Will Syria's Kurds benefit from the crisis?

[Loki]

Will Syria's Kurds benefit from the crisis? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19197169)

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/62170000/jpg/_62170035_kurdssss.jpg

In any assessment of the potential winners and losers from the political chaos in Syria, the country's Kurdish minority could be among the winners.

The Kurds make up a little over 10% of the population. Long marginalised by the Alawite-dominated government, they are largely concentrated in north-eastern Syria, up towards the Turkish border.

Aaron David Miller, a distinguished scholar at the Woodrow Wilson Center in Washington DC, believes that the Kurds could be one of the main beneficiaries of the demise of the regime of President Bashar al-Assad.

"Syria is coming apart, and there's not much chance it will be reassembled with the kind of centralised authority we saw under the Assads."

For the Syrian Kurds, whom he describes as "part of the largest single ethnic grouping in the region that lacks a state", there is "an opportunity to create more autonomy and respect for Kurdish rights".

"They have the motivation, opportunity, and their Kurdish allies in Iraq and Turkey to encourage them. But what will hold them back is Turkey's determination to prevent a mini-statelet in Syria along with the Kurds own internal divisions," he says.

[Annihilus]

Kids don't look Kurdish to me.

[Onur]

Kurds are Pentagon`s no.1 proxy group in the region. It`s quite expected from them to support kurds by giving "human rights" issues as a pretext.

If human rights would really be an issue, then why USA doesn't support the human rights of Shiite majority in some Wahhabi states like Bahrain?

[Loki]

Kids don't look Kurdish to me.

Our local kebab shop workers don't look anything like them either.

[alanr]

Onur I have never seen anyone that is supposedly "Anti-globalist nationalism, Anti-fascist patriotism" as you claim, yet so biased and holds so many reservations for a people as a group, not even as individuals.

You chose to ignore all the suffering of the Kurdish population in Syria simply because you are afraid of how it will affect Turkey. The fact will remain that the regime in Syria has practiced fascist policies against the Kurds and has indeed abused their human rights.

I have not once come across an individual outside of the Turkish bubble that makes so many claims, yet backs non of it up. You claim that Kurds are a "Proxy" group for the US, yet it is evident that the Kurdish groups in Syria did not take side with either the opposition or the regime. Infact, the Kurds are the only group in Syria that are attempting to secure their own future. The proxy group and the people that work for the US as you like to put it are the firstly the Turks and the SNC. Yes, you Turks have under US instructions engineered the Syrian opposition group. You Turks were used by the US and Europe as a "proxy" group against the Russians (by your own standards). You will never understand politics because you look at it from an emotional point of view and will try to discredit anything Kurds do by attempting to link it to an outside power. Off course your bias media has an effect on you and I suppose the overwhelming majority of the human race are sheep that will follow anything the media tells them and consequently will believe any conspiracy theory that helps them sleep at night by still feeling superior.

Don't attempt to response to me without any non bias evidence that would suggest the Kurds in Syria are "proxy" groups of the US.

[Onur]

What i wrote is the basic truth.

You cannot compare Kurds with the Turkish state policies. We are a 1000 year old legitimate authority here but you kurds are just a minority group in Syria, Iraq, Iran and Turkey. You never had a state of your own and your pseudo-entity in northern Iraq is NOT a state either (as of today). As we all know, Pentagon created your kurdish entity in northern Iraq and they probably wanna create 2nd one in Syria nowadays. I suppose 3rd one in Iran and 4th one in Turkey in the future, we will see about that.

This is all happening because of Pentagon`s policies for the region, nothing else. Otherwise you have no power nor enough intellectual background to create something of your own, let alone a kurdish state. Are you going to deny this?

[Quorra]

Onur I have never seen anyone that is supposedly "Anti-globalist nationalism, Anti-fascist patriotism" as you claim, yet so biased and holds so many reservations for a people as a group, not even as individuals.



Onur's against nationalism when the nation isn't his. I.e. he is not only a nationalist, but a wanna be imperialist.

[Partizan]

@Alan,wait before commenting.If the USA will support a Kurdish state in Syria like she has done in Iraq,your thesis will become invalid.And it's more than possible.


Onur's against nationalism when the nation isn't his. I.e. he is not only a nationalist, but a wanna be imperialist.

He doesn't have a problem with anyone who doesn't have problems with Turks,simple.

[Quorra]

He doesn't have a problem with anyone who doesn't have problems with Turks,simple.

Would he have no problem if his country was to be settled by other peoples en masse?

Are you parroting our leftist propaganda against us?

[alanr]

What i wrote is the basic truth.


By who's account? where is your evidence?


You cannot compare Kurds with the Turkish state policies. We are a 1000 year old legitimate authority here but you kurds are just a minority group in Syria, Iraq, Iran and Turkey.

You are not a 1000 year old legitimate authority whatever that even means. You are what the current Iraqi regime is to the previous one, and what the next Syrian regime will be. The ottomans were an Islamic empire with Turkish roots, they were defeated by the West and instead a pro-Western government under ataturk was born. Since then, Turkey has been a base for American and European armies and to this day hosts military bases and equipment to protect Western interest. The modern Turkey gained some influence and power as a result of being used by the West against the Russians. Stop with the inferiority complex, come back to earth and face the facts.


You never had a state of your own and your pseudo-entity in northern Iraq is NOT a state either (as of today). As we all know, Pentagon created your kurdish entity in northern Iraq and they probably wanna create 2nd one in Syria nowadays. I suppose 3rd one in Iran and 4th one in Turkey in the future, we will see about that.

Oh dear god. Pentagon as you call it didn't create anything. The same treatment that we received was given to the whole of Iraq, infact the no fly zone was awarded to the Shia in the South too, yet, they didn't know what to do with it because they had no oranised political movements as we had. Infact the current Iraqi PM spent many years in Kurdistan under Kurdish protection and if it wasn't for that protection he would have been dead by now.

One look at modern Iraq will show similar situations. Since 2003 Turkey attempted to deny Kurdistan and block any attempts for it to grow in power. Turkey tried to strengthen the Turkmen in Iraq but failed miserably, in 2007 Turkey then moved to the Sunni Arabs in Iraq and created the Iraqia list in an attempt to curb Kurdish power in Iraq. Turkey united the Sunni Arabs and Turkmens but yet again, we Kurds came out on top and after many years of failed attempts Turkey had no choice but accept Kurdistan. It has nothing to do with the US. Kurdish unity in Iraq and Arab fractions was the key to our success.


This is all happening because of Pentagon`s policies for the region, nothing else. Otherwise you have no power nor enough intellectual background to create something of your own, let alone a kurdish state. Are you going to deny this?


Again you display your sheep mentality. How many of your "leaders" are of Kurdish background? Isn't your current finance minister Kurdish? how many Kurds in Erdogens party? Isn't the CHP leader supposedly of Kurdish Zaza origin? now, if they are able to run Turkish affairs to are more than able to run Kurdish affairs.

The current political elite in Iraqi Kurdistan is made up off people that are more than able to run the state and are indeed running it with great success. The Kurdish energy minister Dr. Hewrami is single handily winning an energy war against the entire Iraqi energy ministry. The majority of the Kurdish ministries are run by Kurds that have returned from the west. A classic example is the Kurdish higher education minister Professor Dlawer Ala'Aldeen a professor of Clinical Microbiology and Head of the Molecular Bacteriology and Immunology Group (Faculty of Medicine) at University of Nottingham (Nottingham, UK).

Not to mention that the Iraqi president, foreign minister, chief of armed forces, chief of the air force, chief of the special forces and several other ministries are Kurdish and are fully capable of practicing their position whether in Baghdad or Erbil.

As for Syria, the US has already declared their position and they are against Kurds autonomy. The Kurdish groups don't serve anyone but themselves unlike the SNC who are a Western puppet group and the Syrian regime that serve the west. The Kurds may form alliances to achieve what they want.

You are just a pathetic man hiding behind fake "peace lover" identity. Typically it takes just 30 minutes of conversation with any self proclaimed
"liberal" Turk to bring out their true colours and still you ask yourselves why Kurds don't want to live with you when the supposedly anti-Nationalists openly suggest that Kurds are not "intellectual enough" funnily enough you have demonstrated your sheep mentality over and over.

[Partizan]

Besides this alanr guy repeats same nonsenses,funniest part was "Atatürk was pro-Western" part.Greeks who we fought against were supplied by British also we even fought against French directly in Southern Turkey :picard1:

Atatürk was the greatest anti-imperialist leader in 20.th century...

[alanr]

Sure he was. Keep convincing yourself of that. He westernized Turkey to the point that he even changed your alphabet and set all the foundations to change the very fabric of the Islamic Ottoman state to the scarf banning (in Universities) Turkey that you are today.

I urge you to challenge my last repose with actual evidence and not with your "laughter" that serves nothing other than demonstrate your in ability to participate in a civilised and educated debate.

[Partizan]

Sure he was. Keep convincing yourself of that. He westernized Turkey to the point that he even changed your alphabet and set all the foundations to change the very fabric of the Islamic Ottoman state to the scarf banning (in Universities) Turkey that you are today.

So what?Yasser Arafat,Gamal Abdel Nasser and almost all left-wing nationalist,anti-imperialist leaders were reformist and secularist.

Not to forget,real Imperialist puppets are Islamists.Just compare secular Assad to islamist Saudi royalty...Who is anti-imperialist?Who is American lapdog?

Your feudal Kurdish brain isn't able to understand secularism it seems :)

[alanr]

You seem to lack any sense of analyticall skills. The fact that Turkey to this day hangs pictures of Ataturk everywhere suggests that they still follow the "fathers" footsteps. Since the very creation of Turkey you have served as a base for the advancing armies of the West, not only that you even hosted nukes for them putting your own people in serious risk. To this day that policy is still continued and you are indeed hosting an anti-Missile shield again putting the citizens of Turkey in risk. Look outside the Turkish bubble and try to analyse the situation carefully. Believe me, it doesn't require an amount of IQ too different from that required to change a light bulb.

I shall repeat even though you will ignore it.

"I urge you to challenge my last repose with actual evidence and not with your "laughter" that serves nothing other than demonstrating your inability to participate in a civilised and educated debate."

[Partizan]

You seem to lack any sense of analyticall skills. The fact that Turkey to this day hangs pictures of Ataturk everywhere suggests that they still follow the "fathers" footsteps. Since the very creation of Turkey you have served as a base for the advancing armies of the West, not only that you even hosted nukes for them putting your own people in serious risk. To this day that policy is still continued and you are indeed hosting an anti-Missile shield again putting the citizens of Turkey in risk. Look outside the Turkish bubble and try to analyse the situation carefully. Believe me, it doesn't require an amount of IQ too different from that required to change a light bulb.

What you're talking about bases and such stuff happened in Demirel and other right-winger governments' era,at least 30 years later than Atatürk's death:picard1: Don't talk about issues you don't know please.Atatürk was such a third worldist leader as you can read in my signature...

Ho Chi Minh and Fidel Castro admired Atatürk,not British puppy Sheikh Said...

BTW see about Chavez and Atatürk:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58041

Just search the word "Atatürk" in e-book link I sent...Chavez is just 21.th century's Latin American Atatürk...

[alanr]

This is like debating with a brick wall. I do not need your sources to tell me anything as actions speak louder than words. Your Ataturk didn't just attempt to make you secular, he laid out all the necessary steps required for a modern Turkey to be pro-Western. The Actions of the many previous and current Turkish leaders speak for themselves. Erdogen is supposedly an "Islamic ruler" yet under his authority was the anti-missile shield in Turkey approved to protect Western interests, clearly demonstrating the double face mentality of the Turkish leaders which began with Ataturk. You can deny it all day, but the facts speak for themselves.

[Han Cholo]

So what?Yasser Arafat,Gamal Abdel Nasser and almost all left-wing nationalist,anti-imperialist leaders were reformist and secularist.

Not to forget,real Imperialist puppets are Islamists.Just compare secular Assad to islamist Saudi royalty...Who is anti-imperialist?Who is American lapdog?

Your feudal Kurdish brain isn't able to understand secularism it seems :)

But what about Iran? The Islamic Republic of Iran is more true anti-Imperialist than Turkey has ever been in recent years.

[Partizan]

This is like debating with a brick wall. I do not need your sources to tell me anything as actions speak louder than words. Your Ataturk didn't just attempt to make you secular, he laid out all the necessary steps required for a modern Turkey to be pro-Western. The Actions of the many previous and current Turkish leaders speak for themselves. Erdogen is supposedly an "Islamic ruler" yet under his authority was the anti-missile shield in Turkey approved to protect Western interests, clearly demonstrating the double face mentality of the Turkish leaders which began with Ataturk. You can deny it all day, but the facts speak for themselves.

What I mean is,Atatürk was NEVER diplomatically pro-Western and even many anti-imperialists adore him.Beside Chavez,also Messali Hadj reports that FLN guerillas in Algeria had pictures of Atatürk in their pockets,perhaps because of he kicked butts of Frenchies in 1920? :rolleyes:

Modernisation+Secularism=\=Pro-Western politics dear...

Turkey is pro-Western since 1950,not before...Atatürk kicked butts of imperialist Brits and Frenchies,if he was that pro-Western,he'd collaborate with invaders like last sultan Vahidettin did.However he choose resisting them.

I agree,right-wingers/neo-liberals like Menderes,Demirel,Özal and Erdoğan have always been pro-Western.It's a shame.But Atatürk was as anti-imperialist as Fidel Castro or Che Guevara...

[Partizan]

But what about Iran? The Islamic Republic of Iran is more true anti-Imperialist than Turkey has ever been in recent years.

Iran collaborates with another kind of imperialism,Russian one.

By the way problem is that,Islamists are too idealistic to be anti-imperialist.They have romantic ideals,for example Iran supported American backed Shia government of Iraq just because of sect...

A real anti-imperialist should have a dialectic materialist mind.

[Demhat]

Kids don't look Kurdish to me.

a few Kurds might have mixed with the Arab Population there yet they dont look Kurdish to me too.

This are the Kurds from Syria
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/578775_463903753631288_1262095123_n.jpghttp://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/255253_463332283688435_1935300664_n.jpg

[Demhat]

I have not once come across an individual outside of the Turkish bubble that makes so many claims, yet backs non of it up.

This is really something I have seen and learned only from Turkish members on various Internet Forums.

[Partizan]

This is really something I have seen and learned only from Turkish members on various Internet Forums.

Your friend alanr has no right to criticize Turkish members.Discussing with a guy who confuses being secular and modernised with being Western puppet is impossible...It just shows his ignorance and shallow mind.Perhaps because of Kurdish feudal mindset can't understand modern world's ideologies :)

[Demhat]

Your friend alanr has no right to criticize Turkish members.Discussing with a guy who confuses being secular and modernised with being Western puppet is impossible...


Dude just like my friend Alan tried to explain you, it doesnt take much IQ to understand it but it seems you guys want to turn blind. The Western Powers and Russia destroyed the Ottoman Empire. There were not enough man to even secure the general citizens. Atatürk made a deal with Western Powers, He became a tool of them and sold it to his "kids" as "victory over them". Victory with what? How? After they lost the war how and where did he get the mans power to stand another war against Western Powers?

Atatürk sold almost all Ottoman principles. He forced the people to learn the Latin Alphabet within 3 years, he banned the Headscarf within a "Country" with major Muslim population.



It just shows his ignorance and shallow mind.Perhaps because of Kurdish feudal mindset can't understand modern world's ideologies :)

:D dont make me laugh he gave you a good lesson in World politics. You Turks are probably the most uneducated people on the net yet the funniest part you feel superior to anyone.

[Partizan]

Dude just like my friend Alan tried to explain you, it doesnt take much IQ to understand it but it seems you guys want to turn blind. The Western Powers and Russia destroyed the Ottoman Empire. There were not enough man to even secure the general citizens. Atatürk made a deal with Western Powers, He became a tool of them and sold it to his "kids" as "victory over them". Victory with what? How? After they lost the war how and where did he get the mans power to stand another war against Western Powers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_War_of_Independence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne

Western powers were UTTERLY DEFEATED in Turkey...Ottomans were already perished however Atatürk leaded an anti-imperialist revolutionary war.

By Lloyd George:

The centuries rarely produce a genius. It is our bad luck that the great genius of our era was granted to the Turkish nation. We could not beat Mustafa Kemal.

By the way,if Atatürk was pro-Western,why Lenin choose to support him?Was he that dumb to support a pro-Western leader while Soviets were fighting against British backed White Army?

Answer is simple,Atatürk was fighting against British backed Greeks whereas Lenin was fighting against British backed anti-Communists.Their hostility against the West urged them to an alliance.

You ask who was backed by West?It's Sheikh Said in 1925,even Russkies understood that.It's a caricature from a Soviet magazine in 1925:

http://www.aydinlikhaber.com/resim/47976527.jpg

Turkish documents from 1930's also confirm,Seyid Rıza was visited from French agents who came from Syria.Yeah,Atatürk was pro-Western,that's why Westerners always set their Kurdish puppies upon his republic.


Atatürk sold almost all Ottoman principles. He forced the people to learn the Latin Alphabet within 3 years, he banned the Headscarf within a "Country" with major Muslim population.

And he has done good...Being extremely religious=/=Being anti-Western.See British and American support behind Wahhabis.Also changing alphabet to Latin is also about pan-Turkism.From 1918 to 1938,Azerbaijan used Latin alphabet,many Turkic states under USSR as well.Atatürk just wanted to keep cultural connection alive,it was one of reasons.



:D dont make me laugh he gave you a good lesson in World politics. You Turks are probably the most uneducated people on the net yet the funniest part you feel superior to anyone.

He shut up and waved white flag at last.He couldn't disprove me about positive opinions of anti-imperialist third world leaders upon Atatürk.

Well,if we Turks aren't superior to anyone...You Kurds aren't even valuable to talk about...

[Demhat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_War_of_Independence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne

Western powers were UTTERLY DEFEATED in Turkey...Ottomans were already perished however Atatürk leaded an anti-imperialist revolutionary war.

By Lloyd George:


By the way,if Atatürk was pro-Western,why Lenin choose to support him?Was he that dumb to support a pro-Western leader while Soviets were fighting against British backed White Army?

Your source Wikipedia :rolleyes:

It doesnt make much sense to discuss with you. If Atatürks had really defeated Western Powers he would never have signed a treaty which has cost the Turks many former Ottoman enclaves including the oil rich Mosul.

Are you kidding me dude? After the end of World War 1 when Turks saw that they have no chance winning the war why did they change the side and befriended themselves with the Western Powers. If Atatürk was anti imperialists why did the Turks join the US coalition to which also the Greeks belonged? You are in such a denial it makes no sense discussing with you :picard1:





He shut up and waved white flag at last.He couldn't disprove me about positive opinions of anti-imperialist third world leaders upon Atatürk.

Well,if we Turks aren't superior to anyone...You Kurds aren't even valuable to talk about...
You couldnt bring any valuable sources and yet still insist on he couldnt disprove you? :picard1: I have no desire to waste my time on a Turk in denial.

[Annihilus]

I am so happy we don't have oil, it is now forcing us to go for alternative energy ie inovate. Look at all the countries that have oil, all of them are shitholes except for Norway maybe but that is because they found it later in their history.

[Demhat]

Your proud "Anti imperialist" Atatürks speech towards Americans.

"Amerikalilar bizim Dost dur"
zfDafnNPBoU

I could give you hundreds of other examples showing that Atatürk was selling Ottomans to Western Powers. He was as Anti Imperialist as Onur and you are real leftists.

[alanr]

He is just hilarious. The ottoman empire with all its power was defeated, yet Ataturk with a morally crushed army and left overs managed to beat the same armies that ripped through the Ottoman empire. Yeah because that makes all the sense in the world. I don't buy into Erdogens "Islamic" bullocks in the same way I don't buy into the anti-imperialist so called policies of Ataturk.

[Partizan]

Your source Wikipedia :rolleyes:

Dude it doesnt make much sense to discuss with you. If Atatürks had really defeated Western Powers he would never have signed a treaty which has cost the Turks many former Ottoman enclaves including the oil rich Mosul.

Because British soldiers were settled there even before.However we even defeated FRANCE and kicked them out from Southern Turkey

BTW independence war and Lausanne are just facts,you can found it in every source.


Are you kidding me dude? After the end of World War 1 when Turks saw that they have no chance winning the war why did they change the side and befriended themselves with the Western Powers. If Atatürk was anti imperialists why did the Turks join the US coalition to which also the Greeks belonged? You are in such a denial it makes no sense discussing with you :picard1:

What?After WW1 Ottoman government resigned but Atatürk came to Anatolia for preparing people for independence war.Also it wasn't Atatürk who joined NATO and such stuff.Don't throw faults of İnönü and treason of Menderes to Atatürk.



You couldnt bring any valuable sources and yet still insist on he couldnt disprove you? :picard1: I have no desire to waste my time on a Turk in denial.

Wrong,I brought a book about Chavez.And it just proves Chavez was inspired from Atatürk and Venezuelan experts compare him to Atatürk along with Nasser,period.

Also you can use google about Atatürk and Messali Hadj...

[Annihilus]

Your proud "Anti imperialist" Atatürks speech towards Americans.

"Amerikalilar bizim Dost dur"
zfDafnNPBoU

I could give you hundreds of other examples showing that Atatürk was selling Ottomans to Western Powers. He was as Anti Imperialist as Onur and you are real leftists.




Look at body language, the other guy is following Atatürk

[Demhat]

He is just hilarious. The ottoman empire with all its power was defeated, yet Ataturk with a morally crushed army and left overs managed to beat the same armies that ripped through the Ottoman empire.

Exactly my point and they really buy it :D

They really believe he managed to do it and dont think a second aboutthat it was "sold as victory" to Turks just to make them happy. This is what I call real denial.

[Partizan]

Your proud "Anti imperialist" Atatürks speech towards Americans.

"Amerikalilar bizim Dost dur"
zfDafnNPBoU

I could give you hundreds of other examples showing that Atatürk was selling Ottomans to Western Powers. He was as Anti Imperialist as Onur and you are real leftists.

I can show similar videos of Tito,it doesn't mean he was pro-Western.Haven't you ever heard about diplomacy?Ah sorry Kurdish brain is too small for that.

Also if you know "Monument of Republic" in Taksim square,Atatürk was sculptured with Soviet generals,not Western ones.

Anyway,gotta wake up early tomorrow,I'll answer you later...

Atatürk was a real anti-imperialist,whereas Sheikh Said was a British puppet,period! :thumbs

[Demhat]

Look at body language, the other guy is following Atatürk

And what is so important about the other Guy? Do I need to post a Video where Atatürk bows down in front of Western mandates and calling them "Efendi". Lets face it and be honest. Atatürk was not dumb, He acted smart and could negotiate some lands and authority yet he had to sell all the Ottoman principles. He made the Turks and the new formed Turkish state a tool of Western powers for over centuries and Turkey is still one of the biggest in the Middle East.

[alanr]

Exactly my point and they really buy it :D

They really believe he managed to do it and dont think a second aboutthat it was "sold as victory" to Turks just to make them happy. This is what I call real denial.

"Owondey em kura neshet kem, ta esta ker ba do lak arosht" :D

Let the sheep believe what they are told to believe. He thinks a raised a white flag, yet I logged off because I have other commitments, not to mention the fact that everything I was telling him came out the other ear and he still continues to deny anything that he is told. Is there a point in me continuing this? as it's not the subject of the thread.

[Annihilus]

And what is so important about the other Guy? Do I need to post a Video where Atatürk bows down in front of Western mandates and calling them "Efendi". Lets face it and be honest. Atatürk was not dumb, He acted smart and could negotiate some lands and authority yet he had to sell all the Ottoman principles. He made the Turks and the new formed Turkish state a tool of Western powers for over centuries and Turkey is still one of the biggest in the Middle East.

I am not going to bother to look it up but he was an important figure.

Have you ever heard of courtesy? guess not

Fuck ottoman principles btw, who cares for them, I know I don't. Our very survival as a people was at stake. Everything Atatürk did was to lay the foundation as strong as possible so one day we could rise again. Siding (everybody has to side with somebody) with the USA was the smartest thing to do, not only for Turks but for the whole world or have you forgotten USSR? Oh wait, your whole movement was founded on their ideology.

[Demhat]

"Owondey em kura neshet kem, ta esta ker ba do lak arosht" :D

Let the sheep believe what they are told to believe. He thinks a raised a white flag, yet I logged off because I have other commitments, not to mention the fact that everything I was telling him came out the other ear and he still continues to deny anything that he is told. Is there a point in me continuing this? as it's not the subject of the thread.

Bro I have so many hours of discussions with them already behind me I know perfectly what you mean. He knows as much as we that he is simply talking bullock but he needs to deny it so he can still feel superior to other people :D

[Europa]

I highly doubt the population located in the Near/Middle East area will ever manage to sort anything out.Mainly, because of tribal/nomad style of life,resulting brain washing,low education and repression against human's rights.

[alanr]

I am not going to bother to look it up but he was an important figure.

Have you ever heard of courtesy? guess not

Fuck ottoman princeples btw, who cares for them, I know I don't. Our very survival as a people was at stake. Everything Atatürk did was to lay the foundation as strong as possible so one day we could rise again. Siding (everybody has to side with somebody) with the USA was the smartest thing to do, not only for Turks but for the whole world or have you forgotten USSR? Oh wait, your whole movement was founded on their principles.

That's all I wanted to hear. I'm not criticizing his decisions to side with the US, just stating obvious facts for the uneducated folk among us that seem to be riding a high horse.

When there is conflict between two larger players, off course it is in the peoples interest to side with the side that offers the most.

[alanr]

Bro I have so many hours of discussions with them already behind me I know perfectly what you mean. He knows as much as we that he is simply talking bullock but he needs to deny it so he can still feel superior to other people :D

Yes I know. You need to learn some Sorani by the way. :thumbs up

[Demhat]

Oh wait, your whole movement was founded on their principles.

You mean the PKK? Nonsense. Not every Kurd is a PKK member. Even the PKK has realized that Communism is not a solution so they build on Socialism. The PKK is not my first choice since they also do things with which I disagree yet any Kurdish movement is more in my favor than Turkish "solution" because the solutions I have heard of the past century was nothing to be "satisfied" with.

[alanr]

I highly doubt the population located in the Near/Middle East area will ever manage to sort anything out.Mainly, because of tribal/nomad style of life,resulting brain washing,low education and repression against human's rights.

That's quite ignorant to be honest. The problem is actually interference from outside powers. The middle east is strategically important as if you control the middle east you have borders with all of the super powers and so you can build up your military power around them.

It is that importance along with oil that has cursed the middle east. Off course the mentality of the people doesn't help but it's only a small part. Blame the mongols, they invaded the middle east and gave Europe the upper hand.

[Cannabis Sativa]

And what is so important about the other Guy? Do I need to post a Video where Atatürk bows down in front of Western mandates and calling them "Efendi". Lets face it and be honest. Atatürk was not dumb, He acted smart and could negotiate some lands and authority yet he had to sell all the Ottoman principles. He made the Turks and the new formed Turkish state a tool of Western powers for over centuries and Turkey is still one of the biggest in the Middle East.

Regarding your kıro origin, i assume you don't know about Adnan Menderes which has made Turkey a stronghold of United States in the past. We still suffer from Adnan Menderes alike liberal right wing politicians not Atatürk's CHP.

[Demhat]

That's all I wanted to hear. I'm not criticizing his decisions to side with the US, just stating obvious facts for the uneducated folk among us that seem to be riding a high horse.

When there is conflict between two larger players, off course it is in the peoples interest to side with the side that offers the most.

The thing is most Kurds and I have not a problem with Atatürk siding with the US but many retarded( I am not going to call it uneducated since this goes beyond it) people still deny it and blame the Kurds for trying to do exactly the same :D

[Annihilus]

Yeah but in the end you guys always get played, what makes you think things will go different for you now?

Look at current situation, you are siding with Turks, Iran/Syria (China/Russia) or USA depending on situation. Pawn will stay pawn

[alanr]

Yeah but in the end you guys always get played, what makes you think things will go different for you now?

Because they have? in the last century Kurdish power lasted a couple years only. So far it has lasted 20 years (from 91) and is only growing.

[Partizan]

I want Kurds to explain those:
1.Atatürk's alliance with Soviets against Britain.
2.Third Wordlist leaders' admiration to Atatürk(yes I still wait response about the book about Hugo Chavez)
3.Britain's support to Sheikh Said,beside it proves Kurds being British puppets,why England would support a rebellion against a pro-Western country?
4.Last but not least,the statue which Fidel Castro built on center of La Habana:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XFn7NezTo6o/T705OjYD1AI/AAAAAAAAB_Y/VQ0FqtIR-aI/s400/Havana+K%C3%9CBA+atat%C3%BCrk.jpg

If you think Fidel Castro was pro-Western or dumb enough to building a pro-Western leader's statue while being extremely anti-Western,be my guest.But please don't spread lies from your backward primitive feudal brains.Go and bow to your feudal masters(Ağa) like Ahmet Türk instead :D

[alanr]

Again, you are just "saying things" while the historical facts and current facts speak for themselves. Also, what is it with the childish community and their tag obsessions? If anyone bows to "Aghas" it's your Turmen brothers in Iraq who are known to be the most tribal and uneducated bunch. In fact not long ago Turkmen and Arab tribes men clashed in Kirkuk and killed each other other god knows what. Some farm shit.

I'm going to stop it here. This is not the subject of the thread. I'm still waiting for the Turkish crew to actually challenge me in regards to the subject (page one)

[Partizan]

Again, you are just "saying things" while the historical facts and current facts speak for themselves.

Historical facts show three things...
1.Atatürk defeated Westerners and their Greek/Armenian/Kurdish(see Koçgiri) puppets.
2.Soviets supported him in the war against the West.
3.Third Worldist and anti-imperialist leaders admire him


If anyone bows to "Aghas" it's your Turmen brothers in Iraq who are known to be the most tribal and uneducated bunch. In fact not long ago Turkmen and Arab tribes men clashed in Kirkuk and killed each other other god knows what. Some farm shit.

Sorry,in Turkey even your so-called Socialist BDP deputies are Aghas.Ahmet Türk is the biggest example...

[Annihilus]

I'm still waiting for the Turkish crew to actually challenge me in regards to the subject (page one)

I won't challenge you because I don't know what you really want. Do you want an independent Kurdistan? Yes that can happen and we Turks will even help you because it is our best interest too. I rather have you as neighbours than Arabs. If you dream about a greater Kurdistan including parts of Turkey I suggest you dig a hole and lay in it right now because that is never going to happen.

Be realistic and have what you can, do not make the same mistake other nations have learned from war, a greater... simply never works. You guys came a bit too late to the table for how some of you think. You really think you can expand and do all the stuff that was done hundreds of years ago? It is the year 2012 now.

Grab what you can and choose your friends wisely, or you'll end up with nothing, again

[Partizan]

Be realistic and have what you can, do not make the same mistake other nations have learned from war, a greater... simply never works. You guys came a bit too late to the table for how some of you think. You really think you can expand and do all the stuff that was done hundreds of years ago? It is the year 2012 now.

Grab what you can and choose your friends wisely, or you'll end up with nothing, again

:thumb001:

They just want to turn region into blood lake like in ex-Yugoslavia...

[alanr]

Haha man you have to be the most stupid over grown child I have ever seen. You are clearly googling "Kurds are bad" and posting what ever you can find to illustrate your inability to participate in a civilized discussion. I asked Mccan to prove that the examples I provided were Kurdish and you respond with the pile of rubbish above.

Again, you prove how you lack the basic skills required to reference anything and you clearly didn't read anything that you post. "http://www.christiansofiraq.com" is the most bias source in Iraq and they post any old rubbish (none of it can be verified).

Now the reality on the ground for Christians in Kurdistan from non bias sources:

BBC Video: Peaceful Christmas for Christians in Kurdistan (http://www.krg.org/articles/detail.asp?smap=02010200&lngnr=12&rnr=73&anr=42791)

Iraq’s Kurds offer homes to refugee Christians (http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2011/10/iraqs-kurds-offer-homes-to-refugee-christians.php)

Christians have every right including the right to educate in their mother tongue and full cultural/religious rights.

[alanr]

I won't challenge you because I don't know what you really want. Do you want an independent Kurdistan? Yes that can happen and we Turks will even help you because it is our best interest too. I rather have you as neighbours than Arabs. If you dream about a greater Kurdistan including parts of Turkey I suggest you dig a hole and lay in it right now because that is never going to happen.

Be realistic and have what you can, do not make the same mistake other nations have learned from war, a greater... simply never works. You guys came a bit too late to the table for how some of you think. You really think you can expand and do all the stuff that was done hundreds of years ago? It is the year 2012 now.

Grab what you can and choose your friends wisely, or you'll end up with nothing, again

A bit over your head there. It's more complicated than that. If Syria falls and Iran follows Turkey will have no choice but to give into more demands. Turkey never gives anything to Kurds in Turkey unless there are developments else where. As Syria went into chaos and Turkey sensed increase Kurdish power and rights in Syria they suddenly decided to allow an optional Kurdish class in school.

Once all of Turkeys eastern borders are controlled by Kurds the situation will be completely different and the Kurdish position in Turkey will strengthen significantly. I don't see Kurds getting independence from Turkey in the next 10 or so years but autonomy is very possible. As for the other parts of Kurdistan, well geo-politics will decide that.

[Annihilus]

So dude what are tens of thousands of Kurdish refugees doing in Turkey right now? How come you never mention that? Like I said choose your goals and your friends wisely. One thing you must admit, Turks make good allies, we never betray them.

[Annihilus]

A bit over your head there. It's more complicated than that. If Syria falls and Iran follows Turkey will have no choice but to give into more demands. Turkey never gives anything to Kurds in Turkey unless there are developments else where. As Syria went into chaos and Turkey sensed increase Kurdish power and rights in Syria they suddenly decided to allow an optional Kurdish class in school.

Once all of Turkeys eastern borders are controlled by Kurds the situation will be completely different and the Kurdish position in Turkey will strengthen significantly. I don't see Kurds getting independence from Turkey in the next 10 or so years but autonomy is very possible. As for the other parts of Kurdistan, well geo-politics will decide that.

Kurds in Turkey are mine, no one can have them:thumb001:

[alanr]

So dude what are tens of thousands of Kurdish refugees doing in Turkey right now? How come you never mention that? Like I said choose your goals and your friends wisely. One thing you must admit, Turks make good allies, we never betray them.

I haven't heard of any Kurdish refuges in Turkey. Why go to Turkey when the KRG is just round the corner? There are 10,000 Kurds from Syria in the KRG right now, but I haven't heard of any in Turkey. Infact after the earth quake in Eastern Turkey it was the KRG that sent millions of dollars in aid and mobile homes/tents for people to live in, as the Turkish government took their time to provide anything.

I'd disagree with that. Ataturk made promises he didn't keep. Think about it, instead of trying to Turkify everyone in Anatolia he could have make an effort to give equal rights to all and the situation would have been different today. Thousands of lives and billions of dollars would have been saved. History shows me otherwise.

[Partizan]

I'd disagree with that. Ataturk made promises he didn't keep. Think about it, instead of trying to Turkify everyone in Anatolia he could have make an effort to give equal rights to all and the situation would have been different today. Thousands of lives and billions of dollars would have been saved. History shows me otherwise.

Atatürk didn't promise anything to Kurds.It's just an urban legend,he promised autonomy.Turkish historian Sinan Meydan already disprove it...

BTW ALL civilized states,like France and Germany,are nation states.

You can say Germany is a confederation but all people call themselves as German there.I think assimilation and melting pot is the best method,too bad this policy was left after Menderes,in 1954.

[alanr]

Atatürk didn't promise anything to Kurds.It's just an urban legend,he promised autonomy.Turkish historian Sinan Meydan already disprove it...

BTW ALL civilized states,like France and Germany,are nation states.

You can say Germany is a confederation but all people call themselves as German there.I think assimilation and melting pot is the best method,too bad this policy was left after Menderes,in 1954.

It's not a "legend" Ataturk visited the local leaders. Off course you'll deny it. I don't care anyway. It may work for some countries who ARE civilised such as the French. But Turks can't be compared to the modern french who will provide even immigrants with any rights they want, yet Turkey banned Kurdish and to this day will not provide the human rights that are required. Like I said, it is clear that your education is very limited otherwise you'd know that Turkey can be compared to the UK or the US or even Canada where more than one ethnic groups live in a country yet there are regions. Look at the UK, the English could if they wanted to force their rule over the whole of the UK and force everyone to call themselves "English" yet England is a region which is a part of the country called the UK, as is Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Turkey has made mistakes and they are paying for it.

[Annihilus]

I haven't heard of any Kurdish refuges in Turkey. Why go to Turkey when the KRG is just round the corner? There are 10,000 Kurds from Syria in the KRG right now, but I haven't heard of any in Turkey. Infact after the earth quake in Eastern Turkey it was the KRG that sent millions of dollars in aid and mobile homes/tents for people to live in, as the Turkish government took their time to provide anything .

Comon man, are you really telling me all those refugees from Syria aren't Kurds? KRG is such a big capable organisation ey, well let them take all refugees then, it is getting close to 100.000 soon. Oh and we did give them shelter too during Iraq war, but we are always bad guys for brainwashed individuals.


I'd disagree with that. Ataturk made promises he didn't keep. Think about it, instead of trying to Turkify everyone in Anatolia he could have make an effort to give equal rights to all and the situation would have been different today. Thousands of lives and billions of dollars would have been saved. History shows me otherwise.

Atatürk made one promise, that everybody in Turkey would be save and equal, that promise has been kept. Everybody I know in Turkey is something, laz, gurcu, arnavut, macir, abaza list goes on for ever and yes even kurt. But difference between them (us) and you is we stand behind our nation, we do not want to cut it up, we do not kill people to achieve that goal. I do not know from where you are but really Turkey is not the Nazi state you portray it to be, if you are a normal citizen you can be anybody you want to be, even Kurdish.

[alanr]

Comon man, are you really telling me all those refugees from Syria aren't Kurds? KRG is such a big capable organisation ey, well let them take all refugees then, it is getting close to 100.000 soon. Oh and we did give them shelter too during Iraq war, but we are always bad guys for brainwashed individuals.

The majority of them are Arabs and Turkmen. Yes, why not? since 2003 we have sheltered 200,000 Arab refuges and 100,000 Christians. The Kurdish cities in Syria are relatively peaceful and so not many would flee anyway. The people that have fled are safe and sound in Duhok. Numbering 10,000.

In the Iraq war around a million or two Kurds headed to the borders, yes the Turks allowed only 30,000 or so to enter, resulting in thousands dying (there is evidence of that). The only reason the 30,000 were allowed to enter was for Turkey to make propaganda and try to look like the angels they weren't. I have relatives that went to the Turkish border and the Turkish soldiers there had a "shoot" if they enter policy. And they did shoot people. Thankfully my family went towards Iran. As bad as the Iranian government is, the Iranian people and government allowed 500,000 to enter and provided food and support to all, which is something I admit. If the Turks did the same I would have admitted it, but they didn't.


Atatürk made one promise, that everybody in Turkey would be save and equal, that promise has been kept. Everybody I know in Turkey is something, laz, gurcu, arnavut, macir, abaza list goes on for ever and yes even kurt. But difference between them (us) and you is we stand behind our nation, we do not want to cut it up, we do not kill people to achieve that goal. I do not know from where you are but really Turkey is not the Nazi state you portray it to be, if you are a normal citizen you can be anybody you want to be, even Kurdish.

No he made more than that. I don't want to go too deep into it because frankly I wont achieve much other than wasting my own time. I'm from slemani (KRG). I'm sure there are some decent Turks (and I have met some) however as a group and as a country you have a signficant amount of racism towards Kurds and Turkish policies are fascist. You can not be a "normal Kurdish citizen" you have to be a Turkish Kurd and I don't see why Kurds should accept that. For example, in the KRG turkmen are recognised as an ethnic group in the constitution paving the way for government funded schools teaching in Turkish as a first language. In Turkey Kurds ARE NOT recognised, and so they CAN NOT ask the government to fund a Kurdish schools nor are they allowed to even fund their own schools.

[Annihilus]

Dude there are new laws, if parents have the need to teach their childeren an additional language than Turkish it will be organized and payed for by the state.

Law for private funding is even older but that hasn't been used much, guess there was not much need for it since Kurds in Turkey prefer to speak Turkish anyway, even amongst them self:p

I bet you even speak Turkish in KRG:D

[alanr]

Dude there are new laws, if parents have the need to teach their childeren an additional language than Turkish it will be organized and payed for by the state.

Law for private funding is even older but that hasn't been used much, guess there was not much need for it since Kurds in Turkey prefer to speak Turkish anyway, even amongst them self:p

A "private" course is in no way or form near enough. Anyone in any country can get a private course even if you are not native.

Kurds don't "prefer" to. That is the result of years of forced assimilation that has failed in its core, yet has had significant effects on the population. This is the Kurdish consitution.

Article 5:
First: The people of the Kurdistan Region are composed of Kurds, Turkmens, Arabs,
Chaldo-Assyrian-Syriacs, Armenians and others who are citizens of Kurdistan.

Article 14:
First: Kurdish and Arabic shall be the two official languages of the Kurdistan Region.
This Constitution guarantees the right of the citizens of the Kurdistan Region to educate their children in their mother tongue, including Turkmen, Assyrian, and Armenian, in the
government’s educational institutions and in accordance with pedagogical guidelines.
Second: Along with Kurdish and Arabic, Turkmen and Assyrian shall be official
languages in administrative districts that are densely populated by speakers of Turkmen
and Assyrian. This shall be regulated by law.

As you can see the Turks are clearly recognised. The Kurdish government pays for their schools and they learn Turkish first, then Kurdish. This is why you will never hear a Turkmen inside the KRG complain (i.e. 300,000 Turks in Erbil) and more in the other provinces (though Kirkuk is a different story). The Turks in Kurdistan enjoy their full rights and you will not find a beep of complaint from them, infact the Turkmen in the KRG have stated on several occasions that they are against any Turkish interference in Kurdistan.

Turkey as a state has failed to provide Kurds with enough rights.

[Onur]

I have deleted some offtopic and personal insults.

Stay in the topic pls

[Annihilus]

If you think we are going to divide the country by giving some children Kurdish (would be funny because their parents probaly wouldn't understand them) and some Turkish education, you can forget about it. Maybe they should also theach in the dialect from my village, no outsider can understand that.

[alanr]

Then expect the violence to continue I suppose.

[ChildOfTheJin]

If you think we are going to divide the country by giving some children Kurdish (would be funny because their parents probaly wouldn't understand them) and some Turkish education, you can forget about it. Maybe they should also theach in the dialect from my village, no outsider can understand that.

Maybe the Turks, Arabs and Persians should get out of Kurdistan ? Thats the best idea :thumb001:

[ChildOfTheJin]

Kids don't look Kurdish to me.

You can't classify Kids. They are too young for classification. You have such a stupid theory that modern Kurds have been Kurdified. wtf? :picard1:

[Lathander]

And what is so important about the other Guy? Do I need to post a Video where Atatürk bows down in front of Western mandates and calling them "Efendi". Lets face it and be honest. Atatürk was not dumb, He acted smart and could negotiate some lands and authority yet he had to sell all the Ottoman principles. He made the Turks and the new formed Turkish state a tool of Western powers for over centuries and Turkey is still one of the biggest in the Middle East.

You have strange fantasies kurd

We founded our republic by defeating western powers,mainly greek army who were a puppet of big westerner boys like you are.And it is funny that you feel no shame while you accuse us with being puppet for the west.The west has been supporting you,protecting you on political arena actively for few decades (though they did it before too),writing a fictional history for you ,funding your terrorist organization,even have a kurdistan in great middle east project yet you idiot kurds think of yourselves as warriors of freedom and tell us we are puppets of the west:picard2:

You are nothing but puppets of the west.

[Demhat]

Again, you are just "saying things" while the historical facts and current facts speak for themselves. Also, what is it with the childish community and their tag obsessions? If anyone bows to "Aghas" it's your Turmen brothers in Iraq who are known to be the most tribal and uneducated bunch. In fact not long ago Turkmen and Arab tribes men clashed in Kirkuk and killed each other other god knows what. Some farm shit.

I'm going to stop it here. This is not the subject of the thread. I'm still waiting for the Turkish crew to actually challenge me in regards to the subject (page one)

They are just trying to overcome their frustration with these tags. Even the Girls or let us call them "girly mans" of them act like this :D

[MarkyMark]

Just going to fit this in here, the Christians should be the ones starting their own nation. They have been on those lands for at least 5000 years. :thumb001:

[Demhat]

So dude what are tens of thousands of Kurdish refugees doing in Turkey right now? How come you never mention that? Like I said choose your goals and your friends wisely. One thing you must admit, Turks make good allies, we never betray them.

The thing is if Turkey would decide to give Kurds Autonomy similar to that of Ireland or Palestine, there would be no problem. But your Turkish state decided to try to assimilate Kurds for over 100 years now.

[alanr]

Just going to fit this in here, the Christians should be the ones starting their own nation. They have been on those lands for at least 5000 years. :thumb001:

I'm done trying to convince people that it's againts the Christian population interest (I'm 1/4 Mesopotamian Christian myself). Let them have their region (where?), but nor the Kurds or Arabs will protect them. They have no real unity (divided between churches and different loyalties), no real military experience or resources. They will be a big tartget for terrorists and will hasten their exist from the middle east.

Having said that Christians in Kurdistan enjoy special rights, including the right to keep their towns mosque free. Muslims can't buy land in a Christian town nor can we build mosques in their areas. It is the law. Thogh they can buy land anywhere and build a church anywhere, infact they have a massive new church in the center of Erbil. :picard2: