Balkan DNA

[Gjenerali]

Furthermore, our Greek samples (and to a lesser degree, the Macedonians) share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly due to smaller eects of the Slavic expansion in these populations.

Source (http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.3815v2.pdf)


HLA-A, HLA-B, HLA-C, HLA-DRB1 and HLA-DQB1 genotyping was performed in a sample of Albanian population from Kosovo. The comparison of the respective allele frequencies through F (st) analysis resulted in a close relationship with the Albanians from Albania, the Bulgarians, FYROM Macedonians and Greeks, while the other neighbouring populations are slightly more distant.


Source (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22726262)

Genetically i would divide the Balkans into two sides. Southern Balkanites and Northern Balkanites.

Southern Balkanites would consist of: Albanians( incl.Kosovars), Greeks and Bulgarians(incl.Macedonians). These groups seems to be genetically closer to eachother than with the rest of Europeans. This means that they share most of their past ancestors and phenotypically they are probably closer to eachother too.

Northern Balkanites: Serbs(maybe Montenegrins too), Croats, Bosniaks and to a lesser degree Slovenians.

[Vojnik]

Southern Balkanites would consist of: Albanians( incl.Kosovars), Greeks and Bulgarians(incl.Macedonians). These groups seems to be genetically closer to eachother than with the rest of Europeans. This means that they share most of their past ancestors and phenotypically they are probably closer to eachother too.

Northern Balkanites: Serbs(maybe Montenegrins too), Croats, Bosniaks and to a lesser degree Slovenians.

I would love to see what Rusty says about this.

[Ushtari]

^^You are an assimilated Albanian

[Alenka]

Are there any graphs with plots/clusters to see?

[Gjenerali]

I would love to see what Rusty says about this.

I didn't mean that in political manner anyway. It's funny how Albanian members here think of themself closer to Croats, Bosniaks than Macedonians, Bulgarians and Greeks.:picard1:

[Vojnik]

^^You are an assimilated Albanian

Are you talking to me or Gjenerali?

[Trun]

Romanians are in between I suppose, a bit closer to the Southern.

[Vojnik]

I didn't mean that in political manner anyway. It's funny how Albanian members here think of themself closer to Croats, Bosniaks than Macedonians, Bulgarians and Greeks.:picard1:

My comment wasn't political. Welcome to the forum btw. :)

[Ushtari]

Are you talking to me or Gjenerali?
you

[Vojnik]

you

Ye, I'm proud of it. :thumb001:

[Trun]

What I should add is that Bulgarians are close only to Northern Greeks, not to all Greeks.

[Rastko]

Nothing very surprising

[Gjenerali]

What I should add is that Bulgarians are close only to Northern Greeks, not to all Greeks.

There is no mention of Northern or Central or Southern Greeks. Cretans and Cypriots are not really Greek.

[Vojnik]

There is no mention of Northern or Central or Southern Greeks. Cretans and Cypriots are not really Greek.

Yeah. I think mainly mainland Greeks, not Islander Greeks who are more levantine.

[Panopticon]

The samples for the study are very small in southern and eastern Europe. And as we can see on the table, the larger the sample size, the smaller the common shared ancestry there is. That includes genetically isolated and (relatively) uniform people like the Irish. Most of the samples were also taken from immigrants living in the same areas. In the case of Albanians, the fact that most immigrants come from the more homogeneous villages rather than the more heterogeneous towns and cities could have an effect.

http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t444/Dukh92/Ancestry-relation-cross-population1_zpsd8aea33e.png

What I found more interesting is that the Italians shared far more common ancestry with Albanians than with anyone else.

[Gjenerali]

^ There is 24 Albanians there. The sharing between Italians and Albanians is between year 500 and 1500. So Albanian migration during Roman and Ottoman times explains the common ancestry. Otherwise Albanians seems to be genetically quite close to Macedonians, Bulgarians and Greeks just as the abstract of the other study explains.

[Insuperable]

Russians have a good factor of shared IBD blocks for such a large country.

[Panopticon]

^ There is 24 Albanians there. The sharing between Italians and Albanians is between year 500 and 1500. So Albanian migration during Roman and Ottoman times explains the common ancestry. Otherwise Albanians seems to be genetically quite close to Macedonians, Bulgarians and Greeks just as the abstract of the other study explains.

That's still a small sample size. Compare it to smaller populations with larger samples and there are clear signs of more heterogeneousness. And there's a likelihood of those samples being from a few concentrated and homogeneous areas.

Albanian migration to Italy was never that incredibly large. Quite many migrated during the Ottoman invasion, but it was sporadic and not continuous. Migration during the Roman empire, no not really. There was plenty of migration into Italy from other places which were probably more numerous.

Moreover, Kosovars, with a larger sample size than Albanians from Albania, share less ancestors than the latter. This is despite the high population density, and the fact that Kosovars to a great extent are migrants from isolated and homogeneous areas.


Russians have a good factor of shared IBD blocks for such a large country.

I think that is greatly due to the very small sample size. Six individuals for a nation that numbers over a hundred million is unfathomably minuscule. Take also into consideration that there has been plenty of migration into Russia and plenty of assimilation of other people.

[Anusiya]

That's still a small sample size. Compare it to smaller populations with larger samples and there are clear signs of more heterogeneousness. And there's a likelihood of those samples being from a few concentrated and homogeneous areas.

Albanian migration to Italy was never that incredibly large. Quite many migrated during the Ottoman invasion, but it was sporadic and not continuous. Migration during the Roman empire, no not really. There was plenty of migration into Italy from other places which were probably more numerous.

You are ommitting force migrations to Rome, ought to slavery. Illyria was essentially enslaved and Romanized.

[Panopticon]

You are ommitting force migrations to Rome, ought to slavery. Illyria was essentially enslaved and Romanized.

So were many other areas, and for a longer time. Enslavement is the wrong word. Illyrians were given autonomy under certain conditions. The contribution Illyrians made were mostly made up of soldiers, in particular elite soldiers.

[Gjenerali]

That's still a small sample size. Compare it to smaller populations with larger samples and there are clear signs of more heterogeneousness. And there's a likelihood of those samples being from a few concentrated and homogeneous areas.

Albanian migration to Italy was never that incredibly large. Quite many migrated during the Ottoman invasion, but it was sporadic and not continuous. Migration during the Roman empire, no not really. There was plenty of migration into Italy from other places which were probably more numerous.


Here is your answer!


You are ommitting force migrations to Rome, ought to slavery. Illyria was essentially enslaved and Romanized.



And the study just confirms what the previous studies have concluded. Small sample size is no problem here.

Btw can you link a source where it says that the samples are taken from immigrants which hailed from villages. Villages in Albania/Kosovo don't contain homogenous populations at all.

[safinator]

^ There is 24 Albanians there. The sharing between Italians and Albanians is between year 500 and 1500. So Albanian migration during Roman and Ottoman times explains the common ancestry. Otherwise Albanians seems to be genetically quite close to Macedonians, Bulgarians and Greeks just as the abstract of the other study explains.
There were a lot of Albanians in those places too especially in Greece.
Not much in Bulgaria.

[Gjenerali]

There were a lot of Albanians in those places too especially in Greece.

The similarity with Greeks is easily explained by similar male lineages at both populations. High J2, EV-13 and R1b-L23+(Anatolian modal type).

So Southern Balkanites are mostly Early Neolithic+ Indo-European(including Slavic admixture) and Iron Age Anatolian admixture. It just fits perfectly.

[Queen B]

There is no mention of Northern or Central or Southern Greeks. Cretans and Cypriots are not really Greek.

:picard2:

[Anusiya]

:picard2:

It's ok. They are learning. :D

[Panopticon]

Here is your answer!

I have already answered that.


And the study just confirms what the previous studies have concluded. Small sample size is no problem here.

Btw can you link a source where it says that the samples are taken from immigrants which hailed from villages. Villages in Albania/Kosovo don't contain homogenous populations at all.

Sample size is always an issue. There was one study, which we only have an abstract for.

Villages in Albania and Kosova are quite homogeneous, villages most often are in comparison to urbane settlements. The source you posted noted that immigrants may come from the same village. The samples were all from England. I think Albanians are immigrants in England. It's speculative to say they all hail from the same village, but Albanian migrants are in general from villages rather than cities.

[Gjenerali]

:picard2:

I mean they are more Minoan in ancestry. I should have phrased my post better.


I have already answered that.



Sample size is always an issue. There was one study, which we only have an abstract for.

Villages in Albania and Kosova are quite homogeneous, villages most often are in comparison to urbane settlements. The source you posted noted that immigrants may come from the same village. The samples were all from England. I think Albanians are immigrants in England. It's speculative to say they all hail from the same village, but Albanian migrants are in general from villages rather than cities.

Not if we compare various studies which give us similar results. Anyway you probably expected some Central European clustering of Albanians lol. That is why you keep mentioning the "sample size" as excuse.

And villages don't contain homogenous populations at all. That is just your wishfull excuse.

[Guapo]

Nothing very surprising

What's wrong with you? This is the biggest thing since the discovery of America...cocky croats.

[Guapo]

I mean they are more Minoan in ancestry. I should have phrased my post better.



Not if we compare various studies which give us similar results. Anyway you probably expected some Central European clustering of Albanians lol. That is why you keep mentioning the "sample size" as excuse.

And villages don't contain homogenous populations at all. That is just your wishfull excuse.

Ignore him shok, he's an albanized Serb.

[Panopticon]

Not if we compare various studies which give us similar results. Anyway you probably expected some Central European clustering of Albanians lol. That is why you keep mentioning the "sample size" as excuse.

And villages don't contain homogenous populations at all. That is just your wishfull excuse.

"Various studies" implies that there is a plurality of studies giving us the same results. Similar studies are in fact very scant.

I had read this before it was posted here, several months before actually. You are accusing me of having an agenda, i.e. an ad-hominem argument. Honestly, I don't; I just prefer to make conclusions from better studies. Sample size isn't an excuse, it's an honest and valid criticism, your critique of my skepticism is neither.

Villages are more often of relative homogeneousness. It is wishful thinking on your part that they are not. That doesn't mean they are completely homogeneous and that there is not any diversity, but they are to a large extent homogeneous. Village populations often descend from a founder and a few families, and they have little population influx but large population emigration. Urbane settlements on the other hand consist of diverse populations from all over. I should not have to tell you this.

[Gjenerali]

"Various studies" implies that there is a plurality of studies giving us the same results. Similar studies are in fact very scant.

I had read this before it was posted here, several months before actually. You are accusing me of having an agenda, i.e. an ad-hominem argument. Honestly, I don't; I just prefer to make conclusions from better studies. Sample size isn't an excuse, it's an honest and valid criticism, your critique of my skepticism is neither.

Villages are more often of relative homogeneousness. It is wishful thinking on your part that they are not. That doesn't mean they are completely homogeneous and that there is not any diversity, but they are to a large extent homogeneous. Village populations often descend from a founder and a few families, and they have little population influx but large population emigration. Urbane settlements on the other hand consist of diverse populations from all over. I should not have to tell you this.

lulz. I knew you will come up with one of your backed up words "ad-hominem" "straw-man".

As long as these studies give similar results you will always try to dismiss them or find any excuse. The reasons are obvious, no need to repeat myself.

And link the paragraph where it says the samples are taken from villagers particularly from people of the same village. They are not so dumb to make such a basic mistake so your skepticism/criticism should be taken with a grain of salt.

Anyway it is hard to argue with people who already have preconceived belief over something.

[Guapo]

:popcorn:

[Panopticon]

lol. I knew you will come up with one of your backed up words "ad-hominem" "straw-man". As long as these studies give similar results you will always try to dismiss them or find any excuse. The reasons are obvious no need to repeat myself.

And link the paragraph where it says the samples are taken from villagers particularly from people of the same village. They are not so dumb to make such a basic mistake so your skepticism/criticism should be taken with a grain of salt.

It was an ad-hominem as you used an argument against my persona (and an appeal to motive). Noting logical fallacies is accepted in argumentation. What studies? You mention studies, but there is only one other to mention, of which we only have an abstract. I'm not simply dismissing them.

I never claimed the samples were villagers for certain. The samples are taken from Albanian migrants in England and Switzerland. The Albanians that migrated out of their home country were most often villagers. And the case was very often that there were plenty of migrations out of specific villages, especially in the case of Albania where there are villages that have almost been deserted due to migration.

What do you know about how stupid or how smart they are? They have little control of where their sample comes from as they are sampling immigrants. Furthermore, what you are doing is pleading to infallibility of the source.


A concern about our results is that the European individuals in the POPRES dataset were all sampled in either Lausanne or London. This might bias our results, for instance, because immigrant communities may originate mostly from a particular small portion of their home population, thereby sharing a particularly high number of common ancestors with each other.

[Gjenerali]

^ I am not in a mood replying to you since it is obviously like talking to a brick wall. I remember last time you were arguing of how green eyes are dominant on Albanians while in reality that eye colour is rare anywhere in the world. So have a good time Mr.Rational Mind.:tongue

[Albion]

Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece and Cyprus are essentially West Asian along with Anatolia.
Albania is rather odd though.

[Guapo]

^ I am not in a mood replying to you since it is obviously like talking to a brick wall. I remember last time you were arguing of how green eyes are dominant on Albanians while in reality that eye colour is rare anywhere in the world. So have a good time Mr.Rational Mind.:tongue

^Who was this masked man?

[Dacul]

Romanians are in between I suppose, a bit closer to the Southern.

I doubt.
From how moldovans are looking they have mostly slavic admixture,from how people from Transylvania are looking they have mostly germanic+slavic admixture.
As for south romanians,they are very diverse I think.

[Prince Carlo]

Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece and Cyprus are essentially West Asian along with Anatolia.

:picard1:

Then why don't they form a cluster with West Asians?