Survey Shows Balkans Muslims Remain Secular

[iNird]

According to the survey less than half of the Muslims surveyed in the Balkans see religion as central to their lives - and only 15 per cent of Albanian Muslims consider it as such.

The survey, which involved more than 38,000 face-to-face interviews in over 80 languages, finds that while there is broad agreement on the core tenets of Islam, Muslims across the 39 countries and territories surveyed differ significantly in their levels of religious commitment, openness to multiple interpretations of their faith and acceptance of various sects and movements.

Muslims in Eastern Europe also report lower levels of religious practice than Muslims in other regions. They also tend to be less observant than their counterparts in other regions when it comes to mosque attendance.

Only three in ten Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina visit their local mosque once a week or more, for example.

Despite lower levels of religious commitment by some measures, the majority of Muslims in the region subscribe to core tenets of Islam, and many also report that they observe such fasts as Ramadan as well as obligations to give alms to the poor.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/balkans-muslims-more-secular-than-their-peers

[iNird]

Some results of the questions asked in the survey:

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_qp5qPSEgGQpH86qjL0Eqw3Yd.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=ZfLsuvwdGN)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_HX4Nu6oXKA6Hu8MGgwnssfTt0.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=3ltgp88M2)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_FJ7SaQVXaASaTdYHo2EEI2krY.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=WlU5YbbvTW)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_hx4hbCycWOiRJoUzW6DpEAV1.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=EjS2X8Dx7n)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_uTUmIPc23VDa9EVmlcyhN8Cc1.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=Q6WzNfQDO)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_7d2HXKLs6fWAbX9O0nBKkUaYZ.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=qidJDNFMFx)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_f8pFDiO1Bb19Errs2hO8ayy5H.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=n3iNMO5EIw)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_nmYjNDoXtDcZoEMM1CRpvpC6W.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=pXMEWCdTto)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_re8CLu5CSOMEaM7Dmwuj007RR.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=MA59Ljiqj)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_4DevkOj507cuRPhYQWAA5IPSI.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=1LDiFK97Sb)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_EexH3d8R7RrvZfCAqS0FENdxe.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=l5JM2YvCM)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_mHNjhtZZ52ty6E1d1Y8l7bNe.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=74QCPpxBPW)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_5YzuV3nVDvLfsq4WVWzF0VdWC.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=KAVjc8RK6)

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/thumb_C2DMGM6fgIEwDJjcQN0DlY9ew.jpg (http://uploadpic.org/v.php?img=YtzO3KfNrV)

http://www.pewforum.org/Muslim/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity.aspx

[poiuytrewq0987]

Why do Albanian women walk everywhere in a burqa then? :confused:

[iNird]

Why do Albanian women walk everywhere in a burqa then? :confused:

And the trolling begins!

:bored:

[poiuytrewq0987]

And the trolling begins!

:bored:

Have you ever visited Skopje?

[Midori]

And the trolling begins!

:bored:

Actually it's true, he's not trolling.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well it's an inquiry by Pew which means about as multiculti-liberal as it gets.

[iNird]

Well the Burqa is a recent phenomenon and is worn by a minority.

[Arbërori]

Why do Albanian women walk everywhere in a burqa then? :confused:

LOL @ those alien dykes... Predominant majority of young Albanian women don't & you know that.:thumb001:

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Covered%20Woman%20Macedonia.jpg
An Albanian woman Tetovo, Macedonia

I never once saw one of those in Kosovo, not even in villages. As soon as I crossed the border into Macedonia, I felt like I had been whisked through a hole in the dimension from southeastern Europe to somewhere in Arabia.

Hijabs aren't strictly Islamic. There are Muslim countries all over the world where few women wear them. It's a cultural import from the Arab world. There is nothing wrong with wearing a hijab by choice (they are required by law in Iran), and it would be wrong to assume a woman or her family are Islamist extremists based on their head gear, but I was still startled to see so many in Macedonia. Albanian women do not traditionally wear them. It was obvious that soft-imperial Arab “missionaries” from the Gulf are having a much more profound effect on the ground in Macedonia than in Kosovo.

Shpetim Mahmudi teaches at the University of Tetovo and belongs to the Bektashi order of Sufi mystics. The Bektashis are part of a distinct branch of Shia Islam, and many self-identify as the most liberal on Earth. These are the last people in the Islamic world who will join any kind of jihad. They drink alcohol, for instance, and they are not obligated to pray five times every day in a mosque. Bektashi women don't wear oppressive clothing, and their feelings of openness toward people of other faiths is genuine. Naturally they are detested by Wahhabis and other radical Sunnis as much as they would be if they were pagans or Jews.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/07/the-bin-ladens-1.php

[Midori]

I never once saw one of those in Kosovo, not even in villages. As soon as I crossed the border into Macedonia, I felt like I had been whisked through a hole in the dimension from southeastern Europe to somewhere in Arabia.


True. I saw very few women dressed like that in Kosovo. Kinda strange, considering the majority of their kin in Macedonia cover themselves.

[iNird]

http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Covered%20Woman%20Macedonia.jpg
An Albanian woman Tetovo, Macedonia

I never once saw one of those in Kosovo, not even in villages. As soon as I crossed the border into Macedonia, I felt like I had been whisked through a hole in the dimension from southeastern Europe to somewhere in Arabia.

Hijabs aren't strictly Islamic. There are Muslim countries all over the world where few women wear them. It's a cultural import from the Arab world. There is nothing wrong with wearing a hijab by choice (they are required by law in Iran), and it would be wrong to assume a woman or her family are Islamist extremists based on their head gear, but I was still startled to see so many in Macedonia. Albanian women do not traditionally wear them. It was obvious that soft-imperial Arab “missionaries” from the Gulf are having a much more profound effect on the ground in Macedonia than in Kosovo.

Shpetim Mahmudi teaches at the University of Tetovo and belongs to the Bektashi order of Sufi mystics. The Bektashis are part of a distinct branch of Shia Islam, and many self-identify as the most liberal on Earth. These are the last people in the Islamic world who will join any kind of jihad. They drink alcohol, for instance, and they are not obligated to pray five times every day in a mosque. Bektashi women don't wear oppressive clothing, and their feelings of openness toward people of other faiths is genuine. Naturally they are detested by Wahhabis and other radical Sunnis as much as they would be if they were pagans or Jews.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/07/the-bin-ladens-1.php

I read this article a while ago but it is a bit poorly written because he starts off comparing an older lady wearing an all black outfit to an young crowd of school girls. Secondly his observations are based in one area in Tetova where some fundamentalism has gained ground.

To make conclusions based on small samples isn't very logical. It would be like me saying Albanians are a bunch of guido clubbers based on these pics:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1032679#post1032679

:coffee:

[safinator]

What is Zakat?

[Arbërori]

Definitely funded by 3rd party groups a.k.a Wahhabis. My grandma for ex. never wore a burqa or whatever this is called, she even dyes her hair.:thumb001:

As INird said, it's mostly the elder ladies that would wear white head scarves, lol.


[CENTER] The Bektashis are part of a distinct branch of Shia Islam, and many self-identify as the most liberal on Earth. These are the last people in the Islamic world who will join any kind of jihad. They drink alcohol, for instance, and they are not obligated to pray five times every day in a mosque. Bektashi women don't wear oppressive clothing, and their feelings of openness toward people of other faiths is genuine. Naturally they are detested by Wahhabis and other radical Sunnis as much as they would be if they were pagans or Jews.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/07/the-bin-ladens-1.php

If that's how most Bektashi's are, then that counts for the Albanian Sunnis aswell. I know that my paternal grandfather (God rest his soul) would call a Macedonian Muslim family he knew either ''Buddhist'' or ''Pagan'', since they were funded by the Wahhabis & the men would grow out bears (I don't know why the connection though). I know that in Kosovo for ex., Wahhabi & Radical Muslims were nto allowed to help, Ramush Haradinaj for ex.(former leader of the KLA) wrote in his book about a case where some Wahhabis came to a local village & started destroying the Muslim & even Christian Albanian graves of the same families & were chased off & beaten.:D

[poiuytrewq0987]

Well that's not a burqa for one. Secondly you can not assume that's what most Albanian women wear because you are making the assumption the ones that do not wear a headscarf are Macedonian and/or Christian and the ones that wear them are Albanian, thus, leading to your conclusion that most Albanian wear headscarves. But to be fair, areas like Skopje tend to be a bit more religious from my personal belief. In my region, you will hardly find women with headscarves aside from the older ladies in their 60s.

They're the "stereotypical" Macedonian Albanian women if you get the drift. They are stereotyped as such because they go everywhere in burqas in Skopje. I see a lot of them when I ride buses to the city and back (one of my relatives live in Cento and it is on the way to an Albanian village east of the area and you can see a mosque in the skyline...). However, I am not saying that ALL Albanian women are like them. The young, and the unmarried dress like normal Western women but I suspect that changes when they get married.

Some more examples:

http://www.albforcan.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/surraj-hasipi.jpg

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/jevtic/016_files/woman.jpg

[iNird]

What is Zakat?

Basically giving a % of your salary to the poor. I guess it would be equivalent to charity.

[iNird]

They're the "stereotypical" Macedonian Albanian women if you get the drift. They are stereotyped as such because they go everywhere in burqas in Skopje. I see a lot of them when I ride buses to the city and back (one of my relatives live in Cento and it is on the way to an Albanian village east of the area and you can see a mosque in the skyline...). However, I am not saying that ALL Albanian women are like them. The young, and the unmarried dress like normal Western women but I suspect that changes when they get married.

Some more example:

http://www.albforcan.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/surraj-hasipi.jpg

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/jevtic/016_files/woman.jpg

The first pic of the woman you posted was labelled as an extremist. She was later released but if they arrested a woman that didn't wear that type of clothing that charge would look even more ridiculous than it originally was. Second women isn't from Macedonia (notice the license plates.)

Anyways there are some decent statistics posted in the thread and you want to make conclusions based off of pictures and limited observations. Ok.

Finally what is most illogical of all is you are trying to portray a group of people based off a small minority that have most likely financed by external parties. Tsk tsk.

:coffee:

[The Lawspeaker]

Basically giving a % of your salary to the poor. I guess it would be equivalent to charity.

We have a more efficient version of that:

http://www.nrc.nl/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/envelop-586x329.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

The first pic of the woman you posted was labelled as an extremist. She was later released but if they arrested a woman that didn't wear that type of clothing that charge would look ridiculous. Second women isn't from Macedonia (notice the license plates.)

Anyways there are some decent statistics posted in the thread and you want to make conclusions based off of pictures and limited observations. Ok.

I'm just basing my observation from real, live experiences in Macedonia not from some statistics on the internet. :)

[Arbërori]

Random ex. of two Albanian Shkupi natives:
http://i49.tinypic.com/aoutfk.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

Random ex. of two Albanian Shkupi natives:
http://i49.tinypic.com/aout.jpg

I'm sure Albanians in Albania are more liberal about religion but I don't think the same can be said of Albanians in Macedonia. It's like the medieval age with the millet system still practiced there.

[iNird]

I'm just basing my observation from real, live experiences in Macedonia not from some statistics on the internet. :)

While your observations have some merit they are limited and biased with a hint of trolling.

[poiuytrewq0987]

While your observations have some merit they are limited and biased with a hint of trolling.

Uhm, I guess it's convenient to try and discredit me as a troll when you:

1. deny that Albanian women still wear the burqa in Macedonia by a significant percentage (I'm sure this is a must amongst married Albanian women)

2. Interreligious marriages are still a taboo in Macedonia

3. Mosques are being erected on a daily basis in some sort of religious war in Macedonia (I know you are going to attribute this to Albanism, or whatever, but it's not like that at all)

[Arbërori]

I'm sure Albanians in Albania are more liberal about religion but I don't think the same can be said of Albanians in Macedonia. It's like the medieval age with the millet system still practiced there.

Millet also applied to Christian & Jewish laws, but I get what you mean.
The majority of young people are liberal, educated & open-minded, while
their families may & would live a more traditional lifestyle, like it is also with
rural Bulgarians... I remember driving through this Macedonian village & I
swear, if I didn't hear them talk Bulgarian or notice that the women are not
wearing white headscarves, I would've thought I was in an Albanian one.:thumb001:

[Arbërori]

Uhm, I guess it's convenient to try and discredit me as a troll when you:

1. deny that Albanian women still wear the burqa in Macedonia by a significant percentage (I'm sure this is a must amongst married Albanian women)

2. Interreligious marriages are still a taboo in Macedonia

3. Mosques are being erected on a daily basis in some sort of religious war in Macedonia (I know you are going to attribute this to Albanism, or whatever, but it's not like that at all)

My mother is married & my dad never forced her to wear a burqalurka
or whatever that is & infact predominant majority of women in my family
don't, but some Albanian women do, yes.

Most Albanians there are Muslim, so I'm gload there are no interreligious
marriages & it should be kept that way.:thumb001: But... There is also a
Catholic & Orthodox minority, some which are assimilated & some which
very much hold on to ethnic marriage traditions.

And infact you are wrong, the spiritual yadda yadda, ofcourse, but Bulgarians
also erected a cross on top a predominately Albanian populated area, big whoop?

Now which Jew is better ,the one that got stamped or the camel rider?:rolleyes:

[iNird]

Uhm, I guess it's convenient to try and discredit me as a troll when you:

1. deny that Albanian women still wear the burqa in Macedonia by a significant percentage (I'm sure this is a must amongst married Albanian women)

2. Interreligious marriages are still a taboo in Macedonia

3. Mosques are being erected on a daily basis in some sort of religious war in Macedonia (I know you are going to attribute this to Albanism, or whatever, but it's not like that at all)

1. Proof besides a few pics?

2. Albanian Muslim and an Albanian Christian is perfectly acceptable by most i.e. Shpat Kasapi (Albanian singer from FYROM) engaged/married to Aferdita Dreshaj (Miss Albania in 2007 Catholic).

Interethnic marriages is a taboo, yes.

But statistics shown by the Macedonian government that interethnic (or if you want to call it interreligious) marriages are pretty uncommon. Most groups marry within their own:

http://uploadpic.org/storage/2011/DIm4FSFUcNdSGgpLXyLH1TTI.jpg

3. This is true to some degree but this is more of a result of external forces financing such projects. But....

http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/?ItemID=A0...AA82A63C63251E

In Macedonia 1,842 churches and 580 mosques.

Meaning Mosques make up under 24% of the religious buildings. Considering over 30% of the population identifies as "Muslim", well I wouldn't call this much of a religious war, and if it is, you are winning if it means having more Churches/Mosques wins relative to population.

[Methmatician]

We have a more efficient version of that:

http://www.nrc.nl/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/envelop-586x329.jpg

Social security?

[poiuytrewq0987]

1. Proof besides a few pics?

I wasn't posting the pictures as proof but rather use them as examples of what Albanian Muslim women usually dress like to show off their religion.


2. Albanian Muslim and an Albanian Christian is perfectly acceptable by most i.e. Shpat Kasapi (Albanian singer from FYROM) engaged/married to Aferdita Dreshaj (Miss Albania in 2007 Catholic).

Interethnic marriages is a taboo, yes.

I disagree. There have been occurrences where Macedonian Christians went over to Albania married Albanian Christians. It's religion that mostly matters here especially among the commoners.


But statistics shown by the Macedonian government that interethnic (or if you want to call it interreligious) marriages are pretty uncommon. Most groups marry within their own:

http://uploadpiorg/storage/2011/DIm4FSFUcNdSGgpLXyLH1TTI.jpg

Because 99.9% of the time Albanians are Muslim and Macedonians are Christian and thus no interethnic marriages occur. This is a different story in Albania where Albanian Christians willingly marry Macedonian Christians.


3. This is true to some degree but this is more of a result of external forces financing such projects. But....

http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/?ItemID=A0...AA82A63C63251E

In Macedonia 1,842 churches and 580 mosques.

Meaning Mosques make up under 24% of the religious buildings. Considering over 30% of the population identifies as "Muslim", well I wouldn't call this much of a religious war, and if it is, you are winning if it means having more Churches/Mosques wins relative to population.

580 too many. Macedonia was once known as the Jerusalem of Europe for its numerous churches just before most of them were razed by Turks and many mosques built on the ruins of churches. I would tear down 480 mosques and limit only 100 mosques for the country's Muslim citizens.

[iNird]

I wasn't posting the pictures as proof but rather use them as examples of what Albanian Muslim women usually dress like to show off their religion.


That's not usual dress.


I disagree. There have been occurrences where Macedonian Christians went over to Albania married Albanian Christians. It's religion that mostly matters here especially among the commoners.


Those marriages occur in low frequency. Religion is important to some degree but ethnicity matters more, hence, why Albanians from Macedonia would marry with Albanian Christians but not with Macedonian Christians.


Because 99.9% of the time Albanians are Muslim and Macedonians are Christian and thus no interethnic marriages occur. This is a different story in Albania where Albanian Christians willingly marry Macedonian Christians.


They don't willingly marry. Some poor peasant Orthodox girl from Albania might marry a Macedonian Orthodox but these cases are more of the exception than the norm.


580 too many. Macedonia was once known as the Jerusalem of Europe for its numerous churches just before most of them were razed by Turks and many mosques built on the ruins of churches. I would tear down 480 mosques and limit only 100 mosques for the country's Muslim citizens.


Ok

[The Lawspeaker]

Social security?

Taxes. Belastingdienst means Tax Services. The blue envelope is one send to taxpayers with the notice to pay their taxes.

[Methmatician]

Taxes. Belastingdienst means Tax Services. The blue envelope is one send to taxpayers with the notice to pay their taxes.

You still have tax in Islamic countries.

[el22]

Taxes. Belastingdienst means Tax Services. The blue envelope is one send to taxpayers with the notice to pay their taxes.

That wouldn't work in Albania. What if people refuse to pay, what are you gone do? You can't imprison 2/3 of population.

[Arbërori]

I wasn't posting the pictures as proof but rather use them as examples of what Albanian Muslim women usually dress like to show off their religion.



I disagree. There have been occurrences where Macedonian Christians went over to Albania married Albanian Christians. It's religion that mostly matters here especially among the commoners.



Because 99.9% of the time Albanians are Muslim and Macedonians are Christian and thus no interethnic marriages occur. This is a different story in Albania where Albanian Christians willingly marry Macedonian Christians.



580 too many. Macedonia was once known as the Jerusalem of Europe for its numerous churches just before most of them were razed by Turks and many mosques built on the ruins of churches. I would tear down 480 mosques and limit only 100 mosques for the country's Muslim citizens.

So now it's not about ''Albanism'' or Islam anymore, but showing off? :thumb001:

I would defy that, I have two Christian Catholics & one Christian Orthodox Albanians married in my family. There might've been more of an emphasis on religion, but now it's mostly about ethnicity, some families might hold on to religion, but most don't & would much rather prefer & it's the ''unwritten law'' to marry an Albanian before a Slav or any other.

Interreligious marriages have been frequent in Albania also due to regional influences & rules, where the sons would be raised as Muslims & daughters as Christians and ofcourse State-declared atheism. It's not unusual to find Christians with Muslim surnames & Muslims with Christian ones and vice versa.

Those women were pimped & are usually the bottom stock of the village, either whores or unsuitable for marriage, still won't change demographics at all. Most are married to elder men & serve as house slaves unfortunately, but well life is a bitch.:D

Infact, most Christian Albanians I know in Albania wouldn't even think of marrying a non-Albanian Christian, especially the ones in the South, who despite being Orthodox, hate the Greeks & Bulgarians in denial.

Who cares, stop being butthurt, it happened, big deal. One Church more or less doesn't make you any more or less of a Christian, or am I wrong? :cool:

[Arbërori]

I disagree. There have been occurrences where Macedonian Christians went over to Albania married Albanian Christians. It's religion that mostly matters here especially among the commoners.


Another proof that you people are going extinct. I know of one case in my village & the supposedly ''Albanian'' wife is Roma, but well the fellow is a nice champ & even speaks Albanian.;)

+ I doubt he can even get it on, the girl is 35, while he's like 60 or more.:picard1: