Madeirans, the people of Madeira

[Gaijin]

Here are illustrious people from Madeira island:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8339/8161843250_06a3074abd.jpg
Miguel Albuquerque (President of Funchal)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7276/8161836834_79042b37a6.jpg
Alberto João Jardim (Madeira President)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8348/8161836148_a43a23b833_b.jpg
Conceição Estudante (Tourism Secretary)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7111/8161835556_c7c83e06f6_b.jpg
Fátima Lopes (Fashion Designer)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8065/8161836366_c4450eef7a.jpg
Carina Freitas (Singer)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7260/8161805523_76d6779b9c_z.jpg
Alexandre Camcho (Rally Driver)

http://mrpopat.com/admin/upload/wallpaper/201109161316154653668676803.jpg
Marina Rodrigues (Miss 2003)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8063/8166563327_68fd7ddc24_b.jpg
Carlos Rebolo (Bodybuilder)

http://www.dnoticias.pt/sites/default/files/imagecache/body_300/310_0.jpg
Mara Spínola (Reality show contestant)

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kidzworld_photo/images/201075/9e8d655b-04e0-44df-8923-9cfd2883b891/gallery_cristiano3.jpg
Cristiano Ronaldo (Footballer)
Keep in mind his Grandmother was a Cape Verdean immigrant.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QkiHukGaT9Q/S3rYQwEwqRI/AAAAAAAAFXo/3nkO3Na6QdQ/s320/0,1020,46135,00.jpg
Licinia Macedo (TV Host)

[Gaijin]

Your average person in traditional clothing.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8206/8161842840_e8097c8107_b.jpg
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http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7139/8161814349_5ffa95b382_b.jpg

[Atlantic Islander]

I see zero difference between them and people from the mainland.

[Food]

Cherry picked

[Gaijin]

Cherry picked

Yes, cherry picked...:bored:
Pick a flower instead, why don you?

Here are some people parading in the traditional "Flower Fest" (Festa da Flor) held every year.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7117/8166890709_c75fc2a0cc_z.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7249/8166920318_d2ba3146ed.jpg
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"http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7137/8166893027_c96587278e.jpg"
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http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8062/8166892091_28c336fcf2.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

Cherry picked

Please enlighten us with real madeirans then.

[Sikeliot]

Most Madeirans look identical to mainland Portuguese. A small minority do not, and likely have some Cape Verdean ancestry or something else.

[Gaijin]

Festa da Flor parade
ASnuftvrI8M

Carnaval parade
2TOb5YXueIA

Miss Madeira election
MUwAVMsfoo8

[Atlantic Islander]

A small minority do not, and likely have some Cape Verdean ancestry or something else.

The videos Terror Romanorum posted seem to show otherwise.

[Transmontano]

They look like they wouldn't stand out in Portugal. Fairly typical I guess.


Here are illustrious people from Madeira island:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8063/8166563327_68fd7ddc24_b.jpg
Carlos Rebolo (Bodybuilder)

WTH? :eek:

[Gaijin]

They look like they wouldn't stand out in Portugal. Fairly typical I guess.



WTH? :eek:

In 2008 he was the Champion of the world, and in 2009 of Europe.
In 2011 he occupied the 2nd place in the category of Masters in the "Arnold Classic Amateur".
Just very recently he went to Hungary to represent Portugal.

CJ_bZ3Sl0qg

[Rouxinol]

Nuno Teixeira (PSD Madeira politician)

http://www.dnoticias.pt/sites/default/files/imagecache/body_300/nuno_teixeira.jpg

To those who expect to see mulattoes, ethnic Portuguese Madeirans look like mainlanders so if you are expecting them to look like lighter versions of Cape Verdeans you will be disappointed.

[Slycooper]

I haven't met many people from Madeira in my life. Maybe 1-2

[Damião de Góis]

To those who expect to see mulattoes, ethnic Portuguese Madeirans look like mainlanders so if you are expecting them to look like lighter versions of Cape Verdeans you will be disappointed.

Yes, there has been a weird campaign made by one person over the years on these forums to show Madeira like this:

http://abolition.e2bn.org/library/0711/0000/0066/plantation1a_360.jpg

[Slycooper]

For those of you who live in the continent. How much were you taught in school about the islands? I read somewhere that the Azores and Madeira were kind of lumped in with colonies.

[Damião de Góis]

For those of you who live in the continent. How much were you taught in school about the islands? I read somewhere that the Azores and Madeira were kind of lumped in with colonies.

We are taught how many the islands are, their cities etc. Which is something we are not taught about Brazil or Angola. So no, they aren't lumped with the ex-colonies.

[Slycooper]

We are taught how many the islands are, their cities etc. Which is something we are not taught about Brazil or Angola. So no, they aren't lumped with the ex-colonies.

K thanks Was curious

[Gaijin]

Mercado Quinhentista de Machico
C8JrVqBJHjs

Tuna D'elas da UMA
Gy-Yjnswif8

Festival da Canção Juvenil
l9KZhHA1AhU

Banda Militar da Madeira
GwBXHr5zlX8

[Sikeliot]

But there can be no denying that there is a higher amount of West African present in Madeira than in mainland Portugal or the Azores. It may be a very small amount but it is there.

[Riki]

But there can be no denying that there is a higher amount of West African present in Madeira than in mainland Portugal or the Azores. It may be a very small amount but it is there.

I'm sure you'll find some dodgy individuals.But nothing else.
Like the second girl from the right.Clearly Mullata.


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7139/8161814349_5ffa95b382_b.jpg

[Sikeliot]

And someone like this:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5256/5470850463_d7ae1084ee_z.jpg

[Riki]

^
Yeah.But she is mullata

Essa e a judoca?

[Slycooper]

According to the genetic studies I have read it goes. Like from least to most with SSA admixture.

North
Azores
Central
South
Madeira

[Sikeliot]

^
Yeah.But she is mullata

Essa e a judoca?

That's a different girl I posted. Leandra Freitas. I have not seen proof she is anything other than Madeiran.

But my point was that Madeira is the only part of Portugal where I've seen a minor frequency of bizarre phenotypes.

[Damião de Góis]

You're right.. when i look at her all i can think of is slavery and sugar canes:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mr1TSvkfM48/SSW5K6esJpI/AAAAAAAAN3U/GbSW3cIAvBs/s400/Leandra+Freitas.jpg

[Sikeliot]

You're right.. when i look at her all i can think of is slavery and sugar canes:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mr1TSvkfM48/SSW5K6esJpI/AAAAAAAAN3U/GbSW3cIAvBs/s400/Leandra+Freitas.jpg


You honestly think this girl looks fully white? Then you're blind.

http://img0.rtp.pt/icm//thumb/phpThumb.php?src=/noticias/images/f6/f6117a3d995efa1ff519129bb049c5c5&w=385&sx=67&sy=0&sw=285&sh=200&q=75&w=620http://www.record.xl.pt/storage/ng1036228.jpg?type=bighttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FSNJ5Z9U5Bo/SYxhtL2y3LI/AAAAAAAAApQ/_jSHy2A1XBo/s400/leandra1.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

"Fully white"? I'll leave that to you and your portuguese-american cape-verdeans.

[Riki]

That's a different girl I posted. Leandra Freitas. I have not seen proof she is anything other than Madeiran.

But my point was that Madeira is the only part of Portugal where I've seen a minor frequency of bizarre phenotypes.

The proof is in her face.

[Sikeliot]

The proof is in her face.

So you think she has recent black origins (like Cape Verdean) and isn't just an odd looking Madeiran who has some minor black ancestry from the slave trade?

I think if there is a low level of African admixture, some individuals, with the right genetic combination, will show it.

[Slycooper]

Ruben Micael
http://www.allcelebspics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Ruben-Micael.jpg

[Catrau]

According to the genetic studies I have read it goes. Like from least to most with SSA admixture.

North
Azores
Central
South
Madeira

It apparently looks logic but:
- The majority of Sub Saharan input came to work in southern Alentejo during XVIth and XVIIth centuries, it looks like they were segregated and unless the sex abuses they haven't mixed much.

- Some 5000 years ago a huge migration from the region of nowadays Niger came to Europe and one of the groups established in northern Portugal and Galicia. This migration is studied and dated. I sincerely don't trust that author.

[Slycooper]

When Portugal first brought slaves in they were for sale in the Algarve. I don't think many made it to the North. Thats probably why it's higher. Has to be a reason. That or do all the immigrants from the ex colonies move more to the south? But then again. How legitament can these studies be? Do we know for sure they only used Natives for the study? No.

[Damião de Góis]

Sub-Saharan admixture in autosomal studies is always below 1%. Sub-Saharan Y-DNA is also non-existant, so what you have left is mtdna L, which isn't exclusive to Portugal.

As for slaves even being mentioned, what do you think this was.. an interracial porno movie? :rolleyes:

[Slycooper]

Sub-Saharan admixture in autosomal studies is always below 1%. Sub-Saharan Y-DNA is also non-existant, so what you have left is mtdna L, which isn't exclusive to Portugal.

As for slaves even being mentioned, what do you think this was.. an interracial porno movie? :rolleyes:

Yes mtdna L is what I'm talking about. I just don't think it is a coincidence that the places in portugal with the least amount of document slavery. (North, Azores) both having identical % have the the least amount of SSA Admix. While the places that were known to have a large number the south and Madeira are much higher. I've read it his 13% in Madeira and like 8% in the south. Now i'm not trying to say the Portuguese in the south aren't the same. So don't be offended or anything.

[Sikeliot]

I've seen 14.8% mtdna L as the estimate for Madeira but it goes up to 25% in Funchal and almost 0% in Porto Santo.

[Damião de Góis]

Yes mtdna L is what I'm talking about. I just don't think it is a coincidence that the places in portugal with the least amount of document slavery. (North, Azores) both having identical % have the the least amount of SSA Admix. While the places that were known to have a large number the south and Madeira are much higher. I've read it his 13% in Madeira and like 8% in the south. Now i'm not trying to say the Portuguese in the south aren't the same.

So you think this haplogroup only exists due to the presence of slaves? In Spain and Italy as well ?

As for where slavery was present you seem to know this better than me. Where were the places with more slaves? Were they all over the country?

[Slycooper]

So you think this haplogroup only exists due to the presence of slaves? In Spain and Italy as well ?

As for where slavery was present you seem to know this better than me. Where were the places with more slaves? Were they all over the country?

The first slaves were brough into the Algarve in 1444 and sold there. I don't know much about what parts of the country the buyers were from but i'm pretty sure more from the south.

[Catrau]

I've read Alentejo and Lisbon were the main places. In some regions of alentejo the numbers up to 10% of the population. They worked in the farms andin Lisbon they worked as servants

[Damião de Góis]

I've read Alentejo and Lisbon were the main places. In some regions of alentejo the numbers up to 10% of the population. They worked in the farms andin Lisbon they worked as servants

Well according to the american posters here it seems that they were all over, since they are quantified by the maternal haplogroup L:

http://oi45.tinypic.com/i70r2e.jpg

In those times everyone had slaves. Good times...

[Slycooper]

I've read Alentejo and Lisbon were the main places. In some regions of alentejo the numbers up to 10% of the population. They worked in the farms andin Lisbon they worked as servants

I read that at one point Lisbons population was 10% as well.

[Wild North]

From what kind of people are Madeirans descended? When was Madeira discovered, colonized and populated?

[Slycooper]

From what kind of people are Madeirans descended? When was Madeira discovered, colonized and populated?

Madeira was offically discovered uninhabited by the Portuguese in 1418. It was later colonized from 1420-1425 by Portuguese people.

[Rouxinol]

Um texto sobre os escravos na Lisboa joanina: http://www.ghp.ics.uminho.pt/eu/ficheiros%20de%20publica%C3%A7%C3%B5es/OS%20Escravos%20na%20Lisboa%20Joanina%20-%20Delminda%20Rijo.pdf. Os que existiram, poucos em comparação com o total de habitantes, diluiram-se na população lisboeta, certamente, depois da abolição da escravatura, porque pelo menos até à emigração em massa de africanos para Portugal, de Lisboa nunca ouvi relatos sobre pretos ou mulatos na cidade. Os meus pais não são de Lisboa, mas migraram para Lisboa de outros pontos do país e sempre me disseram que não haviam pretos na cidade (bom, para além do Eusébio...) até ao pós-25 de Abril.

[Riki]

Um texto sobre os escravos na Lisboa joanina: http://www.ghp.ics.uminho.pt/eu/ficheiros%20de%20publica%C3%A7%C3%B5es/OS%20Escravos%20na%20Lisboa%20Joanina%20-%20Delminda%20Rijo.pdf. Os que existiram, poucos em comparação com o total de habitantes, diluiram-se na população lisboeta, certamente, depois da abolição da escravatura, porque pelo menos até à emigração em massa de africanos para Portugal, de Lisboa nunca ouvi relatos sobre pretos ou mulatos na cidade. Os meus pais não são de Lisboa, mas migraram para Lisboa de outros pontos do país e sempre me disseram que não haviam pretos na cidade (bom, para além do Eusébio...) até ao pós-25 de Abril.

Essa e a realidade.E os que haviam viviam escondidos com medo.
O Governo quer a forca toda que "Sejamos Multi-culturais",Porque sabem bem que o Povo Português e na sua maioria xenófobo.
Eu quando leio ou ouço que os Portugueses no ano Mil e não sei quantos misturaram-se com os escravos da-me uma vontade de rir do camano.
Os escravos passavam em Portugal para ser vendidos por exemplo;aos Judeus aos Árabes aos Ingleses,aos Franceses,a quem compra-se.
Parte da minha Família são "Retornados". Não trouxeram pretos com eles(Garanto).

[Riki]

I read that at one point Lisbons population was 10% as well.

Still is today.I know I'm a Lisboner.
Here they are.

Cova da Moura.
http://imgs.sapo.pt/gfx/445069.gif

I'm the one with shorts.:rolleyes:

[Catrau]

Well according to the american posters here it seems that they were all over, since they are quantified by the maternal haplogroup L:

http://oi45.tinypic.com/i70r2e.jpg

In those times everyone had slaves. Good times...

What are those numbers? Slaves?
I guess they were all over yes but those numbers are reprentative? I can't understand.

[Damião de Góis]

What are those numbers? Slaves?
I guess they were all over yes but those numbers are reprentative? I can't understand.

No, that's the haplogroup that the american posters here say means slavery. But since it's everywhere, i doubt it.

Also this is a maternal haplogroup, so this would only account for female slaves. Sub saharan paternal haplogroups are pretty much inexistant...

[Slycooper]

What can be the reasoning why it is so much higher in the South and Madeira then?

[Damião de Góis]

What can be the reasoning why it is so much higher in the South and Madeira then?

I have no idea.. but it seems female slavery was very widespread. Even peasants from Zamora had them.

[Sikeliot]

What can be the reasoning why it is so much higher in the South and Madeira then?

It probably occurs naturally in most populations in Southern Europe, but 10%+ of that haplogroup is likely because of slavery. Nothing else could explain a percentage that high. That's higher than in some parts of Latin America that had slavery, like higher than in South America minus Brazil and Colombia, and higher than in Mexico.

[Damião de Góis]

This is ridiculous... show me percentages for sub-saharan Y-DNA then we'll talk about slavery... because i really doubt only women were cutting sugar cane (all over southern Europe). :rolleyes:

[Slycooper]

It could just mean that certain Portuguese in the south have 1 african ancestor. No big deal. That was centuries ago anyways

[Slycooper]

This is ridiculous... show me percentages for sub-saharan Y-DNA then we'll talk about slavery... because i really doubt only women were cutting sugar cane (all over southern Europe). :rolleyes:

Y is 0% so if there was any mixing it was Portuguese males on African females.

[Sikeliot]

This is ridiculous... show me percentages for sub-saharan Y-DNA then we'll talk about slavery... because i really doubt only women were cutting sugar cane (all over southern Europe). :rolleyes:

How is it ridiculous? You think Madeira could get 13% of Mtdna L without slavery? How? If you propose that haplogroup got there from Europe, then it'd mean the settlers would have had to come from those few other pockets where that haplogroup is abnormally high.

[Damião de Góis]

Y is 0% so if there was any mixing it was Portuguese males on African females.

So it means there was heavy mixing all over Spain, Portugal and Italy as well... not counting other European countries that have low percentages of this haplogroup but weren't listed. But whatever, you americans can keep your slavery. I'm done here.

[Sikeliot]

So it means there was heavy mixing all over Spain, Portugal and Italy as well... not counting other European countries that have low percentages of this haplogroup but weren't listed. But whatever, you americans can keep your slavery. I'm done here.

No.. the heavy mixing is in the places with 10%+ of that haplogroup. If it appears throughout Europe in small amounts as it is, it may be much older than the slave trade.. but come on. 10%+ in places known to have slavery? Let's be real here.

[Damião de Góis]

No.. the heavy mixing is in the places with 10%+ of that haplogroup. If it appears throughout Europe in small amounts as it is, it may be much older than the slave trade.. but come on. 10%+ in places known to have slavery? Don't be stupid.

You are you calling stupid...?

[Slycooper]

So it means there was heavy mixing all over Spain, Portugal and Italy as well... not counting other European countries that have low percentages of this haplogroup but weren't listed. But whatever, you americans can keep your slavery. I'm done here.

I was just saying that it's curious how it can reach 10-12% in the south and madeira but 3% in the North and Azores.

[Sikeliot]

You are you calling stupid...?

I edited it. But honestly if you don't think the 10+% frequency of mtdna L in certain places is due to slavery, then I would say that is a clueless and nonsensical position to take.

[Sikeliot]

I was just saying that it's curious how it can reach 10-12% in the south and madeira but 3% in the North and Azores.

Because it is obviously due to slavery.

[Slycooper]

Because it is obviously due to slavery.

My thoughts too. It just means that some southerners have an african ancestor. No big deal since that was centuries ago. Hundred and hundreds of slaves were brought into the algarve. It makes sense.

[Sikeliot]

My thoughts too. It just means that some southerners have an african ancestor. No big deal since that was centuries ago.

But there are also people with African ancestry who didn't get the haplogroup.. say for instance your father has mtdna L as a result of slavery.. you will have the ancestry but not the haplogroup if your mother's mtdna is say, K.

[Slycooper]

But there are also people with African ancestry who didn't get the haplogroup.. say for instance your father has mtdna L as a result of slavery.. you will have the ancestry but not the haplogroup if your mother's mtdna is say, K.

I know only females can give it.

[Damião de Góis]

I edited it. But honestly if you don't think the 10+% frequency of mtdna L in certain places is due to slavery, then I would say that is a clueless and nonsensical position to take.

I already explained my point. But since i'm the stupid one here, and not others posting from America who think Madeira was created as a slave island and have no fucking clue about the History of my country... then i'll explain again:

It's not possible to make a direct link between this haplogroup and slavery since it exists in places where there was no slavery, like in northern Spain or remote areas of northern Portugal. If you knew a little you would know slavery was reduced to very few areas. But according to your theory it seems it was all over, even in places that it doesn't make any sense.

Now, if you americans are so obsessed with slavery then carry on discussing it. It's me that don't know anything about this it seems...

[Slycooper]

I already explained my point. But since i'm the stupid one here, and not others posting from America who think Madeira was created as a slave island and have no fucking clue about the History of my country... then i'll explain again:

It's not possible to make a direct link between this haplogroup and slavery since it exists in places where there was no slavery, like in northern Spain or remote areas of northern Portugal. If you knew a little you would know slavery was reduced to very few areas. But according to your theory it seems it was all over, even in places that it doesn't make any sense.

Now, if you americans are so obsessed with slavery then carry on discussing it. It's me that don't know anything about this it seems...

It could possibly be from something that is not slavery. Who really knows?. But don't you find it to be a little curious that the places where we brought slaves in has the most SSA admixture?

[Damião de Góis]

It could possibly be from something that is not slavery? Who really knows. But don't you find it to be a little curious that the places where we brought slaves in has the most SSA admixture?

How are you counting SSA admixture? With this haplogroup...? Because according to autosomal runs i've seen SSA admixture is below 1%. There is north african admixture in west iberia... but proper sub-saharan?

[Sikeliot]

It exists in places without slavery.. at a minimum amount. But it exists in high amounts in places that have slavery. Thus you can figure that the haplogroup has a small, ancient presence in many areas but where it appears most frequently, is because of slavery.

[SKYNET]

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11663682/1024/Anonymous/8166563327-68fd7ddc24-b.jpg

[Slycooper]

How are you counting SSA admixture? With this haplogroup...? Because according to autosomal runs i've seen SSA admixture is below 1%. There is north african admixture in west iberia... but proper sub-saharan?

Yes I am talking about the haplogroup. In Madeira it reaches 13%. Thats well above european average. So is 3% actually.

[Damião de Góis]

Gonzalez et al. (2003) revealed that most of the L lineages in Iberia matched Northwest African L lineages rather than contemporary Sub-Saharan L lineages. The authors suggest this pattern indicates that most of the Sub-Saharan L lineages entered Iberia in prehistoric times rather than during the slave trade.

But disregard this... slavery is the way.

[Sikeliot]

Let's see the ones in Madeira, because I don't see how they could have such a high amount of that haplogroup otherwise not to mention that up to 10% of the island was once Senegambian slaves.

[Damião de Góis]

Whatever makes you happy...

[Riki]

I edited it. But honestly if you don't think the 10+% frequency of mtdna L in certain places is due to slavery, then I would say that is a clueless and nonsensical position to take.


No,it's because of People like you.

Meta-Ethnicity: Celtic-Romance, Helleno-Romance, Slavic, West African
Ethnicity: Italian, Portuguese, Polish
Subrace: East Med
Country: United States
Region: Sicily
Gender:

[Sikeliot]

No,it's because of People like you.

Meta-Ethnicity: Celtic-Romance, Helleno-Romance, Slavic, West African
Ethnicity: Italian, Portuguese, Polish
Subrace: East Med
Country: United States
Region: Sicily
Gender:

Your point?

[Slycooper]

No,it's because of People like you.

Meta-Ethnicity: Celtic-Romance, Helleno-Romance, Slavic, West African
Ethnicity: Italian, Portuguese, Polish
Subrace: East Med
Country: United States
Region: Sicily
Gender:

What does any of that have to do with his opinion? By the way he is Portuguese too.

[Riki]

But disregard this... slavery is the way.



Gonzalez et al. (2003) revealed that most of the L lineages in Iberia matched Northwest African L lineages rather than contemporary Sub-Saharan L lineages. The authors suggest this pattern indicates that most of the Sub-Saharan L lineages entered Iberia in prehistoric times rather than during the slave trade.


This is known for a long time.
The proof that one only sees what one wants to see.

[Sikeliot]

What does any of that have to do with his opinion? By the way he is Portuguese too.

It's my fucking opinion and if they can't deal with it then they can deal with it.. I say what I want, whenever I want, and in this case I am correct.. slavery existed in Madeira, people from there have Senegambian ancestry in minor amounts and it likely contributed to the high frequency of haplogroup L that is unmatched by anywhere else in Europe except Alcacer do Sal.

[Riki]

Your point?

lê nas as entre linhas.

[Sikeliot]

Me being American doesn't mean that I don't know a thing or two about the slave trade and the history.

[Damião de Góis]

Me being American doesn't mean that I don't know a thing or two about the slave trade and the history.

Are you kiding me? You have been for years spreading on these forums that Madeira was created as a slave island. Ever been to Madeira !?

[Sikeliot]

Are you kiding me? You have been for years spreading on these forums that Madeira was created as a slave island. Ever been to Madeira !?

Why would I need to go there to be able to say that the island had a, at one point, large number of slaves that worked on sugar plantations? It's the truth. And it shows up in their genetics, and the occasional person's appearance.

And you know, I have relatives from that side of my family who don't even look purely white.. and they're not the ones mixed with Cape Verdean.

[Damião de Góis]

Why would I need to go there to be able to say that the island had a, at one point, large number of slaves that worked on sugar plantations? It's the truth. And it shows up in their genetics, and the occasional person's appearance.

How would the hypotetical descendant of a slave from the 1600s show on a persons appearance? If some look mixed it's because of recent immigration...


And you know, I have relatives from that side of my family who don't even look purely white.. and they're not the ones mixed with Cape Verdean.

This is not about your family, it's about Madeira and madeirans.

[Slycooper]

The population of Madeira is majority native Portuguese. But the fact that that 13% of the mtdna linegaes come from L. This is consisten with the fact that by the 16th century 10% of the population of Madeira were slaves. 10% for an island is big.
Madeira was not supposed to have so much slaves. It was discovered in 1418 and Slavery in Portugal did not happen until 1444.
But since the population of Portugal was so small. They sent Slaves to help with the sugar.

[Riki]

The population of Madeira is majority native Portuguese. But the fact that that 13% of the mtdna linegaes come from L. This is consisten with the fact that by the 16th century 10% of the population of Madeira were slaves. 10% for an island is big.
Madeira was not supposed to have so much slaves. It was discovered in 1418 and Slavery in Portugal did not happen until 1444.
But since the population of Portugal was so small. They sent Slaves to help with the sugar.

Not to help.
To work.And more then half, would die before they could even reach puberty.

[Damião de Góis]

The population of Madeira is majority native Portuguese. But the fact that that 13% of the mtdna linegaes come from L. This is consisten with the fact that by the 16th century 10% of the population of Madeira were slaves. 10% for an island is big.
Madeira was not supposed to have so much slaves. It was discovered in 1418 and Slavery in Portugal did not happen until 1444.
But since the population of Portugal was so small. They sent Slaves to help with the sugar.

I already mentioned what people wrote about L in Iberia... but is there anything else you want to lecture me about my own country while you're at it? I'm all ears.

[Sikeliot]

I already mentioned what people wrote about L in Iberia... but is there anything else you want to lecture me about my own country while you're at it? I'm all ears.

Just because you're from there doesn't make you the absolute authority on history. You weren't any more alive during the slave trade than we were.

[Slycooper]

I already mentioned what people wrote about L in Iberia... but is there anything else you want to lecture me about my own country while you're at it? I'm all ears.

I'm not talking about Iberia though. That was on Madeira. As for Iberia I read what you posted. I don't know for sure nobody does. But you can't just completley throw that arguement out the window.

[Sikeliot]

I mean it is possible my great grandmother from Madeira could too have had Cape Verdean ancestry considering her own brother and his children (her nieces/nephews) were frequently mistaken for being black/mixed.

[Damião de Góis]

Just because you're from there doesn't make you the absolute authority on history. You weren't any more alive during the slave trade than we were.

It makes me a little bit more qualified i would say. But that's just my opinion...

[Sikeliot]

It makes me a little bit more qualified i would say. But that's just my opinion...


I actually disagree, since I think it makes you more biased, since you're less removed from the situation at hand and have more reason to want things to be a specific way.

[Damião de Góis]

I actually disagree, since I think it makes you more biased, since you're less removed from the situation at hand and have more reason to want things to be a specific way.

So you think you and your american friend know more about Portugal than me or other portuguese posters? Ok...

[Sikeliot]

So you think you and your american friend know more about Portugal than me or other portuguese posters? Ok...

He's Canadian, and no. But I think you're wrong in this specific instance and I don't see how having been born in Portugal 500 years after the slave trade makes you any more qualified to discuss it than us.

[Slycooper]

So you think you and your american friend know more about Portugal than me or other portuguese posters? Ok...

Everything you learn about Portuguese history is also accessible in other countries as well. You don't have to be born in Portugal to know it's history. I never said I knew more about Portuguese history than you or the other portuguese posters...

[Ausência Forçada]

Always the same, the confused "without identity" colonials, with their hilarious and non-sense certainties on myths. Looking for haplogroups on 10 years studies, some of them with agenda, just like they did on Sado (alcacer do sal) where they colected samples of individuals with non-native portuguese heritage, but a from a small number of people (10, 15, 20) forced inbreeding in one village from 19 century migration into the fields... and then they can say that ENTIRE south Portugal had 10% of this or that.:picard2: its funny. especially for those who dont have the slightest notion of how Portugal was the past centuries, Portugal never had in any moment of their history ("prior to 25 april") a large population of free sub-saharan's slaves, never. You see historical records, of the slave's market in Lisbon, just like you had in Amesterdam, Sevillhe, Bristol, etc....
Y haplo you had zero so called ss markers in Portugal, autossomal dna you had 0--1%. Mtdna you had illogical conclusions on pseudo ss markers, in relation to strains some L markers that have been found in all Europe, including Norway, Poland, Czech Republic, Italy, France, Russia, that reveal a very ancient origin (possibly north africanorarabid). You even had a study where they defined M1 (mtdna) as a ss marker, :picard1: M1 its euro-asian marker.

[Rouxinol]

Well, such studies are rather easy to manipulate and bias towards the point the investigator believes to be the truth and wants to prove. It's just a matter of not randomly select the specimens or including non-fully ethnic Portuguese people on it. I won't believe a single one of them until a full description of the methods used, how the samples were selected and other details are presented to me. We know that the political correct establishment wants us to believe in their multiracial propaganda in order to make us accept their agenda more easily.

[Sikeliot]

I'd like to see a comprehensive DNA study on the regions of Europe with the 10%+ mtdna L. If it comes back that autosomal SSA ancestry is still minimal, I will admit I am wrong.

[Ausência Forçada]

Yes I am talking about the haplogroup. In Madeira it reaches 13%. Thats well above european average. So is 3% actually.

So dear colonial, have you ever questioned to yourself, where did they get the samples? if it was in curral das freiras or in the rest of the Island, or you just simply dont know that an haplotype gives you a lineage, not admixture (just like eurogenes) some of the L (mtdna) markers have north african exposure and origin.

[Ausência Forçada]

I'd like to see a comprehensive DNA study on the regions of Europe with the 10%+ mtdna L. If it comes back that autosomal SSA ancestry is still minimal, I will admit I am wrong.

The same kind of studies that said that Alentejo had 20% of mtdna ss and in autosssomal dna portuguese from alentejo had pratically none?
If you had two fingers of forehead, you had already noticed that autosomal DNA samples made ​​in portuguese from pratically all regions none gave significant amounts of ss exposion, look even from Alentejo, or Algarve those ss regions that had millions of slaves since 1444:picard1: and suddenly they all disappeared... people like you do not understand that if it ever happened, would Portugal would have to be large groups of the population with traits markedly non-europid, but this just does not happen neither phenotypically nor genetically.

[Gaijin]

Just because you're from there doesn't make you the absolute authority on history. You weren't any more alive during the slave trade than we were.

Well, I'm from Madeira. You can check out my IP address for clearance that I am indeed posting this entry, from the given pin point.
So yes, I think I'm qualified enough and have the authority to post, considering that I live here.
I think I know more about it's history and the people who live here, than anyone in this thread.


I've seen 14.8% mtdna L as the estimate for Madeira but it goes up to 25% in Funchal and almost 0% in Porto Santo.

I have no idea where did you picked up those percentages, please refrain your post with a back up supplement.
Because you either made up those numbers, or that's a due to recent immigration.
The highest you'll ever get is hardly 13%, and it's not concentrated in Funchal, but in independent villages, such as Curral das Freiras, where camps were set to harvest.

As Alex said, it's only mtDNA, which means it has nothing to do with slavery.
The slaves themselves were castrated and those who earned emancipation, died off due to lack of survival skills and poor treatment...this explains why the Y-DNA is accounted to be 0.0%.
Either way, the mtDNA hardly accounts for the whole population, considering that it's only found in isolated areas.


I actually disagree, since I think it makes you more biased, since you're less removed from the situation at hand and have more reason to want things to be a specific way.

I think you should a place a mirror in front of you.
Having browsed the internet, you demonstrated this reason to want things to be a specific way, with constant diaries that Madeirenses look like Cape Verdeans.
You and only yourself, have been bashing the Madeirenses, for years. This is observable in your prior posts, not only in Apricity, but in other forums under the alias of "Clementia".

As for Leandra Rodrigues...She is atypical.
I have no idea why would you picked her up, for a template...That's like using Obama, and saying everyone in USA looks like him.

I did my best to use videos of crowds, instead of pictures of individuals to prevent observations of single subjects, but apparently, I still am the one to be accused of going cherry picking...

There's people like her in England, Germany, France, etc. you name it...
You want me to pick up an individual like her and accuse the whole population, of such countries, to have the same exact phenotype as her, even though she's just an individual?

You are from America...
Obama is a mulatto, therefore we shall all conclude that all Americans are mulattoes. Don't you think?

PS: You should come and visit the island someday. Lots of people do it every year round.
I grantee you'd be culture shocked. Nothing like you imagined.

NOTE: Portugal suggests haplogroup L, because the National Census does not define races within the country, which means anyone is Portuguese with a paper, and thus, anyone with Portuguese citizenship can take a genetic test, independently of it's background.
Which is why some places, the haplogroup L is found, whereas in other places is not (example Alcaçer do Sal), either a Portuguese under Jus Sanguinis or a descendant of an immigrant who aquired Portuguese citizenship under Jus Solis.

[Slycooper]

So dear colonial, have you ever questioned to yourself, where did they get the samples? if it was in curral das freiras or in the rest of the Island, or you just simply dont know that an haplotype gives you a lineage, not admixture (just like eurogenes) some of the L (mtdna) markers have north african exposure and origin.

Yes I have wondered where they got the samples from and why are you calling me a colonial? I even said earlier that we can't be sure if they used natives or not. In alcar do sal it goes up to 22% but thats irrelevant since that was an isolated village with slaves.

[Sikeliot]

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-003-1024-3

13% mtdna L with another couple percents of another lineage that they determined to be Sub-Saharan African.. amounting to 14.8% total. I believe that is the study that says that up to 25% of the lineages in Funchal were L.

[Gaijin]

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-003-1024-3

13% mtdna L with another couple percents of another lineage that they determined to be Sub-Saharan African.. amounting to 14.8% total. I believe that is the study that says that up to 25% of the lineages in Funchal were L.

It only states about 13%, again no reference to Funchal.

[Slycooper]

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-003-1024-3

13% mtdna L with another couple percents of another lineage that they determined to be Sub-Saharan African.. amounting to 14.8% total. I believe that is the study that says that up to 25% of the lineages in Funchal were L.

Like you said the L comes from africans not Portuguese.

[Sikeliot]

Like you said the L comes from africans not Portuguese.

Yes. And I don't know why anyone would deny that. It's very possible that the odd looking Madeirans I point out are like Cristiano Ronaldo and have recent CV ancestry and that the mtdna L has nothing to do with it, and having that haplogroup DOES NOT make a Madeiran any less Portuguese or change the fact that 99% of the people on that island obviously look like the rest of their countrymen.

[Atlantic Islander]

///

[Riki]

I mean it is possible my great grandmother from Madeira could too have had Cape Verdean ancestry considering her own brother and his children (her nieces/nephews) were frequently mistaken for being black/mixed.


Sera que não entendes que Famílias como a tua, são produto dos Portugueses e não o contrario.

[Anthropologique]

@ Food

LMAO... What planet are you from?

[Anthropologique]

Yes. And I don't know why anyone would deny that. It's very possible that the odd looking Madeirans I point out are like Cristiano Ronaldo and have recent CV ancestry and that the mtdna L has nothing to do with it, and having that haplogroup DOES NOT make a Madeiran any less Portuguese or change the fact that 99% of the people on that island obviously look like the rest of their countrymen.

The autosomal metrics provide the true picture.

[Slycooper]

obv^ but the L is higher there due to it's settlement history.

[Anthropologique]

Yes. And I don't know why anyone would deny that. It's very possible that the odd looking Madeirans I point out are like Cristiano Ronaldo and have recent CV ancestry and that the mtdna L has nothing to do with it, and having that haplogroup DOES NOT make a Madeiran any less Portuguese or change the fact that 99% of the people on that island obviously look like the rest of their countrymen.

I think that some of the mixed Madeirans I've seen in the U.S. may actually be the result of mixed marriage in the U.S. I know one American who's maternal grandfather married a Puerto Rican and he claimed to be Madeiran-Portuguese. He looked uber-mulatto.

[Atlantic Islander]

Nuno Teixeira (PSD Madeira politician)

http://www.dnoticias.pt/sites/default/files/imagecache/body_300/nuno_teixeira.jpg

To those who expect to see mulattoes, ethnic Portuguese Madeirans look like mainlanders so if you are expecting them to look like lighter versions of Cape Verdeans you will be disappointed.

And he looks a lot like this Azorean Politician (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?67955-Classify-Duarte-Freitas&highlight=duarte+freitas). :)

[Atlantic Islander]

Bárbara Franco

http://imageshack.us/a/img853/7713/kb7c.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img822/413/sl8f.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img96/6921/ozs7.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img825/834/v498.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img832/2854/tvrv.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img33/2114/y29t.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img22/92/46l3.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img708/7544/lmma.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img836/5483/72kq.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img24/9885/6kc4.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img855/7457/6boy.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img153/4109/ll69.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img837/1857/b70c.jpg

[Atlantic Islander]

http://imageshack.us/a/img801/2748/xg80.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img600/2411/zxaa.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img842/2470/jf2z.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img12/4471/z499.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img42/941/38ii.jpg

[Etelfrido]

Were the settlers of the island provenient from specific regions or from all over the country?