Choosing gun

[Sol Invictus]

Hey gun owners, I need some help on deciding what to get as my pistol.

I already placed an order for the Walther p99 with a few accessories, but I am not exactly sure. I had it in mind to buy a semi automatic handgun for work, but after thinking about it for a while, I factored in the Baretta Cx4 Storm, which I can't actually use for work, but I really, really like the looks of it and the comfort of shooting it, which is really handy because my hands aren't always the steadiest and I can shoot some really tight groupings with it. I figured it would be good to have around for maybe a home defense weapon, and to just go out and do some plinking.

Then I took a look at the Heckler and Koch P30 and remembered shooting it while we were at the College range in Aylmer, and noticed it was a popular model amongst law enforcement personnel. And it's really, really lovely looking.

http://i30.tinypic.com/2zqcwgx.jpg

The HK P30, as you can see, is a real treat to look at. It's 740 grams heavy and 177mm in length. It fires the 9mm Parabellum. And is a favorite amongst Law Enforcement, and is manufactured in Germany.

http://i27.tinypic.com/2gshd7s.jpg

The Walther P99 is lighter than the P30 by about 100 grams, however, slightly longer. It's available in both the hard hitting .40 S&W, as well as the 9mm Parabellum, and is a favorite amongst German Police. This is what I currently have on order.

http://i31.tinypic.com/1eoxau.jpg

The Italian-made Baretta Cx4 has such a beautiful, futuristic look and feel to it. It's like space-age design at 755 mm in length and weighs just over 5 lbs. Available in 9mm parabellum, .40 S&W, and .45 APC. Available accessories include the bi-pod, and rail mounts for a red dot scope.

Q1BgI7ZlpzM

[Germanicus]

The Taurus PT-909/911 series.
Made in Brazil
costs $650
manual download PDF
9MM
10-15 ROUNDS
SA
4" barrel
WEIGHT 28.2 OUNCES
steel frame.
http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n449/ruffusruffcut/20266-1.jpg
Nice looking gun, smallish design, 9mm more than capable as a man stopper, cheap to buy, you could do worse.

[Ulf]

HK is fine if you're into them, not too reliable if dirty. Can never really go wrong with a Walther. Personally, I don't like Berrettas, probably because I have limited experience with them. Nothing about them really ever stuck out about them being awesome. Cx4 Storm shoots only pistol caliber so why not just get a pistol? I don't know what self-defense laws are like in Canada but here I think a big factor in a self-defense case is the attacker's distance. Not much justification in picking the guy off from a distance.

Get a nice .45 for personal carry. I was eyeing up a Glock 36 or a Para LDA Carry Safe (http://www.paraord.com/pages/carry.html).

Home defense weapon though, go with a shotgun (Mossberg ;)). Use 4 shot.

[Germanicus]

http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n449/ruffusruffcut/cartridgecomparison.jpg

If i lived in your neck of the woods and i was into the outdoor pursuits, like fishing in streams and the like, my gun of choice would have to be the Ruger redhawk in .455 casull, it would stop a bear.

[Rudy]

I guessed the HK.

My favorites are Saigas and Glock 9mms with 33 round magazines. Some people get a Mech Tech carbine upper for the Glock.

[Frigga]

I only have experince with Smith and Wesson, Taurus, Ruger, and Karr. All four of these are good. S&W are expensive, and so is Ruger. Taurus and Karr are cheaper, but are still very good. One thing to remember about the Karr. It has to be broken in when you first get it. About 200 rounds should do it. It will jam in the break in rounds, but after it's broken in, it should perform very well.

[Manifest Destiny]

H&K all the way. I have a USP 9mm and it's the best semi-auto pistol I've ever shot.

[_Ted_]

Might want to investigate buying a Glock.

Moderately priced, reliable firearms that pack a punch.

Chuck Taylor, the author of the 'Book of Combat Handgunnery' recommends a Glock, since you can fire 125,000 rounds of ammo through them, without them screwing up. I'd recommend them because of their track record.

Alas, it's your choice. Choose well.

[Cato]

I'm pricing/looking at 12-gauge shotguns. I live in New York state, where no permit is needed to own a rifle/shotgun. It's the pistols that you've got to jump through a few hoops to get..

[Germanicus]

I'm pricing/looking at 12-gauge shotguns. I live in New York state, where no permit is needed to own a rifle/shotgun. It's the pistols that you've got to jump through a few hoops to get..

Shotguns are my favorite weapon of choice, I've owned many of them over the years, way back when i was a CPSA shooter we shot 1oz 7/8th cartridges, my favorite cartridge was Bianchi no8s, it was easy on the shoulder always consistant, and when you cleaned the barrels out later you would hardly get any residue.
Sporting, and English skeet were my favorite disciplines.
My alltime favorite shotgun is a Winchester super grade skeet, i remember paying £369 for it in 1979.
http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n449/ruffusruffcut/1251667_win101supgrd12_01m.jpg
This is a 101 supergrade it's of the same quality as my old one.

[Sol Invictus]

One thing I like about the P30 is that the rear sight doesn't stick up as high as the P99, the profile makes it shorter, and it doesn't have the boxy look to it that the Walther has. It's alot smoother and elegant looking and I just love the look of it. I don't have much of an issue with the 9mm para and I like to squeeze off a clip fairly rapidly down range without having the added kick (like my revolver, ow!) and the lower capacity clips of some of the heavier rounds, and I am also looking at this from a Police Officer's prospective, since I will not be restricted by any laws concerning the amount of bullets I can carry once I graduate. Then I will finally be able to use full clips outside our range when we aren't in class, and I want a pistol that is going to be there with me throughout my future career.

I factored in the Glock as well, which is not popular at all here with Officers. I haven't really understood that because a glock is a really great gun to have and requires alot less maintenance, and the frame is built from materials that are great when you're looking into longevity. But I have a theory that it's a little too 'girly' looking and it has more of a small power-tool feel to it. I don't like the grip to it at all either, but I would like to own one eventually in the future just to finally say that 'yeah I have a glock', but it's not something I am really looking for right now.

The 1911's are a gun that noone carries here. They're an old school gun that was popular in the 80's, along with revolvers, but eventually just died out. I have only fired a 1911 once on the range way back in the day when I got my liscense, and I just didn't have a connection to it. For me when I pick up a handgun, it's like it has it's own animus and it's like a chemistry I have to have in order to go ahead and make a decision to own one, and I just never had that with 1911s..


Cx4 Storm shoots only pistol caliber so why not just get a pistol?.



Well, with the CX4, I like the fact that you can mount accessories up the wazoo on this gun, which I absolutely love to do, and which I appreciated on guns I've had like the AR. Also, it's frame is built to make it so the positioning of the hands allows for a more steadier shooting experience with better, smoother, and I dare say faster(?) target aquisition. I've only competed twice in Toronto shooting competitions which, as you can imagine, draws alot of tough and experienced competators, and I find that when that sort of pressure is put on me to make good accurate shots, my adrenaline goes up and I tend to get really excited, and when my blood gets pumping, I tend to shake a bit which throws my aim off a wee bit with pistols, which might be an issue though should I ever be required to pull my weapon under a stressful situation. I never had that problem at all with the CX4 in terms of pistol calibres.

[Cato]

Shotguns are my favorite weapon of choice, I've owned many of them over the years, way back when i was a CPSA shooter we shot 1oz 7/8th cartridges, my favorite cartridge was Bianchi no8s, it was easy on the shoulder always consistant, and when you cleaned the barrels out later you would hardly get any residue.
Sporting, and English skeet were my favorite disciplines.
My alltime favorite shotgun is a Winchester super grade skeet, i remember paying £369 for it in 1979.
http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n449/ruffusruffcut/1251667_win101supgrd12_01m.jpg
This is a 101 supergrade it's of the same quality as my old one.

I've decided on a 12-gauge, probably something like an H&R 1871 Pardner Pump (http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Shotguns/pardnerPump.asp, all the way at the bottom). I want something that's affordable, easy to use and has a good magazine capacity- mainly I want it for protection. My brother suggested a pistol but I've got no reason to take my (shot)gun out of the house, so I don't really want the hassle of a sidearm just yet.

[Ulf]

I want something that's affordable, easy to use and has a good magazine capacity- mainly I want it for protection.

Mossberg 500. :rolleyes:

I just ordered two side saddles and a heat shield for mine. 8 shots in the the gun and 10 as back up.

Looks like this without side saddles. (Not my picture)

http://users.frii.com/meldroc/mossberg500a.jpg

Used Mossberg goes for ~300-350 for basic model.

[Heimmacht]

The Glock 17, or newer the Glock 19. Works al the time.
It almost never breaks down. And because most of the gun is of plastic, its quite light to. The handling is next to perfect. Nicely balanced, and easy to keep clean.

Most European armies use the Glock as side-arm.

It's a 9mm weapon, NATO standard full-metal, semi hollow points, and hollow points can all be used.
It has a high V0 (mussle velocity) and is accurate up to 35metres (about 38 Yards)

Because it's light, it can be shot in Weaver-standing or single handed.

[Baron Samedi]

Walther PPK all the way!

My favorite pistol, and the one I use at the range the most.

[Heretik]

Have you thought of HS2000 or Springfield XD (as they sell it in the US)? I read many reviews and everybody who used it say it's a best buy. Never shot out of it myself though...

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hs-xd-1.jpg

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hs-xd-3.jpg

http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php

[Piparskeggr]

Heya Veritas;

My favorite house and carry gun is my Colt .45 ACP M-1911, made in March, 1919, the fellow I got it from carried it in WW II, Korea and Viet Nam. Had a gunsmith check her out for her 80th anniversary, said she was still within factory spec. I also have a Marlin Camp 45 carbine, which uses the same magazines (and a younger M-1911 A-1 from Springfield Armory).

Second favorite is my European American Arms Regulator revolver in .45 Colt.

In a real pinch, I have .44 cap and ball revolver based on the Remington design. If you go this route, get a stell framed reproduction. The brass is prettier, but will shoot loose with heavier loads. You can use Pyrodex pellets and conical bullets for more modern performance.

I like large caliber, low velocity handgun rounds, which are proven at practical distances. I also have all of our defensive handguns loaded with hollowpoints designed for maximum expansion at the velocities and distances we might be shooting.

We have his and hers gun safes.

Otherwise, a pump 12 gauge, mine is a Mossberg 500, 18" barrel, full length magazine with side-saddle, high intensity flashlight. I especially like shotguns, because a good defensive load for protecting the home can be tailored for effectiveness at the short range, plus it will not over penetrate and possibly bring harm to your neighbors.

For the smaller framed individual, some compromise may be needed. A 20 gauge can be effective at house distances. My wife like her 20" Mossberg.

If the preference is for a 9 mm, the Taurus PT 99 has served our needs well for nearly 25 years, and is comfortable for my wife to shoot.

I've found S&W's a bit too big for my hand, have a Model 59, plus a Marlin Camp 9, which uses the same magazines.

You might also check into a surplus CZ 52, single stack 9 mm, for the smaller hand. It is an older single action design, but the safety, I've found, is also a decocker. Very reliable, ours were rebarreled from the original 7.62 x 25 cartridge.

For practice, nothing beats a .22 LR, either pistol (Ruger Mk II stainless) or rifle (too many to list ,-) BUT, you must practice with the ammunition you will be using for defensive purposes. I try anf get to the range at least once a quarter, rotating, which forearms I bring.

HOWEVER you choose, learn the firearm, not just the legalities and marksmanship, but get tutoring in basic field maintenance, too. It will be no good, save as a club, if not properly cleaned and lubricated.

You will also have to think long and hard about the potential that it is a tool with which you can kill.

I've made my decision. But lately, if I feel the need to be armed because of an unusual stirring in the house, I take along a 2 million candle power spotlight, one of those rechargeable ones you can get at the boating supply or sporting goods store. I still walk very quiet for a man with bad knees and a spare tire. I key in on the noise, close my eyes, touch off the spotlight and then use my red lens flashlight to investigate. The one time it was something (last year), the kid had fallen to the ground "...blinded by the LIGHT!"

My wife and I have a simple signal if it is something, I yell "Niner!" She calls the cops. If it's all clear, I call "Calm!" She browbeats me for getting her up in the middle of the night ,-)

Pip - veteran, hunting/firearms safety instructor, gun mechanic and so forth...

[The Lawspeaker]

In case law and order break down or weapons get legalized I would go for the Walther P5

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Waltherp5.jpg

It's a bitch with little power but it is the standard weapon of the police and I would make sure that I would get my hands on those here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Glock_17.JPG

Standard weapon of the Dutch Army. Glock 17. Why those? When hell breaks loose they might be the easiest to get my hands on.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Any 9 mm short with Hydro-shock bullets

[Ulf]

I refuse to own a 9mm.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

I refuse to own a 9mm.

Reason is??????

[Ulf]

Reason is??????

Lack of stopping power, also over penetration in many loads. A 9mm hollow-point might mushroom but a .45 will never shrink.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm

[HawkR]

Now well excuse me, how can it be I haven't seen a picture or anything of the most bad-ass motherfucking ass kicking gun ever? Well, let me show it off:D

http://www.freewebs.com/dead--cell/Guns/Desert%20eagle.jpg

Oh yeah! It's the Desert Eagle, you don't need to shot with it, the sight would terrifie people to death:D

[Ulf]

Smith & Wesson 500 is better. ;)

[HawkR]

If we talk revolvers, I prefer the Dan Wesson 41 mag.

http://blammer.com/blog/wp-content/imgcache/gallery/grummz/440-danwesson41a.jpg

[Ulf]

Desert Eagle .50? lTi6GGywBAM

[The Lawspeaker]

Yap.. now I want a f.cking Desert Eagle :)

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Eastside_Dave/DesertEagle4420004.jpg

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Lack of stopping power, also over penetration in many loads. A 9mm hollow-point might mushroom but a .45 will never shrink.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm

Ever tried the Hydro shock-it destroys all bones in its way,the nice thing about it is the stopping power without killing the person behind the aggressor.

[Rudy]

(9mm)Lack of stopping power, also over penetration in many loads.
Perhaps get a laser sight for the handgun. Start at the chest level, and zip your way up towards the head. Empty your magazine. It should work.

Many people overestimate how big of a difference 1-2 millimeter makes. It is easier to conceal many of the 9mm handguns. For some people, capacity is also an issue.(8-10 rounds versus say 15-19)

[Piparskeggr]

2 points to the original question: limitations on calibers suitable for use in the police-civilian security field, and constraints on the sort of ammunition allowable under community rules of engagement.

The first is most likely in the 9 MM (.357/.38) - 11 MM (.45) range.

The second is likely in an approved hollow point, soft point, round nose, truncated cone or full metal jacket projectile design.

That being said, if I could afford (and find) one, I'd get a Para Ordnance 14-45. Its a high capacity .45 ACP variant of the M-1911 design, which is just a couple of mm thicker than a single stack 1911.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s171/kixonrt66/P14-45004.jpg

[Ulf]

Perhaps get a laser sight for the handgun. Start at the chest level, and zip your way up towards the head. Empty your magazine. It should work.

Many people overestimate how big of a difference 1-2 millimeter makes. It is easier to conceal many of the 9mm handguns. For some people, capacity is also an issue.(8-10 rounds versus say 15-19)

This (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=69693&postcount=1842) is the gun I carry. It holds 6+1 rounds of .45 acp. If I have to shoot at someone more than my mag capacity, maybe I should consider using a bat instead. The nice thing with my .45 is I do not need to aim for the head for effective stopping power, even for larger individuals.

IMO, there is no advantage to having a larger mag capacity for conceal carry/self-defense. More often you are better off with a good knife.

[Rudy]

Most service rounds will not work quickly unless you hit the CNS, the head, or the heart.

The reason for the high capacity is that trouble frequently does not come alone, but in packs.

One could make a low capacity system work if they carried 3 or 4 extra magazines.

Knives usually look worse in court, but could be an effective backup with training.

[Piparskeggr]

Shooting center of mass is best...but to defeat body armor on a perp, the inner thigh; femoral artery. I haven't seen too many civilians cover this, vast majority think of torso, groin and head.

Similar principle for riot baton; center of mass (solar plexus) and then the back or side of the knee instead of the head and shoulders.

Idea either way is to make sure the trouble maker is the one on the ground and not you.

Pip

[Ulf]

Most service rounds will not work quickly unless you hit the CNS, the head, or the heart.
The center mass is the desired target. It's easiest to hit and with a good round will disable anyone.


The reason for the high capacity is that trouble frequently does not come alone, but in packs.
This is where you make an example of one of them, even with a gun you still need to retreat and never turn your back. People are hesitant to attack someone brandishing a gun.



One could make a low capacity system work if they carried 3 or 4 extra magazines.
Again, if I need to shoot three or four magazines, then I think I'd be a bit over my head at that point. After shooting my first magazine I would have retreated if the threat was still real.


Knives usually look worse in court, but could be an effective backup with training.
In a close range confrontation I would opt for my knife before my gun. My gun is a visual deterrent and effective stopping tool. It does me no good if, within a close range struggle, I can not draw it and bring it up quickly enough to be effective. My knife can be taken out much quicker and can be used to buy time to draw my gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill


A common test of handgun skill was to start with one’s hands at shoulder level with a holstered gun and place two shots on a target 7 yards (6.4 m) away within 1.5 seconds. Typically, those trained with handguns can complete the drill in 1.3–1.4 seconds, although some have managed the task in less than one second.

Tueller wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover those same 21 feet (6.4 m). So he measured as volunteers raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, “How Close is Too Close?”

A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being charged with murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a “danger zone” where an attacker presented a clear threat.

We have the same idea, just different sides of the coin. :thumbs up

[Rudy]

The center mass is the desired target. It's easiest to hit and with a good round will disable anyone.
There have been example of "perps" that have taken a 50 cal 12 gauge slug to the torso, and turned themselves in a week later. There were many people in Viet Nam that took multiple 50 cal FMJs to the torso, and are still walking around today. Either the round hits something such as an artery or organ, or it does not.
I remember one comment from a LEO that people in his department didn't have to take any more backup shots on "perps" with a 12 gauge once they moved their target from center of mass, to the upper center of mass near the neck. To each their own.


This is where you make an example of one of them, even with a gun you still need to retreat and never turn your back. People are hesitant to attack someone brandishing a gun.
It is possible that they will run away, but not necessarily.
Example where they did not run away.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/nyregion/14shoot.html?_r=3&hp


Again, if I need to shoot three or four magazines, then I think I'd be a bit over my head at that point. After shooting my first magazine I would have retreated if the threat was still real.
There is an example from South America where it feels good while blasting away with a revolver, but when the gun is empty and the "bad guys" are still in pursuit, then a lump forms in the throat.


In a close range confrontation I would opt for my knife before my gun. My gun is a visual deterrent and effective stopping tool. It does me no good if, within a close range struggle, I can not draw it and bring it up quickly enough to be effective. My knife can be taken out much quicker and can be used to buy time to draw my gun.
Some people carry "clinch picks" to aid gun retention. They should be razor sharp.


We have the same idea, just different sides of the coin.
It is just conversation like at a gun store, while not trying to be a gun store commando.:D

[Svipdag]

This is the pistol I have chosen for home defense. The "Judge" can fire either .45 cal. Long Colt cartridges or .410 3" shotshells, preferably loaded with either 00 or 000 buckshot. It will also accomodate 2½" shotshells, of course. Being a 5-shot revolver, it can accomodate mixed loads of Long Colt cartridges and .410 shotshells, if desired.

The 3" .410 shotshell holds either 3 #000 or 4 #00 pellets. The #00 pellet is 0.32" (8mm.) in diameter, and the #000 pellet is ~0.35" (~9mm.) in diameter. I suspect that these loads have more stopping power than a .45 Long Colt.

The Judge 3" Magnum is available with either a 3" or a 6" barrel . With the 6" barrel, it is about 13" long, which I consider very unwieldy. I bought the one with the 3" barrel. Remember that the chambers of the cylinder are 3" deep.
Therefore, when shooting the .45 Long Colt cartridge one has an effective barrel length, counting the chamber, of nearly 5½ inches.

Of course, the important question is "How is it to shoot ?" When shooting .45 Long Colt, it must be held with both hands or God only knows what you'll hit.
At 30 feet, I got everything within the 7-ring and two rounds within the 9-ring
This is less a reflection on the pistol than on me. I don't claim to be a very good pistol shot.

With the 3" .410 shotshells, the recoil is fierce. At around 25 feet, I got most of the pellets inside the paper. A younger and stronger man could probably do much better. Surely, even with me at the trigger, an intruder would find the number of perforations in his epidermis most disconcerting !

Like all Taurus pistols, this one is made in Brazil. It sells for about $530.

[Sol Invictus]

When shooting .45 Long Colt, it must be held with both hands or God only knows what you'll hit.


Now that's my idea of Gun Control.

BTW, update:

I went with the Glock.

[Piparskeggr]

http://www.usfirearms.com/im/1911_1.jpg

Here's a new manufactured version of my "Old Warhorse," which was made in March, 1919. The man I bought her from carried her in combat in WW II, Korea and Viet Nam.

At pistol combat distances she still shoots tight enough that I can put 2-magazines (plus 1 in the chamber) into the 9 - 10 ring of a man-size silhouette target.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c124/Jkingson/DSC05445.jpg

Pair it up with one of these as they take the same magazines. Unfortunately Marlin discontinued making this rifle.

[Ulf]

The Judge for home defence? Since you're not concealing or carrying why not just have an actual shotgun and an actual .45.

Mossberg and a 1911 are the way to go for HD. The Judge would be something great to have under the seat of your car.

[Svipdag]

I have a Mossberg 500 also, but it's much more awkward to handle than the Judge. I keep it loaded with 00 buckshot: 12 pellets in a 12-gauge shotshell.
It's downstairs in a gun rack whereas the Judge is in the nightstand by my bed.

I have a concealed carry permit and could carry the Judge if I had a holster for it. I'm hoping that Santa Claus will leave one under my tree. ;)

[MarcvSS]

Glock 23...

But usually I carry the .22 semi on me... (Fitts nicely in ones pocket.)

[LoneWolf]

All Good Choices
The Walther P99 is an excellent choice and my personal favorite in the world of plastic guns. They make this gun with two different firing systems the QA and the AS. The P99 AS is my favorite because it's one of the only plastic guns with decent trigger. With the firing pin cocked the gun is effectively SA but you can press the decocker and make the trigger pull much heavier so you have a safer carry.
The Hk is a great gun as well though. Very ergonomic, it is effectively an updated USP. Very reliable and pretty manageable and has a decocker as well. I am partial to hammer guns so bonus points there.
And the Beretta, hey it's cool, and with the longer barrel you have a much more potent cartridge. Example; the glock 17L with just over a 6" barrel can bring a 9mm into the same velocities as a 357 mag snub nose. Now imagine a 40sw out of a 16"+ bbl. and the longer sight radius makes it that much more effective.

Just don't buy a taurus pt111

[MarcvSS]

The Beowulf cal 50 weaponsystem for AR-15, M4 and M16 would be glorious to own btw.


0CrUARlmqso

[LoneWolf]

^^^ Agreed

[MarcvSS]

I have an off topic question for the gun-fanatics amongst us...

If you take a bullet and carve a cross in the top, the bullet when fired will splitt open, right?

When exactly does it do that? Any chance of damaging the barrel? What about velocity, range and impact? Say where talking about a 9 mil pb here...

[Rudy]

If you take a bullet and carve a cross in the top, the bullet when fired will splitt open, right?
The metal skin may rip off, and the lead core will stay intact.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot32.htm

There is usually not any lead fragmentation unless you use a rifle round.

[Sol Invictus]

The metal skin may rip off, and the lead core will stay intact.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot32.htm

There is usually not any lead fragmentation unless you use a rifle round.

+1 On this one PD.

I would think carving it would just damage the skin. Not sure though.

Where's Oulf? :p

[Ulf]

From Rudy's link it would seem better to mark an X on your rifle rounds but stick to hollow points with pistol ammo.

[MarcvSS]

From Rudy's link it would seem better to mark an X on your rifle rounds but stick to hollow points with pistol ammo.

That wasn't my question...

[Frigga]

Are you talking about soft nose bullets? I'm assuming you are. I would just get hollow points if you want expansion. Soft nose are good for deeper penetration with delayed expansion if I'm remembering correctly from the BF talking about ballistics! :p

[MarcvSS]

Are you talking about soft nose bullets? I'm assuming you are. I would just get hollow points if you want expansion. Soft nose are good for deeper penetration with delayed expansion if I'm remembering correctly from the BF talking about ballistics! :p

Still that doesn't answer my question...

[LoneWolf]

In the case of a 9mm luger (parabellum) sjsp 124 bullet. you will get a four leaf effect when your bullet expands, like you said it splits (or begins to). The splitting happens on contact with target no sooner just like hollow points don't mushroom untill they hit resistance from like a fluid or solid. The splitting effect should correlate to A) the velocity and B) the resistance the bullet faces and C) how deep your X is. so if you hit a large bone with your bullet it will be much more likely to break up. there is also no guarantee that the bullet does not simply mushroom on impact. and there should be no danger to your bore if you use sjsp, or lswchp bullets the latter would be better imho and it defiantly cooler (if they even exist for 9mm). if you use a fmj you could cause jacket separation and foul your bore with copper crap or worst case scenario, risk barrel obstruction but again imho the likely hood of that is very low. If you test these let me know, if I do i'll post. I've talked to some guys who will attest to the fact that it does work on china men when used on a 30 caliber carbine round (korean war).

[MarcvSS]

In the case of a 9mm luger (parabellum) sjsp 124 bullet. you will get a four leaf effect when your bullet expands, like you said it splits (or begins to). The splitting happens on contact with target no sooner just like hollow points don't mushroom untill they hit resistance from like a fluid or solid. The splitting effect should correlate to A) the velocity and B) the resistance the bullet faces and C) how deep your X is. so if you hit a large bone with your bullet it will be much more likely to break up. there is also no guarantee that the bullet does not simply mushroom on impact. and there should be no danger to your bore if you use sjsp, or lswchp bullets the latter would be better imho and it defiantly cooler (if they even exist for 9mm). if you use a fmj you could cause jacket separation and foul your bore with copper crap or worst case scenario, risk barrel obstruction but again imho the likely hood of that is very low. If you test these let me know, if I do i'll post. I've talked to some guys who will attest to the fact that it does work on china men when used on a 30 caliber carbine round (korean war).Now this is a answer to my question... Thanks man...