Are Modern Day Jews Ethnically Closer to Europeans or Ancient Israelites?

[MarkyMark]

Are Modern Day Jews Ethnically Closer to Europeans or Ancient Israelites?

[Sikeliot]

Who are modern Jews closest to? Southern Italians and Sicilians. for whatever reason.

So, Europeans.

[accepthetruth]

Who are modern Jews closest to? Southern Italians and Sicilians. for whatever reason.

So, Europeans.

No way. Maybe Sephards, which are only 20% or so of the worlds jews!

Most jews are Ashkenazim- white guys with big heads and big noses (different looking from Levantine noses) that look like they are caucasian/Eurasian (which they definitely are. look up "Khazaria" .) No way does David Schwimmer, Larry King, David Letterman, Ben Stein, Barbara Streisand, etc. look like Italians or Sicilians. They look like what they are; eastern european or Eurasian.

[Sikeliot]

No way. Maybe Sephards, which are only 20% or so of the worlds jews!

Most jews are Ashkenazim- white guys with big heads and big noses (different looking from Levantine noses) that look like they are caucasian/Eurasian (which they definitely are. look up "Khazaria" .) No way does David Schwimmer, Larry King, David Letterman, Ben Stein, Barbara Streisand, etc. look like Italians or Sicilians. They look like what they are; eastern european or Eurasian.

I can agree on the others, but David Schwimmer does look like he could be south Italian.

Ashkenazis are also genetically very close to Sephardis and to southern Italians/Sicilians.

Either way, Ashkenazis and Sephardis are closer to SE Europeans than to any Levantines modern or ancient.

[accepthetruth]

I can agree on the others, but David Schwimmer does look like he could be south Italian.

Ashkenazis are also genetically very close to Sephardis and to southern Italians/Sicilians.

Either way, Ashkenazis and Sephardis are closer to SE Europeans than to any Levantines modern or ancient.

Ashkenazi's look like they are from the Causcaus region. Genetic or otherwise, they look like they are eastern european if anything. If David Schwimmer was Italian I would think he would be either a 25% or less, to me he does not look like he could be southern italian unless he was mixed.

[MarkyMark]

Updated poll.

[accepthetruth]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Khazarfall.png/350px-Khazarfall.png
http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=18843&d=1159112603

See these maps of Khazaria? Looks Eurasian? Makes more sense. There is a bunch of white people living in israel, and so what if they have heritage that is supposively from the Levant? If you follow the chain of revolution, everyone passed through that area, so that makes them no different than anyone else. And who knows how much blood they have left from those old days? They are still in the same longitude so to speak, just higher up than the levantine. It makes sense that Ashkenazim would be closer to Europeans, if Eurasians are to be closer to Europeans than Levantines.

[Food]

Ashkenezis can look southerner like this guy
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/8177/benbernanke.png

[spaz]

I've looked at some pictures of European Jews from before World War 2. Some of them looked European, some of them looked Middle Eastern, many looked like a combination of both.

[Sikeliot]

I think the thing we must remember is, Ashkenazis and Sephardis are genetically almost the same population.

[spaz]

I googled pictures of Polish Jews. But the woman on the left does not look very Polish, or European. She looks almost like an Arab to me. Where did they get this look from? I don't think it looks really Italian, unless they are really dark Italians.

http://www.mchekc.org/sites/www/Uploads/Images/Resources/From%20the%20Heart/Rothstein,%20Michael%20%28RIGHT%29.JPG

More Polish Jews, they look Middle Eastern to me.

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/Jews_of_Poland_WW2/Polish%20Jews%20WW2/Images/Warsaw_Ghetto_60.jpg

http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/yeshiva-slide7.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rJ1HUu50Oyg/S-YF0DhEhHI/AAAAAAAAAC0/s-u4B4HONGA/s1600/Herschel+Grynszpan+%2817%29.jpg

[Anusiya]

They are semites, so most of them look similar to Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians etc. I didn't see that option in the poll.

[Sikeliot]

I don't think most of them look like other Levantines. Look at people like Barbara Streisand, or Jesse Eisenberg. Or Bar Rafaeli. hardly Levantine looking.

[zlakopistou]

Not all Jews are Western Jews (sefaradi and ashkenazi).

[spaz]

I don't know what Barbara Streisand looks like, but it isn't European. I think her facial features look completely foreign.

[kenji]

Naama Kopelman's study, 2009

Naama M. Kopelman, Lewi Stone, Chaolong Wang, Dov Gefel, Marcus W. Feldman, Jossi Hillel, and Noah A. Rosenberg. "Genomic microsatellites identify shared Jewish ancestry intermediate between Middle Eastern and European populations." BMC Genetics 10:80 (published online only, December 8, 2009). (Mirror) Excerpts:


"We perform a genome-wide population-genetic study of Jewish populations, analyzing 678 autosomal microsatellite loci in 78 individuals from four Jewish groups together with similar data on 321 individuals from 12 non-Jewish Middle Eastern and European populations. ... We find that the Jewish populations show a high level of genetic similarity to each other, clustering together in several types of analysis of population structure. Further, Bayesian clustering, neighbor-joining trees, and multidimensional scaling place the Jewish populations as intermediate between the non-Jewish Middle Eastern and European populations. ... These results support the view that the Jewish populations largely share a common Middle Eastern ancestry and that over their history they have undergone varying degrees of admixture with non-Jewish populations of European descent. ...


================================================== =============================

only ASHKENAZI jews based on "STEVEN BRAY'S STUDY 2010" is more close to southern european countries

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html


calculated concurrently to the PCA, confirms that there is a closer relationship between the AJ and several European populations (Tuscans, Italians, and French) than between the AJ and Middle Eastern populations (Fig. S2B)."

[kenji]

1.The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite. The Israelite haplotypes fall into Y-DNA haplogroups J and E.

2.Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples from the northern Mediterranean region and even less from Slavs and Khazars. The non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q1b1a (typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European but the most common Ashkenazic variant comes from somewhere in Asia, probably Central Asia).

3.Dutch Jews from the Netherlands also descend from northwestern Europeans.

4.Sephardim also descend, in a smaller way, from various non-Israelite peoples.


5.Georgian Jews (Gruzinim) are a mix of Georgians and Israelites.

6.Yemenite Jews (Temanim) are a mix of Yemenite Arabs and Israelites.

7.Moroccan Jews, Algerian Jews, and Tunisian Jews are mainly Israelites.

8.Libyan Jews are mainly Israelites who may have mixed somewhat with Berbers.

9.Ethiopian Jews are almost exclusively Ethiopian, with little or no Israelite ancestry.

10.Bene Israel Jews and Cochin Jews of India have much Indian ancestry in their mtDNA.

11.Palestinian Arabs are probably partly Israelite.



SOURCE-http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html

"STUDIES OF JEWISH POPULATION 1"

[Insuperable]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56793&page=19
Read my post.
There were a lot studies which were done on Ashkenazi's ( or Sephardims ), Syrians, Lebanese, other Jews...but they were done solely based on them and using their data they mapped their genetic distance between them.
But when you put "other players in the field" it si obvious that Ashkenazis's will show affinity towards European population.

[Partizan]

If you've ever read "Thirteenth Tribe" by Koestler,it gives useful documents about Khazarian Jewish population in East and Central Europe...

However genetics mostly don't match with Khazar theory :eek:

[kenji]

i got it from Wikipedia and i guess it approx same as khazar theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews





Y DNA studies examine various paternal lineages of modern Jewish populations. Such studies tend to imply a small number of founders in an old population whose members parted and followed different migration paths.[1] In most Jewish populations, these male lines ancestors appear to have been mainly, but not exclusively, Middle Eastern. For example, Ashkenazi Jews share more common paternal lineages with other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than with non-Jewish populations in areas where Jews lived in Eastern Europe, Germany and the French Rhine Valley. This is consistent with Jewish traditions in placing most Jewish paternal ancestry either in the region of Canaan, or more generally in the Middle East.[2]


The maternal lineages of Jewish populations, studied by looking at mitochondrial DNA, are generally more heterogeneous.[3] But also concerning this type of DNA there are signs of a dominant contribution from a small number of founders. Most of the time, the geographical or ethnic origin of the maternal line founders is unclear or debatable.[3]


Studies of autosomal DNA, which look at the entire DNA mixture, have become increasingly important as the technology develops, but also complex in their conclusions. They show that Jewish populations tend to form relatively closely related groups, with most sharing significant ancestry in common. For all non Middle-eastern Jewish populations, with the exception of Ethiopian and Indian Jews, the genetic composition of different Jewish groups show a wealth of shared Middle Eastern ancestry. Interpretation of this component of ancestry can sometimes be made complex, because evidence of similar components of ancestry are found in many non-Jewish groups in Southern Europe, North Africa, and areas in and around the Near East. This common Jewish ancestry is also complemented by significant but varying degrees of admixture with non-Jewish historical host populations. In the case of Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Moroccan Jews, who are apparently closely related, the non-Jewish component is mainly southern European, and an especially close relationship to modern Italians has been remarked by some authors.[4][5]

Ethiopian Jews and Indian Jews have been shown to be closest to other populations of Africa and India respectively.

[Insuperable]

Some studies are bullshit like this one

In 2011, Moorjani[55] et al. show to have detected 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations (Ashkenazim, Syrian Jews, Iranian Jews, Iraqi Jews, Greek Jews, Turkey Jews, Italian Jews) that they analyzed. Researchers from the Harvard Medical School estimate that the exchange of genes occurred approximately 72 generations ago (or about 2,000 years). Lawrence Schiffman, professor of Hebrew and Judaic studies at Yeshiva University, believes the intermixing may have occurred during the Hellenistic period (c. 320–30 B.C.E.), when Jewish communities were resident in many North African coastal cities, or during the First Temple period (c. 950–600 B.C.E.), when the Israelite kings, including Solomon, had trade relationships with Africa.[56]

On every autosomal test Ashkenazi's show no or almost no subsaharan ancestary


i got it from Wikipedia and i guess it approx same as khazar theory

What do you mean? Its says clearly that Khazar theory is not supported. They are converts ( Ashkenazis's ) but not Khazar converts.

[zlakopistou]

^ why is it bullshit? 3%-5% African is quite enough and it could actually be higher for some groups.

The only shit is the dates of African admixture: it's very likely that people in the Levant were already part African before the Jewish diaspora and maybe even before the bronze age.

[Insuperable]

^ why is it bullshit? 3%-5% African is quite enough and it could actually be higher for some groups.

The only shit is the dates of African admixture: it's very likely that people in the Levant were already part African before the Jewish diaspora and maybe even before the bronze age.

It says subsaharan African. I mean bullshit in the case of Ashkenazi's while for the others I am not sure. On autosomal tests they do not show not even 1% not to mention at least 3% and not to mention up to 5%

So either the the abstract of the paper is not put correctly or the paper is shit.

[zlakopistou]

Ashkenazis aren't really different from others. And it's quite clear Ashkenazis have African admixture (lineages and autosomally).


But I agree, the paper was confusing and the estimates are off.

[Insuperable]

[QUOTE=zlakopistou;1085810]Ashkenazis aren't really different from others. And it's quite clear Ashkenazis have African admixture (lineages and autosomally).

But they are different than the rest. If you by lineages mean haplogroup frequency and if by that you mean haplogroup E for example, you do realize that it is existent in many nations in Europe and has nothing to do with Africa since one branch of it is a European branch.
Regarding all these please read the post 18.

[zlakopistou]

I mean lineages that are unambiguously African such as mtdna L2 and ydna E1a.

[Anusiya]

Sub-saharan or hyperborean, this stuff as time passes will read more and more defunct. It is only natural to have genetic overlaps throughout the world with absolutely no explanation. That's how they came up with the sub-saharan bullshit about Greeks.

[StonyArabia]

Europeans, well the Palestinians have more claim to be related to the Israelites, but the Mizharim would be the best representive of modern day Israelites, and some Jewish communities like the Temanim are Arabian converts who genetically don't differ from Arabian Muslims at all.

Ashkenazim actually score SSA admix but it's mostly East African, the Sephardim score more. Ashkenazim score about 1% on average, however there is an Ashkenazi woman who scored 5% East African on Eurogenes, which is similar to what some Sephardim get.

[Anusiya]

I don't think most of them look like other Levantines. Look at people like Barbara Streisand, or Jesse Eisenberg. Or Bar Rafaeli. hardly Levantine looking.



http://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/_img/actors/actor_410.jpg

http://www.kissarmyfinland.com/webpage/pictures/history/latino-heat.jpg

http://www.kissarmyfinland.com/webpage/pictures/history/young_gene.jpg

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/60163041/Dana+International+Dana+2011.png

The majority is pretty Middle Eastern.

[kenji]

[QUOTE=Solin;1085741]Some studies are bullshit like this one

In 2011, Moorjani[55] et al. show to have detected 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations (Ashkenazim, Syrian Jews, Iranian Jews, Iraqi Jews, Greek Jews, Turkey Jews, Italian Jews) that they analyzed. Researchers from the Harvard Medical School estimate that the exchange of genes occurred approximately 72 generations ago (or about 2,000 years). Lawrence Schiffman, professor of Hebrew and Judaic studies at Yeshiva University, believes the intermixing may have occurred during the Hellenistic period (c. 320–30 B.C.E.), when Jewish communities were resident in many North African coastal cities, or during the First Temple period (c. 950–600 B.C.E.), when the Israelite kings, including Solomon, had trade relationships with Africa.[56]

On every autosomal test Ashkenazi's show no or almost no subsaharan ancestary

who's talking about Ashkenazi's jew ......i know they have european percentage

i'm saying all other jew population got more middle eastern and israieli percentage

[1f54142]

Nowadays they are too mixed to notice their middle eastern background.

[Myanthropologies]

With the exception of Sicilians, Maltese, and Greeks, Jews are genetically closer to Ancient Israelites and modern Levantines.

[MinervaItalica]

Central Europe