Pagan Portugal

[Catrau]

The All Saints day was established as a Christian festival in 609 or 610 by Pope Boniface IV [1]. The Christian tradition tends to smother and obliterate the root of all these pagan traditions as old as time and sourced from our Indo-European cultural matrix.

Yesterday, when driving on a highway in the province of Salamanca, heard on a local radio Salmantina, therefore from a land of great religious Christian fervor, a brief note about this pagan tradition. Nothing that I did not already knew but the truth is that around here we seem to have qualms about speaking in pagan culture that, despite intense romanization that brought us many good things such as law, organization and communication routes, also resulted in a large misappropriation of indigenous traditions as cults and language. For some reason our forefathers fought to the death against the Romans.

Our traditions further afield this time of year talk about partying and the dead-end cycle of crops that had begun with the sowing of spring. It was also the time when the cattle were collected from summer pastures and slaughtered to provide meat coat and for the winter [2]. This festival ended the enjoyable life and the great labor of summer and most of the spring and autumn. The men and women drunk a beer then fabricated [3] [4]. Note that in this Celtic or celtizied society, the women had as much importance as men at work and in war [4]. These ancestral rhythms and traditions are typical of many peoples but since the 1st millennium before our era, in Atlantic Europe in general and in particular in the lands where we live today and that we call Portugal, Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria and Leon [5]. These festivals are known and described as Samhain in early Irish literature [6]. What we have to do with Ireland? It is that today it is known by genetic marking that despite having passed by here many people, they were nothing but drops of coffee in a cup of milk and that we are basically what we were already 3000 years ago [7] [8]. Moreover, it is known that Ireland and the south of England, among other important migrations, were also occupied by the Celts of Iberia [9] precisely as described in the Lebor Gabála Érenn (Book of Invasions of Ireland) [10] and the legend of Breogan, the Celtic King of the northwest that gave its name to Brigantia (A Coruña) and Bragança. Some of the traditions of this time of the year were brought there, others were already there and also came from central Europe, therefore, say that Haloween is an Anglo-Saxon tradition is not correct, it is a Celtic tradition still well rooted among us in Tras-os-Montes but not called that way. The Transmontanos know how to preserve their pagan traditions as the night of witches, witchcraft, the cures based on what nature gives (reminiscent of the Druids?), The Carnival, the bull fights (not “tourada”, it’s a different thing called “Chega de bois”), the bagpipes, the pauliteiros, etc. . and they discuss them in the Vilar de Perdizes Congress, always on par with the best Christian tradition. This means that these two worlds are reconcilable and we can and must further explore this facet of our long and rich history as a people. Understand it better results in understand ourselves better to have more pride in what we are.

The trikel is the major pagan symbol for us. It's equivalent to the christian cross.
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/triskel.jpg

After the Roman conquest, this Celtic tradition was adapted by the Romans who named it Lemuralia, it was a festival for the dead in which they practiced rites to exorcise the evil spirits and the Vestals prepared with flour dumplings made with fresh crops that year [11]. Finally, in the seventh century, the Lemuralia lost its profane dimension and became the Day of the Dead (November 2) that today we celebrate the day of All Saints (1 November), or rather celebrated because those smart guys Lisbon and the church saw fit to eliminate the holiday corresponding to this millennia festival.

A final word about the "cookies" tradition. On the first of November in the morning, the kids knock at the doors and ask: “bolinhos, bolinhos à porta dos santinhos” it means “cockies, cockies at saints door”. Lately, I started to read (never referenced information) that this old tradition is called "Bread-for-God" and that it appeared in Lisbon in the year after the earthquake of 1775 [12]. After that year the kids spent this day knocking on doors asking for bread to remedy poverty, sang verses etc, etc, something very farfetched. For me, this is a new thing, in my land we never called it "Bread-for-God", there has always been and still is "Cookies, cookies at saints door!" There were never verses recited at the doors (its too civilized to barbaric like us), and never asked for the cookies to stave off hunger, cookies are sweet, are a delicacy. We ask for cookies because our grandparents did it before and was a way to maintain an old tradition, and they do exactly the same thing in northern Spain. I would like very much that those guys from the capital stop wanting to foist the rest of the Portuguese what they think is their traditions (Bread-for-God, fado, bullfights (touradas), moormania, etc..), We can enjoy all of these things but do not extrapolate them to the rest of the Portuguese, is a lack of respect. We are a small and uniform country but culturally rich and diverse. This Bread-for-God thing leads us immediately to think why is it that the Irish, British, Americans, Australians have exactly this same tradition of cookies? Kids will knock at the doors and ask "Trick-or-Treat?" Instead of giving them cookies give them candy; They have masques (to frighten) but not here; There do it in the afternoon of the 31st but here in the morning on day 1st. It's the same thing and was not born in Lisbon 250 years ago.

There they go: the kids with their bags after the cockies
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Tomar188.jpg


The church does not need to rip our ancestry because it already has a very important place in our traditions and Lisbon can keep to themselves their traditions, or stop inventing them, this way they will let other Portuguese realize who they really are.


[1] Hileman, Laura, 2003. What is All Saint's Day?, The Upper Room (United Methodist Church).
[2] Manuel Velasco, 2004. Breve historia de los Celtas, Ediciones Nowtilus - Saber. ISBN: 84-9763-241-9
[3] Pedro Silva, 2006. História dos Lusitanos, Prefacio Publishing, ISBN: 989-8022-05-1
[4] John Vaz, 2009. Lusitanos - no tempo de Viriato, Ésquilo Publisher, ISBN: 978-989-8092-51-9
[5] Haywood, John, 2001. The Historical Atlas of the Celtic World, Thames & Hudson, ISBN: 978-0500051092
[6] Ross, Anne, 1981. The Celtic Consciousness: Material Culture, Myth and Folk Memory, O'Driscoll, Robert (Ed.), Braziller, New York, pp. pp.197-216: ISBN: 0-8076-1136-0
[7] Pereira, Luisa and Ribeiro, Philippa, 2009. The Genetic Portuguese heritage - The history preserved in human genes, Gradiva, ISBN: 978-989-616-326-6
[8] Cunliffe, Barry and Koch, John, 2012. Celtic from the West: Alternative Perspectives from Archaeology, Genetics, Language and Literature, Celtic Studies Publications, Oxbow Books, ISBN: 978-1842174753
[9] Koch, John, 2009. Tartessian: Celtic in the South-west at the Dawn of History, Celtic Studies Publications, ISBN: 978-1891271175
[10] Danaher, Kevin, 1981. The Celtic Consciousness: Irish Folk Tradition and the Celtic Calendar, O'Driscoll, Robert (Ed.), Braziller, New York, pp.217-242: ISBN 0-8076-1136-0
[11] Thaniel, George, 1973. Lemurs and Larvae - The ordinary appellation for the dead in late Republican and early Imperial times, pp. 182-187.
[12] - Dia de Todos-os-Santos - Pão-por-Deus, Wikipedia, http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dia_de_Todos-os-Santos on November 1, 2012.

[Damião de Góis]

There they go: the kids with their bags after the cockies
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Tomar188.jpg


I saw this ridiculous scene here yesterday night. I'm guessing they are supposed to be celebrating halloween, which is something people don't celebrate here. I never did or witnessed it when i was a kid. But now we see these scenes... i think it's kids who have been watching too many movies. One day they will celebrate Thanksgiving too. :rolleyes:

[Slycooper]

I saw this ridiculous scene here yesterday night. I'm guessing they are supposed to be celebrating halloween, which is something people don't celebrate here. I never did or witnessed it when i was a kid. But now we see these scenes... i think it's kids who have been watching too many movies. One day they will celebrate Thanksgiving too. :rolleyes:

:confused: I didn't no Halloween was not celebrated in Portugal.

[Damião de Góis]

:confused: I didn't no Halloween was not celebrated in Portugal.

No, it's only celebrated in english speaking countries.. or in countries that adopted it. In the same way the japanese adopted baseball.

[Catrau]

I saw this ridiculous scene here yesterday night. I'm guessing they are supposed to be celebrating halloween, which is something people don't celebrate here. I never did or witnessed it when i was a kid. But now we see these scenes... i think it's kids who have been watching too many movies. One day they will celebrate Thanksgiving too. :rolleyes:

It's not haloween. And we do this for centuries. But it's much alike.
It's basically the same thing, but on the 1st of November in the morning.

I did it when I was a kid and didn't dream that there was something called halloween. Everybody do this in his juvenile years.

It real, it's been happening for centuries.

[Damião de Góis]

It's not haloween. And we do this for centuries. But it's much alike.
It's basically the same thing.

I did it when I was a kid and didn't dream that there was something called halloween.

Ok, then it's something you have in your region that we don't have here.

[Catrau]

Oh yes you do, you call it "Pão-por-Deus", and the way it is explained makes me laugh.

We have that since ever because we kept it since ever. It's done all the way north and in Spain. This is absolutely true. Unfortunately I can't show you any photos of me doing it but I have photos of my daughter last year. I'm even amazed that this is new for you.

[Damião de Góis]

Oh yes you do, you call it "Pão-por-Deus", and the way it is explained makes me laugh.

We have that since ever because we kept it since ever. It's done all the way north and in Spain. This is absolutely true. Unfortunately I can't show you any photos of me doing it but I have photos of my daughter last year. I'm even amazed that this is new for you.

I've heard of that expression... but after checking what it was on wiki, i've never done it or saw it. The first time i saw some sort of "trick or treat" thing was in the movies.

[Catrau]

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Tomar188.jpg

I saw this ridiculous scene here yesterday night. I'm guessing they are supposed to be celebrating halloween, which is something people don't celebrate here. I never did or witnessed it when i was a kid. But now we see these scenes... i think it's kids who have been watching too many movies. One day they will celebrate Thanksgiving too. :rolleyes:

Come on, you shouldn't say this. It is very important for us and you are reducing it to something ridiculous because of ignorance.

These kids wait for this day and today I saw dozens of groups while I was going to the cementery, my daughter did it with our neighbors. Kids even do it in town, not only in the villages.

We say: Bolinhos, bolinhos à porta dos santinhos!

Here are the Bolinhos:
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Rio269.jpg

I'm quite amazed but on the other hand, profundly proud of my ancestry.

[Damião de Góis]

Come on, you shouldn't say this. It is very important for us and you are reducing it to something ridiculous because of ignorance.

These kids wait for this day and today I saw dozens of groups while I was going to the cementery, my daughter did it with our neighbors. Kids even do it town, not only in the villages.

I'm quite amazed but on the other hand, profundly proud of my ancestry.

I confused it with something else. Something which was what i saw yesterday.

[Transmontano]

When I lived in Chaves I never saw any of this. The closest thing to Halloween where candy was given or whatever was "Carnaval" and it was in March (or more or less a month within that - I can't remember) but it wasn't door to door getting candy and it's a holiday that people kept more or less but it was not a big deal. A lot of people didn't even do it or care about it.

The people who are all into the Celtic roots thing lately like to talk about Samao (Samhain), which is Halloween.

I don't doubt what you say I'm just saying I never saw it but then again I guess there are a lot of things I don't know.

In the last couple of years alone I discovered a lot of things I never knew.

For example, I thought everyone in Portugal talked the way they do in the North, cause it was the only thing I knew. I never knew about the Celts. I never knew about the ties with Galicia, I never knew that the "mouros" were really the people who supposedly built the stonehenge type things, etc., etc., etc...

[Riki]

When I lived in Chaves I never saw any of this. The closest thing to Halloween where candy was given or whatever was "Carnaval" and it was in March (or more or less a month within that - I can't remember) but it wasn't door to door getting candy and it's a holiday that people kept more or less but it was not a big deal. A lot of people didn't even do it or care about it.

The people who are all into the Celtic roots thing lately like to talk about Samao (Samhain), which is Halloween.

I don't doubt what you say I'm just saying I never saw it but then again I guess there are a lot of things I don't know.

In the last couple of years alone I discovered a lot of things I never knew.

For example, I thought everyone in Portugal talked the way they do in the North, cause it was the only thing I knew. I never knew about the Celts. I never knew about the ties with Galicia, I never knew that the "mouros" were really the people who supposedly built the stonehenge type things, etc., etc., etc...

You were going fine untill....

Catrau will tell you off now.:D

[Riki]

Catrau:
in Atlantic Europe in general and in particular in the lands where we live today and that we call Portugal, Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria and Leon [5]. These festivals are known and described as Samhain in early Irish literature

Portugal e Galiza
O Samhain é uma festa associada ao ciclo anual do sol que faz parte do Património Imaterial Galego-Português. A recuperação da tradição do Samhain envolve várias escolas que promovem actividades que por sua vez são inseridas na promoção da candidatura a Património Imaterial.[5][6] Diversas aldeias na Galiza começaram a recuperar as celebrações apoiadas pela recolha de testemunhos e documentos sobre as antigas tradições locais [7][8] Provavelmente o Magusto seja o herdeiro directo no território da velha Gallaecia do antigo Samhain, conservado ainda hoje com o seu ritual culinário específico no que as castanhas fazem uma parte importante do mesmo."

[Transmontano]

For example, I thought everyone in Portugal talked the way they do in the North, cause it was the only thing I knew. I never knew about the Celts. I never knew about the ties with Galicia, I never knew that the "mouros" were really the people who supposedly built the stonehenge type things, etc., etc., etc...

You were going fine untill....

Catrau will tell you off now.:D

:rolleyes: That's OK. I'm used to getting told off.

Seriously. One of the things some of the peeps in the north say is that before the Musulmans came the people who built the castros, etc., are the one referred to as the "mouros" The Musulmans were being called "mouros" because they were very different and in that sense they fit the profile of these mysterious people. That's one theory anyway. But Those people from times of old are called by some of the old folks "Mouros" and not referring to the muslims.

[Damião de Góis]

:rolleyes: That's OK. I'm used to getting told off.

Seriously. One of the things some of the peeps in the north say is that before the Musulmans came the people who built the castros, etc., are the one referred to as the "mouros" The Musulmans were being called "mouros" because they were very different and in that sense they fit the profile of these mysterious people. That's one theory anyway. But Those people from times of old are called by some of the old folks "Mouros" and not referring to the muslims.

You must mean this:

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moura_encantada

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-juI8sxopiC8/UALCv3oVodI/AAAAAAAAKiw/hYD7v3WxJiU/s1600/angelestrellabis.jpg

But that's as far as it goes. The people who built the castros had other names.

[Transmontano]

You must mean this:

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moura_encantada

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-juI8sxopiC8/UALCv3oVodI/AAAAAAAAKiw/hYD7v3WxJiU/s1600/angelestrellabis.jpg

But that's as far as it goes. The people who built the castros had other names.

Yea i knew about that. It's loosely what in english is called a fairy. But some people called the castro builders "mouros" The word is also used to describe the builders of the castros, whether that's what they are usually/officially/alternately named or not. The Musulmans were then called "mouros" by the northern peninsulars (?)

You might be right. I'm just passing info.


As tradições populares, a que anda ligado o nome de mouros, são alguns séculos mais velhas que a aparição dos mouros (árabes) na Península; ou, para tirarmos a esta afirmativa o seu ar paradoxal, o nome de mouros intrometeu-se sub-repticiamente num corpo de tradições, que estavam formadas, muito antes da invasão árabe na Espanha.

Sem levarmos em conta uma grande massa de superstições e
de crendices, que pertencem a este ciclo pseudo-moirisco, baste-nos considerar os dois seguintes factos:

— O povo atribui aos mouros todas as antigas construções,
cujas relíquias abundam nos nossos montes e vales;

Continued: http://www.csarmento.uminho.pt/docs/sms/obra/FMSDispersos_011.pdf

[Catrau]

:rolleyes: That's OK. I'm used to getting told off.

Seriously. One of the things some of the peeps in the north say is that before the Musulmans came the people who built the castros, etc., are the one referred to as the "mouros" The Musulmans were being called "mouros" because they were very different and in that sense they fit the profile of these mysterious people. That's one theory anyway. But Those people from times of old are called by some of the old folks "Mouros" and not referring to the muslims.


That's a nice subject you've introduced here.

One of these days I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about, as you may expect, the moor overrated influence on us, which some of you may agree and others not, and he asks me:

So why the hell we have all those moorish related things about enchated moors and moor holes and moor valleys and moor what ever...?

I've told him that the moorish invasion must have inflict terror among the population and also because they were so different, all the fantasies, frightening places and fantastic characters changed their usual relation to sorcelers and fairies of the old celtic mithology and started a new one that also doesn't exist anymore but whose names were kept. This exists in Galicia and especially in northern Portugal where the moorish occupation and authority is nothing but a vision, especially if we compare the duration time of that possible moorish rule with the time that they effectively ruled in the south and where there aren’t those almost mythological references like:

Vale de mouros (moors Valley)
Ponte de mouros (moors bridge)
Rio de Mouros (moors river)
Pedra de Mouros (moors stone)
Vilar de Mouros (moor hamlet)
Terras de mouros (moor lands)
Meda de mouros (moors heap of wheat)
Gruta de mouros (moors cave)

In the majority of these places the reference to moors is merely circuntancial or maybe because of some random past event that was caught in the people minds.

About this All Saints day traditions. It's foundations are, no doubt, the ancient pagan traditions but although our most elected nowadays pagan lands are Tás-os-Montes I really don't know if you have there this same traditions but I know that this cookies thing is also done or was done in a recent past in the villages of the northern Salamanca province, Zamora and Valladolid which are more or less the northwestern Castilla y León. Some of my teachers in Spain confirm that they did something alike when they were kids. We talked about that last week. I don't know if they still do it in Galicia.
We must take into account that, despite many confusing things, we tend to preserve much better those kind of old traditions than they do. They kind of embraced the modern world in such a manner that, for many people those old pagan and Christian traditions are kind of backwards. It's a kind of big city attitude that we also may have in a big city like Lisbon but that mostly didn't reached the rural areas. I have Mexican and Argentinian and Brazilian colleagues in Spain that really are amazed with the way we try to keep and keep our traditions and I never thought about it before I started to listen to those compliments. So I accept easily that many very old traditions may have been, not lost but forgotten lately in Spain.
Despite the Romanization that was extremely effective as we know, more than 9000 roman sites in Portugal alone, it’s a vast legacy that proves that, despite far from genetically relevant, it was hugely relevant in terms of a change from an Atlantic culture towards a Mediterranic one that dragged a new language (Latin) promptly adapted to a Romanic language, the Roman law and in the last two centuries of the empire, also the Christian religion, the new concept to build the cities, the new construction methods, the new architecture, the road network, the bridges etc. That legacy is still right in front of our eyes (unlike others). Despite all this, it’s clear that there were fractions of that Atlantic pre roman Celtic tradition that remained and it remained especially in central and northern Portugal, maybe mainly because of that mountainous terrain that have maintained the romans at distance for almost 200 years and did the same to the moors who “conquered” desert and difficult lands. Those lands are obviously difficult to dominate, to maintain. In the case of the romans the overcome by fatigue but in the case of the moors with the migration towards north we all remixed there but among ourselves or with ethnically close to us other peoples. In fact some of the roman historians call Lusitanians to everyone in the western Iberic facade, maybe that meant there wasn’t much loss of tradition that was brought south again later.

[Catrau]

Pagan Portugal Forum

http://portugalpagao.open-board.com/

[HispaniaSagrada]

Chega de Bois em Montalegre:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YhJu1-F0CU

Nao tenho certeza de nada mas aqui vai. O "Jack O' Lantern" do Halloween em Portugal chama-se "Coca" (proto celta "krowka" = cabeca) e a "Coca" Portuguesa tem origem em Galicia e Portugal e e uma especie de fantasma de cabeca iluminada pra meter medo aos putos. Alem da abobora (o que e tradicional mas acho que a origem certa e uma maca ou fruta do carvalho que se parece a maca) e tambem se pode referir a castanhas e tambem se pode usar nabos, macas, caixas, panelas, etc, com buracos i iluminar por dentro. A mais antiga referencia a coca acho que vem do seculo 13 e em Portugal e respresentado como um dragao (talvez por influencia dos Ingleses e do sao Jorge) mas em outras partes da peninsula iberica tem outros simbolos diferentes mas parecidos. O "coco" espalhou-se pelo resto da penisnula Iberica e tambem ate America Latina mas a origem e galaica/portuguesa. Mas isso do Samhain (Halloween) nao ha provas que eu saiba de existir em Portugal/Galicia antiguamente mas agora chama-se "Dia das Bruxas" Nao sei ao certo o que fazem nesse dia mas uma coisa como os Galegos fazem e uma bebida que se chama "queimada". "Halloween" vem de "All Hallows Eve" e quer dizer "A vespera do dia dos santos" (o "dia dos santos" sim que existe) Ha uma festa das caveiras ou caliveras (Samhain) em Galicia que dizem ser "recuperada" ha uns 20 e tal anos atras mas nao e certo queu saiba de ter existido e esquecido. Agora, se nao estou enganado o Halloween foi inventado pra disfarcar o Samhain, porque na Escocia ou o carai fizeram contra a lei celebrar o Samhain, portanto nao faz sentido ter existido o Halloween em Portugal, apesar de ser Samhain disfarcado mas... Isto de um ser ter uma cabeca iluminada (coca) tambem existe na Irlanda mas a lenda e diferente, acho que na Irlanda contam de um gajo chamado Jack que enganou o Diabo e o Diabo fodido fez dele uma cabeca de nabo iluminado pra ver o caminho na escuridao. Isso de usar aboboras foi na America quando os Irlandeses viram ca as aboboras (acho que sao originarias de ca) e acharam que serviam bem pra fazer os "Jack o Lanterns" Se Samhain nao existiu em "Portugal" e uma coincidencia interessante haver estas coisas.

Coca-Cola vem da palavra portuguesa "coca" (dragao).

http://www.hudsonvalleyhalloweenmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/pumpkin.gif

A coisa de pedir rebucados, chocolates, pao doce etc., porta a porta lembro me vagamente fazerem no norte mas nao sei se era no dias dos santos mas sim que me lembro fazerem tal coisa a volta da pascoa ou ate um bocado mais cedo.

[PeacefulCaribbeanDutch]

the latinization / christianization of southern europe gave it more conscience and humility

[Catrau]

the latinization / christianization of southern europe gave it more conscience and humility

Sorry but I can't reach the meaning of your post.
You mean that romans had more conscience and were more humble??
And locals were a bunch of primitives.

You are absolutely wrong. Rome won by the force of arms and enforce the language, religion and law.
But locals had to be a very well organized nation, only that explains the 200 years of fight and resistance against mighty Rome which included many offensives to the Mediterranean coast of Iberia, a 1000 km away. They were very democratic and in many cases women were hierarchically more important than men and fought alongside them.

Victors usually write history on their terms and that included calling locals thieves and barbarians. Sometimes I call Romans "Southern Barbarians", even if in the end peace was achieved and the roman way adopted. But we’ve lost our culture and language a became enslaved for a number of decades before gaining the right to have a political say in our future.

[HispaniaSagrada]

Sorry but I can't reach the meaning of your post.
You mean that romans had more conscience and were more humble??
And locals were a bunch of primitives.

You are absolutely wrong. Rome won by the force of arms and enforce the language, religion and law.
But locals had to be a very well organized nation, only that explains the 200 years of fight and resistance against mighty Rome which included many offensives to the Mediterranean coast of Iberia, a 1000 km away. They were very democratic and in many cases women were hierarchically more important than men and fought alongside them.

Not to mention that the defeat came from within, through treason, albeit instigated by the Romans. If treason hadn't happened who knows how long it would have been before the Romans won or if they would even win at all. We could be speaking a different language right now and things would be very different. We'd be very unique. Actually I posted something a while back that no one seems to have paid attention to about some studies by a Portuguese and a Spanish guy and it has to do with how similar the old languages were to Latin and that our language(s) is not as different today, as everyone thinks it is, from what it used to be (something like that)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ppvS8n6RL8


Victors usually write history on their terms and that included calling locals thieves and barbarians. Sometimes I call Romans "Southern Barbarians", even if in the end peace was achieved and the roman way adopted. But we’ve lost our culture and language a became enslaved for a number of decades before gaining the right to have a political say in our future.

I wouldn't call it peace but submission. In total defeat you either adapt or you kill yourself. What else can you do.

[Catrau]

... Actually I posted something a while back that no one seems to have paid attention to about some studies by a Portuguese and a Spanish guy and it has to do with how similar the old languages were to Latin and that our language(s) is not as different today, as everyone thinks it is, from what it used to be (something like that)


Could you show us the link to that post, because I can't remember it.

[HispaniaSagrada]

Could you show us the link to that post, because I can't remember it.

Certainly my good man. I don't knwo what to make of it but it's interesting to think about at least.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?77539-Origin-of-Portuguese-amp-Castilian-has-Always-Been-the-Same-%28Latin-came-from-Proto-Iberian-Konii

[Empecinado]

About the Mouros legends (also present in Galicia and Asturias), there are several hypotheses. The most credible to me are:

-During Prehistory, some natives took refuge in forests and mountains when they were invaded by Celts, Germans, Slavs (depending from the zone, in Iberia would be the Celts, proto-Celts or related peoples) ... and this gave rise to the legends of elves, trolls, goblins, dwarves ... and Mouros.

These populations probably had more Neanderthal or primitive traits than the newcomers and hence its description as small creatures, strong and half monster. This would also explain why the Mouros were considered the builders of menhirs and ancient structures.

-During the Christianization, the Pagans against it, in dwindling numbers, take refuge in the mountains and forests to escape religious persecution. This ends up giving rise to legends of the same type, pagans like savages living in the mountains, and who worship ancient structures. This could give rise to the legend of the Mouros too.

[Catrau]

Yes we can speculate a lot about it. I don't know if someone did really studied it.

I always thought about the moor toponymics as a substitution of the more ancient celtic supernatural gods and believes.
That's curious because, in Portugal, you have moor toponymics especially in the north where their control was less extended in time if they really controlled anything. In Central Portugal there is less but still there are some small locations, not villages or rivers names but a strange rock or a cave that still has some moorish legend about it. What I mean with this is that apparently there are more refefences in the places where their presence was less felt. In the outskirts of Lisbon there is a place called Rio de Mouro, I don't know if there is a river there but nowadays it is the name of a city. Then, as we travel through Alentejo, I can't recall a single Toponymic with the word Mouro. There is Moura in Baixo Alentejo by the Spanish border... and in the Algarve the true moorish land I can't remember of a toponymic name with the word Mouro. Maybe someone knows and tells us but I don't.

Concluding: apparently these toponymics moor related are in greater number whre the real moors almost had no control, northern Portugal, especially Minho.

How do we explain this? I wonder if terror and fear weren't a main reason to deify those southern barabarian toops.

About the "mouras encantadas" (enchanted moor women) depicted in popular tales as blondes and very beautiful... one thing does not imply the other... but blond moors can only support the fact that most islamites in Iberia were Iberian themselves.

[Empecinado]

In Galicia, Mouros males were depicted as dark skinned while females as pale and ginger, and wine drinkers. The Moor theory is possible too, but I'm more inclined to the Pagan/primitive people theory as they were considered builders of the Prehistoric buildings and there are similar legends through Europe.

[HispaniaSagrada]

Yes we can speculate a lot about it. I don't know if someone did really studied it.

When I lived in Portugal the only place "mouro" meant "musulman" was in school or someone who only knew what they were taught in school. When I was around my grandparents and older people their age from villages and they spoke of "mouros" they weren't talking about "musulmans" and it was quite clear to me there was a difference but in school I gave them the answers they wanted me to give and later I would listen to old people's stories. It was more interesting than what they taught in school.

[HispaniaSagrada]

dfgddg

[Gaijin]

The people who are all into the Celtic roots thing lately like to talk about Samao (Samhain), which is Halloween.

Halloween always existed in Portugal, they just call it something else.
"Festa da Cabra e do Canhoto" in Trás os Montes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNnmYxL8Kd0

Rituals of Celtic origin include Druidism.
Where the gathering of Herbs by Druids, holders of magic potions who heal people over night.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t31.0-8/s720x720/169916_489437477745286_1459271663_o.jpg
https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t31.0-8/q71/s720x720/1277683_637202462968786_1583460306_o.jpg
https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t31.0-8/s720x720/665626_489423907746643_1403298001_o.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t31.0-8/s720x720/622734_489422407746793_337824890_o.jpg

The Devil wife, a goat, is summoned and consequently barbecued in a bonfire.
Back then, they used the actual animal.

https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t31.0-8/s720x720/77582_489698281052539_1283826682_o.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t31.0-8/s720x720/134019_489696964386004_253897978_o.jpg

[Rudel]

For some reason our forefathers fought to the death against the Romans.
Your forefathers are the Romans :bored:

[Lusos]

Your forefathers are the Romans :bored:

And you are the one who tells us,who our forefathers are.

[Lithium]

https://www.facebook.com/gallaeciamotherland?fref=ts
Although I don't know a lot about Portuguese history I think that this facebook page gives a lot of information about it.

[Rudel]

And you are the one who tells us,who our forefathers are.
C'mon, it's not like I were telling you you were the sons of Atlantis.

I just find it sad to see people grasping at straws for ancient origins. If anything, those ancient Lusitanians were themselves descended from locals conquered and partly Celticized.

[Lusos]

https://www.facebook.com/gallaeciamotherland?fref=ts
Although I don't know a lot about Portuguese history I think that this facebook page gives a lot of information about it.

Good page.
Although there Is kinda like a separatist group up North (Insignificant and harmless)that Ironiclly claim to suffer from exclusion from Lisbon,yet wouldn't mind to form a Country(Their own)with Galicia.(Excludind Lisbon and the South.Ironically.)
They most of the time are the ones to look beyond.They claim the use of bagpipes as something from them.(Central,North Portugal,Galicia,etc.)Not knowing that the traditional Music from Alentejo.(South Port.)Is Polyphony with/or without bagpipes.
Example with Bagpipes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_GZhAXMwd6I
Me on other end,don't put too much emphasis on any of our Ancestors.I look at them all.(With the exception of the so liked to be pointed out,yet almost non existent moorish non-sense.)
All of them made us Portuguese.Roman,CeltIberian,
Above all.We share with our neighbours Iberia.And It's rich,unique,awesome similar history.
The fact with don't like to be called Meds.(Well not all)Is that many unique things to Iberia are "Lost"In the Med World.They should be called Iberian.

[Lusos]

C'mon, it's not like I were telling you you were the sons of Atlantis.

I just find it sad to see people grasping at straws for ancient origins. If anything, those ancient Lusitanians were themselves descended from locals conquered and partly Celticized.

You shouldn't. They are the ones who maintain the memory alive.You per example call yourself "Gallo-Franc".
To which we partially descend from.

[Grace O'Malley]

Come on, you shouldn't say this. It is very important for us and you are reducing it to something ridiculous because of ignorance.

These kids wait for this day and today I saw dozens of groups while I was going to the cementery, my daughter did it with our neighbors. Kids even do it in town, not only in the villages.

We say: Bolinhos, bolinhos à porta dos santinhos!

Here are the Bolinhos:
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Rio269.jpg

I'm quite amazed but on the other hand, profundly proud of my ancestry.

The Irish use a special fruit bread for Halloween called barmbrack. It is baked with a ring, a coin, a piece of cloth and other items; it is supposed to tell your future.

http://www.ocado.com/cmscontent/recipe_image_large/63912.jpg?AQhg

http://catherinefulvio.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/my-halloween-tradition-barmbrack/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barmbrack

[Lusos]

The Irish use a special fruit bread for Halloween called barmbrack. It is baked with a ring, a coin, a piece of cloth and other items; it is supposed to tell your future.

http://www.ocado.com/cmscontent/recipe_image_large/63912.jpg?AQhg

http://catherinefulvio.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/my-halloween-tradition-barmbrack/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barmbrack

We used to stuff things (We used to called them Bonuses"Brindes")In cakes as well.Now Is forbidden due to health and safety.

[Damião de Góis]

Your forefathers are the Romans :bored:

While the average person will only care about what happened after 1143 (independence of kingdom of Portugal), those with a deeper interest in History will view the Romans as invaders, just like the Moors or the Visigoths. The fact that a legendary hero, Viriato, was backstabbed by the romans after making a peace treaty with them also doesn't help.


https://www.facebook.com/gallaeciamotherland?fref=ts
Although I don't know a lot about Portuguese history I think that this facebook page gives a lot of information about it.

Seems to be only about northern Portugal

[Gaijin]

Who are you exactly to say what is what, or who is who? When you entitle yourself "Gallo-Franc"...
You don't see other people telling you who you are, do you? Roman.


Your forefathers are the Romans :bored:

Here, let me do the same thing for you.
You are French and therefore you are too a son of Rome, hence...

Your forefathers are the Romans. :bored:

So go ahead and drop that "Gallo-Franc" umbrella, to something that suits reality.
Something more accurate, like let's say.. "Roman".

One more thing...
The French are often regarded the great grandfathers of the Portuguese.

The foundation of Portugal starts with the House of Burgundy.
'Portugalliae' if you prefer.

Below is a picture of the Grandfather of Portugal, and the Great-Grandfather of the Portuguese, Henri de Bourgogne.

http://www2.fcsh.unl.pt/iem/medievalista/MEDIEVALISTA10/MEDIA/estefanio1002_image011.jpg

I guess that makes us Cousins. Or should I say Cousins.

[Empecinado]

Celtiberians never lived in Portugal, they lived in central-northeastern Spain.

[Rudel]

Who are you exactly to say what is what, or who is who?
I'm Rudel.


So go ahead and drop that "Gallo-Franc" umbrella, to something that suits reality.
It suits reality. It's a good general ethnic descriptor.


Something more accurate, like let's say.. "Roman".
It implies romanity, if you know anything about French history.

The Portuguese are as pagan as I'm a fucking druid, that's the reality. Seeing people jerking off on "pagan" stuff is simply baffling.
The Christianization of the Spains, mostly during Visigothic times, is far more important and relevant to your history and the world you're actually living in than local cakes and long gone tribes.

[Empecinado]

The Portuguese are as pagan as I'm a fucking druid, that's the reality. Seeing people jerking off on "pagan" stuff is simply baffling.
The Christianization of the Spains, mostly during Visigothic times, is far more important and relevant to your history and the world you're actually living in than local cakes and long gone tribes.

The Spanish Catholicism has many Pagan elements, as well the folklore.

[Gaijin]

I'm Rudel.

Yes, you are very Rude.


The Portuguese are as pagan as I'm a fucking druid, that's the reality. Seeing people jerking off on "pagan" stuff is simply baffling.

What's so wrong about the Portuguese celebrating their Pagan roots?
Does this bother you? What is your issue here?

I don't see you picking on the Greeks for attending the Olympic games, or the Norwegians for celebrating the Yule.
So, why are you picking on the Portuguese for baking local cakes?

Moreover, why are you using foul language?

Paganism exists and always existed in Portugal.
If this bothers you, then perhaps you shouldn't get to know the country at all and lengthen your level of ignorance, because such profane elements are pretty much intact, and valued by the people of such country.

Druidism is being restored in Portugal, and so far it has a attracted new members to the sect.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7382/14089755284_ab50147d2c_o.jpg
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7298/13902690317_efc932736d_o.jpg

So yes, Rudel. In it's own way and quoting you...
If the Portuguese are 'fucking' Pagans, I guess that makes you a Druid.


The Christianization of the Spains, mostly during Visigothic times, is far more important and relevant to your history and the world you're actually living in than local cakes and long gone tribes.

Spain? I thought this thread was about Portugal.

You actually encourage me to post more in this thread.

[Gaijin]

Veneration of the Wild boar

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7402/13723770324_55af3a12a7_o.jpg
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7020/13723374115_67f96cc3f4_o.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3692/13723410833_cd41d5a772_o.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3684/13723411053_19b2832a5f_o.jpg
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7379/13723411173_e21b4d4719_o.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3814/13723411373_edf8fa2317_o.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3684/13723374765_0df2085de9_o.jpg

[Gaijin]

The Wickerman

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3789/11998316104_b18cb8fb18_o.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3701/11997956985_9a62017334_o.jpg
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5473/11998315364_a6ff258002_o.jpg

[Rudel]

I don't see you picking on the Greeks for attending the Olympic games
The modern Olympic games are unrelated to the ancient ones, past the name.


Paganism exists and always existed in Portugal.
:picard1:


Druidism is being restored in Portugal, and so far it has a attracted new members to the sect.
Oh my. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. The mental level of these people is absolutely desolating.


Spain? I thought this thread was about Portugal.
"Spains" or "all Spain" includes Portugal. It refers to the wole peninsula.

[Gaijin]

I could swear you are revolted about something.


Oh my. I don't know if I should laugh or cry.
The mental level of these people is absolutely desolating.

What do you reckon about the French Druids?
Do you consider their level of sanity to be desolating, too?

French Druids:
http://www.lorient.maville.com/of-photos/2009/06/01/va05_1965658_1_px_501__w_ouestfrance_.jpg
http://www.agencebretagnepresse.com/photos/15/15625_1.jpg
http://www.letelegramme.fr/ar/imgproxy.php/PhotoIntuitions/2011/07/18/1374191_10136683-qdruide1-20110718-s122d.jpg?article=20110718-1001374191&aaaammjj=20110718
http://www.agencebretagnepresse.com/photos/22/22636_1.jpg


"Spains" or "all Spain" includes Portugal. It refers to the wole peninsula.

So, in Spain we have multiple Spains? And main Spain is a peninsula?
Now, I question you... Do you know anything about Portugal?

Apart from being a Spain...

I think from now on, people should consult Rudel as an encyclopedia.

[Benacer]

In Galicia, Mouros males were depicted as dark skinned while females as pale and ginger, and wine drinkers. The Moor theory is possible too, but I'm more inclined to the Pagan/primitive people theory as they were considered builders of the Prehistoric buildings and there are similar legends through Europe.


I've looked up a bit on this, and apparently Basques also have the word "mairu", which is a race of mythological beings (albeit very different from the Portuguese ones) and also used as the historical Moors. In Basque mythology the "Mairu" were giants who were responsible for building megalithic/pre-historic structures, so they are also associated with ancient inhabitants of the region. This seems to be too much of a coincidence in my opinion. There is also a Basque goddess named "Mari", which is more similar to the "mouras encantadas" and lamias/lamiak. I'm thinking this indeed has to do with pre-Roman cultures, probably also pre-Celtic. Maybe in the rest of Iberia these traditions were Celticized and the "moors" became something different (if they weren't already to begin with), as the word later did to refer to muslims from the south. Or the words were later mixed with Latin "maurus" and "mauretania", which is what etymologists say to be the origin of moro/mouro/moor. What seems to be certain is that the myths and toponymics have little to do with the historical moors aside of the name.

[Lusos]

Celtiberians never lived in Portugal, they lived in central-northeastern Spain.

True.I was just generalising.
(The Celts from Iberia)

[AphroditeWorshiper]

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