What Haplogroup did Blue eyes originate with?

[The Exiled King]

When blue eyes came about as a mutation from brown eyes, what Haplogroup do you think it first came from?

My guess is either I1, R1b, or R1a, still that leaves N1c. Blue eyes are found in the highest amount in Balto-Finnic populations, ie. Finland, Estonia.

This makes for an interesting debate since Blue eyes are practically an Indo-European trait but yet the place(s) with the most of it on earth are mainly Uralic peoples.

[Annihilus]

Since it is not a mutation on the Y it is a stupid question.

[The Exiled King]

Yes I know that it's not a mutation on the Y-Chromosome but the mutation of the OCA2 gene occurred in a single person that eventually spread it out over Europe.

[Annihilus]

Yes but can easlily jump between haplogroups ( y and mtdna) before it explodes, so really there is no way in knowing it.

[The Exiled King]

Theres no way of knowing it currently but thats why it's up for discussion and debate. It is known as a scientific fact that it started from one person.

[beaver]

This makes for an interesting debate since Blue eyes are practically an Indo-European trait
Blue eyes - I1
Indo-European language - R1a1
Let's begin to discuss all from the Neolit

[The Exiled King]

Actually the places with the highest frequency of Blue Eyes does fit pretty nicely with the extent of Mesolithic Haplogroup I1 territory in Europe but at the same time it fits pretty much equally as well with R1a.

http://thesocietypages.org/graphicsociology/files/2009/01/westernparadigm_blue_eye_color_map.jpg

[Mans not hot]

Actually the places with the highest frequency of Blue Eyes does fit pretty nicely with the extent of Mesolithic Haplogroup I1 territory in Europe but at the same time it fits pretty much equally as well with R1a.

http://thesocietypages.org/graphicsociology/files/2009/01/westernparadigm_blue_eye_color_map.jpg
That map is ridiculous. Judging by this map, Southern Poles are basically same as Greeks in terms of pigmentation. :picard1:

[Midori]

That map is ridiculous. Judging by this map, Southern Poles are basically same as Greeks in terms of pigmentation. :picard1:

And Bosnians have a higher % of light eyes than Southern Poles :laugh:

[The Exiled King]

That map is ridiculous. Judging by this map, Southern Poles are basically same as Greeks in terms of pigmentation. :picard1:

Not necessarily, those brown areas indicate it's within 20-49%.

[beaver]

but at the same time it fits pretty much equally as well with R1a.
dont fit, I had hard time explaining this to Russian nordicists, they would want all and right now - IE language + blue eyes. To be cooler than the uncle Gebbels.

[Annihilus]

If I had to put a haplo to IE I would say R1b and the haplo that spread light eyes I really don't know.

[Mans not hot]

Not necessarily, those brown areas indicate it's within 20-49%.
South Poles should be pretty much the same as Central Poles. I can say that this correlates with my own observance when being there (Warsaw, Central Poland). The differences aren't very large at all.

[beaver]

http://s48.radikal.ru/i121/1210/a4/69f6cf6014b3.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s017.radikal.ru/i406/1210/e0/06c2b730b4be.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)

[The Exiled King]

South Poles should be pretty much the same as Central Poles. I can say that this correlates with my own observance when being there (Warsaw, Central Poland). The differences aren't very large at all.

Well the map can't be perfect lol.

[Insuperable]

Haplogroup I1 and N1c make up only small percentge of totall y-dna haplogroups in Europe so I do not think it has anything to do with them.

My guess is that colors spread with either R1b's or R1a's carriers or both.

[Prince Carlo]

Certain subclades of R1b, R1a and I1/I2.

[safinator]

I1 and I2b

[beaver]

My guess is that colors spread with either R1b's or R1a's carriers or both.
This is not a matter of guesses, this is a matter of strong scientific facts. The problem is strong enough but this is not "key questions in the relativity".

[Pallantides]

I'm leaning towards N1c and I1

[Drax13]

Blue eyes (and other light eyes color) are related to Indo-Europeans, so R1a and R1b:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color#Blue

"The authors concluded that the mutation may have arisen in a single individual probably living in the northwestern part of the Black Sea region (around modern Romania) 6,000–10,000 years ago during the Neolithic revolution.[30][31][32]"

"Y-Chromosome DNA testing performed on ancient Scythian skeletons dating to the Bronze and Iron Ages in the Siberian Krasnoyarsk region found that 10 out of the 11 subjects carried Y-DNA R1a1 (most commonly found today in Eastern Europe, Afghanistan and the northern Indian Subcontinent), with blue or green eye color and light hair common, suggesting mostly European origin of that particular population.[38"

For what I have read, haplogroup I is related to cro-magnon from Europe, and they were tan with brown eyes and hairs....the IE were has a huge numbers in comparaison to them (because of their agriculture and their weapons), so it's for that today Europeans look like that and speak the IE language (sorry for my english).

[Dacul]

They originated near Black Sea around 6000-10000 years ago and it was some I haplogroup I think.R1b was not in Europe at that time,neither R1A1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color#Blue
"The authors concluded that the mutation may have arisen in a single individual probably living in the northwestern part of the Black Sea region (around modern Romania) 6,000–10,000 years ago during the Neolithic revolution."

[Drax13]

There are 6000 years ago, the IE were already around the black sea (Ukraine if I remember correctly), for the relation between light eyes color and IE (so haplogroup R1a/b) there are this indication in the wikipedia page:

"Y-Chromosome DNA testing performed on ancient Scythian skeletons dating to the Bronze and Iron Ages in the Siberian Krasnoyarsk region found that 10 out of the 11 subjects carried Y-DNA R1a1 , with blue or green eye color and light hair common, suggesting mostly European origin of that particular population.[38"

The haplogroup I is absent among scythians and tokharians, but they has blues eyes with color hairs...another example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

"Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a Y-chromosome haplogroup and one Haplogroup C (Y-DNA)(xC3). mtDNA haplogroups of nine individuals assigned to the same Andronovo horizon and region were as follows: U4 (2 individuals), U2e, U5a1, Z, T1, T4, H, and K2b."

"90 % of the bronze age period mtDNA haplogroups were of west Eurasian origin and the study determined that at least 60 % of the individuals overall (out of the 26 bronze and iron age human remains' samples of the study that could be tested) had light hair and blue or green eyes."

Blue eyes (and light color in general) are related to the same ancestor, the haplogroup "I" was absent among the scythians and othe other Indo-Europeans (before they have invaded the Europe).

[Albion]

Personally I think it developed in women first and then spread to any male offspring and eventually became common in some areas that way.
Y-DNA haplogroups cover too large an area to really link to it. Besides, it's not like the whole haplogroup suddenly started being born with blue eyes. It must have been a mutation in one individual and then spread throughout the rest of the population over a process of many centuries. Just imagine though if that person had been killed off as Albinos are in Africa.... would blue eyes have ever developed and spread as they did? Would the mutation happen again? :icon_ask:
So as studies seem to suggest, it probably spread via natural selection. Like I said though, it probably arose in females first.
If it did occur in males then it could be anything - even such haplogroups as G2a or J - all it would take was one individual with a positive mutation and it would spread. It doesn't matter how poorly represented the haplogroup of the person is today, since most people would only be indirect descendants and thus not belong to the same haplogroup anyway.




Blue eyes (and light color in general) are related to the same ancestor, the haplogroup "I" was absent among the scythians and othe other Indo-Europeans (before they have invaded the Europe).

This is what I suspect. Red hair could have developed in some R1b people as they headed towards NW Europe though.

[Dacul]

R1B was no way present in Europe 6000 years ago,same with R1A1.
Scythians came in Europe much later than 6k-10k years ago.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/530361/Scythian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians
They are mentioned first 800 years BC,not 6k years BC.

[Albion]

R1B was no way present in Europe 6000 years ago,same with R1A1.
Scythians came in Europe much later than 6k-10k years ago.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/530361/Scythian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians
They are mentioned first 800 years BC,not 6k years BC.

In my opinion:

Mesolithic - Haplogroup I
Neolithic - N1 moves into North EastEurope, G2a becomes dominant in much of Central Europe and Southern Europe is more mixed, with J1, J2 and E all contributing.
Late neolithic to early Bronze Age - R1b enters Europe from Anatolia. It travels through SE Europe where advanced cultures mean it can't dominate. It travels along the Danube and overland to NW Europe, Iberia and Italy. R1a arrives from the Ukrainian steppes in a similar fashion but spreads into Eastern Europe with the Corded Ware. R1b associated with the Bell Beaker in Britain.

Neolithic societies were more advanced in some respects over R1a and R1b ones, but those two groups had superior weapons, farming techniques, technology and societal structure. This enabled them to basically have better breeding potential than the existing mix of Neolithic and Mesolithic peoples, allowing them to dominate much of Europe.
Southern Europe is more diverse in haplogroup makeup because R1b and R1a couldn't dominate in the same way because they encountered more advanced civilisations.

[Drax13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

The Yamna culture (Ukrainian: Ямна культура, Russian: Ямная культура, "Pit [Grave] Culture", from Russian/Ukrainian яма, "pit") is a late copper age/early Bronze Age culture of the Southern Bug/Dniester/Ural region (the Pontic steppe), dating to the 36th–23rd centuries BC. The name also appears in English as Pit Grave Culture or Ochre Grave Culture.

The culture was predominantly nomadic, with some agriculture practiced near rivers and a few hillforts.[1]

The Yamna culture was preceded by the Sredny Stog culture, Khvalynsk culture and Dnieper-Donets culture, while succeeded by the Catacomb culture and the Srubna culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog_culture

he Sredny Stog culture (named after the Dnieper river islet of Seredny Stih where it was first located, rendered as "Sredny Stog" in Russian) dates from the 4500-3500 BC. It was situated across the Dnieper river in its both shores with sporadic settlements to the west and east[1]

Expert Dmytro Telegin has divided Sredny Stog into two distinct phases. Phase II (ca. 4000-3500 BC) using corded ware pottery which may have originated, and stone battle-axes of the type later associated with expanding Indo-European cultures to the West. Most notably, it has perhaps the earliest evidence of horse domestication (in phase II), with finds suggestive of cheek-pieces (psalia).

In the context of the modified Kurgan hypothesis of Marija Gimbutas, this pre-kurgan archaeological culture could represent the Urheimat (homeland) of the Proto-Indo-European language. The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded to the west replacing Sredny Stog to in its full geographical extent, coming in direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."


Romanul, you can see with these links that the IE were already present in East Europe...The Scythians were not the first IE, there are just the "indo-aryan" lineage of the IE group (who have various lineage like Germanic etc...).

@Albion, yes the blue eyes are from Maternal lineage, but it seem extremely (and exclusively) related to the IE migration, so I guess we can easily say that it's related to the haplogroup R1a/b.

[Albion]

@Albion, yes the blue eyes are from Maternal lineage, but it seem extremely (and exclusively) related to the IE migration, so I guess we can easily say that it's related to the haplogroup R1a/b.

Then why doesn't it match the distribution of R1a and R1b? It would have to have developed as some R1a or b were reaching NW Europe and thus not have been present in those still on the steppes until back migrations occurred.

[Drax13]

Then why doesn't it match the distribution of R1a and R1b? It would have to have developed as some R1a or b were reaching NW Europe and thus not have been present in those still on the steppes until back migrations occurred.

Don't match the R1a and b ? Coud you give me an example please ? For what I have seen, that match pefectly with the IE migration...and it's not my theory, I have read that various times (see the link I have posted).

[Albion]

Don't match the R1a and b ? Coud you give me an example please ? For what I have seen, that match pefectly with the IE migration...and it's not my theory, I have read that various times (see the link I have posted).

Well since it is most common in Scandinavia and not nearly as common throughout the rest of R1a and R1b ranges, I think it is safe to say it is unrelated to them.

[Drax13]

Well since it is most common in Scandinavia and not nearly as common throughout the rest of R1a and R1b ranges, I think it is safe to say it is unrelated to them.

No, blue eyes is very common among most Europeans not just in Scandinavia, I live in France and most peoples have light eyes, there are also the slavic population, Russia, Poland etc...now like you have said yourself in your previous message, the genetic impact (and the physical influence) is far more important among a place like the North Europe (with a weak population) than in the Mediterranean (or in Asia), with a strong culture and a big (in numbers) population...

also, for the physical impact, everything will depend if will take their own wives with them, or if they will take wives among the non IE population.

for example, from Eupedia:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#R1a

"Maternal lineages in South Asia are, however, overwhelmingly pre-Indo-European. For instance, India has over 75% of "native" mtDNA M and R lineages and 10% of East Asian lineages. In the residual 15% of haplogroups, approximately half are of Middle Eastern origin. Only about 7 or 8% could be of "Russian" (Pontic-Caspian steppe) origin, mostly in the form of haplogroup U2 and W (although the origin of U2 is still debated). European mtDNA lineages are much more common in Central Asia though, and even in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. This suggests that the Indo-European invasion of India was conducted mostly by men through war, and the first major settlement of women was in northern Pakistan, western India (Punjab to Gujarat) and northern India (Uttar Pradesh), where haplogroups U2 and W are the most common."

You can't have the same result with a wife or a man with dark skin mixed with a blond white man or woman, than with two Whites peoples...that logical, and that easy to explain that the IE invasion don't have always the same physical impact.


You can see also in my previous links that among old IE population (Scythians, Tokharians etc...), according scientific research, most of IE were light eyes and hair, imo if it was not directly related to have, you will don't have a huge numbers like 60% or 10 men of 11 if the IE women were not the ones originally with these blues eyes, specially when we know that light eyes colors are supposed recessive....these numbers seem pretty close to the numbers of North Europeans countries...I don't think it's just a coincidence...

there are also the fact that blue eyes have appeared in the same place (the Black Sea) that the homeland of IE, that don't let the place of lot speculation imho.;)

[Benacer]

Late neolithic to early Bronze Age - R1b enters Europe from Anatolia. It travels through SE Europe where advanced cultures mean it can't dominate. It travels along the Danube and overland to NW Europe, Iberia and Italy. R1a arrives from the Ukrainian steppes in a similar fashion but spreads into Eastern Europe with the Corded Ware. R1b associated with the Bell Beaker in Britain.

A bit off-topic, but I've been reading about this today, and I'm quite confused about some things. Do you think R1b entered western Europe pacifically? Some sources claim that the Bell-beaker culture began in Portugal, so it couldn't have been an east-to-west expansion, but they're definitely related to R1b. Did they just initially acquire it by mingling with the IE neighbors? Were the natives mostly broad-faced cromagnoids (and variants) and the R1b/R1a foreigners narrow-faced? And I really wonder how did the Basques manage to maintain a pre-IE language when they peak on the R1b haplogroup, which suggests a heavy IE influence. :confused:

These things have been boggling my mind. This seems like the most important immigration to have happened in European history after the arrival of the cro-magnon man.

[Albion]

No, blue eyes is very common among most Europeans not just in Scandinavia, I live in France and most peoples have light eyes, there are also the slavic population, Russia, Poland etc...now like you have said yourself in your previous message, the genetic impact (and the physical influence) is far more important among a place like the North Europe (with a weak population) than in the Mediterranean (or in Asia), with a strong culture and a big (in numbers) population...

also, for the physical impact, everything will depend if will take their own wives with them, or if they will take wives among the non IE population.

for example, from Eupedia:

This is true. However I don't think Scandinavia is special in this case, IE men and women mixing with the natives was quite uniform across much of the continent.
Only in Scandinavia and the Med are there large populations of pre-IE people.


"Maternal lineages in South Asia are, however, overwhelmingly pre-Indo-European. For instance, India has over 75% of "native" mtDNA M and R lineages and 10% of East Asian lineages. In the residual 15% of haplogroups, approximately half are of Middle Eastern origin. Only about 7 or 8% could be of "Russian" (Pontic-Caspian steppe) origin, mostly in the form of haplogroup U2 and W (although the origin of U2 is still debated). European mtDNA lineages are much more common in Central Asia though, and even in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. This suggests that the Indo-European invasion of India was conducted mostly by men through war, and the first major settlement of women was in northern Pakistan, western India (Punjab to Gujarat) and northern India (Uttar Pradesh), where haplogroups U2 and W are the most common."

You can't have the same result with a wife or a man with dark skin mixed with a blond white man or woman, than with two Whites peoples...that logical, and that easy to explain that the IE invasion don't have always the same physical impact.


This again suggests to me that it was native (or at least, Neolithic) women that inferred blonde hair onto the mixed native + IE offspring.


there are also the fact that blue eyes have appeared in the same place (the Black Sea) that the homeland of IE, that don't let the place of lot speculation imho.;)

How do we know this?

[Drax13]

This is true. However I don't think Scandinavia is special in this case, IE men and women mixing with the natives was quite uniform across much of the continent.
Only in Scandinavia and the Med are there large populations of pre-IE people.

How do you know that in Scandinavia there are a large population before the IE ? I have read the opposite, for what I read in Eupedia (according Macciamo), the haplogroup female of Eurasian origin, so closely related to IE, were far more important in the north than in mediterrean (on other words, IE have mixed more in south, specially with females)....the difference can also be explained by their sexual preference.




This again suggests to me that it was native (or at least, Neolithic) women that inferred blonde hair onto the mixed native + IE offspring.

No, because that don't explain how the original IE were so blond with blue eyes and it was before they have arrived in Western Europe (you talk about neolithic women from North Western ?)....why scientific studies don't have found "blue eyes" in the other old corpses of haplogroup I or other populations for example...except among IE, I have never seen blue eyes/blond hairs related to someone else.

If you see my previous links, it's the point of view of the scientifics too.

except that the article say absolutely the opposite of your suggestion (and some peoples in North Indians/Pakistan, Iran, but also Central Asia etc...have blue eyes because of the male IE invasion).




How do we know this?

Simply because they have studied the various mummies of IE and have probably also the others bodies of the other populations, if nobody were blues eyes and blond hairs except the IE before their migration, well that probably from them, they seem to aware where there are more "blue eyes" concentrate in the same place...they don't say that just by pleasure.:D

[Albion]

Do you think R1b entered western Europe pacifically?

Not exactly. Some warfare, some peaceful-ish settlement. The climate around the late neolithic / early bronze age was declining which led to agriculture failing in much of Northern Europe.
At this time the crops were still rather primitive and adapted to the Middle East, places such as Ireland became a lot colder and wetter and agriculture almost collapsed there altogether.

R1b carrying the pastoral lifestyle is much more adaptable. Crops can be raised, but cattle, sheep and other livestock could be grazed across vast areas of land that were cleared. The plentiful rain and long days of summer in Northern Europe created good pastures for grazing animals.
The R1b people likely saved agriculture in a lot of NW Europe and introduced metal working and thus better weaponry. They had a better hierarchy and thus with these advantages and others, came to dominate Western Europe.


Some sources claim that the Bell-beaker culture began in Portugal, so it couldn't have been an east-to-west expansion, but they're definitely related to R1b. Did they just initially acquire it by mingling with the IE neighbors?

R1b could have carried an earlier proto-type of the Bell Beaker culture with it into Western Europe. When it encountered the earlier Megalithic cultures of Western Europe it absorbed some aspects of the earlier culture, including the routes along the Atlantic façade. The Bell Beaker spread along the Atlantic coast and into areas with large R1b populations. It never occurs far from R1b and matches its maximum distribution area quite well.


Were the natives mostly broad-faced cromagnoids (and variants) and the R1b/R1a foreigners narrow-faced?

I don't know what their faces were like. I suspect that R1b would have been of the Atlantid types.
Most of the "natives" were Neolithic peoples IMO, the hunter gatherers probably went extinct in most of Western Europe.


And I really wonder how did the Basques manage to maintain a pre-IE language when they peak on the R1b haplogroup, which suggests a heavy IE influence. :confused:

Because R1b might not have initially spoken an Indo-European language, or at least not exclusively. Indo-European languages could have spread latter with the Celts (as they did in Iberia). They'd have acquired IE from R1a peoples in Eastern Europe.
Another possibility is that some bands of R1b peoples spoke it whilst others didn't.


These things have been boggling my mind. This seems like the most important immigration to have happened in European history after the arrival of the cro-magnon man.


Yes, it is a tough subject. I'm still thinking about it myself.

[Albion]

How do you know that in Scandinavia there are a large population before the IE ?

I never said this. Scandinavia likely supported less people. Less people makes it easier for genetic bottlenecks to form and thus mutations to spread into the population.


If you see my previous links, it's the point of view of the scientifics too.

and the article say absolutely the opposite (and some peoples in North Indians/Pakistan, Iran, but also Central Asia etc...have blue eyes because of the male IE invasion).

But it is a trait that can be passed on by both males and females, so my argument is that it spread from one of the female haplogroups to males. Males then spread it even more because they've moved great distances. If it were from a female haplogroup then it could have occurred basically anywhere.
Even today blonde women by far outnumber blonde men. It could be natural selection, but more likely it is because it was originally a female trait.


Simply because they have studied the various mummies of IE and have probably also the others bodies of the other populations, if nobody were blues eyes and blond hairs except the IE before their migration, well that probably from them, they seem to aware where there are more "blue eyes" concentrate in the same place...they don't say that just by pleasure.:D

So in that case it likely evolved in the east (unless there are some west to east migrations we don't know about).

[beaver]

Dystrophy without D, farmer activity, bread and kasha, Golfstream (for northern farmers) = blue eyes.
Not Arians :) They were Churcas

[Albion]

Dystrophy without D, farmer activity, bread and kasha, Golfstream (for northern farmers) = blue eyes.
Not Arians :) They were Churcas

Lack of sunlight in northern areas could explain lighter skin, not blue eyes though.
Vitamin D can be absorbed from sunlight or by eating certain types of fish. since the Mesolithic hunter gatherers consumed a lot of fish, we can assume that they weren't deficient.

Early farming on the other hand offered much poorer nutrition. The height gap between hunter gatherers and farmers only began to close with the introduction of more pastoral farming practices.

[Drax13]

I never said this. Scandinavia likely supported less people. Less people makes it easier for genetic bottlenecks to form and thus mutations to spread into the population

Yes, we are agree.



But it is a trait that can be passed on by both males and females, so my argument is that it spread from one of the female haplogroups to males. Males then spread it even more because they've moved great distances. If it were from a female haplogroup then it could have occurred basically anywhere.
Even today blonde women by far outnumber blonde men. It could be natural selection, but more likely it is because it was originally a female trait.

I think there are a misandurstood, sorry it's probably because of my english, I don't argue with it was from originally from a woman, the article say that, but where is from this woman ? If I trust the scientific articles, that from the region of IE, these blonds women don't from nowhere, they are from a tribe, this tribe is according these research, the IE....we know that because blue eyes are extremely young.

Now, I don't have said that male don't need their female to make blond hair or blue eyes, of course the IE men and women need each other to produce most "blue eyes", because of the recessive nature of this gene...when I talk about the invasion of IE, I have talked more of the Western European countries, where they have taken their wives with them, unlike the Asian Places (specially in India).

But despite that, we can see that various places where the IE males have migrated or invaded, that have left a good portion (but minor) blue eyes among the Asian population among Uyghur, North Indians, Takjik etc...).

Also among these asian population, there are some tribes who still look like 100% european, probably because the old IE has kept their wives, for example these little girls "Uyghur" and women (their ancestors were the famous Tocharians):


http://www.flickr.com/photos/29126736@N08/4450015726

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29126736@N08/2842452790

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/_uyghur.jpg?w=252&h=368

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2720/4451968214_d9074f5fc3.jpg

My favorite is this girl from Iran, she look very english, I think she look like Michelle Williams (actress):

http://www.ghandchi.com/iranscope/Anthology/KavehFarrokh/300/image051.jpg

There are also this great websites, with some amazing picture with IE mixed with these population of Asia, some of them still look like very European, there are also lot of explanation about IE migration (sadly in French the website is more complete):

http://pastmists.wordpress.com/


For the blond hair, it's different, if I remember correctly men don't have the same amount of blond hair because of the testosterone who make their hairs darker (see for example how many childs have blond hairs and grown up with darker hairs), but if we take just the blue eyes, I think we have the same numbers among male and female Europeans.



So in that case it likely evolved in the east (unless there are some west to east migrations we don't know about).

Yes, around the Ukraine and Russia, the supposed IE homeland...before the invasion of IE in Western Europe, the "proto-european" in this place were dark hairs with brown eyes for what I have read.

[Insuperable]

Lack of sunlight in northern areas could explain lighter skin, not blue eyes though.

Eyes produce pigment too, just as skin does.


Vitamin D can be absorbed from sunlight or by eating certain types of fishsince the Mesolithic hunter gatherers consumed a lot of fish, we can assume that they weren't deficient.

According to Vitamin D theory because of lack of vitamin D people's bodies as an evolutionary mechanism found a way to produce more Vitamin D on their own. This fits with the idea that blue eyes developed with incoming R1b and R1a carriers rather than Mesolithic Europeans if Meso's weren't deficient. No?

[Gjenerali]

According to Vitamin D theory because of lack of vitamin D people's bodies as an evolutionary mechanism found a way to produce more Vitamin D on their own. This fits with the idea that blue eyes developed with incoming R1b and R1a carriers rather than Mesolithic Europeans. No?

Blue eyes originate in Black Sea Region around the Pontic-Caspian steppes. Probably due to sexual selection from R1a West Central Asian newcomers with the Mesolithic females.

[Insuperable]

Blue eyes originate in Black Sea Region around the Pontic-Caspian steppes. Probably due to sexual selection from R1a West Central Asian newcomers with the Mesolithic females.

I think that the presumed territory where blue eyes originated fits perfectly with the presumed theory of its mechanism because of relatively cold climate of Pontic-Caspian steppes (less Vitamin D) and as someone said that incoming newcomers were Vitamin deficient was an another reason. I was simply saying that if Mesolithic weren't Vitamin D (because they ate a lot fish) deficient than it is not so likely that they had something to do with it.

[Dacul]

Finland have very few R1B and R1A but has mostly blue eyes in the south,with mostly brown eyes in the north.
From what I know I1 is more present in south while in north is very few present.

[Peyrol]

Actually the places with the highest frequency of Blue Eyes does fit pretty nicely with the extent of Mesolithic Haplogroup I1 territory in Europe but at the same time it fits pretty much equally as well with R1a.

http://thesocietypages.org/graphicsociology/files/2009/01/westernparadigm_blue_eye_color_map.jpg

Lol @ the 20-49% blue eyes in Marocco. :lol:

[Albion]

I think there are a misandurstood, sorry it's probably because of my english, I don't argue with it was from originally from a woman, the article say that, but where is from this woman ? If I trust the scientific articles, that from the region of IE, these blonds women don't from nowhere, they are from a tribe, this tribe is according these research, the IE....we know that because blue eyes are extremely young.

Now, I don't have said that male don't need their female to make blond hair or blue eyes, of course the IE men and women need each other to produce most "blue eyes", because of the recessive nature of this gene...when I talk about the invasion of IE, I have talked more of the Western European countries, where they have taken their wives with them, unlike the Asian Places (specially in India).

But despite that, we can see that various places where the IE males have migrated or invaded, that have left a good portion (but minor) blue eyes among the Asian population among Uyghur, North Indians, Takjik etc...).

I see. Yes, it probably arose in eastern Europe, probably on the steppes and could have spread with the Indo-Europeans.


Eyes produce pigment too, just as skin does.

I don't think Vitamin D would affect those much. They're not a large area of the body and I doubt they're very important in absorbing Vitamin D into the body. They seem to have resulted from sexual selection only.


According to Vitamin D theory because of lack of vitamin D people's bodies as an evolutionary mechanism found a way to produce more Vitamin D on their own. This fits with the idea that blue eyes developed with incoming R1b and R1a carriers rather than Mesolithic Europeans if Meso's weren't deficient. No?

The Neolithic farmers would have likely been deficient unless they happened to combine farming with a lot of hunting and fishing. This could also have affected R1b and R1a people as they moved into higher latitudes and darker climates (cloudy areas).
The affects of lack of vitamin D would presumably lead to natural selection favouring lighter skin tones though. It doesn't necessarily have much impact on eye colour. Blue eyes could just be an associated trait and have worked its way into the population by sexual selection, it doesn't seem to have any actual function apart from that.

[Albion]

I think that the presumed territory where blue eyes originated fits perfectly with the presumed theory of its mechanism because of relatively cold climate of Pontic-Caspian steppes (less Vitamin D) and as someone said that incoming newcomers were Vitamin deficient was an another reason. I was simply saying that if Mesolithic weren't Vitamin D (because they ate a lot fish) deficient than it is not so likely that they had something to do with it.

Cold climate is quite vague though. You have areas in the high Arctic which have almost 24 hours of daylight at the height of summer and then very few hours in winter.
Some areas that are very cold in winter (such as the Pontic Steppe) can be baking hot in summer.

Consider that the Pontic Steppe is rather a dry region of the world. This indicates that cloud cover will be lower and so exposure to sunlight will be higher.
In winter the days are much shorter and the sunlight is weaker, but all that snow lying around is very good at reflecting it.
Now compare it to Britain or Norway - around half the days are overcast and many of the sunny days actually occur in winter when the sunlight is weaker. This means less potential for Vitamin D absorption.

The Pontic Steppe is a poor choice for considering the evolution of light skin. If it did happen there, then it was by chance only.
Blue eyes could have evolved there as a sexually selected trait, but I think the early Indo-Europeans would have had olive skin - they'd have been slightly tanned. The lighter shades would have evolved in Northern Europe.

Look at this solar power potential map. Where solar potential is the highest is the natural selection for light skin weakest. Where solar potential is lowest the selection there is highest.
That light skin didn't evolve amongst the Sami must partly be down to chance. Or maybe because they were hunter gatherers into historical times, maybe something in their diet meant that they weren't deficient and thus didn't have time to evolve lighter skin (their lighter skin today seems like a recent phenomenon from mixing.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/7951/solarmap.png
Look how sunny the Pontic Steppe is and how Northern Europe is much less so. The Pontic Steppe isn't the Arctic, there's no natural forces there to require lighter skin.

[Drax13]

Finland have very few R1B and R1A but has mostly blue eyes in the south,with mostly brown eyes in the north.
From what I know I1 is more present in south while in north is very few present.

Yes, the haplogroup Y of Finns is close to Siberians, but curiously they don't look like Asians, but if you look the maternal lineage of their haplogroup, I think there are lot more "European" and IE haplogroup, it's not rare between 2 differents tribes who have associated, to give their women for various reasons ...that also explain why Finns don't talk a Indo-Europeans language.

Also, from Macciamo of Eupedia:

"Blond Finns are south-west Finns, who are mostly I1a and R1a. They are most likely the descendants of Bronze Age Swedes (before R1b reached Sweden)."

The explain why South Finns have so much Blue Eyes.

Also be careful with genetic haplogroup map in internet, in general they like to take the most "typical" haplogroup to represent a country.

[Dacul]

Yes, the haplogroup Y of Finns is close to Siberians, but curiously they don't look like Asians, but if you look the maternal lineage of their haplogroup, I think there are lot more "European" and IE haplogroup, it's not rare between 2 differents tribes who have associated, to give their women for various reasons ...that also explain why Finns don't talk a Indo-Europeans language.

Also, from Macciamo of Eupedia:

"Blond Finns are south-west Finns, who are mostly I1a and R1a. They are most likely the descendants of Bronze Age Swedes (before R1b reached Sweden)."

The explain why South Finns have so much Blue Eyes.

Also be careful with genetic haplogroup map in internet, in general they like to take the most "typical" haplogroup to represent a country.
Dude,here is a talk about blue eyes and you give me a text where is said that blond finns are south-west finns who are mostly I1A and R1A?
Besides,south west finns are not mostly R1A or I1A Maciamo for me is a bad example of how you can moderate a forum to sustain your own ideas.

Finns have highest fino-ugric maternal lines from whole Europe.
I do not care about what eupedia is writing,I even stoped posting there after I was moderated when I brought Maciamo into attention that udmurts have a high percentage of red hair and they have no link with celts.
In Finland R1A1 same with R1B are under 5%,go google it if you do not believe me.If you say I should not believe genetic tests from google,you are not to be trusted,next thing is that you will say me that I should believe what jews are telling only,lol.
Is pretty clear that R1B is not linked with blue eyes since for example in Spain R1B is at high percentage but blue eyes are not that present.
As for Romania,Serbia,Montenegro,Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina where I2 is high but blue eyes are not that dense,I think is because climate.I think most people from Romania,Serbia,Montenegro,Croatia,Bosnia and Herzegovina are carrying blue eyes gene.
I saw plenty of cases in Romania,when no grandfather or grandmother had blue eyes,same with parents,but children had blue eyes.
And what I noticed now is that the percentage of blue eyes in the young people increased (in Romania).

[Prince Carlo]

@Albion The original inhabitants of the Pontic Steppes came from near the Baltic shores.

[Drax13]

Dude,here is a talk about blue eyes and you give me a text where is said that blond finns are south-west finns who are mostly I1A and R1A?
Besides,south west finns are not mostly R1A or I1A Maciamo for me is a bad example of how you can moderate a forum to sustain your own ideas.

Macciamo work in genetic, so I guess he know a little better than us how to interpret an information....and you don't have read correctly, he talk about Swedish in Finland and not the Finns themselves, Swedish have lot of R1a, and they has a huge presence in Finland for their history, except that, have you look my link...scientifics seem to be pretty agree with Macciamo about the blue eyes linked to IE.

There are also another problem with the I1, first the cromagnon have been clearly described like brown eyes and hairs, so it's clearly not from them, how could you explain the presence of blue eyes among among Asian population (again see my links), despite there are no haplogroup I1....in other hand, in Finland, you can find R1a and b.


Finns have highest fino-ugric maternal lines from whole Europe.

We don't have any details, highest could be 60%, but maybe they are 30% of IE female haplogroup (it's just an example, I don't have the numbers) , that would be enough to change them physically (specially if the Neolithic population were a weak numbers), for example the Finns haplogroup Y "N" is 58,3%, do you think they look like Siberian or Asian ?


I do not care about what eupedia is writing,I even stoped posting there after I was moderated when I brought Maciamo into attention that udmurts have a high percentage of red hair and they have no link with celts.
In Finland R1A1 same with R1B are under 5%,go google it if you do not believe me.If you say I should not believe genetic tests from google,you are not to be trusted,next thing is that you will say me that I should believe what jews are telling only,lol.

Among the south or the north, you have said yourself that most of blue eyes are in the south of Finland, curiously where they are Swedish in Finland, and Swedish have lot of R1a, that the problem with your numbers, that don't give any detail....I don't care about your relation with Maciamo, I don't know both of you, Macciamo confirm just the information of others scientifics, nothing more, nothing less...

I don't have said you shouldn't believe in genetics test from google, I have said you should be careful because in general they don't have all the details (that pretty normal, they give just a map), for example the difference between the Finns from north and south (from Swedish peoples).

And why you talk about the jews ? I think they would prefer the idea of a blond eyes cromagon I, than the IE blond and blue eyes ( so Aryan), like Hitler have liked to describe them.;)...they maybe dislike the idea, but it's a proof that Hitler has more or less said the truth.



Is pretty clear that R1B is not linked with blue eyes since for example in Spain R1B is at high percentage but blue eyes are not that present.

Read my previous message, you would understand why...simply because IE in this place have taken more European wives from Neolitic...unlike in the North where they has the IE wives, there are also the sexual preference who can make a big change in an population...there are also the fact that in mediterranean place, peoples has more population during these times...the impact in a population is not the same (see my example with IE in Asia).


As for Romania,Serbia,Montenegro,Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina where I2 is high but blue eyes are not that dense,I think is because climate.I think most people from Romania,Serbia,Montenegro,Croatia,Bosnia and Herzegovina are carrying blue eyes gene.
I saw plenty of cases in Romania,when no grandfather or grandmother had blue eyes,same with parents,but children had blue eyes.
And what I noticed now is that the percentage of blue eyes in the young people increased (in Romania).

These countries have also an important presence of R1a and b, and again you can read my previous messages about the absence of haplogroup I among the old IE, despite that they has blond and blue eyes, the presence of blue eyes in Asia etc, the fact that cromagnon haplogroup "I" were brown eyes and hairs etc... seem to indicate that the IE are the peoples who have brought blue eyes, again I take scientific articles, it's not my theory, but you can dislike this idea or not to be agree with that.

It's curious because you seem to have a personnal problem with the idea that IE were the origin of the blue eyes.

[beaver]

Lack of sunlight in northern areas could explain lighter skin, not blue eyes though.
Albion, I read the post only right now. There is a complex of different mutations on depressing melanine for sure but in most cases a mutation causing depigmenting of the skin should also work in the cell of eye. Eiberg found only one from the complex. Also, I personally have two cousins - one is brown-eyed blond, another is blue-eyed brunet :) So, this is not easy.

[Loki]

That map is ridiculous. Judging by this map, Southern Poles are basically same as Greeks in terms of pigmentation. :picard1:

20 - 49% is a wide range ... so it is possible. And we're talking about eye colour here, don't be so defensive ;)

[Nurzat]

blue eyes originated with anatolian indoeuropeans, J2a1b* (=J2a4b*)

[beaver]

blue eyes originated with anatolian indoeuropeans, J2a1b* (=J2a4b*)
rather I1 from Anatolia but not IE. IEs joined to European population later, with the language and battle-axes :)

[Libertas]

That map is ridiculous. Judging by this map, Southern Poles are basically same as Greeks in terms of pigmentation. :picard1:

Ths map is rubbish.:picard2:

[Drax13]

rather I1 from Anatolia but not IE. IEs joined to European population later, with the language and battle-axes :)

That not true, the IE were already present in the east of Europe (region of the Black Sea) with the first apperance of the blue eyes there are 6000 years ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog_culture

he Sredny Stog culture (named after the Dnieper river islet of Seredny Stih where it was first located, rendered as "Sredny Stog" in Russian) dates from the 4500-3500 BC. It was situated across the Dnieper river in its both shores with sporadic settlements to the west and east[1]

Expert Dmytro Telegin has divided Sredny Stog into two distinct phases. Phase II (ca. 4000-3500 BC) using corded ware pottery which may have originated, and stone battle-axes of the type later associated with expanding Indo-European cultures to the West. Most notably, it has perhaps the earliest evidence of horse domestication (in phase II), with finds suggestive of cheek-pieces (psalia).

In the context of the modified Kurgan hypothesis of Marija Gimbutas, this pre-kurgan archaeological culture could represent the Urheimat (homeland) of the Proto-Indo-European language. The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded to the west replacing Sredny Stog to in its full geographical extent, coming in direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."

I have already given in my previous messages the articles and the links who have demonstrated that the light eyes are from the IE and why that can't from the haplogroup I1.:)

For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

"Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a Y-chromosome haplogroup and one Haplogroup C (Y-DNA)(xC3). mtDNA haplogroups of nine individuals assigned to the same Andronovo horizon and region were as follows: U4 (2 individuals), U2e, U5a1, Z, T1, T4, H, and K2b."

"90 % of the bronze age period mtDNA haplogroups were of west Eurasian origin and the study determined that at least 60 % of the individuals overall (out of the 26 bronze and iron age human remains' samples of the study that could be tested) had light hair and blue or green eyes."

You can see no presence of haplogroup I1, among these IE, but they are in majority blue eyes and blond hairs:thumb001:

[Longobarda]

Actually the places with the highest frequency of Blue Eyes does fit pretty nicely with the extent of Mesolithic Haplogroup I1 territory in Europe but at the same time it fits pretty much equally as well with R1a.

http://thesocietypages.org/graphicsociology/files/2009/01/westernparadigm_blue_eye_color_map.jpg

This map is a big lie

[Longobarda]

SURPRISE!!!! (and NOT from Wikipedia but from scientific papers)

We used the proportion of sequences mapping to the Y chromosome to infer sex (Extended Data Table 4 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4943878/table/T4/); Supplementary Information section 4 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4943878/#SD1)), and determined Y chromosome haplogroups for the males. We were surprised to find haplogroup R1b in the ~14,000-year-old Villabruna individual from Italy. While the predominance of R1b in western Europe today owes its origin to Bronze Age migrations from the eastern European steppe9 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4943878/#R9), its presence in Villabruna and in a ~7,000-year-old farmer from Iberia9 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4943878/#R9)document a deeper history of this haplotype in more western parts of Europe. Additional evidence of an early link between west and east comes from the HERC2 locus, where a derived allele that is the primary driver of light eye color in Europeans appears nearly simultaneously in specimens from Italy and the Caucasus ~14,000-13,000 years ago. Extended Data Table 5 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4943878/table/T5/) presents results for additional alleles of known phenotypic importance. When analyzing the mitochondrial genomes we note the presence of haplogroup M in a ~27,000-year-old individual from southern Italy (Ostuni1) in agreement with the observation that this haplogroup, which today occurs in Asia and is absent in Europe, was present in pre-Last Glacial Maximum Europe and became lost during the Ice Age26 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4943878/#R26). We also find that the ~33,000 year old Muierii2 from Romania carries a basal version of haplogroup U6, in agreement with the hypothesis that the presence of derived versions of this haplogroup in North Africans today is due to back-migration from western Eurasia27 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4943878/#R27).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4943878/

Villabruna is in NORTHERN ITALY

[Stears]

Blue eyes have originate from the western hunter gatherers, so the I haplogroup tribes.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Clearly from R1b, that's where I got my deep blue eyes.

[Stears]

Blue-Eyed Hunter-Gatherers Roamed Prehistoric Europe, Gene Map Reveals
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/01/140126-blue-eye-spain-fossil-human-discovery-gene/

[Stears]

Clearly from R1b, that's where I got my deep blue eyes.
No, they haven't. The indo european peoples were mostly brown eyed.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

No, they haven't. The indo european peoples were mostly brown eyed.

Says who? Some I haplogroup Easterner? Bow before the splendor of R1b.

[Stears]

Says who? Some I haplogroup Easterner? Bow before the splendor of R1b.
Read the scientific studies.

[non-foras-ire]

Ugh, R1 origin for blue eyes? I come from a family that has gray-blue eyes, but if they are associated with R1i'd rather have dark eyes.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

It can be mutation from various haplos, not from exclusive one.

[Kelmendasi]

It can be mutation from various haplos, not from exclusive one.
Exactly, although if I had to choose, it would be either I or it's ancestor IJ