Athens predicts 25 percent fall in GDP by 2014

[Bugarash 1893]

Btw this is the optimistic scenario,recession will resume after 2014...


The ailing Greek economy is on the verge of a 1930s-style Great Depression, as the Athens government predicted a 25% fall in GDP by 2014, putting intense pressure on the EU to relax the terms on the country’s €130bn (£105bn) bailout package.

The finance minister, Yannis Stournaras, said a decline in tax revenues and spiralling unemployment will deepen the country’s four-year recession, which critics of the EU’s stance said could lead to a recession as long and deep as America’s pre-war decline.

Stournaras, who is locked in negotiations over the terms of a second bailout, fears that efforts to revive the Greek economy will be undermined by a draconian austerity programme, early debt repayments and high interest rates on its loans.

[Trun]

We should not worry about Greeks. They had worse times and yet they managed to retain their immense self-confidence.

[Bugarash 1893]

We should not worry about Greeks. They had worse times and yet they managed to retain their immense self-confidence.

This is worse than WW2.
They still dont know the shit they are in.

[Trun]

I personally don't want Greece to bankrupt, they are one of our biggest trading partners and any damage on their economy will cause damage on ours as well.

[zack]

Yeah well that is what happens when you live in an unsustainable lifestyle.

Rest of the western world take notes.

[beaver]

You are making now your own new Soviet Union with centralized management. I wouldnt recommend this, you will have some problems in the future for sure.

[The Lawspeaker]

No shit, Einsteins !

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/579581_282925565141337_744368990_n.jpg
The new 1 Euro coin: the government screwing the people. (Cynical German humour).

There was an article (http://www.nu.nl/economie/2928843/brussel-wil-af-van-lage-btw-tarieven.html) in the Dutch papers stating that the EU Commission wants to abolish the lower VAT rates. So that means in reality that bread which is now at 6 percent VAT will go at 21 percent VAT. All foodstuffs will become "luxury articles" and the same goes for medicines. WANKERS ! (if you excuse me my language.. and even if you don't. I couldn't care less).

The EU Parliament wants more money for itself (http://www.nu.nl/economie/2925666/eu-parlement-houdt-vast-verhoging-begroting.html) and the civil servants as well.. and of course the Dutch government claimed that people would not be hit so extensively by the new VAT rate of 21 percent. The opposite seems to be true (http://www.zvandaag.nl/358/2012/10/06/hogere-btw-kost-gezin-nu-al-180-euro/). The new VAT rate has cost the average 180 euro's already over the course of a single month and will cost 150 per month more by 2014. The shop-owners are suffering as well and a lot of them are going under. And that comes on top of the higher healthcare insurance rates as well (and the "own risk" claims with healthcare insurance rates on average shooting up 130 euro's !)


With all due respect, Barosso and Rutte (meaning none): how the FUCK do you expect us to pay for it all ? We haven't got a bloody penny in our wallets anymore these days.

And if we are going to be hit that bad.. God only knows what the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese must go through.

[Incal]

Yeah well that is what happens when you live in an unsustainable lifestyle.

So true.

[Anusiya]

in the Dutch papers stating that the EU Commission wants to abolish the lower VAT rates. So that means in reality that bread which is now at 6 percent VAT will go at 21 percent VAT.With all due respect, Barosso and Rutte (meaning none): how the FUCK do you expect to pay for it all ? We haven't got a bloody penny in our wallets anymore these days.And if we are going to be hit that bad.. God only knows what the Greeks, Spanish, Portuguese must go through.

Aaaaah, so this is why they announced the other day that the EU reserves for investments in PIGS (ie. loan money) will rise up to 500 billion Euros in the next 2 years. They will tax all of us more...:D:picard1:

[The Lawspeaker]

Aaaaah, so this is why they announced the other day that the EU reserves for investments in PIGS (ie. loan money) will rise up to 500 billion Euros in the next 2 years. They will tax all of us more...:D:picard1:

Yap. We're being taxed to death..

[beaver]

Aaaaah, so this is why they announced the other day that the EU reserves for investments in PIGS (ie. loan money) will rise up to 500 billion Euros in the next 2 years. They will tax all of us more...
You may think what you want but dont compare youself with Americans, they can issue some trillion dollars a year without any problems, you not.

[Anusiya]

You may think what you want but dont compare youself with Americans, they can issue some trillion dollars a year without any problems, you not.

My good man, in which part of my writting am I implying that they will print money? I am saying that they will tax us. :picard1:

[beaver]

My good man, in which part of my writting am I implying that they will print money? I am saying that they will tax us.
ok a couple (up to 50) of your points, what you wanted to say? I'm here and I'm not a pressman.

[RussiaPrussia]

greek should just finally leave the eurozone its the best for them.

They can go bankrupt and can show all the banks the finger, they can print money, devalue their currency, lower interest rates and so on. Of course it will increase inflation but with an easy policy banks can lent more, it will increase growth. The good thing about inflation is also that people will spent their money fast instead to save it this will increase revenues of small businesses. greece can export more with the devalued currency and Greeks will buy more greek products because foreign goods will be too expensive.

People will visit greece making holidays because it will be cheaper like it is in turkey now. I hope the greek military makes a coup or something.

[morski]

So that means in reality that bread which is now at 6 percent VAT will go at 21 percent VAT. All foodstuffs will become "luxury articles" and the same goes for medicines. WANKERS ! (if you excuse me my language.. and even if you don't. I couldn't care less).



We have had an uniform VAT of around 20% here for as long as I can remember.

[The Lawspeaker]

We have had an uniform VAT of around 20% here for as long as I can remember.

That explains why your economy is so... f....cked up.

[Peyrol]

25% fall???

Greece economy would return as was before Ioannis Metaxas, then.

[Graham]

Deficit to gdp ratio will take a hit then & Greece will struggle, to ever pay those debts.

[Germanicus]

When Greece,Spain, and Portugal were accepted as members of the Eu I raised my eyebrows and publicly quoted: "this will end in tears!" They were donkey economies back then, I remember Greece struggling to just get in.
The greed of foreign institutions brought this to our doorsteps.

[Damião de Góis]

When Greece,Spain, and Portugal were accepted as members of the Eu I raised my eyebrows and publicly quoted: "this will end in tears!" They were donkey economies back then, I remember Greece struggling to just get in.
The greed of foreign institutions brought this to our doorsteps.

That was in 86. The problem here was the common currency more than 10 years later.

[Peyrol]

When Greece,Spain, and Portugal were accepted as members of the Eu I raised my eyebrows and publicly quoted: "this will end in tears!" They were donkey economies back then, I remember Greece struggling to just get in.
The greed of foreign institutions brought this to our doorsteps.

Spain wasn't so bad before the estate/housing scandal.

[Damião de Góis]

In fact, here is the evolution of the portuguese debt, where you can see that nothing happened in 1986

http://oinsurgente.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/divida-publica-portuguesa-1850-2010.png

On the other hand, it's clear that something happened in 1999 when the € was introduced.

[Peyrol]

In fact, here is the evolution of the portuguese debt, where you can see that nothing happened in 1986

http://oinsurgente.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/divida-publica-portuguesa-1850-2010.png

On the other hand, it's clear that something happened in 1999 when the € was introduced.

Seems that during Caetano P.d. reached lowest levels ever.

[Damião de Góis]

Seems that during Caetano P.d. reached lowest levels ever.

Yes but that was because we were an isolated economy, and the country itself was isolated because the rest of the world condemned our presence in Africa. It was difficult times, and many emigrated during that period.

[Peyrol]

Yes but that was because we were an isolated economy, and the country itself was isolated because the rest of the world condemned our presence in Africa. It was difficult times, and many emigrated during that period.

Yes i read something about this.

Seem that about us, highest level ever was in 1994, after the end of the First Republic and in the beginning of ''Berlusconi Government 1st''

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/0/0f/Debito_pubblico.jpg

Lowest lever ever, instead was reached in 1925 (during the climax of fascism), with a percentage GDP/PD of 28%...

[Damião de Góis]

Yes i read something about this.

Seem that about us, highest level ever was in 1994, after the end of the First Republic and in the beginning of ''Berlusconi Government 1st''

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/0/0f/Debito_pubblico.jpg

Lowest lever ever, instead was reached in 1925 (during the climax of fascism), with a percentage GDP/PD of 28%...

What happened in 1982?

[The Lawspeaker]

It was during the "Years of Lead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_lead_(Italy)#The_Salerno_Massacre)" but maybe the Spadolini II Cabinet (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governo_Spadolini_II) has something to do with it ?

[Peyrol]

What happened in 1982?

The end of the 1955-1982 "economic miracle", which turned Italy from a 3rd world country to a globalized nation with an advanced economy; a general falling of the economy, the crysis of the big italian industries as FIAT, Buitoni, Cirio, Parmalat, Ferrero, Barilla, Benetton, internal terrorism (Birgate Rosse) etc, and also the starting of the ''Roman Government - Cosa Nostra wars'' (Cosa Nostra managed by the ''Corleonesi Family'' of Antonio Riina and Bernardo Provenzano), which reached the critical level with the militarization of Western Sicily and the murders of general Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa (wo wasn't sicilian, but a piemonteis general sent to Palermo) and of the magistrates Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino.

[Graham]

When Greece,Spain, and Portugal were accepted as members of the Eu I raised my eyebrows and publicly quoted: "this will end in tears!" They were donkey economies back then, I remember Greece struggling to just get in.
The greed of foreign institutions brought this to our doorsteps.

The UK has been economically defunct in the past also.

Receiving a huge IMF bailout in the 1970s. Begging bowl reached out.
IMF forced massive budget cuts on Britain.

[Prince Carlo]

Does it mean that milions of Greeks will come to Italy for "jobs"?

[Peyrol]

Does it mean that milions of Greeks will come to Italy for "jobs"?

Jobs?
Then they will be in the wrong place, lol.

[Absinthe]

Does it mean that milions of Greeks will come to Italy for "jobs"?
:rolleyes: No, it means that they will go to England, Germany, Sweden and other wealthy countries of the North for jobs, not equally shitty Southern economies run by equally corrupt governments. :picard1:

[Peyrol]

:rolleyes: No, it means that they will go to England, Germany, Sweden and other wealthy countries of the North for jobs, not equally shitty Southern economies run by equally corrupt governments. :picard1:

Really shitty, is notorius that Piemont, Lombardy, Emila and Veneto have the same economy of Epirus, Macedonia or Thessaglia :laugh:

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/images/newshome/gpd_2008_big.png

[Absinthe]

Really shitty, is notorius that Piemont, Lombardy, Emila and Veneto have the same economy of Epirus, Macedonia or Thessaglia :laugh:

This is not a pissing contest or a matter to joke about. You should not appear so worried about Greeks flocking to your country, nobody wants to go to Italy and suffer the same austerity measures and corruption as in Greece. It's not about the figures, it's about the quality of life. :rolleyes:

[Peyrol]

This is not a pissing contest or a matter to joke about. You should not appear so worried about Greeks flocking to your country, nobody wants to go to Italy and suffer the same austerity measures and corruption as in Greece. It's not about the figures, it's about the quality of life. :rolleyes:

Ehm...you really think that northern italian quality of life is the same of Greece? Lombardy as Epirus?
Google something about this topic...



...and btw we're full, northern Italy is congested of immigrants, we don't want more foreign people, even if they're other euros . Go where you want.

[Prince Carlo]

Actually Greeks are already coming to Italy for "jobs".

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60206

Let's wait for the final economic collapse!!!

[Absinthe]

Ehm...you really think that northern italian quality of life is the same of Greece? Lombardy as Epirus?
Google something about this topic...



...and btw we're full, northern Italy is congested of immigrants, we don't want more foreign people, even if they're other euros . Go where you want.
I would not want to live in a country that had been glorifying a person like Berlusconi even if it was the richest and cosiest country on the planet. Greeks are notoriously corrupt but on entirely other different levels than having their PM own the media and impede free speech while at the same time boast about his sex orgies and the citizens being proud of their cheesy "stallion" PM.

[Peyrol]

I would not want to live in a country that had been glorifying a person like Berlusconi even if it was the richest and cosiest country on the planet. Greeks are notoriously corrupt but on entirely other different levels than having their PM own the media and impede free speech while at the same time boast about his sex orgies and the citizens being proud of their cheesy "stallion" PM.

Berlusconi is out of government since last years and now has legal process in advancing about his corruption.

''Impede free speech''...a die hard myth.
Actually there were a lot of moderated left and far-left TV channels, blogs, papers and radios (La7, La Repubblica, l'Unità, il Fatto Quotidiano, Liberazione, Rai 3, etc), so the "Silvio owns the media" is the typical italian far-left whining propaganda (wehehe we lost election because people are braiwashed by Zilviuz TVs, wehehe).

[The Lawspeaker]

I would not want to live in a country that had been glorifying a person like Berlusconi even if it was the richest and cosiest country on the planet. Greeks are notoriously corrupt but on entirely other different levels than having their PM own the media and impede free speech while at the same time boast about his sex orgies and the citizens being proud of their cheesy "stallion" PM.

Exactly.

[Queen B]

...and btw we're full, northern Italy is congested of immigrants, we don't want more foreign people, even if they're other euros . Go where you want.
Greek never migrated to Italy, and never will. They only Greeks in Italy recently were for universities, and nothing more.
They prefer migrating to a well-off countries, like UK, Germany,Scandinavian countries, or USA and Australia, and generally, and to countries, lets be real here, that either are English speakers or the majority speaks english anyway.

[ficuscarica]

Deficit to gdp ratio will take a hit then & Greece will struggle, to ever pay those debts.

:confused:
It was clear from the very beginning that those debts will never be paid back.

[Osprey]

Greek never migrated to Italy, and never will. They only Greeks in Italy recently were for universities, and nothing more.
They prefer migrating to a well-off countries, like UK, Germany,Scandinavian countries, or USA and Australia, and generally, and to countries, lets be real here, that either are English speakers or the majority speaks english anyway.

Northern Italy is quite well off and has a lot of Germanic component. Certainly better than Greece.

[The Lawspeaker]

Northern Italy is quite well off and has a lot of Germanic component.
Ever been to Northern Italy ? :rolleyes:

[kabeiros]

those debts have already been paid back, ficus but the interest is not going to...

[Queen B]

:confused:
It was clear from the very beginning that those debts will never be paid back.
The last loans we take is to pay back loans and their interests. Hardly any money go to help the country.

Northern Italy is quite well off and has a lot of Germanic component. Certainly better than Greece.
Still, it was never a place that Greeks migrated, it isn't welcoming with the language issue, and a Greek will decide a safe-deal instead of going there.

[ficuscarica]

I am not accusing the Greeks, we should just finally cancel this stupid EU project.

Concerning the debts: Greek has practically no industry. Of course it doesn´t have the means to pay the debts back. It is the same with Spain. You can´t pay cars, heavy hightech industry and infrastructure with olive oil, wine and all inclusive holidays. No offense, but it simply doesn´t work - totally different economies.

[Graham]

Germany has been doing ok financially, out of the EUro crisis.

[ficuscarica]

Germany has been doing ok financially, out of the EU crisis.

No it has not. Look at Switzerland. There you can see what happens to countries that were clever enough to stay out of this nonsense. :thumb001:

Our money has practically halfed with the Euro.

[Osprey]

Ever been to Northern Italy ? :rolleyes:

I know its not as good as the Netherlands, but Lombards surely do have an impact on the genetic make up of the Northern Italians.

[Loki]

Germany has been doing ok financially, out of the EUro crisis.

Germans have become the new Jews ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

Germany has been doing ok financially, out of the EUro crisis.

Yap.. and we're all paying for Germany's prosperity. That's Germany's dirty little secret. :thumb001:

[Loki]

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/images/newshome/gpd_2008_big.png

The Netherlands is one of the wealthiest countries in Europe, with a high quality of life. What are you complaining about Tuan?

[ficuscarica]

Germans have become the new Jews ;)

If you are referring to giving credits, then unfortunately you are wrong. Because there is practically no chance for us to ever get them back....

[The Lawspeaker]

I know its not as good as the Netherlands, but Lombards surely do have an impact on the genetic make up of the Northern Italians.

Clearly you haven't been there.

[ficuscarica]

Yap.. and we're all paying for Germany's prosperity. That's Germany's dirty little secret. :thumb001:

What on earth are you talking about? Who is paying it and with what money from what economy? :confused:

[The Lawspeaker]

The Netherlands is one of the wealthiest countries in Europe, with a high quality of life. What are you complaining about Tuan?

You may want to read up about the latest economic issues here and the plans of the new cabinet. We have a reason to complain with prices of all sorts going through the roof.

[The Lawspeaker]

What on earth are you talking about? Who is paying it and with what money from what economy? :confused:

We: to save Brussels and to help your economy grow. And what's in it for us ? Nichts.

[ficuscarica]

We: to save Brussels and to help your economy grow. And what's in it for us ? Nichts.

Well, whatever Dutch money maybe comes to Germany, together with German money, is immediately transferred to mediterranean countries just to disappear forever and to cause an inflation rate of !100!!!% since the Euro has been introduced. It is not just an exaggeration when I say we were robbed of half our money. German economic growth? Give me a break.

[Loki]

What on earth are you talking about? Who is paying it and with what money from what economy? :confused:

You only care about profits, while other people are starving? Germany is wealthy and Germans are stingy.

[ficuscarica]

You only care about profits, while other people are starving? Germany is wealthy and Germans are stingy.

What´s your problem? Do we need to feed more people through? Who asked us? Right, nobody. We are expected to feed Europe and if not we are no friends/evil. Thanks, I glady spit on such a "friendship".

[ficuscarica]

European integration = Germany is being milked without limit.
This has led to bad experiences before... You can´t do that to us, nobody will tolerate that.

[Graham]

No it has not. Look at Switzerland. There you can see what happens to countries that were clever enough to stay out of this nonsense. :thumb001:

Our money has practically halfed with the Euro.

Euro Crisis Will Help Germany Balance Its Budget (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/euro-crisis-helps-germany-by-lowering-borrowing-costs-a-838880.html) source.

Switzerland...That's were all our debt money has gone. :D Sneaky Swiss.

[Anusiya]

Well, whatever Dutch money maybe comes to Germany, together with German money, is immediately transferred to mediterranean countries just to disappear forever and to cause an inflation rate of !100!!!% since the Euro has been introduced. It is not just an exaggeration when I say we were robbed of half our money. German economic growth? Give me a break.

yeah, they chose were to thrown the money, what to invest in, how to organize comsumption and subsidies. Great, huh?

Are you for a second round of German advancements? :p

[ficuscarica]

Euro Crisis Will Help Germany Balance Its Budget (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/euro-crisis-helps-germany-by-lowering-borrowing-costs-a-838880.html) source.

Switzerland...That's were all our debt money has gone. :D Sneaky Swiss.

This has nothing to do with us financing other countries, but with the fact that investors won´t invest in economical sh!tholes, but in countries with a functioning economy...
Would be the same without the EU, but then we wouldn´t have to give credits that never will be paid back....

[kabeiros]

Yap.. and we're all paying for Germany's prosperity. That's Germany's dirty little secret. :thumb001:
just a month ago you were complaining about the lazy Greeks who steal the money of the Dutch and German taxpayers...

[Queen B]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/greeces-loss-germanys-gain-why-merkels-good-crisis-is-set-to-turn-bad/article4226057/

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/04/24/germany-and-greece-during-the-crisis-who-wins-who-loses/

[Loki]

This has nothing to do with us financing other countries, but with the fact that investors won´t invest in economical sh!tholes, but in countries with a functioning economy...
Would be the same without the EU, but then we wouldn´t have to give credits that never will be paid back....

No it wouldn't be the same without the euro ... the euro crisis has helped Germany. Have you read the article?

I will make a new thread about it.

[ficuscarica]

The articles basically say: German money is worth nothing, that´s why German produces are being sold well. Great, but that doesn´t change the fact that we pay twice as much for everything as we did ten years ago.

"Hey, let´s become a sh!thole like Vietnam so that people buy our stuff." - No, thanks!

And how is it our fault that other countries suck economically and therefore investors rather lend money to us? We don´t "profit" from their crisis, this is just normal competition.

"Oh look, these guys are selling better stuff. It´s their fault that we don´t make money!" What nonsense!

[The Lawspeaker]

The new regeerakkoord (http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/regering/regeerakkoord) ("government agreement") between the VVD (right-wing conservative liberals) and the PvdA (former social democrats now left-wing liberals)* : we are going to pay and pay and pay and pay. Estimations in the papers actually say that people will lose 30 percent of their purchasing power over the coming years. 30 bloody percent. And who will get the dough: the upper classes again while the middle classes and the lower classes are being plucked. I will probably be unable to study because of the costs.

Americans: liberalism is NOT the left. Liberalism is the right-wing in Europe.

[Peyrol]

I know its not as good as the Netherlands, but Lombards surely do have an impact on the genetic make up of the Northern Italians.

250,000 people into a population of 5 million of celto-romanic population "heavy impact"?

I doubt. Germanic ethnic impact is low.

Lombard ethnic heritage is heavy visible only in the western lombard valleys (Bergamo, Brescia, Sondrio) and in some little zones of Emilia, Piemont and Veneto.

[Peyrol]

...and, btw, a great ''lol'' to Absinthe's post about a "poor and backward northern Italy" :lol:

[Absinthe]

...and, btw, a great ''lol'' to Absinthe's post about a "poor and backward northern Italy" :lol:
Are you nuts? Where did I say Northern Italy is poor and backward? Where did I ever use these particular words about Italy in general?

My original posts referred to the country Italy, not any specific region, and my words were "an equally shitty and corrupt economy" (not country or region).

After a few posts I let it go because you are clearly trying to pick a fight and then I would lose my temper and say some bad things about Italians because you would insult and downput the Greeks as clearly you strongly dislike them, and I didn't want to say something I would regret because I have nothing against Italians.

And here you go, 5 pages of irrelevant discussion later, you pop up like explosive diarrhea after a bad meal and you're addressing me, putting words in my mouth that I didn't use, twisting my intentions and trying to pick up a fight with me because I didn't take the bait the first time :picard1:

[Bugarash 1893]

25% decrease is still a more optimistic scenario.

The fall could easily reach 40% by the end of 2016.

But Greece just had a very high standard of living before the crisis,so even this downfall will keep her ahead of everyone in the wider region.

Exept if it doesnt go bankrupt.

[Onur]

25% decrease is still a more optimistic scenario.

The fall could easily reach 40% by the end of 2016.

But Greece just had a very high standard of living before the crisis,so even this downfall will keep her ahead of everyone in the wider region.

Exept if it doesnt go bankrupt.
Greece is already a bankrupt country for 2-3 years but they continue to live in comatose state with life support machine connected to ECB Brussels and German Bundesbank. When(not if) the elites pulls the plug, then Greece will finally officially announce their bankruptcy. If 25% decrease in total GDP in just 3-4 years is not bankruptcy, then what is?

Greece`s high standard of living was a result of absurd amount of debt loans from ECB. Any country who gets over 300 billion Euros loans in less than 10 years turns into some kind of fake paradise, especially if they have less than 10 million population but this cant continue forever as we saw in Greece`s case. A bankruptcy is inevitable in that case.

And no, Greece will probably drop to the same league with Albania, Bulgaria and Romania when they officially announce their bankruptcy and return to drachma.

[Bugarash 1893]

Greece is already a bankrupt country for 2-3 years but they continue to live in comatose state with life support machine connected to ECB Brussels and German Bundesbank. When(not if) the elites pulls the plug, then Greece will finally officially announce their bankruptcy. If 25% decrease in total GDP in just 3-4 years is not bankruptcy, then what is?
Let me inform you just on one fact:
Minimum salary in Greece currently is 580 EUR!

That seems bankrupt to you?
And they will never unplug the plug to Greece because Greece will keep accepting all their demands and besides,if Greece goes bankrupt,so does the entire eurozone project.

By keeping Greece alive,Germany keeps her investment alive.


Greece`s high standard of living was a result of absurd amount of debt loans from ECB. Any country who gets over 300 billion Euros loans in less than 10 years turns into some kind of fake paradise, especially if they have less than 10 million population but this cant continue forever as we saw in Greece`s case. A bankruptcy is inevitable in that case.

Didint Greece started to get a high standard since the early 90's?


And no, Greece will probably drop to the same league with Albania, Bulgaria and Romania when they officially announce their bankruptcy and return to drachma.

Bulgaria is in a league in front of Albania and Romania,just to correct you.Actually by 2017 according to the IMF,Bulgaria will be ahead of Greece in tersm of living standard dues becoming the most advanced balkan state.

Check out the macroeconomic date on Bulgaria.
I will point out one fact-Second lowest debt to GDP ration in Europe.

[The Lawspeaker]

Let me inform you just on one fact:
Minimum salary in Greece currently is 580 EUR!


Right. :eek: It's about the about the amount of our lowest assistance benefits. In this country 580 euro's is the average fucking rent. :rolleyes: Not bankrupt ? They are slipping back to the status of a third world hellhole.

[The Lawspeaker]

The new regeerakkoord (http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/regering/regeerakkoord) ("government agreement") between the VVD (right-wing conservative liberals) and the PvdA (former social democrats now left-wing liberals)* : we are going to pay and pay and pay and pay. Estimations in the papers actually say that people will lose 30 percent of their purchasing power over the coming years. 30 bloody percent. And who will get the dough: the upper classes again while the middle classes and the lower classes are being plucked. I will probably be unable to study because of the costs.

Americans: liberalism is NOT the left. Liberalism is the right-wing in Europe.
A newspaper actually claimed (based on official figures) that some people would lose 60 percent (http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/5597/Economie/article/detail/3343903/2012/11/07/Koopkrachtdaling-tot-60-procent.dhtml) of their purchasing power ! I will NEVER vote for a right-wing party again in my life. From now I will vote for the left.

[Bugarash 1893]

Right. :eek: It's about the about the amount of our lowest assistance benefits. In this country 580 euro's is the average fucking rent. :rolleyes: Not bankrupt ? They are slipping back to the status of a third world hellhole.

580 EUR minimum salary is alot for Southeastern Europe.
As I said,the minimum salary where I live,Macedonia is 8000 denars,9000 is 150 EUR.

Greece's was lowered from 750 EUR and Spain and Portugal have their minimum salary set at 580 EUR as well.

Which means that before being pushed to lower it,Greece had a higher minimum salary than Spain and Portugal!

[The Lawspeaker]

580 EUR minimum salary is alot for Southeastern Europe.
As I said,the minimum salary where I live,Macedonia is 8000 denars,9000 is 150 EUR.

Greece's was lowered from 750 EUR and Spain and Portugal have their minimum salary set at 580 EUR as well.

Which means that before being pushed to lower it,Greece had a higher minimum salary than Spain and Portugal!

The average minimum wage here is 1456.20 EUR these days.

[Bugarash 1893]

The average minimum wage here is 1456.20 EUR these days.

580 EUR in such a crisis and compared to the Netherlands cant be bad.

[The Lawspeaker]

580 EUR in such a crisis and compared to the Netherlands cant be bad.

It is when the costs of living are high and the costs of living in Greece are high. Remember that a lot of Greeks don't move out of their parent's house until they get married ? I am sure this is still taking place.

[kabeiros]

Greece`s high standard of living was a result of absurd amount of debt loans from ECB. Any country who gets over 300 billion Euros loans in less than 10 years turns into some kind of fake paradise, especially if they have less than 10 million population but this cant continue forever as we saw in Greece`s case. A bankruptcy is inevitable in that case.
Onur don't lie, Greece got 300.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 euros in just 10 days and the population is less than 10.000 people


And no, Greece will probably drop to the same league with Albania, Bulgaria and Romania when they officially announce their bankruptcy and return to drachma.When we announce our bankruptcy and return to drachma, we will try to build a healthy economy based on our own efforts, without EU dictators over our head. Tourists will prefer to come here for their holidays instead of the Muslim shithole that you call Turkey, you should rather pray to phall(ah)us we stay in the Eurozone...

[The Lawspeaker]

When we announce our bankruptcy and return to drachma, we will try to build a healthy economy based on our own efforts, without EU dictators over our head. Tourists will prefer to come here for their holidays instead of the Muslim shithole that you call Turkey, you should rather pray to phall(ah)us we stay in the Eurozone...
I am sorry but your economy has never been rosy. Not even when you had the drachma.

[Absinthe]

580 EUR minimum salary is alot for Southeastern Europe.
As I said,the minimum salary where I live,Macedonia is 8000 denars,9000 is 150 EUR.

Greece's was lowered from 750 EUR and Spain and Portugal have their minimum salary set at 580 EUR as well.

Which means that before being pushed to lower it,Greece had a higher minimum salary than Spain and Portugal!

The problem in Greece is that we may still have "large" salaries compared to the Balkans and Eastern Europe but the price ranges are not only Western European but in fact many basic commodities are more expensive than in Germany, France, Sweden, etc!

You cannot judge a salary by its absolute number alone but you have to see it as purchasing power. Even when the minimum salary in Greece was 700 euros, the purchasing power was ridiculous!

Imagine that rent alone costs 300 euros and above, you need about 100 euros per month just for heating (oil) during the winter months, an average phone bill is 30/month, my electricity costs 100/month (and I live in a 35sm apartment without a lot of appliances) etc....

Food is another story. I have compared super market prices in Greece, Germany, Sweden, and even Switzerland and some items are more expensive in Greece! :eek:

A carton of fresh milk, for example, costs about .80 or .90 in Germany (1lt) where as in Greece it costs 1.5 and above... Vegetables are expensive, even when they are local.
Meat is ridiculously expensive compared to other countries.

Having a cup of coffee in Athens costs about 3.5e on average whereas in W.Europe it ranges from 1.5 to 2.5 even in expensive cafes. Clothes, appliances and home stuff are expensive too.

Western Europeans are richer and yet they have thrift stores and second hand stores. For some reason we don't.

The only inexpensive things I can think of in Greece as compared to W.Europe is transportation, taxis and tobacco.
Transportation, however, is extremely chaotic and unreliable, and gasoline prices are so high practically very few people can afford to fill their tanks, nowadays.

[Bugarash 1893]

It is when the costs of living are high and the costs of living in Greece are high. Remember that a lot of Greeks don't move out of their parent's house until they get married ? I am sure this is still taking place.

Yeah well if you do simple maths it would be like this:

Avarage salary here is about 200 EUR.
The cost of living is maybe 2,5 times lower than the one in Greece.

If the avarage salary in Greece is 800 EUR,let a greek correct me if Im wrong...it means we are still living worse than the greeks!

Greeks talk about a lost generation,while here generations are lost before even being born!

Over here 90% of the families are families made out of 3 generations living under one roof!

Kids,middle aged,pensioners.

Greece is still a very wealthy country for the standard of this part of Europe.

You try to compare it with the Netherland who are among the richest in the world.

[The Lawspeaker]

Having a cup of coffee in Athens costs about 3.5e on average whereas in W.Europe it ranges from 1.5 to 2.5 even in expensive cafes. Clothes, appliances and home stuff are expensive too

Holy.... Scandinavian prices, eh ?

[The Lawspeaker]

Greece is still a very wealthy country for the standard of this part of Europe.
You're dreaming, Bugarash. Dreaming is nice but reality is much better. :thumb001:

[Absinthe]

I ought to add to these, other "hidden" factors.

Education for example is free in W.Europe but in Greece the educational system is entirely useless so it basically forces every family who wants to succeed in the national exams to pay for private lessons in institutions made especially for that purpose (to fill the gap between the public educational system and the national exams).

Health care is free in W/E but in Greece you have to pay "knife money" on top of everything else otherwise the doctors will let you die. Most of health services have stopped catering to the tax payers for free because the state owes them money.

And so on and so forth. Greece is really bankrupt and has been for quite some time now, they just keep us on life support but this situation is not going to improve because noone is willing to change.

[The Lawspeaker]

Health care is free in W/E but in Greece you have to pay "knife money" on top of everything else otherwise the doctors will let you die. Most of health services have stopped catering to the tax payers for free because the state owes them money.

.

Untrue. Not in every W/E country. We have a private healthcare system and it's really costly. My health insurance alone eats around a quarter of what I get each month.

[Flintlocke]

I go to university/dorm cafeterias, they have cheap coffee and snacks.

[Absinthe]

Holy.... Scandinavian prices, eh ?
A small beer bottle (330ml) -and a cheap one, like Heineken, costs 5 euros at an average Athenian bar. In Germany a pint of good beer costs 2 euros at most. Yes, we have Scandinavian prices and Southern salaries :p

[The Lawspeaker]

A small beer bottle (330ml) -and a cheap one, like Heineken, costs 5 euros at an average Athenian bar. In Germany a pint of good beer costs 2 euros at most. Yes, we have Scandinavian prices and Southern salaries :p

That's extortion... :eek: Here a decent pint costs you 3.50 (2.50 for Heineken) to 5.50.

[Absinthe]

I go to university/dorm cafeterias, they have cheap coffee and snacks.
Now that's an excuse for mingling with student girls :p

[Flintlocke]

Now that's an excuse for mingling with student girls :p

You caught me red handed :embarrassed:embarrassed

[The Lawspeaker]

You caught me red handed :embarrassed:embarrassed

So how many student girls have a little son or daughter now that can call you daddy ? ;)

[Bugarash 1893]

The problem in Greece is that we may still have "large" salaries compared to the Balkans and Eastern Europe but the price ranges are not only Western European but in fact many basic commodities are more expensive than in Germany, France, Sweden, etc!

You cannot judge a salary by its absolute number alone but you have to see it as purchasing power. Even when the minimum salary in Greece was 700 euros, the purchasing power was ridiculous!

Imagine that rent alone costs 300 euros and above, you need about 100 euros per month just for heating (oil) during the winter months, an average phone bill is 30/month, my electricity costs 100/month (and I live in a 35sm apartment without a lot of appliances) etc....

Food is another story. I have compared super market prices in Greece, Germany, Sweden, and even Switzerland and some items are more expensive in Greece! :eek:

A carton of fresh milk, for example, costs about .80 or .90 in Germany (1lt) where as in Greece it costs 1.5 and above... Vegetables are expensive, even when they are local.
Meat is ridiculously expensive compared to other countries.

Having a cup of coffee in Athens costs about 3.5e on average whereas in W.Europe it ranges from 1.5 to 2.5 even in expensive cafes. Clothes, appliances and home stuff are expensive too.

Western Europeans are richer and yet they have thrift stores and second hand stores. For some reason we don't.

The only inexpensive things I can think of in Greece as compared to W.Europe is transportation, taxis and tobacco.
Transportation, however, is extremely chaotic and unreliable, and gasoline prices are so high practically very few people can afford to fill their tanks, nowadays.

Know that the hell you know is much better than the one you dont!
You greeks arent aware how bad things can be,and they can be bad:D

Rent here is at least 150 EUR for an aparment of lets say 60 m2.
I know a friend of mine is renting 30 m2 to a student from the province for 100 EUR and he lives at the end of town!

For heating an apartment is almost 100 EUR per month!
Most people turned off the heating so the Skopje power plant pushed through such a law that people have to pay a compesation amount of some sort even when they're not using heating!
About 20 EUR if Im not wrong...

Electricity,Phone...everything you mentioned is no more than 2,5-3 times higher than what we have here!

I have compared it with Germany as well!
My relatives who live in Germany said the same as I concluded!
Many price tags in Germany are lower than the ones here!

You mentioned the milk,a carton of 1L fresh milk here is about 60 denars!
65 denars is 1 EUR!

You're right about the coffe though,I have had coffe in Greece and its several times higher than here,4 times to be exact!...the gasoline is alot higher in Greece as well.

[Absinthe]

I am so sorry to hear all that, I know things can get worse than in Greece. My previous post intended only to show that our salaries are not as high as they might seem to you due to the prices.

How do the people in FYROM cope with salaries of 150 euros and the prices that you mention? How do they pull it off?

[kabeiros]

Bugarash, ofcourse Fyrom is in a worse situation from Greece, it's natural. But you can't compare our economies, even if we had never been in the EU. Tourism alone brings as much money in Greece as your whole GDP.

[Flintlocke]

So how many student girls have a little son or daughter now that can call you daddy ? ;)

I'm bankrupt, court made me pay for their upbringing. :D:D

[AkisGreece]

Flintolocke,το καλοκαίρι έκλεισα θέση στην Κηφισιά,σε περίμενα να μπεις online να βγούμε και με έκλασες κανονικά.

[Flintlocke]

sorry akis, eixa faei ban gia 1 mhna epeidh plakwthika me tous tourkous edw mesa...

[Bugarash 1893]

I am so sorry to hear all that, I know things can get worse than in Greece. My previous post intended only to show that our salaries are not as high as they might seem to you due to the prices.

How do the people in FYROM cope with salaries of 150 euros and the prices that you mention? How do they pull it off?

Dont be sorry.
People here are sheep.
They deserve it.

Btw they are all happy with whats happening to Greece right now and on the other side deep down inside they admire greeks how are they protesting against it.

Well in the albanian regions is much better than in the rest.
Albanians are reciving high money influx from their members in the diaspora.

In Skopje it is dramatic but in the other parts of the country its much worse.
They live mostly out of the pensioners.

There are two sorts of pensions.
The so called first tranche and the second one.

One of them is 120 EUR-majority of pensioners recive this one and the higher one is little above 220,recived by a minority of pensioners.

So if you unite lets say two salaries plus one or two pensions there is a chance to pull through the month.

[iNird]

A small beer bottle (330ml) -and a cheap one, like Heineken, costs 5 euros at an average Athenian bar. In Germany a pint of good beer costs 2 euros at most. Yes, we have Scandinavian prices and Southern salaries :p


The high costs of beer amd coffee are probably due to Greek consumption. Maybe if Greeks didnt spend so much time at bars and cafes it would drive the price down.

Also you could drink Greek beer if you dont want to pay 5 euros......

[Bugarash 1893]

Bugarash, ofcourse Fyrom is in a worse situation from Greece, it's natural. But you can't compare our economies, even if we had never been in the EU. Tourism alone brings as much money in Greece as your whole GDP.

I would take Bulgaria and Serbia when comparing with Greece.

Bulgaria went bankrupt twice!
Early 90's and 1997!
It was 50 years under the iron curtain!

Serbia was in war for almost the entire 90's.

Greece was part of the western world,30 years it has been using EU funds and reciving all kinds of other financial help due to its geo-political location during the cold war.

No war no nothing.
Greece was lucky and used its chances.
While others were in a downfall,Greece advanced.

As for us here in Macedonia/FYROM,we here have always been less developed than the others.
Fiirstly due to many historical reasons.

[Taco]

It's bad in Greece. Dangerous place to live I know that from reading news.

[Bugarash 1893]

Some years ago if you were hearing the media you would though Greece is in a unseen economic pain,people running on the streets and screaming out of pain...

Then I went In Drama and saw full restaurants,coffee shops...

Then some months later there was the same story,greeks protest against new austerity,the media present it as Greece is in total chaos.

Then I was in Bulgaria and there was a TV report on the crisis on bulgarian TV.They interviewed a bulgarian woman working in Alexandropoli,Greece in the boutique business.

She said greeks were overreacting,said to the camera to film the situation in the restaurants,coffee's...he did,everything was full!

She said she had three stores in Bulgaria.
One in central Sofia and two in central Plovdiv but business was going slow so she had to close and ''come to bankrupt Greece'' as she said ironically.

A year ago I went to Solun/Thessaloniki..and thats when I really saw traces from the crisis...30% of the stores were closed.

I think that for the last year the situation in Greece bacame a real crisis while before that was just media barking.

[iNird]

It's bad in Greece. Dangerous place to live I know that from reading news.

Troll.

I would be more scared in any american inner city than i would be in Greece even if I was waiving an Albanian flag and shouting "death to Greeks."

[Absinthe]

The high costs of beer amd coffee are probably due to Greek consumption. Maybe if Greeks didnt spend so much time at bars and cafes it would drive the price down.

Pardon me but this is bollocks (and I see what you're trying to imply there...)

People have changed their lifestyle dramatically over the last 3 years.

I used to go out almost every night and have 4-5 beers on my own and pay for a taxi to return. Now I go out once every second week or so and I will order the cheapest thing on the menu, usually a soda (which still costs like, 3 euros).

Most people I know will do that. Cafes and bars in previously popular areas are empty and closing down one after another. And still the prices of drinks do not drop because they are controlled by monopolies.
The best they can do is give away special offers on certain nights such as 3 drinks for the price of 2 or something like that, but still people do not go out.

If you think Greeks today live the same way they used to before the crisis then you are gravely mistaken. Many people cannot even afford the basics.


Also you could drink Greek beer if you dont want to pay 5 euros......
Greek beer is equally expensive and most bars don't serve it anyway, probably because their profit margins are too low.

And by the way, do you suggest that anyone would prefer Heineken over any other beer if they had a choice? :p

[Annihilus]

Well you are not really a beer country, is wine so expensive too?

[iNird]

Pardon me but this is bollocks (and I see what you're trying to imply there...)

People have changed their lifestyle dramatically over the last 3 years.

I used to go out almost every night and have 4-5 beers on my own and pay for a taxi to return. Now I go out once every second week or so and I will order the cheapest thing on the menu, usually a soda (which still costs like, 3 euros).

Most people I know will do that. Cafes and bars in previously popular areas are empty and closing down one after another. And still the prices of drinks do not drop because they are controlled by monopolies.
The best they can do is give away special offers on certain nights such as 3 drinks for the price of 2 or something like that, but still people do not go out.

If you think Greeks today live the same way they used to before the crisis then you are gravely mistaken. Many people cannot even afford the basics.


Greek beer is equally expensive and most bars don't serve it anyway, probably because their profit margins are too low.

And by the way, do you suggest that anyone would prefer Heineken over any other beer if they had a choice? :p

So there is a monopoly on coffee products or beer? The beer is impkrted so I can understand the high costs even in FYROM heineken is expensive at a restaurant let alone at a club. But machiatto (and I know Greeks are big into Frappe) shouldnt cost that much. I think Greece has a cafe culture like most of the Balkans hence the reason they charge so much.

Anyways I assume you live in Athens which could explain the prices as well.

Ps:

I dont like beer but if I do drink it I prefer Corona :p

[Bugarash 1893]

It's bad in Greece. Dangerous place to live I know that from reading news.

Indeed

http://i.imgur.com/BDPvF.jpg

[Absinthe]

Well you are not really a beer country, is wine so expensive too?
Depends on whether it is bottled or not.

A glass of bottled wine may cost 3-6 euros, a bottle may cost 20-30 euros in a restaurant, a jar of house wine may cost around 8 euros a liter.

True we are not a beer or alcohol culture in general. But still that doesn't justify the prices...

[Onur]

580 EUR minimum salary is alot for Southeastern Europe.

580 EUR in such a crisis and compared to the Netherlands cant be bad.

Greece is still a very wealthy country for the standard of this part of Europe.
Do you have some kind of reading incomprehension?

Greece have no economy of her own and they get money from ECB to pay that 580 Euros to the people. This is not their own richness but others. It`s a debt money.

You say that the salary in Macedonia is 200 Euros. If Macedonia would get the same amount of loans which Greeks got, then your governments could pay 1000 Euros salary to you but would it represent the real wealth of Macedonia?

The salaries in Macedonia is getting paid by your state`s own wealth, by your internal economical power. In fact, Greece`s own economical power permits them to pay no more than ~300 Euros either. When they return to Drachma, we will probably see Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria level of salaries in Greece.


A small beer bottle (330ml) -and a cheap one, like Heineken, costs 5 euros at an average Athenian bar. In Germany a pint of good beer costs 2 euros at most. Yes, we have Scandinavian prices and Southern salaries :p
Absinth, this is an indirect consequence of high salary delivered by your governments in previous decade. You got shitloads of government employees, your politicians gets loans from ECB and paid that high salaries to you. As a result, your tradesmen kept increasing the prices of coffee, beer, tomatoes, bread etc. by adjusting the prices to the level of your previous fake wealth.

This was some kind of fake economical bubble in Greece created by EU in collaboration with your politicians and you Greek people was pretty content with this fantasy world `till the day you gone bust. Your people are moaning today because they don't want this fantasy world to end.

[Grizzly]

tvFVSfMBw04

Congrats to Greeks for standing up against the global banksters and trying to win their country back :thumb001:

[Bugarash 1893]

Do you have some kind of reading incomprehension?

Greece have no economy of her own and they get money from ECB to pay that 580 Euros to the people. This is not their own richness but others. It`s a debt money.

You say that the salary in Macedonia is 200 Euros. If Macedonia would get the same amount of loans which Greeks got, then your governments could pay 1000 Euros salary to you but would it represent the real wealth of Macedonia?


Currently its debt money but not before.

All high income economies kept a high budget deficit,especially Greece which had one of the highest growth rates in the eurozone so...

The problem or should I say the weakness of the greek economy is that half of its is made out of tourism and shipping.

[Absinthe]

So there is a monopoly on coffee products or beer?

I can't say if there is a monopoly on coffee products. What I know is that coffee is so freakishly expensive because the costs of running a cafe are so high. Rent for a cafe in a good area in Athens (e.g. near the Acropolis) may surpass 10000/month. In an average area a rent would range between 1000-2000euros/month I suppose.
Then you have the expensive costs for equipment. You must buy all the goods. And you must pay your waitresses (an average daily salary for a waitress in an Athenian cafe is -or used to be- 30euros/8hour shift).

That makes the cost of running a cafe so high that they needed to create huge profit margins for cheap beverages like coffee. This is where they make their money from basically as the rest of the beverages are non profitable basically.

I can totally understand that. What is really stupid, is that, if a cafe is not really a profitable business (as explained above), then why so many Greeks had to open their own cafes? :P

This is due to this ridiculously stupid trend of being "cool" when you own a cafe as opposed to owning a much more profitable business like a plumber service or a mini market etc.

Turkophagos had told me such a story of a whole family who used to own a very profitable home linen business and went bankrupt because the sons decided it would be cooler to open a huge cafe and invest all their money to a non profitable albeit "modern" business :p

[Graham]

I'd say Spain is in a worse situation, Because of the higher youth unemployment & the Catalonia, Basque movements.

[Absinthe]

Absinth, this is an indirect consequence of high salary delivered by your governments in previous decade. You got shitloads of government employees, your politicians gets loans from ECB and paid that high salaries to you. As a result, your tradesmen kept increasing the prices of coffee, beer, tomatoes, bread etc. by adjusting the prices to the level of your previous fake wealth.

This was some kind of fake economical bubble in Greece created by EU in collaboration with your politicians and you Greek people was pretty content with this fantasy world `till the day you gone bust. Your people are moaning today because they don't want this fantasy world to end.

Of course, this is what I (and others) keep saying every day... Thing is, now that salaries have been cut to half (even in the public sector) and more than half of young people are unemployed in the private sector, then why don't the prices drop? That is the paradox.

[Onur]

Currently its debt money but not before.
It was always debt money in Greece. Greece never had any economy of it`s own except tourism income and selling some olives.


especially Greece which had one of the highest growth rates in the eurozone so...
I explained 10 times only in this thread. Greece`s so-called economical growth was always FAKE created by the EU bubble and stats falsifications. If someone delivers 100s of billion Euros to Macedonia, then your country shows signs of economical growth too but it would be fake again.


The problem or should I say the weakness of the greek economy is that half of its is made out of tourism and shipping.
Croatia`s tourism and shipping income is quite comparable with Greece. At best, Greece`s wealth should be similar to Croatia at max but it should be less because Greece got 5 times more population than Croatia. Anything more than that, is a fake economical bubble created by loans.

[Absinthe]

It was always debt money in Greece. Greece never had any economy of it`s own except tourism income and selling some olives.

That's untrue.

Asides tourism, Greece had a flourishing agricultural economy, and some industry. All the factories that ever produced anything (from fabrics, to cement, to dairy products) either closed due to EU directives (that we needed to import those goods) or took their headquarters elsewhere due to the bureaucracy and high taxation in Greece.

But we were doing some baby steps towards growing up. And then it's like, the parents came and put the diapers back on and forced us to stay on the baby stroll and be mouth fed for decades, and of course most people liked that because it meant they would not work hard anymore and they would enjoy a pampered life.

[Bugarash 1893]

In FYRMacedonia we have 32% total unemployment.
Greeks even now arent anywhere near that.



Greek unemployment hits 25.4 pct in August, new record

1.27 million Greeks without work, up 38 pct from last year

http://photo.ekathimerini.com/kath/engs/img/BUSINESS/2012/11/jobless_waiting.jpg

Greece's jobless rate rose for a 39th consecutive month to a new record of 25.4 percent in August, more than double the euro zone average, Greece's statistics service ELSTAT said on Thursday.

A crippling, austerity-fuelled recession continued to take its toll on the labour market, putting Greek unemployment at more than double the euro zone average of 11.5 percent.

The jobless rate has more than tripled since the country's five-year economic slump began in 2008. It now stands at 58 percent for those aged between 15 and 24 years, compared with 20 percent in August 2008.

Greece's economy is estimated to have shrunk by about a fifth since then. The slump is expected to continue in 2013 when the government is set to take budget cuts and tax increases worth 9.4 billion euros as a pre-condition to receive more funds under its international bailout.

Greece's August jobless rate was the European Union's second highest, behind fellow euro zone sufferer Spain, whose unemployment rate stood at 25.5 percent, according to Eurostat.

The European Commission forecast this week that the Greek labour market would bottom out in 2013, with unemployment slipping to around 22 percent in 2014, the economy's first year of modest recovery after six consecutive years of recession. [Reuters]

[Onur]

Thing is, now that salaries have been cut to half (even in the public sector) and more than half of young people are unemployed in the private sector, then why don't the prices drop? That is the paradox.
You yourself explained the reason of why prices doesn't follow the dropping trend of your salaries;

The renting and business operating prices are still too high

You don't have an industry of your own. You don't produce vegetables, clothing, drinks, construction materials, furniture in Greece. You import those from EU instead.

And simply, they don't want their fantasy world to end. They don't wanna suffer more.


Unless you return to drachma, stop importing and start your own agriculture, raw material, machinery industries, you will continue to suffer.



Asides tourism, Greece had a flourishing agricultural economy, and some industry. All the factories that ever produced anything (from fabrics, to cement, to dairy products) either closed due to EU directives (that we needed to import those goods) or took their headquarters elsewhere due to the bureaucracy and high taxation in Greece.
I was mainly talking about post-EU period but i am sad to hear this.

I know EU is the devil and the entire economical policies of EU works in favor of German-Franco industries but does harm to others. These policies even managed to destroy Italian industry let alone Greek one.

[Queen B]

I am so sorry to hear all that, I know things can get worse than in Greece. My previous post intended only to show that our salaries are not as high as they might seem to you due to the prices.

How do the people in FYROM cope with salaries of 150 euros and the prices that you mention? How do they pull it off?
That's why they have the highest unemployment in Europe.
And that's why many of them have migrated already .


Btw they are all happy with whats happening to Greece right now and on the other side deep down inside they admire greeks how are they protesting against it.

This is such a brainless though of them. They are blinded by their hatred and they can't see that if Greece falls down they are directly affected by it


The high costs of beer amd coffee are probably due to Greek consumption. Maybe if Greeks didnt spend so much time at bars and cafes it would drive the price down.
Also you could drink Greek beer if you dont want to pay 5 euros......
Drink beer has the same price as the rest of beers, actually.
Mythos and Fix are almost the same price in every bar.
The price doesn't have to do with the consumption, I think.
There are significant differences with the whole coffee-story with other countries.
F.e. when I was in Germany, noone would sit in a cafe for more than 20 minutes, while here if you don't stay at a cafeteria for 1.5 hour, isn't long enough.
Also,the more down-town a cafe it is, the more expensive it gets, and itsn't solely for the ass-grabbing purpose, but the rents there are scyrocket high.

It's bad in Greece. Dangerous place to live I know that from reading news.

Its safe, I have no problem living here. Money wise, yes, but safety-wise, its very safe.


I used to go out almost every night and have 4-5 beers on my own and pay for a taxi to return. Now I go out once every second week or so and I will order the cheapest thing on the menu, usually a soda (which still costs like, 3 euros).

I found a cafe in Zakynthos where frape is 1.5€! Not a ''to-go'' one!
And in Syntagma, I think, one day (Tuesday?) they are lowering all the cafes the prices :D

[AkisGreece]

Flintolocke δεν είχες φάει ban,ούτε με Τούρκους είχες τσακωθεί.

Είτε δεν ήθελες να βγεις για οποιοδήποτε λόγο,είτε απλά νόμιζες ότι έλεγα ψέμματα.

[kabeiros]

I was mainly talking about post-EU period but i am sad to hear this.

I know EU is the devil and the entire economical policies of EU works in favor of German-Franco industries but does harm to others. These policies even managed to destroy Italian industry let alone Greek one.Oh my God, did you really write something not negative for Greece? And if you think like that why do you keep saying bullshit about how Greece exploited the EU, when in fact it was the other way around? You and your devoted follower Tuan very often contradict yourselves when it comes to Greek issues, you obviously hate Greeks with great passion

[Absinthe]

Flintolocke δεν είχες φάει ban,ούτε με Τούρκους είχες τσακωθεί.

Είτε δεν ήθελες να βγεις για οποιοδήποτε λόγο,είτε απλά νόμιζες ότι έλεγα ψέμματα.
O Flint όντως είχε μπαναριστεί κάποιο διάστημα εξ'αιτίας τσακωμού στο τούρκικο φόρουμ.... και μετά έκλεισε το φόρουμ για μεγάλο διάστημα και συνολικά απείχε αρκετούς μήνες...

[AkisGreece]

Επειδή συζητάτε για μπύρες,καλό θα ήτανε εφόσον θέλετε να συνεχίσετε να καταναλώνετε αλκοόλη,καταναλώστε μπύρα Βεργίνα.
Εϊναι από τη Ζυθοποιία Θράκης,σε μια εθνικά ευαίσθητη περιοχή...ο ΑΒ προσφέρει σε σχετικά φτηνή τιμή κουτάκια των 8.


Η μπύρα Heineken,είναι Ολλανδικών συμφερόντων και η Ολλανδία παραδοσιακά μια φιλοτουρκική χώρα εδώ και αιώνες.

Μην αγοράζετε ξένα προϊόντα.

[kabeiros]

Έχεις καμιά πρόταση για να αντικαταστήσουμε τον Nescafe?

[Bugarash 1893]

There must be a strong Greece because Greece is one of the gate keepers.

Turkey wants the three main countries in the balkans Bulgaria,Greece and Serbia to be on their knees so they can spread their influence.

Kosovo,Albania,FYROM and Bosnia will just accept turkish dominance without firing a bullet...

Montenegro and Croatia would be easily taken over.

Only these three states remain.
But in reality it is only Bulgaria and Greece.

[Osprey]

I can't say if there is a monopoly on coffee products. What I know is that coffee is so freakishly expensive because the costs of running a cafe are so high. Rent for a cafe in a good area in Athens (e.g. near the Acropolis) may surpass 10000/month. In an average area a rent would range between 1000-2000euros/month I suppose.
Then you have the expensive costs for equipment. You must buy all the goods. And you must pay your waitresses (an average daily salary for a waitress in an Athenian cafe is -or used to be- 30euros/8hour shift).

That makes the cost of running a cafe so high that they needed to create huge profit margins for cheap beverages like coffee. This is where they make their money from basically as the rest of the beverages are non profitable basically.

I can totally understand that. What is really stupid, is that, if a cafe is not really a profitable business (as explained above), then why so many Greeks had to open their own cafes? :P

This is due to this ridiculously stupid trend of being "cool" when you own a cafe as opposed to owning a much more profitable business like a plumber service or a mini market etc.

Turkophagos had told me such a story of a whole family who used to own a very profitable home linen business and went bankrupt because the sons decided it would be cooler to open a huge cafe and invest all their money to a non profitable albeit "modern" business :p

Sorry but i don't buy this. He ruined his business just because it was 'cool'?

[Queen B]

Sorry but i don't buy this. He ruined his business just because it was 'cool'?
Yes.
There are many people that chose more ''prestigious'' jobs, even though they don't earn much money.
I know many people in Zakynthos, that abandon agriculturals just for having a cooler job.
Not anymore though, they all recently return to this..

[Anusiya]

Yes.
There are many people that chose more ''prestigious'' jobs, even though they don't earn much money.
I know many people in Zakynthos, that abandon agriculturals just for having a cooler job.
Not anymore though, they all recently return to this..

And that is a bad thing in its own way, because we are considered a developed country and should be getting "prestigious" jobs, while immigrants pick the harder and more common ones. Unless an office job using an office suite is considered a prestigious job.

We should be following Germany's post-war example.

[Onur]

There must be a strong Greece because Greece is one of the gate keepers.

Turkey wants the three main countries in the balkans Bulgaria,Greece and Serbia to be on their knees so they can spread their influence.

Kosovo,Albania,FYROM and Bosnia will just accept turkish dominance without firing a bullet...

Montenegro and Croatia would be easily taken over.

Only these three states remain.
But in reality it is only Bulgaria and Greece.
:D OK then, the horde is coming, be prepared!!!

soJEQx8ATww

:picard1::picard1::picard1:

[Bugarash 1893]

:D OK then, the horde is coming, be prepared!!!

:picard1::picard1::picard1:

Why you always try to push it through as a joke?

There are a series of evidence that you have an agenda.

Ottomans came here by force and they had to be kicked out by force.
Russians came in Central Asia by force and left in peace.

That is the difference between a nation like Russia and you.

[MfA_]

:D OK then, the horde is coming, be prepared!!!

soJEQx8ATww

:picard1::picard1::picard1:

i think i've just seen IM is beating drum :D

[Onur]

mm8XOJ0myds

[Graham]

Think we'll see a dead Farage soon, heart attack in the mountains or faulty car breaks. lol

[Bugarash 1893]

Onur,dont worry about Greece.

Only a idiot can feel sorry for the greeks.
They still have a higher standard of living than Turkey.

Even the current budget cuts they are taking wont bring them down.

Greece is EU's kid,the EU will never let Greece fall.

[Prince Carlo]

Depends on whether it is bottled or not.

A glass of bottled wine may cost 3-6 euros, a bottle may cost 20-30 euros in a restaurant, a jar of house wine may cost around 8 euros a liter.

True we are not a beer or alcohol culture in general. But still that doesn't justify the prices...

A botlle of Vodka in Zakynthos = 30 euros.
A botlle of Vodka in Rome = 10 euros.

:bored:

[The Lawspeaker]

Those prices make it seem like a very good reason to avoid Greece as a tourist destination. I am not willing to MORE money then I would have to pay at home for FEWER services. I'll gladly take my tourist euro's somewhere else.

[Queen B]

Those prices make it seem like a very good reason to avoid Greece as a tourist destination. I am not willing to MORE money then I would have to pay at home for FEWER services. I'll gladly take my tourist euro's somewhere else.

Α beer in Zakynthos 3-6 Euros. A beer in Laganas 1.5€

Btw, what makes you think that you are welcomed anyway?

[The Lawspeaker]

Α beer in Zakynthos 3-6 Euros. A beer in Laganas 1.5€

Btw, what makes you think that you are welcomed anyway?

Because I would bring my euro's, thank you very much. :thumb001: But o.k: thank you for making your own country look so incredibly unattractive as a tourist destination now. You're doing the German and French bankers a great favour. 3 to 6 bloody euro's - if I would have that here in the Netherlands I would go to another pub so I am going to another country where I am welcomed as a visitor and where they will very happily take my tourist euro's.

That's the price, dandelion, life is a market and with such prices and such an attitude Greece doesn't have what it takes.

[Queen B]

Because I would bring my euro's, thank you very much. :thumb001: But o.k: thank you for making your own country look so incredibly unattractive as a tourist destination now. You're doing the German and French bankers a great favour.

I welcome people that come here to see my country, enjoy the beauty of it, and have a nice time here. I don't welcome smartasses that they are riding their high-horse, thinking that they are doing us a favor of coming here and waiting for ass-licking in order to visit our place.

If you prefer to spend your precious ''well earned'' money somewhere else, go and give it somewhere else.

Fortunately, we had plenty of Dutch people visiting Zakynthos this year, and did NOT carried this arrogant attitude of yours.

[The Lawspeaker]

Fortunately, we had plenty of Dutch people visiting Zakynthos this year, and did NOT carried this arrogant attitude of yours.
Then they are idiots that let themselves be overcharged. Fortunately I will not be that daft. My arrogance is more than justified: you rely on us to bring in the money and yet you have that pathetic attitude against my kin and countrymen (you should indeed be VERY thankful that we helped you out). Act in the same way against tourists and they will start telling people different stories when they go home.

I will visit the Acropolis when they rebuild it in Berlin - when Greece fails off to pay it's debts.

[Queen B]

Then they are idiots that let themselves be overcharged. Fortunately I will not be that daft. My arrogance is more then justified: you rely on us to bring in the money and yet you have that attitude. Act in the same way against your tourists and they will start telling people different stories when they go home.

Overcharge ? The same prices that exist for you, exist for us. And actually, in touristic places its even cheaper. In a Greek bar you ll find the beer 3-6€ while in Laganas you will find it 1.5€
That's the prices that exist in Greece, the whole year, for everyone.

Unlike what you think, all of tourists I've spoken to left with very good impressions about Greece and Greeks.
Because they act civilized, and don't think that we have to lick their asses to bring their money.

Maybe- they value their money different than you, because they have worked to earn it, who knows .

Anyway, if you don't want to come here, don't come, you think that we care?
We care about tourists that come to visit places, and give-and-take from their trips.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Α beer in Zakynthos 3-6 Euros. A beer in Laganas 1.5€

Btw, what makes you think that you are welcomed anyway?

I can buy 2 six-packs here for 6 euros :P

[Queen B]

I can buy 2 six-packs here for 6 euros :P
Me too, from a super-market.
I m talking about bars.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Me too, from a super-market.
I m talking about bars.

For 6 Euros I can pay two rounds for 3 people in those fancy bars Westerners visit here in Sarajevo. :P

[Queen B]

For 6 Euros I can pay two round for 6 people here in Sarajevo in those fancy bars Westerners visit. :P
Lucky you, it isn't that cheap here :(

[morski]

For 6 Euros I can pay two rounds for 3 people in those fancy bars Westerners visit here in Sarajevo. :P

I seriously doubt that.:)

Ok. Three is more likely.