R1b - British And Bashkirs Common Ancestor?

[Learning_Genetics]

In the old days I used to think that it was not possible for a Turkic people to have any relation to the British. Yet I saw that both British people and Bashkir Turkics in the Russian Federation share R1b.

Even though the Bashkir variety of R1b is different form that of the British one (Bashkir is eastern, British is Western), are they still from the same source?

Does this mean that British people and Bashkirs have a common ancestor at some point?

How can two such different peoples have this common link?

Does R1b mean common ancestor at some point, or is it not so simple?

[Learning_Genetics]

Please help me to understand!

[Sikeliot]

R1b would have come into Europe with one of the very earliest waves of migration into Europe, and would have probably come from West-Central Asia like most European haplogroups, but due to isolation from one another for a long period of time, genes would have diverged between the two regions so that although haplogroups may have originally had a common source, today the people are very different (and have in turn been influenced by others).

[Learning_Genetics]

R1b would have come into Europe with one of the very earliest waves of migration into Europe, and would have probably come from West-Central Asia like most European haplogroups, but due to isolation from one another for a long period of time, genes would have diverged between the two regions so that although haplogroups may have originally had a common source, today the people are very different (and have in turn been influenced by others).

Understood. Thank you for explaining. This means though that the British and Bashkir peoples do have an extreme distant common ancestor?

[Sikeliot]

Understood. Thank you for explaining. This means though that the British and Bashkir peoples do have an extreme distant common ancestor?

I guess you could look at it that way. But realistically it's more likely to look at it that the ancestors of those who carry R1b, like most European haplogroups, migrated into Europe from the east many many years ago.

[Learning_Genetics]

I guess you could look at it that way. But realistically it's more likely to look at it that the ancestors of those who carry R1b, like most European haplogroups, migrated into Europe from the east many many years ago.

Even still the paternal ancestry is common. Y-DNA is only from father to son. This means that at some point the Western Europeans and carriers of Asian R1b must have a common father.

It seems though that as you said they changed and had different influences. They mixed with other peoples and developed their own cultures.

This seems like my understanding is too simple. I do not think it is possible Western Europeans and a Turkic people can have the same ancestor!

[Han Cholo]

Even still the paternal ancestry is common. Y-DNA is only from father to son. This means that at some point the Western Europeans and carriers of Asian R1b must have a common father.

It seems though that as you said they changed and had different influences. They mixed with other peoples and developed their own cultures.

This seems like my understanding is too simple. I do not think it is possible Western Europeans and a Turkic people can have the same ancestor!

These people were not exactly always completely Turkic though. Their source of R1b probably comes from pre-Turkic caucasoids living in the Western Steppes (ancient Iranians)

[Learning_Genetics]

These people were not exactly always completely Turkic though. Their source of R1b probably comes from pre-Turkic caucasoids living in the Western Steppes (ancient Iranians)

I see. So they were Turkified, either by force or voluntarily through inter-marriage and assimilation later?

Even still, R1a would be what I would associate with Iranian people, not R1b.

[Azalea]

These people were not exactly always completely Turkic though. Their source of R1b probably comes from pre-Turkic caucasoids living in the Western Steppes (ancient Iranians)

So now not only R1a but R1b is also Iranic? :rolleyes:

[Han Cholo]

So now not only R1a but R1b is also Iranic? :rolleyes:

Ok, so are you suggesting it's Mongolian then or from the Altay?

[Azalea]

I see. So they were Turkified, either by force or voluntarily through inter-marriage and assimilation later?

Even still, R1a would be what I would associate with Iranian people, not R1b.

Most Bashkirs belong to the eastern variant of R1b. This haplogroup is almost exclusively Turkic when looking at the distribution. While I am not claiming that the first Turkic speakers were R1b, I am confident enough to say that it's not Iranic for sure.

[Azalea]

Ok, so are you suggesting it's Mongolian then or from the Altay?

No.

And Bashkirs are not Mongolic nor Mongolian.

[Han Cholo]

Most Bashkirs belong to the eastern variant of R1b. This haplogroup is almost exclusively Turkic when looking at the distribution. While I am not claiming that the first Turkic speakers were R1b, I am confident enough to say that it's not Iranic for sure.

What languages were spoken in the Bashkir and Volga vicinity, southern Urals before Turkification?

[Azalea]

What languages were spoken in the Bashkir and Volga vicinity, southern Urals before Turkification?

Uralic languages, Iranic languages and probably more.

[Learning_Genetics]

So now not only R1a but R1b is also Iranic?


I agree, there is no proof that it is Iranic. However with R1a we can be quite certain it is.


Most Bashkirs belong to the eastern variant of R1b. This haplogroup is almost exclusively Turkic when looking at the distribution. While I am not claiming that the first Turkic speakers were R1b, I am confident enough to say that it's not Iranic for sure.


Does the eastern variant have any relation to the R1b of Western Europe, do they have a common ancestor?

So some Turks and Western Europeans have a common ancestor potentially?

[Azalea]

Yeah, almost the entire world shares a potential common ancestor when you go far enough. Why does this surprise you this much?

I am a Turk and my dad's Y-DNA is also R1b. :)

[Sophie]

How can you guys assign ethnic groups to a haplogroup? Its a bit pretentious don't you think?

[Learning_Genetics]

Yeah, almost the entire world shares a potential common ancestor when you go far enough. Why does this surprise you this much?

I am a Turk and my dad's Y-DNA is also R1b.

It is surprising because Turkic peoples and Western Europeans are not two you will associate together.


How can you guys assign ethnic groups to a haplogroup? Its a bit pretentious don't you think?

It is not pretentious and ethnic groups are not being assigned. The fact is that if two people have R1b and they are from different ethnic groups, does it not mean both had at some point a common paternal ancestor even if it was thousands of years ago?

If you see someone with a completely different appearance to you but then know at some point you had a common ancestor, how will you feel?

[Demhat]

Haplogroup R1b* originated to some point in Western Asia. During Neolthic it was spread around the world. Into Central Asia it was brought by Tocharians.

The root of all R1b subclades, R-M343* is only found among Kurds in significant number, A study on Kurds living in Kazakhstan which were deported there by Stalin from Northwest Iran/Caucasus/East Anatolia, found 13% of this very rare Haplogroup.


R1b* (that is R1b with no subsequent distinguishing SNP mutations) is extremely rare. The only population yet recorded with a definite significant proportion of R1b* are the Kurds of southeastern Kazakhstan with 13%

Myres, Natalie (2010), "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene effect in Central and Western Europe", European Journal of Human Genetics 19


Most scientists believe R1b* originates somewhere between Southeast Anatolia and West Iran.

[Learning_Genetics]

But regardless, all R1b people are related even if it was thousands of years ago?

[Sophie]

But regardless, all R1b people are related even if it was thousands of years ago?

Yes but it could just be one ancestor out of millions and more importantly it's many many thousands of years ago. Long before ethnic groups had ever formed.

[Demhat]

But regardless, all R1b people are related even if it was thousands of years ago?

in some way Yes.

[Learning_Genetics]

Yes but it could just be one ancestor out of millions and more importantly it's many many thousands of years ago. Long before ethnic groups had ever formed.

in some way Yes.

Only one ancestor yes, but if you go back far enough along your paternal line you will come to a point where both R1b's find a common paternal ancestor. It was a time before ethnic groups were formulated but it is just a fascinating thought.

[Demhat]

Only one ancestor yes, but if you go back far enough along your paternal line you will come to a point where both R1b's find a common paternal ancestor. It was a time before ethnic groups were formulated but it is just a fascinating thought.


The thing is Haplogroups are rather more interesting in Population genetics than individual.

If your Population has significant percentage of a Haplogroup and you as an individual of this population belong to this Haplogroup too, than you can be sure that this Haplogroup plays a good role in your autosomal DNA and ethnogenesis.

Yet if you belong to a Haplogroup which is rather rare among your people. Than it is more likely that this Haplogroup plays no big role for you too and is just a trace of one of your ancestors.

Frequent among your People = important for you too (you can assume that more than just one of your ancestors belonged to this Haplogroup)


not frequent among your People = not so important for you either (Probably just a trace that only one or two of your ancestors belong to this Haplogroup).

[Learning_Genetics]

Yes, but it is important to remember that for many people the ethnicity is not decided by genetics but by paternal origin.

You inherit your father's ethnic group.

[Demhat]

Note there are some cases were even though your Haplogroup is very frequent among your people still it didnt played that big role. This can be the case during endogamy or disasters when People belonging to one Haplogroup have less offspring. The so called "Bottleneck effect"

[Learning_Genetics]

Note there are some cases were even though your Haplogroup is very frequent among your people still it didnt played that big role. This can be the case during endogamy or disasters when People belonging to one Haplogroup have less offspring. The so called "Bottleneck effect"

How can it have less effect if the majority of a people belong to such a haplogroup?

[Azalea]

It is surprising because Turkic peoples and Western Europeans are not two you will associate together.



It is not pretentious and ethnic groups are not being assigned. The fact is that if two people have R1b and they are from different ethnic groups, does it not mean both had at some point a common paternal ancestor even if it was thousands of years ago?

If you see someone with a completely different appearance to you but then know at some point you had a common ancestor, how will you feel?

You are taking haplogroups waaaay to serious but most of all; you should not link haplogroups to phenotypes. These men are also R1b.

http://img07.beijing2008.cn/20080807/Img214513416.jpg

How about that?

[Learning_Genetics]

You are taking haplogroups waaaay to serious but most of all; you should not link haplogroups to phenotypes. These men are also R1b.


I see. Phenotype is something different, it is not decided by haplogroup alone but by all the genes together.

Still, nothing changes the fact that they and some Western Europeans have a common origin but I will not say this means anything today. However will we deny a common paternal ancestor just because phenotype is like night and day?

The purpose of this thread is not so much to try to link groups. It is only trying to know if haplogroups among diverse peoples can indicate a common paternal origin.

[only1]

You need to ask the same about the british and the Hausa from west africa, both have high R1B.

That's why I've always doubted the accuracy of DNA tests (for the long run at least).

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6053/5893672580_a9a81bc693_z.jpg

VS

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/photo/jeremy-clarkson-named-man-british-men-admire-most-in-new-poll-$15909$300.jpg

[Insuperable]

You need to ask the same about the british and the Hausa from west africa, both have high R1B.

That's why I've always doubted the accuracy of DNA tests (for the long run at least).

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6053/5893672580_a9a81bc693_z.jpg

VS

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/photo/jeremy-clarkson-named-man-british-men-admire-most-in-new-poll-$15909$300.jpg

:picard1:

[Learning_Genetics]

So those two guys do not have a paternal common ancestor?

[Insuperable]

So those two guys do not have a paternal common ancestor?

ancestors where one of them probably diluted their genes, yes

We all have common ancestors and because some carry certain markers (haplogroups ) means nothing. What is more important is aDNA.
Slavs are rich in R1a and so are Indians, Germanics are rich in R1b and so do Pakistanis have some too, Africans as you have seen and so do some Turkic tribes but are still world apart in almost every aspect.

[Learning_Genetics]

We all have common ancestors and because some carry certain markers (haplogroups ) means nothing. What is more important is aDNA.
Slavs are rich in R1a and so are Indians, Germanics are rich in R1b and so do Pakistanis have some too, Africans as you have seen and so do some Turkic tribes but are still world apart in almost every aspect.

That is true. However is it not a mind shaking thought that you could have a common paternal ancestor with Indians even if you are so different these days?

If R1b led to so many different peoples, then I wonder who the original carriers of R1b were?

[Pallantides]

The common R1b linages in Bashkirs are

R1b1a1 (R-M73)
R1b1a2 (R-M269)
R1b1a2a1a1b3 (R-U152)

[Learning_Genetics]

R1b1a1 (R-M73)
R1b1a2 (R-M269)
R1b1a2a1a1b3 (R-U152)

Do all of these descend from one person?

[Proto-Shaman]

These people were not exactly always completely Turkic though. Their source of R1b probably comes from pre-Turkic caucasoids living in the Western Steppes (ancient Iranians)

Even still, R1a would be what I would associate with Iranian people, not R1b.
Both seems to be very unlikely...

R1a highlight:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5404
http://s42.radikal.ru/i096/0907/67/4391f4ec9283.jpg
Turkic peoples have a higher rate of R1a. Don't get confused with Tajiks, they are of half Turkic origin. Unfortunately the high rate of R1a in Shors, Teleuts, Altaians and Khakas are even not marked on this map.

R1b highlight:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=715&pictureid=5405


Ok, so are you suggesting it's Mongolian then or from the Altay?
This would be a better explanation:

Some historians and archaeologists, taking into consideration ... the ... historical report and the testimony of archaeology and anthropology, placed the genesis of Turkic culture in the areas of the Yenisey river and of the Sayan and Tannu-ola ranges. This region had been the home of Eurepeoid races who produced the Afanasiev and Andronov cultures.

Emel Esin, A history of pre-Islamic and early-Islamic Turkic culture,
Vol. 1 of Handbook of Turkic culture, 1980, p.9 (http://books.google.de/books?id=ltVpAAAAMAAJ)

PS: *Note that Russian Academy shoveled over hundreds of Andronov kurgans and thousands of burials, but did not get around to do a single DNA test in support of the "Indo-Iranian" speculations. Neither did the testing the "Indo-Iranian" proponents in the West, where DNA testing is as routine as a urine test. As long as the language of the populations is inferred from the silent shreds, the opposing facts are ignored, and selected anecdotal examples serve a proofs, the "Indo-Iranians" propaganda has a chance.

[LecomtsevAlexander]

do not assume that the Bashkirs homogeneous people in it more than 30 five different ancient peoples. R1b are only the most ancient of aboriginal peoples. of the population of aboriginal ancient occur Komi - they yazvintsy 50% R1b . y of aboriginal Bashkirs have epic Ural Batyr which is similar to the Sumerian epic, "The Legend of Gulgameshe" . Bashkirs as that associated Huritami enemies Sumerians. as well as the name of the Ural Mountains, also brought Bashkirs. the name of the Urals is very similar to the name of Urartu. like the Bashkirs did not have the same origin with the Armenians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihAWXFkCwHU