Who are Hungarians?

[Loki]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oiGBB1pQtw

[Corvus]

That`s how they view themselves:

Hungarian Turanism (Hungarian: Turanizmus) is a Hungarian nationalist political ideology which stresses the alleged origins of the Hungarian people in the steppes of Central Asia ("Turan") and the affinity and origin of the Hungarians with Asian peoples such as the Turkic peoples, Huns etc.

The Hungarians were nomads before the Hungarian conquest of the Carpathian Basin and their culture was similar to other Turkic steppe peoples. However, their Central Asian origin is not supported by academic researches. They prefer a Uralic homeland (mainly on linguistic grounds and recent genetic researches) rather than a Central Asian. The ancient relations of the Hungarians and their interactions with other equestrian nomadic peoples are still debated issues. Despite the Hungarian Academy of Sciences having always rejected the Turanic origin theory, it gained wide currency among the Hungarian political right in the years between the two world wars and became an element in Hungarian fascist ideology.

Extremist turanists have even emphasized “ties of ancestry” with the Tibetan, Japanese, and Korean peoples or the ancient Sumerians. The idea of the necessity for "Turanian brotherhood and collaboration" was borrowed from the "Slavic brotherhood and collaboration" idea of Panslavism.

The leader of the Hungarian fascist Arrow Cross Party, Ferenc Szálasi, believed in the existence of a "Turanian-Hungarian" race (which included Jesus Christ). The idea was a key part of his ideology of "Hungarism".

In Hungary some fascists (and non-fascists) tried to link the ancestors of the Hungarians to Timur, the Ottomans and Japan, which some Hungarians of the 1930s described as the 'other sword of Turan' (the first sword being Hungary).
“ While some Hungarian Turanists went as far as to argue they were racially healthier than and superior to other Europeans (including Germans, who were already corrupted by Judaism), others felt more modestly, that as Turanians living in Europe, they might provide an important bridge between East and West and thus play a role in world politics out of proportion of their numbers or the size of their country. This geopolitical argument was taken to absurd extremes by Ferenc Szálasi, head of the Arrow Cross-Hungarist movement, who believed that, owing to their unique historical and geographical position, Hungarians might play a role equal to, or even more important than, Germany in building the new European order, while Szálasi's own charisma might eventually help him supersede Hitler as leader of the international movement.

The right-wing Jobbik party and its president Gábor Vona are uncompromising supporters of Turanism and Pan-Turkism (The ideology of Jobbik considers Hungarians as a Turkic nation.)

[Midori]

Hungarian Turanism (Hungarian: Turanizmus) is a Hungarian nationalist political ideology which stresses the alleged origins of the Hungarian people in the steppes of Central Asia ("Turan") and the affinity and origin of the Hungarians with Asian peoples such as the Turkic peoples, Huns etc.

*sigh* Yeah, and I'm a purple unicorn.

[Anusiya]

If they are from the Turanic steppes, then why don't they go there?

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

If they are from the Turanic steppes, then why don't they go there?

Oh come on..You guys told this nonsense to us ..now to Hungarians ? :D
Be realistic please :)

[Tabiti]

If they are from the Turanic steppes, then why don't they go there?
Only after you return back to Africa;)

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Only after you return back to Africa;)

All mankind? :D
Together with Greeks..

[Corvus]

Hungarians are a healthy mix of Huns and Aryans.
It is also reflected in the English term of the name "Hungaryans" This cannot be a coincidence.
So in all aspects an excellent genetic stock.

[Geminus]

Hungarians are a healthy mix of Huns and Aryans.
It is also reflected in the English term of the name "Hungaryans" This cannot be a coincidence.
So in all aspects an excellent genetic stock.

Hungarians overlap pretty much with their neighbours genetically. Any non European or alleged Hunnic ancestry is very low afaik

[arcticwolf]

As Geminus said genetically they are close to their neighbors. The "problem" with self determination is that anyone can identify as anything they want, regardless of the facts. I may have a fantasy of being a descendant of Buddha, who is to say I'm not? He was predominantly R1a and so am I! There is the proof! :laugh:

Hungarians are of central European stock, and that's what they are.

[Onur]

The "problem" with self determination is that anyone can identify as anything they want, regardless of the facts. I may have a fantasy of being a descendant of Buddha, who is to say I'm not?
Hungarian link with Turanism is not based on fantasy but their 1500 year old culture, politics and their Eurasian language.

One cannot dismiss 1500 year old cultural tradition just because of supposed genetic connection with the neighboring peoples. Also this is not something unique to Hungarians. Everyone is more or less genetically related with his neighboring peoples. This is not something special.


For example, Poles are surely genetically related with Germans as much as Hungarians are. So, they should let go of their slavic language and heritage just because they are related with Germans? What an absurd thing this is!

[Corvus]

Hungarian link with Turanism is not based on fantasy but their 1500 year old culture, politics and their Eurasian language.

One cannot dismiss 1500 year old cultural tradition just because of supposed genetic connection with the neighboring peoples. Also this is not something unique to Hungarians. Everyone is more or less genetically related with his neighboring peoples. This is not something special.

That`s right, because we are not living in closed societies.
Turansim is more a cultural sign of solidarity

[arcticwolf]

Hungarian link with Turanism is not based on fantasy but their 1500 year old culture, politics and their Eurasian language.

One cannot dismiss 1500 year old cultural tradition just because of supposed genetic connection with the neighboring peoples. Also this is not something unique to Hungarians. Everyone is more or less genetically related with his neighboring peoples. This is not something special.


For example, Poles are surely genetically related with Germans as much as Hungarians are. So, they should let go of their slavic language and heritage just because they are related with Germans? What an absurd thing this is!

I knew you were to give us your expert opinion on this! :D

I fail to follow your logic, but then again you are very original thinker! ;)

As to Poles being related to Germans your assumptions are halfway true. Poles are related to East Germans not Germans in General. The reason being is that a large portion of East German population is of SLAVIC origin genetically. That's the reason we are related to them not because we are Germanic or have significant Germanic input, though there is some no denying that. Check the historical maps it will give you an idea how far west Slavic lands extended in the past in the area.

But on topic, so the language is the only thing that really links Hungarians outside of Europe? I thought it was Ugric in origin and not Turanic specifically, but I'm not an expert so dazzle me amigo. :p

[Onur]

I knew you were to give us your expert opinion on this! :D

As to Poles being related to Germans your assumptions are halfway true. Poles are related to East Germans not Germans in General.
I was just trying to point out your absurd logic, thats it. I have no intention show some expertise either.

OK, lets think the exact opposite of what i said then. So, according to your logic, we should call all the east Germans to embrace Polish slavic culture just because they are related with Poles genetically? If you think like that for Hungarians, then how about we apply your logic to east Germans too?

Are east Germans fantasizing about their Germanic culture just like Hungarians does for Turanism? Are they living in a lie while carrying Polish DNA?

I hope i was able to express how absurd your logic is but i am not sure whether you wanna understand me or not.


But on topic, so the language is the only thing that really links Hungarians outside of Europe? I thought it was Ugric in origin and not Turanic specifically, but I'm not an expert so dazzle me amigo. :p
I told you what connects them in my previous msg. Their 1000+ year old state, culture, politics and language. Ugric, Uralic are parts of the concept of Turanic, Turanism.

If you think Hungarian connection with Turanism is faint, then tell us what connects Poles to slavdom besides their language? Show us your culture`s strong connections to slavdom, so you can dazzle me now.



That`s right, because we are not living in closed societies.

Turansim is more a cultural sign of solidarity
Yes, thats what i wanted to say too.

[arcticwolf]

I was just trying to point out your absurd logic, thats it. I have no intention show some expertise either.

OK, lets think the exact opposite of what i said then. So, according to your logic, we should call all the east Germans to embrace Polish slavic culture just because they are related with Poles genetically? If you think like that for Hungarians, then how about we apply your logic to east Germans too?

Are east Germans fantasizing about their Germanic culture just like Hungarians does for Turanism? Are they living in a lie while carrying Polish DNA?

I hope i was able to express how absurd your logic is but i am not sure whether you wanna understand me or not.


I told you what connects them in my previous msg. Their 1000+ year old state, culture, politics and language. Ugric, Uralic are parts of the concept of Turanic, Turanism.

If you think Hungarian connection with Turanism is faint, then tell us what connects Poles to slavdom besides their language? Show us your culture`s strong connections to slavdom, so you can dazzle me now.



Yes, thats what i wanted to say too.


Culture? Hungarian culture is European. I doubt it has much in common with let's say Turkey.
I don't call East German Slavic. Culturally they are not, no argument here. Comparing East Germans living in the midst of German culture with Hungarians living in the midst of European culture, being genetically European but according to you clearly Turanic is a bit to say the least of a stretch. Can you see the difference?

Oh boy you couldn't have chosen a worse example amigo, how about Poles, Belorussians and Russians being almost identical genetically? You did not know that did you? How about very similar culture, way of thinking etc? I'm not even gonna mention Slavic Soul, because that you as non Slav will not be able to comprehend. ;)

You must be joking, if you compare Poles to Russian ties with the Hungary to Turkey ties. They are not even in the same category. Poles and Russians are the same people basically while Hungarians and Turks are very, very remote.

Don't get offended no one is an expert on everything and we all learn till the day we die. You are still young and have much to learn. :laugh:

[Onur]

You must be joking, if you compare Poles to Russian ties with the Hungary to Turkey ties. They are not even in the same category. Poles and Russians are the same people basically while Hungarians and Turks are very, very remote.
Russia subjugated Poland - check [for how many years?]
Turkey subjugated Hungary - check [for 150+ years]

The name of Hungarian state was Turkey for about 200 years `till their conversion to christianity. Their kings always crowned as "King of Tourkia". It`s written on their 1000 year old historical crown.

Not to mention both peoples started their journey to Europe from neighboring places. Turks from the central-east Caspian sea, Hungarians from the north of it.

Genetics wise, i don't think we are relative as much as Poles&Russians are. So you are right on that but maybe if Turks would fck Hungarians as much as Russians did to Poles during the subjugation, we would also be genetically related with them as much as you are with Russians :)

So, are you questioning our ancestral connection with Hungarians just because we didn't fck them as hard as Russians did to Poles while they subjugated Poland?

[Geminus]

The idea of Turanism is actually not really widespread. It's very speculative that the alleged "Turanian" people actually had a common origin.
The Hungarians may have their heritage as former Nomadic people, but now they are culturally and genetically part of Europe. The only real striking difference is their language.

[arcticwolf]

Russia subjugated Poland - check [for how many years?]
Turkey subjugated Hungary - check [for 150+ years]

The name of Hungarian state was Turkey for about 200 years `till their conversion to christianity. Their kings always crowned as "King of Tourkia". It`s written on their 1000 year old historical crown.

Not to mention both peoples started their journey to Europe from neighboring places. Turks from the central-east Caspian sea, Hungarians from the north of it.

Genetics wise, i don't think we are relative as much as Poles&Russians are. So you are right on that but maybe if Turks would fck Hungarians as much as Russians did to Poles during the subjugation, we would also be genetically related with them as much as you are with Russians :)

So, are you questioning our ancestral connection with Hungarians just because we didn't fck them as hard as Russians did to Poles while they subjugated Poland?

My goodness amigo, you don't think I'm gonna fall for that, do you? Just in case you think I might, here is two reasons I won't. ;)

I am a Buddhist and mind games don't work with me as I know the mind inside and out. The reactions/emotions you consciously or subconsciously imagine will arise in my mind never materialize. Not gonna go here over the mechanics how that works, meditate and you'll know for yourself.

Secondly, the Poles and Russians were basically the same just a short 1000 years ago, almost nothing has changed. Were the Russia never occupy Poland the genetic relationship would be the same.

The original Hungarians might have been from somewhere there, don't really matter, but contemporary Hungarians don't share almost any genetic material with those people any more. Hungarian culture is European, there is no doubt about it. I'm NOT denying their past, what I'm telling you is that the current population of Hungary is not Turanic.

But as I said, anyone can be anything they want, and if Hungarians themselves feel Turanic, that's alright by me.

Onur I don't hate Turkey or Turks, if that's what you think. I still remember as do other Poles that Turkey never accepted the Partitions of Poland. Relax amigo I'm not your enemy. Take a deep breath and read carefully. :D

[Onur]

The idea of Turanism is actually not really widespread. It's very speculative that the alleged "Turanian" people actually had a common origin.
The Turanist party of Jobbik gets more than %15 of Hungarian votes and their popularity is rising. They openly support leaving EU to create a Turanian union and still get that vote from Hungarians which is quite surprising in my terms.

We have a rightist party in turkey who appears like they are supporting turanist views but they cant get more than %13 here. They are not as hardcore as Hungarian Jobbik either. If they would be, then they couldn't even get 13% in Turkey either.



Onur I don't hate Turkey or Turks, if that's what you think. I still remember as do other Poles that Turkey never accepted the Partitions of Poland. Relax amigo I'm not your enemy. Take a deep breath and read carefully. :D
I know mate, and i like Polish people as i like you in the forum too. I am sorry if i sounded too harsh in my previous msg. It`s just you know, there is only one way to be genetically related with someone and it`s called as "fck" in English :)

[Corvus]

ogma #7: The theory of the "Finno-Ugrian" origin of Hungarians according to HUNMAGAYAR.ORG

The so-called "Finno-Ugrian" theory of the origin of the Hungarian people and language is closely modelled on the Indo-European "family tree" linguistic theory. As such, not only is the "Finno-Ugrian" theory fundamentally flawed, it was also developed during the 19th century when Hungary was under the foreign rule of the Austrian Habsburgs. As a result, this pseudo-scientific theory was part of the anti-Hungarian cultural policy specifically designed to weaken the national self-consciousness of the Hungarian people by distorting and falsifying their origins and history. This was the case under the Habsburg regime's policy of Germanization just as it was the case under the Soviet Communist regime's policy of Russification. It was therefore in the interest of these regimes to

"let the conquered Hungarians believe that they have an ancestry more primitive than that of the Indo-European peoples. In Habsburg times Hungarian children were taught that most of their civilization came from the Germans: today they are taught that their 'barbaric' ancestors were civilized by the educated Slavs." (Bobula, 1982)

According to the latest genetic research (Semino, 2000), the main Hungarian ancestral population has inhabited its current Carpathian homeland for at least 40 000 years, and is of Central Eurasian origin. The genetic markers most characteristic of the Hungarian population are also present in Eastern Europe and Central and South-Western Asia, and correspond to the known distribution and movements of the ancient Scythian and Hun peoples based on the historical and archeological evidence, thus substantiating the Hungarian-Scythian, Scythian-Hun and Hun-Magyar ethno-linguistic connections.

The genetic evidence also indicates that the genetic markers most characteristic of the Finno-Ugrians of Northern Europe, the Volga-Ural region, and Siberia are completely absent in the Hungarian population. Based on the latest linguistic, archeological, anthropological, and genetic research, Hungarians are therefore not of Finno-Ugrian origin, but the Finno-Ugrian ethno-linguistic group was formed under the dominant cultural influence of the Turanian peoples with whom the Finno-Ugrians came in contact, thus explaining the Hungarian-Uralic linguistic correlation.

[Géza]

Absolutley interesting is to read the sentences about us by non-Hungarians. :) I can tell for all you the Turanism is an isolated ideology from the past. Only just a part of us support it. We Hungarians have assimilated many Turkish ethnic groups in the Pontic Steppes and in the Carpathian-Basin too. These cause we have some relationship with the Ottoman Turks. This doesn't mean all of us came from Mongolia. We relate to our neighbours too. Many different origin theory circulate nowadays about us. I heard about Sumerian, Etruscian, Chaldean (they were Semites! :)), Amerindian, Parthian, Japanese, Korean, Atlantisian and Extraterral origin of us. :)

The Jobbik Party is a umbrella of many nationalist trend including Turanist, Christians, Pagans, White Nationalist, etc what are opposit ideologies in some apsect of view. Absolutely composit company they are. The glue is the patriotic nationalism.

[Stears]

Hungary was the only country in Europe which had no cultural roots with its pre-christian era past even in the late medieval age. We don't know exactly our own religion(s) mythology and the details symbol systems too. Very few artifacts existing from the past, that's why an average Hungarian nationalist is able to represent all of our symbols of the ancient past in a little forum-avatar.



That`s right, because we are not living in closed societies.
Turansim is more a cultural sign of solidarity

[Stears]

However most of our neighbours (Romanians serbians ukrainians etc...) have more genetic relations with the central Asians and turks.
How an you interpret that?


Absolutley interesting is to read the sentences about us by non-Hungarians. :) I can tell for all you the Turanism is an isolated ideology from the past. Only just a part of us support it. We Hungarians have assimilated many Turkish ethnic groups in the Pontic Steppes and in the Carpathian-Basin too. These cause we have some relationship with the Ottoman Turks. This doesn't mean all of us came from Mongolia. We relate to our neighbours too. Many different origin theory circulate nowadays about us. I heard about Sumerian, Etruscian, Chaldean (they were Semites! :)), Amerindian, Parthian, Japanese, Korean, Atlantisian and Extraterral origin of us. :)

The Jobbik Party is a umbrella of many nationalist trend including Turanist, Christians, Pagans, White Nationalist, etc what are opposit ideologies in some apsect of view. Absolutely composit company they are. The glue is the patriotic nationalism.

[Szegedist]

Hungary was the only country in Europe which had no cultural roots with its pre-christian era past even in the late medieval age. We don't know exactly our own religion(s) mythology and the details symbol systems too. Very few artifacts existing from the past, that's why an average Hungarian nationalist is able to represent all of our symbols of the ancient past in a little forum-avatar.

What about the Turul bird? Do you not know about it?

[Onur]

Hungary was the only country in Europe which had no cultural roots with its pre-christian era past even in the late medieval age. We don't know exactly our own religion(s) mythology and the details symbol systems too. Very few artifacts existing from the past, that's why an average Hungarian nationalist is able to represent all of our symbols of the ancient past in a little forum-avatar.
It`s because when you accepted christianity in medieval era, you were required to destroy whatever you had from your past life and former beliefs because your animalist, naturalist beliefs was considered as evil. You even had to destroy your script because runic writings was being demonized by associating it with sorcery, witchery. This was a simple tactic of early christians to erase people`s former beliefs and whatever they had about their former lives before christianity. This was their trick to speed up their assimilation into christendom and convert people as their serfs.

Everything you have about your pre-christian times discovered only in the past century and these are actually the ones which survived from the destruction.

You are not alone in this. Everything related with the Germanic tribes also discovered in the past century with archaeological researches because they suffered the same fate after christianity. Same thing happened to Bulgars too.


This is the reason of the lack of vast evidences and documents about your pre-christianity life.

[nelopj]

The Turul bird eventually was a symbol of the house of Arpad. It was learned by hungarians only with the modern nationalsim, it has nothing to do with the prehistory, culture and folklore of the actual hugnarians. Hungarian folk art doens't have Turuls, horse nomads and shit like that. Not even close.

There are some common, i dare to say beatiful, motifs:
http://tanulas.network.hu/blog/tanulas_klub_hirei/luko-gabor-a-magyar-nepmuveszet-jelkepei-jelentesenek-felterkepezoje
http://mondoka.hu/index.php?v_type=6&v_target=printer
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BKgUlK_6aJY/StrQ6heT8dI/AAAAAAAAADY/ua6BMTSMaQk/s320/magyar+n%C3%A9pm%C5%B1v%C3%A9szet.jpg

No turuls, no horses, no steppe.

[Szegedist]

The Turul bird eventually was a symbol of the house of Arpad. It was learned by hungarians only with the modern nationalsim, it has nothing to do with the prehistory, culture and folklore of the actual hugnarians. Hungarian folk art doens't have Turuls, horse nomads and shit like that. Not even close.

There are some common, i dare to say beatiful, motifs:
http://tanulas.network.hu/blog/tanulas_klub_hirei/luko-gabor-a-magyar-nepmuveszet-jelkepei-jelentesenek-felterkepezoje
http://mondoka.hu/index.php?v_type=6&v_target=printer
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BKgUlK_6aJY/StrQ6heT8dI/AAAAAAAAADY/ua6BMTSMaQk/s320/magyar+n%C3%A9pm%C5%B1v%C3%A9szet.jpg

No turuls, no horses, no steppe.

http://michelangelo.cn/download/02_Honfoglalas/8000%20YEARS%20eng.pdf

[Szegedist]

By the way to say that the Turul is a modern invention is very idiotic. What will you say next, that Holy Crown is also 19th century Romantic nationalist invention?

[Onur]

The Turul bird eventually was a symbol of the house of Arpad. It was learned by hungarians only with the modern nationalsim, it has nothing to do with the prehistory, culture and folklore of the actual hugnarians. Hungarian folk art doens't have Turuls, horse nomads and shit like that. Not even close.

There are some common, i dare to say beatiful, motifs:
http://tanulas.network.hu/blog/tanulas_klub_hirei/luko-gabor-a-magyar-nepmuveszet-jelkepei-jelentesenek-felterkepezoje
http://mondoka.hu/index.php?v_type=6&v_target=printer
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BKgUlK_6aJY/StrQ6heT8dI/AAAAAAAAADY/ua6BMTSMaQk/s320/magyar+n%C3%A9pm%C5%B1v%C3%A9szet.jpg

No turuls, no horses, no steppe.
Actually you just fell on your own trap here. Let me explain;

As you said above, these are your own folk art;

http://mondoka.hu/images/underline.gif

http://mondoka.hu/userdata/image/vardai/md01.jpg

These embroiders are tulip flowers. Tulips was unknown in whole Europe before 16th century and it was the Dutch ambassadors of Istanbul who brought the tulip (Turkish word) to Europe in late 16th century for the first time. In fact, tulips didn't exist in Anatolia either because Turks brought the tulip bulbs from central Asia when we migrated to Anatolia. Tulips was always the favorite pattern in Turkish folk art whether clothing, rugs, buildings etc. and tulip motifs also exists on the ancient rugs found in archeology sites Eurasia.

But interestingly, there was only one nation in Europe who also had this tradition of drawing tulips on their folk dresses and buildings like the Szekely doors (kapu in Turkish) even before the first tulip flowers ever brought to Europe. That nation is the Hungarians.

Actually the existence of tulip motifs on your folk art and Szekely doors is one of the biggest proof of your Eurasian origin. You brought this folk art from Asia like the Turks because it`s not possible for you to know the exact shape of tulip motifs when tulip flowers was nonexistent in Europe.


Here are some more examples from Hungarian folk art with tulips;

http://elohazak.com/images/fakapu/faragott%20fa%20kapu3.jpg

http://www.complex-line.com/images/stories/hungary/folkart/matyo-embroidery-4cl.jpg


And this is an example from Turkish folk art. 16th century silk rug from a palace in Istanbul;

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/6236/kumasb5jw8.jpg



I already did this discussion with someone else before, in a thread about Csangos;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?55795-Csangos

[Arbërori]

That looks like your regular Persian rug.:lol: Hungarians are white, but I have agreed with Szegedist before about the West ''abandoning'' this part of Europe to the barbaric mercy of the Ottomans.

[archangel]

Hungarians are some hardcore warrior type people love them:)

[nelopj]

... Tulips was unknown in whole Europe before 16th century and it was the Dutch ambassadors of Istanbul who brought the tulip (Turkish word) to Europe in late 16th century for the first time...

To sum it up.
Your reasoning it's based on the false assumption that tulips got into Europe only in the 16'th century with the ottomans.
WRONG. There are 4 species of wild tulips growing on the territory of old Hungary. The Hungarian Tulip (http://encyclopaedia.alpinegardensociety.net/plants/Tulipa/hungarica) it's restricted to some reservation and it's nearly extinct. They did not need nor the Ottomans, nor Asia to know tulpis.

By the way. Tulip it's just one of the ancestral flower motifs in the hungarian folklore. Afaik, all of them are native to Europe.

[Géza]

To sum it up.
Your reasoning it's based on the false assumption that tulips got into Europe only in the 16'th century with the ottomans.
WRONG. There are 4 species of wild tulips growing on the territory of old Hungary. The Hungarian Tulip (http://encyclopaedia.alpinegardensociety.net/plants/Tulipa/hungarica) it's restricted to some reservation and it's nearly extinct. They did not need nor the Ottomans, nor Asia to know tulpis.

By the way. Tulip it's just one of the ancestral flower motifs in the hungarian folklore. Afaik, all of them are native to Europe.

When I have seen your nickname I shitted bricks by the laugh. :rotfl