Greece`s love affair with the Kurdish terrorist organization of PKK

[Onur]

It`s no secret that Greek state always supported and still supports PKK in every way possible.

PKK founder/leader Abdullah Ocalan was living in Syria in 1999. Turkish state told Syrian authorities that if they don't arrest him and hand over to us in less than a week, Turkish army will enter their soil to capture him. Syrian authorities got scared and told PKK leader to leave Syria and then his journey to Europe begun. He secretly gone to Armenia and then Russia at first. He stayed there for a while and then he popped out in Rome, Italy. Turkey pressured Italy to arrest him but Italian authorities refused to do that. After some time, PKK leader made a deal with his good old friends, Greeks to offer him protection and hide him from Turkish authorities.

Theodoros Pangalos, foreign minister of Greece in 1999 took over this job with Greek intelligence and he invited PKK leader to stay in Greek islands in undercover. They also gave him Greek passport at that time. When Turkish secret service agents discovered that Greeks hiding him in Aegean islands, Greek government sent him to PKK terrorist training camps in southern Cyprus and also gave him Greek Cypriot passport in there. Here is Abdullah Ocalan`s Greek Cypriot password which has been found in Ocalan`s pocket when he was captured. Take a notice the fake name of kurdish Abdullah Ocalan, Mavros Lazaros :);
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac131/billbarbarian/61023_1191250998291_1738886789_372499_4482257_n.jp g


After strong pressure from Turkey, this time Greek government secretly sent him to the Greek embassy at Kenya, Nairobi. After few days, Israeli Mossad agents spotted him in the Greek embassy of Kenya and then informed Turkish intelligent service about this. Turkish agents made a deal with Kenyan authorities and finally captured him.



Capture of Öcalan and the resignation of Greek ministers
In 1999, Abdullah Öcalan, the leader of the PKK, was captured by the Turkish Intelligence Service agents in Nairobi, Kenya, while leaving the Greek Embassy. Öcalan was carrying both Greek and Cypriot passports.[7] Fearing a hostile Turkish reaction, three Greek ministers resigned (Foreign Minister Theodoros Pangalos, in charge of the attempt to hide Öcalan at the Greek Ambassador's residence in Kenya and to find him asylum; Interior Minister Alekos Papadopoulos, in charge of the Greek Intelligence Service involved in the operation; and Public Order Minister Philippos Petsalnikos, in charge of the Greek security forces which failed to stop the smuggling of Öcalan into Greece in January 1999).[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek–Turkish_relations

Greek ministers resign over Ocalan

Three Greek cabinet ministers have resigned over their handling of the Ocalan affair as protests continue by Kurdish demonstrators. The Foreign Minister Theodoros Pangalos and the ministers of public order and the interior were quitting amid accusations that they had "mishandled" the case.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/280000/images/_281934_greekres_text.gif

Mr Ocalan had been in the care of the Greek authorities in Kenya at the time of his capture on Monday in as yet unexplained circumstances.

Reacting to the resignations in Greece, Turkey`s PM; Mr Ecevit said Greece was paying the price for helping the PKK and that should be a lesson to any country which supports terrorism.

February 18, 1999

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/281816.stm

Greece dogged by Ocalan affair

The Greek Government said on Friday it would guarantee political asylum and protection for two female bodyguards of the Kurdish rebel leader, Abdullah Ocalan.

The two women and another female bodyguard with a Belgian passport were removed from the Greek diplomatic compound in Nairobi, Kenya, in an operation personally led by the secretary-general of the Greek Foreign Service.


Fresh embarrassment
However, their arrival in Athens promised fresh embarrassment for the government. Along with a Greek intelligence officer, Savvas Kalenderidis, who was sent to Nairobi to protect Mr Ocalan, they are claiming that the PKK leader was misled by the Greek Government and forced against his will to leave the safety of the embassy compound.

This contradicts the official version of events, which is that Mr Ocalan fell into Turkish hands after deciding against Greek Government advice to embark on negotiations with the Kenyans and leave the compound for the airport.

The extent of official help for the PKK leader and his organisation is at the heart of a growing row between Athens and Ankara. Turkey says the Greek Government organised training camps for PKK rebels and that it supplied ground to air missiles for use against the Turkish security forces.


Turkey uses advantage
Turkey says the allegations are based on statements made by Mr Ocalan during his interrogation by the state prosecutor. The Turkish Government is making use of the claims in an attempt to have Greece labelled as a state sponsoring terrorism - pressing home the advantage it secured by snatching the PKK leader from under the noses of the Greek security services.

It has also been claimed that the Greek Orthodox Church funded Kurdish rebels - a claim denied to the BBC by the head of the Church, Archbishop Christodoulos, who said that food had been supplied to Kurdish refugees, and nothing more.

The allegations of training camps for the PKK in Greece and arms supply by the Greek Government are not new. They have been regularly made in the past by Ankara and always denied by Athens.

February 27, 1999

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/287232.stm


As stated above, Greek church of Athens also supports PKK terrorists inside the training camps in Greece. During his trial, PKK leader Ocalan said that Greek church in Athens was raising funds for PKK and gave them around 3 million dollars in 1999.




`Greece fed weapons to Kurd rebels'
IT WAS exactly the ammunition Turkey's government wanted in its war of words with Greece over the capture of the Kurdish rebel Abdullah Ocalan.

A Turkish newspaper, Hurriyet, said he had told interrogators Greece supplied his Kurdish Workers' Party (PKK) with arms. The claim may embarrass the European Union, which yesterday called on Turkey to give Mr Ocalan a fair trial and to let international observers attend, as Greece is a member of the bloc.

"Greece has supported the PKK for years," the paper quoted Mr Ocalan as saying. "Greece even helped us with weapons and rockets." According to the article he said Greece supplied him with the false Cypriot passport with which he travelled to Kenya and supplied the PKK with training facilities.

The rebel leader, who was snatched from Kenya by Turkish special forces last week, is being interrogated before his trial. Turkey blames him for 37,000 deaths in the PKK's 14-year campaign to win Kurdish autonomy in south-east Turkey.

"Greece should be added to the list of countries that support terrorism and harbour terrorists," the Turkish President, Suleyman Demirel, said, according to Turkey's semi-official Anatolia News Agency. "A country like that can only be described as an outlaw state."
23 February 1999

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/greece-fed-weapons-to-kurd-rebels-1072670.html


Then in a weird turn of events, PKK leader Ocalan sued Greece at EU court of human rights for mistreatment towards him at 2008. He said that he was a Greek citizen in 1999 and Greek government failed to protect her citizen`s right by letting Turkish secret service agents capture him in Greek embassy at Kenya;

PKK leader Ocalan sues Greece

The jailed leader of the terror organization PKK is suing Greece for failing to prevent his capture by Turkish officials in 1999, officials said.

Abdullah Ocalan is seeking $25,500 from the Greek government, alleging that Athens betrayed him after offering assurances of his safety, Hurriyet reported Friday.

Ocalan, who led the Kurdistan Workers' Party, commonly known as PKK, is serving a life sentence in a Turkish prison, the newspaper reported.

Ocalan hid in Athens from Turkish officials for two days in January 1999 before Greek intelligence helped him flee to Kenya. He was arrested in Kenya by Turkish agents.

The PKK is listed as a terrorist group by, among others, Turkey, the European Union and the United States.

12/06/2008

http://www.topnews.in/pkk-leader-ocalan-sues-greece-296020



As you can see, Greek church and politicians have such an hatred toward us, so they support anything against us, including terrorism. Their hatred is so big that probably it turns their eyes blind, so Mr. Pangalos and other Greek authorities supported PKK leader even without thinking possible consequences for their own political carrier and more importantly, the fate of their own country.

I remember that 1000s of people in Turkey was doing protests all over Turkey when we discovered that Abdullah Ocalan is hiding with the support of Greece and Cyprus. People clearly demanded from Turkish government to bomb PKK camps both in Greece and southern Cyprus and capture Ocalan who were hiding in Cyprus at that time.

What would happen if we had politicians in Turkey as irresponsible as Greek ones like Mr. Pangalos? Who could stop us destroying their little fake nation called Greece?

[Onur]

The section of Greece in "Global Terrorism Report", annually issued by the U.S. Secretary of State Department is interesting to read;


CAN GREECE SUCCEED IN ITS FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM?

International community closely monitoring the operation conducted by the Greek Police against the November 17 terror organization, expects the Greek government not to limit the operations with only November 17 terror organization and to include other terror organizations active in the country

Most important discussion about the November 17 terror organization during its dissolution process was the performance of Greece in the fight against terrorism. None of the members of the November 17 terror organizations were captured in the last nine years, but recently, Greece has intensified operations against it. It is wondered what will be the sanctions Greece would imposed against the members of the terror organizations such as the PKK and DHKP\C, whose ties with the November 17 terror organizations were revealed. How will Greece act against those who have important positions in the state as well as cooperating with other terror organizations? Will Greece take those to court?

Terrorist activities against foreign and local targets began between 1967 and 1974 during the military coup era in Greece and reached a peak in 1974 after the regime change. With the November 17 terror organization "quake" in July 2002, terrorism in Greece reached a historical u-turn.

The Greek administration that allowed Greece to become a country where international terror organizations freely function especially after the 1980, supported terrorism like in the PKK example with the intention of using it as tool of its foreign policy. On the other hand, it displayed an ineffective and insufficient fight against terrorism as a part of its approach to the November 17 terror organization.

The Greek government that allowed terrorist activities against American, Turkish and Western targets, failed to capture any members of the bloody November 17 terror organization until July 2002. It also didn't take any precaution against the members of the terror organizations such as the PKK, DHKP\C and the ASALA, having obvious ties with the November 17 terror organization.

The Greek administration that failed to show expected effort to fight against terrorism was strongly criticized by Turkey and Western Countries as well as the United States as it followed a supportive and provocative policy on terror organizations and terrorist activities.

According to the "Global Terrorism Report" that is annually issued by the U.S. Secretary of State Department, accused Greece of; not implementing the Anti-terror Law; failing to capture terrorists; being incapable of trying them; allowing the PKK and DHKP\C terror organizations to stage activities against Turkey in Greece; preventing the punishment of criminals as it has done in 1998 during the trial of Enrico Bianco, a member of the Italian Red Troops terror organization and being unsuccessful in its fight against the November 17 terror organization. The Report also underlined that Greece may be included to the list of countries supporting terrorism.

Another report prepared by the U.S. National Commission on Terrorism states that "Greece in its fight against terrorism acts disturbingly passive. Since 1979, DHKP/C terror organization killed four foreigners. Despite the warning issued by the U.S., it didn't close down the DHKP/C bureau in Greece."

Greece was always attractive to terror organizations such as the November 17, PKK and the DHKP/C as it has borders to Turkey and it is located on the passage way to the European countries and also because it follows policies that feed terror elements.

"Lavrion Refugee Camp" that was opened in 1949 near Athens under the title of "Treatment Center for Foreign Migrants" became a center suitable for cooperation between terror groups and as German Die Welt newspaper pointed out on December 2, 1994, it serves as a shelter and doctrine center for PKK and DHKP/C terrorists that illegally passed to Greece in 1980s.

According to the Time Magazine's research dated March 30 of 1996, Ayfer Kaya alas Rozarin in charge of PKK terror organization's camps in Greece (also she was the organization member who accompany PKK head Abdullah Ocalan during his adventure that began in Athens and ended in Kenya) said the following: "I was greeting those who arrived in the Lavrion Camp which is 45 kilometers away to Athens, for bomb and shooting training. Every week 5-10 young Kurds were coming to the camp in order to learn how to fight with the goal of forming a Kurdish state on the Turkish, Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi soil." Meanwhile, another PKK official Ferzeyn Iskender in the Lavrion was quoted as saying that, "this camp is the biggest example of Greece's help to us." These statements openly reveal the support of Greece to terror organizations.

On October 12-14, a delegation made up of New Democracy member M. Galanianos and PASOK's E.Verivakis, D.Vunatsos and E.Papazoi visited the PKK camps in Bekaa and give support to terrorists.

According to the Hurriyet newspaper's news report dated January 15, 2002, PKK terror organization is active in Greece and have a bureau in Athens as well as other offices such as the branch office of Kurdistan Committee Balkans Representative, Kurdish Red Crescent, Med TV, DEM news agency and Kurdish house. Hurriyet's news report claimed that the PKK carries out its activities in the Greek Cyprus via Cyprus- Kurdistan Solidarity Committee.

Kurdish Red Crescent, a side organization of the terror organization having an official identity in Greece, works for free treatment of injured PKK terrorists in Greek hospitals. Meanwhile, Med TV and DEM news agency carry out relations with the Greek media. Kurdish house that was opened with an official ceremony on January 29, 1995 by the participation of Greek officials, gives political training to the terrorists living in the Lavrion refugee camp and also distributes the propaganda magazine named Foni Tou Kurdistan (Voice of Kurdistan) published in Greek.

157 lawmakers of the 330-member Greek parliament issued a joint letter on April 10, 1997 inviting PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan to Greece. After this invitation, PKK has launched a cocktail party on June 4, 1997 at the Great Britain Hotel for those lawmakers. Some 80 Greek deputies from different political parties that participated the cocktail party showed their open support to terrorists.

Greek politicians support to the PKK terror organization continued with various different activities. A press release issued by 109 deputies including deputy parliament speakers Panagiotis Kritikos, Panagiotis Suguridis, Loukas Apostolidis; deputies from the PASOK, DIKKI and YDP parties as well as independent lawmakers on November 5, 1998 inviting Abdullah Ocalan to Greece as the legal representative of Kurdish people reveals the dimension of this support to the terror organization.

A clear evidence of Greece's support to the PKK terror organization was Abdullah Ocalan's move to enter Greece for three times; on September 9,1998, January 29,1999 and February 1, 1999 after he was forced to leave Syria. During his process that ended with his capture, Ocalan was hiding in residence of Greek Embassy to Nairobi between February 2 and 15, 1999. In an other works, Greece was captured while carrying out its relation with terrorism.

Greek Intelligence Service member Savvas Kalenderidis who accompany Ocalan during his stay in Athens and Kenya, in his testimony at the Prosecutors office in Athens said "I want to underline the fact that I carried out all my activities according to the direction of the Greek government," according to the Ta Nea newspaper's news report published on March 15, 1999.

Meanwhile Adesmeftos Tis kriyakis newspaper on November 26, 2000, quoted retired Admiral Andonis Naksakis who played a key role while bringing Abdullah Ocalan to Greece as saying that, "Prime Minister Simitis and Teodoros Pangalos who at the time was the Foreign Minister were knowing that Ocalan would arrive in Athens. I did everything upon the demand of the government. Savvas Kalenderidis provided help under the order of Sgruridis. Pangalos was receiving the information about Ocalan from me and he was telling me the orders of the prime minister. We brought Ocalan to Athens on January 29, 1999 and Voula Diamanako, a man of literature, played host to Ocalan at his home. We were making moves under the knowledge of the government. Because EYP was the intelligence service of Greece." His words openly showed Greek administration's relation with terrorist elements.

Capture of terrorist Abdullah Ocalan and his arrival in Turkey caused a big shock in Greece. Prime Minister Simitis, after their ties with the terror organization leader Ocalan revealed, dismissed Foreign Minister Pangalos, Interior Minister Papadapulos and Public Order Minister Pecalnikos as well as Greek Intelligence Service Chief Haralambos Stavrakakis who personally met with Ocalan.

Greek Parliament Speaker Apostolos Kaklamanis in a press release dated March 1, 1999 said that, "Greece was the responsible party for every crisis that emerge between Turkey and Greece and Greece also caused the Ocalan question."

The only result of sheltering Abdullah Ocalan in Greece was taking those who had involved in the even to the court and Greek governments effort to erase the "terror scandal" from the minds of people.

Elefterotipia newspaper in its November 15, 1999 issue reveals the atmosphere after Ocalan event:

"In February 1999, Greece was shocked with the capture of Ocalan. Prosecutors carrying out the probe were accusing the intelligence service, police, airport and private aviation company officials, retired navy officer Andonis Naksadis and politicians whose names were mentioned as a part of this event. 20 months later, two Kurds who are close friends of retired officer Naksakis and Ocalan, were hold responsible for committing four different crimes. Three out of 25 people hold responsible for Ocalan event; Andonis Naksakis, Yasar Cengiz and Ayfer Kaya alas Rozarin Lazer and also the lover of Ocalan were sent to court."

Recently, operations carried out against the November 17 terror organization were known as the most important progress showing the relations between the PKK, November, the DHKP/C and Greek Cypriot agents. There is some evidence revealing that this four elements were behind the assassinations targeting Turkish diplomats in Greece.

According to a news report of Apoyevmatini newspaper on July 22, 2002, Greek Cypriot agents have been giving training to the PKK terrorists in the Bekaa Valley since 1989. November 17 terror organization has assassinated Turkish diplomat Haluk Sipahioglu as a revenge of the murder of Greek Cypriot agent Teofilos Georgiadis on March 4, 1994. Again November 17, the DHKP/C, the PKK and Greek Agents quartet was behind the murder of Cetin Gorgu and arson attack against Deniz Bolukbası.

Ocalan was carrying a passport belonging to the Lazaros Georgiadis who was murdered in the Greek Cyprus and who was the predecessor to Greek Cypriot agent Teofilos Georgiadis when he was captured in Kenya. It was an important evidence of relation between the PKK terror organization and murdered Greek Cypriot agent.

According to a news report of To Vima newspaper on June 7, 2002, DHKP/C terror organization's leader Dursun Karatas has ties in Athens and he spends majority of his time in the Greek capital.

"European intelligence services have been warning Athens that the leaders of the DHKP/C are preparing to settle in Greece. According to a report prepared by the Greek Intelligence service, DHKP/C terrorists have opened restaurants and shops in Greece with the money they earned from the drug smuggling at the end of 1980s," according to the To Vima newspaper.


International society supports the operations against the November 17 but also expects Greece to remove suspicions. There is a joint expectation from Greece; revealing alleged relation between the November 17 and government, taking all the suspects to court and starting a self-criticism era arguing the Simitis Government's role in Greece's official ties with terror.

http://www.diplomaticobserver.com/EN/belge/2-1974/can-greece-succeed-in-its-fight-against-terrorism.html

[Turkophagos]

I strongly support PKK and i wish the greek government had supported them more back then.

Greeks were the "terrorists" of their time during our independence war, 10 years ago were the Kurds. But unfortunately for the turks that's the reality of tomorrow:

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/kurdistan/kurdistan.gif

[Onur]

Btw don't think that Greek support of terrorism against Turkey has ended. PKK camps in Greece is still active today for anyone who wants learn how to set up a bomb or assassinate someone in Turkey. Most probably, ex-army officials of Greece are still providing training to young terrorists under the supervision of Greek government. As the bishop of Greek church in Athens declared to BBC in the message above, they provide necessary food and money by rising funds for PKK. Here is an article from Belgium in 2010;

Kurds And Police Clash After Belgian Raids

Police in Belgium have arrested eight people on suspicion of recruiting fighters for an outlawed Kurdish separatist group. The eight were taken into custody after 300 police officers raided dozens of addresses across the country, as part of a three-year investigation into the activities of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK).

The PKK took up arms in 1984 to campaign for an independent Kurdish state and is listed as a terrorist organisation by the European Union, US and Turkey.

Belgian prosecutors claimed they had evidence to suggest those arrested were involved in falsifying passports and financing recruitment for PKK armed activities.

Spokesperson Lieve Pellens told a news conference: "We believe there are serious indications that young people, especially of Kurdish origin, were being recruited in Western countries, including Belgium, for military camps in north and eastern Iraq and Greece."

Masked police swooped on the Kurdish television broadcaster RJO in Denderleeuw during the raids. Outside the broadcaster's offices, Kurdish protesters clashed with riot-police who fought back with water canon.

March 05, 2010

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Police-In-Belgium-Clash-With-Kurdish-Protesters-After-Raids-To-Crack-Down-On-Support-For-The-PKK/Article/201003115567836

You may wonder how come a member of EU provides a safe heaven for the terrorists and set up camps for them in there. They do this by officially calling these places as "refugee camps for immigrants". PKK and Marxist terror group of DHKP-C members enters Greece illegally together with other illegal immigrants but Greek secret service separates these people from other immigrants and puts them into these "special camps".

For example, they shut down one of these camps 2 years ago;

Greece Shutting Down Lavrion Refugee Camp

Greece is getting ready to shut down the Lavrion refugee camp which has been a safe haven for PKK terrorists for years.

Greek authorities took action upon reactions in the international arena over news suggesting that the Lavrion camp served as a base opening into Europe in human trafficking.

Greek government warned the refugees in the camp it would prohibit the entry of all life materials including food stuff, clothing and medicine and the camp would be closed down.

Terrorist organization PKK is said to charge Kurdish and Afghan refugees from Iraq, Iran, Syria, Turkey, and Afghanistan, 5 to 7 thousand Euro to bring them to the Lavrion camp. PKK is said to later charge refugees 10 thousand Euro to help them enter European countries with fake passports.

Upon the announcement of the Greek authorities, the refugees incited by PKK terrorists started making preparations to launch protests. But their attempts were prevented when Greek authorities were quick enough to apprehend the four PKK terrorists who were instigating the refugees.

European authorities say majority of the 50 thousand illegal immigrants apprehended in Europe in the H1 of 2010 was Kurdish refugees which illegally entered Europe over Greece.

02 November 2010

http://www.turkishny.com/english-news/5-english-news/39255-greece-shutting-down-lavrion-refugee-camp


Ofc not all of them stays in these refugee camps but some applies for political asylum in Greece and Greek courts provides asylum to them immediately. Here is another article from last year. Apparently, a private residence belonged to a PKK terrorist who applied for asylum to Greece and took Greek passport last year. And he exploded himself and the whole house accidentally in central Salonika. The weaponry found in the home is unbelievable;

anti-tank weapon armed with a 64mm M80 shell, a Kalashnikov submachine gun with four rounds, a Scorpion submachine gun, an AK machine gun, an older model machine gun, ammunition of various diameters, 14 handgrenade detonators, six handgrenades, two anti-personnel mines and five kilos of an unidentified powder believed to be dynamite.


Heavy weaponry found after apartment explosion
A 32-year-old Kurdish national killed in a handgrenade explosion in an apartment in Thessaloniki on Tuesday night was believed to have been connected with armed Kurdish organisations, after the discovery of a cache of heavy weaponry in the basement apartment in Triandria, Thessaloniki police said on Thursday.

http://www.athensnews.gr/sites/athensnews/files/imagecache/group4_410x//sites/athensnews/files/articles/portal_articles/2011/10/ekriksi-1706180.jpg

The man had submitted an application for political asylum in March 2010 in Athens, and had been living in Thessaloniki since April that same year.

A search of the ruins of the apartment turned up heavy weaponry and explosives, which are being scrutinised by police.

The weaponry, which was hidden in a secret compartment in the apartment's kitchen, included an eastern- made anti-tank weapon armed with a 64mm M80 shell, a Kalashnikov submachine gun with four rounds, a Scorpion submachine gun, an AK machine gun, an older model machine gun, ammunition of various diameters, 14 handgrenade detonators, six handgrenades, two anti-personnel mines and five kilos of an unidentified powder believed to be dynamite.

Counter-terrorism police are also examining a prospective connection with a 42-year-old Turkish woman arrested in early July in Thessaloniki, who is believed to be a member of the European division of the Revolutionary Popular Party (DHKP-C), which is outlawed in Turkey. The woman was arrested on a warrant by the German authorities.

Earlier in the week the Greek Supreme Court (Areios Paghos) ruled in favour of the woman's extradition to Germany on condition that she is not extradited to Turkey or any other country.

The explosion occurred shortly after 11:00 on Tuesday night in a basement apartment of a three-storey building in Triandria, and the dismembered body of the Kurd was found in the ruins.

Police later said that the explosion came from a handgrenade that the man had possibly been examining at the time.

The explosion caused damage to neighboring buildings and construction sites, as well as to cars parked in the vicinity.

6 Oct 2011

http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/48691

I am sure that Greek authorities didn't even see while PKK terrorists stacking anti-tank rockets, machine guns and bombs to Salonika. I am sure that they knew nothing at all (!!!)

Their affection to the kurdish terrorists is quite evident. They even provide them passports and Greek courts rules that they cant be extradited to Turkey (!!!)

[Queen B]

I am really bored to read manipulated bullshit all the time.

First of all, since the passport is Cypriot, then NOONE else than the Cypriot state could give him this passport.
Greece and Cyprus are different countries, with different passports.

Also, its Greece that gave Ocalan to police. So, we betrayed him, instead of supporting him.

In the Ocalan case now, we shouldn't be such cowards, it should be really us that we could hide him and we shouldn't have give him to the police.

[Loki]

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/kurdistan/kurdistan.gif

This is definitely a flashpoint in time to come, and to be fair the Kurds deserve a country of their own. It could even benefit Turkey. But will Turkey and Iran give it up without a fight?

[Turkophagos]

This is definitely a flashpoint in time to come, and to be fair the Kurds deserve a country of their own. It could even benefit Turkey. But will Turkey and Iran give it up without a fight?

American policy in the area is "divide and conquer". The States will tolerate a Turkey of this size and military power as long as it will continue to be its little puppet. I sense that Davutoglu's neo-ottomanism will be the reason of the destruction and division of the turkish "republic" as we know it.

[ChildOfTheJin]

The Turkish state knows the PKK terms for peace. Give us autonomy with in turkey and you will see peace in the region. We ask for nothing more. We are sick of the Turkish authorities ruling our streets. We are sick of the Turkish military right next to our doorsteps. And we are sick of the Turkish people calling us "mountain turks"

[Pecheneg]

The Turkish state knows the PKK terms for peace. Give us autonomy with in turkey and you will see peace in the region.
It's not that easy. Guess what will be the next step? Unification of Kurds of Iran, Syria, Turkey, Iraq >> establishment of kıro state.




We ask for nothing more. We are sick of the Turkish authorities ruling our streets. We are sick of the Turkish military right next to our doorsteps.
Then try to get used to it. Since the Seljuks, Turkish military has always been there, and always will.




And we are sick of the Turkish people calling us "mountain turks"
enough of this dramatization. :bored: I'm also sick of your potential criminal people who transformed many Turkish cities into shithole. Thinner addicts, thieves, pkk supporters, urban terrorists, rapists, smugglers, picpockets...all of them are kurds.

[Pecheneg]

I strongly support PKK

Unfortunately you wanker's support means nothing. Even this creature has more important role in this issue.
http://i48.tinypic.com/2vxoahc.jpg





Greeks were the "terrorists" of their time during our independence war,

They were not greeks, but some orthodox arnavites.

[Incal]

American policy in the area is "divide and conquer". The States will tolerate a Turkey of this size and military power as long as it will continue to be its little puppet.

Totally agree about this.

[Hayalet]

American policy in the area is "divide and conquer". The States will tolerate a Turkey of this size and military power as long as it will continue to be its little puppet.
Turkey has told America to go screw itself on many occasions in the last 50 years, but I know Greeks have the notion America is what's protecting Turkey from Greek military prowess. :D

[Turkophagos]

Unfortunately you wanker's support means nothing. Even this creature has more important role in this issue.
http://i48.tinypic.com/2vxoahc.jpg




Being your girlfriend doesn't make her more important on Greek-Kurdish relations.

[ChildOfTheJin]

It's not that easy. Guess what will be the next step? Unification of Kurds of Iran, Syria, Turkey, Iraq >> establishment of kıro state.



Of course, clever Turk. There is no simpler way to put it.



Then try to get used to it. Since the Seljuks, Turkish military has always been there, and always will.


Lol, Turks have only been in this area 800 years. Kurds and Armenians have been here for over 4000 years. Don't forget that we are the natives of this region.


enough of this dramatization. I'm also sick of your potential criminal people who transformed many Turkish cities into shithole. Thinner addicts, thieves, pkk supporters, urban terrorists, rapists, smugglers, picpockets...all of them are kurds.


Just watch these turkish thugs in istanbul http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EDMwY3ggJ4

Have you ever heard of the grey wolves / bozkurt? They have bought this war to Europe by killing and kidnapping Kurds.


http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=39361 <----This site shows several videos of the turkish Bozkurt attacking Kurds in the Netherlands.

So don't just go claiming bullshit about Kurds. Turks are fucking up their own cities and you turks have bought this war to Europe.

Im not being Biased. Just look at this. https://sites.google.com/site/londonstreetgangs/organised-crime/turkish-kurdish

Both Turks and Kurds have created powerful mafias and gangs. You have no idea how it is. Especially here in London.

[Cannabis Sativa]

Totally agree about this.

You can't agree on anything while living thousands of kilometres far from our geography. Seems I sense coming of another jackass commenting about Turkey-U.S relations.

[Pecheneg]

Lol, Turks have only been in this area 800 years. Kurds and Armenians have been here for over 4000 years. Don't forget that we are the natives of this region.
http://i46.tinypic.com/2i0by10.jpg

You kurds are originally a mesopotamian-zagros folk, Stop dreaming of being 9000000000000 years old natives. There wasn't significant kurdish population in southeastern anatolia before Ottoman-Safavid (Sunni-Shia) conflict in 16th century, let alone inner parts of anatolia.
How can you be Mede, Qarduch, Assyrian, Urartian, Scythian, Guti etc. at once??

[Partizan]

I strongly support PKK and i wish the greek government had supported them more back then.

Greeks were the "terrorists" of their time during our independence war, 10 years ago were the Kurds. But unfortunately for the turks that's the reality of tomorrow:

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/kurdistan/kurdistan.gif

Yes, you are in the same situation. Both Imperialist backed fake nations. Please don't try to show yourselves as "Hellenes", your nation's history starts with 1821. Just like Kurds, who have no history and who are just a mixed soup of Middle East/South Caucasus, you a bunch of Arvanites, Vlachs and Christian Turks started to think that you are Greeks after Russian-British-French backed rebellion.


I am really bored to read manipulated bullshit all the time.

First of all, since the passport is Cypriot, then NOONE else than the Cypriot state could give him this passport.
Greece and Cyprus are different countries, with different passports.

Also, its Greece that gave Ocalan to police. So, we betrayed him, instead of supporting him.

In the Ocalan case now, we shouldn't be such cowards, it should be really us that we could hide him and we shouldn't have give him to the police.

Greece still doesn't accept PKK as a terrorist organisation and there are still PKK camps in Greece. I'm against every kind of terrorism however based on fervent Kurdophilia of Greeks, sometimes I hope for a "Western Thrace Al-Queda" or "Western Thrace Muslim Brotherhood" organisation. Perhaps that can cause empathy for Greeks.


This is definitely a flashpoint in time to come, and to be fair the Kurds deserve a country of their own. It could even benefit Turkey. But will Turkey and Iran give it up without a fight?

Dude, we gave independence to Greeks and they even wanted half of Anatolia later. Compromise brings compromise. However AKP government started to being harsh against PKK/KCK and it's political party BDP. I hope "diamond will cut diamond" and a trouble(islamists) will end another trouble(kurds).


American policy in the area is "divide and conquer". The States will tolerate a Turkey of this size and military power as long as it will continue to be its little puppet. I sense that Davutoglu's neo-ottomanism will be the reason of the destruction and division of the turkish "republic" as we know it.

Heh heh heh... Please don't compare your country where have always been run with EU money, agriculture and tourism to powerhouse of Middle East called Turkey. I'm a staunch opposite of AKP however Davutoğlu's politics are becoming better and if a Turkish intervention will happen against Syria, PKK will lose too many things. We couldn't give a lesson to Barzani(who was kissing our soldiers' boats earlier) because of his American masters but it seems we're going to give a lesson to both Assad, PYD/PKK, Russia/China/Iran and also to the USA(who tries to set us away from Syria by saying, "don't get provoked guys"). A stronger Turkey will arise, perhaps you Greeks would want to be a mandate state of such an imperial Turkey? :thumb001: It would be better for you :)

The Turkish state knows the PKK terms for peace. Give us autonomy with in turkey and you will see peace in the region. We ask for nothing more. We are sick of the Turkish authorities ruling our streets. We are sick of the Turkish military right next to our doorsteps. And we are sick of the Turkish people calling us "mountain turks"

Autonomy, later freedom, later "give istanbul to us" ....

We're going to give you those, like greatest man of 20.th century, Atatürk did:

http://darulhikme.org.tr/darulhikme/tr/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ISTIKLAL_MAHKEMELERI.jpg

Either be nice citizens of Turkey and accept Turkish identity, or GTFO. It is the rule.

Totally agree about this. I don't know what to agree but since it's against Turks, if I agree I will get white points.

Fixed.

Lol, Turks have only been in this area 800 years. Kurds and Armenians have been here for over 4000 years. Don't forget that we are the natives of this region.

Natives? You have never formed any state in Anatolian soils, you don't have common history and language, you are just an imitated nation(!) by imperialists. You have no rights in our lands. We are there since Sumerians, who spoke an archaic Ural-Altaic language. However you are just some kinda mixed salad who thinks that they are another nation.



Have you ever heard of the grey wolves / bozkurt? They have bought this war to Europe by killing and kidnapping Kurds.


http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=39361 <----This site shows several videos of the turkish Bozkurt attacking Kurds in the Netherlands.

So don't just go claiming bullshit about Kurds. Turks are fucking up their own cities and you turks have bought this war to Europe.


One of my friends' father was a "Grey Wolf" who was "Ülkü Ocakları Başkanı" in Netherlands. So I know the issue. I'm a left-wing nationalist who doesn't like MHP at all but those guys did what was necesarry. You Kurds were lobbying against Turks and even trafficking narcotics in Europe for funding PKK and Grey Wolves gave you a lesson. I wish all Turks were just as badass as those Grey Wolves, we need to kick Kurdish asses.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Either be nice citizens of Turkey and accept Turkish identity, or GTFO. It is the rule.


Lol, Kurds weren't even classified as citizens until recently. We will not get out of our homeland. Turks need to get out of Greek homeland and go back to their homeland, which is in Mongolia. We all know this, no one denies it. So stop acting like you are a native of this region.


Natives? You have never formed any state in Anatolian soils, you don't have common history and language, you are just an imitated nation(!) by imperialists. You have no rights in our lands. We are there since Sumerians, who spoke an archaic Ural-Altaic language. However you are just some kinda mixed salad who thinks that they are another nation.


Of course we haven't, we aren't from Anatolia, We are the neighbors of Anatolia, but some Kurds have Anatolian ancestry.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg/300px-AnatolieLimits.jpg

My history is richer than yours. I am a DIRECT descendent of the Medes and Hurrians. I am originally from the Soran clan.

I am supposed to have rights in my land, you aren't even from this land originally.

Lol, ahh so you believe that bullshit Ataturk said about the Sumerians? They were Semetic / Iranic. Their brains probably came from their Iranic side :) They were definetely not Turkic

Yes, the Kurds are mixed. We have Mede blood, Hurrian blood, Halaf blood, some even have Hittite blood. Along with other smaller groups such as the SUMERIANS and Elamite blood. Kurds are very mixed, yet 90% of Kurds are pure Caucasian.


One of my friends' father was a "Grey Wolf" who was "Ülkü Ocakları Başkanı" in Netherlands. So I know the issue. I'm a left-wing nationalist who doesn't like MHP at all but those guys did what was necesarry. You Kurds were lobbying against Turks and even trafficking narcotics in Europe for funding PKK and Grey Wolves gave you a lesson. I wish all Turks were just as badass as those Grey Wolves, we need to kick Kurdish asses.


You can try kicking Kurdish ass but you will always fail in the end.

This video made me smile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o5fSPaSBas&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsear ch_query%3DKurds%2Bvs%2Bturks%26oq%3DKurds%2Bvs%2B turks%26gs_l%3Dyoutube-reduced.3...948032.949296.0.949424.14.12.0.0.0.0.1 64.1074.8j4.12.0...0.0...1ac.1.FG92i9gUaRA

[Partizan]

Lol, Kurds weren't even classified as citizens until recently. We will not get out of our homeland. Turks need to get out of Greek homeland and go back to their homeland, which is in Mongolia. We all know this, no one denies it. So stop acting like you are a native of this region.

We are native to this region. Otherwise how can you explain those pre-historical scripts which are similar to Orhkon script? Those were found in Denizli's Bozkurt district. Denizli is in Central-West Turkey.

http://img.haberler.com/haber/171/anadolu-da-turk-tarihi-degisebilir-4011171_o.jpg

We always accepted "Eastern Anatolian Turks" and "Southern East Anatolian Turks" as citizens and still we do. But we don't recognise any ethnicity except the Turkish one and except the minorities(Greek, Jew, Armenian). According to an internationally accepted treaty, Lausanne, in Turkey there are not Kurds, sorry :) Turkish ID is recognised by everyone. NE MUTLU TÜRK'ÜM DİYENE!

Today's Greeks are nothing related to Ionians. Even Athens was an Albanian speaking village. Not to forget, with population exchange, 400.000 Karamanide Orthodox Turks came to Greece. So, if even Turks came Anatolia in 1071, we are still more native than Arvanite+Turkish mutts.



Of course we haven't, we aren't from Anatolia, We are the neighbors of Anatolia, but some Kurds have Anatolian ancestry.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg/300px-AnatolieLimits.jpg

My history is richer than yours. I am a DIRECT descendent of the Medes and Hurrians. I am originally from the Soran clan.

I am supposed to have rights in my land, you aren't even from this land originally.

Hurrians? Medes? Don't make me laugh. Medes were descended from Parthians, who were probably descendants of Proto-Turkic Scythians. Don't imitate our history.


Lol, ahh so you believe that bullshit Ataturk said about the Sumerians? Did you know they inhabited the area my clan is located in today? And did you know I am a native of that area? The Sumerians were most likely Indo European. Not Turkic.

Most likely indo-euro? :lol: Sumerian was associated with Ural-Altai language group until end of 19.th century and it has never been associated with Indo-European. Let's check what the most famous Assyrologist, Prof.Dr.Simo Parpola said:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/42TurkicAndSumer/SimoParpola_Altaic-UralicAndSumerEn.htm


In the early days of Assyriology, Sumerian was commonly believed to belong to the Ural-Altaic language phylum. This view originated with three leading Assyriologists, Edward Hincks, Henry Rawlinson, and Jules Oppert, and other big names in early Assyriology such as Friedrich Delitzsch supported it (Fig. 1). The Frenchman François Lenormant, who wrote on the subject in 1873-78, found Sumerian most closely related to Finno-Ugric, while also containing features otherwise attested only in Turkish and other Altaic languages.

The wind turned in the early 1880s, however, as two prominent Finno-Ugrists, August Ahlqvist and Otto Donner, reviewed Lenormant's work and concluded that Sumerian was definitely not a Ural-Altaic language (Fig. 2). This was widely considered a death-blow to the Sumerian-Ural-Altaic hypothesis, and since then Assyriologists have generally rejected it. Typically, when a Hungarian scholar in 1971 tried to reopen the discussion in the journal Current Anthropology, a few linguists welcomed the idea but the reaction of the two Assyriologists consulted was scornfully negative.

Attempts to connect Sumerian with other languages have not been successful, however, and after 157 years, Sumerian still remains linguistically isolated. This being so, there is every reason to take another look at the old Ural-Altaic hypothesis, for it has never been properly investigated. In the 19th century, Sumerian grammar and lexicon were as yet too imperfectly known to be successfully compared with any languages, while all more recent comparisons suffer from the lack of Assyriological or linguistic expertise and are hence for the most part worthless. This does not mean, however, that they are all garbage: at least 194 of them seem perfectly acceptable both phonologically and semantically (Fig.3). That is a number large enough to deserve serious attention. Of course, it does not prove that Sumerian was related to Ural-Altaic languages, but it does indicate that the possibility exists and should be carefully re-examined in order to be either substantiated or definitively rejected.

To this end, I started in November 2004 a project called "The Linguistic Relationship between Sumerian and Ural-Altaic," on which I have been working full time since May 2006, with funding from the Academy of Finland. The aim of the project is to systematically scrutinize the entire vocabulary of Sumerian with the help of modern etymological dictionaries and studies, identify all the words and morphemes that can be reasonably associated with Uralic or Altaic etyma, ascertain the validity of the comparisons, convert the material into a database, and make it generally available on the Internet.

The database under construction will contain all the attested phonetic spellings and meanings of the compared Sumerian and Ural-Altaic lexical items, as well as, for control purposes, all Indo-European etymologies proposed for these items. The relevance of each comparison is assessed separately for form and meaning on a scale from 4 to 1 (Fig. 4). The highest score, 4+4, indicates perfect agreement in form and meaning; a low score correspondingly poor agreement and doubtful relevance. In deciding whether a comparison is relevant or not, the governing principle has been that all compared items must match reasonably well in both form and meaning, and any differences in form or meaning must conform with the phonological and semantic variation attested in the languages compared.

To date, I have systematically gone through about 75 per cent of the Sumerian vocabulary and identified over 1700 words and morphemes that can be reasonably associated with Uralic and/or Altaic etyma, allowing for regular sound changes and semantic shifts. Somewhat surprisingly, words with possible Altaic etymologies constitute only a small minority (about seven per cent) of the total, and it is unlikely that the picture will essentially change by the time the project has been finished. Although a close relationship of Sumerian with the Altaic family as a whole thus seems excluded, a genetic relationship with Turkish seems possible, as most of the matches are with Turkic languages, and they are basic words and grammatical morphemes also found in Uralic languages.

Practically all the compared items are thus Uralic, mostly Finno-Ugric. The majority of them are attested in at least one major branch of Uralic beside Finnic and thus certainly are very old, dating to at least 3000 BC. A large number of the words are known only from Finnic, but this does not prevent them from being ancient as well, since they have no etymology and are for the most part common words attested in all eight Finnic languages.

This collection of words runs the gamut of the Sumerian vocabulary (Fig. 5) and includes 478 common verbs of all possible types, such as verbs of being, bodily processes, sensory perception, emotion, making, communication, movement etc., adjectives, numerals, pronouns, adverbs, interjections, conjunctions, and 589 nouns including words for body parts, kinship terms, natural phenomena, animals, plants, weapons, tools and implements, and various technical terms reflecting the cultural level of the neo- and chalcolithic periods (in the fields of agriculture, food production, animal husbandry, weaving, metallurgy, building technology, etc.). I would like to emphasize that the majority of the words in question are basic words, and 75 per cent of them show a very good match in form and meaning. This does not mean that they are necessarily all correct, but they stand a very good chance of being so. About 20 per cent of the comparisons are more problematic and about 5 per cent of them are conjectural only. All clearly impossible comparisons will of course be excluded once the material has been thoroughly analyzed.

Over 1700 lexical matches with Uralic surely sounds like an awful lot, "too good be true," if compared with all the previous fruitless attempts to find a cognate for Sumerian. But it is not at all much for genetically related languages; on the contrary, it is what must be legitimately expected of languages that are related. Who marvels at the fact that members of the Indo-European language family, even ones widely separated in time and place, have a large number of words in common? The large number of common words is precisely the reason why these languages can so easily and securely be identified as members of the same family.

It may be asked why all these numerous lexical matches with Uralic have not been found earlier. The explanation is simple. It takes a good knowledge of the Uralic languages plus familiarity with the intricacies of Sumerian phonology and cuneiform writing system to recognize the connections between Sumerian and Uralic, and such a combination of special expertise is rare. Very few Assyriologists know any Uralic languages, and experts in Uralic studies do not know any Sumerian. Of course, beside the required special expertise one would also need the will to study the matter seriously, and such will has been entirely lacking in Assyriology for the past 120 years.

In order to get a better idea of the relationship between Sumerian and Uralic, let us now have a look at some of the comparisons to see what they are like and how they work in practice.

34 years ago, Miguel Civil in his article "From Enki's headache to phonology" showed that late Sumerian ugu, "top of the head," is the same word as earlier a-gù; and from the alternation of a-gù with the divine name dab-ú, he concluded that it probably originally contained a labiovelar stop in the middle (Fig. 6). Recently, Joan Westenholz and Marcel Sigrist have shown that beside "top of the head," ugu also means "brain." { Hungarian agy=brain} Both formally and semantically, the Sumerian word thus matches the Uralic word *ajkwo "brain, top of the head," which can be reconstructed as containing a labiovelar stop in the middle based on its reflexes in individual Uralic languages. Remarkably, Sumerian ugu4 "to give birth," a homophone of ugu, likewise has a close counterpart in Finnic aiko-, aivo-, "to intend; to give birth." The semantics of the Finnic word show that it derives from the word for "brain," and the alternation of /k/ and /v/ in the stem confirms the reconstruction of the labiovelar in the middle of the word.

Several other words discussed by Civil also display an alternation of /g/ and /b/, including gurux or buru4 "crow," and gur(u)21 "shield," also attested as kuru14, e-bu-ùr and íb-ba-ru (Fig. 7). These two words certainly were almost homophonous, since they could be written with the same logogram. The common Uralic word for "crow," *kwarüks, indeed contains the posited labiovelar stop and provides a perfect etymology for the Sumerian word. The original labiovelar is preserved in Selkup, but has been replaced by /v/ in other Uralic languages except Sayan Samoyed, where it is appears as /b/. Sumerian gur(u)21 "shield" can be compared with Finnic varus "protection," whose original form can be reconstructed as *kwaruks and thus provides a perfect etymology for the Sumerian word. {?Hungarian óv=to protect from harm, vár=a fort}.

The regular replacement of the labiovelar by /g/, /k/ or /b/ in Sumerian and by /v/ in Uralic amounts to a phonological rule and helps establish further connections between Sumerian and Uralic words displaying a similar correlation, for example Sumerian gíd "to pull" and Uralic *vetä- "to pull," {Hungarian huz t>z} and Sumerian kur "mountain" and Uralic *vor "mountain." {also common as kur in many FU languages} The reconstruction of an original labiovelar in the latter case is strongly supported by Volgaic kurok, "mountain." The phonological correspondences between Sumerian and Uralic remain to be fully charted, but a great many of them certainly are perfectly regular. For example, in word initial position Sumerian /š/ regularly corresponds to Finnic /h/, while Sumerian /s/ regularly corresponds to Finnic /s/ (Fig. . {In Hungarian its often s, ch, sh }.

The word a-gù just discussed was written syllabically with two cuneiform signs, A and KA, both of which have several phonetic values and meanings based on homophony and idea association (Fig. 9). All these phonetic values and meanings have close counterparts in Uralic, and the homophonic and semantic associations between the individual meanings work in Uralic, too; compare the homophony between a, aj "water" and aj, aja "father" in Sumerian, and jää, jäj and äj, äijä in Uralic. And this applies not only to the signs A and KA but, unbelievable as it may sound, practically the whole Sumerian syllabary. Consider, for example, the sign AN (Fig. 10), whose basic meaning, "heaven, highest god," was in Old Sumerian homophonous with the third person singular of the verb "to be," am6. The Uralic word for "heaven" and "highest god" was *joma, which likewise was virtually homophonous with the third person singular of the verb "to be," *oma. These two words would have become totally homophonous in Sumerian after the loss of the initial /j/. The loss of the initial /j/ also provided the homophony between Sumerian a "water" and aj "father" just mentioned.

Such a close and systematic parallelism in form and meaning is possible only in languages related to each other. Accordingly, the logical conclusion is that Sumerian is a Uralic language. This conclusion is backed up by the great number of common words and the regularity of the phonological correspondences between Sumerian and Uralic already discussed, as well as by many other considerations. Sumerian displays the basic typological features of Uralic; it has vowel harmony, no grammatical gender but an opposition between animate and inanimate, and its grammatical system is clearly Uralic, with similar pronouns, case markers, and personal endings of the verb. In addition, many Uralic derivational morphemes can be identified in Sumerian nouns and verbs. The non-Uralic features of Sumerian, such as the ergative construction and the prefix chains of the verb, can be explained as special developments of Sumerian in an entirely new linguistic environment after its separation from the other Uralic languages.

The Sumerians thus came to Mesopotamia from the north, where the Uralic language family is located (Fig. 11), and by studying the lexical evidence and the grammatical features which Sumerian shares with individual Uralic languages, it is possible to make additional inferences about their origins. The closest affinities of Sumerian within the Uralic family are with the Volgaic and Finnic languages, particularly the latter, with which it shares a number of significant phonological, morphological and lexical isoglosses. The latter include, among other things, a common word for "sea, ocean" (Sumerian ab or a-ab-ba, Finnic aava, aappa), and common words for cereals, sowing and harvesting, domestic animals, wheeled vehicles, and the harness of draught animals (Fig. 12). A number of these words also have counterparts in Indo-European, particularly Germanic languages. These data taken together suggest that the Sumerians originated in the Pontic-Caspian region between the mouth of the Volga and the Black Sea, north of the Caucasus Mountains, where they had been living a sedentary life in contact with Indo-European tribes. I would not exclude the possibility that their homeland is to be identified with the Majkop culture of the North Caucasus, which flourished between 3700 and 2900 BC and had trade contacts with the late Uruk culture (Fig. 13). Placing the Sumerian homeland in this area would help explain the non-Uralic features of Sumerian, for the Kartvelian languages spoken just south of it are ergative and have a system of verbal prefixes resembling the Sumerian one. The Sumerian words for wheel and the harness of draft animals that it shares with Uralic show that its separation from Uralic took place after the invention of wheeled vehicles, which were known in the Majkop culture since about 3500 BC.

About 3500 BC, the Indo-European Yamnaya culture that had emerged between the Danube and the Don began to expand dynamically to the east, reaching the Caucasian foreland by about 3300 BC. This expansion is likely to have triggered the Sumerian migration to Mesopotamia. It would have proceeded through the Caucasus and the Diyala Valley, and since wheeled transport was available, could easily have been completed before the end of the Late Uruk period (c. 3100 BC). The arrival of the Sumerians would thus coincide with the destruction of the Eanna temple precinct at the end of the Uruk IVa period.

The lexical parallels between Sumerian and Uralic thus open up not only completely new possibilities for the study of Sumerian, but also a chance to identify the original homeland of the Sumerians and date their arrival in Mesopotamia. In addition, they provide a medium through which it becomes possible to penetrate into the prehistory of the Finno-Ugric peoples with the help of very ancient linguistic data. Of course, it is clear that the relevant evidence must first pass the test of verification or falsification before any part of it can be generally accepted and exploited.

I am currently preparing an Internet version of the database in collaboration with the Department of General Linguistics of the University of Helsinki. This web version is planned to be interactive and will contain a search engine and a program to check the regularity of the sound changes involved in the comparisons. I heartily invite all skeptics to visit the site once it is ready and falsify as many of the comparisons as they can, and everybody else to look at the evidence, check it out, and contribute to it by constructive criticism and new data.

We have more rights in Mesopotamia than some kinda Iranian-Armenian-Turkish-Arab mixes called Kurds.




You can try kicking Kurdish ass but you will always fail in the end.

This video made me smile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o5fSPaSBas&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsear ch_query%3DKurds%2Bvs%2Bturks%26oq%3DKurds%2Bvs%2B turks%26gs_l%3Dyoutube-reduced.3...948032.949296.0.949424.14.12.0.0.0.0.1 64.1074.8j4.12.0...0.0...1ac.1.FG92i9gUaRA

Ask Kurds in Zeytinburnu, why they moved BDP office just next to police station?

jDl7mJEZgzE

Kurds are leaving Zeytinburnu after that event. They will leave İstanbul soon. And soon, they will leave all of Anatolia. Your place isn't there, go and form your Kurdistan in Greece, Germany, Russia, the US or in soils of who supports you else. If you want "soil" from us, we can give you just underground for digging you there.

[Kemalisté]

How much does it matter if Greece supports PKK or not ? those who are unable to benefit themselves can hardly benefit others.

[Kemalisté]

American policy in the area is "divide and conquer". The States will tolerate a Turkey of this size and military power as long as it will continue to be its little puppet. I sense that Davutoglu's neo-ottomanism will be the reason of the destruction and division of the turkish "republic" as we know it.

So true!

Unfortunately some people here deceive themselves as if we are not a puppet of America and can still live in peace even if it does not keep serving their interests anymore.

[Queen B]

How much does it matter if Greece supports PKK or not ?
Apparently for some, too much, to even create a thread about that. ;)

[ChildOfTheJin]

We are native to this region. Otherwise how can you explain those pre-historical scripts which are similar to Orhkon script? Those were found in Denizli's Bozkurt district. Denizli is in Central-West Turkey.

http://img.haberler.com/haber/171/anadolu-da-turk-tarihi-degisebilir-4011171_o.jpg



I said you guys are not the natives, I didn't say you don't have a history. I don't make up lies like you are doing. Turks have atleast a 500 year old history in this area. Thats not much


Hurrians? Medes? Don't make me laugh. Medes were descended from Parthians, who were probably descendants of Proto-Turkic Scythians. Don't imitate our history.

Yet again, your only source is Ataturk, who had no sources. Ataturk was full of imagination. The Scythians and Medes were two different Indo Aryan groups. The Medes are children of Matiene, as are the Persians. This probably explains why Kurds are closely related to the Persians. Legend says, Matiene had two children called Madayu and Parsu who would become the fathers of two Sub nations. Ataturk is not a good enough source. I get my sources from books and I would happily show you them if you want.


Most likely indo-euro? Sumerian was associated with Ural-Altai language group until end of 19.th century and it has never been associated with Indo-European. Let's check what the most famous Assyrologist, Prof.Dr.Simo Parpola said:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...AndSumerEn.htm


I just did a little bit more research and Sumerian is actually a language of its own, it isn't indo european or Uralic.

http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/IE_Non.html

It says SUMERIAN: Sumerian is a difficult language to classify partly because it is the first known language to use a system of writing. Accordingly, it has no known roots. Adding to the difficulty, Akkadian languages supplanted it--so it leaves no known linguistic descendants. The language was agglutinative and limited to the areas around Kish and Uruk. It was largely monosyllabic and cannot be connected with any other known languages.

Most likely, the modern day Iraqis would have some Sumerian blood. But we still do not know.



We have more rights in Mesopotamia than some kinda Iranian-Armenian-Turkish-Arab mixes called Kurds.

That is complete and utter bullshit. We are closely related to Persians and Armenians but Turks and Arabs? Where did you get that from? Or are you just trying to troll?




Kurds are leaving Zeytinburnu after that event. They will leave İstanbul soon. And soon, they will leave all of Anatolia. Your place isn't there, go and form your Kurdistan in Greece, Germany, Russia, the US or in soils of who supports you else. If you want "soil" from us, we can give you just underground for digging you there.


I have to repeat my self, Kurds are NOT from Anatolia, but some Kurds have Anatolian blood

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg/300px-AnatolieLimits.jpg

Those Kurds that do live in Anatolia were bought there by the Ottoman empire, however the new comers are escaping the war between the Turkish army and the PKK.

The BDP base is in Diyarbekir / Amed.

[Partizan]

Apparently for some, too much, to even create a thread about that. ;)

Well, we just like to expose some terrorist supporters. You even wished that you protect Öcalan the baby killer. I can't understand that, if even we are historical enemies, how come you Greeks can support a bloody terrorist organisation who targets innocent civilians? How to become that inhuman? Please, I'd like to see "manly" enemies.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Well, we just like to expose some terrorist supporters. You even wished that you protect Öcalan the baby killer. I can't understand that, if even we are historical enemies, how come you Greeks can support a bloody terrorist organisation who targets innocent civilians? How to become that inhuman? Please, I'd like to see "manly" enemies.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. You should know that already.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Btw, about Zeytinburnu, here is what it says from wikipedia:

It was first settled by a community of Greeks who moved out of Constantinople following the Ottoman conquest.

:) You know what that means right?

[The Lawspeaker]

Fraudelent Greeks poking a fire together with terrorist Kurds in a Turkey with an unpleasant history. All backed up by the genocidal U.S.A - it's a strange little world, is it ?

[ChildOfTheJin]

Fraudelent Greeks poking a fire together with terrorist Kurds in a Turkey with an unpleasant history. All backed up by the genocidal U.S.A - it's a strange little world, is it ?

I know, the Dutch gave chemical weapons to Saddam who killed some of my relatives. I don't know why they would do that. Yet I fully support the Netherlands and I am loyal to it. It is a strange little word, I agree :(

[The Lawspeaker]

I know, the Dutch gave chemical weapons to Saddam who killed some of my relatives. I don't know why they would do that. Yet I fully support the Netherlands and I am loyal to it. It is a strange little word, I agree :(

We all know what happened to that businessman ? Locked up tight in prison and he will never get out again. It's a shame we don't gas people here because I would love to make him sniff some of his own medicine but our government are a bunch of spineless twats that rather give money to Somali pirates, fraudulent banks, corrupt Brussels officials and even more fraudulent Greeks.

[Queen B]

Well, we just like to expose some terrorist supporters.
Then, why didn't you made any thread about Septemvriana?

You even wished that you protect Öcalan the baby killer. I can't understand that, if even we are historical enemies, how come you Greeks can support a bloody terrorist organisation who targets innocent civilians? How to become that inhuman? Please, I'd like to see "manly" enemies.

Well, one man's hero, is another man's villain, they say.
Turks idolize a genocider, but I m not preaching you about that, do I?

To the point now, I neither support or hate Kurds or Ocalan.I only said what my country should have done.
The only personal opinion that I have stated about the issue in previous thread is Turks should protect their lands against Kurds, but should give them the rights they deserve as a minority.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Then, why didn't you made any thread about Septemvriana?


Well, one man's hero, is another man's villain, they say.
Turks idolize a genocider, but I m not preaching you about that, do I?

To the point now, I neither support or hate Kurds or Ocalan.I only said what my country should have done.
The only personal opinion that I have stated about the issue in previous thread is Turks should protect their lands against Kurds, but should give them the rights they deserve as a minority.

Thats fair enough, a Kurdish writer has been recently caught saying something similar that freedom is more important for Kurds at the moment instead of Autonomy or independence.

[Partizan]

I said you guys are not the natives, I didn't say you don't have a history. I don't make up lies like you are doing. Turks have atleast a 500 year old history in this area. Thats not much

Those stone writings are almost pre-historic :picard1: Turks are only nation who can claim rights on Anatolia.




Yet again, your only source is Ataturk, who had no sources. Ataturk was full of imagination. The Scythians and Medes were two different Indo Aryan groups. The Medes are children of Matiene, as are the Persians. This probably explains why Kurds are closely related to the Persians. Legend says, Matiene had two children called Madayu and Parsu who would become the fathers of two Sub nations. Ataturk is not a good enough source. I get my sources from books and I would happily show you them if you want.


Have I ever mentioned Atatürk about Scythians-Medes you Einstein? I have books too. How can you explain that Byzantines called Turkic mercenaries as Skythoi(Scythians)? How can you explain Turkic rune text in Scythian Kurgan, Kazakhstan?:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Issyk_inscription.png

It was found in Issyk.


I just did a little bit more research and Sumerian is actually a language of its own, it isn't indo european or Uralic.

http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/IE_Non.html

It says SUMERIAN: Sumerian is a difficult language to classify partly because it is the first known language to use a system of writing. Accordingly, it has no known roots. Adding to the difficulty, Akkadian languages supplanted it--so it leaves no known linguistic descendants. The language was agglutinative and limited to the areas around Kish and Uruk. It was largely monosyllabic and cannot be connected with any other known languages.

Most likely, the modern day Iraqis would have some Sumerian blood. But we still do not know.


Well, nowadays it is accepted as a language isolate. However until 19.th century's end it was accepted as Uralo-Altaic and still except uralo-altaic any language group doesn't match with Sumerian.



That is complete and utter bullshit. We are closely related to Persians and Armenians but Turks and Arabs? Where did you get that from? Or are you just trying to troll?


Well, even recently you have those mixtures. İbrahim Tatlıses is a good example, half-Arab half-Kurd with Turanid features :lol:




I have to repeat my self, Kurds are NOT from Anatolia, but some Kurds have Anatolian blood

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg/300px-AnatolieLimits.jpg

Those Kurds that do live in Anatolia were bought there by the Ottoman empire, however the new comers are escaping the war between the Turkish army and the PKK.


By Anatolia, I mean Asian part of Turkey. We use that geographically, we use terms like "East Anatolian Region","South East Anatolian Region" etc. And there is also our soils.

BTW there isn't a war between PKK and Turkish army, war is a different thing than fighting against terror.

The BDP base is in Diyarbekir / Amed.

BDP has several bases in several provinces and districts of Turkey. However nowadays we are burning and breaking them :thumb001:

S9nh07ckvRs

6yx7HDcfru0

Don't mess with Turks. Otherwise we will wipe you out in whole world, not only in Turkey.

[Partizan]

Then, why didn't you made any thread about Septemvriana?

It has already been sued in our courts.


Well, one man's hero, is another man's villain, they say.
Turks idolize a genocider, but I m not preaching you about that, do I?

Genocider? Please don't make me talk about how you gained independence in 1821. Did those Arvanites leave any Turks alive in Morea? Also Atatürk was not a genocider, he just defended his country against invaders.


To the point now, I neither support or hate Kurds or Ocalan.I only said what my country should have done.
The only personal opinion that I have stated about the issue in previous thread is Turks should protect their lands against Kurds, but should give them the rights they deserve as a minority.

In Lausanne, which treaty you also accepted, Kurds aren't accepted as a minority. Except Greeks, Armenians and Jews, everyone is TURK in our lands according to an international treaty you already signed.

[Partizan]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. You should know that already.

Who kills civilians and who serves imperialist powers(both of The USA and Russia) can't call himself as a freedom fighter. Real guerillas like Fidel admire Atatürk, here you see 12 years old Partizan in front of Atatürk statue in Cuba:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/189227_115236051963406_1529109498_n.jpg

Please don't call yourselves as Guerilla and don't pollute the term of guerilla, I want Fidel to stay alive but Apo to rot in hell.


Btw, about Zeytinburnu, here is what it says from wikipedia:

It was first settled by a community of Greeks who moved out of Constantinople following the Ottoman conquest.

:) You know what that means right?

Yeah, a community came, later they gone... That is history :) But as always, Turks are the permanent ones...

[Queen B]

Genocider? Please don't make me talk about how you gained independence in 1821. Did those Arvanites leave any Turks alive in Morea? Also Atatürk was not a genocider, he just defended his country against invaders.
1) Υοu don't gain independence with flowers, neither by farting.
You gain independence with war, and kicking the ass of the rulers.
We should have ask ''Hey, opressors, can you kindly leave from here and let us gain indepence'' ? :picard2:
2) I m talking about Pontic Greeks


In Lausanne, which treaty you also accepted, Kurds aren't accepted as a minority. Except Greeks, Armenians and Jews, everyone is TURK in our lands according to an international treaty you already signed.

(I saw how you respected those treaties, and the recognised minorities :lol:)
You have 15 million people, that declare themselves something ELSE, and you say they are Turks?

[ficuscarica]

Greeks love the Kurds because they suffered the same sh!t from the Turks. Turkey is the south eastern version of the Third Reich, even today denying their genocides and oppressing millions of people.

Turks know that, but they defend their lies with force - like criminals.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Those stone writings are almost pre-historic :picard1: Turks are only nation who can claim rights on Anatolia.


Thats hard to believe and I will need a source and a quote.



Have I ever mentioned Atatürk about Scythians-Medes you Einstein? I have books too. How can you explain that Byzantines called Turkic mercenaries as Skythoi(Scythians)? How can you explain Turkic rune text in Scythian Kurgan, Kazakhstan?:




Thats probably just a coincidence, the only time Scythians came in contact with the Greeks was during the time of the Lydians (which the Turks claim are not Greek) and that was thousends of years before the arrivel of the Turks. Kazkhistan was first Scythian but then the Turkic invaders kicked many of them out and turkified the remaining ones. That is where the rune is probably from. Why do you think so many Kazkhs have Scythian features?

Saladin the Kurd was a direct descendent of the Adiabene Scythians.
And how can you explain the pointy Kurdish and Scythian hats?
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRn9E35tIZP9hO2ocMFyuFIeJb72igVJ tKiNY6gnFMLSQJmHh8kpw

And a Scythian hat:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRb-gg5-TijBqlDVyTAsBWImsf5eqV91YF747RcoZrng1kgPrZXPQ






Well, even recently you have those mixtures. İbrahim Tatlıses is a good example, half-Arab half-Kurd with Turanid features


Tatlises father is a Arab and his mother is a Kurd. What did you expect? That he will be black? lol




By Anatolia, I mean Asian part of Turkey. We use that geographically, we use terms like "East Anatolian Region","South East Anatolian Region" etc. And there is also our soils.

BTW there isn't a war between PKK and Turkish army, war is a different thing than fighting against terror.


If that is the case, then what about Corduence, Mitanni etc etc? They are all past Kurdish states in this area which everyone has agreed on.

Like I said, one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

Also, about the Parthians, they are the ancestors of the Feili Kurds.:

The roots of the Feyli go back to the Aryan immigrants of the first millennium BC, and more specifically, the Parthian/Pahlawi/Pahlawanid settlements of the 2nd century BC.

[ChildOfTheJin]

I have to say Partizan, you are very clever and you got good intentions.

[Partizan]

1) Υοu don't gain independence with flowers, neither by farting.
You gain independence with war, and kicking the ass of the rulers.
We should have ask ''Hey, opressors, can you kindly leave from here and let us gain indepence'' ? :picard2:
But civilians? During both Balkan Wars and so-called independence war of Greece, Turkish civilians were massacred. I'm not counting Turks killed in between 1919-1922.


2) I m talking about Pontic Greeks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Pontus

Those Greeks rebelled and declared independence while we were getting invaded by several countries. What you except? Giving candies to them?



(I saw how you respected those treaties, and the recognised minorities :lol:)?

Stop whining, Greeks in Turkey are in quite better situation than Turks in Greece, who can't elect their muftis. Sometimes I think, we should lock the door of Greek Patriarch and force all Greek Orthodox Christians in Turkey to be members of Turkish Orthodox Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocephalous_Turkish_Orthodox_Patriarchate). We have rights for doing a similar thing, since Turks and Pomaks in Western Thrace can't elect their religious leader. How the hell Greeks here can elect their patriarch?


You have 15 million people, that declare themselves something ELSE, and you say they are Turks?

I don't say, Lausanne says :) Your state accepts it so you can't talk about "Kurdish minority in Turkey". Your state accepts them as Turks, sorry :)

[ChildOfTheJin]

You have 15 million people, that declare themselves something ELSE, and you say they are Turks?

23 million people to be accurate.

http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2012/9/turkey4166.htm

[ChildOfTheJin]

If Ataturk accepted the treaty of Sevres, there would have been a state in the near east for every ethnic group except the Assyrians. And there wouldn't be so much hatred between us as their is now.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't say, Lausanne says :) Your state accepts it so you can't talk about "Kurdish minority in Turkey". Your state accepts them as Turks, sorry :)

Yes.. but. Back in 1923 there was no Hellenic Republic. The Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) of Greece did recognise them as Turks and I wonder whether the Greek signature under the Lausanne Treaty is still legally binding since it was signed by an altogether different political entity.

[ficuscarica]

Of course the Greek Orthodox Church has more rights in Turkey than the Turks have in Greece. The Turks after all stole minor Asia from the Greeks.... and Turks in Greece are invaders.
That´s like Germany conquering half of Poland and saying: "Look, the Poles are allowed to have their own religion - how generous we are. Now we want the same rights for Germans that tried to conquer the other half of Poland." Ridiculous Turk invader logics.

[Partizan]

Greeks love the Kurds because they suffered the same sh!t from the Turks. Turkey is the south eastern version of the Third Reich, even today denying their genocides and oppressing millions of people.

Turks know that, but they defend their lies with force - like criminals.

Krauts don't know anything but they prefer to defend every lie against Turks.


Thats hard to believe and I will need a source and a quote.

Search about Mario Alinei's theory. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory) Historians like Fred Hamori and Simo Parpola support this theory.



Thats probably just a coincidence, the only time Scythians came in contact with the Greeks was during the time of the Lydians (which the Turks claim are not Greek) and that was thousends of years before the arrivel of the Turks. Kazkhistan was first Scythian but then the Turkic invaders kicked many of them out and turkified the remaining ones. That is where the rune is probably from. Why do you think so many Kazkhs have Scythian features?


As I know even Herodotus describes Scythians as a totally different nation than Persians, so probably they weren't even Iranic.


Saladin the Kurd was a direct descendent of the Adiabene Scythians.
And how can you explain the pointy Kurdish and Scythian hats?
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRn9E35tIZP9hO2ocMFyuFIeJb72igVJ tKiNY6gnFMLSQJmHh8kpw

And a Scythian hat:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRb-gg5-TijBqlDVyTAsBWImsf5eqV91YF747RcoZrng1kgPrZXPQ

Saladin the Kurd? LOL in his family most names were Turkic originated, "Bori", "Tughtegin", "Turanshah"...

BTW Kyrgyz hat:
http://www.fendaltonrugs.co.nz/Accessories/Kyrgyz%20Kalpak%20Hat%20.jpg

Yörük hat:
http://www.anamurekspres.com/haber/11997762921.jpg




Tatlises father is a Arab and his mother is a Kurd. What did you expect? That he will be black? lol


Nope, I was just showing a recent mixture.




If that is the case, then what about Corduence, Mitanni etc etc? They are all past Kurdish states in this area which everyone has agreed on.


Nope, it has never been widely accepted. And there aren't any proofs for those claims, neither linguistically nor culturally. Just based on assumptions. For example as I know Georgians claim Karduchs as their ancestors too and to me, "Kartvel" sounds more similar to "Kardu" than "Kurd" :)

Like I said, one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.


Terrorist is always a terrorist. Freedom fighter(Atatürk, Fidel, Ho Chi Minh, Tito) is always a freedom fighters.


Also, about the Parthians, they are the ancestors of the Feili Kurds.:

The roots of the Feyli go back to the Aryan immigrants of the first millennium BC, and more specifically, the Parthian/Pahlawi/Pahlawanid settlements of the 2nd century BC.

Source? Diyarbakır Amele Meslek Lisesi, Kıroloji Fakültesi? :lol:

[Partizan]

If Ataturk accepted the treaty of Sevres, there would have been a state in the near east for every ethnic group except the Assyrians. And there wouldn't be so much hatred between us as their is now.

There wouldn't be anything like Turk also. Do you think Greeks and Armenians would let Turks live? No. Since Turkey was left unprotected with Sevres(no right to have army except gendarme forces etc.) it was just a plan for exterminating Turks. And got failed. Imperialists and their servants can cry but... Truth hurts.

[Queen B]

But civilians? During both Balkan Wars and so-called independence war of Greece, Turkish civilians were massacred. I'm not counting Turks killed in between 1919-1922.

Do you really want to know how many CIVILIANS you massacred , when you fought against ''invansion'' as you said.?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Pontus

Those Greeks rebelled and declared independence while we were getting invaded by several countries. What you except? Giving candies to them?

The pontic Greek genocide started in 1914. Your arguments are invalid.



Stop whining, Greeks in Turkey are in quite better situation than Turks in Greece, who can elect their muftis.

Sometimes I think, we should lock the door of Greek Patriarch and force all Greek Orthodox Christians in Turkey to be members of Turkish Orthodox Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocephalous_Turkish_Orthodox_Patriarchate). We have rights for doing a similar thing, since Turks and Pomaks in Western Thrace can't elect their religious leader. How the hell Greeks here can elect their patriarch?


Are you freaking kidding me?

You made pogroms and KILLED, DESTROYED and kicked out the the Greeks that lived in Turkey.

You have Chalki theological school CLOSED for many years.

You closed ALL schools in Imvros and Tenedos and ...

You fucking whine about the (increasing) Muslim minority here?

We should do to your minority what you did to ours, actually.



I don't say, Lausanne says :) Your state accepts it so you can't talk about "Kurdish minority in Turkey". Your state accepts them as Turks, sorry :)
Oh, yeah, right, that's the argument.
:thumb001:

[Onur]

Apparently for some, too much, to even create a thread about that. ;)
How about if Turkey would support Macedonian separatism as well as creation of Chameria and return of western Thrace to it`s rightful owners?

How about if we create camps for Albanian KLA in eastern Thrace, fund Macedonian separatism and transfer bombs, weapons to the Turks of western Thrace, would you not care about this at all?

Actually i always think that Turkey should have followed eye for an eye strategy with Greece. So, our secret service would have responded to you by doing all of these actions in return. Turkey is treating you much better than your state deserves. They could have organize islamic upheaval in Athens among Pakis, Afghan immigrants, support returning of Albanians to Chameria and fund their associations, support resurrection of Macedonian slavic language in northern Greece and autonomy for Turks of western Thrace.



Turkey is the south eastern version of the Third Reich, even today denying their genocides and oppressing millions of people.
You are saying this in just 2 weeks after you started live in Jerusalem? What? You gonna call us as goyim and start to hate Germany after a year?



Do you think Greeks and Armenians would let Turks live?
Do you think Armenians would let Kurds live?

The answer of this question is the reason of why we are living with kurds in Turkey now.

[Queen B]

23 million people to be accurate.

http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2012/9/turkey4166.htm

Sorry, I don't know the exact numbers.

[Partizan]

Yes.. but. Back in 1923 there was no Hellenic Republic. The Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) of Greece did recognise them as Turks and I wonder whether the Greek signature under the Lausanne Treaty is still legally binding since it was signed by an altogether different political entity.

Could be, however Lausanne is internationally accepted.


Of course the Greek Orthodox Church has more rights in Turkey than the Turks have in Greece. The Turks after all stole minor Asia from the Greeks.... and Turks in Greece are invaders.
That´s like Germany conquering half of Poland and saying: "Look, the Poles are allowed to have their own religion - how generous we are. Now we want the same rights for Germans that tried to conquer the other half of Poland." Ridiculous Turk invader logics.

Blah blah blah... If even we aren't ancient(we are, according to Sumerian-Turkic-Etruscan language connection theory by Alinei), we are here for around 1000 years and we are natives of there for 1000 years. Don't meddle your job into our affairs, Kraut.

[The Lawspeaker]

Could be, however Lausanne is internationally accepted.


But that doesn't necessarily mean that it is legally binding to Greece.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Saladin the Kurd? LOL in his family most names were Turkic originated, "Bori", "Tughtegin", "Turanshah"...


There is no proof of that
And his uncle was called Shirkuk, which means lion of the mountains in Kurdish. Just accept the fact that he is Kurdish, everyone else does, even the Arabs do, why can't the Turk?



As I know even Herodotus describes Scythians as a totally different nation than Persians, so probably they weren't even Iranic.


According to the book "Return of the Medes", they are.

And I never said the Kurds are the only ancestors of the Scythians. Other groups are too.



Nope, it has never been widely accepted. And there aren't any proofs for those claims, neither linguistically nor culturally. Just based on assumptions. For example as I know Georgians claim Karduchs as their ancestors too and to me, "Kartvel" sounds more similar to "Kardu" than "Kurd"


Gershevitch and Fisher consider the independent Kardouchoi or Carduchi as the ancestors of the Kurds.



Source?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feylis

But I don't really need a source. Feylis and Lurs are called Pahlawi and that is similar to Parthian

[ChildOfTheJin]

There wouldn't be anything like Turk also. Do you think Greeks and Armenians would let Turks live? No. Since Turkey was left unprotected with Sevres(no right to have army except gendarme forces etc.) it was just a plan for exterminating Turks. And got failed. Imperialists and their servants can cry but... Truth hurts.

You were allowed to have troops enough to defend Turkey. But why would you even want to have a huge army. Its not like you guys were planning to invade the ME, or were you?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/TreatyOfSevres_%28corrected%29.PNG/300px-TreatyOfSevres_%28corrected%29.PNG

[Partizan]

Do you really want to know how many CIVILIANS you massacred , when you fought against ''invansion'' as you said.?

At the end of 1922, still there were Greeks in Cappadocia and Black Sea. There were over 1.000.000 Greeks in Turkey. But population exchange happened. However after 1821, all traces of Turkish people in Morea were destroyed.


The pontic Greek genocide started in 1914. Your arguments are invalid.


If you check the page I sent, it writes rebellion dates back to 1900's. They were trying to wipe out all Turks from Black Sea region and they got their answer.

Are you freaking kidding me?

You made pogroms and KILLED, DESTROYED and kicked out the the Greeks that lived in Turkey.

You have Chalki theological school CLOSED for many years.

You closed ALL schools in Imvros and Tenedos and ...

You fucking whine about the (increasing) Muslim minority here?

We should do to your minority what you did to ours, actually.


Greeks here ELECT their Patriarches, however you don't allow Turks and other Muslims to choose their own Muftis. We should do the same and appoint patriarches as state :)

[ChildOfTheJin]

Im actually very tired of these arguments.

[Queen B]

At the end of 1922, still there were Greeks in Cappadocia and Black Sea. There were over 1.000.000 Greeks in Turkey. But population exchange happened. However after 1821, all traces of Turkish people in Morea were destroyed.
Did you , or did you not killed civilians in your ''fight against invaders''?
You massacred even more in our war of independence.
Chios, Psara are some to mention (and that were just in Greece).


If you check the page I sent, it writes rebellion dates back to 1900's. They were trying to wipe out all Turks from Black Sea region and they got their answer.
The page you sent says that they were thinking about aytonomy that days that they created lobbies, and stuff.
On the other hand, you sent Pontic Greeks to labor batallions as early as 1914.
Greeks in several villages (and in other places except Pontus) were massacred
By 1918 most of the Pontic Greek genocide have become true.



Greeks here ELECT their Patriarches, however you don't allow Turks and other Muslims to choose their own Muftis. We should do the same and appoint patriarches as state :)

Do it, and be my guest. You have closed the theological schools over there, and the patriarch must be a Turkish citizen.
Out of the 3.000 Greeks that left here, after your cruelties, how many of them had the time to study in Chalki, before you closed it?
Also, do the same as we do to elect that magic person (that had the time to study in Chalki and be a Turkish citizen) ask from Greeks to give you the list of those they want as patriarchs, and appoint a comittee to elect the best, as we do here.
;)
Btw, then, we will make some pogroms, close schools and theological schools, to be even :thumb001:

[ChildOfTheJin]

More evidence of Scythians as Kurdish ancestors:


Scythians

The Scythians, an nomadic Iranic steppe peoples, whose area of influence stretched from Central Asia to Eastern Europe. They've also left traces in Kurdistan.

Scythian Onomasticon
Valentyn Stetsyuk
Research on Prehistoric Ethnogenetic Processes in Eastern Europe
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/StetsyukHtm/StetsyukB2ch5En.htm

An article on the Scythian language's traces in modern language; in it they found a surprisingly high amount of Kurdish parallels.



1. (awawos) - Kurd. ebaboz “thief” is suitable for anthroponimic good.
2. (awlo:nakos) - Kurd. eble ”fool” and nekes “miserable”. A good junction for anthroponimics.
3. (awroagos) - Kurd. ebro “eyebrow”, agos “furrow” (can be “wrinkle”); Chuv. upran ”to look after” and aka “tillage”.
4. (adzos) - Kurd. aciz ”weak” or aza “free”; Chuv. uçă open”.
(argimpatoi) - Kurd. erqem “number” and feda ”sacrifice”; Chuv. arkan “to break” and păta stick”.
5. (ardagdakos) - Osset. ardar “leader”, Kurd. elder “leader” and dek “slyness”; Turkic languages give many other possibilities of translation, e.g. Chuv. artak “delight” and tăkăs “sour”, urtar “to anger”; com. Turkic ortaq (Chuv vărtăх) „a friend” and dyqyz (Chuv tăkăs „close, tight”), or artyq „great” и dağ „mountain”.
6. (ardarakos) – Osset. ardar “leader”, Kurd. elder “leader”, ardû “wood” and req “dry”. Arm ardaraxos „truthful”.
7. (asaros) - Osset. a and sær “headless”, Kurd. hesar “fence”.
8. (aspamithareos) - com. Ir. asp(a) “horse”, and Kurd. metha “prais” and rewe “herd”.
9. (auasios) – com. Ir. ovoz “voice”, Kurd. ĥewas “sense”, “sensitive”.
10. (auloudzelmis) - Kurd. hewil “help”or ewlî “holy” and zelam “man”.
11. (aulou-poris) - Kurd. ewlî “holy”, por “hair”.
12. (wadzos) - com. Ir. bazu “arm”, “wing”; Chuv. puç “head” vyçǎ “hunger”.
13. (walos) - Kurd. bala “top”; Chuv. vulă “trunk, stem”; OE wala, walu „stick”.
14. (wendzei) - Osset. bindzæ “bee”, Kurd. banz “jump”.
15. (wessa) - Kurd. beş „part, share“, or bes „sufficent“, or bəş “tribute”, or bêşe “small wood, forest”; Chuv. pěçě „thigh“ věç “finish”, OE wiss “sure, trustly”.
16. (witou) - Kurd. beta „to vanish“; Chuv. pětev ”body”, “amulet”.
17. (wiste:s) - Kurd. bistî “stalk” or bista “trusty” or bista “lover”.
18. (wolas) - Kurd., Pers. etc bolo “top”; Chuv. pulu “gingerbread”.
19. (boudzas) - Kurd. boz “grey”, bûz “ice”; Chuv. puç “head”.
(germanos) - com. Ir. garm/germ “warm”;
20. (geros) - Kurd. gewr “grey”;
21. (gola) - Kurd. gol “dog”, gole “senior herdsman”, Osset. gal “ox, bull”;
22. (dada) - com. Ir. dada “father”;
23. (dandaksarthon) - com. Ir. dandon “tooth and Kurd. şert ”agreement”; Chuv. šărt “oath”. The root  is fixed in epigraphics in North region of the Black Sea. Kurd. şert ”agreement” and Chuv. šărt “oath” coincides to it good phoneticly. It is interesting that an oath for tooth, words “I give the tooth” and a suitable gesture are present in criminal and even in children world nowadays. However the Kurdish word can be borrowed from Arabic. Compare .
24. (daou) – Kurd. daw “tail”; Chuv. tav 1. “gratitude”, 2. “dispute”;
25. (diagoras) - Kurd. dia “blessing” and gor “grave, tomb”;
26. (didumoksarthos) - Kurd. didan “tooth” (com. Ir. dandon) and şert ”condition”; Chuv. tytăm “control, management” and šărt “oath”. Although such word is also in Arabic (šart „condition”) Compare .
27. (didza) - Kurd. diz “thief”;
28. (didza-dzelmis) - Kurd. diz “thief” and zelam “man’;
29. (didzarou) - Kurd. diz “thief” and rûvi “fox”;
30. (dindou) - ir. din (Kurd. dîn) “faith”; better Chuv. těn “faith” and tav “gratitude”;
31. (domeo) - Kurd. dûmayî “remains”;
32. (doridzou) - Kurd. dor “circle”; Chuv. tură “god” and çăva “cemetery, Chuv. tări “lark” and çu “summer”.
33. (doulas) - Kurd. dol “ravine”;.
34. (eisgoudiou) - Kurd. e’yş “joy, spree, fun” and qude “proud”; Chuv. ěç “work” and kut “ass”; OE īs “ice”, gōd “good”.
35. (ergino) - Kurd. erk “job, matter” and îna “faith”; Chuv. er “to tie”and küme “truck”;
36. (dzadzous) - Kurd. zaza(n) – Kurdish tribe;
37. (dzaldzou) - Kurd. zal “old” and zo “cord; Chuv. çulça “leaf”;.
38. (dzeilas) - Kurd. zeyle (zehle) “pester”.
39. (zinna) - Kurd. zîn “saddle” and nav “girdle”; Chuv. çěn ‘to win”;
40. (dzoure) - com. Ir. zor/zur “force”; Chuv. çyră “light-brown”.
41. (dzopura) - Kurd. zopir “great”; Chuv. çupărla “to embrace”;
42. (dzopurion) - see previous;
43. (dzo:rsanos) - Ir zor/zur “strength, force”; Chuv. çur 1. “spring-time”, 2. “half” . 3. “to tear”, sǎn “face”, sǎnǎ “spear”, sun “to want”.
44. Išpakai (Scythian king or war-lord in Assyrian sources) – this name is a serious argument for Iranian origin of Scythians however it could not stem out of Ir aspa „a horse”, but out of Ir spaka „a dog”. One can find in Turkic languages some variants of explanation of the word but it really could have Iranian origin. Maybe Cimmerians named their enemy by such scornful name “a dog”.
45. (kardious) – different explanations are possible - Kurd. kerdî “furrow”; Chuv. kǎrt ”few”, xurt “worm”; Gr  “heart”.
46. (karsa) - Kurd. kerş “wood chips, splinters”; Chuv. xyrçă “spine”;
47. (kamasarue:s)- Kurd. kam , Osset. and other ir. kom „desipe, wish“; com. Ir. sar “head”; better Chuv. kăm “ashes“ and ără “grey”.
48. (ma) - Kurd. max “source”; Chuv. may ”side” or măy “neck”;
49. (madzis, madzas) - Kurd. maze “axis” or mazî “splinter”; better Lit mažas, Let mazs “small”;
50. (maito:nion) - com ir. maidan “place, stand’.
51. (me:sakou) - Kurd. maşaq “beloved”;
52. (mostion) - com. Ir. mast “drunk” or “bitter”;
53. (olgasus) - Kurd. olk 1. “province” 2. army”; Chuv alka “ear-ring”.
54. (owarga-dakos) - Kurd. warge “place, stand” and deq “plane, smooth”;
55. (ovaradzakon) – “a beaten tramp” (Afg avāra, Tal awərə, Kurd. êperо etc “tramp, vagabond”, com. Ir čak- “to beat”)
56. (pane:ios) - Kurd. pene ”secret”;
57. (panias) - see previous;
58. (pateiros) - Ir pata/pada “foot”, Kurd êrîş „footstep”.
(pistou) - Kurd. pist ”error, miss”;
59. (pourthake:s), (pourtauos) - Os fyrt “son”, Kurd. purt “hair”and Tal. taka “billy-goat”; Chuv. purtă “axe” and aka “ancient plough”;
60. (purre)- - Kurd. pûr “pheasant”;
61. (re:skouporis) - com. Ir. rişk “louse”, “nit” and Kurd. por “hair”;
62. (roume:talkas) - Kurd. rûmet “cheek” and elk “glutton”;
63. (sabada) - Pers. sabad, Afg. savada, Yag., Yazg. sabat, Kurd. sepet “basket; Chuv. săpat “face”;
64. (sabo:dakos) - perhaps as previous;
65. (seavagou) - Kurd. seav “otter”, se “a dog”, waq “sense, feeling”.
66. (seuthou) - Kurd. sewt “loud”or sewda “mind, reson”;
(basileus skilouros) - Kurd. şilor “plum”;
67. (sturakos) - Kurd. stûr, Osset. styr, sutur and other Iranian “great, strong, thick”;
68. (sturanos) - see previous;
69. (taroulou) - com. Ir. tar/tor “dark” and Kurd. law “child”;
70. (a tribe on the north of Scythia, mentioned by Herodotus,)Thyrsagetae, according to Valerius Flaccus – Abayev explained the name as “quick deer” (Pers, Kurd tūr “ardent”, Os sag “deer”). One can pay attention that morpheme getai/ketai is present in some people names ( , , ). Beside this, Thracian tribes  are known too. We can conjecture that this word means “people”. The most near on meaning is Chuv kĕtü “herd, flock, crowd”. The Thissagetae means “furious people” (OE đyssa “ruffian”). If the form of Valerius Flaccus is more correct, what is possible as it correspond the name  (see), then Thyrsagetae – “the people of giants or sorcerers” (OE đyrs „giant, demon, sorcerer”).
71. (pourtheiou) (pourtauos) - Kurd. purt “hair”; Chuv. purtă “axe”, OE furđor “forward”.
72. (sadaiou) - Os sädä “hundred”; Cuv sut “to sell” and ujav “holiday”; Kurd sade, Afg sada “easy”; OE sāda “string”, iow “yew”.

Genetic evidence:

Scythians are often linked to the paternal haplogroup of R1a1, one which a high amount of Kurds also posses; depending on the group tested, R1a1 can range from 12 to 25% among Kurds.

http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf

Of course, this does not necessarily mean that this is inherited from Scythians, other Iranic groups also likely carried R1a1.

Hats
Something I've posted earlier on the forum:
the pointy hats Kurds are often depicted as wearing in antique images bear a striking resemblance to the hats of the Scythians.

http://www.teenwitch.com/magick/supplies/pict/scythians.jpg

http://www.payvand.com/news/03/mar/nyimg10.jpg

http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/153/588/617_001.jpg

http://www.heatons-of-tisbury.co.uk/images/arabia/kurd.jpg

http://www.printsoldandrare.com/middleeast/009mide.jpg

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/524191/524191,1297456848,1/stock-photo-antique-illustration-of-kurdish-man-in-traditional-clothing-original-from-drawing-of-duhousset-70970269.jpg

[Pecheneg]

i wonder how was the word "Turk" able the unite kurds, greeks, iranians and even some germans and peruvians against us. :laugh:


http://g1210.hizliresim.com/12/w/fcvgj.jpg (http://*******/c25MCx)

[ficuscarica]

You are saying this in just 2 weeks after you started live in Jerusalem? What? You gonna call us as goyim and start to hate Germany after a year?

That trick doesn´t work. Remember, I know your people, they have been destroying my country for 50 years now...
You won´t get away with distracting from the actual topic, which is what Turks always try when they realize that their lies aren´t working anymore. This thread is about the Greeks and their support for the PKK. And the Greeks supporting the PKK is as logical as the Polish supporting the Russians against Hitler.

[ficuscarica]

Blah blah blah... If even we aren't ancient(we are, according to Sumerian-Turkic-Etruscan language connection theory by Alinei), we are here for around 1000 years and we are natives of there for 1000 years. Don't meddle your job into our affairs, Kraut.

You are not as native as the real natives, the Greeks, though. Therefore they obviously have other rights than Turkish invaders in Greece, who simply should be kicked out.

[Partizan]

There is no proof of that
And his uncle was called Shirkuk, which means lion of the mountains in Kurdish. Just accept the fact that he is Kurdish, everyone else does, even the Arabs do, why can't the Turk?

Than I can show you Turkish rulers with Persian names, like Keyhüsrev. Sherko/Shirkuk is also a Persian word. So there is nothing abnormal. However abnormal thing is, a Kurdish(!) dynasty has a person with the name of Turanshah:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan-Shah





According to the book "Return of the Medes", they are.

And I never said the Kurds are the only ancestors of the Scythians. Other groups are too.


If I recall, Herodotus especially insists on that, their armors, clothing and faces were very different than Persians.


Gershevitch and Fisher consider the independent Kardouchoi or Carduchi as the ancestors of the Kurds.

As far as I know, Minorsky claimed that they were ancestors of Kurds but later he revoked that.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feylis

But I don't really need a source. Feylis and Lurs are called Pahlawi and that is similar to Parthian

My point is, yes, Parthians were Iranicised. However their prodecessors, Scythians weren't an Iranic folk. Mainstream theory claims that they are, but there aren't enough proofs. There is no supporting argument for Scythian being an Iranic language. It is not even found. However based on life-style(horseback archers, nomads) and the area(great steppes), they are most possibly proto-Turkic.


You were allowed to have troops enough to defend Turkey. But why would you even want to have a huge army. Its not like you guys were planning to invade the ME, or were you?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/TreatyOfSevres_%28corrected%29.PNG/300px-TreatyOfSevres_%28corrected%29.PNG

Defend? Gendarme forces could defend Turkey against a possible invasion? :picard1: Not to forget, even Turkish majoritly cities were ceded to other nations. Like İzmir wasn't Greek populated except 2 districts however it was ceded to Greeks. Or Erzurum was mostly Turkish but it was ceded to Armenians. I don't even mention fully Turkish cities like Adana, Mersin, Antalya etc. were ceded to Italy and France. Was that fair? Atatürk just defeated those imperialists and he had to do that. If Atatürk wouldn't win the war, neither FLN nor Indian and Pakistani nationalists would have enough courage to fight against Imperialism. You can check quotes of Messali Hadj, Jawaharlal Nehru, Mohammed Iqbal and Mohammed Ali Jinnah about Atatürk.


More evidence of Scythians as Kurdish ancestors:


Scythians

The Scythians, an nomadic Iranic steppe peoples, whose area of influence stretched from Central Asia to Eastern Europe. They've also left traces in Kurdistan.

Scythian Onomasticon
Valentyn Stetsyuk
Research on Prehistoric Ethnogenetic Processes in Eastern Europe
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/StetsyukHtm/StetsyukB2ch5En.htm

An article on the Scythian language's traces in modern language; in it they found a surprisingly high amount of Kurdish parallels.



Genetic evidence:

Scythians are often linked to the paternal haplogroup of R1a1, one which a high amount of Kurds also posses; depending on the group tested, R1a1 can range from 12 to 25% among Kurds.

http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf

Of course, this does not necessarily mean that this is inherited from Scythians, other Iranic groups also likely carried R1a1.

Hats
Something I've posted earlier on the forum:
the pointy hats Kurds are often depicted as wearing in antique images bear a striking resemblance to the hats of the Scythians.

http://www.teenwitch.com/magick/supplies/pict/scythians.jpg

http://www.payvand.com/news/03/mar/nyimg10.jpg

http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/153/588/617_001.jpg

http://www.heatons-of-tisbury.co.uk/images/arabia/kurd.jpg

http://www.printsoldandrare.com/middleeast/009mide.jpg

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/524191/524191,1297456848,1/stock-photo-antique-illustration-of-kurdish-man-in-traditional-clothing-original-from-drawing-of-duhousset-70970269.jpg

http://www.hunmagyar.org/turan/tatar/tatar-origin.html

About Turkic(Mostly Tatars of Kazan are mentioned in this article)- Scythian kinship. Since it is copyrighted, I can't copy-paste, nor I have time for paraphrase it.



Im actually very tired of these arguments.

Me too :bored:

[Partizan]

Did you , or did you not killed civilians in your ''fight against invaders''?

Less than Greeks did. And those killed Greeks were killed by irregular gangs, not by army. Anyway, if you have read what Onur posted about rapes, pillages and such other inhuman acts of Greek army(and local Greeks with them), you can understand why some Turks have done those.


You massacred even more in our war of independence.
Chios, Psara are some to mention (and that were just in Greece).

What about massacre of Tripolitsa against local Turkish and Jewish population? What about Navarino massacre?

From W. Alison Phillips:

"For three days the miserable inhabitants were given over to lust and cruelty of a mob of savages. Neither sex nor age was spared. Women and children were tortured before being put to death. So great was the slaughter that Kolokotronis himself says that, from the gate to the citadel his horse’s hoofs never touched the ground. His path of triumph was carpeted with corpses. At the end of two days, the wretched remnant of the Mussulmans were deliberately collected, to the number of some two thousand souls, of every age and sex, but principally women and children, were led out to a ravine in the neighboring mountains and there butchered like cattle."

From Kolokotronis himself:


["Inside the town they had begun to massacre. ... I rushed to the palace ... "If you wish to hurt these Albanians," I cried, "kill me rather; for, while I am a living man, whoever first makes the attempt, him will I kill the first." ... I was faithful to my word of honor ... Tripolitsa was three miles in circumference. The [Greek] host which entered it, cut down and were slaying men, women, and children from Friday till Sunday. Thirty-two thousand were reported to have been slain. One Hydriote [boasted that he had] killed ninety. About a hundred Greeks were killed; but the end came [thus]: a proclamation was issued that the slaughter must cease. ... When I entered Tripolitsa, they showed me a plane tree in the market-place where the Greeks had always been hung. I sighed. "Alas!" I said, "how many of my own clan — of my own race — have been hung there!" And I ordered it to be cut down. I felt some consolation then from the slaughter of the Turks. ... [Before the fall] we had formed a plan of proposing to the Turks that they should deliver Tripolitsa into our hands, and that we should, in that case, send persons into it to gather the spoils together, which were then to be apportioned and divided among the different districts for the benefit of the nation; but who would listen?"

From George Finlay:


"Women, wounded with musketballs and sabre-cuts, rushed to the sea, seeking to escape, and were deliberately shot. Mothers robbed of their clothes, with infants in their arms plunged into the sea to conceal themselves from shame, and they were them made a mark for inhuman riflemen. Greeks sized infants from their mother's breasts and dashed them against rocks. Children, three and four years old, were hurled living into the sea and left to drown. When the massacre was ended, the dead bodies washed ashore, or piled on the beach, threatened to cause a pestilence..."

Look throught your history before blaming Turks for everything. I'm afraid, someday the great anti-Turkish league of Kurds-Persians-Greeks-Armenians-Germans will blame Turks for killing Martians and Venutians.


The page you sent says that they were thinking about aytonomy that days that they created lobbies, and stuff.


Seems like preparation for rebellion... Anyway, little details :rolleyes:


On the other hand, you sent Pontic Greeks to labor batallions as early as 1914.

Country was in war and there was one minority who never stopped their irredentist dreams. So?


Greeks in several villages (and in other places except Pontus) were massacred

Well, just men who were possibly in the preparation of rebellion were executed.


By 1918 most of the Pontic Greek genocide have become true.


That's why there were thousands of hundreds Greeks in Black Sea region before population exchange happened :picard1: Please go and ask Anatolian Greeks in your country, where they came from. If more than half of them won't answer with cities like Trabzon, Amasya, Sivas, Kastamonu, Samsun and other Northern Anatolian cities, then I'm a bushman from South Africa. If we killed them all, how come most of Greeks who came to Greece with population exchange are Pontians?


Do it, and be my guest. You have closed the theological schools over there, and the patriarch must be a Turkish citizen.
Out of the 3.000 Greeks that left here, after your cruelties, how many of them had the time to study in Chalki, before you closed it?
Also, do the same as we do to elect that magic person (that had the time to study in Chalki and be a Turkish citizen) ask from Greeks to give you the list of those they want as patriarchs, and appoint a comittee to elect the best, as we do here.
;)
Btw, then, we will make some pogroms, close schools and theological schools, to be even :thumb001:

We give them right to choose inside Patriarch. Unlike your government chooses Muftis. Anyway, I think abolishing Greek Orthodox Church and recognising Turkish Orthodox Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocephalous_Turkish_Orthodox_Patriarchate) as only represantive of Orthodoxes in Turkey is a better idea.


You are not as native as the real natives, the Greeks, though. Therefore they obviously have other rights than Turkish invaders in Greece, who simply should be kicked out.

Greeks are natives so? More than half of them are Hellenised Arvanite Albanians. If even Turks of Turkey are purebred Mongols from Mongolia, still today's Greeks aren't natives of Anatolia:


"The Usable Past" - 2003
By K.S Brown & Professor Yannis Hamilakis

Page 140:

"..As a result of a number of historical factors, much of the rural population in central Greece was Albanian-speaking by the time of the creation of modern Greek state in the 1830s"




"ALBANIA - The Rise of a Kingdom"
By J.Swire - 1971

Page 11:

"...In an article in the Greek monthly magazine, Parnassos - February 1916, it is stated that "the majority of our soldiers speak to one another in the Albanian language....a very deplorable
habit.....It is expedient that this habit be destroyed by all necessary and vigorous means". Prince Lichonowsky wrote: "the so-called Greek national dess itself is of Albanian orgin".



VENIZELOS (Famous Greek Statesman - Prime Minister: 1910-1920, 1932)

By Herbert Adams Gibbons, Ph.D
[At The Peace Conferance]

Page 346:

"...Venizelos advanced the famous theory of national consciousness as the test of nationality..."One may be temped", he said, "to raise the objection that a substantial portion of the Greek population uses Albanian as its mother tongue, and is, consequently, in all probability, of Albanian orgin"



The Empty Cradle of Democracy
Alexandra Halkias

Page 59:

"...Through the end of the revolution in 1830, Greeks, including most of the nineteenth-century nationalists, seemed to have had a vague but firm sense of continuity from ancient to modern Greece, though this was not articulated in racial terms but on the basis of a common language, history and consciousness. In effect at this time, whoever called themselves a Greek was a Greek. It is because of this that many Greek-speaking Albanians, Slavs, Rumanians and Vlachs were easily assimilated and indeed became important players in Greek patriotism at the time.”




POLITICS IN MODERN GREECE
By Professor Keith R. Legg

Page 86:
LANGUAGE

"..At the time of independence, the range in local dialects was significant; substantial portions of the population spoke Albanian"



New York Times - June 2009

Nikos Dimou

“.....We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us,‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.”


Not to forget Vlach, Slavic and Turkish(nearly %40 of Anatolian Greeks were Turkish speaking Karamanides, who are in Greece at the moment) people got Hellenized and all those bunch of renegades call themselves as Greek. So, if a Greek can claim Anatolia as his/her land, also a Romanian, a Chechen or a Jordanian can.


i wonder how was the word "Turk" able the unite kurds, greeks, iranians and even some germans and peruvians against us. :laugh:


http://g1210.hizliresim.com/12/w/fcvgj.jpg (http://*******/c25MCx)

Dude, "Bir Türk dünyaya bedeldir" :cool:

Anyway, I have more important jobs to do instead of wasting time here... See you all after 3.rd November!

[ChildOfTheJin]

Than I can show you Turkish rulers with Persian names, like Keyhüsrev. Sherko/Shirkuk is also a Persian word. So there is nothing abnormal. However abnormal thing is, a Kurdish(!) dynasty has a person with the name of Turanshah:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan-Shah



But I don't think Turan Shah was related to Saladin. However he was given a few Kurdish soldiers by Saladin to him.

Another thing that proves Saladin was Kurdish is that he spread the Shafi'i sect of Sunni Islam, which is what the majority of Kurdish Muslims follow. Majority of the Turks follow the Hanafi sect.



If I recall, Herodotus especially insists on that, their armors, clothing and faces were very different than Persians.


The religious beliefs of the Scythians was a type of Pre-Zoroastrian Iranian religion and differed from the post-Zoroastrian Iranian thoughts.[44] Foremost in the Scythian pantheon stood Tabiti, who was later replaced by Atar, the fire-pantheon of Iranian tribes, and Agni, the fire deity of Indo-Aryans.[44] The Scythian belief was a more archaic stage than the Zoroastrian and Hindu systems. The use of cannabis to induce trance and divination by soothsayers was a characteristic of the Scythian belief system.[44]

That was from wikipedia.



My point is, yes, Parthians were Iranicised. However their prodecessors, Scythians weren't an Iranic folk. Mainstream theory claims that they are, but there aren't enough proofs. There is no supporting argument for Scythian being an Iranic language. It is not even found. However based on life-style(horseback archers, nomads) and the area(great steppes), they are most possibly proto-Turkic.


Its probably just because of their location. Its the same with Kurds and Turks, we share similar cultural music (such as Halay) and other things and thats all because we have been neighbors. I think the same goes for the Scythians. But one of the statues of a Scythian leader had Turanid among him.

Like you said, we do not know what type of people the Scythians were, but we can be sure if we have Scythian ancestry. And apparently, it is present among many people in Eurasia, or claimed to be present.



Defend? Gendarme forces could defend Turkey against a possible invasion? Not to forget, even Turkish majoritly cities were ceded to other nations. Like İzmir wasn't Greek populated except 2 districts however it was ceded to Greeks. Or Erzurum was mostly Turkish but it was ceded to Armenians. I don't even mention fully Turkish cities like Adana, Mersin, Antalya etc. were ceded to Italy and France. Was that fair? Atatürk just defeated those imperialists and he had to do that. If Atatürk wouldn't win the war, neither FLN nor Indian and Pakistani nationalists would have enough courage to fight against Imperialism. You can check quotes of Messali Hadj, Jawaharlal Nehru, Mohammed Iqbal and Mohammed Ali Jinnah about Atatürk.


Gendarmerie forces are among the Turkish military today.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Turkishsoldiermp5.jpg/220px-Turkishsoldiermp5.jpg

Scythians and Parthians location:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png/220px-Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png

The map suggests Turkic tribes and Uralics were North and North East of Scythia while the Indo Aryans were further South and West.

Maybe this means the Scythians were a mixed people?

[Queen B]

Less than Greeks did. And those killed Greeks were killed by irregular gangs, not by army.


Anyway, if you have read what Onur posted about rapes, pillages and such other inhuman acts of Greek army(and local Greeks with them), you can understand why some Turks have done those.
I don't pay attention to Onur's hallunications. Onurs posts and sources have many times been proven to be wrong. I expected something more reliable from you.


What about massacre of Tripolitsa against local Turkish and Jewish population? What about Navarino massacre?

First of all, unlike Turkish typical behaviour of denying everything, I didn't say that those didn't happened.
I just stated WHEN those happen. They happen during our war of independence.
Sorry for not asking you kindly to leave, Partizan. Yeap, our savoir-vivre is not that good, so we made a war to get rid of the opressors.

Just like Navarino, or Tripolitsa that you mention, we also have Chios Massacre, we also have Kasos massacre, we also have Psara,Crete, Cyprus and of course we also have massacres against Greeks in Constantinopole and other cities with Greek population.

So? Your point is?



Look throught your history before blaming Turks for everything.

Ehm, look at our history? Yeap, let me check :

Turkish Occupation of my country for 400 years.



Seems like preparation for rebellion... Anyway, little details :rolleyes:

Ohhhh fuck, we should kill all the Turks of Muslim minority in Greek then.
They are dreaming of Autonomy of Western Thrace.
Reason for a genocide, hurray :dancing:




That's why there were thousands of hundreds Greeks in Black Sea region before population exchange happened :picard1: Please go and ask Anatolian Greeks in your country, where they came from. If more than half of them won't answer with cities like Trabzon, Amasya, Sivas, Kastamonu, Samsun and other Northern Anatolian cities, then I'm a bushman from South Africa. If we killed them all, how come most of Greeks who came to Greece with population exchange are Pontians?

Ehm, who says the majority are pontians?
The majority is from Asia Minor.


We give them right to choose inside Patriarch. Unlike your government chooses Muftis. Anyway, I think abolishing Greek Orthodox Church and recognising Turkish Orthodox Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocephalous_Turkish_Orthodox_Patriarchate) as only represantive of Orthodoxes in Turkey is a better idea.

No problem :thumb001:

You killed, pogromed, CLOSED theological schools, and closed schools, and your problem is that?
If only our minority was treated as beneficial as the Muslim is in Greece.

[Incal]

i wonder how was the word "Turk" able the unite kurds, greeks, iranians and even some germans and peruvians against us. :laugh:

That's because Turks are some of the worst people in this world. The fact that they believe everything their government tells them like sheep-minded zombies without any kind of hesitation or complain just confirms they are still living in the dark ages and adds for other people's disgust.

[The Lawspeaker]

That trick doesn´t work. Remember, I know your people, they have been destroying my country for 50 years now...
You won´t get away with distracting from the actual topic, which is what Turks always try when they realize that their lies aren´t working anymore. This thread is about the Greeks and their support for the PKK. And the Greeks supporting the PKK is as logical as the Polish supporting the Russians against Hitler.
Your prefered people (Jews) have been destroying Germany and Europe for generations and the very same people also brought in the Turks. Go figure.

[Cannabis Sativa]

i wonder how was the word "Turk" able the unite kurds, greeks, iranians and even some germans and peruvians against us. :laugh:


http://g1210.hizliresim.com/12/w/fcvgj.jpg (http://*******/c25MCx)

Apart from kurds, Greeks, Iranians and those some Germans, who cares a mulatto with negroid admixture think about us. Surely if i had such mulatto+negroid admixture pretending to be European i would attack Turks too. Pathetic but true.

TYH4F7ACKbk

[Pecheneg]

That's because Turks are some of the worst people in this world. The fact that they believe everything their government tells them like sheep-minded zombies without any kind of hesitation or complain just confirms they are still living in the dark ages and adds for other people's disgust.

Apparently you know nothing about our politics, government and people. You even don't know why do you hate us. Yea i know "bitching about Turks" is one of the shortest ways to become "honorary white". But since you don't have enough balls to admit it, i suggest you to find an excuse for your hatred of Turks.

[Incal]

Apparently you know nothing about our politics, government and people. You even don't know why do you hate us. Yea i know "bitching about Turks" is one of the shortest ways to become "honorary white". But since you don't have enough balls to admit it, i suggest you to find an excuse for your hatred of Turks.

Hate is such a strong word, I dislike Turks. Why? Because they represent almost everything I'm against of.

And drop that "honorary white" crap, it's getting old. Do Kurds also want to be honorary whites? Huh?

[Cannabis Sativa]

Hate is such a strong word, I dislike Turks. Why? Because they represent almost everything I'm against of.

And drop that "honorary white" crap, it's getting old. Do Kurds also want to be honorary whites? Huh?

It's not getting old, kurds trying to portray them as Scythians is not new. Look at some of those posts if you really wish. So yes they want to be honorary whites, but the fact is that yes, kurds are whiter comparing to those who have negroid admixture for sure. :bored:

[ChildOfTheJin]

It's not getting old, kurds trying to portray them as Scythians is not new. Look at some of those posts if you really wish. So yes they want to be honorary whites, but the fact is that yes, kurds are whiter comparing to those who have negroid admixture for sure. :bored:

Who said Kurds want to be honorary white?

[Incal]

Who said Kurds want to be honorary white?

Turkish pathetic excuses as always, they can't accept they are some of the most disgusting and repulsing people in the world. Since their country's propaganda machine brainwashes them to believe turks are beings made of light or some crap like that. When reality crashes with their imposed dogma they have to come up with really sad excuses: Kurds and Armenians hate Turks because they wanna be white, not because they massacred them and stole their lands. Oh no. Just because they wanna be white. Greeks hate Turks for the same reason too. Why do Germans and Austrians hate Turks? I thought they were white already. Probably they wanna be whiter. Now you see what happens when you are taught from an early age to just follow a dogma without questioning yourself or the world: You grow up as a retard and make everybody around you do a facepalm.

[Jerreiche]

The enemy of Turkey is our friend. Kurds may be savages, but as long as they keep busy messing with the Turks, we can give them support.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Kurds may be savages

Love you too :D

[kabeiros]

Actually i always think that Turkey should have followed eye for an eye strategy with Greece. So, our secret service would have responded to you by doing all of these actions in return. Turkey is treating you much better than your state deserves. They could have organize islamic upheaval in Athens among Pakis, Afghan immigrants, support returning of Albanians to Chameria and fund their associations, support resurrection of Macedonian slavic language in northern Greece and autonomy for Turks of western Thrace.

The funny thing Onur is that your secret services already do most of this things... they have also put fires in Greece (during Ecevit's presidency I think) and they are responsible for all the Muslim illegal immigrants who have invaded our country.

[Jerreiche]

it amazes me to see so many turks in an european cultural forum.. would always thought their sights pointed towards the east. with all their central asian brothers

[Hayalet]

And drop that "honorary white" crap, it's getting old.
Well, it's a fact that you don't have the spine to defend the bruthas, as you'd call them, here as in places like Anthroforum. On the other hand, I don't see Turkish posters unnaturally picking on the usual perceived enemies of white nationalism or European preservation. That's called integrity.

[Incal]

Well, it's a fact that you don't have the spine to defend the bruthas, as you'd call them, here as in places like Anthroforum. On the other hand, I don't see Turkish posters unnaturally picking on the usual perceived enemies of white nationalism or European preservation. That's called integrity.

By bruthas you mean black people in general? Or just Aframs? In any case I think my position it's pretty known among all fora: I don't regard black people as a whole bloc: I like LatAm blacks, African ones so-so and for some exceptions not a big fan of aframs but I'm a big fan of IR porn.

And FYI, white nationalism perceives anything not white as enemies, not only Turks.

[Cannabis Sativa]

The enemy of Turkey is our friend. Kurds may be savages, but as long as they keep busy messing with the Turks, we can give them support.

Dutch thought same way when we kept you busy at the time.

http://www.themuslimtimes.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/thumb-geuzenpenning-300x173.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

Dutch thought same way when we kept you busy at the time.

http://www.themuslimtimes.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/thumb-geuzenpenning-300x173.jpg

Thanks for keeping them busy. :thumb001:

[Hayalet]

By bruthas you mean black people in general? Or just Aframs? In any case I think my position it's pretty known among all fora: I don't regard black people as a whole bloc: I like LatAm blacks, African ones so-so and for some exceptions not a big fan of aframs but I'm a big fan of IR porn.
Black people in general. And no, you don't seem to be making that distinction normally; I have seen you engage in heated discussion against your fellow Latin Americans to defend black people, but not against the WN crowd.


And FYI, white nationalism perceives anything not white as enemies, not only Turks.
Well, after all, there must be a reason why your irrational display of hatred is targeted at Muslims in general. Don't think your occasional, out-of-the-blue slams at Jews and/or Israel go unnoticed either.

[Incal]

Black people in general. And no, you don't seem to be making that distinction normally; I have seen you engage in heated discussion against your fellow Latin Americans to defend black people, but not against the WN crowd.

That comes as an oxymoron to me since Latin Americans are also black. Can you show me an example? Cause I can't really remember any of those cases.




Well, after all, there must be a reason why your irrational display of hatred is targeted at Muslims in general. Don't think your occasional, out-of-the-blue slams at Jews and/or Israel go unnoticed either.

It's simple, I consider myself a progressist and the overwhelming majority of muslims are against progress. So they make this world a worst place. I'm against retrogress, ergo, I'm against muslims.

Same with jews. I detest materialist people and one of the reasons this world is going to hell is because of extreme materialism and the disregard of other more important things. Materialism disgusts me, hence, jews disgust me.

[Partizan]

But I don't think Turan Shah was related to Saladin. However he was given a few Kurdish soldiers by Saladin to him.

Another thing that proves Saladin was Kurdish is that he spread the Shafi'i sect of Sunni Islam, which is what the majority of Kurdish Muslims follow. Majority of the Turks follow the Hanafi sect.

Turan Shah was brother of Saladin. By the way, even Ghaznid ruler Sabuktigin was a Shafi'i. So it doesn't prove anything.




The religious beliefs of the Scythians was a type of Pre-Zoroastrian Iranian religion and differed from the post-Zoroastrian Iranian thoughts.[44] Foremost in the Scythian pantheon stood Tabiti, who was later replaced by Atar, the fire-pantheon of Iranian tribes, and Agni, the fire deity of Indo-Aryans.[44] The Scythian belief was a more archaic stage than the Zoroastrian and Hindu systems. The use of cannabis to induce trance and divination by soothsayers was a characteristic of the Scythian belief system.[44]

That was from wikipedia.

Well, again wikipedia:


The primary archaeological context of horse sacrifice are burials, notably chariot burials, but graves with horse remains reach from the Eneolithic well into historical times. Herodotus describes the execution of horses at the burial of a Scythian king, and Iron Age kurgan graves known to contain horses number in the hundreds.

The Scythians had some reverence for the stag, which is one of the most common motifs in their artwork, especially at funeral sites. The swift animal was believed to speed the spirits of the dead on their way, which perhaps explains the curious antlered headdresses found on horses buried at Pazyryk.


It is the same in Turkic tribes, the Khagan gets buried with his tools, even horse.

Also the details about so-called "proto-Zoroastrianism" seems like more Hellene influenced than Iranian influenced according to another wiki article. But of course it doesn't make them Hellenes, many other civilizations were influenced by Hellene mythology and religion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_religion



Like you said, we do not know what type of people the Scythians were, but we can be sure if we have Scythian ancestry. And apparently, it is present among many people in Eurasia, or claimed to be present.


What I try to focus here is, their core population.



Gendarmerie forces are among the Turkish military today.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Turkishsoldiermp5.jpg/220px-Turkishsoldiermp5.jpg

True, however according to Sevres, Turkish army shall only have gendarme forces, no navy, no cannons, no tanks. Such a limitation is not present for neighbours of Turkey like Greece, Armenia, Italy, France and Britain(mandate areas) according to Sevres. So who could guarantee that, someone wouldn't try to wipe Turkey out? Lausanne saved Turkish nation from dirty hands of Imperialism. And if someone wants Sevres once again, be sure, Turkish people won't be as calm as Atatürk.



I don't pay attention to Onur's hallunications. Onurs posts and sources have many times been proven to be wrong. I expected something more reliable from you.

Just remember discussion in temporary forum. Could you, Dusan or any anti-Turk answer him about crimes of Greek army? I was mentioning them. He quoted from foreign newspapers and one Greek historian about especially rape and pillagation of Western Anatolia. Since I don't have time to reach those sources, I'm just reminding you who posted it.


First of all, unlike Turkish typical behaviour of denying everything, I didn't say that those didn't happened.
I just stated WHEN those happen. They happen during our war of independence.
Sorry for not asking you kindly to leave, Partizan. Yeap, our savoir-vivre is not that good, so we made a war to get rid of the opressors.

So you don't have right to call punishment of Pontians and other Minor Asia Greeks, they were backstabbing us in WW1(Pontians) and independence war of Turkey against imperialism. Also so-called victims' numbers are way lower than Turks killed by Greeks since 1821.


Just like Navarino, or Tripolitsa that you mention, we also have Chios Massacre, we also have Kasos massacre, we also have Psara,Crete, Cyprus and of course we also have massacres against Greeks in Constantinopole and other cities with Greek population.


But none of them can be counted as massacres, compared to Navarin and Tripoliçe.



Ehm, look at our history? Yeap, let me check :

Turkish Occupation of my country for 400 years.


We all know recent massacres of Italians and Germans against the Greeks in WW2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Greece)).(It is not necesarry to state who tried to save you (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%81%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BB%C E%BF%CF%8D%CF%82_(%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%BC%CF%8C%CF%80%C E%BB%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BF))) Why don't you whin about that so? Why only "Turks" are guilty for defending themselves?


Ohhhh fuck, we should kill all the Turks of Muslim minority in Greek then.
They are dreaming of Autonomy of Western Thrace.
Reason for a genocide, hurray :dancing:


Do they organise like those Pontians?

http://img.blogcu.com/uploads/samsun03_somagiparixp0.jpg


Ehm, who says the majority are pontians?
The majority is from Asia Minor.

Based on experiences IRL, especially Greeks from Selanik are mostly from cities like Amasya, Sivas and Samsun.


No problem :thumb001:

You killed, pogromed, CLOSED theological schools, and closed schools, and your problem is that?
If only our minority was treated as beneficial as the Muslim is in Greece.

Those pogroms were sued in courts and guilty ones got their punishments. Even one of the reasons of Menderes' execution was Pogrom. About theological school, one state who even doesn't allow direct election of a Muslim population's mufti doesn't have rights to whin about it.


That's because Turks are some of the worst people in this world. The fact that they believe everything their government tells them like sheep-minded zombies without any kind of hesitation or complain just confirms they are still living in the dark ages and adds for other people's disgust.

Einstein, including me, all Turkish users here are opponents of ruling party AKP.

[Partizan]

Kurds and Armenians hate Turks because they wanna be white, not because they massacred them and stole their lands. Oh no. Just because they wanna be white. Greeks hate Turks for the same reason too.

Says a "mostly white" invader in Amerindian land.

[Queen B]

So you don't have right to call punishment of Pontians and other Minor Asia Greeks, they were backstabbing us in WW1(Pontians) and independence war of Turkey against imperialism. Also so-called victims' numbers are way lower than Turks killed by Greeks since 1821.

What the heck you are talking about?
You exterminated thousands of Pontic Greeks out of the blue.
First, the killing of Pontians were against the ''invansion''. Later, pontians tried to rebel and now backstabbed in ww1?
Decide for what reason they were genocided ... :picard2:


But none of them can be counted as massacres, compared to Navarin and Tripoliçe.

Yeap, right. Your massacres can't be counted as massacres :picard2:

Chios massacre : 43.000
Messolongi : 8.000
Kasos: 7.000
Psara : 7.000

Tripolitsa : 10.500
Navarino : 3.000



Why don't you whin about that so? Why only "Turks" are guilty for defending themselves?

Because neither Germans nor Italians DENY what they did. THat's why.
Also, in the case of Pontics you didn't defend yourselves, but started a massacre against Greek population (like you did with the extermination of Greek minority there).

Noone can blame today's Turks/Italians/Germans of the doings of the past. The problem is that YOU deny what you did,blame everyone but yourself, while they(Italians/Germans) don't


Based on experiences IRL, especially Greeks from Selanik are mostly from cities like Amasya, Sivas and Samsun.
I lived in Thessaloniki for 4 years, and in Macedonia for 16 years.
My father lived in Thessaloniki for more than 35 years, my grandmother for more than 53 years, my grandfather for all his life (66 years, he died young). So, let me know better about where they are from
.
Many refugee places, either in Thessaloniki, or in Athens, they have names that the population have come from, with the ''New'' before.

Examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Moudania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleftherio-Kordelio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triglia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menemeni
Nea Maditos (from Gallipoli)
Nea Michaniona (from Pontus)
Nea Magnisia (Manisa)

Athens:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Filadelfeia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Erythraia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Chalkidona
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Smyrni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kesariani
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Ionia


Those pogroms were sued in courts and guilty ones got their punishments. Even one of the reasons of Menderes' execution was Pogrom. About theological school, one state who even doesn't allow direct election of a Muslim population's mufti doesn't have rights to whin about it.
[quote]
The fact that the got their punishments doesn't change the fact: You did it.

So, if you FIRST do what you do, it is YOU that you should stop whine about, don't ya thing?



Einstein, including me, all Turkish users here are opponents of ruling party AKP.

[Partizan]

What the heck you are talking about?
You exterminated thousands of Pontic Greeks out of the blue.
First, the killing of Pontians were against the ''invansion''. Later, pontians tried to rebel and now backstabbed in ww1?
Decide for what reason they were genocided ... :picard2:

Yes, Pontian rebellion dates back to start of 1900's. And there was not a systemical massacre, only potential rebels were executed.


Yeap, right. Your massacres can't be counted as massacres :picard2:

Chios massacre : 43.000
Messolongi : 8.000
Kasos: 7.000
Psara : 7.000

Tripolitsa : 10.500
Navarino : 3.000

Who is your source? 19.th century's Philhellenist Imperialists?



Because neither Germans nor Italians DENY what they did. THat's why.
Also, in the case of Pontics you didn't defend yourselves, but started a massacre against Greek population (like you did with the extermination of Greek minority there).

Did they apologise or something? As I stated before, Pontians were getting prepared for rebellion and there are even pictures of Pontian gangs:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2upbc47.jpg
http://img.blogcu.com/uploads/samsun03_somagiparixp0.jpg

Pontians were not angels and you exagerrate so-called massacre against them.



I lived in Thessaloniki for 4 years, and in Macedonia for 16 years.
My father lived in Thessaloniki for more than 35 years, my grandmother for more than 53 years, my grandfather for all his life (66 years, he died young). So, let me know better about where they are from
.
Many refugee places, either in Thessaloniki, or in Athens, they have names that the population have come from, with the ''New'' before.

Examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Moudania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleftherio-Kordelio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triglia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menemeni
Nea Maditos (from Gallipoli)
Nea Michaniona (from Pontus)
Nea Magnisia (Manisa)

Athens:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Filadelfeia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Erythraia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Chalkidona
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Smyrni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kesariani
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Ionia

According to your source wiki, there are 2.000.000 Pontian Greeks in Greece now. Almost %20 of Greece's population:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greeks

Just use logic, there were just slightly more than 1.000.000 Greeks in Turkey, before population exchange. Let's count how many of them were Pontians and how they reached to 2 millions of people today. So?


The fact that the got their punishments doesn't change the fact: You did it.

So, if you FIRST do what you do, it is YOU that you should stop whine about, don't ya thing?

Try to be at least a little bit consistent with what you say, for the God's sake:


Noone can blame today's Turks/Italians/Germans of the doings of the past. The problem is that YOU deny what you did,blame everyone but yourself, while they(Italians/Germans) don't.

As you can see, Pogroms are not denied by Turkish state. Double standards again. Of course when "whites" kill you, it is not a problem :rolleyes:

[Queen B]

Yes, Pontian rebellion dates back to start of 1900's. And there was not a systemical massacre, only potential rebels were executed.
No, whole villages were executed and males from military age were sent to labor battalions, also known as amele taburu


Who is your source? 19.th century's Philhellenist Imperialists?
The same source about Navarino and Tripolitsa.;)


Did they apologise or something? As I stated before, Pontians were getting prepared for rebellion and there are even pictures of Pontian gangs:

There is no German and Italian denying what happened.
This is enough.
If you could do the same, would be enough as well.


http://i44.tinypic.com/2upbc47.jpg
http://img.blogcu.com/uploads/samsun03_somagiparixp0.jpg

This photos show what exactly? People carrying guns. So I can post a picture of 100 zakynthians doing the same, are they rebelling or something?

Gimme a freaking break. There is no reason to massacre 350.000 people, because your claims about this gangs. Did this ''gangs'' did something? no.

And even if those mighty 20 rebels were indeed preperaring this super-duper rebellion, you killed 350.000 people. This is how you ''defend'' yourselves as you say?




According to your source wiki, there are 2.000.000 Pontian Greeks in Greece now. Almost %20 of Greece's population:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greeks

Just use logic, there were just slightly more than 1.000.000 Greeks in Turkey, before population exchange. Let's count how many of them were Pontians and how they reached to 2 millions of people today. So?

First of all, even this ("my") source says that the number is not sure because the intermixing of Pontians with the rest of Greeks.

Also, you can't compare the today's population, with the population of Greece 100 years ago. Neither Greece's population is the same with Greece's population back then.

Use numbers and reality:

The Greek population in Turkey (total) in 1910 was about 1.8 million (Ottoman census numbers)
Almost 1.1~1.2 million came here with the population exchange, and about 200.000 were left in Turkey.



As you can see, Pogroms are not denied by Turkish state. Double standards again. Of course when "whites" kill you, it is not a problem :rolleyes:
But Its not only the Pogrom. Pogrom is just ONE of the crimes.
Its like if I gave you 2 gunshots, one knife shot and 2 punches and said " sorry for punching you''

[ChildOfTheJin]

Turan Shah was brother of Saladin. By the way, even Ghaznid ruler Sabuktigin was a Shafi'i. So it doesn't prove anything.


Who is Sabuktigin? As much as I dislike Saladin, he is Kurdish. There are also many Kurds in Lebanon and Damascus because of Saladin. The lands there were owned by Kurds at those times all because of Saladin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVMJzlF4Z1c


http://smuhlberger.blogspot.co.uk/2006/09/legend-of-saladin.htm


Saladin, the Kurdish warlord who recovered Jerusalem for Islam in 1187 and provoked the Third Crusade (the one in all the movies), is really famous in our time as a great and admirable Muslim leader.

http://lepzerin.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/saladin-2/



Saladin is a peculiar figure in Kurdish nationalist dialogue. On the one hand, he is arguably the best known Kurdish person to the world, even if they are not aware he is Kurdish. On the other hand, he did not do anything to advance Kurdish nationalism, but rather a fighter for the Islamic world.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txh/saladin.htm


Born in Tikrît, Iraq, Saladin, as he is known in the West, was a Kurd; his Arabic name is Salah ad-Din Yusuf.

http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/saladin.htm


Nationality: A Kurd. Saladin came from Kurdistan which is now in present day northern Iraq

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Saladin.html


Saladin, a Kurdish warrior, became the Sultan of Egypt and known as a champion of Islam.

i-cias.com/e.o/saladin.htm


Saladin was of Kurdish heritage, and all through his career he used mainly Kurdish officials as his closest partners.

http://www.country-studies.com/syria/succeeding-caliphates-and-kingdoms.html


Saladin, a Kurd, unified Syria and Egypt, a necessary preliminary, and after many setbacks, captured Mosul, Aleppo, and the string of cities from Edessa to Nasihin.

http://answers.encyclopedia.com/question/saladin-91689.html


Saladin, who gained fame during the Crusades, is perhaps the most famous of all Kurds.

http://ikjnews.com/?p=2964


A Kurd born in Tikrit in modern northern Iraq, he rose from service as a mercenary commander to unite Egypt and Syria under his rule between 1169 and 1186.

dantesinferno.wikia.com/wiki/Saladin


Saladin is the Kurdish leader of the Islamic army that Dante and the crusaders fought against for King Richard I.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=760_1349211992&comments=1



On this day in 1187, Saladin, the Kurdish-born Sultan of Egypt and Syria, and leader of the Muslim forces battling the Crusaders in the Holy Land, captured the city of Jerusalem.

I am sure he was Kurdish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians



The Scythians (/ˈsɪθi.ən/ or /ˈsɪði.ən/; from Greek Σκύθης, Σκύθοι), or Scyths /ˈsɪθ/, were an Iranian nomadic people living in Scythia, the region encompassing the Pontic-Caspian steppe (in Eastern Europe) and parts of Central Asia throughout the Classical Antiquity.

I don't know much about the Scythians in Central Asia but there were quite a lot of Scythian during the time of the Medean empire who lived in and around the ancient Kurdish capital of Ecbatana (Hamadan) during the era of Emperor Cyaxares the great. Kurds most likely have some blood of those Scythians who lived there.

According to the book "Return of the Medes":


He allowed them to settle close to the city of Ecbatana. He went even further by hiring them as educators and trainers for their own children, and treated them well. The Scythians were thankful for his treatment and protection.

On page 40 http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xrMLKRbahoEC&pg=PA40&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

Kurds do not think they have even a drop of Scythian blood because of the crimes some of them committed against the Medes. They are seen as barbaric people in the eyes of the Kurds. But I am sure many Kurds (not all) have some Scythian ancestry, especially those who live around Hamadan.

[Incal]

Says a "mostly white" invader in Amerindian land.

Seems you can't decide yourself: First I was a white wannabe now I'm the evil white man who massacred natives lol really man, you are a fucking joke.

[Pecheneg]

Seems you can't decide yourself: First I was a white wannabe now I'm the evil white man who massacred natives lol really man, you are a fucking joke.

Partizan says "mostly white".
Look, a mostly white kid (3/4 white, 1/4 black), but still not a "white".
http://i49.tinypic.com/14j42o6.jpg


Since you are not a native Peruvian by blood, you can't blame someone for being "non-native/invader". Yea Turks were all evils, invaders while Spanish colonizers were voluntary angels from White Europe.






Kurds and Armenians hate Turks because they wanna be white, not because they massacred them and stole their lands.
And wtf is this bullshit? Stole their lands??? History is full of conquests, populations movements / migrations, wars etc...
Stolen lands hah? what about huge part of Russia?? USA? Spanish colonies etc? These are even much more recent events than Turkish conquest of anatolia (which was 1000 fucking years ago).
Besides anatolia has never been Kurdish homeland! Apparently you are not only biased but also ignorant as fuck. Turkish presence in anatolia is much more earlier than kurdish presence is. Kurds are of iranic/mesopotamian stock. Simply hypocrisy...nothing else.

[ChildOfTheJin]

^^^ Lol 1000 years ago is not a long time ago. Turks are still new to anatolia. The first known Kurdish presence in this area was the Halaf, over 6000 years ago ;)

Don't forget The Kurds are native to their land!

But if Anatolia was never our homeland, if your such a expert, where did the Kurds come from then? Mongolia? lol no, that is where your ancestors came from :)

[Anatolian Eagle]

Partizan says "mostly white".
Look, a mostly white kid (3/4 white, 1/4 black), but still not a "white".
http://i49.tinypic.com/14j42o6.jpg


Since you are not a native Peruvian by blood, you can't blame someone for being "non-native/invader". Yea Turks were all evils, invaders while Spanish colonizers were voluntary angels from White Europe.






And wtf is this bullshit? Stole their lands??? History is full of conquests, populations movements / migrations, wars etc...
Stolen lands hah? what about huge part of Russia?? USA? Spanish colonies etc? These are even much more recent events than Turkish conquest of anatolia (which was 1000 fucking years ago).
Besides anatolia has never been Kurdish homeland! Apparently you are not only biased but also ignorant as fuck. Turkish presence in anatolia is much more earlier than kurdish presence is. Kurds are of iranic/mesopotamian stock. Simply hypocrisy...nothing else.

You should've realized he's not worthy to answer when he compared some historical disputes to some "whiteness" complexion. He will not question Turkish presence in Anatolia was existent years before the first "American" ever stepped a foot on "America", but it's a very big issue a group of Turks conquered Anatolia centuries ago because the whole world was kissing each other from cheeks with warm hugs and flowers during that period of time except from Turks.

[Anatolian Eagle]

^^^ Lol 1000 years ago is not a long time ago. Turks are still new to anatolia. The first known Kurdish presence in this area was the Halaf, over 6000 years ago ;)

Don't forget The Kurds are native to their land!

But if Anatolia was never our homeland, if your such a expert, where did the Kurds come from then? Mongolia? lol no, that is where your ancestors came from :)

Except that you have nothing to do with Halafs, just like Halafs had nothing to do with Anatolia.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Except that you have nothing to do with Halafs nor their homeland was Anatolia.

Do some research about the Halafs Hurrians/Mitanni first.

You are right if you are talking about the traditional borders of Anatolia.

[Anatolian Eagle]

Do some research about the Halafs Hurrians/Mitanni first.

You are right if you are talking about the traditional borders of Anatolia.

Halafs were Mesopotamian. You aren't Hurrians either, since you identify Iranic.

You're saying we're "from Mongolia" because we identify Turkic while you don't see any problem with linking yourself to non-Iranic former inhabitants from Bronze Age simply because they used to live whever you live, but the same logic cannot apply to us?

[Pecheneg]

^^^ Lol 1000 years ago is not a long time ago.
Yes it is. Bulgarians, Hungarians, Russians, Croatians, Serbs, Usa Citizens, Canadians etc. were they natives too?? does it ring a bell for you? and your beloved kurds are not natives of anatolia, you are mesopotamian/iranian folk.



Turks are still new to anatolia. The first known Kurdish presence in this area was the Halaf, over 6000 years ago ;)
6000 years my ass. Do you think there was something called "kurd" in 5000 BC?????!!!! :picard2: Typical kurdish behavior. Claiming all the civilizations of region...

Anatolia was homeland of Hittites, Phrygians, Galatians, Lydians etc.




Don't forget The Kurds are native to their land!
Fuck logic... Once you were scythians, medes, parthians, on another day you were halaf, mitanni, sumerian, hurrian and shit, now you are natives of anatolia for 600000000000000000000000000000000000 years.




But if Anatolia was never our homeland, if your such a expert, where did the Kurds come from then?
You are mesopotamian-iranian hybrids and your ancestors were natives of mesopotamia and parts of iran.




Mongolia? lol no, that is where your ancestors came from :)
wait! this is supposed to be funny right? oh you funny kurd.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Halafs were Mesopotamian. You aren't Hurrians either, since you identify Iranic.

You're saying we're "from Mongolia" because we identify Turkic while you don't see any problem with linking yourself non-Iranic former inhabitants simply because they used to live whever you live, but the same logic cannot apply to us?

Medes mixed and absorbed the Hurrians. Mitannians (which are Hurrians) spoke a indo aryan language because of the Medes. I already have made a topic about ancestry of Kurds, check there because I'm on my phone and it will take a long time for me to prove this. I have all the proof on the other forum.

Hurrians are basically Halafians.

Iranic groups (such as the Medes) came from the steppe. Kurds have both native and non native blood however our culture is very much Hurrian (native)

I said Turks were from Mongolia because of what Pecheneg said. He claimed Turks have had a earlier presence in Anatolia than Kurds, which is true if he is talking about the tradition term but I don't think he was.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Yes it is. Bulgarians, Hungarians, Russians, Croatians, Serbs, Usa Citizens, Canadians etc. were they natives too?? does it ring a bell for you? and your beloved kurds are not natives of anatolia, you are mesopotamian/iranian folk.


6000 years my ass. Do you think there was something called "kurd" in 5000 BC?????!!!! :picard2: Typical kurdish behavior. Claiming all the civilizations of region...

Anatolia was homeland of Hittites, Phrygians, Galatians, Lydians etc.



Fuck logic... Once you were scythians, medes, parthians, on another day you were halaf, mitanni, sumerian, hurrian and shit, now you are natives of anatolia for 600000000000000000000000000000000000 years.



You are mesopotamian-iranian hybrids and your ancestors were natives of mesopotamia and parts of iran.



wait! this is supposed to be funny right? oh you funny kurd.

*sigh* :picard1:

[Anatolian Eagle]

Yes it is. Bulgarians, Hungarians, Russians, Croatians, Serbs, Usa Citizens, Canadians etc. were they natives too?? does it ring a bell for you? and your beloved kurds are not natives of anatolia, you are mesopotamian/iranian folk.


6000 years my ass. Do you think there was something called "kurd" in 5000 BC?????!!!! :picard2: Typical kurdish behavior. Claiming all the civilizations of region...

Anatolia was homeland of Hittites, Phrygians, Galatians, Lydians etc.



Fuck logic... Once you were scythians, medes, parthians, on another day you were halaf, mitanni, sumerian, hurrian and shit, now you are natives of anatolia for 600000000000000000000000000000000000 years.



You are mesopotamian-iranian hybrids and your ancestors were natives of mesopotamia and parts of iran.



wait! this is supposed to be funny right? oh you funny kurd.

The thing is he's dissing us as some "Turkic invaders from Mongolia" while he does not see any problem with claiming some random Mesopotamians from Bronze Age which had nothing to do with Iranic peoples (let alone Kurds :D) as part of "ancient Kurdish civilization" in Anatolia :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Mesopotamia_Per%C3%ADodo_6.PNG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Orientmitja2300aC.png

Very Anatolian indeed :D

[ChildOfTheJin]

^^ Go on the forum I created about the main ancestors of Kurds, I don't have time to repeat myself.

[ChildOfTheJin]

What you need to understand is that Kurds are very mixed people. ATM I'm on my phone so it's literally impossible for me to explain very well. But Tommorow you will see.

[Sophie]

Kurds in Turkey look more like other Anatolians to me, like Kurds from Iraq who look Iraqi.

They couldn't really pass in Iran.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Kurds in Turkey look more like other Anatolians to me, like Kurds from Iraq who look Iraqi.

They couldn't really pass in Iran.

Exactly, Kurds are a mixed people.

[Pecheneg]

The thing is he's dissing us as some "Turkic invaders from Mongolia" while he does not see any problem with claiming some random Mesopotamians from Bronze Age which had nothing to do with Iranic peoples (let alone Kurds :D) as part of "ancient Kurdish civilization" in Anatolia :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Mesopotamia_Per%C3%ADodo_6.PNG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Orientmitja2300aC.png

Very Anatolian indeed :D
You know what, we should do the exact same thing. Since we are partially Turkic and partially Native by blood, we should claim all the civilizations in region were related to us. Such as Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians, Trojans etc.

[Anatolian Eagle]

Medes mixed and absorbed the Hurrians. Mitannians (which are Hurrians) spoke a indo aryan language because of the Medes. I already have made a topic about ancestry of Kurds, check there because I'm on my phone and it will take a long time for me to prove this. I have all the proof on the other forum.

Hurrians are basically Halafians.

Iranic groups (such as the Medes) came from the steppe. Kurds have both native and non native blood however our culture is very much Hurrian (native)

I said Turks were from Mongolia because of what Pecheneg said. He claimed Turks have had a earlier presence in Anatolia than Kurds, which is true if he is talking about the tradition term but I don't think he was.

Following your words this proves you aren't any "ancient" than us since Turks are genetically native to Anatolia. And I doubt you have "Hurrian culture" at all, lol.

[ChildOfTheJin]

You know what, we should do the exact same thing. Since we are partially Turkic and partially Native by blood, we should claim all the civilizations in region were related to us. Such as Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians, Trojans etc.

Some of them are... :picard1:

Ever heard of turkification?

[Sophie]

People should stop connecting languages to ethnic groups.

An Azeri in Iran has way more in common with a Persian and a Kurd in Turkey has much more in common with a Turk.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Following your words this proves you aren't any "ancient" than us since Turks are genetically native to Anatolia. And I doubt you have "Hurrian culture" at all, lol.

Like I said, if you are talking about the traditional term of Anatolia, you are right. If not, you are wrong.

Ok smart guy, who are the ancestors of the Kurds and where did they come from?

[Pecheneg]

Kurds in Turkey look more like other Anatolians to me, like Kurds from Iraq who look Iraqi.

They couldn't really pass in Iran.

Kurds are racially much more closer to Iranians. Even genetic studies confirm this.

[ChildOfTheJin]

People should stop connecting languages to ethnic groups.

An Azeri in Iran has way more in common with a Persian and a Kurd in Turkey has much more in common with Anatolian.

You are right but Sometimes languages are useful, but with "Turkic" groups, such as Azeris, it's not.

[Sophie]

Kurds are racially much more closer to Iranians. Even genetic studies confirm this.

Are you reading anything? :rolleyes:

[Pecheneg]

Some of them are... :picard1:

Ever heard of turkification?

ohh...when it comes to us, it's Turkification. :rolleyes: But kurds are all pure descendants of scythians, parthians, medes, hurrians, mitanni, sumerians, halaf, etc. at once...

[Incal]

Yea Turks were all evils, invaders while Spanish colonizers were voluntary angels from White Europe.

And who said that excuse me?




Stolen lands hah? what about huge part of Russia?? USA? Spanish colonies etc? These are even much more recent events than Turkish conquest of anatolia (which was 1000 fucking years ago).


There are not spanish colonies anymore.

[Pecheneg]

Are you reading anything? :rolleyes:

This is not true;

Kurds in Turkey look more like other Anatolians to me, like Kurds from Iraq who look Iraqi.


Kurds are racially closer to you, get over it.

[ChildOfTheJin]

ohh...when it comes to us, it's Turkification. :rolleyes: But kurds are all pure descendants of scythians, parthians, medes, hurrians, mitanni, sumerians, halaf, etc. at once...

Lmao when did I ever say that?? :lol00002:

[Sophie]

This is not true;

Kurds are racially closer to you, get over it.

Yeah the Iranian ones.

[Partizan]

No, whole villages were executed and males from military age were sent to labor battalions, also known as amele taburu

Whole villages? Too much science fiction. About amele taburu, you recently done similar to Cham Albanians in end of WW2. Now you are going to say that they collaborated with Nazis and I won't deny that. But Pontians were not that innocent, they were always seeking chance to backstabbing us.


The same source about Navarino and Tripolitsa.;)

Nice try but about Navarin and Tripoliçe I didn't even show wiki as source. I quoted historians and Kollokotronis(who had Turkish blood in his hands). So?


There is no German and Italian denying what happened.
This is enough.
If you could do the same, would be enough as well.

The problem is, if even some insignificiant deaths occured, those was just for defending ourselves. So, it is just self-defence. However Italians and Germans INVADED your country and made your people starve. I don't even count that Turks sent the first help :)


This photos show what exactly? People carrying guns. So I can post a picture of 100 zakynthians doing the same, are they rebelling or something?

Gimme a freaking break. There is no reason to massacre 350.000 people, because your claims about this gangs. Did this ''gangs'' did something? no.

And even if those mighty 20 rebels were indeed preperaring this super-duper rebellion, you killed 350.000 people. This is how you ''defend'' yourselves as you say?

Another photo, the guns captured from Pontian Greek gangs:
http://turksolu.org/217/foto/katliam-4.jpg

It is well known, after treaty of Mudros, Pontian gangs started to slaughter Turkish civilians. According to telegram which was sent to 9.th Army corp to Ottoman Department of Chief of Staff, a Greek colonel called "Istalyanos" came with 5 officers to Trabzon to train Pontian gangs there. Also Admiral Bristol writes in his report that, Venizelos even appointed one Greek colonel called Katheniotis for organising Pontian gangs. Bristol also wrote about Greek-Armenian collaboration in Kars, against Turks. I wish this article was fully in English, it has nice sources(like Stephanos Yerasimos, Justin McCarthy, Admiral Mark Bristol, Edward Hallet Carr, Bilal Şimşir and British Military Archives).

http://www.ardahan.edu.tr/karadeniz/web/upload/icerik/12/12.1..pdf




But Its not only the Pogrom. Pogrom is just ONE of the crimes.
Its like if I gave you 2 gunshots, one knife shot and 2 punches and said " sorry for punching you''

So, I suggest that. Let's leave it to historians and let both Turkey&Greece to open their archives about that. We suggested the same to Armenia but they refused to even open their own archives :lol:


Who is Sabuktigin? As much as I dislike Saladin, he is Kurdish. There are also many Kurds in Lebanon and Damascus because of Saladin. The lands there were owned by Kurds at those times all because of Saladin.

Sabuktigin is the first ruler of Ghaznids. Well, those Kurds could be just recently migrated(in 1950's many Kurds and Arabs from Mardin migrated to Lebanon and in 1800's many Kurds migrated to Syria from neighboring regions) since we know even Moroccans claim Ottoman heritage, perhaps those Kurds have fake stories for making themselves close to Saladin.


I am sure he was Kurdish.

Are you sure about that, you are "Kurdish"? I mean as a nation. I don't think so, for example in Ottoman times the words like "Kurd" and "Ekrad" were just used for defining nomadic people in Eastern Anatolia and Mesopotamia rather than defining a people. For example Evliya Çelebi talks about "Kurdistan" in his Seyahatname but the "Kurdish poetry" he quotes is just some Arabic and Azerbaijani Turkish poems. However like Albanians and Vlaches of modern Greece became Greeks after first quarter of 1800's because of imperialist backed Philohellenism, you a bunch of Persian, Arabic, Turkic ,Armenian etc. nomads started to call yourselves Kurdish(as a sense of nation) after 1800's. Especially Russia and Britain supported this "nation imitate" stuff with their agent-historians(Minorsky is a good example).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians



I don't know much about the Scythians in Central Asia but there were quite a lot of Scythian during the time of the Medean empire who lived in and around the ancient Kurdish capital of Ecbatana (Hamadan) during the era of Emperor Cyaxares the great. Kurds most likely have some blood of those Scythians who lived there.

According to the book "Return of the Medes":

.

On page 40 http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xrMLKRbahoEC&pg=PA40&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

Kurds do not think they have even a drop of Scythian blood because of the crimes some of them committed against the Medes. They are seen as barbaric people in the eyes of the Kurds. But I am sure many Kurds (not all) have some Scythian ancestry, especially those who live around Hamadan.

I'm not discussing about WHO has Scythian blood, I'm just discussing that, WHAT was the core population of Scythians?


Seems you can't decide yourself: First I was a white wannabe now I'm the evil white man who massacred natives lol really man, you are a fucking joke.

Well, you are "mostly white". I didn't say that you're fully caucasoid. As far as I know you're only 1/8 native and you call Turks as invaders. Then what you are? If you see me as an invader, go back either to Spain or to Africa. You aren't Inca enough to stay in Peru!

[Incal]

Well, you are "mostly white". I didn't say that you're fully caucasoid. As far as I know you're only 1/8 native and you call Turks as invaders. Then what you are? If you see me as an invader, go back either to Spain or to Africa. You aren't Inca enough to stay in Peru!

*yawn*

All my ultra maritime ancestors came during the times of the republic, that is, they came with permits and stuff, nobody broke any rule or invade any country. In any case, I'd gladly go live to Africa if that meant all the Turks living in Germany, Austria, etc returned to super power, first world superior, number 1 Turkey.

[Partizan]

*yawn*

All my ultra maritime ancestors came during the times of the republic, that is, they came with permits and stuff, nobody broke any rule or invade any country. In any case, I'd gladly go live to Africa if that meant all the Turks living in Germany, Austria, etc returned to super power, first world superior, number 1 Turkey.


1.Germans wanted and accepted Turks.
2.I was not talking about Germany, I was talking about Turkey/Anatolia. You called Turks as invaders here and said it is the reason of why Armenians, Kurds and Greeks hate Turks. If Turks are non-native invaders in Anatolia, than what you are in Ancient Amerind land?

[ChildOfTheJin]

One of you asked me when the term "Kurd" first appeared;

The first proper mention of the term "Kurd" was during the Sassanid period (AD 224–AD 651). During this period we'll see two prominent groups of "Kurds" described in historical texts.

Let's take a look:

The Kârnâmag î Ardashîr î Babagân
('Book of the Deeds of Ardashir, son of Babag')



A Letter to Ardashir I, from his enemy, Ardavan V


Now, the general consensus is that during these times "Kurd" was solely used as a social term for nomads and shepherds of Iranic origin. Though, I have a few remarks to make:
-Madig and his troops, centered around Kermanshah, don't seem to have been nomads nor shepherds; they appeared to have been sedentary and to be warriors.
-In Ardavan V's wordings one can clearly see the social background of the term, but interestingly, the tribe of which Ardashir I descended (Shabankareh) seems to have survived until today, in the form of a Kurdish tribe near Kermanshah. Indeed, a tribe by the name of Shabankara is based there.

Earlier forms

However, similar terms have been attested throughout the millenia in Mesopotomia. Indeed, "Kur", "Guti", "Carduchi", "Cyrtii" all denoted peoples inhabiting the Zagros mountains. Some of these were thought to simply denote all barbarian tribes in mountain territory North of Mesopotamia, regardless of ethnicity.

Thoughts of F. Hennerbichler:


Is it possible that this ancient term was simply copied by the Persians and Arabs to denote a people with similar customs and zone of inhabitation? You be the judge, but it seems likely to me.

And here is the letter:


You've bitten off more than you can chew and you have brought death to yourself.
0 son of a Kurd, raised in the tents of the Kurds, who gave you permission to put a crown on your head?7

[ChildOfTheJin]

Sabuktigin is the first ruler of Ghaznids. Well, those Kurds could be just recently migrated(in 1950's many Kurds and Arabs from Mardin migrated to Lebanon and in 1800's many Kurds migrated to Syria from neighboring regions) since we know even Moroccans claim Ottoman heritage, perhaps those Kurds have fake stories for making themselves close to Saladin.

The Kurds have lived in Lebanon since the time of the Ayyubids:

http://staff.aub.edu.lb/~lmeho/meho-kawtharani-kurdish-community-in-lebanon.pdf

[QUOTE]Earlier presence of the Kurds in Lebanon dates back to te arrival of Ayyubids in the 12th century.

But many more Kurds came during the 19th and 20th century.



Are you sure about that, you are "Kurdish"? I mean as a nation. I don't think so, for example in Ottoman times the words like "Kurd" and "Ekrad" were just used for defining nomadic people in Eastern Anatolia and Mesopotamia rather than defining a people. For example Evliya Çelebi talks about "Kurdistan" in his Seyahatname but the "Kurdish poetry" he quotes is just some Arabic and Azerbaijani Turkish poems. However like Albanians and Vlaches of modern Greece became Greeks after first quarter of 1800's because of imperialist backed Philohellenism, you a bunch of Persian, Arabic, Turkic ,Armenian etc. nomads started to call yourselves Kurdish(as a sense of nation) after 1800's. Especially Russia and Britain supported this "nation imitate" stuff with their agent-historians(Minorsky is a good example).




This is not at all true. Where did you get this from? (A source) In my previous post you will see the origin of the term "Kurd" and that they were warriors, not nomads. I believe that Kurds were just a bunch of mixed tribes, that were all related to each other.

Azerbaijanis claim the most famous Kurdish poet as there own, Sheref Khan Bitlisi, he wrote his poems and texts in Kurdish, which is a north western Iranian language, different to those of the Persians, Armenians, Turks and Arabs.

Some Kurd have picked up semetic, Turkic and Armenian elements though. Majority of The Kurds are related to Armenians and Persians, there is only a minority who have Turkic and semetic element, but they still look kurdish.

[Jerreiche]

Dutch thought same way when we kept you busy at the time.

http://www.themuslimtimes.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/thumb-geuzenpenning-300x173.jpg


The wars in Flanders were fought in order to keep control of the Netherlands for greater glory and enrichment of the reigning Habsburgh in Germanic Europe.

The Habsburg essentially wasted most of the tax money brought from the Americas in trying to keep their dominion over their motherland (Charles the Ist of spain (the Vth of Germany) was Flemish. And before he took control of Spain and started repopulating the newly southern territories of the peninsula with flemish countrymen and other germans, he needed to fight a civil war against the Castilian noblemen.

The Habsburg essentially destroyed Castile as a nation in order to make of Madrid the epicenter of their colonial empire.

The war against the Turks , however, was not fought by the Spaniards alone, we only protected the Western and Southern sores of the mediterranean along with the Holy League. If there was a war that was worth to be fought was the war against the Turks.

I don't think any Spaniard of the time would ever be happy to be sent to Flanders to fight a war Spanish people did not care about, nor would it bring any benefits to anyone.

Spain was (and still is) ruled by foreigners and traitors.

The wars agains the turks however, produced hundreds of thousands of volunteers from all over the continent .

And yeah, Turks were severly butthurt by the Spaniards, specially in Lepanto (and all Europe applauded).

They might be historic-fiction, and they might be written by a guy that most of the time is an uptight arsehole...but recommend you to have a read at the Captain Alatriste saga for a more entertaining insight of those troubled times.

[Incal]

1.Germans wanted and accepted Turks.

You are hopeless lol.




2.I was not talking about Germany, I was talking about Turkey/Anatolia. You called Turks as invaders here and said it is the reason of why Armenians, Kurds and Greeks hate Turks. If Turks are non-native invaders in Anatolia, than what you are in Ancient Amerind land?

OK genius, tell me about some place in the Americas still under Spanish control/yoke/administration. Ironically, the only remaining one is Puerto Rico (under US control).

[Partizan]

One of you asked me when the term "Kurd" first appeared;

The first proper mention of the term "Kurd" was during the Sassanid period (AD 224–AD 651). During this period we'll see two prominent groups of "Kurds" described in historical texts.

Let's take a look:

The Kârnâmag î Ardashîr î Babagân
('Book of the Deeds of Ardashir, son of Babag')



A Letter to Ardashir I, from his enemy, Ardavan V


Now, the general consensus is that during these times "Kurd" was solely used as a social term for nomads and shepherds of Iranic origin. Though, I have a few remarks to make:
-Madig and his troops, centered around Kermanshah, don't seem to have been nomads nor shepherds; they appeared to have been sedentary and to be warriors.
-In Ardavan V's wordings one can clearly see the social background of the term, but interestingly, the tribe of which Ardashir I descended (Shabankareh) seems to have survived until today, in the form of a Kurdish tribe near Kermanshah. Indeed, a tribe by the name of Shabankara is based there.

Earlier forms

However, similar terms have been attested throughout the millenia in Mesopotomia. Indeed, "Kur", "Guti", "Carduchi", "Cyrtii" all denoted peoples inhabiting the Zagros mountains. Some of these were thought to simply denote all barbarian tribes in mountain territory North of Mesopotamia, regardless of ethnicity.

Thoughts of F. Hennerbichler:


Is it possible that this ancient term was simply copied by the Persians and Arabs to denote a people with similar customs and zone of inhabitation? You be the judge, but it seems likely to me.

And here is the letter:

About "Ekrad", I can't cite source since I gave the book(Türk Yurdu Anadolu/Anatolia the Turkish Land) to a friend. As I remember, in Ottoman sources, "Ekrad" was used for "nomad" or "shepherd", not as an ethnic unity. For example you can find "Ekrad-ı Yörükan" or "Ekrad-ı Türkmen" in Ottoman archives. Of course it doesn't mean "Yörük Kurds" or "Kurdish Turkmens" as you can understand.

About history of Kurds, as I know Minorsky stated Medes as ancestor of Kurds first. Later Bruinessen disproved it and than Minorsky claimed that Urartus were ancestors of Kurds. Later researchers like Nöldeke, M. Hartmann and Wisbach disproved this theory too. Said Nursi(or rather Said Kurdi) the Kurdo-Islamic nationalist, called Kurds as "Sons of Chaldeans" in his speech in Beyazıt square. Also as I know, another Kurdish nationalist, İhsan Nuri stated that "Armenians are Christian Kurds".

From Izady's book, The Kurds: A Concise Handbook:


"Thus, in the era when Arab expansion started, the term "Kurd" was an umbrella term for Iranic or Iranicised tribes...

And the same man, same book:


"In XX.th century, a non-Kurd Iranian tribe(Zaza-Goran) appeared".


Also as I know, Izady never chooses a core population for Kurds but tries to claim all of ancient Middle Eastern tribes' ancestry at the same time. He also claimed that, it was the Kurds who domesticated sheep and dogs first :bored:

It seems Kurds aren't a nation but just someone tries to create a new nation with umbrella terms.




The Kurds have lived in Lebanon since the time of the Ayyubids:

http://staff.aub.edu.lb/~lmeho/meho-kawtharani-kurdish-community-in-lebanon.pdf



But many more Kurds came during the 19th and 20th century.


http://www.archive.org/stream/chronicleofkings00dods#page/32/mode/2up

In this book, which was written in 1821, it writes "Saladin the Turk" in annotations. As I know the hoax about Saladin being Kurdish spreaded after 20.th century.


This is not at all true. Where did you get this from? (A source) In my previous post you will see the origin of the term "Kurd" and that they were warriors, not nomads. I believe that Kurds were just a bunch of mixed tribes, that were all related to each other.


Despite I don't have sources under my hand at the moment, I can show you this book:
http://www.google.com.tr/books?hl=tr&lr=&id=izQFFkIF6mMC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=izady+kurds+neanderthals&ots=KnukGIUSZS&sig=Jj7eVNzohb-jhvprJJu5E--VwVo&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Neanderthal&f=false

It is written by a Kurdish historian, Lokman I. Meho. Well, it seems Kurdicists can't really find a real ancestors for themselves, as you can see this guy even tries to link Kurds and Neanderthals. As I know Izady also saw "Shenidar cave" as one pre-historical Kurdish site and dated Kurdish history back to 50.000 years ago in one of his books. As you know, in that era, even homo sapiens wasn't existant...


Azerbaijanis claim the most famous Kurdish poet as there own, Sheref Khan Bitlisi, he wrote his poems and texts in Kurdish, which is a north western Iranian language, different to those of the Persians, Armenians, Turks and Arabs.


We don't know where is original Sherefname, as I know only source we have is Charmoy's translation. So we can't be sure about which language it was in.



You are hopeless lol.


Disprove what I said or shut your triracial mouth up.


OK genius, tell me about some place in the Americas still under Spanish control/yoke/administration. Ironically, the only remaining one is Puerto Rico (under US control).

:picard1::picard1::picard1:

Well, according to your logic, Anatolia is under Turkmen or Kazakh yoke. What I mean, despite now there are several countries in Latin America, most of them are mixed raced because of some horny conquisators and even Bolivia, where has Amerindian majority, was under criollo political domination until comrade Morales. If Turks are not native to Anatolia, I don't think someone who is of Spaniard/German/African descent and who is occupying Amerindian land Peru at the moment has right to whin about that.

[Onur]

Greece`s love affair with PKK continues...

This time it`s about a book of the current leader of the PKK terrorist organization, named Murat Karayilan. A Greek general translates the book to Greek language to publish it in Greece. It`s OK so far but the problem starts when Greek government organizes a promotion for selling the book in a museum belongs to the Greek defense ministry.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/2412/18502412.jpg


Ankara disappointed at PKK publication in Greek museum
Turkey has voiced its disappointment after a publication from senior Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) figure Murat Karayılan was promoted in Athens on Nov. 28 and displayed at the Greek Defense Ministry’s War Museum.

In a statement released by the Turkish Foreign Ministry on Nov. 30, Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu personally conveyed his unease over the incident during a telephone conversation with his Greek counterpart, Dimitris Avramopoulos, on Nov. 29.

The incident “has formed an extremely unfortunate development in regards to cooperation in the field of fighting terrorism,” the ministry said.

“This incident is also worrying as it showed that some circles who are annoyed with the improvement of the Turkish-Greek friendship are still active,” it said, warning that giving the outlawed PKK opportunities to promote “terrorism propaganda” was not in line with international agreements, as the PKK is recognized as a terrorist organization by both the European Union and NATO.

The Greek Foreign Affairs Ministry released a statement Nov. 29 condemning the presentation of a book written by Murat Karayılan, a leader of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), at the venue hosting the Defense Ministry's War Museum.

An advertisement promo of the book entitled, “The Anatomy of a War,” was placed in the War Museum of the Greek Ministry of Defense following its release in Greek.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/greek-foreign-affairs-ministry-condemns-museums-pkk-book-promotion.aspx?pageID=238&nID=35811&NewsCatID=351


The fcking stupid Davutoglu still talks about "cooperation against terrorism" with his Greek counterpart. Turkey urgently needs to stop acting soft against Greece and start to follow eye for an eye policy. I have no idea why Turkey still doesn't fund and be a sponsor of the Cham Albanian investigations and revival of Macedonian slavic language in Greece. Even this wouldn't be enough for a proper response because Albanians doesn't use methods of terror against Greece while they blatantly promote a book of the PKK leader with state funds while this guy is wanted by the Interpol and leading an internationally recognized terror group.

A proper answer would be creating a terror group in western Thrace for a Turkish autonomy but we are not that lowlifes as Greeks. These kind of methods would be a shame for us.

[Queen B]

Whole villages? Too much science fiction. About amele taburu, you recently done similar to Cham Albanians in end of WW2. Now you are going to say that they collaborated with Nazis and I won't deny that. But Pontians were not that innocent, they were always seeking chance to backstabbing us.

You are comparing apples with eggs here.
First of all, we exiled Cham Albanians and we exiled them because of treason.
There was a punishment to something that they did.
Amele Taburu happened with no reason, without something provoking and earlier than the start of war between Greece and Turkey.
''Seeking a chance'', with actual collaboration with Nazi, and RECORDED commited crimes, are two different thinks.

Its different to say that ''Hey, I punched you because you killed my brother'' of ''hey, I punched you because you were thinking to punch me''.



Nice try but about Navarin and Tripoliçe I didn't even show wiki as source. I quoted historians and Kollokotronis(who had Turkish blood in his hands). So?

Records exist to show you, even though u can just search them. Even De Lacroix painted the Chios Massacre, I guess he was paid by Greeks for propaganda? :D



The problem is, if even some insignificiant deaths occured, those was just for defending ourselves. So, it is just self-defence.
No. Killing systimatecally Pontians since 1914 wasn't to defend yourselves.


However Italians and Germans INVADED your country and made your people starve.
I am pretty aware of that, so are Italians and Germans.


Another photo, the guns captured from Pontian Greek gangs:
http://turksolu.org/217/foto/katliam-4.jpg

This is a proof ? Of what?
When is this photo taken? Is it before 1914 and the slaughtering against Pontians? Are they surely pontians?


It is well known, after treaty of Mudros,.....
Mudros? 1918? 4 years later... Yeap :bored:


So, I suggest that. Let's leave it to historians and let both Turkey&Greece to open their archives about that. We suggested the same to Armenia but they refused to even open their own archives :lol:
Historians of the world have already had their said on that.Our archives are always open anyway. ;)
For the armenian case, I am not the one to talk.

[Absinthe]

Okay, Onur, let us hold back there for a second and assume that Greeks do indeed collectively love the Kurds...

(*in reality the majority of Greeks wouldn't even know a Kurd if he hit them in the face at the speed of 250km/hr while his mustache is on fire, but that's besides the point)

What exactly is the significance of this thread? Who (except you) cares about whether Greeks love Kurds or they don't? Who cares about the Kurds anyway? :icon_ask:

It's like me opening a thread about the favorable treatment that Newfies get in Antarctica....if you know what I mean.

I think you're just trying to stir some drama here, create some tension, vent some anger....would you like some cheese with that whine, tatlım? :nicetongue Your thesis supervisor won't be so happy with how you choose to delegate your time as of late, arkadasım canımcım :wink

[Partizan]

You are comparing apples with eggs here.
First of all, we exiled Cham Albanians and we exiled them because of treason.
There was a punishment to something that they did.
Amele Taburu happened with no reason, without something provoking and earlier than the start of war between Greece and Turkey.
''Seeking a chance'', with actual collaboration with Nazi, and RECORDED commited crimes, are two different thinks.

Nope, it happened just before World War I. Also in many Ottoman Pashas' memoirs, it is well explained how Pontians created gangs before 1914. Especially in Nureddin Pasha's:

https://hotfile.com/dl/182071536/2e62e89/1096-4320-1-PB.pdf.html

It is a PDF file from a Turkish professor. As you can see, in third page, C.A.C. Repington(British Colonel and War Correspondent) had been shown as a witness. This article exactly proves that, Pontian separatism had organised since 1904.



Records exist to show you, even though u can just search them. Even De Lacroix painted the Chios Massacre, I guess he was paid by Greeks for propaganda? :D


Since France was one of states who burnt Turkish navy in Navarin and sided with Greece, of course it's artists worked for justifying the state's acts.


No. Killing systimatecally Pontians since 1914 wasn't to defend yourselves.

1.It was not systemically killing. It was just similar to German American Internment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment), however I don't see any Germans who wants the US to apologize.


I am pretty aware of that, so are Italians and Germans.


So go and badger them. Ask German and Italian states for compensation and formal apology. I know, most of Greek and Armenian communities demand similar things from state of Turkey.


This is a proof ? Of what?
When is this photo taken? Is it before 1914 and the slaughtering against Pontians? Are they surely pontians?


This propaganda card which was distributed among Pontians(yes, before 1914) explain everything IMO.


Mudros? 1918? 4 years later... Yeap :bored:

Since you also blame Atatürk for so-called Pontian Genocide, I just wanted to imply that, during our independence war Pontians weren't being good against us also.


Historians of the world have already had their said on that.Our archives are always open anyway. ;)

So, ours too. I do not know why, none of Greek presidents offered research on Turkish archives for proving "Greek Genocide" :rolleyes:

[Queen B]

Nope, it happened just before World War I. Also in many Ottoman Pashas' memoirs, it is well explained how Pontians created gangs before 1914. Especially in Nureddin Pasha's.....

I can't download, but is there any proof that Pontians killed or did anything to justify Amele Taburu and the extermination of 350.000 people?
A couple of photos that you posted from before, and that the were thinking of backstabbing them, or were against Turks , without acts, doesn't justify a mass killing.


Since France was one of states who burnt Turkish navy in Navarin and sided with Greece, of course it's artists worked for justifying the state's acts.

:picard2:


1.It was not systemically killing. It was just similar to German American Internment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment), however I don't see any Germans who wants the US to apologize.
''during World War I and World War II.''.
The systematic killing of Pontians happened before any war. Not during.


So go and badger them. Ask German and Italian states for compensation and formal apology. I know, most of Greek and Armenian communities demand similar things from state of Turkey.
Both actions have taken place already :bored:


This propaganda card which was distributed among Pontians(yes, before 1914) explain everything IMO.

Huh? The proof. When is that, and how is prooved.


Since you also blame Atatürk for so-called Pontian Genocide, I just wanted to imply that, during our independence war Pontians weren't being good against us also.
Your independence war? When ?


So, ours too. I do not know why, none of Greek presidents offered research on Turkish archives for proving "Greek Genocide" :rolleyes:
There are historians out there, have done the job already :thumb001:

[Graus]

1.Germans wanted and accepted Turks.


We didnt get what we asked for: We wanted cheap labour; the workers should have stayed for a year and then return home with the money they earned, which would have been a win/win situation.
And we all know thats not exactly how it turned out, to put it nicely.

[Onur]

Okay, Onur, let us hold back there for a second and assume that Greeks do indeed collectively love the Kurds...

(*in reality the majority of Greeks wouldn't even know a Kurd if he hit them in the face at the speed of 250km/hr while his mustache is on fire, but that's besides the point)

What exactly is the significance of this thread? Who (except you) cares about whether Greeks love Kurds or they don't? Who cares about the Kurds anyway? :icon_ask:
Absinth, i always talk about the Greek political elite and their actions but you always think like i am talking about ordinary Greeks like you.

There is an axis of evil in Greece since it`s foundation. This axis has 3 pillars as political elite, clergy and military elite. These 3 are always in full cooperation for everything anti-Turkish, this includes supporting terror in Turkey just like we saw when Greek church was collected donations for PKK militants, Greek politicians provided visas, passports and asylums to them and military personnel trained them for bombing and assassination activities. As we saw again, your retired generals even continues to support PKK by translating PKK leader`s new book to Greek language, publish it and promote it in defense ministry museum.


Ofc i know that the majority of Greeks doesn't care about Kurds but this doesn't mean that i should go blind to the activities of the axis of evil in your country. Maybe i can be mad to the ordinary Greeks for a single reason. Some of them are quite aware of what their church, politicians and military does but they let go of it. They simply don't care and approve their anti-Turkish actions. Ofc i am excluding your fascists, because they are already inline with the axis of evil.

[Anusiya]

Axis of evil. :picard1:

Ottomans carried out one of the most abhorrent "Holocausts" against non-homogenized populations the world saw before WW2, how can you deny that? Does it matter if they were Laz, Pontic-Greeks, Ionians, Rumi, Armenians or anything else? They were people who simply didn't fit the bill.

The disgusting example the neo-Turkish state set was an example to be avoided by later cases, as seen in the establishment of Israel in 1948. Everyone wanted to avoid seeing people being drowned in the sea once more.

Your "state's" birth is an example to be avoided, nothing more nothing less.

[Papastratosels26]

Fake news

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