted out from Eurozone this winter. German finance minister also thinks as such.

You keep hearing this for a while because they tried to prepare themselves for the aftershocks from the financial market. This was the reason of why Greece didn't get booted out from Eurozone yet but eventually this will come because it`s inevitable. You will return to drachma and it will probably worth 10 times less than Albanian or Bulgarian currency.

[kabeiros]

Stupid Turko, you are pathetic.... Greece's economy -even with all our financial problems- worths ten time more than Albanian or Bulgarian economy. If Greece collapses, Albanians will die of starvation, their whole country is built by Greek money.

[Onur]

Stupid Turko, you are pathetic.... Greece's economy -even with all our financial problems- worths ten time more than Albanian or Bulgarian economy. If Greece collapses, Albanians will die of starvation, their whole country is built by Greek money.
Your economy is fake, a bubble pumped by the EU funds and loans. Your true economical "power" will be seen after you get booted out from Eurozone because only then your drachma currency will be adjusted to reflect your true economical state.

Albania is not my concern but i am sure they can manage the situation because they are used to live in harsh conditions unlike you Greeks.

[Drawing-slim]

I think greeks are such good cons they're hustling the west right now. Already making them feel bad for a debt forgiveness or another 500billion loan to start fresh.
Even if greece is booted out, immidialty they will stiff europe for that money and US will step in for a quick big loan.
Greeks are good:D

[Queen B]

Most of the major economists and analysts in the world says that Greece will be booted out from Eurozone this winter. German finance minister also thinks as such.

You keep hearing this for a while because they tried to prepare themselves for the aftershocks from the financial market. This was the reason of why Greece didn't get booted out from Eurozone yet but eventually this will come because it`s inevitable. You will return to drachma and it will probably worth 10 times less than Albanian or Bulgarian currency.

Can't wait. I love drachma :D

[Graus]

We can only hope its true. Greece has proven to be a major liability and as we Germans say: "Lieber ein Ende mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende"

[Onur]

I was browsing the Eurozone crisis webpage of daily telegraph. Here is what people said about Greece in the last 2 days;


The deputy leader of her CDU party's parliamentary group, Michael Fuchs, has ratched up the pressure on Athens by warning Germany could veto Greece's next aid package.

Fuchs told German daily newspaper Handelsblatt that Germany will not agree to further aid unless Athens meets all its targets. In an interview published this morning, Fuchs said:

You can quote me: even if the glass is half-full, that is not enough for a new aid package.... Germany cannot and will not agree to that.

Another sign that September is going to be a crucial month in the eurocrisis, with the Troika due to publish its verdict on Greece's progress in a few weeks time. That report will determine whether Athens receives its next tranche of aid, worth €31.5bn.

-----------------

Michael Fuchs isn't the only German politician taking a pop at Greece today. Philipp Rösler, economy minister, declared over the weekend that he was disappointed with Athens over its 'failure' to implement reforms.

Rösler (who has previous form for criticising Greece), declared that "I've lost my illusions" over Greece's ability to change. He told weekly news magazine Focus:

I proposed with German businesses a whole series of support measures for the Greek government. The Greeks have hardly responded to our offers.

---------------

New GDP data from Greece has shown that its battered economy shrank by 6.2% in the second quarter of 2012, on a year-on-year basis.

UPDATE: Here's a rough-and-ready table of Greek GDP over the last five quarters, showing how today's data is a slight improvement on the recent trend:

Q2 2012: -6.2% year-on-year

Q1 2012: -6.5% y/y

Q4 2011: -7.5% y/y

Q3 2011: - 5% y/y

Q2 2011: -7.3% y/y

In other words, the Greek economy is now more than 13% smaller than two years ago. Such a plunge in economic output is characteristic of a depression, not a mere recession.

This graph, created by Chris Williamson of Markit, shows how the Greece economy has been contracting almost non-stop since the start of 2009 (and includes the 6.2% contraction reported this morning)

The blue bars show Greek GDP data, on a year-on-year basis, while the orange line tracks Markit's PMI data (which measures private sector activity):
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/8/13/1344851269451/-460.png

-------------------

Some interesting, and potentially rather worrying, data this afternoon shows that the European Central Bank's funding to Greek banks fell very sharply last month, with the Greek central bank picking up the emergency funding tab.

The Bank of Greece reported that it had provided a total of €106.31bn in emergency liquidity to the Greek banking sector by the end of July, up from almost €62bn last month. A rise of €44.3bn.

ECB funding to Greek banks dropped from €73.6bn to nearly €24bn. A fall of almost €50bn.

Greek banks have been reliant on help from the ECB and their own central bank since other commercial banks lost confidence in them.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/aug/13/eurozone-crisis-angela-merkel-greece#block-502924bb95cb4ede7cefc1c3

By looking at the graph above, we can see that the Greek economy stopped growing since January 2008 and started to shrink after 2009 and it shrank 13% since then. The forecasts says that it will continue to shrink in the foreseeable future.

German deputy leaders, finance minister and the deputies from Merkel`s party keep saying that they are fed up with Greece anymore. There are elections coming up in Germany next year and Merkel cannot remain silent and continue to fund Greek economy against people`s will otherwise she will loose the elections for sure.

It looks like ECB stopped funding Greek banks too.

All these are indications of the end of Greek drama. A revolution is possible in Greece anymore with over 55% youth unemployment but i hope it wont be a fascist one otherwise things can turn very ugly.

[safrax]

Kathimerini: Germany plans to expel Greece from eurozone

guess its the best Greece, Italy and so on leaving the Eurozone.

[The Lawspeaker]

guess its the best Greece, Italy and so on leaving the Eurozone.

The best thing that could happen is the Eurozone going bye bye and the EU along with it.

[Grizzly]

Stupid Turko, you are pathetic.... Greece's economy -even with all our financial problems- worths ten time more than Albanian or Bulgarian economy. If Greece collapses, Albanians will die of starvation, their whole country is built by Greek money.


lol don't be mad. Albanians are not the ones asking for Dutch money to buy bread. Your country is bankrupt, unemployment is soaring, people are flooded with debts, people are losing their homes, etc.

Here's how daily life (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/mar2012/gree-m14.shtml) in Greece is looking like in greece


It is officially estimated that a third of Greeks now live below the poverty line, but things are much worse in reality. According to the national statistics bureau ELSTAT, more than 3 million (27.7 percent) of Greece’s 11 million people were already on the edge of poverty or social exclusion in 2010, at the start of the crisis. Since then, the conditions of life for millions have worsened immeasurably.


This entrenched poverty can be seen throughout Athens. In the last year alone an estimated 20,000 people have been homeless in Greece’s capital. This new army of homeless people has had to endure one of the coldest winters in living memory.

[Turkophagos]

Nobody can expel Greece (or any other country) from the Eurozone. Countries can leave it only voluntarily.


Germans are free to leave Eurozone whenever they wish.

[The Lawspeaker]

All the more reason for us to be the first to leave the Eurozone and the EU (along with Germany) and let the failed states known as the garlic countries a.k.a Club Med fall to the bottom.

[Ouistreham]

"Germany plans to expel Greece from eurozone"

The sooner, the better. But:


Nobody can expel Greece (or any other country) from the Eurozone. Countries can leave it only voluntarily.

... which is the very reason for which the Eurozone is hopelessly doomed.

In this crisis there'll be only one big winner, if any: the country that leaves the EZ first.

[The Lawspeaker]

"Germany plans to expel Greece from eurozone"

The sooner, the better. But:



... which the very reason for which the Eurozone is hopelessly doomed.

In this crisis there'll be only one big winner, if any: the country that leaves the EZ first.

And please let it be us. :thumb001:

[Turkophagos]

All the more reason for us to be the first to leave the Eurozone and the EU (along with Germany) and let the failed states known as the garlic countries a.k.a Club Med fall to the bottom.


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q112/tofulovesanime/gifs/greetinggoodbye%20gifs/goodbye.gif

[The Lawspeaker]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q112/tofulovesanime/gifs/greetinggoodbye%20gifs/goodbye.gif

Let's be honest about it: Greece is a failed state.

[Turkophagos]

Let's be honest about it: Greece is a failed state.



Dutch is a failed nation.

[Annihilus]

If financial aid is cut off to Greece I see big problems because they are a net importer of food, there could be African scenario for them ahaed.

[The Lawspeaker]

If financial aid is cut off to Greece I see big problems because they are a net importer of food, there could be African scenario for them ahaed.

Maybe they should start growing food instead of growing debt. It would actually give them an economy.


Dutch is a failed nation.
And we and the Germans are the ones that keep you pathetic lot afloat. ;)

[Turkophagos]

And please let it be us. :thumb001:


http://www.strangezoo.com/images/content/8690.gif

[The Lawspeaker]

http://www.strangezoo.com/images/content/8690.gif

You would be penniless then because I think that we and the Germans would take back all the money.. with interest and then you can see the real size of your economy.. a bit like Rwanda. :thumb001:

[Onur]

If financial aid is cut off to Greece I see big problems because they are a net importer of food, there could be African scenario for them ahaed.
I read about that too like they even import tomatoes and peppers from northern European states.

I wonder how is this possible for a country in mediterranean. Are they THAT lazy? Man, you don't need to do much around here, even if you sprinkle few seeds on the ground, it grows like crazy in our climate. I really wonder how Greeks became like this.

[Turkophagos]

And we and the Germans are the ones that keep you pathetic lot afloat. ;)

Drugs, prostitution, liberalism, multiculturalism, ethical and moral decline.



But you're succesfull nations because you have money! Who's the Levantine now, you Frankish Euro-Jew?

[The Lawspeaker]

I read about that too like they even import tomatoes and peppers from northern European state.

I wonder how is this possible for a country in mediterranean. Are they THAT lazy? Man, you don't need to do much around here, even if you sprinkle few seeds on the ground, it grows like crazy in our climate. I really wonder how Greeks became like this.

They can't be the same race as the Ancient Greeks, mate. I don't buy that at all. And if they are then they are the prime example of dysgenics.

[Annihilus]

I read about that too like they even import tomatoes and peppers from northern European states.

I wonder how is this possible for a country in mediterranean. Are they THAT lazy? Man, you don't need to do much around here, even if you sprinkle few seeds on the ground, it grows like crazy in our climate. I really wonder how Greeks became like this.

North lend them money to buy their products, fake economic growth. Now they are both crying.

[The Lawspeaker]

Drugs, prostitution, liberalism, multiculturalism, ethical and moral decline.

You read too much FOX as everything is focussed on Amsterdam (where the Dutch don't even run the show and have not done it for the last 40 years). And guess what: we're not nearly as corrupt as Greece

[The Lawspeaker]

Feta cheese still going strong, lol

In Denmark. :thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

Greece is the prime example of the truthfulness of the Dutch slogan:

Behaalde resultaten uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst !

(Results from the past offer no guarantees for the future).

[Partizan]

I think I should ask my parents for some Greek islands as birthday gift in November :thumbs (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/24/greece-islands-sale-save-economy)

[The Lawspeaker]

I think I should ask my parents for some Greek islands as birthday gift in November :thumbs (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/24/greece-islands-sale-save-economy)

We might just as well buy up the whole country since we need Lebensraum. :D

[Annihilus]

Greece is the prime example of the truthfulness of the Dutch slogan:

Behaalde resultaten uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst !

(Results from the past offer no guarantees for the future).

I think it does actually, Euro is not a new concept, has been tried before. And guess because of who it failed back then:p

Btw, the day they introduce the Drachme I'm buying land, and lot's of it hehe

[The Lawspeaker]

I think it does actually, Euro is not a new concept, has been tried before. And guess because of who it failed back then:p

Good point. :thumb001::D But I was more referring to Ancient Greece to which the modern Greek can't be related.. it just can't be.

[Graus]

I dislike cheating parasites just as much as everyone else but to be fair its not Greeces fault. The whole currency was deeply flawed from the beginning, northern and southern economies and mentalities are just way too different, to even hope it could work out in the end.
I really wish we would get out of this mess already but if our history proves anything we are just too stubborn to change a once choose path,at least not short of a disaster of epic proportions.

[Anusiya]

I read about that too like they even import tomatoes and peppers from northern European states.

I wonder how is this possible for a country in mediterranean. Are they THAT lazy? Man, you don't need to do much around here, even if you sprinkle few seeds on the ground, it grows like crazy in our climate. I really wonder how Greeks became like this.

Onur, don't be so naive. The European economy is based in such a way, that it is more profitable to import certain goods rather than produce them yourself. The German infrastructure is very competent and can cary daily thousands of tons of goods. Of course, this is no excuse for Greece not having upgraded theirs throughout the years passed, however may I remind you that in the past, Greek farmers had to lay waste to their harvests because it was against EU laws to produce more than a required amount? I personally think that this whole EU think was setup in such a horrendous way, so German-oriented, that provided neither the required diversity, nor the guaranteed prosperity and growth. And perhaps LIGHT YEARS away from integration.

I don't think anyone agreed in having a common currency so that Germany will be "stable" and prosperous. I mean, where is our share in it? What is the average German worker's share in the last decade? What has changed in their salaries? Did they become any richer? No. Their paychecks have not changed a bit to the better. What is this? We all work and cater, so that Germany won't erupt into another pre-war dreadnought? I hope someone understands a bit of what I am trying to say.

And please, stop saying bad things about ALL Greeks. Many older generations helped rebuild Germany as workers. What is MY share in this? Did I eat up the commision's money in expensive escorts or night clubs? Or did I take 'em to my favorite offshore in Galapagos?

[Onur]

Onur, don't be so naive. The European economy is based in such a way, that it is more profitable to import certain goods rather than produce them yourself. The German infrastructure is very competent and can cary daily thousands of tons of goods. Of course, this is no excuse for Greece not having upgraded theirs throughout the years passed, however may I remind you that in the past, Greek farmers had to lay waste to their harvests because it was against EU laws to produce more than a required amount? I personally think that this whole EU think was setup in such a horrendous way, so German-oriented, that provided neither the required diversity, nor the guaranteed prosperity and growth. And perhaps LIGHT YEARS away from integration.
Yes, i agree to that. This is how EU is designed in the first place. It`s based on the production of Germany and the consumption of the rest but nevertheless, Greece shouldn't succumb into that so easily. I mean, whats the reason of a mediterranean country couldn't produce enough tomatoes and potatoes for itself? It`s something unbelievable.

Btw, don't be so sure about Germany either because if the consumers dies, then the producer also goes bust in the end. Thats why Germany tried so hard to keep you alive on a constant life-support even if it`s a vegetative state.

[Onur]

I just saw this one. Former Deputy Prime Minister of Greece, Theodoros Pangalos confesses about how they managed to bankrupt their country in his book;

Theodoros Pangalos: We are still bingeing together
Deputy Prime Minister in PASOK’s last government and long-time minister Theodoros Pangalos has kept his promise and published a book entitled "We all binged together." It is an e-book, in which he has collected various examples of corruption, illegal appointments in the public sector, frauds and receiving of bribes in order to demonstrate that not only politicians are to blame for the accumulation of the excessive public debt.

The book has 175 pages and those willing to read it will have to pay 3.99 euro. The former minister states in the preface, "The citizens are involved in state governing through their deeds, by not responding to injustice, because they themselves are involved by electing the wrong people in power. Therefore, they are responsible for their choices."

According to him, the phrase "we all binged together," which made furious a large part of the society, means that all Greeks are to blame for forming the budget deficit and the present state of Greece. Theodoros Pangalos strongly criticizes in his book the left parties and their positions. He calls SYRIZA a "party of communist inspiration" and argues that definitions like "the thieves are in parliament" and "give us our money back" are the result of "immense stupidity and lack of information. They show that there are communist and fascist dark cores in Greece, which ended up on the same side of the sidewalk."

He adds, "The united ultra revolutionaries, i.e. the hooded supporters of SYRIZA and those of Golden Dawn are the people who organized the protests against the country's president during the military parade in Thessaloniki on 28 October." In response to the question "what is the colour of the debt? Is it blue, green, red?" Theodoros Pangalos presents data from 1974 to today and criticizes the left parties for not being productive in their opposition activities and for not making real proposals. "During all these years, no representative of the left had opposed an assignment and salary increases. In fact, they wanted more and more social benefits."

The former minister criticizes the position of the left during the protests of discontented too. "None of them said anything about the swearing at parliament and the threats that politicians would leave the country by helicopters at night. It was just the opposite. Mr. Tsipras stated in parliament that we would be afraid to go out of our homes."

Are only the politicians to blame for the corruption in Greece? Theodoros Pangalos’ answer is negative. "The real corruption among politicians neither was nor will soon be decisive for today's economic and political situation in the country." He calls SYRIZA, Independent Greeks and Golden Dawn the "parties of stupidity and bigotry" because "they make the people a screaming crowd and an apotheosis of idiocy with the sole purpose of prevailing in the elections."

Where did the money go?
Theodoros Pangalos makes a very simple calculation. According to him, 20 out of 350 billion euro disappeared in the form of bribes, corruption, bribery and the like. The remaining 94 per cent were spent for extremely high salaries, benefits and nonexistent overtime, fictitious positions of managers and directors, for the payment of large single payments on retirement and for pensions in general as well as for illegal social benefits and allowances.

He next supports his thesis with examples of daily corruption in hospitals, tax offices, planning offices, regional offices and the National Insurance Institute. Individuals and employees in specific state institutions, many of whom do not hide their names, have sent them to him. Theodoros Pangalos urges the readers of his e-book to continue to send their stories, as he is planning to publish new editions.

Vicious daily practices
One of the examples is presented by a citizen with initials G.V. He claims he had been assured that he would be appointed in the public administration if he provided voters for candidates for deputies. "In 1989, a member of New Democracy offered me to submit an application for appointment to the National Insurance Institute. In return, I was required to secure 100 votes for him in the elections and to give him a list of the names of those voters. In 1990, a PASOK candidate for deputy made the same proposal to me but for appointment to the agricultural school. In 1992, I had a third proposal by a leftist trade unionist who promised me an appointment in the Public Power Corporation DEI. I refused them all and kept my dignity, but I have never managed to find a regular job and I am unemployed today. I tried to start my own business twice but I could not because I had no money to give bribes to all who wanted - from the employee in the social security fund to the fire-fighter and the secretary of the chamber of commerce. They wanted envelopes with money and they were many. They were a lot! I had to give a bribe to take a driving license, because I would never get it otherwise. I gave a bribe when my child was born because my wife would give birth in the street otherwise. I gave a bribe for the cardiac surgery on my father, because he would be operated after his death otherwise. As for the companies, in which I worked, the tax officers had often passed by to get their envelopes with money and everything was fine."

As expected, Theodoros Pangalos’ e-book has sparked angry as well as positive responses. He said in an interview with Sky Radio today that the correct title of the book is supposed to be "We are still bingeing together," because the waste of public money and corruption continue to dominate as before.

14 August 2012

http://www.grreporter.info/en/theodoros_pangalos_we_are_still_bingeing_together/7461

[Anusiya]

If you believe that by producing abundant food supply you will solve your economy's problems, you are surely mistaking, especially in 2012.

Also Mr Pangalos should share with us how many billions of euros went from Siemens, Hochtief, Deutsche Telekomm, into political officials' pockets and bank accounts in Switzerland.

I say the hell with it. Let it go. The reason why the keep us in, is because Germany's bonds last to a specific undisclosed year. They have invested, it's their own right. But after that, I don't want to repeat it. I would have preferred a more French or British Europe.

[Queen B]

And we and the Germans are the ones that keep you pathetic lot afloat. ;)
Its the Germans, actually, not your pathetic lot :coffee:



Also Mr Pangalos should share with us how many billions of euros went from Siemens, Hochtief, Deutsche Telekomm, into political officials' pockets and bank accounts in Switzerland.

I say the hell with it. Let it go. The reason why the keep us in, is because Germany's bonds last to a specific undisclosed year. They have invested, it's their own right. But after that, I don't want to repeat it. I would have preferred a more French or British Europe.
Siemens (the... guess what! German company) or other blackmarket thru Netherlands moeny ..

I read about that too like they even import tomatoes and peppers from northern European states.

I wonder how is this possible for a country in mediterranean. Are they THAT lazy? Man, you don't need to do much around here, even if you sprinkle few seeds on the ground, it grows like crazy in our climate. I really wonder how Greeks became like this.

Probably is too much for you to understand that the problem is not that they don't produce. :picard2:

[The Lawspeaker]

Its the Germans, actually, not your pathetic lot :coffee:
:
Wrong again. it's both the Netherlands and Germany (and other countries such as Finland).

[Queen B]

Wrong again. it's both the Netherlands and Germany (and other countries such as Finland).
Not at all. The overhelming majority of the money come from Germany, and then, France. Your contribution is small compared to them .

Those countries are those who were against the bailout - the most.

[The Lawspeaker]

Not at all. The overhelming majority of the money come from Germany, and then, France. Your contribution is small compared to them .

Those countries are those who were against the bailout - the most.
We have contributed billions as well and you forget that through the ESM we would have to cough up 40 billion (http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/7264/Schuldencrisis/article/detail/3260549/2012/05/24/Kamer-stemt-in-met-Nederlandse-bijdrage-aan-Europees-noodfonds-ESM.dhtml) if needed to help you miserable fraudsters.

[Queen B]

We have contributed billions as well and you forget that through the ESM we would have to cough up 40 billion (http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/7264/Schuldencrisis/article/detail/3260549/2012/05/24/Kamer-stemt-in-met-Nederlandse-bijdrage-aan-Europees-noodfonds-ESM.dhtml) if needed to help you miserable fraudsters.
If you don't like it, get out of EUrozone. Simple as that.
:bored::bored:

[The Lawspeaker]

If you don't like it, get out of EUrozone. Simple as that.
:bored::bored:

The Eurozone would have worked quite well without Greece and the other garlic countries.

[Queen B]

The Eurozone would have worked quite well without Greece and the other garlic countries.
And? If you don't like us, you can kick us out.
If you can't , you can get yourself out.

PS: Garlic is good for the health :cool:

[The Lawspeaker]

If you can't , you can get yourself out.

Might work too. It would topple the EU as Germany would follow and no one would be able to guarantee the 40 billion Euro's for the ESM. Consequence: Greece would have to pay up every single cent it owns us or the Acropolis would be rebuild in Berlin and the ruins of the Delphi Oracle in the Open Air Museum in Arnhem. ;)

[Queen B]

Might work too. It would topple the EU as Germany would follow and no one would be able to guarantee the 40 billion Euro's for the ESM. Consequence: Greece would have to pay up every single cent it owns us or the Acropolis would be rebuild in Berlin and the ruins of the Delphi Oracle in the Open Air Museum in Arnhem. ;)

No, actually there is a better plan.
Greece gets out of EU, default, and let you continue in Eurodream , without getting anything back :bored:

In 5-10 years, I ll be (financially) able to have my good-old-frappe at acropolis, and think ''we should have done it earlier''.

[The Lawspeaker]

In 5-10 years, I ll be (financially) able to have my good-old-frappe at acropolis, and think ''we should have done it earlier''.
That's o.k. I will have to pay 2.50 DM for it at the Acropolis before taking the U-Bahn to the Unter den Linden. :thumb001:

The Greeks are asking (http://www.nu.nl/economie/2884909/griekenland-vraagt-meer-tijd.html) for even more time and even more money. The proper answer: Pay up !.

[Anusiya]

Might work too. It would topple the EU as Germany would follow and no one would be able to guarantee the 40 billion Euro's for the ESM. Consequence: Greece would have to pay up every single cent it owns us or the Acropolis would be rebuild in Berlin and the ruins of the Delphi Oracle in the Open Air Museum in Arnhem. ;)

Nobody buys that anymore. You've got a whole new market in the Middle East and East that opened up recently. There's billions of people out there who would buy that mediocre Phillips LED TV. As for the debt, it's mostly objective. And needs to be thouroughly checked as to what exactly they would be owing you. As for me, I don't owe anyone anything.

I blame the Swedish!

[Queen B]

That's o.k. I will have to pay 2.50 DM for it at the Acropolis before taking the U-Bahn to the Unter den Linden. :thumb001:

Be my guest, or better " Molon Lave''


The Greeks are asking (http://www.nu.nl/economie/2884909/griekenland-vraagt-meer-tijd.html) for even more time and even more money. The proper answer: Pay up !.
No ''mister''. Not the Greeks. The Greek government.
Why don't you give the proper answer then ?

[The Lawspeaker]

Nobody buys that anymore. You've got a whole new market in the Middle East and East that opened up recently. There's billions of people out there who would buy that mediocre Phillips LED TV. As for the debt, it's mostly objective. And needs to be thouroughly checked as to what exactly they would be owing you. As for me, I don't owe anyone anything.

I blame the Swedish! Philips, unlike anything Greek apart from frappe, is quality. And yes: we can be very happy about those new markets but you made debts so you will pay.

[The Lawspeaker]

Be my guest
And on my way back home I visit the Delphi.. err Arnhem Oracle in the open-air museum. :thumb001:


No ''mister''. Not the Greeks. The Greek government.
Why don't you give the proper answer then ?
Make me Prime Minister and I bloody well will. 5 minutes after having taken the oath. Greece made debts, the Greeks didn't pay their taxes so now they should not get anymore time and not a penny more.

[Queen B]

Make me Prime Minister and I bloody well will. 5 minutes after having taken the oath. Greece made debts, the Greeks didn't pay their taxes so now they should not get anymore time and not a penny more.
Isn't Netherlands a democratic country? Join elections, and let people choose you.
:D

[The Lawspeaker]

Isn't Netherlands a democratic country? Join elections, and let people choose you.
:D

In theory. In reality you need a lot of money just to register as a party.

[Anusiya]

Philips, unlike anything Greek apart from frappe, is quality. And yes: we can be very happy about those new markets but you made debts so you will pay.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but, for once more...I didn't make any debts. :thumb001:100% debtproof :thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but, for once more...I didn't make any debts. :thumb001:100% debtproof :thumb001:

LOL. I am sure. A debt-free Greek that paid it's taxes is like a debt-free Greek and that paid it's taxes: non-existent.

[Queen B]

LOL. I am sure. A debt-free Greek that paid it's taxes is like a debt-free Greek and that paid it's taxes: non-existent.
Tuan, you are getting paranoid.

You have to realize that not all Greeks avoid taxes, in fact, the regular ones, the ones that don't own a business, are always paying taxes. They can't avoid it, just like the ''freelancers'' or business men.

More than this, having a Dutch that have never worked in his life, insulting me ( who I am debt free and I didn't created a mess , only bearing the consicouenses ), who work my ass of working, and paying my ass of in taxes, is getting furstrating.

Do you know what work is ?

I m working more than 12 hours, in 40'C and my work requires to be standing.
My father is a heart transplant patient - a real handicapped person - and he still works for less money than you get from benefit, probably.
Both of my old brothers work more than 16 hours per day (2 jobs each), and jobs that requires physical strength, not sitting in front of a PC, scratching their balls.
My small brother, is going to UNI, works full time at the same time.

So, if anyone is going to preach me , is someone that have done something MORE than me or my family in his life.

[The Lawspeaker]

Tuan, you are getting paranoid.
.
The Greek problem is one of corruption and tax evasion and that's something you cannot deny. The Greeks frauded themselves into the Euro by blatantly producing incorrect figures.

I think that the Greeks should not have been allowed in the E.E.C/EU let alone the Euro. But then again: Britain (in her days during the 1970s to 1990s) and Ireland should not have been allowed either and if Italy would not have been a founding member it would have been better for all of us if they had stayed out as well.

[Queen B]

The Greek problem is one of corruption and tax evasion and that's something you cannot deny. The Greeks frauded themselves into the Euro by blatantly producing incorrect figures.

This is a problem but this is NOT the only problem. Its one of the problems and defenately not the most serious one.


- Politicians stealing money to create their villas
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akis_Tsochatzopoulos)
- Politicians giving projects to those who bribe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Greek_bribery_scandal), not to those who deserved it, hence spending enormous money where is not needed.
- Government invest Greek money to stocks exchange and lose it.
- Tax evasion from businessmen and politicians
etc.

[The Lawspeaker]

This is a problem but this is NOT the only problem. Its one of the problems and defenately not the most serious one.


- Politicians stealing money to create their villas
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akis_Tsochatzopoulos)
- Politicians giving projects to those who bribe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Greek_bribery_scandal), not to those who deserved it, hence spending enormous money where is not needed.
- Government invest Greek money to stocks exchange and lose it.
- Tax evasion from businessmen and politicians
etc.
And the people themselves never stole a penny.. :coffee:

[Queen B]

And the people themselves never stole a penny.. :coffee:

Personally, I didn't, so the preaching to me is useless.

[The Lawspeaker]

Personally, I didn't, so the preaching to me is useless.

Maybe you're one of the few then.

[Anusiya]

The Greek problem is one of corruption and tax evasion and that's something you cannot deny. The Greeks frauded themselves into the Euro by blatantly producing incorrect figures.

I think that the Greeks should not have been allowed in the E.E.C/EU let alone the Euro. But then again: Britain (in her days during the 1970s to 1990s) and Ireland should not have been allowed either and if Italy would not have been a founding member it would have been better for all of us if they had stayed out as well.

I agree, in fact we should have followed Sweden's or Britain's example. :thumb001:

Look, I am sure there are people who ate well from the European funds, no deny in that, but you can't blame an old lady that benefited from a little agricultural pension, of which the most part was ending up in the pharmacist or the grocer's.

WE NEED TO SEE WHERE THE REAL MONEY FLOWED.

[The Lawspeaker]

I agree, in fact we should have followed Sweden's or Britain's example. :thumb001:

Look, I am sure there are people who ate well from the European funds, no deny in that, but you can't blame an old lady that benefited from a little agricultural pension, of which the most part was ending up in the pharmacist or the grocer's.

WE NEED TO SEE WHERE THE REAL MONEY FLOWED.

In her case: to having to bribe the surgeon, the family doctor, pharmacy in order to get some treatment for her ailments. And those paid off the police and the politicians who paid off the bankers, building companies etc.

From now on I will refer to fraudulent dealings as "pulling a Greek" or having "Greek accounts".

[Anusiya]

For a Dutch you don't seem to have the fundamental entrepreneurial knowledge your folk have. That's too bad. :picard2: Sure you aren't living on well-fare?

[The Lawspeaker]

For a Dutch you don't seem to have the fundamental entrepreneurial knowledge your folk have.
Corruption has nothing to do with entrepreneurship. If it has for Greeks then it shows the obvious lack of Christian/ European shame and morality that is present in the Greek psyche and confirms my idea that the modern Greeks are Levantines.

[Anusiya]

Corruption has nothing to do with entrepreneurship. If it has for Greeks then it shows the obvious lack of Christian/ European shame and morality that is present in the Greek psyche and confirms my idea that the modern Greeks are Levantines.

Well, if your point is that we are different, yes, that is quite true. However let me remind you that I cannot be the Greek you want me to be. We are not the idealised version you were brought up with, mainly based on 19th century classical Greece revisionism blended with Protestant values, just enough to "fit the bill". Nietzsche was thorough with this. And rather...prophetic as it proved a bit later on. :rolleyes2:

[Graus]

Ok first of all, the Euro wasnt designed to benefit Germany, the opposite is true actually. The French demanded we had to sacrifice our beloved currency in order to get their approval for our reunification, because they still feared us after all these years and we didnt benefit until 2008 when the unreliability of many nations became too apparent.

This being said, I am a little disgusted with the Greek attitude in general, you guys would literally blame anyone for your own shortcomings, including the very people you are depending on. And while some Greeks are moe too blame than others very few of you are innocent. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to recognise the direction in which your country was heading, you dont have an industry to speak and even if you had, who would be stupid enough to work in it, if you could become part of one of the biggest, most overpriced and inefficent bureaucracies in history? Your politicians were bribing you with new sponsored jobs and you people were more than happy to take them.
So dont ask for our sympathy or respect, thats something to be earned.

[Anusiya]

Ok first of all, the Euro wasnt designed to benefit Germany, the opposite is true actually. The French demanded we had to sacrifice our beloved currency in order to get their approval for our reunification, because they still feared us after all these years and we didnt benefit until 2008 when the unreliability of many nations became too apparent.



I see a lot of "European" solidarity in your words. Those damn French, huh? Euro or not, Germany holds more than 50% of Europe's industrial power. You build virtually everything, from pins to carriers. That's far from integration, the way I see it.

Answer me this simple question then. Why now all this fuss? They knew from the start that Italy was paying fake blind people pensions, Spain was declaring falsely goods as domestic to get funds, Greece's officials getting bribed by the ton to promote German interests. Either way, Merkel will get kicked out soon, and then perhaps we will see some light. I say, we either integrate or split. That simple.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Why don't Greeks return to their former currency for domestic market while using Euros for trading and external needs? Like running a parallel currency system, won't be the first nation which did it and in these times it certainly won't be the last one.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Nobody can expel Greece (or any other country) from the Eurozone. Countries can leave it only voluntarily.

Actually you might wanna check that up again. :thumb001:

[Sultan Suleiman]

Btw, the day they introduce the Drachme I'm buying land, and lot's of it hehe

Except for landgrab, the turmoil from reintroduction of Drachma would be good time to buy quite a few stocks in their state companies which will recover after the initial shock.

[Graus]

I see a lot of "European" solidarity in your words. Those damn French, huh? Euro or not, Germany holds more than 50% of Europe's industrial power. You build virtually everything, from pins to carriers. That's far from integration, the way I see it.

Answer me this simple question then. Why now all this fuss? They knew from the start that Italy was paying fake blind people pensions, Spain was declaring falsely goods as domestic to get funds, Greece's officials getting bribed by the ton to promote German interests. Either way, Merkel will get kicked out soon, and then perhaps we will see some light. I say, we either integrate or split. That simple.

Quite a socialist way to put it: "would the smart kid please shut up, he makes his pupils looking lazy and stupid" Really shame on us Northern countries for being more successful. You complain about my lack of solidarity? Where was your solidarity when you people brought this mess upon us? But you are right,I consider the whole union a grave mistake.

But to answer your question it was easy to pretend there wasnt a problem until it really hit our pockets, there was also a lot of ideology involved, the social democrats who invited you to join, did so for historical reasons, they knew you were unfit to do so but in their naivete, they believed a country as small as Greece wouldnt be a problem.
If I were you, I wouldnt be too sure about Merkel leaving anytime soon. Most citizens consider her rather too soft than the other way around and I cant see who could replace her.

[Anusiya]

Greece consitutes a mere 5% of the Eurozone's gross debt. Find the reasons elsewhere. Oh, by God I hope she gets kicked out ASAP.

[Graus]

I was talking about your part of the mess, not the crisis as a whole, because prtty much the whole south is the problem here.
The next election will be dominated by foreign policy and if anything the German people want a tougher stance. Merkel is still our most popular politician while her possible challengers arent well-liked. I am not happy with her either but obviously for other reasons, anyway looks like she isnt going anywhere anytime soon.

[AkisGreece]

..

[Queen B]

For a Dutch you don't seem to have the fundamental entrepreneurial knowledge your folk have. That's too bad. :picard2: Sure you aren't living on well-fare?
He does live on well-fare.
Why don't Greeks return to their former currency for domestic market while using Euros for trading and external needs? Like running a parallel currency system, won't be the first nation which did it and in these times it certainly won't be the last one.
Because they don't want us to get out of the mess, obviously.
Actually you might wanna check that up again. :thumb001:
That's true, actually. In the eurozone rules, there is no such thing as expelling someone. Only if a country voluntarily wants to get out, it will.
And I wish we could get out, or never enter.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Because they don't want us to get out of the mess, obviously.

It isn't up to them.

[The Lawspeaker]

-----
Corruption and bribery has nothing to do with entrepreneurship.

[Prince Carlo]

Greece consitutes a mere 5% of the Eurozone's gross debt.

That's insignificant. What really matters is the Debt-to-GDP ratio.

[Anusiya]

That's insignificant. What really matters is the Debt-to-GDP ratio.

Yes, and according to that each and every Greek citizen - in theory at least - owes about 55.000 euros to the lenders. Our GDP has fallen drastically from 240 bln to less than 180. Why shouldn't I feel angry, load up an M-16 and start making people dance, when I have to pay 55 thousand euros, out of which I don't owe a single penny? :D

But there are other ways for one to see debt. Debt, longterm may well be an investment. The more things we do, the more the prospects of getting out of this mess. I think it is more of a continuous graph, with no end, only ups and downs. The key is infrastructure.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Corruption has nothing to do with entrepreneurship. If it has for Greeks then it shows the obvious lack of Christian/ European shame and morality that is present in the Greek psyche and confirms my idea that the modern Greeks are Levantines.

Both terms Christian and European are Greek in origin. Furthermore, Europe herself was a Levantine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_%28mythology%29


In Greek mythology Europa (Greek Ευρώπη Eurṓpē) was a Phoenician woman of high lineage, from whom the name of the continent Europe has ultimately been taken.[1]

I accept that we are not Germanics, but... European? Christian?

The New Testament was written in Greek dear! Get serious...

[The Lawspeaker]

Both terms Christian and European are Greek in origin. Furthermore, Europe herself was a Levantine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_%28mythology%29
Who gives a shit ? We know one thing: the Greeks of today are culturally not-European.






The New Testament was written in Greek dear! Get serious...
Yes and ? Greek in those days was the English of today. Proves fokol.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Ok first of all, the Euro wasnt designed to benefit Germany, the opposite is true actually. The French demanded we had to sacrifice our beloved currency in order to get their approval for our reunification, because they still feared us after all these years and we didnt benefit until 2008 when the unreliability of many nations became too apparent.

This being said, I am a little disgusted with the Greek attitude in general, you guys would literally blame anyone for your own shortcomings, including the very people you are depending on. And while some Greeks are moe too blame than others very few of you are innocent. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to recognise the direction in which your country was heading, you dont have an industry to speak and even if you had, who would be stupid enough to work in it, if you could become part of one of the biggest, most overpriced and inefficent bureaucracies in history? Your politicians were bribing you with new sponsored jobs and you people were more than happy to take them.
So dont ask for our sympathy or respect, thats something to be earned.

All of these explain only part of the picture, not all of it.

First of all, Greece has all of this inefficient bureaucracy since a very long time ago. Yet it was not a problem until the U.S. of A. housing bubble burst - and certainly not before the Euro was introduced. If you ever bother to read Paul Krugman, you shall see that he notes that Greece had a small surplus before entering the Euro.

The whole structure begun collapsing after the south Europeans could not compete with the productivity of the North and could not devalue their currencies either. Meanwhile, Greece for all of its' deficiencies, could not modernize while collapsing economically (and is still struggling to achieve some basic things)

In any case, the whole of the E.U. became sluggish and underperforming just after the Euro and the constitution issues were brought forth. It became way too large to function, and the biggest problem came from the old members rather than the old ones - It was Ireland and France that blocked the process with failed referendums. There was a decade of inaction that led us here, and a lot of stupidity has burst forth because of this.

Don't expect a rebound anytime soon. The whole Western world is collapsing the moment the rest of the world is trying to Westernize, and we fail because they succeed. It will take time to get to a new balance.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Who gives a shit ? We know one thing: the Greeks of today are culturally not-European.

You have confused the economical issues with the cultural ones.


Yes and ? Greek in those days was the English of today. Proves fokol.

Greek at that time was not exactly the English of today. There was no printing press or internet, and the Western Roman empire was speaking Latin.

[The Lawspeaker]

You have confused the economical issues with the cultural ones.
Corruption is a cultural issue. Lack of care also one.

Greek at that time was not exactly the English of today. There was no printing press or internet, and the Western Roman empire was speaking Latin.[/QUOTE]
Wrong. The language was used as the international language of commerce and philosophy. Most Roman Emperors before that also speak Greek.

[Anusiya]

Corruption is a cultural issue. Lack of care also one.


nigga please
http://pic.epicfail.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/the-fail-train.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

--
You don't even know "your own" history. Tsk tsk.

[Anusiya]

You don't even know "your own" history. Tsk tsk.

Roman history is not "my" history. In fact it's mostly yours. By the way is that a Dutch train? What is it's name...the... "Ffflying"... Dutchman?
:lol00002::lol00002::lol00002:

[The Lawspeaker]

Roman history is not "my" history.
It ought to be. The Romans occupied you lot.. whereas my ancestors.. were allies of the Romans until the Romans fucked things up and turned the Batavians against them.

[Graus]

Its a cultural issue and not the only one you guys got, you should read "the misfortune of being greek" by Nikos Dimou

[Queen B]

Who gives a shit ? We know one thing: the Greeks of today are culturally not-European.
:picard2::picard2::picard2:

[kabeiros]

They can't be the same race as the Ancient Greeks, mate. I don't buy that at all. And if they are then they are the prime example of dysgenics. Said the true example of dysgenics, the handicapped. You are such a joke...

[The Lawspeaker]

Said the true example of dysgenics, the handicapped. You are such a joke...

Such a desperate attempt. Untermensch.

[kabeiros]

Such a desperate attempt. Untermensch. Truth hurts, I know...

[The Lawspeaker]

Truth hurts, I know...

If you can only get personal then it shows your own loss and it shows to be just another Levantine Untermensch. It's a shame that the Turks did not get more of you back in the good old days.

[kabeiros]

You called the whole Greek nation dysgenic and you want me not to get personal? Are you also retarded except from handicapped?

[Anusiya]

If you can only get personal then it shows your own loss and it shows to be just another Levantine Untermensch. It's a shame that the Turks did not get more of you back in the good old days.

*Sigh* If you blame us for pretending to be ancient Greeks, you should see how ridiculous you might look with the big hat and the long clappy shoes. :ranger:

Please remind me, how did you fight off the Germans? On...bicycles? :D

[Grizzly]

You called the whole Greek nation dysgenic and you want me not to get personal? Are you also retarded except from handicapped?

Don't be a dick, there's no need to get personal. It's not his fault your country is dysfunctional and a shitthole.

[Queen B]

If you can only get personal then it shows your own loss and it shows to be just another Levantine Untermensch. It's a shame that the Turks did not get more of you back in the good old days.

Tuan, YOU are insulting all Greeks all the time.

Then, someone -personally- insults you and you insult all Greeks again.

Using our country's status to attack us, is as pathetic as using your status to attack you (and even more, cause we are NOT our government)

[dralos]

Tuan, YOU are insulting all Greeks all the time.

Then, someone -personally- insults you and you insult all Greeks again.

Using our country's status to attack us, is as pathetic as using your status to attack you (and even more, cause we are NOT our government)
this is called karma,many albanians have suffered from greeks who used the status of their country to denounce them when trying to earn some money.

[Xenomorph]

You would be penniless then because I think that we and the Germans would take back all the money.. with interest and then you can see the real size of your economy.. a bit like Rwanda. :thumb001:

Greece would at least have its tourism industry intact. No one goes to Rwanda.


Good point. :thumb001::D But I was more referring to Ancient Greece to which the modern Greek can't be related.. it just can't be.

Yes they are. Ancient Greek democracies were notoriously unstable, dominated by strongmen and constantly cycling through different governmental systems, and Greek politicians at the time were reported to be incredibly corrupt. Towards the end of its independence, Greek city states were constantly going to Rome as an arbiter since they couldn't get their own house in order.


Why don't Greeks return to their former currency for domestic market while using Euros for trading and external needs? Like running a parallel currency system, won't be the first nation which did it and in these times it certainly won't be the last one.

This idea is too sensible. It will never be adopted.

[Absinthe]

I think greeks are such good cons they're hustling the west right now. Already making them feel bad for a debt forgiveness or another 500billion loan to start fresh.
Even if greece is booted out, immidialty they will stiff europe for that money and US will step in for a quick big loan.
Greeks are good:D
You make a living out of playing Poker and you keep accusing a whole nation of being cons?

Pah-lease, man :D Show some mercy :P