Hemoglobin D in Ethnic British indicates admixture from the Indo-Pakistani region

[StonyArabia]

“HEMOGLOBIN is the oxygen transporting substance found in the red blood cells. There are hundreds of different hemoglobin variants identified in all races and populations of people. The kind of hemoglobin we have depends upon our genetic inheritance. Genes are units of inheritance passed on from our parents. These messengers determine characteristics such as eye and hair color, and they also determine hemoglobin type.” - The Virginia Sickle Cell Awareness Program (VASCAP), http://views.vcu.edu/pediatrics/vascap/fast_facts/HemoD.PDF



“Most people have the type of hemoglobin called hemoglobin A (also called normal or adult hemoglobin). However there are many different types of hemoglobin found in people throughout the world. Hemoglobin D is one type; sickle hemoglobin is another type.”- University of Rochester Medical Center, Division of Genetics, http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/genetics/brochures/pdf/hbdbro1.pdf



“Hemoglobin D is uncommon in North America, occurring in less than 1 of 5000 persons. In the Punjab region of India and Pakistan, approximately 3 percent of the populations have the hemoglobin D Trait. This trait is more common in people of English, Irish, or Scotch ancestry than in those of other ethnic groups.” - The Virginia Sickle Cell Awareness Program (VASCAP), http://views.vcu.edu/pediatrics/vascap/fast_facts/HemoD.PDF



“Hemoglobin D is found in people whose ancestors come from Pakistan and Northwestern India and occasionally Europeans, especially the British and Irish” – University of Rochester Medical Center, Division of Genetics, http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/genetics/brochures/pdf/hbdbro1.pdf



"[This trait is more common in people of English, Irish or Scotch ancestry than in those of other ethnic groups. [B]The high frequency of hemoglobin D Trait in this population is believed to reflect the large number of Indian wives brought home to England by British troops during Britain's long occupation of India.” - The Virginia Sickle Cell Awareness Program (VASCAP), http://views.vcu.edu/pediatrics/vascap/fast_facts/HemoD.PDF


Health Care Provider Hemoglobinopathy Fact Sheet
There are a number of hemoglobins termed Hemoglobin D (D-Los Angeles or D-Punjab, and D-Ibadan being the most common). These are all inherited variants of normal adult hemoglobin (hemoglobin A) and all have similar clinical implications. The genes for Hemoglobin D have the highest frequency among people of Asiatic Indian heritage. However, they are also found in people of European descent, especially British and Irish.

[Anusiya]

It's only natural, if not a bit smaller than expected presence. After all they were their colonies.

[StonyArabia]

It's only natural, if not a bit smaller than expected presence. After all they were their colonies.

Well the Hemglobin D is pretty much absent in other Europeans who are closely related to the British like the Nordics and the Germans, but they seem to have gotten it from India. As well Anglo-American and Anglo-Canadians don't have this trait unless they have recent British ancestry, or there ancestors came during the British empire, it's pretty rare among them however in the British it seems to be common after the Indo-Pakis, which in fact does suggest that it was the union of British males and Indo-paki females who married each other, and then their children getting whiter and whiter due to breeding with other ethnic British but kept that genetic trait that has it's origins in what is now Pakistan.

[Anusiya]

Example:

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Freddie-Mercury-mm01.jpg

[Sophie]

Example:

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Freddie-Mercury-mm01.jpg

Hes Parsi not a Punjabi lol. Punjabis look like this:

http://www.dreamstime.com/punjabi-man-thumb21454099.jpg

[Anusiya]

Hes Parsi not a Punjabi lol.

Is he? Wow, he sure could pass for half Indian.

[Sophie]

Is he? Wow, he sure could pass for half Indian.

You haven't seen many Indians then :D

[Óttar]

Hes Parsi not a Punjabi lol. Punjabis look like this:
There are not Parsi Punjabis ? :confused:

British soldiers from the Raj were encouraged to marry Indian women to calm themselves down, as the average British soldier from the Raj period was known for being a rowdy alcoholic, if not also developing an addiction to Opium.

Several British soldiers took Indian wives (how could they not have? Indian women are so beautiful ;)), but after say 1857 they were informed by the Crown that their marriages with Indian women would be declared invalid.

[Sophie]

There are not Parsi Punjabis ? :confused:

Punjabis and Parsis are two different ethnic groups. They have nothing to do with each other lol.

[StonyArabia]

British soldiers from the Raj were encouraged to marry Indian women to calm themselves down, as the average British soldier from the Raj period was known for being a rowdy alcoholic, if not also developing an addiction to Opium.

That's true it was highly encouraged at one time.


Several British soldiers took Indian wives (how could they not have? Indian women are so beautiful ;)), but after say 1857 they were informed by the Crown that their marriages with Indian women would be declared invalid.

There was a lot of romantic affairs between the British soliders and Indian women, and this continued even in the post Independence India. The Hemglobin D trait give us clues about this unique colonial relationship.

[Libertas]

Lord Coe, organiser of the London Olympics and an Olympic medal-winning runner in the past, has a maternal grandfather who is Indian.

[Óttar]

Punjabis and Parsis are two different ethnic groups. They have nothing to do with each other lol.
Parsees are an ethno-religious group. The Punjab is a region in northern India. There was a community of Parsees in the Punjab. The last member just died recently.

[Albion]

Well the Hemglobin D is pretty much absent in other Europeans who are closely related to the British like the Nordics and the Germans, but they seem to have gotten it from India. As well Anglo-American and Anglo-Canadians don't have this trait unless they have recent British ancestry, or there ancestors came during the British empire, it's pretty rare among them however in the British it seems to be common after the Indo-Pakis, which in fact does suggest that it was the union of British males and Indo-paki females who married each other, and then their children getting whiter and whiter due to breeding with other ethnic British but kept that genetic trait that has it's origins in what is now Pakistan.

None of those links worked for me by the way. Do we have any numbers or percentages? I wouldn't think it would be much over 2% of the population at the most and much of that could be from recent (post 1950s) immigration.

There were a few early immigrants from other parts of the empire to London, but it was only in very small numbers (apart from Ireland which sent over a lot of people).


British soldiers from the Raj were encouraged to marry Indian women to calm themselves down, as the average British soldier from the Raj period was known for being a rowdy alcoholic, if not also developing an addiction to Opium.

It was discouraged after a while, the administration felt that the Brits were getting too cosy with the Indians. After that they lived in little enclaves.


(how could they not have? Indian women are so beautiful )

No they're not. Only a few look nice and they don't really age well. Indians around here - thin men and fat women.


There was a lot of romantic affairs between the British soliders and Indian women, and this continued even in the post Independence India. The Hemglobin D trait give us clues about this unique colonial relationship.

Really it's just an early form of so-called "yellow fever" - those people that go seeking out Thai or Filipino women today. These guys in India seem like an earlier version of that.

[purple]

Freddy Mercury looks Italian to me. I think he can pass in Spain and Greece aswell.

[Albion]

Lord Coe, organiser of the London Olympics and an Olympic medal-winning runner in the past, has a maternal grandfather who is Indian.


Coe was born at Chiswick, London. His mother, Tina Angela Lal, died in London, in 2005, aged 75. She was half-Indian, born to a Punjabi father, Sardari Lal, and an English mother, Vera (née Swan).[6] His father, Peter Coe (né Percy N. Coe) died 9 August 2008, aged 88, while Coe was visiting Beijing.[7]

Wow, interesting how white he looks considering that. He'll be about 25% Indian then. I suppose physically it could dilute quicker because Indians are mainly Caucasians but with different phenotypes and skin tone.
Obviously though if there was a large enough Indian input into a population then it would completely change the physical appearance of future generations. I suppose it was on his mother's side too - males tend to look more like their fathers and females like their mothers.

[Óttar]

No they're not. Only a few look nice and they don't really age well. Indians around here - thin men and fat women.
I think there are a lot of beautiful middle aged Indian women, and Indian women in their forties.

[StonyArabia]

None of those links worked for me by the way. Do we have any numbers or percentages? I wouldn't think it would be much over 2% of the population at the most and much of that could be from recent (post 1950s) immigration.

Most of this admixture seem to have occurred in Colonial India and during those times. However it seems due to the union between the British males and Indo-Paki females, it's where this genetic trait that originated in Pakistan entered the Ethnic British gene pool. Well other Europeans who are very related to the British generally lack the trait. Some of it is recent indeed. Anglo-American/Canadians also lack it, which means the trait entered during the time Britain regined supreme over India. This of course does not mean all British carry admixture and the trait, but some of them do. However although the links might not work, some of the links do result in peer reviewed genetic or medical journals it has viewed in special manner, but in most sources on Hemglobin D would say it's originated in NorthWestern India or Pakistan, and it's found among the Europeans with the British and Irish only heighlighted, in general this trait is rather rare in Europeans.


There were a few early immigrants from other parts of the empire to London, but it was only in very small numbers (apart from Ireland which sent over a lot of people).


I see interesting according to the sources it was British Men and their Indian wives who migrated back to the Island and this was the outcome. Don't know much about the historical movement, but I just found the info to be interesting from a genetic prespective that is.

[Jack B]

Most of this admixture seem to have occurred in Colonial India and during those times. However it seems due to the union between the British males and Indo-Paki females, it's where this genetic trait that originated in Pakistan entered the Ethnic British gene pool. Well other Europeans who are very related to the British generally lack the trait. Some of it is recent indeed. Anglo-American/Canadians also lack it, which means the trait entered during the time Britain regined supreme over India. This of course does not mean all British carry admixture and the trait, but some of them do. However although the links might not work, some of the links do result in peer reviewed genetic or medical journals it has viewed in special manner, but in most sources on Hemglobin D would say it's originated in NorthWestern India or Pakistan, and it's found among the Europeans with the British and Irish only heighlighted, in general this trait is rather rare in Europeans.




I see interesting according to the sources it was British Men and their Indian wives who migrated back to the Island and this was the outcome. Don't know much about the historical movement, but I just found the info to be interesting from a genetic prespective that is.

How does this tie in with Ireland though?, Pakis/Indians have basically a non existent history here, they're still quite rare here and this is the age of multicuturalism. Perhaps British settlers in Northern Ireland had some of the mixture already when they arrived in Ulster? That's the only link I can think of.

[Libertas]

How does this tie in with Ireland though?, Pakis/Indians have basically a non existent history here, they're still quite rare here and this is the age of multicuturalism. Perhaps British settlers in Northern Ireland had some of the mixture already when they arrived in Ulster? That's the only link I can think of.

There were many Irish soldiers serving in the British army in India and elsewhere.

[Albion]

Most of this admixture seem to have occurred in Colonial India and during those times.

How do we know when it appeared?


Some of it is recent indeed. Anglo-American/Canadians also lack it, which means the trait entered during the time Britain regined supreme over India.

But there was still massive British migration to Canada, Australia and NZ from the end of WWII until the 80s and there still is a lot of British migration to Australia and NZ.
Really it's more likely just a minority of people that possess it, it could be from a handful of mixed race people and many of its possessors could be distantly related.

Its long term spread depends on the reproductive success of its carriers here.

I also think it's likely that it could just have been carried by Romani. There's a town around here that has a lot of them, a few people there clearly look like they have at least some distant Romani in them. It would be interesting to see its distribution in Britain and try and see if it correlates with Romani.


and it's found among the Europeans with the British and Irish only heighlighted, in general this trait is rather rare in Europeans.

It didn't, it said it's slightly more common in British and Irish than in other Europeans.


I see interesting according to the sources it was British Men and their Indian wives who migrated back to the Island and this was the outcome.

I think this is just an assumption - the British controlled India so it must be via British men bringing back Indian wives. Indian mistresses seems more likely anyway.

[Jack B]

There were many Irish soldiers serving in the British army in India and elsewhere.

That would explain Irish genes in India but not vice versa, I suppose some could have brought back Indian wives but I'm not aware of any instances where I have heard of that happening, and it probably would have seemed even stranger back then, it's possible though of course. Certainly can't see it leading to an effect in the entire gene pool though.

[Albion]

Here are some interesting haemoglobin distribution maps:

D - the type being discussed:

http://mvc.bioweb.dcccd.edu/weblinks/images/1994d.gif
That distribution in Denmark or Southern Europe wasn't mentioned. Those articles are really just trying to promote race mixing by suggesting that people are already mixed race in some of the purest populations in Europe.

Other types:

C

http://mvc.bioweb.dcccd.edu/weblinks/images/1961cd1.gif

E

http://mvc.bioweb.dcccd.edu/weblinks/images/1961ed1.gif

S

http://mvc.bioweb.dcccd.edu/weblinks/images/1994s.gif

[Jack B]

That distribution in Denmark or Southern Europe wasn't mentioned. Those articles are really just trying to promote race mixing by suggesting that people are already mixed race in some of the purest populations in Europe.

Yeah I think that is the heart of it.

[Albion]

Hemoglobin D Trait


What is Hemoglobin?

Hemoglobin is the main ingredient in red blood cells. Hemoglobin helps red blood cells carry oxygen from the lungs to other parts of the body. Normal red blood cells have hemoglobin A. People with hemoglobin D trait have red blood cells that have normal hemoglobin A and an abnormal hemoglobin. The abnormal hemoglobin is called hemoglobin D. People with hemoglobin D trait have slightly more hemoglobin A than hemoglobin D. People with Hemoglobin D trait do not have health problems related to having the trait.

People with hemoglobin D trait do not have Hemoglobin D disease or sickle cell disease. They cannot develop these diseases later in life. They can pass hemoglobin D trait to their children.

How is Hemoglobin D Trait Inherited?

Hemoglobin D trait is inherited from one's parents, like hair color or eye color. If one parent has hemoglobin D trait and the other parent has normal hemoglobin, there is a 50 percent (1 in 2) chance with each pregnancy of having a child who has hemoglobin D trait. These are the possible outcomes with each pregnancy.
50 percent (1 in 2) chance of having a child with hemoglobin D trait
50 percent (1 in 2) chance of having a child without hemoglobin D trait


It sounds to me like this would impact upon their breeding potential to some extent and limit the amount entering the population.
It's likely to increase in the future now though "thanks" to Pakistani and Indian immigration. :(

[Libertas]

No historic mixture, whether real or putative, justifies the current Third World invasions of western nations.

[Albion]

No historic mixture, whether real or putative, justifies the current Third World invasions of western nations.

Exactly.

[Loki]

I think it's a bit of a jump in logic to assume that this article was written with the explicit purpose to further some multicultural agenda. That is paranoia in the highest!

[StonyArabia]

How do we know when it appeared?

The mutation appeared in what is now Pakistan/NorthWestern India, it's almost an exlcusive to them. However it entered other population through intermixture.


But there was still massive British migration to Canada, Australia and NZ from the end of WWII until the 80s and there still is a lot of British migration to Australia and NZ.

That's true.



Really it's more likely just a minority of people that possess it, it could be from a handful of mixed race people and many of its possessors could be distantly related.

Yes that would be the case, it's the mixed race people who passed into the ethnic British gene pool.


Its long term spread depends on the reproductive success of its carriers here.

Indeed.


I also think it's likely that it could just have been carried by Romani. There's a town around here that has a lot of them, a few people there clearly look like they have at least some distant Romani in them. It would be interesting to see its distribution in Britain and try and see if it correlates with Romani.

Yes the Romani are from what is now Punjab where the this trait appeared, so they could be indeed responsible for it.



It didn't, it said it's slightly more common in British and Irish than in other Europeans.

In Europeans it's pretty rare in general, but most of the articles say that it occurs especially in the British and Irish. The trait does occur in others part of Europe, but it seems they have also had some contact with India via trade or even brief colonization. In general it's a very rare trait in White ethnic Europeans.


I think this is just an assumption - the British controlled India so it must be via British men bringing back Indian wives. Indian mistresses seems more likely anyway.

It's most likely they were mistresses indeed, but saying wives often sound better, especially when dealing with a colonial relationship.


I think it's a bit of a jump in logic to assume that this article was written with the explicit purpose to further some multicultural agenda. That is paranoia in the highest!

Indeed, the article is just pointing the historical circumistance why this trait is more common in the British and Irish than in other Europeans, they often state especially. Instead it's rather trying to give a scientific fact for parents or those who have this trait to understand the reason why, and it seemed rather pretty netural and apolitical since it was written from a medical genetic prespective.

[Albion]

I think it's a bit of a jump in logic to assume that this article was written with the explicit purpose to further some multicultural agenda. That is paranoia in the highest!

I'm not suggesting some multiculturalist conspiracy theory here. It seems that the authors of these articles put a lot of emphasis on some negligible link between Britain and India though as if to fit the British into their multicultural view of the world.

[Albion]

Yes that would be the case, it's the mixed race people who passed into the ethnic British gene pool.

I found a few numbers in a article and got the percentage of 0.01% for people who possessed the trait out of a study of 7,500.
If we say Britain has 60 million people (it has more, but there's a sizeable immigrant population to discount) then the number of persons possessing the trait works out at around 6,000. That's about the size of a very small town in England.

However it really depends on the breeding success of its carriers. Another question that comes to light is if it is of 18th century origin then just who were the sorts of people who were doing the race mixing? I doubt they'd have been anyone high up, more like the cannon fodder that had to live around the Indians.

That earlier map I posted seems to be of D in total, I hadn't taken into account the Punjab variant of it. However it raises further questions as to how what appears to be an African mutation ended up in much of the world and then in Pakistan where it mutated again.


Yes the Romani are from what is now Punjab where the this trait appeared, so they could be indeed responsible for it.

I'm starting to doubt that myself. If they carried a lot of it then it would be common in Romania and Bulgaria where there are a few people with distant Romani admixture (they deny it, but we all know it's true. A lot of it is so distant and negligible that it has been bred out so to speak, so it doesn't really change them in my eyes at least).


Here's another table with a larger study population for Britain. Note that the British study included far more people than any of the others and still only found 7 people with the trait whereas the small Dutch study found 1 out of 991.
That would make the Dutch figure 0.10% of the population and the British one (7 out of 36,826 people studied) 0.01%. However since only one person in the Netherlands was found to posses it it could be purely coincidental.

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/6070/41059373.jpg

The Dutch didn't have much involvement in India. It might be via Ceylon (Sri Lanka) though, they controlled that until we took it.
I can't explain the Scandinavian occurrences, maybe those families moved from elsewhere in Europe. It's a shame there isn't any details available for France, they controlled areas of India too. The absence of it from Portugal is interesting too. They controlled Goa and some other enclaves along the coast - I would have thought they'd have had at least a few individuals with it.


In Europeans it's pretty rare in general, but most of the articles say that it occurs especially in the British and Irish.

That's only because the British study is disproportionately larger than the other ones. The British controlled India so we should expect more of it in Britain, but it's rather unscientific to compare such a large British test population with the others which are much smaller.


It's most likely they were mistresses indeed, but saying wives often sound better, especially when dealing with a colonial relationship.

Nah, "wives" is just being polite.


Indeed, the article is just pointing the historical circumistance why this trait is more common in the British and Irish than in other Europeans, they often state especially. Instead it's rather trying to give a scientific fact for parents or those who have this trait to understand the reason why, and it seemed rather pretty netural and apolitical since it was written from a medical genetic prespective.

I don't think so, some people love nothing more than to suggest we're all mixed no matter what their profession. There are a lot of Indians in medicine and a lot of white people that work with them and would love nothing more than us all to be admixed with Indians. Otherwise it seems odd as to why such people would even care about its origin rather than just its distribution.

By the way, here's that PDF (http://jmg.bmj.com/content/11/4/341.full.pdf) I've been reading.

[Loki]

I'm not suggesting some multiculturalist conspiracy theory here. It seems that the authors of these articles put a lot of emphasis on some negligible link between Britain and India though as if to fit the British into their multicultural view of the world.

But they are right. Britain had a long history with India, and it is true that intermarriage took place. There are also still so-called Anglo-Indians who are half Indian, half British. But many or most of them had integrated into main society long ago.

[Albion]

But they are right. Britain had a long history with India, and it is true that intermarriage took place. There are also still so-called Anglo-Indians who are half Indian, half British. But many or most of them had integrated into main society long ago.

Yes, I've already proved them right above. But 6,000 in a population of over 60 million? Why is this even considered important???

[StonyArabia]

Quite interesting how colonialism lead to Racemixing.

[Longbowman]

There are not Parsi Punjabis ? :confused:

British soldiers from the Raj were encouraged to marry Indian women to calm themselves down, as the average British soldier from the Raj period was known for being a rowdy alcoholic, if not also developing an addiction to Opium.

Several British soldiers took Indian wives (how could they not have? Indian women are so beautiful ;)), but after say 1857 they were informed by the Crown that their marriages with Indian women would be declared invalid.

Before 1857 the East India Company was in charge.

My ancestors did this. It worked out OK.

Actually I know a lot of part Indians - 1/2, 1/8, 1/16, another 1/16 (me).

[Grace O'Malley]

Interesting but I can say this link is pre-Colonial. It is something old and possibly related to Gedrosia or similar. Possibly related to R1b and its spread from the Steppes and similar type ancestry from this region in both Britain and India. I think to say that it is due to British Empire is inaccurate. Gedroisa is higher in the British Isles than surrounding areas and appears to be linked to R1b and the Steppes. I think the British Isles has kept some of these components better than others due to being island populations. There is no way that Irish / British would have this due to colonial links with India otherwise we'd be showing some links to the sub-continent in our AC on 23andMe and Family Finder and also it would require a huge amount of interaction with Indians which just didn't occur. I have high Gedrosia like other Irish and this appears linked to high ANE.

[Grace O'Malley]

Interesting but I can say this link is pre-Colonial. It is something old and possibly related to Gedrosia or similar. Possibly related to R1b and its spread from the Steppes and similar type ancestry from this region in both Britain and India. I think to say that it is due to British Empire is inaccurate. Gedroisa is higher in the British Isles than surrounding areas and appears to be linked to R1b and the Steppes. I think the British Isles has kept some of these components better than others due to being island populations. There is no way that Irish / British would have this due to colonial links with India otherwise we'd be showing some links to the sub-continent in our AC on 23andMe and Family Finder and also it would require a huge amount of interaction with Indians which just didn't occur. I have high Gedrosia like other Irish and this appears linked to high ANE.

Just looked back and it is also in Denmark and Southern Europe. Just adds weight to what I've written.

[Grace O'Malley]

The more I read about this I don't see any obvious link.

There are two groups of Haemoglobin D, the DPunjab and DNon-Punjab. It is one of the many hundreds of unusual haemoglobins found in humans. It is not infectious and it is not catching.

Where a person has inherited Haemoglobin A from one parent and Haemoglobin D from the other, they have Haemoglobin D trait, commonly written Hb AD; this individual is considered a ‘healthy carrier’.
•1 in every 100 Pakistanis and Indians have Haemoglobin D Trait
•1 in every 1000 White Northern Europeans have Haemoglobin D Trait

Haemoglobin D is just one of the many hundreds of unusual haemoglobins found in humans. It is not infectious and it is not catching.

The person with Haemoglobin D trait does not have an illness, will not experience any symptoms and his or her health is not affected; this is why a person with Haemoglobin D trait will not know that they carry this unusual haemoglobin unless they have had a special blood test or when they have a child who is later found to have a disease which has been inherited from both parents.

In terms of the carrier state both types of Haemoglobin D trait (Hb ADPunjab and Hb ADNon-Punjab) are the same in that they do not affect the individual’s health. However in terms of their offspring the type of Haemoglobin D is important, when combined with the haemoglobin that their partner passes on to their children; this will determine whether their children can inherit a serious disease or not (see further below).

http://www.sickle-thal.nwlh.nhs.uk/Blood/HaemoglobinDNonPunjabAndDPunjab.aspx

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Interesting but I can say this link is pre-Colonial. It is something old and possibly related to Gedrosia or similar. Possibly related to R1b and its spread from the Steppes and similar type ancestry from this region in both Britain and India. I think to say that it is due to British Empire is inaccurate. Gedroisa is higher in the British Isles than surrounding areas and appears to be linked to R1b and the Steppes. I think the British Isles has kept some of these components better than others due to being island populations. There is no way that Irish / British would have this due to colonial links with India otherwise we'd be showing some links to the sub-continent in our AC on 23andMe and Family Finder and also it would require a huge amount of interaction with Indians which just didn't occur. I have high Gedrosia like other Irish and this appears linked to high ANE.

Totally ridiculous. Just like how it's ridiculous you claim there is no similarity between basque and irish, when your mtdna is common to both (though it may come from sephardic jews in north irish).

[Grace O'Malley]

Totally ridiculous. Just like how it's ridiculous you claim there is no similarity between basque and irish, when your mtdna is common to both (though it may come from sephardic jews in north irish).

Would you just mind limiting yourself to the actual subject instead of personal attacks. My mt-dna is common in all of Northern Europe. It most likely came from the Middle East eons ago but it is J1c3f and that particular subclade appears common in many Northern Europeans in particular. You can research it if you are so inclined. Not that I really care anyway. But just stick to the topic Mr Melonhead and let's just show some maturity.

[Grace O'Malley]

Would you just mind limiting yourself to the actual subject instead of personal attacks. My mt-dna is common in all of Northern Europe. It most likely came from the Middle East eons ago but it is J1c3f and that particular subclade appears common in many Northern Europeans in particular. You can research it if you are so inclined. Not that I really care anyway. But just stick to the topic Mr Melonhead and let's just show some maturity.

If you think we all have recent Indian ancestry then show how this is possible and that it wouldn't show in our dna if it was due to colonial reasons?

Here is my result from FTDNA.

http://i61.tinypic.com/10i8ih3.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Totally ridiculous. Just like how it's ridiculous you claim there is no similarity between basque and irish, when your mtdna is common to both (though it may come from sephardic jews in north irish).

I wasn't aware J1c3f is common in the Basque. Do you have a link for that?

As for J and its various subclades it is common in all European populations

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml

[Grace O'Malley]

Totally ridiculous. Just like how it's ridiculous you claim there is no similarity between basque and irish, when your mtdna is common to both (though it may come from sephardic jews in north irish).

Regarding Basque the Irish are quite distant to them so no I don't think there is any particularly close relationship. There are other European populations with a lot closer relationship with the Basque people.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-utJBIHUwpXU/Tf9ZMlhE3iI/AAAAAAAAAls/7XG2ZV3Wz3g/s1600/mtDNA_J1c.jpg



In the case of J1c, it is mentioned in the text that a sublineage J1c2d, defined by a transition in site 16366, is common among Basques and that this particular lineage has also been found in some other populations, specifically the Irish (McEvoy et al. 2004).

Besides these two, the most common mtDNA lineages among Basques are H1, H3 and V.

[Grace O'Malley]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-utJBIHUwpXU/Tf9ZMlhE3iI/AAAAAAAAAls/7XG2ZV3Wz3g/s1600/mtDNA_J1c.jpg

Well before you said I was middle-eastern now it's Basque :). If you notice that map doesn't even show that is it common in Ireland where it is at least 11% so how accurate is that map?

[Grace O'Malley]

Anyway I'm not going to discuss this with you because your theories are odd and mostly just your own. So we will just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Would you just mind limiting yourself to the actual subject instead of personal attacks. My mt-dna is common in all of Northern Europe. It most likely came from the Middle East eons ago but it is J1c3f and that particular subclade appears common in many Northern Europeans in particular. You can research it if you are so inclined. Not that I really care anyway. But just stick to the topic Mr Melonhead and let's just show some maturity.

It's not a personal attack. You never see an Irish american with bad teeth, it's common in northern ireland from what I can tell. You insist you are super irish and that all british isles is all the same. You say this even in a thread about a study that says that there's tons of regional differences. UK is not all the same, and the people in ireland are mostly not ethnically Irish at all. How many of your grandparents spoke irish as their first language? Exactly.


If you think we all have recent Indian ancestry then show how this is possible and that it wouldn't show in our dna if it was due to colonial reasons?

Here is my result from FTDNA.

http://i61.tinypic.com/10i8ih3.png

What's that to do with anything? The thread is about mixing with India. That obviously did happen. This hemoglobin form doesn't really exist in the rest of europe, so it rules out your idea of 'gedrosia component' which probably doesn't have to do with gedrosia originally, and which for sure has nothing to do with that part of india where this comes from.

It's like you don't even regard reality when you say stuff, then if I correct you you just ignore that too without refuting it.

[Grace O'Malley]

It's not a personal attack. You never see an Irish american with bad teeth, it's common in northern ireland from what I can tell. You insist you are super irish and that all british isles is all the same. You say this even in a thread about a study that says that there's tons of regional differences. UK is not all the same, and the people in ireland are mostly not ethnically Irish at all. How many of your grandparents spoke irish as their first language? Exactly.



What's that to do with anything? The thread is about mixing with India. That obviously did happen. This hemoglobin form doesn't really exist in the rest of europe, so it rules out your idea of 'gedrosia component' which probably doesn't have to do with gedrosia originally, and which for sure has nothing to do with that part of india where this comes from.

It's like you don't even regard reality when you say stuff, then if I correct you you just ignore that too without refuting it.

I'm fully Irish and have been for as long as records exist. The furthest back I've been able to go is the late 1700s. My brother's ydna is also extensively tested and goes back to Northern Ireland to one of the sons of Niall of the Nine Hostages. So I'm fairly confident of who I am as far as ancestry goes so I'm just not that interested in an argument. I can't take someone serious who actually accused me of not being Irish so I just prefer not to comment further.

[Dombra]

I'm fully Irish and have been for as long as records exist. The furthest back I've been able to go is the late 1700s.

That is well after the Irish slave trade :mmmm: You do not have records before that in Ireland because your forefathers lived in Scotland or England!

[Grace O'Malley]

That is well after the Irish slave trade :mmmm: You do not have records before that in Ireland because your forefathers lived in Scotland or England!

Well judging by the ydna my ancestors are solidly Irish so I don't think so. Also surnames are a fairly good indication and nearly all my surnames are Gaelic Irish. I do agree that originally the Irish came via Scotland and England. Irish records are very difficult to get before the 1800s but hopefully with the Church records all being released online in about July possibly people like me might be able to go a bit further back.

[Nurzat]

maybe Britons got it from their Gypsies

[Prisoner Of Ice]

maybe Britons got it from their Gypsies

British gypsies are from ireland.

[Catkin]

Well judging by the ydna my ancestors are solidly Irish so I don't think so. Also surnames are a fairly good indication and nearly all my surnames are Gaelic Irish. I do agree that originally the Irish came via Scotland and England. Irish records are very difficult to get before the 1800s but hopefully with the Church records all being released online in about July possibly people like me might be able to go a bit further back.

Oh really, that's great! :) Yes, it's currently really hard to trace your ancestry in Ireland.

[Grace O'Malley]

Haemoglobin D is relatively uncommon anyway and I don't have it. I'd like to see some percentages from a reputable source.

[Grace O'Malley]

Anyway the PoBI study has just been released so there is no need to argue about the ancestry of the British.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

My aunt is mormon so they put a lot of effort into tracing so they can postumously baptise ancestors, but you do have to write a lot of letters. Basically you tend to go up x generations then you find either someone semi-famous and you can just copy what's known, or trace to some small town and figure they were probably there "forever".

[Longbowman]

British gypsies are from ireland.

We have Romani as well as Travellers, actually. Chaplin was 1/16 Romani.

[Graham]

Not sure if it was mention.

Billy Connolly had been in the programme 'who do you think you are'.. Which goes through the family tree. Connolly unknowing had an Indian ancestor from the times of the Empire through an Irish side of the family.

Found it interesting.

[Grace O'Malley]

Not sure if it was mention.

Billy Connolly had been in the programme 'who do you think you are'.. Which goes through the family tree. Connolly unknowing had an Indian ancestor from the times of the Empire through an Irish side of the family.

Found it interesting.

It would likely be quite easy to trace as it wasn't that long ago in the scheme of things.

[Longbowman]

It would likely be quite easy to trace as it wasn't that long ago in the scheme of things.

You obviously don't have one. Most people don't. But they're not that unusual.

[Graham]

Here was the episode in question. Reveals a good bit of history.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbE3mhvlm0A

[Grace O'Malley]

Here was the episode in question. Reveals a good bit of history.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbE3mhvlm0A

That was really fascinating. The irony of Irishmen fighting to keep India British but that's life for you. A great episode. I think I'll watch some of the others.

[Óttar]

That was really fascinating. The irony of Irishmen fighting to keep India British but that's life for you. A great episode. I think I'll watch some of the others.
46% of the British army was Irish. In India, Irish were known as Rishtis by the Indians. They were considered almost like a caste group because they were mostly all soldiers and almost all of them were Catholics who ate together.

[Black Wolf]

Quite interesting how colonialism lead to Racemixing.

It is and it makes sense. Humans are going to have sex with other humans no matter where they meet or come from if the opportunity is there.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Hemoglobin D is 3% in Punjab region. Which is only about 1/20 the size of India. It's now 0.1% in England and Ireland (but absent in white americans). So how much mixing would you have to do to get this effect?

LOL using that kind of logic half of UK would need to be Indian or pakistani. Obviously that's not the case, at least not yet.

Maybe a better assumption is that India as a whole has maybe 1% hemoglobin D. That means about 10% of UK is Indian.

Based on their looks this seems about right. Studies always pick people in remote villages whose family on both sides goes back to the same village a long time. If you chose out random people you would get another story. If you sampled from London of course you would not think it had ever been a white country.

[Longbowman]

Hemoglobin D is 3% in Punjab region. Which is only about 1/20 the size of India. It's now 0.1% in England and Ireland (but absent in white americans). So how much mixing would you have to do to get this effect?

LOL using that kind of logic half of UK would need to be Indian or pakistani. Obviously that's not the case, at least not yet.

Maybe a better assumption is that India as a whole has maybe 1% hemoglobin D. That means about 10% of UK is Indian.

Based on their looks this seems about right. Studies always pick people in remote villages whose family on both sides goes back to the same village a long time. If you chose out random people you would get another story. If you sampled from London of course you would not think it had ever been a white country.

Just the media overhyping and misinterpreting or midunderstanding something as usual. Let's hope it wasn't deliberate.

BTW, London is still 60% white. Cities like Birmingham and Leicester are far less so.

[Suleiman Arian]

Hemoglobin D
http://www.memes.at/faces/troll_crazy.jpg